Alex Hormozi: How To Make So Much Money You Question The Meaning Of It

You can build something very big in. about 5 to seven years. And the problem. is most people spend that same 5 to. seven years reliving the same 30 days. over and over again. You have to stay in. that painful place. Staying in the pain. is what gives you the catalyst to learn. how to get out of pain. >> Please welcome a serial entrepreneur, best-selling author, and the mind behind. a 100 million business portfolio, Alex. Hormosi. What's that number one misconception you. hear when people are thinking about.

building a business and you go that's. the issue? >> I think they conflate sequence. A lot of. people who are wanting to make money. believe that the making money comes from. investing. Investing is the last thing. you do, not the first thing you do. >> How do you get over the block of I don't. want to work for free? >> I actually think it's entitlement. You're not working for free. You're. learning and then you're earning. >> Should you do what you love for money. and love what you do? >> I think this is big myth number two. People fail not because there's some. magical list nobody has. They fail.

because it's an obvious list nobody. does. >> It's the obvious list. If you were. trying to get in shape, you know you. should eat less and you should move. more. You already know what you're. supposed to do. The question is why you. aren't doing it. >> What do you think is the number one. emotion that people don't know how to. control that leads to failure? >> Fear. >> The number one health and wellness. podcast. >> J Shetty. >> J Shetty. the one, the only J Shetty. >> Alexi, I've been looking forward to this.

interview for a long, long time. My. friends are fans. I'm a fan. And I know. we were in touch like maybe even a. couple of years ago now it's been, >> but I'm so happy to be at the holy grail. of acquisition.com. I saw the big logo. when I walked in. Congratulations on. everything you've been up to and I'm so. glad to introduce you to my audience, some of who I'm sure follow you already. and love your work. And then I'm hoping. you get a ton of new fans and a ton of. new people being impacted through this. as well. So, thank you so much for doing.

this. >> Well, thank you so much for having me. and I've been I'd say I mirror it right. back. We've been I've been looking. forward to talking because I think. there's there's so much good stuff that. I think is going to happen. So, I'm very. excited. >> I love it. Alex, I want to start with. asking you something that I've been. thinking about a lot when I'm talking to. people today and it's when I think about. my community, my audience who's. listening right now. >> What are you going to unblock for them? >> When you if someone read all your books, listen to your podcast, listen to. today's podcast, what are they going to. unblock that's been tripping them up,

keeping them behind or holding them. back? I think they would have clarity on. what actions were required to get what. they wanted and then at that point they. would only have to just think like why. am I not doing it which is a separate. conversation but there's a lot of. confusion I would say around like what. are the things that are required in. order to create a business in order to. create an income I would say that I'm an. objectivist and so I just look at what. are the things that are observable and I. think a lot of time people spend inside. their heads trying to think about.

manifesting and energy and all of this. stuff when it's like we got to let. people know about the stuff we have. We. got to have something to sell and we got. to make sure that what we're charging. costs less than than it costs to deliver. it. And we try and do that as many times. as we can. And so each of those pieces. obviously has frameworks behind them. But they're all tied to one thing which. is just what actions are required. And. that's been the single pervasive frame. in my life that has made navigating. reality significantly easier for me cuz. I was very confused coming up and I was. like, I don't know what any of this is. and I read all these self-help books and.

and I felt more confused after the 10th. book than I did on the first book and. and then it was just like okay what do I. have to do and then that is kind of what. has started this journey for me. >> What's that number one misconception you. hear when people are thinking about. building a business making money. changing their financial situation? What's the number one thing you hear and. you go that's the issue? I think the. conflate sequence is probably the first. and biggest thing because a lot of. people who are wanting to make money. believe that the making money comes from. investing and investing is the last.

thing you do, not the first thing you. do. And so one of the things is they'll. look at people who are at the end of. their careers and say, "Okay, well these. guys are making all these, you know, these bets, right? I if I if I just. bought this memecoin or I just bought. Bitcoin in 2013, I'd be super rich." But. it actually doesn't take into. consideration what a decision-making. process like that would create, which is. if you took a swing at every type of. Bitcoin, because you can't just say, "I. would only pick this one." You'd have to. say, "I'd pick every single super long. shot." It's like we probably would have. lost them 99 of the other bets. >> And so it's like we have to take it in. aggregate. And so I would say making.

active income cool again uh rather than. the passive bet and really just gambling. um is probably the the first thing that. that people mess up is that they're they. somehow think that working or active. income is not scalable when in reality. the people who have the most money. typically have tremendously high incomes. and it's because of the excess of cash. flow from that income are they able now. to make big swings with riskier bets. that sometimes pay off and sometimes. don't. But you can't take those swings. unless you have more cash flows coming. in from the things you do every day.

>> You know what? No one's ever said it. that well, like from everyone I've. spoken to. And I'm so glad you pointed. it out because I completely agree. I. have so many friends who when they saw. the rise of crypto or whatever it was, jumped in with a large sum of their life. savings. >> because they heard of a friend of a. friend of a friend who'd made a killing. >> Put it all in there. A week later it. dropped by like 10k. They pulled it all. out. The next week it went up double.

like and and it was just a mess. And so. many of them lost like 10 20 30 40,000. dollars. >> And it's all because you're thinking. that's the way to get there. >> and it's cooler and it's smarter and. like you're a genius. >> if you And you're right. Actually, everyone I know that's made amazing. money on any of that already had tons of. money and it was play money for them. Yeah. So it just changed into this. So. what's happening there? Why is it that. we've been led down this thought process. and how do we get out of it?

>> I mean I think it's fundamentally the. something for nothing fallacy of like. how can I get rich quick? How can I do. it really easily? And um basically the. more it feels like luck is usually where. you should have your first red flag. If. you I mean I have a belief that if you. control all the variables then you can. predict the outcome. Now, we don't. always control all the variables in any. given situation, but the greater number. of variables we control, the greater. influence we have over the outcome. And. if you're getting into something like. this and you're like, I actually don't. even know what the variables are. Then. it's like, you are you are 100%. gambling. And so, this is your life. savings. Would you put it on black at.

the casino? Probably not. This is really. not that different than that. Except at. the casino, you have no nods at least. right here. It's like you have no idea. And typically by the time especially. Genpop uh kind of retail investors find. out about something it is the peak and. it is too late. And so you have to be at. the very beginning of these if you want. to be speculative, which I. wholeheartedly am not a big fan of. speculative investments in general. because it's basically the greater fool. theory, which is what they call it in. the investment world, which is just like. we just keep selling to the greater and.

greater fool until sometime somebody is. the greatest fool of all and then it. drops, right? And so I prefer to think. about instead of thinking of investments. and active income, I think of just money. per unit of time. And that kind of takes. out this binary or what I would consider. a false binary of active and passive and. think well and I I I feel like I can. prove this pretty clearly which is we. live in time and we collect money in. that period of time. And so. fundamentally all we want to do if we. want to increase our income is just. think what are we earning per unit and. this is where again bad piece of advice.

is like never sell your time. It's like. okay well if someone gave you a billion. dollars for an hour would you not sell. that? I would, right? And so, it's a. question of how much is your time worth? And then that creates a much more. actionable uh decision-making framework. of is this worth it or not? And to lad. up to the active versus passive, it's. how active is it versus how passive is. it? And it's my belief that nothing is. passive because there's always going to. be a certain amount of if you're doing. it right. Let's say if you you made one. passive investment, if you're doing it.

the right way, you probably should have. looked at a hundred deals and all of. that took time. And all of that takes. diligence. And then after doing all this. analysis, then you decide to make this. investment. And so to say that it's. passive, it's like it doesn't take into. account all of the research that goes. into ahead of time, which is absolutely. still work. Now after the investment, sure, but there's still time that you're. trading by first breaking that idea of. like if for in order for me to get rich, it must be something that I don't trade. my time for, I think is like big myth. number one. So if we assume that, then. we say, okay, I have to trade my time.

for money because money comes in over. time. what are the things that I can. trade my time for that will get me more. than I'm currently getting which is a. much more solvable problem that also is. significantly less risky and so. especially when you're trading time we. have some and so we don't we really just. risk the time to be like I would I never. want to I don't want to sell my I'm not. a I'm not a slave it's like calm down. we're it's a voluntary exchange and if. it's and here's the thing is if you. don't think the price is worth it then. don't make the trade and that's one of. the beauties of capitalism is it's two. parties both saying they'll be better. off and so fundamentally I would say the.

focus of the the content the stuff that. I put out is how can I equip people with. the skills so that when they trade that. time they get more for it and then. continue to trade up and up and up for. the rest of their careers. >> Yeah. I mean that is that's actually. such counterintuitive advice to what I. feel has been spreading on the internet. for the last two decades. >> of every conversations around passive. income. I feel like every one of my. friends is addicted to figuring out how. they can make passive income and those. are the same people that are not making.

>> any more money than they already were. But it's this addiction and obsession. with if I figure this out then I won't. have I can quit my day job and whatever. it may be. >> Yeah. And I I've had influence so the my. neighbor is um is he owns uh Panda. Express and so last time I checked they. did $3.7 billion in revenue and they. have about a 27% net margin. So he took. home $935 million in personal income not. investment income. And so people see his. investment portfolio which is impressive.

as you can imagine. has been doing it. for 45 years and so that starts to add. up, right? >> But the thing is he can only take these. kind of bigger swings or bigger bets. because he has this very regular cash. that he spent 45 years building. >> And I would say that what's interesting. is that you can build something very big. in about 5 to seven years. And the. problem is that I think most people. spend that same 5 to seven years. reliving the same 30 days over and over. again jumping from thing to thing to. thing and never actually getting the. root set so that they can pay down their.

ignorance tax of not knowing enough. Basically there's I would say there's. five stages that most newer. entrepreneurs or people who want to. pursue income go through. So the first. is um what I call uninformed optimism. So your friend tells you about this. thing they made 10 grand on and you're. like that sounds amazing. you're. uninformed, but you're optimistic, right? And so then you get into it and. then all of a sudden you get to uh. informed pessimism. So you get in and. then you put your money in and then it. drops and you're like, "Wow, this. sucks." And then, you know, people are. like, "Buy the dip." And so you're like, "Okay, I'm going to I'm going to put.

more money in." And so then you get to. kind of stage three, which is the value. of despair, where you're like, "Oh my. god, I've lost so much money. I have no. idea what's what's going on right now.". And at stage three, there's kind of a. fork. And so either people then go, "Well, my other friend told me about. this other thing." and they jump back to. step one and go to uninformed optimism. and then they just they funnel through. that loop over and over again. Now to. break through that that dip you have to. basically get to stage four which is um. informed optimism. So now you understand. the rules of the game, you understand. the variables at play and it's not as.

good as you thought it was but you at. least get it. And so from there then you. can get to achievement which is the. fifth step. But the thing is is that you. have to stay in that third painful place. because staying in the pain is what. gives you the catalyst to learn how to. get out of pain. And so rather than. trying to pull your parachute, it's like. I have to trudge through this so that it. forces me to learn the individual. skills, the individual variables that. affect this outcome. And that means I. might have to take 20 more lashings to. finally get it. And then at that point,

it starts to tick up. And then that's. when you start to become more of an. expert, more of a master at something. >> Yeah. And if you don't sit in that pain, you're going to keep repeating that. cycle with something new. So it was. crypto, then it was NFTs, then it was. whatever else just keeps going round and. round and round. Is that system in this. new book? >> So this is probably for one chunk above. that. >> Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. No, cuz I was um I love the way you. break down the journey that we go. through in our mind and you do that with. multiple things because I think we don't. even see it. >> Like that pattern you just explained is.

a pattern you could live for three. decades. You've just saved people three. decades of pain by pointing it out and. saying, "Well, this is what you're. doing." Yeah. >> And here's how to shift that. And I. think people make the mistake where we. go, I don't have time to learn, >> right? >> So, I'm going to learn from someone who. makes me feel like I can learn it in an. hour. >> Yeah. >> And then I'm going to do it, which still. is uninformed optimism. So, how do we. learn? Where do we go? How do you build. that time to say, "How many hours do I. need to even learn about this? I'm going.

to put money in it." How would you. calculate that? If someone was like, I'm. going to put in a,000. I'm going to put. in a $10,000. How much time should they. put to value that amount of money? >> So, great question. I would reframe the. premise, which would be we we'd still be. operating under this as I'm going to put. money into something. And so, I would. reject the original premise and say, well, if you want to get really good at. something, then why don't we start with. skills that generate income? And so, if. we follow kind of the the three elements. of a business at its most basic form is. you have some element of promotion. So.

we got to let people know about our. stuff. The second element is we got to. have a way to convert them. So we have. to be able to sell some sort of exchange. mechanism. And then finally, we have to. deliver, right? So track, convert, deliver. Very easy. Um well, easy to. easy to say, hard to do, right? Within. each of those things, it's like, okay, well, how do I let people know about my. stuff? Or even before that, what stuff. do I sell? Right? And so that's where I. like to think about it as people try to. think, man, there's so many people and. and try to boil the ocean. like it's. impossible to try and like try and think.

what business could I possibly start. because you're trying to address the. world when it's much easier to say what. are the problems that exist in my life. and I kind of think of it as the three. Ps like most businesses come out of a. passion so something that you're just. inherently interested in they come out. of a profession so you currently. exchange right now you have a job. whatever it is and you get paid maybe. not as much as you want but you do get. paid uh for exchanging some sort of. value with the business and then the. third is P which is pain right so. there's some deep pain that sometimes. you went through. So maybe it's a mom. who had to figure out how to um create.

non-allergenic food for their kids, right? It's it would be something as. small as that. And so from that those. three kind of uh buckets is I think the. best starting point for most people who. want to start making an income. It's. like okay well if you're inherently. interested in this topic it's like can. we make can we let people know about. stuff around that topic? Can we create. solutions around that stuff? Can we. create services which is where I prefer. most people start which to be fair in. the United States 78% of businesses are. service based businesses. And I think. it's because they're the easiest to. start. You just trade time for money. Very low risk,

>> right? You either get richer or you. don't. But like your your base your base. is zero. When you have a superior money. model, it gives you padding to be bad at. everything else. >> because you finally make more money per. customer than anyone else does in your. space, which means your advertising. doesn't have to be as good. You don't. have to be as good at sales. The offer. itself might not necessarily be as good. But when you sequence these things. together properly the right way, then. you can unlock skill in the business. People don't really give up on their. dreams. They see what it takes to get. their dreams and then decide it's too. expensive. I think that if we make who. we become the goal.

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want to know now. >> Yeah. The reason why I ask it is because. >> I've been thinking about this for so. long and I want to go through each of. those because I think they're really I. think it's really sound advice. I used to really believe that everyone. should try to do what they love. >> and love what they do. >> Yeah. >> And I've changed my mind about that. >> And I used to believe it very strongly. probably like 10 years ago. >> Mhm. >> Only to then realize that that works.

great for the 1 to 10%. >> Yeah. >> But for the majority of people that's. going to be really really hard. >> Mhm. And recently I was giving the. Princeton commencement speech for their. graduation. >> and I was thinking about it a lot before. I gave that speech because I was like. wait a minute these are like. >> the most talented, >> smartest people in the country who have. everything at their disposal. And I know. that even some of these people may not. get a job they love. >> or may never ever build something they. love. But guess what? Everyone needs.

money to survive. Yeah. >> So the question is and I want to hear. your take on it and I'll reflect back is. should you do what you love for money. and love what you do? >> I think this is big myth number two. So. if we have we start with you know. passive versus active is big problem. number one. Um number two is follow your. passion. I think the reason that this is. so espoused I'll start where I think the. idea comes from and then kind of break. down from there. I think it's because. most of those commitment speeches are. billionaires or very successful people. and they say follow your passion. But if.

we think through what other advice could. they give that would be socially. acceptable. They can't say you know I. got lucky. They can't say um I worked. you know super hard cuz people were like. sure you know like and so then it's like. okay well they're never going to get. attacked for saying follow your passion. But the problem with that is it also. assumes that your passion or your. interest will never change. >> And I mean anybody who's listening to. this just think about what you were. really interested in 10 years ago. It's. probably different than it is now. And. if you extrapolate that another 10. years, it'll probably be different.

again. And so if we can think about the. hypothetical extreme of a really. successful person is someone who sticks. with the same thing for an extended. period of time, which is something that. I believe because you learn all the. lessons you possibly can in a very. narrow field, right? And that you. basically try and make as many mistakes. as you can. And if you basically, you. know, pay off all the all the ignorance. debt you can, it's like you end up just. succeeding by default if you just fail. every other way. But if you try and if. you try and do too many things, you. never actually get to to push the road. all the way, you know? trudge through. the mud and get there because you're. only learning one or two mistakes in.

many fields and not many in one. >> Yeah. >> And so the follow your passion issue is. that yeah, number one, the the passions. will change. Number two is that. sometimes you're passionate about things. that people don't value. And the thing. is is there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that it'll be very hard to. make an income that way. >> The third thing is that I think that it. creates an emotionality around business. or income, which is that the moment it. doesn't feel good that you believe the. myth that you should stop. >> When I think that Oh, >> good. you if you and I were to talk. about you know the business side of. anything there are elements that I love.

and there are elements that I hate and I. see them as both required you know I. would love to maximize one versus the. other but it's just the cost of doing. business literally but I try to reframe. that pain that comes from doing the. things that I don't want to do to do the. things that I do want to do as the price. tag required to become the person that I. want to become and so if we think about. the traits of any person so it's like if. I want to be patient, then I can't. expect things to happen faster, right? Like, if we were to go to the end of our.

lives and say, "Hey, I want these. character traits." It's like, well, if. you had to play a character, you know, in a video game and make them that way, it's like, well, what would you have to. put them through in order to get those. traits? It's like, well, if you want. patience, then you're not going to get. things quickly. If you want to have. endurance, it's like you have to be able. to tolerate suffering, right? If you uh. if you want to be wise, it's like you're. going to have to get burnt and you're. going to have to learn the value of. judgment. And sometimes that means. you're going to get betrayed in order to. learn that pattern. And so it's like we. we lament the price tag for the things. that we want. And I think that at least.

for me, my ultimate, you know, long-term. goal is just to become the person that I. the best version of me, right? And I. think that in order for that to happen, I will have to go through pain. And so. the follow your passion, you know, moniker also creates this emotionality. that gets you to quit when you really. are on the right path. And it's just. this is just part of it. And so I think. those are probably the big three um that. I think about when it comes to why. follow your passion doesn't serve most. people. And the other I'll say bonus. fourth might be that you might be really. good at something and people are very.

willing to exchange money for that thing. and it doesn't mean that you actually. have to do the thing that you work on. that you make money on all the hours of. the day, >> right? Like you can work for 20 or 30. hours a week and then have the other 120. to do whatever you want, 130 to do. whatever you want. Um, and that's I mean. not a bad not a bad thing in my opinion. >> Yeah, I I'm that's that's the reason I. asked it. And I think even the advice. follow your passion doesn't mean focus. on your passion, right? Like there's. this confusion with like time. So even.

when I think about it in my life. >> when I left the monastery and went to. work as a consultant because I needed to. pay the bills. Again, a very real. decision. Yeah. Because I was 25 years. old, living in my. >> loft room in my parents' house again. >> and that couldn't last very long. >> When I went into that work, I was. teaching meditation by lunch. Like in my. lunch breaks, in the evenings, I would. teach meditation to my colleagues. There. was no demand for it. Two people would. show up. >> 2013, this was meditation and.

mindfulness were not this. >> global movement. And I was just enjoying. it because I was following my passion. >> But I was making money by being a. consultant which was trading my time for. money. >> As I followed that passion more, I got. more confidence in it. The market. changed. We're in a very different. landscape today 12 years on for there. being business opportunities in wellness. and health that didn't exist 12 years. ago. And so now following my passion for. all of that time meant there was a time.

when I could focus on it. Mhm. >> But let's say I had another passion that. wasn't monetizable, people weren't. interested in at all. I could follow it. for years and bring it into my work and. bring it into my life and it would be. beautiful and I'd be more fulfilled, >> but it didn't need to be my thing, right? And so I really really like that. advice and it's something that I I. almost want to propagate so hard right. now because. >> I I feel just responsible that for so. long we've been telling people to, you. know, just do what you love and chase. what you love. And it's like, yeah, in.

your private time and personal time, you. should, but but don't think that that. has to be the thing you make money from, especially if you have a really obscure. gift. >> I 100% agree. I mean, I'm a utilitarian. I I tend to be very I've probably edged. too much on pragmatic. Um, and maybe. that's just the im immigrant upbringing. of just like how are you going to pay. your bills? That's all anyone cared. about. >> Well, the funny thing is I had that too. My parents immigrants, too. But. >> I I think that there's a I think I got. really lucky to figure out what I loved.

really early. >> Yeah. >> And I got really lucky that I got to get. really good at it really early. >> I had this mentor really early on in my. career who said never do what you love. because then it becomes work. >> And so just a completely counter take. and this guy was a guy who just had a. normal he had three or four stores that. he ran and he retired at age 28 and not. as a gazillionaire. I think he made. something in the neighborhood of. probably like 30 or $40,000 a month, uh, you know, take home. And for 20 years, he did nothing besides collect his money.

once a month and then he played golf 5. days a week and he got to hang out and. wa and basically be there for the. entirety of his kids and he loved that. And that was that he accomplished he he. used to tell me he's like, I slayed the. dragon of life. Um, and so what's. interesting is that now the that his. girls are out of the house, he now is. going back and he's back in like, well, what am I going to do now? Right? I. wholeheartedly agree with the the the. not following your passion piece. the. the practical translation um might be or. at least my my my third myth that I. would probably tack on to this as we're. building these. >> is um overbelief in idea and underbelief.

in execution. >> Oh yeah, so true. >> And so there's two elements to this. So. one is that I think many people who are. you know intimidated to start believe. that they have to start the next. Facebook and you know the Zuckerbergs. and the basis of the world are so. incredibly rare. The vast majority of. people who got into business have many. many failured and many many failures. many many failed businesses uh that that. led them to fail into success right and. so uh one is that the idea has to be.

this big amazing thing and the second is. that you shouldn't that the idea itself. is is the success right because they'll. share with as many people as they can. and they almost scratch the itch of. starting when you haven't done anything. >> I say there's basically four steps to. starting a business it's like you have. to get an LLC you take the LLC to a bank. and then you get a bank account and then. you connect that bank account to a. payment processor and then you go ask a. stranger if you can do something in. exchange for money and if you do all. four of those things you have a business. that's it right and so a lot of people.

like spend years being like I'm going to. start a business one day it's like you. can do it tomorrow literally do all of. this tomorrow. >> and then it's like okay well then how do. I get the person to exchange money it's. like well you reach out to the people. you know right you open your phone you. look at the 400 contacts you have there. you open up Facebook profile. You have. 300 friends. You you look at those. friends and then you just say, "Hey,". you send a personal video, send a. personal text and say, "Hey, I am. starting this thing. Um, this is what. we're doing. This is what I'm solving. Uh, do you know anybody?" That's it. And.

so, it's not even like you're asking. your friends to buy something from you. And what's interesting though is that. 90% of the time, the person who responds. is, "Oh, you know, you could do that for. me if you want, but that just gives you. the easiest way that costs 0." And. because we're all connected with the. internet and phones, it's like the. barrier to entry has never been lower. than it is now. It's just the problem is. that um the barrier to distraction is. even lower. >> What what stood out to me there is the. personal text, the video and the email. and then the fact that you're asking. your friends to introduce you to people. who may want it, not asking them. directly. >> That first part, the amount of emails I.

get and I'm sure you get as well of. people pitching their services to you, but none of them are personalized. >> Yeah. >> Walk me through the difference of that. personal video, that personal because. it's it's it's life-changing like when. it's done right. So, I mean, these are. your friends or at least your contacts. that you've met at some point in your. life. And so, trying to recall when you. met that person, literally just stating. their name and asking that it's, hey, I'm going to be doing this. And I would. say consistency is the currency of. credibility. So, what people don't want. to do is refer a friend to somebody.

who's fly by night. But if you can. actually just demonstrate that, hey, he's still doing that, the likelihood. that they're going to refer someone goes. way up because the relational capital is. not nearly at risk. Because if I'm going. to introduce somebody to somebody else, I'm risking my social capital on the. hope that the third party or whoever is. sending this original text is actually. going to do a good job. And so you can. also include a little bit of risk. reversal in that which is like, hey, I'm. doing the first 10 for free and the. reason I'm doing it is because I just. want to get some testimonials, get some. reviews, and also just so that I can. learn, too. Um, and I think just being.

really upfront and really being really. honest about it makes the stakes feel a. lot easier. And so then those first 10. people, you do exactly that. And the. thing is is that you're going to be. better off than they will. For those of. you who are like, I don't want to work. for free. It's like you're not working. for free. You're earning and then you're. sorry, you're learning and then you're. earning. And so we got to go through the. learn phase first. And the best way to. do it is people who aren't direct. connections of yours. Maybe one step. step removed. And then at that point, they're going to give you very real. feedback. And if you do a good job, then. after a certain point, my goal is to get. people to basically shift supply demand.

in their favor. Like I say the two the. two laws of business that I am the most. moved by are supply and demand which is. this X right here and then leverage. So. it's a fulcrum for leverage. And so I. see those are the two biggest forces in. business. And so I want to create. artificial demand for somebody who's. starting out by just saying we'll do a. lot of stuff for free. And then what. happens is when you have more no more. time to give and if people still want. you to do stuff and you say hey I can't. take any more people. If you want you. can pay and people like yeah that's. fine. And then boom and then you make. your first sale. And so, and you'll have.

confidence because you're like, "Well, I. just did it 20 other times." And look at. the results from those people. And but. and the first one, you'll be embarrassed. about the 19th one, you're like, "Wow, you're going to already pay down 60 70%. of all the mess ups that you were going. to do.". >> And then at that point, you're going to. start feeling good. And then from there, my way of doing it is just you just keep. bumping the price by 20% every five. people until eventually people start. stop saying yes. And then up we're like, "Okay, this is the price I can do for. now." And that's basically a very. seamless transition into how do I go. from nothing to making my first dollar.

>> How do you get over the block of I don't. want to work for free? >> I actually think it's entitlement. I. think it's believing that you deserve. something for nothing. Like to to flip. the flip the rules in reverse. Imagine. somebody comes to you, they've never. done anything ever in this particular. space and they say, "Hey, will you pay. me to do this thing?" Would you. immediately, now maybe some people would. be like, "Sure." then it's a charity. thing which is different but would you. be like you know what I I really believe. that this guy is the best person that I. can get this problem solved from.

probably not and so to carry some of. that risk for yourself you say I'm going. to front this but if you want to not do. it for free thing number one is that. you're getting educated so like you're. you're getting free education which I. see is absolutely valuable the second. thing is that you can make terms that. don't necessarily mean that it's free. like there's the price and then there's. the terms the terms of the agreement can. be if you do this with you have to give. me feedback uh throughout the entire. process and at the end if I do a good. job you leave a review right and on. three different formats and leave me a.

video and leave me you know a text. version of it that's now absolutely like. I'll say it differently a business owner. they do illegally and and so therefore. they're very willing to pay people to. leave them testimonials and so if you. would be willing to pay $500 to get an. amazing testimonial then they're. basically you're they've paid you that. $500 but I promise you those first five. 10 reviews will make you so much more. than they could ever have paid you and. not given you a testimonial. So, if we. if we flip it and say, "Hey, would you. rather get $1,000 from this person and.

have them not leave a review versus free. and a glowing review?" I promise you, you will make so much more from one. glowing review than you will from the. $1,000 long term. So, you're just. building up the stockpile, the. foundation to then build whatever you. want to build on top of it. >> Yeah, it's it's really strong advice. It's I I hope everyone who's listening. and watching right now is like going. this is what I'm going to do right now. like 10 hours for free because. >> that's where we're blocking ourselves. We don't have the experience. >> and therefore we don't feel comfortable. selling more because we don't even know. how the service will look.

>> Right? So you're trying to sell a. service and maybe you sold one but you. haven't been through the full life cycle. of what it feels like to deliver that. service. >> Now you don't know how many website. revisions or edits there's going to be. You don't know how many app updates. there going to be. you have no idea. >> and now you're actually less likely to. go sell another one because you're. scared that you don't even know if you. can do it. And I feel. >> under that entitlement is an insecurity. totally. >> of I don't actually even know how to do. this. Like I've got a lot of friends who. are like really talented, really. skilled, they they actually would do a.

great job, >> but because they've never just done 10. clients for free, >> they don't know how it's going to be if. they went and got 100 clients tomorrow. So they're scared of getting a 100. clients. >> Yeah. >> Not because they're not capable, but. because they haven't taken 10 clients. through the process. >> So I want to give you something super. tactile for the audience. >> Yeah, please. >> Just 10 by 10. So give 10 people 10. hours. And so you can say, "Hey, I'm. going to do 10 hours of work for free.". That is a really compelling offer. And. you're going to do it one-on-one and. ideally with them. And so if you want to.

build the website, build it in front of. them for the 10 hours so they can give. you real-time feedback. If you want to. uh you know write email copy, you still. meet with them once a week or not. ideally multiple times a week during. that so you can pay down that the 10. hours faster. And if you're worried you. can do you can do five people for 5. hours that matters less but it's more. that one-on-one so the least scalable. thing possible and it's free labor that. they can track. The reason that's such a. compelling offer is that everyone even. at in in every country even minimum wage. has value. Anybody can understand that 5.

hours of work is a material amount of. work that you're choosing to give away. for free. And so even if you have no. expertise, labor at base price is still. worth something. And so if you add on. expertise, it becomes a very compelling. offer. But the beauty of that setup of. having five or 10 hours that you choose. to spend is that there's basically if. you're doing it oneonone, there's almost. no technical, you know, component to it. You don't have to like build all these. calendaring and and schedule. It's just. like you're just going to text those. five people, hey, you want to do same. time tomorrow. Very simple. And then for. each of those, you know, calls that. you'll take with them. Um by the in the.

very first call, you just say, hey, I. want to be clear. What's the problem? what do you want to you know what do you. want to solve and do you mind at the end. of the five hours we spend together if. this was good if I can tell you about. what I do if you just set that that that. preframe up front and then you do the. hours on the fifth call or the fifth. hour or the 10th hour you say hey. remember I said at the beginning I was. like has this been good so far it's like. awesome let me just recap what we've. done over what we've covered and the. progress we've made do you feel happy. about that great so this is what I think. it would look like cuz also you spent. those 5 or 10 hours getting as much. information or ammunition from them of.

all the other problems that you could. potentially solve and then at that point. says, "Hey, I think that I can solve. problem 1, 2, and three. It'll take me. maybe 6 months, but this is what kind of. an engagement would look like. How does. that sound to you?" That's all you have. to do. And the thing is is that after. you give someone 5 or 10 hours, there's. so much reciprocity that's built up. They're like, "Well, shoot." I mean, sure. Now, if somebody on the first call. says, "No, I don't want to." Then it's. like, you don't you don't even need to. like continue. And so, one of the big. things that I I'm a big proponent of is. absolutely give stuff away for free to. people who are qualified. >> Yes. >> And so, you're like, I don't want a lot.

of tire kickers. was like for sure. neither do I. But if I had a room of 100. of the most qualified people, which if. you're like what are a qualified person, it's it's B. So uh IBM made this figured. this out like 70 years ago and it's. really never changed. So B is budget. authority need timing. Do they have the. money to spend the ability to make the. decision? They need the thing right now. and is now is is it now a priority? And. so if we had a room of a hundred people. who met all four of those criteria, wouldn't you want to do something and. spend five or 10 hours for free? I mean, my god, like if you had if you could.

sign like the reason they sell time. shares over six hour blocks of time is. because it just takes time to build. trust for a higher ticket sale. So, if. anything, it's like you're choosing to. say that I'm going to give you 5 hours, but they're giving you 5 hours to. influence them to ultimately prove that. you're good at whatever you do. And so, I think that is the easiest way to get. started. You can make that your. front-end offer. You can put that in the. video. And I think the the beauty of. that specific offer is that you don't. need to even figure out what you're. going to sell because you'll figure it. out during the time you spend with them. And so you can figure out the offer in.

real time with them. And also because. you're doing it one-on-one, you can. basically you can you can permutate it. You can you can tweak it every single. time you you you pitch it to somebody on. the fifth or eighth call or whatever. That ultimately gets you so many faster. iterations that are low risk. >> Yeah. You know, talking to you today and. Alex, I watch your stuff all the time. The thing that's standing out to me is. you're super tactical. There's all these. methods, there's all these systems, but. then when you were talking about your. life, you were like, it's all about who. I want to become. >> Is there a number that you stop at or is.

it actually who you want to become. that's your northstar? I see. entrepreneurship as the single greatest. path for personal development because if. if we define you know learning as fast. feedback loops, there are very few other. you know professions that give you that. much feedback that brutally honest. brutally honest feedback as the market. will do. And so at every point where I. get stuck in a business, I think to. myself like what skill do I lack? And I. define everything by skills. So even. traits which is just you know a. colloquial term which is really just a. bucket of many skills. Um, I just think,

okay, well, in order for me to appear. confident or be confident, it's really. like 38 things that I have to learn. And. all of these things, if I break them. down easier, I can do them. So, it's. like, okay, when I shake hands, I make. sure that I web the the middle of my. hand and I squeeze firmly and I look at. the person in the eye. It's like, that's. thing one. Thing two is that when we're. talking, like, you nod because you've. been doing this for so long. But some. people who don't know how to have. conversations just stand like this. But. somebody who's an active listener will. nod. They'll say, "Oh, that's a great. point, whatever." And so it's like. that's a second thing. When I walk into.

a room, I'm going to call people by. name. It's a third thing. And so when I. when I try and think about these traits. of who I want to become, it's like can I. break these down into actions that I can. actually do. And so I think that is that. has been a large part of the the growth. that I've I've hopefully, you know, been. able to uh achieve. But in terms of the. ultimate goal for me, it's always just. been to be useful. Mhm. >> And if I think I just do that, then I. like that it's such a simplified goal. because being useful has uh it actually. includes multiple parties because you. cannot be useful unless there's someone. else you're being useful to. And so it. gives you something controllable which.

is that I have to learn skills so that I. can serve someone else and that is how I. can ultimately be useful. And so even. when we're, you know, we're making. content or whatever it is that we're. putting out, I I always try to think. like is this useful? Like can someone. actually will this change someone's. behavior? Like I want to educate. It's. like what is education? It just means. same condition, new behavior. So if. someone has had their same day over and. over again, then they're not learning. So if your day looks the same every. single day, you have learned nothing. And so that means that if you listen to. this podcast and then nothing changes my. behavior as a result, this was just. entertainment, not education. And so.

that has been just it's a very sobering. point because you realize, oh, I have to. change my behavior in order to. demonstrate that I have learned. Now the. second component of this is like, okay, well, what's intelligence then? So. intelligence as I define it is rate of. learning. So, how quickly do I change my. behavior in the same condition based on. some stimulus? >> Mhm. >> And so, if you you in a very real way, you can influence your intelligence by. being willing to change faster. And so, if you've heard 10 podcasts and then you. eventually change versus somebody who. listens to one and then changes, that. person is more intelligent than you are.

And so, I see that is actually really. encouraging because it means like, oh my. god, I have an active control on how. quickly I can learn simply by changing. my behavior. And so, that has been kind. of my my motus operandum for how I how I. how I live life. Yeah, I want to dive. into that. But as an aside, my No, no, no. The reason why you you'll get it in. a second. As an aside, I've been really. embarrassed of my handshake lately. It's. because I've got a really bad case of. tennis elbow. I've been playing a lot of. pickle ball and so my elbow is. destroyed. And so every time I've been I. was on tour for the last month and every.

time I've shook someone's hand in a meet. and greet, my hand was just like just. like literally and I felt so. embarrassed, but every time every time I. did a proper handshake, my elbow would. hurt. Anyway, um but so you just you. just brought back all that all all that. trauma. I really appreciate that mindset. because it's what you said earlier that. it actually sets you up for long-term. success even when things are not going. your way, when the results may not go. your way, when you're having to do the. things you hate. Like it's only when. that's your north star that you can do.

all of that. Whereas if your northstar. is just a number. >> or just an exit or whatever it may be, it's really really hard when you feel. like that exit is just further and. further away and that numbers further. and further away. >> And I'm sure that you've met I mean so. many entrepreneurs that they have their. exit and everyone almost has invariably. the same story. I went to a beach, I. drank my ties for a month and then. realized that this wasn't for me. And. so, so one of the refrains that I have. in my head all the time is uh you are. the problem like me talking to me, but.

like we are the problem. And so we have. this issue where we fundamentally just. always want what we what we can't have. Single people want to get married, married people want to be single. And so. it's more that we just want something. different almost all the time. And so. it's that that desire and you're you're. the monk here, so you know more about. this than I do. That's the issue. Like. that's the core problem. Um and so even. everyone right now who who doesn't have. a business is like, "Man, I would like. to start a business someday." And then. all the people who started businesses. are like, "My god, I can't wait to get. out of this thing." Right? And so it's. just there are pros and cons on both.

sides. There are trade-offs. And I would. say that if there was a fourth myth that. we were we we would tackle. It's that. people want the benefits of multiple. paths without the trade-offs of each. >> And so I think one of the reason so. there's lots of, you know, content of. like, you know, talk to 80-year-olds and. they'll tell you, you know, their. biggest life regrets. But what I find. really interesting is that typically. what they will do is they will assume. all the benefits of their current life. and say I also wish I had the benefits. of this other path. >> Yes, >> without the costs of that other path. that are unknown. And also they don't.

they forget to subtract all the benefits. of their existing path. And so I like to. play it out. It's like okay well if I. were to do this other path and make that. trade um would I be would I be better. off? And most times it ends up just. being like I'd probably be about as. happy as I am now. like it's like, "Oh man, that the one. that got away, it's like you'd probably. be about just as happy as you are now. As soon as you play it out a couple. years, it's like you probably be about. the same." And so that's actually. dramatically reduced my kind of regret. uh analysis from from a living.

perspective. But I think the trade-off. part is so important because especially. when you're starting out or even when. you're more advanced in business, there's a what I call the fallacy of the. perfect pick, which is that we. overanalyze things because we think that. we have to get it just right. Because we. think that if we pick just perfectly, we'll find a way to get only benefits. and no costs. and it doesn't exist. And. so instead, people just stay stuck. thinking that there is some pick that. they're not seeing, but it's just not. true. And so I think the faster you're. willing to make the trade-offs and. actually spell them out like these are. the things I'm willing to trade because. I think a lot of people when they want.

to like pursue any endeavor, they they. immediately think, and I think this is a. little bit more western, is that they. think about addition. They think about. how can how many more things can I do? How many more things can I add to my. calendar? But most like right now, you. currently have a quote full calendar. You live 24 hours a day and you do. stuff. And so I think it's more valuable. to think what am I willing to give up? What am I willing to sacrifice? And. because we have to create space, we have. to create this vacuum so that we can put. this other thing in. And so those are. the trades. And I think in the beginning. the trades are sometimes uh you know, more emotional. Uh because in the.

beginning it's more, you know, my. friends will think this is weird. Uh. they don't want to get this text. What. if someone says, "Oh yeah, you're. starting your business. I forgot." Or, "Oh, you're not not coming out with us. Are you really doing that thing again?". Dude, it's not going to I mean, hey, man, I love you, man. Like I I'm. supporting you, right? or your your. mom's like are you really going to. pursue podcasting as a thing? Right. >> I think like the the you know the first. rule of entrepreneurship is use what you. got. >> Right. It's not waiting for some perfect. condition because um starting is the. perfect condition. >> Yeah. That's where the profession part. comes in. Going back to where you are.

like. >> going back to passion, profession pain. >> with profession that's use what you got. like you actually understand this. industry. Maybe you even worked really. hard to get a degree in it if you went. to college. >> or you've had work experience since you. were 16. But you kind of want to. disregard that because you think there's. the perfect pick over here and. potentially the passionate pick over. here. How do you turn that profession. into a service, a side hustle, a real. business? What does what does that look. like? >> So what's what's really nice from the. prof the profession of the three is by.

far the fastest angle for sure because. you already have the thing that's. valuable because you already do exchange. it for money. And so the only thing you. actually have to add at that point is. promotion and conversion. So you have to. say, how do I let people know about this. thing that I'm doing? And secondarily, how do I get these people once they find. out to give me money? Right? And so from. a letting people know about it, I gave. one of eight ways of letting people. know. So there's warm outreach, so. that's letting people know one-on-one. about your stuff. There's cold outreach, which is oneonone to strangers. You've. got uh paid ads, right, which you can. run um on any platform. Um or you've got.

posting content. Those are the only four. things that one person can do. Now, >> that's a great breakdown. There's only. four things cuz you start thinking. there's a million things I have to do. >> You've got strangers and people you know. and you've got oneonone and one to many. That's the four box. Now from those core. four you then unlock four others which. is that I can do oneonone uh outbound or. I can do or I can post constant or I can. run ads to get customers who then get me. more customers to get affiliates or. partners who get me more customers to. get employees who will then do these.

things on my behalf to get me more. customers or to get agencies who will. then do it as v you know as a vendor on. my behalf. And so the first is the. everyone must start with the core four. Even if you get, you know, a bunch of, you know, partners who then promote on. your behalf, you still started with a. message that you sent to somebody, right? And so the core four is the first. activity that you must do in order to. promote. These other things are higher. leverage. That makes sense. But this is. the core four that you start with. Once. you have someone who's responding to you. and say, "Hey, I'm interested in your. stuff." Uh, which takes someone from a. contact to an engaged lead, right?

They've shown interest. Then we. basically have to take them from engaged. to ideally somebody who's going to buy, right? And so that process um at the. most basic level is going to be a. conversation that leads to a conversion, right? And so I have um a very simple. framework that I that I encourage people. who are starting out to follow which I. call closer. Um and so it's an acronym. so it's easy. So C stands for clarify. which you begin the conversation like. hey why' you respond to my thing right? And the nice thing is that whenever you. promote you only are really going to. have a conversation with someone who.

engages back right so you always have. the reason why right at the front. So. what made you what made you comment on. my post? What made you DM me after that? What made you uh respond to my ad? What. made you u even respond to my my. original message or call? Right? So that. you have that reason. So what made you. do that? Clarify. Then you have L, which. is you label them with a problem. So. okay, so what I'm hearing is uh this is. problem. This is what you're trying to. solve. Does that sound about right? Okay, cool. Then we go to O, which is. overview their past experiences. And so. here we're simply asking them more or. less the same four questions, which is. okay, what have you done so far? How did.

that work for you? Uh what was good? What was bad? And then we try and tie. that to our solution, the pieces that we. can solve. It's like, oh, I think you. might like this because we have this. other element. I'll get to that later, but okay, this is great. What else have. you done? What else have you done? And. so that's kind of the pain cycle. And. the reason the pain cycle is important. is because in order to increase. motivation in the short term, we have to. basically expand the deprivation around. the thing that they want. And so we have. to we have to increase its priority in. the short term to get them to take. action. And that's why that that cycle. is so important. The fourth is S, which.

is we sell the vacation. And so we want. to talk about the outcomes of what the. experience is going to be like once the. problem's solved. Uh rather than uh just. having some long-winded pitch. And. what's very interesting about the cell. portion is that most people talk way too. much. We try and get it to under 320. words. So it doesn't like people if you. can if you can very accurately describe. someone's existing condition to them and. say, "So it sounds like you're. struggling with this and it sounds like. you're struggling with this and it. sounds like you're struggling with this. and if we solve this one, this is what. unlocks. We solve this one, this is what. locks and we solve this, this one locks. Is that about right?" They're like,

"Yeah." It's like we can totally help. you. A lot of times you actually don't. need to sit if you nail the the pain. part. The pitch is very easy. And so I. am a big believer in having three points. in whatever pitch you have. So you can. always chunk it up, you know, like I. have our attract, convert, deliver. You. have okay, how do we get people to find. out? How do we convert them and how do. we give them the stuff? Right? Having. three elements of whatever it is. I. mean, I used to do sales scripts for, you know, different companies back in. the day. So it's like I had a mortgage. lead company and they're like, "Okay, well the the leads are, you know, timely. You want them to be qualified. and you want them to be exclusive.". Okay, great. If you're in fitness, it's.

like you need you need a you need a. workout, you need to eat right, and you. need to have accountability. If you have. all three, then you can't fail, right? And so there's always three. And then. with each of those three, I have kind of. in the back pocket a little anecdote. that to give an example of that. So that. way it makes it more real for the person. rather than explaining all the sets and. reps and all that stuff. No one cares. That's why it's selling the vacation, not the plane flight. Uh we're not going. to sell how we're going to get there. We're going to sell where we're going to. go. >> And so once we do S, then we go to E. So. at that point, we ask for the sale. If. they say no, then E and R come into come. into uh come into play. E is explaining. away their concerns. There's only five,

right? They're going to have a timing. issue. I've got a lot going on right. now. They have a money issue. I don't. think it's worth it. Uh they have a. decision maker problem, which is I don't. have the authority to make the decision. I need someone else's permission. Uh. they're going to have a uh a stall. issue, which is let me think about it. And then there's fifth is preferences. So I don't like this particular thing. about your product or solution. >> Um which is just saying that they want. your results a different way. And so. basically once you understand how to. overcome each of those five issues which. they are all actually just uh fallacies.

in decision-m. So if it's timing issue. it's not really a time thing. It's a. priorities thing. If it's a money thing. it's not really a money thing. It's a. value thing. If it's a decisionmaker. thing it's really that they need support. not permission. And then we rely on past. agreements in order to say hey well your. husband knows that you're overweight. right? Do you think he wants you to stay. overweight? No. Then why would it be. against you doing something to change. that? Right? So, just walking through. those and I go through all of them, but. that's okay. >> No, I love it. Yeah, this is a master. class, man. >> Um, and then and then from a stalling. perspective, it's actually helping.

someone make a decision because a lot of. people don't know how to decide because. you will have this conversation far more. than every person you talk to. People. maybe only have five 10 sales. conversations a year. If you are selling. in for a business, you'll have four or. five a day. And so, you should. absolutely always be more equipped than. they are to solve the problem. Um, the. one that I skipped was preferences, which is, you know, I like uh, hey, I I. really want, you know, my my my friend. Charlotte, she lost 30 lbs doing your. thing, but can I just keep eating the. food that I'm currently eating? And so, they want their results your way. And. so, the easiest way to explain around.

that is if you change the variables, change the outcome. Do you like the. outcome? Yeah. Well, then don't change. the variables. >> And this is the only thing that I can. give you confidence in. And the question. is, is. >> you eating the food you want more. important than you looking the way you. want to look? And that's a real. question. And if the person says yes, it. is, then it's like, okay, well, then. nothing's going to change. if you don't. change. >> Yeah. >> And so then you get to have a real. conversation. But each of those those. are the fundamental kind of ways of. getting over them. And so once you. explain away the concerns you after each. explanation, you always ask again. So. does like does that does that help that? Does that does that um does that solve.

that for you? Great. So ready to move. forward, you ready to do whatever the. next thing is? And then finally is R. And the R actually happens after the. sale and is something that I added years. later in my career. It used to just be. close. Um but the R um is reinforce the. decision. So in the 24 hours post. purchase is when the vast majority of. people either either have you know cold. feet or they regret or you can reinforce. it and becomes a a super positive right. and so people believe it or not there's. tons of research that supports this is. that they will make a decision about. your business based on the first 24.

hours post purchase. So it's this huge. moment where you can make a first. impression that preframes the remainder. of the of the relationship that you have. with them. And so being incredibly. dialed of like hey so you bought let me. tell you what the next steps are going. to be. We're going to take these steps. and we're going to tie that to goal. Right? So, you said you wanted these. three things. The way that we're going. to solve these three things is these. three steps. These are the actions you. take. We're going to meet tomorrow at. this time. I'll see you there. Or if you. have a, you know, onboarding rep, then. you'd go from there. But that. fundamentally is how you'd have the. conversion conversation. And so, to loop. back to if I'm a professional, how do I.

do this? It's like, well, you're going. to use the core four. You're going to. reach out to people. Once they respond, you'll initiate the conversation where. you go through the closer framework and. then you make them an offer to do your. stuff, which will be either moonlighting. or, you know, in the morning. And what's. really interesting is that people think. that their 9 to5 is getting in the way. of their dreams when it's really they're. 5 to 9. And so 5:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. it's like you're it's four prime hours. and then 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. it's. another four prime hours. So it's like. you've got eight you've got a full. workday that you can work which I. strongly recommend. I think a lot of.

people are big on the burn the boats. thing and I think there's a time and a. place for that. But if you have a family. and you've got a mortgage, I would. recommend you keep your job. >> I agree. and then supplement your. income. And then at the point where your. supplemental income in your off time. surpasses your your full-time income, that is when I say make the jump. And. for me, cuz I actually, believe it or. not, tend to be relatively riskaverse. person. I would say if you do that for 6. months because there's going to be. volatility. >> um in the business. And I'll also just. play out the next problem they're going.

to have if that's all right. >> Go for it. >> So, >> so much value, man. So much value. >> So volatility is a symptom of. insufficient volume. And so if you feel. like you're like, man, how, you know, I. got a couple customers and then, you. know, the the leads stop coming in. It's. like, well, you're doing insufficient. volume. You're not doing enough of the. core four. We have to post more content. We have to post more ads. We have to do. more reachouts, right? That's what we. have to do. And so, if you think, okay, well, I've been doing these reachouts. and, you know, no one's responding or. things like that. One, we need to make. sure that the offer that we have is. good, which I think we started with the. 5 hour thing. I think it's a great first.

offer. But, you know, under that. assumption, if we do this, I have a rule. of 100, which is that you do 100 uh per. day. So, that means you're doing either. a h 100red minutes that you're putting. into posting content and you post and. you post to be very clear and you post. uh you you spend $100 a day on ads uh or. you do 100 reachouts. And if you want to. be crazy, you can do all three. And so, in those in those in those scenarios, uh. the key is that you have to keep going. And so if you get, let's say you do the. rule of 100 and you get one sale a week, okay, then if you want to, that would.

give you four sales a month roughly. If. you're like, man, I want to go from four. sales a month to to 16 sales a month. The nice thing is that you actually have. a clear input output equation, which is. that, okay, it costs me 700 primary, you. know, efforts to get one sale. And so. that volatility feels like it's only. one, but it's because you're not doing. enough. If I take that 700 and do 700. per day, then all of a sudden I'll be. making one sale a day. And. fundamentally, that little compression. process is the only thing that separates.

very small businesses from very large. businesses. Most small business owners. have no idea how much more volume the. guys who are ahead of them put out. I. remember a conversation at the very. beginning of me deciding to make content. after I sold the company where I said, "Hey, you know, I I really want to learn. this Instagram game um and content. game." And so I talked to somebody who's. big big influencer and I said, you know, can you can you analyze my stuff and. tell me what I'm doing wrong? And he. said, "Dude, you're not doing anything. wrong. You're just doing too little.". And so he said he said, "Pull up your.

Instagram." And I pulled it up. Uh and I. think I was doing like a post every. other day or something like that. And. he's like, "Dude, I got four posts a. day." And I was like, "Whoa." And then. he said, "Pull up your LinkedIn." And I. I don't think I posted on LinkedIn. He's. like, "I got 10 posts a day." And he's. like, "Pull up your pull up your. Twitter." At the time, now X is like I. had nothing. Right. And so he he went. side by side. He's like, I'm putting out. 70 80 a day and you're putting out one. every other and you're complaining. And. I was like, got it. >> And so the most people dramatically. underestimate the amount of volume that. is required. And that volume has a great. feedback loop for skill because you do.

these iterations and you will suck. >> and that is okay. And as long as you. like the process that I have for. improving any part of any system is just. do a tremendous amount of volume. Let's. say we do a 100 whatevers. We look at. the top 10 percent of of the ones that. got the highest response rate or the. ones that got the most views or the ads. that got the most clicks. We say, "Okay, what was different about these top 10. percent compared to the other 90?" And. so the next hundred we do, we say, "Let's just try and just do the thing we. did in the top 10%. We do it again." And. that continual refinement process has. been the key to all the stuff that we've.

done. It's just look at what worked, do. more of that. And so if you were in the. professional bucket, that is more or. less kind of the approach that I would. take to get that first dollar. >> Everyone needs to listen to that 15. minutes every day. I'm not kidding. That. was the most amount of value I think has. ever been packed in a 15 minutes that. I've ever heard in my entire life. And. I'm not kidding. That is such brilliant, brilliant advice. Totally broken down. step by step. I mean, you could I mean, you can make like 70 posts off of just. the last 15 minutes. It was so No. And.

and I mean that. I'm not just saying. that because right now as you're. speaking, I've got so many friends that. I've got in my head that are exactly at. that point. And it's either the volume. that's messing them up. It's either not. having the plan to how do you pitch and. convert? Two questions. The first is how. do you stop being scared of sucking? >> Because a lot of my friends are scared. of sucking. >> Mhm. >> And the second one is why are we so. uncomfortable selling.

>> and promoting and showing our work? >> So the first one, what's really. interesting about the question is that I. think that most people are actually very. okay with sucking. I think they're very. not okay with being judged for sucking. And so I think that at the at the onset. we have to redefine success as trying. and not as succeeding uh or at least. getting whatever desired outcome there. is because failure and success are are. salt and pepper. They're married. They're the one one leads to the next. And so the idea is we want to get as. many failures out of the way as fast as.

possible. And so it's like we want to. pay down that failure debt as again as. soon as we can. And so the the very. tactical thing that I would advise is. think about there's we think I don't I. don't want people to think that I'm a. failure. It's actually not people. There's like two people that you hear. their voice in your head. And so when. you actually get really clear on who. whose voice is that because I'll tell. I'll tell you a real world example. So. for me. >> when I this is sounds ridiculous but. just but just to show you hopefully how. ridiculous whatever you think sounds. I'll share one of mine. So, when I was.

uh thinking about selling my company, the the offer was for for 46.2 million. And I I was afraid that it wasn't enough. to impress the people that I wanted to. impress. And so, and I had to figure. that out. I was like, I don't know. I. mean, is it worth it? Maybe I should. hold on to it longer and grow more. And. I want, you know, back and forth. And. when I thought more more about it, I was. like, actually, there's only one person. whose opinion I'm concerned about. And. then when I named it, when I was like, "Oh, it's Tom. Tom's the per and like.

I'm not even that close with Tom, but. Tom, my envisionment of Tom judging my. my my my exit as not good enough for. their approval." I was like, "Wait, I'm. letting Tom have this much influence. over my life. That's absurd." And so, one of the big um reframes that I have. in my head is that if you don't know why. you believe what you believe, it's not. your belief, it's someone else's. And so. if you can't explain like why am I not. doing this? If you can't actually. explain it, it's because there's someone. else's voice that is influencing you.

that you're not aware of. And so I try. and Yeah. Ex the naming is the key part. because as soon as you see that, you're. like Tom. You're like screw Tom. You're. like I want to It's like is is Tom's. approval worth more than the dream that. you want to pursue. And as soon as you. get that, you're like, well, hell no. And then you move forward. And I can. tell you just from from the other side. of this, and I want to I want to be. really clear. I understand how scary it. is. It took me 6 months to quit my job. And I I talked to my friend every single. day saying, "This is the day. This is. the day. This is the day." And when I. did finally quit my job, I drove across.

the country. And I only called people. from home when I was already halfway. across. I didn't tell anyone I was. leaving because I was so afraid of what. they would say. So I say this as. somebody who absolutely gets it. But I. just want to tell you from the other. side of it, it's, you know, this is a. Leila quote, not me, but you know, fear. is a mile wide and an inch deep. And so. it looks like this vast ocean of of like. I'm going to drown. But as soon as you. take the first step, you're like, "Oh, this is a puddle.". >> And there's a quote from Jo Willick that. I love that's recent. It's been top of. mind for me, which is besides death, all.

failure is psychological. >> It's just when you the longer you think. about it, the more you're like, wait, >> all failure is just me drawing an. arbitrary line in the sand that I say. anything that does not meet the standard. will force me to be upset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so it's like, okay, well, if I don't. die, then I can keep going. And if I. don't die, then it means I can stand it. >> Yeah. And and I think a big part of it. when I'm listening to you is because. it's psychological. >> Let me know that it will happen. Yeah.

>> So I remember when I put out my first. video, which I didn't tell anyone I was. going to do. I spent two years watching. videos before I made one and put one. out. >> And when I put out my first video, I. remember my friend saying to me, "You. talk too fast. the music is too loud. It's edited badly. Cool. Like it wasn't. received with praise. >> Now, I didn't think about that too much. >> And now, if I go back to advise someone, I'd say, anticipate that. >> Yeah. >> Because if you anticipate it, then it's.

okay. Then it's uh inch deep. >> Yeah. >> Right. You're like, "Oh, okay. Well, yeah, they're probably going to tell me. that the editing wasn't great or. whatever." Yeah, >> but if. I have it, you know, not people who actually. avoid some of them, but guess what? I. won't avoid all of them. There will. still be someone who criticizes the. tone, what I'm wearing, how I look, whatever it is. And as soon as you know. that, >> you go, "Oh, that's all it is.". Someone's going to look at and be like,

"Yeah, I'm not sure." And it's like, "Oh, wait. Their reaction doesn't change. my reality." Yeah, >> like their reaction will always be. there. And I think what we're trying to. do, going to your earlier point as well, is we're trying to avoid the reaction. We want to create something. >> that has no negative reaction. >> And there is not a single person on. planet earth that has created a song, a. movie, uh podcast or whatever it may be. that has had no negative reaction. So. >> I have so so many quick thoughts on. this. So number one is that if you do.

nothing, people will criticize you. If. you do something, people will criticize. you. So criticism is a fixed cost. Period. Number two, it takes about 20. hours to become proficient in just about. anything. You want to play guitar like. proficient in just about anything. It. just takes people 10 years to get the. first 20 hours. And that's a huge a huge. issue. The third is that when you're. thinking about feedback is one, not all. feedback is created equal. You don't. want to listen to the people who are. closest to you. You want to listen to. the people who are closest to your.

goals. M. >> and so listen to the people who are. already at your goals who already have. achieved those goals and listen to their. feedback because I'll say for example. for me like if I if I I mean I rarely do. but if I post anything of me at the gym. the only people who comment are people. who are smaller than me. No guy who is. bigger than me ever has talked [ __ ]. about you know about my you know my. fitness stuff. Um and so to the same. degree anybody who's an entrep who's a. real entrepreneur is going to be like. hell yeah man you got out there. Oh of. course you failed. I mean obviously you. failed but that's okay right? everyone. falls the first time right from uh from.

the matrix. And so expect failure and I. think that if you can play it out the. there's a there's a really wonderful. framework around this which is the the. frame of the veteran which is if you. were to imagine whatever bad experience. occurs happening a thousand times more. in a row how would you feel on the. thousandth time? And if that's how. you're going to feel in the thousandth. time with the exact same condition, you. might as well feel that way today. And. it's just been a really like a like if. you're like man I hate traffic. It's a. Google. Let's assume traffic is a. constant and it happens for the next. thousand days. You'll probably be like,

"Well, it's just how it is." Totally, >> right? And so, this is just how it is. That's the feedback that you're going to. get from the videos and it's going to. keep happening and it's okay. >> Yeah. Your your point just now of the. problem is it takes us 10 years to get. the first 20 hours. >> is so true. I know something that I've. >> because people are often like that to me. like Jay, how do you solve a problem? I'm like, if I think something's a big. problem to solve or a skill to learn, I. will cancel every evening plan this week. and I will cancel my entire weekend. And. all I'm doing this weekend is figuring. out that skill. I'll get a coach. I'll.

commit to the time and I'll be around. that community of people. Those are my. three practices or things to develop a. skill. And then this weekend is. dedicated to getting good at X. And it's. like if I don't get enough hours in this. weekend, the next four weekends are. dedicated to that thing. And all of a. sudden in a month, I've solved a problem. that could have taken me six years. And. so I love that piece of advice because I. think it's it's the same advice when you. give people like, "Hey, just try three. things out." And they're like, "Okay,

I'll try three things out, one a year.". >> And and also when you give it 12 months. to try one thing out, you actually never. know. Whereas if you did something for a. whole day, >> like I remember when me and my wife were. in Hawaii and we both grew up in London. >> We never went surfing or skiing and. things like this, right? We're in. Hawaii. We try surfing. We do it the. whole day. I knew I was never going to. be a surfer and it's the last thing I. want to do and I don't care at all about. surfing. It It looks good, but it is not. fun to do. Like I didn't enjoy the.

process. And I'm like, but if I went. like for 30 minutes one day, then I'd be. like, "Oh, well maybe I just didn't do. it right." And then you're like, "Okay, I'll go 30 minutes next year. I'll do an. hour next year." And so we just keep. elongating the kind of failure rate or. knowing how quickly something's. important or not. >> I think it's getting completely immersed. and just soaked in whatever the thing. that you're trying to pursue. So I'll. tell you a comparable story. So when I. was when I had my first business, I I. was I've never been a tech oriented.

person. Now I try not to speak that over. myself, but like I'm working on it. And. so I was like, I have to learn how to. build web pages. I hate relying on these. IT guys. They're slow. They don't build. it the right way. And so this is right. as some of the early kind of softwares. come out. And I had put it off. And then. I finally said, "Both days this weekend, I'm locking the doors. I'm closing the. the frames. I'm turning off my phone.". And I just had a simple page. I said, "I'm just going to copy this page. I. just want to see if I can figure it. out." And I set two full days aside and. I finished it by noon. >> Yeah. >> But I had put it off for weeks. And so.

most times it's almost like fear is a. mile wide and an inch deep. So is. ignorance. It's like it's more than you. expect but less than you think. Yeah. Right. You get in and you're like, "Oh, there's only four parts to this." Okay. I think okay, now I You want to wrap. your arms around it. And I think that's. why having these kind of longer intense. sessions where you kind of drink all of. it up because if you did multiple 30. minute sessions, for example, it's like. it'll take you the first 15 minutes to. get back into what did I just learn last. time? And then it just it takes very. it's very hard to get make progress. And. so I'm a I'm a massive advocate of full.

shutdown days. I mean, drink your. coffee, get your good night's sleep, and. then put your earplugs in and then like. lock in. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then. the second question was why are we so. uncomfortable with selling, promoting. ourselves, putting ourselves out there? >> So I would put that as two two separate. buckets. So one is the promotion, which. is kind of public embarrassment, public. harass, you know, that kind of Yeah. The. second one is um why am I scared to ask. this person for money? Right? And so I. think on some level it comes down to.

some people feel like imposters. They're. like I you know I don't deserve this and. things like that. But I think that. there's a there's a very tactical way to. overcome that which is you outwork your. self-doubt. And so if you um if you've. done those 20 and I think it's the. people who haven't done the 20 who feel. like imposters, but if you've done it 20. times and you're like, I know what's. going to happen next and I know what. your problem is and I also know I can. solve it. And so your conviction goes up. because you're not you're not. exaggerating anything. You're not. puffing your chest. You're just one of. my big rules in persuasion is state the.

facts and tell the truth. And so you're. like, listen, I've done 20 of these. You. have the same issues as these people. This is what I did for them. I think I. can do the same thing for you. We're not. exaggerating. We're not claiming. anything. We're just saying like this is. this is what's happened. And so I think. that that will dramatically decrease the. anxiety around the conversation. The. second piece is the fear of like. rejection in the micro. And so um it's. it's always overstated because the worst. thing they can say is no. And then you. say, "Okay, fine. No worries." Like not. a big deal. I'll just ask somebody else,

right? Like if anything, sales is like. dating. It's a numbers game. Like you. have to be willing to say I would and. this is why I like rule of 100 a lot is. have a hundred conversations and I. promise you your anxiety will go down. because you'll just habituate. And so. everyone like and this is the. psychological way of actually curing. phobias. If you're afraid of spiders, the fastest way to cure spiders is lock. you in a room with spiders. You'll have. a couple panic attacks. You'll you'll. you'll pass out. You'll wake back up. The spiders are still there. You wait. pass out. Wake back up and eventually. you're just like, "All right, I'm used. to it." Yeah.

>> It's because they've done this before. And so we just have to get you to the. we've done this before part as fast as. we can. >> Yeah. What about people who feel like. the approaches are manipulative, okay? >> Or these tactics are like you're preying. on someone's vulnerabilities and. insecurities and of course that person. wants to lose weight for their partner. and you're playing to that. Like what. about someone who feels that way and. that's what gets in their head like oh I. know I have a valuable service. I know I.

want to help people but actually like. they should want to do it themselves. I'm not going to convince them. >> So I'm going to I'll define two things. So one I see the process of selling as. arranging the variables to increase the. likelihood a sale occurs. That is a. selling process. And so we want to use. all the variables we can because if we. can control the variables we control the. outcome. And so I see then underneath of. that the difference between help and. manipulation is intention. And so you. use the exact same uh variables to. influence someone's purchasing decision. But if your intention is to scam them.

out of money and not help them, then for. sure you should I hope you feel all the. feelings that you have right now. But on. the flip side, if you're if you know. that you're going to do your absolute. best and and you've not misrepresented. something. And I think this is the key. part where people feel the imposter. syndrome is because they misrepresent. If you state the facts and tell the. truth, most of your anxiety goes away. And I have this conversation sometimes. with entrepreneurs even at a million. dollar a year, $5 million a year. And. they're like, I just feel this imposter. syndrome with my business and I'll say, "Are you stating anything that's not. true?" And then they'll kind of look at. me and they're like, "Well, you know, I. teach agencies how to, you know, grow.

their customer base." And I'm like, "Okay, and why do you feel like an. imposttor?" They're like, "Well, you. know, I had an agency and it just really. wasn't that successful." And I'm like, "Okay, are your clients successful?". They're like, "No, the clients are. successful." I'm like, "Okay, so what do. you teach them that you were not able to. do for yourself?" And they're like, "Well, I was actually just really good. at the sales side. I was really bad at. the delivery side." I said, "If you just. say, "Hey, I had an agency. I was really. good at selling customers, really bad at. delivering on them, but if you're good. at delivering on them and you need a. sales process, I can help you." I was. like, "Would you feel like you're being. an imposttor?" He's like, "No." I was. like, "And believe it or not, that's.

actually more compelling because you. have a damaging admission, which. actually makes you it's one of the. components of persuasion, right? Like. you just just tell people all the things. that are not good because when you tell. them the good things, they'll actually. believe them more." And so I would tell, you know, I was in the gym space for a. while and so, you know, a gym owner. would have, you know, a bad location and. bad parking. And they're like, you know, I I don't I don't it's it's. embarrassing. And I say, include it in. the ad. Just say, hey, by the way, we. have the uh we don't have the newest. equipment. Uh our parking is terrible. We have a tiny location, but we have the.

best workouts on this side of the. Mississippi. Right? And if you say that, then it's like people are like, I love. that guy, right? Because he told the. truth. And so you'll be significantly. more persuasive and have less anxiety by. just stating the facts and tell the. truth. And if the facts aren't. compelling enough, do the free work so. the facts are compelling. >> Yeah. Oh, I love that so much because. I'm thinking of a friend right now who. has a service he offers and he's always. scared that he's a one-man band and he's. scared that companies are going to ask. for a service and he's almost. embarrassed of saying, >> well, I'm just one guy. >> and he wants to present himself as a.

company. >> And I'm always saying to him, well, no, tell them because you're one guy, you. can actually be there. You're present. You're doing all the work yourself. You're committed. you're not just. rolling out something that everyone else. is doing. >> So, I have I have an awesome frame for. this. So, when we had our software. company, Allen, which we sold in 21, uh. it was a software that helped uh. agencies kind of manage schedules. It. did automated texting stuff back before. all the new stuff now, right? And so, um. I actually had agencies that sold to gym. owners and I obviously also owned Gym.

Launch at the time, too, which is which. is the category, you know, king in that. space, right? It's the biggest company. there. And so, they were like, "How do. we how do we compete against you?" And I. said, "Every position has an advantage.". And so you are going to say, "Man, Alex, Alex isn't going to be the one take, you. know, he's not the one taking your. calls. He's just going to you're going. to be client number 77. He's not even. going to know your name. You're going to. be assigned to some account rep that he. pays, you know, nothing to." And of. course, we paid well, but like I don't. know, you know, he just pays way less. Um that he onboarded in two days. Uh and. like that's the level of service you're.

going to get. Whereas with me, you get. the highest person. and you get the CEO. and you call me, I'll respond. immediately. I'm the one working your. account. So, don't compare Jim the size. of Gym Launch to the size of my company. Compare the person you're actually going. to work with. And am I going to be. better than his rep number seven? Yes. That's a compelling pitch. Now, if I'm. flipping the table, I'm going to say, "Listen, this guy's in his mom's. basement. He hasn't proven any track. record. We've been here for 10 years, and the reason we've been here for 10. years, and we've gotten so big, is. because we're actually good at what we. do. And if we weren't good at what we. do, we wouldn't be this big, and we. wouldn't been doing it for this long.

This guy has no process. He might be. gone tomorrow." We both have advantages. that we can cater. So there's no. position on the board that doesn't have. advantage. You just got to play what you. got. Again, rule number one, right? >> Yeah. And and and the idea of pointing. it out. >> Yeah. >> Is just so masterful because that's. what's blocking us. It takes away we're. all trying to be everything to everyone. >> and we want to portray that we've. thought about every part of the puzzle. and we're the one-stop shop. And I feel. like whenever anyone says they're the. one-stop shop, >> there's nothing there, right? Because.

it's like, well, wait a minute. There's. no way you could have figured out. >> this and this and this and this and this. >> with just you. >> With just you and you've been in the. business for two years, right? Like it's. it's just not possible. And so and. that's so freeing. Like I'm hoping. people hear that and just feel so much. lighter and go tell the truth, state the. facts, and and that's it. You know, >> if they say no, that's okay. Because. honestly, if they say no, then they. weren't going to be a fit. >> Yeah. And so I can promise you some of. the best deals are the ones you never do. because right now any business owner can.

tell you this like there are customers. that you're like I wish we did not ever. talk to this person, right? And so like. you're just avoiding some of these. things that are going to be calamities. later. So you might as well just get it. up front. And the thing is is that when. you set those expectations, it just it. creates such a clean relationship from. there on. It's like these are the. expectations you can set. This is what I. will do. Anything outside of that, I'm. not going to pretend like I have done. it. Now if we want to figure this out, I'll be figuring it out with you. and if. you if you like the stuff I have here, I. can apply some of those principles, but. I haven't done it. I want to be upfront. about that. And so, where's the imposter. syndrome? Where's the fear? It's like.

there shouldn't be any. And it's all. about the deception piece. And I think. that's where that's where people get in. trouble. >> Yeah. The other thing I've learned about. that is that I feel like people who win. watch winners. Yeah. >> And people who fail watch losers. >> And so when I look online or even if I. talk to people that I get a lot of this. where people be like, I can't believe. this guy has like 100,000 followers. Like, have you seen his stuff? it just. sucks. Like, oh, I can't believe that. this guy like has a business making a. million dollars. Like, I mean, he hasn't. even got, you know, and so there's a lot.

of this where you find people who are. not winning are constantly whereas like. I'm sure if me and you were talking. about something like dude, did you see. what this guy did? That's amazing. Like, do you see what you know, whatever? And. and so I feel like there's that ideology. that we get stuck in where we're like, I. know I'm better than that guy or. whoever, that girl, whatever it is. I. know I'm better, but I'm not doing. anything about it. And that hurts me. even more. >> Can I tell you a story about this? >> Yeah. >> So, I know I think you've had um Kylie. Jenner on this. >> Not Kylie. I've had.

>> You have a Kendall. You've had Kendall. Kendra. >> Well, I'll then I'll tell you the story. So, >> Oh, I know the Kylie story from you. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. When she. became a billionaire. Yeah. Yeah. I've. watched the video, man. I'm in, man. I'm. in your content. I'm there. I'm there. >> So, Kylie became a billionaire. I'm. 27ish at the time and I'm making I'd say. very good money and I thought I was I. was, you know, the the man, right? And. then here comes this girl who's seven, eight years younger than me and she's. crushing, you know, she crushed it and.

she was better she was better than I. was. And I and I, you know, my first. response was ego being like, "Hey, Chris. Jenner is her mom. She's had her life. set up since day one. She's been on. reality TV for, you know, I had all that. all that narrative." And then underneath. of that, I was like, chill. What can I. learn from her? Right? And so I have the. fundamental belief that if someone makes. more money than you, they know something. that you don't know. And in that, you. can learn of them. And I think that that. allows every single person in the world. success to serve you. >> Yeah. >> Literally, you just flip the world into.

like these are all the different lessons. I can learn from all these people. And I. think um one of my it's the sword of. Gryffindor, but I love this quote that. was on it. >> I love Harry Potter. Yeah. >> Um, but it was made of, you know, goblin. steel or dwarf steel and it was it only. took that which made it stronger. >> And so you know in no way makes you. stronger and you trying to point out all. the deficiencies. It's like you're you. are the thing that you are afraid of for. yourself. Like you're you're going to. point out all this person's deficiencies. and your big fear is about the fact that. other people want to do that to you. So.

first start by stop doing it to other. people and start trying to find what are. the things that they are because the. thing is is it is a fact. They are. better than you at something. And I. think like you have to accept that as. much as you're like that guy's got. 100,000 followers. Well, and he only had. one viral video. It's like, well, he's. got one more than you do. >> Yeah. >> What was it about that video now? Let's. start tackling that. Um, and so like. from Kylie, the thing that I learned was. brand. I was like, she's got a big. brand. And then I was like, okay, I need. to start looking at that. And that's. what that's what kicked off this entire. journey for me even making all this. content stuff was that Forbes cover. >> Yeah. >> That was like that was the thing for me. And so, you know, Kylie, if you ever.

watch this, like you're a huge influence. in my life. >> I love that. We'll get it. We'll get it. I love that. And and what I like about. that is that criticism doesn't cure. envy. >> Yeah. >> And also success doesn't cure envy. It's. only study that kills envy. Like that. appreciation, that admiration, that's. the only thing. And envy is that thing. that when when I coach people and I've. been fortunate enough to coach. >> musicians and actors and whatever. >> And there's two questions I always ask. people is the first thing is who do you. envy?

>> And there is no person on the planet. even in the 0.001% 001% who doesn't envy. someone that I've that I've met at least. >> and then the second one is who's your. god or what is your god whether it's. money time energy whatever it is. >> and and those two questions sum it up. for people and what I found is that. success just doesn't take away envy so. even if you had become a billionaire in. the next 12 months. >> that still wouldn't have taken it away. because she did it at 21 and you did it. younger I can tell you. >> yeah exactly and so it's like that.

that's what's so fascinating about it is. that we You become successful by what. you get, but you become fulfilled by. what you lose. And losing envy and. losing comparison and losing criticism. leads to happiness. So when people say. money doesn't buy happiness, it's not. that money is not important. Money makes. you successful and it's great. You. should get it. >> Happiness was never in the equation with. money. That wasn't the point of it. Like. I love having awards and accolades, but. they were never in the equation of. happiness. They were in the equation of. success. And the equation of happiness.

was envy, ego, illusion, lust, anger, all of this stuff. And so it's funny how. the equations get like, you know, crossed over. >> Yeah. Oh, I I just I loved everything. that you. >> No, I just it really resonates hearing. about it from your story and also just. like breaking it down for people and. making it really simple and going like, let's stop demonizing people who are. selling well or making money and doing. this thing because it it leads to a. certain part of the puzzle. But then. let's also remember that you wouldn't be. who you are today if you hadn't got over. that envy right at the beginning.

>> So let me toss this in that I think. might be helpful. >> So one of the quotes that I don't like. is comparison is the thief of joy. And. I'll explain why. >> because I so I think comparison is. incredibly valuable feedback tool. Now. what we want to be clear is the. differentiation between criticism and. insults. And so insults are attack on. someone's character saying and I'll give. you an example. And a criticism is the. difference between uh expected and. reality, right? Or desired and actual. So uh I expect you to be on time and you.

are 5 minutes late. Okay, cool. So I. say, "Hey, you were 5 minutes late. This. was the expectation. This is what. happened." That is criticism, right? Insult. And you're lazy. And so um if we. can pull those things apart, we can take. the good of because I I think our brains. are comparison brains. Like it's how we. how we orient ourselves in the world. Where am I? and very tough. Maybe years. and years of of of monk study can maybe. get you out of it, but I think for the. vast majority of people, comparison is. is going to be fixed in their brain. And. so it's like we want to use that. We.

want to use that skill of learning to to. point out the discrepancy between where. they are and where I am so that I can. create steps so that I can get better. I. want to completely eliminate and erase. insults. And also on the flip side, if. someone insults me, um this is a a side. note, but like if the big fear that many. people have on promoting or selling is. that someone's gonna say something bad. about them. >> and so that they're going to get. insulted. And the biggest reframe that's. been helpful for me is simply. translating all hate or insults into he.

lives his life in a way that I would not. prefer. >> And it just comes down to that. I can't. believe he's he's married to this. person. He makes this kind of why does. he think he like he lives his life in a. way that I would not prefer? And that is. just it has really boiled a lot of the. the hatred down to like oh well I mean. you live your life in a way that I would. not prefer and that's fine. That's why. you life my life and hey. >> more power to you man. Uh and that has. just like really quelled a lot of the. concern because I'm sure uh like you I. get an unending you know deluge of of. hate comments just because if you put.

yourself out there like if again if you. do nothing you will get criticized for. doing nothing and if you do something. you'll get criticized. So criticism is a. fact. It is a fixed cost. >> Yeah. And and yeah and that's why like I. I agree with you on the comparison point. and that's why I look at. >> comparison as two kind of brothers study. and envy. >> and so that's that's the choice you have. like we have to compare comparison is a. fixed like you're going to compare. because the brain is wired that way and. it's either I compare myself with envy. or study and those are my two choices. I'm going to compare and so this idea of.

never comparing yourself to anyone. >> is actually a lie and a myth in and of. itself because if you never compared. yourself to anyone you wouldn't have. goals you wouldn't aspire for anything. You wouldn't become better. >> There's no feedback because you can't. say, well, this is where I was and this. is what hap like that is a comparison. And so I would I say that because one of. the things we have is feedback is fuel, right? And so it's like I want as much. fuel as I can. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's. such a you know, you've said the word. feedback's come up so many times today. where you mentioned it so many times and. to to see feedback as fuel is the only.

way to have an iterative constantly. evolving process. And I find that, you. know, there's the famous quote from. Albert Einstein where he said, "Insanity. is doing the same thing over and over. again expecting a different result.". >> And feedback is the way you don't do the. same thing over and over again. You can. change it every time. >> But so many of us keep doing something. even when it doesn't work, >> hoping for that different outcome. >> Why?

>> We don't change the email copy. We don't. post at a different cadence. We don't up. the volume. We It's just like we're. just, you know, I've got so many. friends. We'll upload a video, delete a. video, upload, you know, it's like we. don't change that and then we're still. going, wait a minute, what's going on. here? >> So my worldview on why anyone does. anything is that they've been rewarded. for doing that in the past. >> And so, you know, one of the one of the. really difficult things with language in. general is that there's descriptive and. explanatory language. And so, for. example, I'll give the simplest example.

you know, Timmy stole a bike uh because. he is dishonest. Okay. Well, if we. define dishonest, we would say, well, dishonest people steal things. But. that's a circular definition. It doesn't. actually help. The explanation of why. did he actually steal it is because he's. been rewarded for stealing in the past. and so he repeated that that action. because it got him something good. And. same thing goes for lying. Same thing. goes for cheating. All of these things. like why does someone do it? It's like. because they've been rewarded for doing. so in the past. They've been reinforced. >> And so why do people Yeah. Why do people.

uh do anything that is and and you know. my worldview is somewhat different than. I think many people's because I come. from everything from a behaviorist. perspective but it has made me. significantly better at business because. I get better at predicting behavior. And. so um I'll give you a simple example. So. um you know there was an exec at you. know one of the companies uh and I was. talking to one of the other owners and. they were like hey you know I I this guy. said that he would leave if we changed. the his title or whatever. And I said, 'Okay, well, how many times have you. changed his title uh historically? And. he said, 'Ly of times. And I said, 'Okay, has he ever left?' And the answer.

was no. I said, 'So based on his history. of behavior, I would say that he says. these things to decrease the likely that. you do it because that's his preference, but the likelihood that he quits as a. result is low. And so it's like those. kind of deconstructions, some people. just take things at face value. It's. like, well, if we look, if we actually. try and find the explanation rather than. the description of the event, we can get. way better predicting behavior, including our own. And I think that's. where like people like I want to get. back to the the the trauma of whatever. it's like maybe like can I go to this. because I think this this might be. helpful. >> So um. >> I love the direction you go.

>> Okay. So many people will will use. trauma or some event and they will. create a narrative around why why. haven't I started? It's because my dad. didn't hug me enough as a kid and I. don't have this confidence. And so they. just create this big story and then. they're like, I need to go see a. therapist so that I can, you know, untangle all of this. But if I were to. say, hey, I'm going to teach you how to. how to serve in pickle ball, right? We. wouldn't have the first session be, hey, go do a serve. And then you would serve, not ideally if I'm a pickle ball coach,

right? And then I'd say, okay, so for. the next, you know, few weeks, what. we're going to do is we're going to try. and go back in the past and we're going. to try and figure out why your serve is. so bad. And no, we're just going to say, change your wrist like this. this is how. you do it. And so it's so much more. productive to just focus on what do we. need to do instead rather than trying to. figure out uh why you did it because the. reality is you're never going to know. It's a convenient narrative and it might. make sense but at the same time it could. just be that you rewarded for doing. something like this in the past period. Now there might have been conditions. that created that reward and you can.

lament the person but at the end of the. day the only thing you can do about it. is change behavior. And so um trauma. which is tossed around a lot um I define. as uh a permanent change in behavior. from an aversive stimulus from a bad. thing. So you permanently change how you. act because of something bad that. happened. Now the question is is trauma. bad? Well did the change in behavior. result in increase or decrease in. likelihood of achieving whatever goal we. have. And so if a kid touches a hot. stove and they say ouch and then they. never touch hot stoves again then that. was a traumatic event by that definition. and it's probably good trauma because.

they never touch hot stoves again. So. decrease the likeli they die in a fire. Great. And so sometimes it's like well. then maybe we can be grateful for some. of the quote traumas that we've had. because it permanently changed my. behavior in a good way. Now if we have. quote trauma that that uh permanently. changed my behavior in a negative way. So I had you know bombs and saw someone. die in front of me and the next time I. hear a loud noise I you know I freak out. and I can't you know perform my job. Then that would be something that. decreases the likelihood. But then at. that point rather than trying to figure. out the triggering event in the past we. just think okay how can we recondition. this person under similar conditions so.

that they can act this way instead. And. so trauma what it ends up happening is. it becomes an accelerated learning. event. And so something bad happens your. brain's like pay attention because it's. like I'm going to learn and you're I'm. going to permanently change our behavior. to make sure this doesn't happen again. And so it's not this and I hear this. because a lot of people will. anthropomorphize uh you know make human. or you know try and bi biologize um. that's a word go for it. um something that occurs it's like it's. stored in your body and I was like we're. not computers right it's just that you.

have a behavior set and all we have to. do is change these behaviors and then it. eliminates and so um the reason so this. all started with feedback and so the. reason feedback is fuel and what makes. feedback good versus bad or rather. useful versus non-useful is the latency. of the feedback, how quickly do you get. it, and how specific is it? And so if. you say, "Hey, that sucked in the. moment." That not helpful. I will be. less, what it will do is make me less. likely to do the thing in front of you. Right? If you said that. >> on the flip side, if you were to say. immediately, hey, real quick, when you.

do your intro, raise your tone a little. bit at the end because I think it'll. actually create more curiosity and. people want to stay longer. Okay, do the. intro again. There, I have a very. specific piece of feedback and I did it. immediately so that the likelihood that. you change behavior is really high and. maybe that it sticks. And so the reason. feedback is full and ideally if you're. trying to change someone else's behavior. or even your own, it's like I want to. seek out very fast feedback that's as. specific as possible to the behaviors. And so um I tell the story a lot because. it's a it's a story that we tell inside. of our company because it's almost. become lore. But we had a a director. super proficient, very competent in his.

role, really high performer. The problem. was that everyone said he's such a dick. And the thing is is that I really like I. liked his performance and I want to. decrease the likelihood that I get. complained to about him. And so he had. four different people in the company. have like one-on- ones with him being. like, "Hey, I need you to stop being a. dick." And the thing is his behavior. didn't change. And so I I was supposed. to be like final boss in this situation. and be like, "All right, let's let's. let's have the sit down." And so I said, "Hey, I I don't care if you are a dick. on the inside. I would like to decrease. the likelihood that other people. describe you as one." And so I want to.

be clear. I have no judgment. I just. want to change this likelihood of this. outcome. And so that kind of took the. personal attacks out of the. conversation. And then it was like, okay, so what are the behaviors you do. skill-wise as minutely as possible that. get people to say this about you? So it. turned out it was you interrupt people. on calls, uh you tell people how to do. their jobs and and it was two other. things, whatever it was. And so I said, "So next time you have the, you know, desire to tell someone uh what to do. about their job, you have two options. Either say nothing or say, hey, I I. heard this thing that might help. Do you.

mind if I share it?" If you just say. that first and if they say no, then just. be like, "Okay, no worries." or they say. yes, then now you have permission to. share it. And when you share it, share. it in terms of behaviors, criticism, not. insult. And so I just had to change a. couple of those things. And then within. a week, people were like, "Oh my god, he's had he's a night and day. He's a. different person. They create all these. narratives. Maybe it was because his mom. did hug him. She called him or because. we told him what to do instead." And so. I I I bring this up because I think many. people do not take action around. pursuing their dreams because of. narratives that they create about their.

past. But the reality is that none of. that matters because all we have to do. is just say what do we need to do. instead under these conditions. And if. we if we take that premise then you need. to learn and learning means same. condition new behavior. And so if every. day is the same for you to your point of. insanity then you have the same. conditions and if your behavior has not. changed then maybe you are insane or at. least for at least we're expecting a. different outcome. >> Yeah. >> And so that I think makes it significant. more palatable of like just change this. one thing and then run it again. Yeah.

How does someone who's taking that. feedback, trying to get better, >> and the results just not changing, >> they're not getting closer to the. outcome? >> Yeah. >> Two questions. The first is how do you. know when it's time to give up? >> And how do you keep going when things. are not working? >> So, this is um there's a like there's a. handful of what I call like eternal. questions that can I don't think uh. they're more dichotoies to be managed. than problems to solve. And so how much.

should I consume today versus invest. into tomorrow? How much uh how much risk. am I willing to take? Uh which is the. classic should I push or should I pivot. for an entrepreneur? And the answer that. no one's going to like is that it's. actually up to you. So there's kind of. like good failure and bad failure. So. good failure is like I tried something. and I I saw that it didn't work and I. realize what I need to do instead and. I'm going to iterate continuously. Bad. failure is where I have a an assumption. that the world or the conditions were. going to be this way and my assumption.

was false. And so if I believed that. people really wanted to have uh dog Zoom. calls or whatever, right? A Zoom a Zoom. made for dogs. Let's just take a. ridiculous example. Well, then I would. have to take a couple of need to like in. order for this to be successful, these. four things would have to be true. If I. find out after starting some iterations. that one of my three or four assumptions. that underpin this being successful long. term is not true, then I should not keep. trying to pursue this. And that is where. I would say we need to pivot. In a. situation where none of the conditions.

that I or none of the the need to. beliefs have changed, all of those. conditions are still the same and it's a. it's a it's a deficiency in skill. Then. that is where I would push. >> Now, how long will it take is going to. be completely predicated on how quickly. you can learn and the quality of that. feedback. And so to your point, I think. you said coach, community, and what was. the other one? >> Commitment. >> Commitment. >> Some of consistency. >> Yes. And so um the the commitment part. um if you want to increase your. commitment in anything. So I define. commitment by uh the elimination of. alternatives, right? So marriage is the. ultimate commitment. You eliminate all. alternatives, right? And so it's like we.

want to get married to this opportunity. We get married to this business. We have. to eliminate all alternatives. Which. means when your friend says, "Hey, I. made 10 grand doing this thing." You. say, "That's amazing. I don't know. anything about that and I know I know. two months of suffering from this one. and I'm going to start at zero there, so. I'd rather be two months in on this. one." Um but the but with that push or. pivot um we have to just take things to. the natural extreme which is how I like. to do it which is okay well if I do this. for 10 years and I keep getting better. do I think it's likely that I'll succeed. and the answer is usually yes and so. it's like well then I just keep need to. keep paying down those iterations and I. think Naval said it's not 10,000 hours. it's 10,000 iterations and I tend to.

believe that. >> Your new book's called 100 million. dollar money models. >> Yeah. >> It's like you know I think there'll be. people listening who like I just want to. make 100k a year. There'll be people. saying, "I want to make 100k a month.". And then there'll be people saying, "We. want to make $100 million business.". >> What's the difference at each of those. levels? >> And what are you sharing here that you. haven't shared in the $und00 million. series before? >> So, um, I'll take those questions one at. a time. So, I'll start with the second.

question, which is, what's different. about this book? So, >> offers answer the question, what do I. sell? And so, is an offer so good people. feel stupid saying no? So, basically. broke down the components of an offer. So we gave a little example of one 5. hours for free. It's a very simple. offer, right? But there are offers that. you can include guarantees, you can. include scarcity, you can include. urgency, you can include bonuses and. then the actual core value itself. There's a way to increase the value of. anything. So we use something called the. value equation, which is probably the. most known framework I have, which is. there four people say like create value, but when you say how do I operationalize. that? If I say to a 5-year-old create.

value, they're like I don't know what. that means. And so how do we break that. down in behaviors? So one is that some. dream outcomes are going to be more. valuable to somebody than something. else. So, if I go to a guy and say, "Hey, I can make you rich." Or some or I. say, "Hey, I can make you good-looking.". Most men in general will say, "I'd. rather be rich." If you go to women, it. flips the other way. But for them, that. means that the outcome itself is going. to be some outcomes are worth more than. others. That's one element of value. The. second element of value is perceived. likelihood of achievement. How risky is. it? How likely is it to occur? So, if I. said, "Hey, I can make you rich and it's. guaranteed," it's going to be. significantly more valuable than if it's.

uh you have to take a huge amount of. risk. The third variable is going to be. speed. So from the time you make the. decision to the time you get what you. want. Hey, I can guarantee that you're. going to get rich but it's going to take. 20 years. Plenty of people make that. like but a lot of people are like well. but now this 20 years I want to get rich. tomorrow. Right? So time is going to be. component of it. And then the fourth. component is is effort and sacrifice. which is two sides of the same coin. Effort is all the things that you must. do that you don't want to do as a result. of this decision. And on the flip side. sacrifice is all the things you have to. give up that you would prefer to do but. you can no longer do as a result of the. decision. And so if we want to make the.

most valuable offer, then we want to. create something that is a huge dream. outcome that happens guaranteed, that is. immediate, and that they don't have to. do anything for. Now, no offer is that. good, but those are the hypothetical. extremes, the ideals that we strive. towards. And I think that's a beautiful. thing for entrepreneurs is that all we. try to do is just get closer and closer. to all four of those pillars. >> So that is the core of the offers book. The lead's book is the core four. So we. went over earlier. So how do you promote. anything? And so that book takes all. eight of the components core four you do. and then uh the core that other people.

do on your behalf and breaks down in. nitty-gritty detail step by step how to. do them. This book answers the question. how do I make money right? And so it's. like okay well I know what to sell and I. know how to advertise it but how do I. turn that process into making money? And. so most people uh like the thing that. separates when I look back on all the. companies that I've owned, advised, sold, um the thing that separated the. businesses that were moderately. successful from the ones that were. exceptionally successful is that they. had a better money model. And a money. model is the core economic unit of the. business. So it's a deliberate sequence. of offers that is ideally tailored to do.

one financial outcome, which is you. collect enough cash from one customer in. the first 30 days to get and service two. more customers. >> And so when you have that amount of cash. up front, then it unlocks cash flow for. the business to grow as much as it wants. or at least until the next constraint of. the business. And so when I looked at. all the money models that I created is. there's basically four four different. objectives to make that happen. So one. is how do I get more people interested? So that's going to be the nature of the.

offer. You know buy X get Y free. giveaways things like that that like. okay I can structure this thing in a way. that makes way more people interested. than just saying hey buy my thing. The. second element is okay how do I get. those people to spend more money than. they otherwise would. So there's. different money models around that. The. third is going to be how do I make them. spend their money faster? How do I pull. that cash flow forward? And then the. fourth element of good money is a money. model is how do I get them to do it. again and again and again which can. either be recurring in a membership or. reoccurring like Coca-Cola. You still. buy it again and again it's just not on. subscription. And so if you have all. four of those things then you have a.

business that can create tons and tons. of demand get lots and lots of money. upfront and get people to buy again and. again which then creates stability and. cash flow for the business long term. And so that is basically the four. pillars of the book and it's broken down. in those four steps of these are the. these are the front-end offers that do. this. These are the the transition. points to how do I get someone to take. the next thing that's going to be more. expensive or how to get to take the. bottom thing or how to create pain. points, how to create downells, all of. those components which ultimately make. businesses significantly more. successful. And I started writing this. in 2019. It was the first book that I.

started. So it was actually called um. lead lead generation to monetization. structures which you know very very sexy. name. Um but this was uh I had a mentor. that told me hey you're in the sale. process right now. you should document. all the artifacts uh kind of. crystallized knowledge at that point and. so that is what started that book. Now. offers and leads were basically that. book was like this thick and I was like. this is I can't so I actually peeled off. offers and then finished that first and. then peeled off leads and finished that. second and then finally I can get to the. money models which is actually what I.

started six years ago. >> And so I' I've I have not publicly. talked about any of the structures in. this book and I feel like I'm giving. birth I've been I've been pregnant for. six years. uh you know, conceptually. pregnant and I want to give birth to. this thing because I I think that this. will make the largest impact on business. owners bottom line of anything that I've. ever made. And it's been the source of. the vast majority of my material success. is being able to do this because when. you have a superior money model, it. gives you padding to be bad at. everything else. >> because you finally make more money per.

customer than anyone else does in your. space, which means your advertising. doesn't have to be as good. You don't. have to be as good at sales. your your. your like the offer itself might not. necessarily be as good, but when you. sequence these things together properly. the right way, then you can unlock skill. in the business and then with that cash. flow buy down that ignorance debt and. then get give yourself time to to get. good at all the other stuff. >> And what starting point would you say. this book's aimed at? Like where is. someone at in their journey? >> You can start at zero because you could. start. So what's interesting about those. four things is that you don't need all. four. You just need one. >> And over time because if you were trying.

to do a business that had all four, you. had recurring, you have upfront, like. you would be completely inundated. So, we would start with the first thing, which is some sort of attraction offer. How do we get something that's that's. more designed to get more customers or. more people to engage in your original. reachout, your paid ad, your your. content, whatever it is. Um, and so I. have the five most successful structures. that I have used and detailed step by. step exactly how to execute them. And. what's interesting is that this is the. stuff that so the offers book when it. came out, there wasn't a single other. book about offers, which is interesting. And then it became kind of a household.

name which is it was this massive gap in. the space but as soon as you see it. you're like this is everything you know. like this is how all of it works. I I. think that money models will be that. same thing where there's not a single. book that ties those concepts together. and as soon as it I think it will it. will exist in that that huge gap that. once you see it you can analyze any. business in that same way and. specifically your own. >> Yeah I love it Alex. I'm honestly like. listening to you today and and I've. consumed your content for a long time. now. listening to you in person.

consistently for this long around the. models that you've built is is a real. treat, man. It's it's it's so well. thought through. It's so systematic. I. love the way you think, the way you've. been able to train yourself to realize. that everything's built on behaviors and. the ability even something that you said. to me that's really going to stay with. me because I think about it in such a. similar way, but it's so obscure. Like. we we have a lot of similarities in our. beliefs and but some of them are a bit. more. >> from different angles, which I which I. love. >> Yeah. from different angles, but some of. them are a bit more they're from. different angles, but some of them are a.

bit more widespread held. But your one. thing you talked about today about how. when you watch people say what they. regret, >> and I think about that all the time. I'm. like, of course you regret you didn't. spend enough time with your family, >> but you're totally taking away from all. the benefits you just got right now. And. I'm not saying people shouldn't spend. time with their family. It's just when. you said that today, that was one thing. that I was like, I can't believe like to. have the ability to think it through to. that level to not just take something at. face value. And I think that's that's.

the skill I see you have. Thanks. >> Like that's the expert you're at is that. you don't take anything at face value. I. appreciate. >> and and that's hard. >> because it requires you to dig deep to. figure out, well, >> what is the behavioral science here? What is the what is the exchange here? Like what emotions are we talking about? I picked out some of my favorite Alex. Wosi quotes because I had to because. there's so many. All right, we've. touched on some of this, but it'll be. good to get your reaction to them again. All right, so. >> this one I love because I think it's so.

true. Most people want to become. millionaires because of what being a. millionaire allows you to do, not. because of what you have to do to become. a millionaire. >> What do we do about that mindset? >> It's uh it's wanting the view without. the climb. It's uh Jimmy Carr has a. great quote on this. Uh it's uh everyone. wants what you have but not what you did. to get it. >> I think that if we make who we become. the goal. rather than the thing that we achieve.

instead of winning once a decade, we can. win every day because you can. continually get better at being who you. are and then the achievement is just one. milestone along along the path. But at. least in my experience is as I've. actually approached milestones when it. becomes increasingly likely that I'm. going to achieve it, it matters less and. less. When I was in the lifting world, if I if I thought whatever my lift was. and added 100 pounds, I would be like, "Oh my god, man, if I lifted that, that. would be insane." But by the time you. actually do lift that, you also lifted 5. lbs less than that before and you lifted. 10 pounds less than that before. So, you're like, "Well, it's really not that.

big of a stretch anymore." And so, it. actually in some ways it's it's not even. nearly as fulfilling as you think it is. Cuz by the time it happens, you're so. close to it, it seems obvious. And so um. shifting from who I become rather than. what I achieve or who I become as the. achievement um has been a wonderful. reframe for like sure you want to be a. millionaire but what you really want to. do is become the person who can become a. millionaire and that you can win every. day and then that takes away the um I. don't want to do the things that. >> Yeah. And that comes to one of the. things you talk about a lot that I love.

is sense control. Like that that to me I. think one of the earliest clips I saw of. yours was someone had asked you. something like you know what do you. what's a trait you see in successful. people and I think you'd said three. things and I loved hearing that third. one. The first one was I think you said. something like. >> you know they're all people who who have. high standards so they they want they. expect a lot from themselves. Yeah. The. second was but at the same time they. they're good at not being that hard on. themselves when they don't get there. >> Emotional control. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And then the third thing was like. sense control if I'm not wrong. >> Yeah. Yeah. The other one was uh so it's. this. >> which one did I get wrong? >> No. No. It's like uh you have this uh. inflated sense of self so you believe. you can achieve great things. >> Yes. That's it. >> You have this crippling insecurity. >> that that pushes you away. Yeah. And. then the third is that you can control. your emotions. >> Yeah. And that that third and and I've. always thought it's the high standards, high grace. That's my language around. it. >> But the third one of of that. selfmastery, >> what do you think is the number one.

emotion. >> that people don't know how to control. that leads to failure? >> That is such a good question, fear. Because I think one of the one of the. most one of the wildest questions um. that I read that you know kind of stuck. with me was like. what would you do if you weren't afraid? And I think that's just a such a such a. a powerful question to ask because every. person has the the fear is the thing. that gives you the hundred reasons. And.

what's really interesting about this is. that we are our brains are exceptionally. good at finding problems which is why. I'm a big fan of inverted thinking. So, how can I think about all the ways to. kill my business and then do the. opposite? You'll your brain is so much. better at spotting problems than. spotting opportunities. And so, it's. like use that problem that problem. finding thing and then just flip it. And. it sounds like, oh, well, I would just. think of the opportunities that way. It's like it doesn't actually work. You. actually have to think for the threats. and then flip them. >> But. >> that's genius. I love that. >> Yeah, that's Charlie Mongers. That's, you know, you know, rest in peace. Um, but from a from a fear perspective, it's.

I think it's playing it out. It's like. what what am I actually most afraid of? And so fear typically only lives in the. vague, not in the specific. We tend to. catastrophize to death. So if I make. this post and people laugh at me, I'll. get shunned and then I'll eventually go. alone and then die, right? So it's like. everything just goes to like death, right? And so playing it out into the. specific is like, okay, well, I make. this post, some people will like it and. some people won't. And maybe I'll get. some negative comments. If I get. negative comments, I'll get more reach. So maybe that's not a terrible thing. And then and then that night I will have. dinner,

right? And that night I will go to bed, >> right? And so uh making making it really. really specific and then just to add one. more thing on that. The other really big. downside of being human from an. opportunity moneymaking perspective is. that we underestimate the upside and we. overestimate the downside. And that has. been incredibly valuable for us to stay. alive. >> and not very valuable for us to make. money. And so when you if you're in the. developed world, the the the absolute. worst case scenario is that you still.

have I say fortress, you still have you. still have a cover and you still have. food and you still have air and you. still have water because in the. developed world all those things are. available to anyone. And so it's like. okay so the worst case scenario is that. I live and I'm completely free and no. one bothers me. It's like you know that. actually sounds not so bad. >> when you actually play it all the way. out. And so um I think playing it out. and actually really thinking what would. I then do? Well, I probably reach out to. Sarah and she would let me sleep on her. couch. Okay. So, and I would I would ask. her if you can play. I'd be like, "Hey, Sarah, if I were to do something and I.

were to fail, how long would you let me. sleep on your couch?" She's like, "I'd. give you 6 months." And you're like, "Okay." So, it al all of a sudden. becomes concrete. And I think that that. starts to really evaporate fear rather. than like, "Oh, I will die.". >> Totally. Yeah. I remember that when I. when I made the leap. I was like, and. and of course I was in a position to be. able to say this, but I was like, "Okay, well, I'll just go back to what I was. doing. Like, if this didn't work, I will. just go back. like I'll figure out a way. >> get the job back. >> and I'll get the job back and I and I'll. and I'll go back to do it and and that. was the reality and of course it was. still at the time when I felt this was.

taking up all of that. >> All right, another one that I love. >> this this one really really hit me and. and I feel it's going to resonate with a. lot of people if you haven't heard it. yet. People fail not because there's. some magical list nobody has. They fail. because it's an obvious list nobody. does. >> I'm so happy you like that one. It. didn't like I I just just to give kudos. to Jay here, you picked out tweets that. were not like super banger high. performers, but like I wrote these and I. was like this is like this is a thing. >> I picked ones that really I didn't pick.

them based on performance. I picked them. based on like I was like I read this I. was like yes like. >> I like that. So just kudos to you for. that because I it makes me feel good. Um. but yeah, so I mean this is a super. known one but like the magic isn't the. work that we're not doing right. It's. the obvious list. um if you were trying. to get in shape, you know, you should. eat less and you should move more. You. know that. And so I used to even do. these with when I would have a weight. loss customer would come in the door and. they'd be like, "So tell me more about. the" and I would just say like, "Do we. really need to get into it?" Like you.

already know what you're supposed to do. The question is why you aren't doing it. That's what I'm here for. >> And so in a lot of these situations, like you probably know that if you're. going to invest, you should uh you know, wait 10 years. And if you're not willing. to wait 10 years, then you shouldn't buy. it. Which means that if you're like, "Well, I don't have the time to do that. research." Then don't invest. increase. your active income, right? Um and so and. all these things like, okay, well, how. do I increase my active income? Well, I. know I need to do more than I currently. am. I know I need to put my stuff out. there. And so, one of my favorite frames. around this is um it's the Solomon. paradox, right? And so, for those who. don't know in the Bible, Solomon, wise.

wise man. Um but it's called the Solomon. paradox because he gave amazing advice, but his life was in shambles. And so, the thing is is that we're exceptionally. good at giving advice and very good and. very bad at following it for ourselves. And so what's interesting is that you. they actually did studies on this where. they had people they they whitewashed. someone's existing circumstances and. their conditions and had the same people. not knowing they were criticizing. themselves give critiques to this person. what to do to improve their lives. And. the thing is is that none of the people. were actually doing it. And so the thing. is um I like that frame because if you.

parachute your sorry project yourself in. the future and look back and say okay. what would 80 years old version of me. tell me to do for some reason it kind of. like disembodies yourself a little bit. and you can get back and say well I. would tell myself to do this this and. this. And the thing is is that you have. complete context on your situation. And. so sometimes it's some of the best. advice you can get. And I know this is. kind of like the inverted thing where. you're like oh why why just actually go. through the process and say I'm going to. write down a conversation with myself. that's 80 years old. what would he or. she tell me to do? Um, and it probably. is that obvious list that no one does,

not the magical list that no one knows. Because the thing is is that like the. clues of success are in plain sight. >> It's just that the sweat that's require. the price tag associated with them is. the one that people don't want to pay. >> So people don't really give up on their. dreams. They give up they they see what. it takes to get their dreams and then. decide it's too expensive. >> And I think that's the big thing is is. they think it's mispriced. And maybe it. is. And I think that's okay. But my my. preference would be that many people. say, you know what, that's not worth it.

to me. And then be like, great, you've. won. Like, you've won. You don't need to. get anywhere. You've already won where. you're at. So that's at least my my. thought on it. >> Yeah. I love that. How does it how does. someone who listens to this episode. versus someone who applies this episode. live differently today or tomorrow? >> Well, if someone just listens to the. episode, tomorrow will be the same for. you. Uh, so that's that's an easy one. This was just entertainment for you. Just define in terms of actions what you. were going to do. I mean, that is really.

it. And so like you can prove to. yourself that you learned something from. this podcast rather than just being. entertained by this podcast by simply. doing something different, taking an. action. And so maybe it is just. recording that selfie video and texting. it to 100 people. That's it. You could. just do that and you would have I mean. you would be so much further ahead than. than you were yesterday. And what's. crazy is that the amount of uh progress. that you make in that first 20 hours is. greater than any amount of progress that. you will likely make over the remainder. of your career because going from. absolutely terrible to proficient.

happens so fast. Now, to be clear, all. of the gains come from going from. proficient to master, which take a huge. amount of time, but it's it's one of the. most exciting times because you're like, "Oh my look, I can build an app now." Or. look, I can build a web page or look, I. I can I can show other people how to. sell stuff, whatever it is. And I think. I would I would just want to get to. that, like get to that fast learning. curve as fast as you can. And the only. way we can do that is starting. >> I love it. All right, here's another. one. I don't know if it's a popular one. or not, but deleting work life balance. for a season nets you more work life. balance over a lifetime.

>> So, I I love this uh frame shift, which. is everyone talks about work life. balance, but no one talks about it over. what timeline. >> Paul Graham said this from Y Cominator. He said um in order to make a million. dollars, you have to endure a million. dollars worth of pain. And so you might. be able to endure a million dollars. worth of pain over 40 years or you can. crunch it into four crazy years and then. after that you can have whatever you. want to have afterwards. And so I I. think about life in seasons rather than. in you know on on microcosm of days and.

and even weeks and I think that shifting. that perspective will really only solve. one core problem for people which is. that they feel like they are doing. something wrong by making a sacrifice. today. And there's always going to and. again it's an eternal question. How much. do I how much do I risk? Uh how much do. I consume versus invest? These are. classic human problems that will never. have a correct answer. And it's more. what's the correct answer for you and. your season right now based on the goals. you have. And so I think if anything I. would want that quote to give some. people permission. >> to work a weekend every once in a while. to to take the five to nine on both.

sides of the day and say you know what I. am going to be unbalanced and that's. okay because at least in my observation. and probably yours I have yet to see a. hyper successful person who doesn't have. a wildly unbalanced life or at least for. a significant period of time. >> and we want to just make sure that we're. not looking at someone once they are a. billionaire and saying what are they. doing now because they might be in a. different season now and so don't look. at what you know Warren Buffett's doing. when he says, "If I make two good. decisions a year, I've had a good year.". Well, if you make two good decisions a. year, you're still probably not you're. not going to be Warren Buffett, right?

Um, and so I I think about that as my as. as a my frame. >> Yeah. Don't read someone's chapter 20. when you're writing your chapter one. Like, it doesn't make any sense. And I. remember growing up, not growing up, I. remember a few years ago when Gary. Gary's version that I loved, which was. like in his words, and so I'll say, "Eat. [ __ ] for two years and then eat caviar. for the rest of your life." Yeah. >> I'm going to be really balanced for 10.

years. And I was thinking about the. other day and you said seasons and. >> I was saying this the other day when I. was on tour. I was talking to Jesse Sler. >> and I said this to Jesse. We were. talking about something similar and I. was just like. >> I would never want a day a perfect day. is not a day where it rains, snows, sun. and fall, right? Like that's not a. perfect day. Like you wouldn't say that. You would say, "I hope it rains today. I. hope it snows today. I hope it's sunny. And I hope the leaves shed." Like, that's not a perfect day, but that's. what you want every day. And nature's. already showing you the cycles that. work.

>> Yeah. >> But we're trying to go against nature by. saying, "I want everything to happen. today.". >> And I want all my days to be over the. halfway line. >> Yeah. >> And so I think about this from a law of. large numbers perspective, which is. let's say you have 365 days in a year. Um, and there's going to be, if you. change nothing, the bottom 10% of days, you're going to have 36 days in the year. that are bottom 10% days that are, there's nothing wrong with a day. It's. just that this happens to be a bottom. 10% day. And so, I think a lot of. suffering comes from just the normal. volatility or variation that exists in.

life and then somehow ascribing meaning. to it and saying, "Oh, and because this. is the bottom 10%, it is bad." Rather. than it is sunny, it is rainy and I need. rain in order to appreciate sun. Yeah. >> Right. And so it's like we can't have. just upside. It's the trade-offs. Like I. want all the good without the bad. But. the bad is what makes the good good. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and the bad is what. sometimes what keeps you going. Yeah. >> Cuz if it was just good, maybe you'd. stop, maybe you'd give up. >> Last one of these that I wanted to pick. out, which I think is going to help a. lot of people because I've been doing it. a lot. I'm wring my third book right.

now, and this has changed my life. >> It's amazing how much you can get done. if you work for 12 hours without your. phone. >> So, I mean, >> so simple yet so profound. So I defined. so the here's the the the number one the. the highest value productivity hack that. I can give anyone. So this is the the. hack of productivity. do nothing except for the task you set. out to achieve. >> That's it. So everything that people do. in order to increase productivity that. is not working on the task at hand is by. very definition making them less.

productive like period. And so I think. people have these very long routines. I. think they have these like I got to get. in the mood. I got in this mode. It's. like what if you could start taking. action despite your mood and then get. into the mood faster through taking the. action. And so all of the things that. have made me more productive in life. have been through elimination not. addition. And so it is eliminating. outside stimulus besides the one task. that I'm working on. And so if we think. the hypothetical ideal or hypothetical. extreme of the most focused person in. the world is that that person would do. literally nothing besides that one thing. which means they wouldn't eat, they. wouldn't sleep. Now at some point you're.

like okay well in order for he has to. eat and he has to sleep. Okay. So every. other hour is just this one thing. And. so if we take that as a hypothetical. extreme, we want to approximate that or. get as close as possible to that extreme. as humanly possible. And so for me, it's. good night's sleep, knowing what I'm. going to start on the day before. Caffeinate earplugs. I I double ear. plug. I put the plugs and I put the. things on. And I work in a room that has. no windows. Now some people are like. that's depressing for me, but for me it. allows me to lose myself in my work, not. get distracted by something that's going. on outside. >> Well, I was just about to say I'm glad. you brought up environment because.

everyone has an environment they thrive. in. So I'm the same. I need I need. instrumental music. I don't can't have. music with lyrics when I'm thinking like. I just I just can't do it. So I I have. some artists that I'm happy to listen to. instrumentals of. It also can't be songs. that I know. It has to be music that's. totally unpredictable and totally random. because it helps me with creativity. >> Then I do need windows. I need natural. light, but I need to not see anything. real happening. So it's like sky tree. It's like it's uh nondescript and. there's not like a mall. >> Correct. Yeah. Not people. It can't be. people. And I I can't work in noisy.

coffee shop. Like I can't work in. environments like that. And to me, the. environment is more important than this. whole mood builder thing. >> because that's like deep work. Like. you're in the cave doing the thing. >> Can I can I tell a wild example? >> Yeah. >> So I believe you if you control the. conditions, you can control the outcome, right? If you know all the variables. And so if we want to be productive, we. want to control as many of those. conditions as possible. And so to type. hypothetical extreme, if I were to say, "Hey, I guarantee um that everybody. who's listening to this, if we were all. in one room, I could get everyone naked.

without saying a word." People would. hear that and be like, "Oh my god, that's insane.". >> What I would do is I would lock all the. doors and I would turn up the the heat. to 200 and then just wait. And. eventually everyone would get naked. And. the point to that is that we can. reconstruct the environment to get the. desired outcome if we control as many of. those variables as possible. And so you. if you don't feel as productive as you. want, you get distracted easily, you. might not have even given yourself a. shot, >> right? And if you're trying to work. while having your notifications on, while letting people text you and call. you, and you're at, you know, in a in an. area where people are coming by and.

like, is this is this chair free? Is. this table free? And you're constantly. getting pulled. It's like, you haven't. even gotten a chance. And maybe you have. a roommate who who walks in and out, maybe they listen to music. I'm like, and the thing is is that many people are. in those conditions and they're like, man, I I think I have I think I have a. medical condition. I think I need to get. medicated. And it's like, dude, you. didn't give yourself a shot. Like Jerry. Seinfeld talks about how his his writing. condition is he has a desk in a room. that has nothing else and he's got a pad. and he's got a pen. >> and he's he doesn't have to write but he. can't do anything else. >> And so if we define commitment as the.

elimination of alternatives then we need. to commit to the work. Yeah. >> Right. If focus is anything that is not. the work is not the work then that's it. And so I think that we get there through. elimination not through addition. >> Yeah. I felt that. I felt that. I think. it's going to help a lot of people. And. I I you're so right. Like even it's so. funny you say that. Up until 6 months. ago, I started to think I was like, >> has my brain just been rewired by Tik. Tok? >> Like I was like, have I really lost my. ability. >> for deep work? And I was having this.

thought probably like six maybe 12. months ago. >> because I was racking my brain about my. new book and it wasn't as clear as it. used to be and whatever. >> And I just started to do what I always. used to do. >> Yeah. And all of a sudden it's all gone. away. And I was like, I'm writing like. for eight hours a day, Saturday and. Sunday on a new book every week. I love. it. I'm in the zone. I'm in the room. that I write in. And and I was like, oh, it's it's it's right there. It's just I. didn't give myself the opportunity. because I was trying to do it with the. other. >> distress. Trying to squeeze it in. It's. like you can't squeeze it in focus. It's.

a it's a jealous mistress. >> It requires all your attention. >> Yeah. >> Love it. Alex, we end every episode with. a final five. These questions get asked. to everyone. Um, and so these are your. final five. They have to be answered in. one word to one sentence maximum. >> Okay. >> So, question number one, Alex, what is. the best advice you've ever heard or. received? >> Do so much work it would be unreasonable. for you not to be successful? >> Second question, what is the worst. advice you've ever heard or received? >> Follow your passion.

>> Question number three, a piece of advice. you wish you received sooner. Find people better than you and do. whatever you can to get them to help. you, including helping them first. without expectation. >> Question number four, a lesson that took. you far too many times to learn. >> Focus. One thing all in. >> And fifth and final question. We ask. this to every guest who's ever been on. the show. If you could create one law. that everyone had to follow, what would. it be?

>> Everyone has to give all their wealth. away at the end of their life. >> I love that one. >> But not to your kids, but not No, but it. has to Yeah, exactly. It has to be given. away. >> to kids or every or It doesn't matter. >> Yeah. No, not to your kids like to Yeah. Yeah. You're saying beyond your kids. Yeah. My friend just told me the other. day that his dad just took him out the. will and his dad's given all his money. away to charity and all the kids are not. getting anything. He was heartbroken. He. was like, "Oh god, I thought I was going. to pay off the mortgage on my house.". >> It's so funny. So, >> there's a Sanskrit saying around that. which is um.

>> uh if you have a good son, there's no. need to accumulate wealth. If you have a. bad son, there's no point to accumulate. wealth. >> And so at the end of the day, >> that's I mean that's my worldview, which. is the reason that I I want the reason. that I would want the game to be. structured so that everybody has to give. all their stuff away at the end is. because if you look at second and third. order consequences of that, the people. who are the best at allocating or sorry. aggregating capital, the people are the. best at making money uh would be the. ones who are also the best at allocating. it. And so you'd actually have the the.

best tools and the people who are best. skilled to use them. And so if you know. you have to give it away, then at some. point near the the later part of your. life, you would stop trying to amass um. and start trying to you'd focus on. giving. And I think most people who do. give get addicted to giving because they. realize they actually it fills a hole. that the wealth never did. Yeah. >> Right. And so what ends up happening. though is that from a societal. perspective is that if all the best. allocators of capital then tried to. solve all the world's problems with the. capital they had, so many fewer problems. would exist that would the whole world. would get better. The other downstream.

effect of that is that it would get rid. of a huge amount of kind of the. cronyism, the the nepotism, the things. where, you know, these these seventh. generation massive, you know, wealth uh. trust fund, you know, kids were who like. it doesn't serve the kids either. You. look at those families, they're a mess. >> Um, >> yeah. Yeah. On on on so many reasons. Um, >> and so I'm a big believer in equal. opportunity, not equal outcomes. And so. if everybody's slate was clean day one. because no one got daddy's inheritance, then everyone starts at zero as close as. possible. Obviously genetics, you know,

can can play play a factor there, but I. think that's as as equal of a start as. we can get. And then everyone starts at. zero and and the ones who super win then. turn into super givers. >> And I like that. >> Yeah. And if you don't, one thing I've. learned about that as well is if you. don't give now, you won't give later. this feeling of like when I get a. million dollars I'll give more. It. doesn't work that way. It's it's a. proportion like it will hurt 10% at a. million dollars. It will hurt 10% at. 100k. Like it's not that's not going to.

change. And another phrase that we'd. always hear in the monastery was uh God. doesn't see how much you give, God sees. how much you hold back. >> And so that's why I like your law a lot. because it's that feeling of like, >> hey, you know, at the end of it, I I. gave it all. Uh, the book is called $100. million Money Models, part of the $100. million series. Alex, I hope this is the. first of many, many conversations we. have online and offline. Truly loved our. time together. And I'm honestly, I've. become a bigger fan spending this time. with you and uh this this was a.

masterass for so many. I'm going to be. sending this to a lot of people I know. who need to There's there's some. podcasts that you do and you're just. like, "Yeah, I'm going to send this. personally to people in my life who I. think this is going to change for." So, thank you so much, man. >> I'm super humbled and very honored. So, thank you so much for having me. >> Thank you, man. If this is the year that. you're trying to get creative, you're. trying to build more, I need you to. listen to this episode with Rick Rubin. on how to break into your most creative. self, how to use unconventional methods.

that lead to success, and the secret to. genuinely loving what you do. If you're. trying to find your passion and your. lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one. for you. Just because I like it, that. doesn't give it any value. Like as an. artist, if you like it, that's all of. the value. That's the success comes when. you say, "I like this enough for other. people to see.