Africa Brooke: "Thank Me After Watching This!" - Instantly DELETE Your Fear Of Rejection

If you're in a certain room with people. that you know you're very comfortable. with, there are sides of you that you're. going to be expressing versus not. We. call it reading the room. Understanding. your environment, understanding your. audience, understanding the timing of. certain things, saying everything and. saying nothing are not the only options. Instead of saying this on social media, could I tell a friend? We believe that. if something is happening socially or. there's a crisis, people need to take. their stance online. Self-censoring is.

actually when you rush to say something. because you want to keep the mob at bay. If you repost this infographic, then we. know you're a safe person so the mob. doesn't attack you. So, it's actually. not about whether someone believes what. they're saying. We we are more. interested in the performance of things. The number one health and wellness. podcast, J Shetty. J Shetty, the one, the only J Shetty. The gamut of themes that you cover in.

this book. are what's so deeply needed for hearts. and minds in the world right now where. we're living in an age of intolerance. We're living in a society of divide. We're scared of having uncomfortable. conversations. We don't know how to talk to someone who. thinks differently from us. And whether. this is religiously, politically, even. if it comes down to career-wise, like I. think we have created a world where we. have silos and groups. And so I want to.

start off. I want to dive into so many. things with you and and I'll let you. kind of share what you want to share. before we dive in. But if I had to start. somewhere, my question would be how did. we get here? Even in in writing this. book, I had to lead with that question. because it's one of the first questions. that people ask me and very specifically. what we're talking about. We're talking. about the psychology of what we call. cancel culture, which is important for. me to actually name this very early in. our conversation. And I invite people.

just as I said those words to be honest. about how that felt in your body because. there are people that believe cancel. culture is not real. It doesn't exist. It's simply people being held to. account. And then there are some people. that believe that it's a combination of. public shaming, doxing, the inability to. disagree well, self-righteousness, all. of these are the more shadowy things. But what I've really got to discover for. myself in this 3 and 1/2 years of. writing this, but I would say the 5.

years before it, it's not a new problem. And I don't know if you found this where. sometimes we think what we're. experiencing in our timeline is. something new. I think I think it's just. a modern manifestation of tribalism. I. think we've always had silos and echo. chambers and divide and polarization. It. just looked very differently 20 years. ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago. But I. think just because something has existed. for centuries, I think just because.

something might be primal, the biology. of wanting to belong and what we're. willing to do in order to belong, I. don't think that means we need to. normalize it not working. So I think. there's a combination of things that. I'll just kind of put forward to answer. your question in a more direct way. It's. not a new problem. So I can't say this. is exactly when it started. It's. ancient. It's tribalism. We're just. experiencing it in a very different way. in modern day society. Yeah. No, that's that's really well put.

You're so right. We always feel our. problems are unique. and that no one has felt them before. and that what we're experiencing is the. most extreme version of it. Yes. Where does that come from? Where's that. feeling of like what I'm going through. has to be the worst, most highest, deepest? The thing that you're pointing. out, that question allows for me to. actually have empathy for human beings. and empathy for myself in realizing that. all I know is my story. All I know is my. experience. I am living in my body and.

my mind. I I have no idea what anyone. else is experiencing. So whether I feel. grief or pain or arousal, joy, it's a. very solitary experience. So I I think. it's so easy to believe that we are the. only ones experiencing these things. Even when someone says, "I'm. experiencing that too. I experience. fear. I have a fear of being canceled, of being ostracized, of whatever." We. can only understand it intellectually, but we never fully understand it in an. embodied way. And something that I would.

also say around this is that when it. comes to this thing that we call cancel. culture, I truly believe that it's. underpinned by selfcensorship, which I'm. sure we'll speak about in more detail, but selfcensorship is essentially when. you feel that you're going to be. punished for expressing yourself. honestly, whether it's even in how you. dress. Let's say you're from a culture. that's very conservative, but you've. wanted to express yourself in a way that. is deemed inappropriate, in a way that. is deemed maybe men shouldn't wear this,

women shouldn't wear this, whatever it. is. You believe that you're going to be. punished for your expression. And I. think the problem is that with. technology, we see that level of fear. just in a very different way. So again, these things have always existed, but. social media amplifies these things just. in a way that is very very abnormal. I I would say actually that's one of the. things that I really got to see for. myself even before this book that social. media is making us behave and experience.

some of these things in a way we just. never would. It's making us speak to. each other in a way we never normally. would, criticize in a way we wouldn't. put forward this idea of moral. perfection in a way we wouldn't, but. it's also making ourselves censor in a. way we just wouldn't in our everyday. lives. We even say things like, "Oh, I'd never. say this online.". Yeah. Or, "I really can't say this on. Instagram, but I'll say it here." Or, "This is the right room to talk about. this." We say things like that all the.

time. What is that line between self. censorship? Yeah. And then this idea of trying to be. fully transparent and authentic like. this idea that if you share everything. then you're authentic and if you hide. something then. where's selfcensorship different to both. of those because it's not either or. I write a line where I say and I start. to use this as a mantra for myself. Saying everything and saying nothing are. not your only options. I think that's.

very important. Selfcensorship is driven. by fear. Again, you believe on some. level, usually very unconscious, that. you are going to be punished if you. express what is true. If I am honest. with you right now, you are going to. ostracize me. You're going to abandon. me. You're going to reject me. But now, we're not just doing it to an individual. level. You're doing it with strangers, faceless, nameless people. You're afraid. that they're going to cast you out of. the tribe, right? So, it's it taps into.

a very primal fear, which is so normal. It's just being expressed in a way that. is not normal at all. Right? So. selfcensorship is driven by fear. Whereas I think the other side of that. is I call it social filtering. It's. something that we do all the time. You. and I if we're meeting for the first. time, there might be things that you. just won't say or jokes that you just. won't make because we don't know each. other well enough just yet. If you're in. a certain room with people that you know. you're very comfortable with. There are. sides of you that you're going to be.

expressing versus not. That's reading. the room. We call it reading the room. Understanding your environment, understanding your audience, understanding the timing of certain. things. That is discernmentled. It's not. led by fear. So I never want people to. think that any of not even just my work. but this conversation is about saying. everything because again saying. everything and saying nothing are not. the only options. that is this beautiful. gray where you get to say actually. instead of saying this on social media.

could I tell a friend. instead of thinking that I have to prove. my goodness on social media which is a. huge thing where we believe that if. something is happening socially or. there's a crisis people need to take. their stance online but can I not take. my stance or really think about what I. feel offline right so it's it's. discernmentled because another side of. self-censoring is actually when you rush. to say something because you want to.

keep the mob at bay which we see. absolutely all the time. This idea and I. I think there's something quite. religious about it. I always think of. the story of I believe it's the Passover. in the Bible where people have to put is. it blood outside of the door so that the. angel of death doesn't take their. firstborn son or something along those. lines. I sort of see what people are. demanding for people to do on social. media in the same way that if you repost. this infographic then we know you're a.

safe person so the mob doesn't attack. you. So it's actually not about whether. someone believes what they're saying. we. we are more interested in the. performance of things. But again, if. you're using discernment, you get to. say, I know I feel very scared right now. and people are demanding that I speak. up, but I'm not going to do that because. that's out of integrity, but maybe I can. have a bit of a curiosity around why. people need me to be educated on this. and do it offline, have a conversation. online. Whereas selfcensorship is either.

not saying anything or pretending to be. on board with what people want you to. say. So I want people to remember it. really simply. Selfcensorship is driven. by fear. Whereas if you're social. filtering, you're using discernment. Even if you're a little bit afraid, you're still grounded in integrity on. some level. I love how deeply you've. thought about this because, you know, being able to categorize, simplify, and. dissect all of that requires a lot of. structure and and systems because.

the mind has always found it easier to. just make it binary, right? It's always been easier. And if. you look at the structure of society, it kind of goes that way. You have Coke, you have Pepsi, and then maybe you have. RC Cola or whatever else. Like, but it's. two choices. There's like two big. places. You have McDonald's and Burger. King. You have Domino's and Pizza Hut. And yes, there's another one. But. generally, life has become divided by. there's only two teams. Like, everyone's going to hate me for saying. this, but in London, Arsenal and Spurs,

like the bigger teams, and then you've. got West Ham and Fulham and all the rest. of it. No offense, but you get the. point. And and I'm a United supporter, but sports, food, brands, like. everything you look at. And then of. course, politics, religion, this way, that way, whatever. It's just all. binary. And so we haven't really looked. at life as a spectrum. We haven't looked. at life as. actually there's all of this gray. Actually, there's all of this middle. ground. As you just said, there's a. difference between authenticity, social.

filtering, uh censorship, selfcensorship. There's all these. differences and they're different. grades. And the mind can just go, "Oh, that's too much work. I don't want to do. that.". Absolutely. And you know what? I I think. this is where I come back to cuz I I. really don't want to have this. conversation from a place of kind of. being holier than thou thinking that. people just need to speak up. People. just need to stop being afraid of cancel. culture. People just need to say what's. on their minds because I think it really.

disregards the biology of all of this. And when we talk about things being so. binary, again, it's not just all of a. sudden we're so binary. We're built in. that way because our brains were built. for simplicity. Because now when you see. the extreme of that other side of binary. is the paradox of choice where when you. have too many options, there's. overwhelm. And you kind of see this in. dating. You see this even with brands. and clothing. There's way too much that. it actually causes stress for a lot of.

people without even realizing that they. it leads you to indecision if you have. too many decisions to make. And you see. this with the political system. I think. that's the most obvious one, right? Regardless of where you are, even though. they say you have all of these other. options, it's mainly two, right? Whatever the two might be that are. propped up. But I think we need to and I know that. in my work and a lot of what I speak. about, it can be very inspiring and. motivating and it can really amp you up.

You're ready to undo selfcensorship. But. I'm also asking you and what we're. talking about Jay, we're asking people. to consider doing things that are very. unnatural because to consider that third. space and that nuance, it is not the. default for humans. So we're asking. people to kind of look at what your. existing defaults are where you want to. have good or bad, pro or anti-woke or. anti-woke to kind of simplify the whole. thing, right? But the most beautiful. thing you can do for yourself is to be.

in that discomfort of being like, okay, is there a third way? Is there a third. option? That's where the third. perspective comes from. It's a line that. I wrote in my journal in 2020 actually. when I was so entrenched in my own. binary thinking and I had no idea and I. was writing something and I wrote the. line third perspective that I'm looking. for a third perspective because I was in. like a internal desperation. I made. myself sick with self-censorship and I.

really considered myself at the time and. even now to be an outspoken person to be. someone that is confident in their. thoughts in their mind someone who is. open-minded transparent etc. But my. actions were showing me that I was. prioritizing popularity. I was afraid of. what the mob would do to me if I said I. don't agree with that or I've changed my. mind or even I don't agree with that. anymore. I did at a point in time, but. I'm I'm not that person or I understand. what the so-called other side thinks. It.

doesn't mean I accept it, but I. understand it. But I didn't think I was. allowed to even say that. And I think. that's the thing that most people. and maybe even yourself. have experienced and are experiencing in. real time where we don't think we're. allowed to change our minds. And. ultimately, that's what we're talking. about here. A third perspective means. that you have to let go of a version of. you that people might be used to, right? And that's very uncomfortable. because it's easier to be the Jay and.

the Africa that people love and adore. and people feel like there's a certainty. to your thoughts and there's a certainty. to what you will say and what you will. do and how you will behave and where. they can place you. So when you do something or even ask a. question that kind of deviates from. that, it's really frightening because. again the binary mind people need to. make sense of you. No, Jay usually does. this but now he's doing this or he's not. doing that. So I think again my work I. always like to ground it in an.

understanding of the reality of being a. human being. We're wired for binary. whether we like it or not. Even me, I. still have my immediate reactions. But. my job and a very exciting challenge. that I have is to notice and then try. and go into that third perspective to be. like, "Oh, okay. We have our defaults, but is there something that we're not. seeing?". Yeah. Right. You said something like when you when. you looked at yourself. and you realized that you two wanted the. binary. I think every one of us if we. looked at oursel,

I agree with with me too. I think we'd. find we do always slot into there are. only two options all the time. And so. you constantly have to ask yourself. what's the third perspective. This isn't. something that like one day you get to a. point and from then you always see three. perspectives because you're so wired on. a human level. So I see that in myself. that in any conversation I can so switch. into the righteous mind, binary options, uh cancel culture feeling, making big.

judgments about people over small points. of information and these are all lacking. the third perspective. And so if I don't. have this habit or this practice every. single day, if I'm not developing it. every single day and constantly pushing. myself, it's not that one day I just get. to a point where I'm now the all knowing. and all. Yeah. Yeah. All of this and and the. subtitle is brave expression in the age. of intolerance. I never want people to. think that brave expression or courage.

is some kind of point of arrival and. then you get there and then you have Jay. in Africa on the other side with a. certificate to give you to say well. done. That that just isn't how it works. And. for me, I think that's so exciting to. know that in every single moment, every. single interaction, especially your. micro interactions, you get to practice. being braver. Because something I. discovered is that I got to a point, maybe because I've been working at this. for a while and understanding all of.

this stuff intellectually, putting it. into practice, but mainly in my work and. my career and conversations that I have. in the public. But I realized that my. biggest work to do with brave expression. and not self-centering was in romantic. relationships. because again I had got to a point of. feeling so confident and comfortable. that if we're talking about societal. things or whatever it might be, okay, I. can I can hold my own. I cannot. selfensor. But in romantic. relationships, all of that would.

unravel. I would feel uncomfortable. saying my needs. I would get very. defensive immediately in conflict. I. because all of this is about conflict. avoidance. Are you willing to walk into. conflict and to be with it in a healthy. way or do you avoid it and put up your. defenses and self-righteousness? So, I. was very humbled myself to realize that. even to this day that my romantic. relationships is where I have to look. out for my own selfcensorship the most. So, there's no there's no arrival. I'm.

saying that we need to be willing to. understand differing viewpoints without. feeling like we have to take them as a. part of ourselves. Human beings make. mistakes. We stumble on our words, might. say something wrong and then you might. kind of correct yourself or whatever it. might be and then you might sort of like. it's it's human, you know, but we're. dehumanizing ourselves and thinking that. we have to be these machines that say. things in the right way. Can you truly. be fulfilled in life and still. participate in cancel culture?

You said we're trying to avoid conflict. and actually I think we're trying to. avoid conflict even within ourselves and. that's why we don't want to ask the. question, right? Like I know and I've. been thinking about this a lot lately. because I can kind of get into a lot of. dismantling identity. And what I mean by. that is what most of us do. subconsciously is we reaffirm the. identity we've built for ourself. So if we built an identity as a certain. person, a certain career, a certain. ethnic background, whatever it may be,

we reaffirm that by who we spend time. with, what we read, what we eat, and. where we hang out. And I kind of do a. lot of the opposite where I'm like. constantly questioning thoughts, beliefs, and values, and whether they. serve me and whether they're accurate. And I feel like I've gone quite deep. that sometimes I can get to a point of. like I don't even know who I am anymore. And that can be very uncomfortable. And. so I understand why people don't want to. go there because it can be so. dismantling where you've it's almost. like imagine you had a piece of.

furniture and you took out all the. screws and pieces and you just placed it. down and you're starting again to go. what else can I build from this and you. don't have the manual and you don't have. the IKEA guide and all the rest of it. again looking at them as extreme. options. One option is I keep. reaffirming who I am. The other option. is I dismantle myself so deeply that I. don't have a clue who I am. Right? And it's like well again how do we exist. in this space of well I should know how. to question parts of my values,

upbringing, qualities, character without. dismantling myself but also not. continuing to just become who I am. already walking on the path to become. Oh that's so good. That's so good. because it makes me think about another. thing that I remember writing down and. there were a couple of these things. First one was around you can be. understanding without accepting, right? Because I think, and this ties in. so perfectly with everything that you're. saying, but even if I look at it from a. societal perspective, sometimes we're.

afraid to kind of truly honor someone's. worldview because we think if I. understand you, that means I'm accepting. your world view. But even a layer deeper. than that, if I understand you, other. people will think I'm accepting. Yes. That seems to be I think one of the. biggest things that I find to be the. kind of point of conflict that we all. have that if I show empathy from for. someone from the other side people will.

think I'm one of them. So we're. dehumanizing each other but in doing. that we're dehumanizing ourselves. And I don't think we even realize that. because that means someone else might be. thinking that of you because whether we. like it or not we're all one. How we are. with each other is how people will be. with you. So when I think about what. you're talking about in terms of. constructing identity, it brings up this. the second thing that I was exploring. for myself which is. can I still have my convictions and be.

openminded? Right? Can I still have my convictions. about my identity but be open to. changing it again? Cuz that is the third. perspective. It's not about one or the. other. You don't have to be overattached. to your identity or to completely reject. your identity. You get to play with all. of the components. I like that idea of having your. convictions and still being curious. Yes. Because because that feels and and I. love that point you made going back a. couple where you made about. understanding someone doesn't mean.

accepting them. And if you're seen to understand. someone, it doesn't mean you're. accepting them absolutely by others. Why. is it important or how do we encourage. people to recognize? Because I think we. get so locked in our belief systems that. I'm right, that person is so wrong, and we don't even give them the. opportunity. And I think that's where. the fear comes from for so many people. is. I won't even be given the opportunity. to be understood. I mean, even taking.

your romantic example, is there a part of you that has a fear? Because I like looking at it. I always. say to people it's like the the micro. experiences are literally just blown up. on the macro experiences. It's not it's. not that different like we think it is. like oh I'm different in love and I'm. different but like you just said it was. like no selfcensorship is something I. can do in love or I can do it online. and and it's the same feeling. It may be. a different fear. But there's a fear that I come across. and that I see in people I talk to which.

is I feel like I won't be given an. opportunity to be understood and I'll be. judged immediately. So even if I try to. share something in a very logical, rational, thoughtful, conscious, deeply honest way about whatever belief. it is, whether it's one-on-one, whether. it's one to many online, I feel like. people are going to judge it immediately. for whether it's sincere, genuine, or.

not. And I know people who are listening. and watching have probably written posts. and edited edited edited every word. Edited every word and then deleted it or. got a text together to send to that. person and written down all your. emotions and feelings and then gone, "No, they're just going to think I'm. being too needy. No, they're just going. to think I'm being too this." Deleted it. and or or sent it and then felt, "Oh. gosh, they're going to think I'm needy.". They get a message back going, "You're. being too needy." M. people don't make us feel we have the. time to explain ourselves. People don't.

make us feel that we have the space for. them to understand us. And people make us feel that no matter. what we say, they've already made their. judgment. So then we just be quiet or we. hide or we never express how we feel. because it's safer and it's easier. Two. questions. What is lost in that for us? Yeah. And second question, how do we change. that? Like how do we get to a point.

where we. can start each other and not accepting. each other? I I really want to thank you for um. allowing yourself to express that. thought out loud because to me these. conversations is Jay, especially the. conversation you and I are having now. I. wish you knew and I'm getting goosebumps. how many people are scared to talk about. this like it's a and the fears are not. unfounded at all. We only just have to. look online, offline, have conversations. with people. When you speak to people in.

a very honest way like this, you see the. relief being like, "Oh my god, people. are willing to talk about like there's. there's a very real fear." And the fact. that you and I can sit here and have. this conversation is such a it's such a. beautiful thing because I know how many. people are so terrified. And as you were. speaking, I could feel just like a. almost sadness but also joy in my in my. chest because you're saying words that I. think about all the time and that people.

share with me thousands of people all. the time and the word grace comes to. mind and I'm going to also explore a. thought in real time with you and just. riff out loud which is what we're doing. I think this all comes back to whether. we like it or not to the self. If you. have an inability to show yourself grace. for your own contradictions, I promise. you, you will never be able to do it for. someone else. We respond in that way to. other people. Expect other people to be.

reactionary. Expect other people to. match our world view. Scan for malicious. intent in what people are saying. Why? Because we already do it to ourselves. Someone who shows themselves grace is. able to honor other people's. contradiction without thinking they have. to become or that other people might be. seeing. It's like self-s surveillance. which then becomes surveilling everyone. and everything. I think that's what it. is. The inability to be graceful with.

ourselves. I mean you're spot on. And I I that. resonates so strongly and anyone who's. watching but if you're listening I. literally sighed like I was it was so. relieving to hear that because. I think that's kind of you know it's. it's a journey I've been on and a. journey that I've I've mentioned and I. said this to you earlier. this theme of yours has come up in. podcasts in miniature moments and today. I was excited because we're diving right. into just this. I think for me what's.

been really interesting is that I've. lived so many paradoxical lives and it. took me forever to give myself grace to. live as a paradox. It took me forever. I. was self-critical. I was harsh on. myself. I was I was disconnected from. myself. There was a sense of ridiculing. myself, pointing fingers at myself. Like. there was a lot of that for for many. years. And I started to realize how.

much more layered, complex, and there. was a third version of me. And so, you know, when I lived as a monk, it was. one of the best experiences of my life. And I would never change it. I would do. it again. And it was so special. And if. you would have asked me then, I thought. I was going to do that for the rest of. my life. And at one point when I had to. admit to myself that not only could I. not do that for the rest of my life, but. that it wasn't my path. That was the first time I felt I really.

had to sit with giving grace to myself. because in my eyes I'd failed. In my. eyes I had let people down. In my eyes. people would judge me for having failed. And I felt if I leave this, everyone's. going to think I've completely messed up. and that I'm a failure and that I'm. really weak in my eyes. And by the way, there were like 10 people who knew where. I was. So it wasn't it wasn't about a. scale thing. It was just a feeling of. not only am I letting myself down,

everyone's going to be let down by my. actions. And I think everyone can relate to that. Whether it's you had a breakup and you. thought you were going to marry that. person and all of a sudden you're. thinking, gosh, everyone thought I was. going to marry that person too and now. they left me. Maybe you've had that same. experience because you had a job and. that job was going really well and then. you lost your job and all of a sudden. you're thinking, well, everyone thinks. I'm I'm a failure because I got made. redundant or I got fired or whatever it. is. Maybe you've had that experience. because you had a dream that you told. everyone you were going to chase and.

then it didn't work out and now so we've. all had that experience of feeling. canled by ourselves and others. In that moment, I remember having to go. deep and give myself permission to say, "No, I can evolve. I can rebecome and I. can keep the parts of that experience. that were true, but I can also let go of. the parts of the experience that are no. longer." And that doesn't take away from. that experience. Then I had to do it. again when I started then I worked in. the corporate world. I started to become.

a creator after that. And it was the. same thing then. It was like okay now. I'm actually going to share. And I. remember at the start people being like. well you're promoting yourself like this. isn't aligned with humility and this. isn't aligned with. being a grounded individual. How could. you make a video with this? the binary, right? You were this and by virtue of. you being a monk and this this even if. you've never said to people anything. about your desires or the way you want. to live, just by identity, you having.

that identity and that label attached to. you means people can assign anything. they want onto it and you have to. perform and to be that forever. Absolutely. And and some of that is my. own doing and I take responsibility for. that. Like some of that is definitely. something I've created for myself. So. it's not that I'm free of all. responsibility and that I can only point. the fingers outwards and be like stop. being mean and you know whatever it is. because there is a sense of like well no. that's a part of my identity that I. decided to share with you.

and and that was a choice that I made. The reason why I was walking through. that thought experiment is because this. is the conversation. And I think again. the binary is it's all your fault. You're all picking on me. I'm I'm just. doing a good job. Or the binary is I've. really messed up and you're all right. And the third perspective is well. actually there's some things I need to. take accountability and responsibility. for. Absolutely. But I hope you do, too. Yes. Because we no one's going to get far in.

a world where we don't give ourselves. and others grace. But I think we we think we hold. ourselves to such a high standard. that we then project that high standard. onto others. And I' I think it's been. said for years, I don't know who said. it, but the famous phrase of we judge. other people by their actions, not their. intentions. And we judge ourselves by. our intentions, not our actions. That's exactly it. And it speaks to the. the projection of moral perfection and.

the the reason social media plays a role. in this. said, I want people to know. that when I talk about social media, I'm. not kind of bringing it back to that. cliche conclusion where I think social. media is the problem. I I speak at it. just from a very different point of view. to highlight that these things that are. already primal within us that have. already existed within us just get a. different stage because of social media. And I think it's something to be curious. about. But I find that because of that.

kind of shame we feel because we know. we're not morally perfect because we. know that behind closed doors there are. things that we agree with that other. people would look down on us for or the. person that we used to be that maybe. we've been able to cover them up quite. well and no one else knows but there's. the shame that can still lie beneath. Whereas on social media we get to create. this morally perfect person who posts. all of the right infographics, all of. the right links, all of the right. things. They always have the right. opinion. They're somewhat of a 24-hour.

news cycle as well. So, when something. is happening, they're up to date on. everything. They're educated, right? All. of this. But a lot of the time, it's in. direct contradiction to who we actually. are. But we're so wedded to that morally. perfect avatar that we expect other. people to also have one of their own. So. if someone shows a a side of them that. is a little bit unsaavory or a little. bit inappropriate or someone who doesn't. agree with something and is willing to.

say it, I think we experience this kind. of cognitive dissonance because a mirror. has been held up. I find that sometimes. it's almost like a um. how dare you say what is on your mind. when I can't. A lot of the time it's kind of this. frustration that we have. How dare you. be free when I am in a cage that I have. constructed for myself? It's not the. story for everyone, but I promise you. it's the common story. If you were to. look just a little bit deeper to say,

why do why do I feel these reactions so. strongly when someone doesn't match my. worldview? What feels so threatening? And sometimes it's someone's freedom of. expression that feels threatening. And I. think that's a good starting point to be. honest about. literally like I'm again. I'm having just so many great thoughts. and I'm glad that we're figuring this. out in real time. I know. I mean, you you've had a lot more hours. in the space, so it's and years. But. hearing you say that, it sounds like.

there is a dual responsibility because. there's a responsibility for us, to be. able to not censor ourselves, to be able. to express ourselves, to be able to. realize there's more options, but so. much of that rests on not feeling like. someone's going to ostracize and judge. us. Absolutely. And I wonder how do we start. within ourselves? As you said, that's. really where it starts. Yeah. You said a few moments ago that because.

people don't give themselves grace for. their own contradictions, they can't. have grace for other people's. contradictions. What is the process of giving ourselves. grace for our contradictions? Because I. think. almost sometimes we don't even see them. Yeah. Like I think sometimes we're just so. self unaware. And it's so funny. I I. consider myself to be quite a self-aware. person and just two weeks ago I was. sitting there. and someone gave me some honest piece of. feedback. and I sat with it for the rest of the.

day and I was like I am so self unaware. like I'm so self unaware and I thought. about this weekend I again got some good. feedback from someone and I was thinking. yeah like I don't even see how me acting. that way could be perceived that way. but it is and whether that's my. intention or not that's how it's. perceived. But I'm so selfaware. I'm just I'm not. conscious of that. And so even as. someone who considers themselves very. selfaware. I would consider myself to be. not that aware. And so I think a lot of.

us are so self unaware where. we don't even know we have a. contradiction. We're like nope. I've. always signed up for the same thing. I've always voted the same. I've always. felt the same. No, no, no. This is who I. am. It's like wait a minute. Like you. just did something else last week to. your partner or whatever it may be. So, where do we start when we have no space. for grace for our contradictions because. we don't even know what they are? I love that question so much. And I. organized this book, but it's actually. not even really about the book. I had to. organize a lot of my own thoughts from.

my own journals and a lot of my work. with clients because I'm I'm a. developmental coach and a researcher and. I'm trained in union psychology. So my. fascination Jay is really understanding. the shadow of humanity which is. essentially what we're talking about in. that if you are willing to integrate and. understand your shadow you will. experience a more fulfilling life you. will find yourself being in more. integrity. So I organized the book in. three parts, awareness, responsibility.

and expression. And I see this as the. journey of going from conforming, whether it's conforming to ideals and. expectations of your past self, to a. place of actual brave expression and. courage. A lot of people want to rush to. expression. What do I say? What do I do? Give me this strategy, Africa, or I've. been cancelled. What do I say? It's kind. of No, we have to start at awareness. What are you afraid of? If I express the. truth, I believe that I will be.

punished. I believe that I'll be. abandoned, rejected, whatever it might. be. I truly believe that everyone has to. start there. Be honest about what you're. afraid of. When Jay tells me an opinion. that I don't agree with and I'm very. defensive and reactionary and I want to. take him down, I'm afraid of something. What am I afraid of? Right? Is it. because his worldview feels like a. threat to my sense of self? is that be. just be very honest and then the second. part where you're talking about. contradiction falls into the. responsibility aspect where I ask the.

question what do you stand for and I. always use another sort of mantra that I. wrote which says when you don't know. what you stand for you will always be at. the mercy of the external world. and that's really important I'll say. that again when you don't know what you. stand for you will always be at the. mercy of the external internal world. So. if you come across someone who's more. intimidating, someone you believe has. more status, has more power, someone who.

maybe you believe is better than you in. some way or a mob or someone who says. you need to speak up in this exact way. or use your platform, whatever it is, you will always be at the mercy of. everything else. You will never consult. yourself. You will always consult other. people before you consult you. And to. actually know what you stand for, you. need to know what your values are, which. I think is what we're talking about. And. I think a really good place to spot your. contradictions is to say, okay, what do. I value? People will usually say things.

like, I value honesty, integrity, transparency, kindness, and it feels so. good to say, this is what I value. It. feels amazing. But then I like to go a. step deeper to say the results you see. in your life right now, right now in. real time in this moment in time, they. will actually show you what it is you. actually value. The state of your relationships, the. state of your bank account, the state of. your how you behave online, whatever it.

might be, that will show you what you. actually value. So is that still congruent? the values. that you said and in the book I call it. um we have our embodied values which is. how we actually live and then we have. our desired values. who we think we are I think I'm someone. that values open-mindedness but I. promise you in 2020 I was shown that I. didn't value open-mindedness as much as. I thought which is when I started. writing this book I was shown that even.

though I was open-minded in some areas. and I was courageous and blah. I was. very fearful in others. I had moments. where I chose popularity over truth and. that is just the reality of it. So my. results at that time and my nervous. system at that time were showing me the. truth of what I valued. So I think and. there's an exercise in here many of them. but I think that's a good place to be. able to see where contradiction actually. is. What would you say you value versus.

what the results in your life are. actually showing you. I value health. I. value this. What do you watch most of. the time? What do you listen to? I value. um maybe ambition and being consistent. Okay. The results in your life, do they. show you that you value that or do you. value other things? So, I think that's a. good kind of objective way to to be. truthful. I agree. You know, I agree. I I think that's a great. reflection exercise and I love how. how simple it is, how structured it is.

and I really hope everyone takes time to. do this. I mean, I think when I hear. these things, I recognize how the. biggest challenge with all of this is. time. Yes. Because it all takes time to really sit. there and look at what is the third. perspective takes time to ask yourself, what are my embodied values and what are. my desired values and what's the. difference? It takes time. It. does. And and I find that everyone is so time. poor today. And that's why we're living. in the society we are living. You think we're time poor. I think we.

think we're time for. and. because I promise you we will watch Love. is Blind. and talk about it. the whole series in a day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. And and. that I mean I I I was looking at studies. recently because I was talking about how. couples there's a wonderful team member. of mine who named one of my. presentations. Her name's Annie and it's. called um it's called I miss you when. you're Next to me. It's something she. says to her husband. and it's this idea of how we miss people.

when we're next to them because we're. not really with them because we're. watching TV or whatever it may be. And I. looked into all of these studies which. talked about just how much television. again not television how much we're. watching streaming platforms. every night with our partners but we. think we don't have enough time with. them. And so it's you're you're spot on. You. know there is a lot of we have time. It's just that we're either too. exhausted, we're either too overworked, we're overwhelmed, we're stressed, that. love island becomes the only escape.

to let us feel like we're decompressing. and letting go. But that's the time that. we'd have to invest in. Let me ask what the third perspective. is. Let me figure out my values. Let me. let me do all these other things. And I. think it becomes interesting because. you're right, it's not time that's the. challenge. It's space and energy. and priorities. And priorities. Yeah. Yeah. And I I where I'll bring in. that that thread of empathy and. compassion again is that the world that. we live in is so overwhelming. The.

average person is, I promise you, just. trying to get by. That's the reality of. it. The average person is just trying to. figure out how do I keep the four walls. up and how do I find some level of. escapism where I don't have to think. about how much I'm working and how much. everything costs and blah blah blah. There's a reality to all of it. And I. never dismiss that. I I'm not someone. that thinks we all need to be on this. relentless quest for self-improvement. And what I I just don't I just don't. believe that. And at the same time, I.

think maybe I can offer a little bit of. relief to say we don't have to do. everything all at once. I I really don't. think we need to do everything all at. once. I don't think that we have to look. at ourselves as some kind of project. that needs fixing to be on a mission to. undo self. It's just it's not realistic. But I think what is realistic is to look. at some pain point in your life right. now because there is one and then to get. curious about it even just a little bit. I I think it's the bare minimum. That's.

what I will say. I think it's absolutely. the bare minimum. If most of us can. notice that there's a problem where. we're starting to feel even in our most. intimate relationships that there's sort. of this walking on eggshells feel and we. can't quite name it. And where where. there was a time on social media where. you were quite excited to just post. about your day and your dog and maybe. your child or whatever, now people are. terrified to even share something that. is non-controversial. And the thing that. you brought up earlier, I work with a.

lot of entrepreneurs and people that are. visible and they talk about kind of. putting 200 caveats on everything and. disclaimers and just again because we're. we want to keep the mob at bay. It might. might not be an actual mob. It could be. perceived. It could be real, but there's. a fear. There's a fear that is so. palpable and we need to talk about it. We need to be honest about it. So, I don't think we need to do. everything all at once. But I think it's. just about being honest about areas in. which you're finding yourself repressing. not even just your speech, but your.

thoughts because I think the most. dangerous thing is when you censor. yourself in your mind before you even. anyone else does it for you, you've done. the job yourself. I think that's a very. dangerous place to be in. And I call it. in my book the mob in your mind because. I think once you befriend the mob in. your mind and you just see that it's a. it's just a bunch of toddlers trying to. think how do we keep you safe? What do. we have to do? But you're you can see. the shadows so they look like giants, you know, but actually just befriend.

them and understand them and see what. are they trying to protect you from. But. we don't have to do everything all at. once, you know. And I think that should. allow for people to address that part. that's like, okay, this is great, but. what like where do I even begin? Yeah. You know? Yeah, for sure. It's it's a really. interesting thing you just said about. the shadow and the the size of the. toddlers. and it's it makes me remember like I. know a lot of us would feel that. the 1% is so loud. And so the 1% of.

people that are trolling, negative, and. even that word, it would be good to. discuss that word same as cancel. culture. But. I feel like that language around like. the comment section as we all know on. YouTube, Instagram, wherever you are, Tik Tok, Twitter, like. it's almost like it's so loud. So, you. could have, and I always look at this. paradox again, where it's like, you. could have a million likes on a post and. a 100,000 shares and 10,000 negative.

comments, but because the comments are. qualitative in some regard, Yeah. your energy goes straight there. If you. let social media teach you about the. world, it will have you believing that. everyone in the world is irrational, crazy, and just not a good person. That's only the 1% because they're loud. But that's not everyone. Like I don't. meet I meet more reasonable people on a. daily basis that I don't know. than unreasonable people. And I'm hoping.

most people would say that. Maybe not. But at least our belief system is, oh my. gosh, everyone in the world is. absolutely against me. The mob in my. mind is really loud. So how do we. reconcile that kind of. proportionality and ratio of our belief. system? Because we give more weight and. value to the mob. than we do to humanity. Yes. Because does that make sense? It does. It makes total sense. And it's. again it it brings me back to where we.

sort of started with this around. the underpinning biology of so many of. the things that we're speaking about. Whether we like it or not, we do as. human beings have a negativity bias and. it's for survival. You need to look out. for danger. But again, now it just. manifests in a different way. But also. that just speaks to the kind of personal. understanding and personal. responsibility, if you will, aspect of. things of being like, okay, I have a. negativity bias, so it's my job to.

either seek out positive things or to. notice when I'm being more drawn to it. But I think especially in a. post-pandemic world where our offline. lives and our online lives are pretty. much one and the same, our algorithms. play into the fact that we have a. negativity bias. So that is all that's. going to be propelled. I mean, you see. it everywhere. The news as well, the. news picks out specific stories that tap. into that negativity bias because it.

keeps us watching. So I think there's. kind of like a need to understand our. primal inclination but to also. understand how big media works. So I. think it's a it's a little bit of the. two because I don't think it's as simple. as. just reducing all of this to personal. responsibility. I think that's a part of. it but it's not the full picture. It's. why I really love the work of people. like Jonathan height. It's why I love. people like Johan Hari because they are.

I feel like they do a very good job at. addressing those sort of two components. The primal biological aspect of things. but being like actually we also need to. be very honest about the platforms that. are taking a lot of our time and tapping. into those biological things. So I think for me it's a little bit of. that just but awareness. It's like what. you were saying before. Yeah. knowing that if you have this sort. of thing within you where you think. you're self-aware enough, always know. there's a little bit further you can go.

Yeah. I I find that to be the block. that at least at least I find it and I'd. love to hear what people think. I find. it to be the block and we we mentioned. this when we were just hanging out. earlier. So when Africa walked in, me. and her were talking about what kind of. experience we like when we do interviews. and we meet new people and we go on. podcasts and things. And I was talking. about the kind of experience I like to. create for guests and what kind of mood. I like to set and why I do things the. way I do.

And when I was doing that, I felt a. creeping in feeling of ego and pride. And I was like, "Oh yeah, yeah, I know. exactly what I'm doing." And then there. was that inside of me. Then my egoless. mind started to get involved in the. conversation and third perspective and. was like wait a minute this is the exact. reason we're having this conversation. with Africa is to get rid of the. righteous mind like this belief system. that one is better or worse but we. really get into the space really in a. nuanced way and through all my monk.

training I got really good at knowing. even the tiniest moments when the ego. was kind of coming to the forefront. because that was such a big part of the. training we had And even then it's so. hard to calm down and connect with the. ego and and you know create harmony with. it. But I find that the biggest. challenge is the people that do say what. they feel and do express boldly believe. that they are fully right. And those of us that stay quiet, we also.

believe that we're fully right. So. there's this belief of like, oh, if. you're joining cancel culture and I'm. not, then I'm right. I'm actually doing. the right thing. And the person who's diving into cancel. culture is going, "Of course, I'm doing. the right thing.". So the belief is, how can we even try to. understand someone because we already. think what we're doing is right. If what. I think I'm doing is right from the. get-go, I have no need or space to. understand you because you're already. wrong. M.

And so that to me is at the at the root. of why there's no space to understand, why there's no space to reflect, why. there's no space to listen to you, because. I already feel I'm better in in a really. subconscious way, whether I'm not. talking or whether I'm talking. There's. no like beautifully neat answer to any. of this which I which I think is also. one of the best parts of it because it's. an ever evolving conversation. But I I.

think bringing it to that sort of. beautiful landing of finding. opportunities where you can notice your. righteous mind coming into play. that. that moment where we want to exercise. superiority and I tend to find again if. I bring the element of online because. again this is where most of this is. happening if you're just walking down. the street and you're you're not meeting. people that are just shouting at you. when you walk down the street people are. saying use your platform speak up what. they're not saying that to me either but.

when you go online it just feels like a. very different world because we've. created a very very different world. a world which needs more values like. grace and true understanding and being. knowing we can be open-minded and still. have our convictions and to not hold. them so tightly. But I think it is about. looking for where you are exercising. superiority. And I think some of us and. I had to do this need to be very honest. about the fact that when you feel so out.

of control in your life in other areas, you are more likely to try and gain. control when you're online. I think. that's a that's a very big one. People. that feel so powerless elsewhere, but. now they're in this place where people. don't have the context of your life. People don't know the insecurities that. you have. People don't know what you've. done in the you get to curate the image. of who you are. And again, we lead with. moral perfection because a lot of the. time we want to make up for things that.

we don't think we actually have. But I I. think it's that self- inquiry is so um. it's really uncomfortable. It can even. be a little bit excruciating, but it's. so liberating because you free yourself. from this sort of it's not even enough. to just call it intolerant because it's. not that. I think it's a version of you. that is so deeply unfulfilled and needs. to maintain control and power and has so.

much fear around being rejected and. abandoned. So you feel that you need to. overcompensate with a lot of these. things. But I think it comes back to the. righteous mind. You have to be able to spot your need to. exercise superiority. It's such an interesting thing. I was. you made me remember a experience I had. back at school when I used to be part of. my this is going to sound super geeky. but yeah I was part of my debate team. at school and that's good. and. I really enjoyed it because it was such.

a great learning experience. So I. remember one presentation I was probably. like I don't know 14 years old or. something like that. like young teenager may maybe 15 and. we had this debate set up I can't. remember the motion and I made a point. that completely destroyed the other. person's argument and the whole all my. friends and everyone in the audience. went crazy and was just like oh you. showed him like you know it was like. this big like kind of moment I was.

feeling myself and thinking I was. amazing. And I talked to my teacher afterwards. who asked to see me after the. presentation. and I' I'd won the debate. Yeah. And he said to me, he goes, "Jay, did. you win the debate today?" And I was. like, "Yeah, like no." He said to me, "How did you how did it go for you. today?" I was like, "Well, we won. Like. it was great." And he was like, "No, you. didn't win." And I was like, "What do. you mean? Like didn't you just see. everyone applaud and like go, you know,

crow crazy?" And he said, "No." No, he. said, "You you won the crowd, but you. lost the debate." And and I was like, "What do you mean?" And and he and he. said, "Well," he said, "A good debate is. where you have a deep understanding of. the other person's space and place. and insight. It's not that what you're. saying proves them wrong. It's that you. understand their argument so deeply that. you're able to dismantle it on its own.

It's not about yours being better. It's about you actually being to. understand it so deeply that you're able. to show that parts of it don't add up. And and it was a really nuanced profound. point for me because I just thought if. you win the crowd then of course you. win. And I think that's what the society. we live in today where it's like if. someone wins over the crowd even if. they're completely wrong we're okay with. it. Yeah. Right. Even if someone acts completely. immorally or we don't even know the.

truth, we don't know what happened. behind closed doors. If they win the. crowd, like if someone wins it on social. media and and they they're in a legal. case or whatever it is, and on social. media all goes well, even if we have no. idea what that person's moral character. is, we we're with them. Uh and you see. this on shows, you see this everywhere. And again, I'm not saying we should. judge them. I'm just saying we all. believe if you win the crowd, you won. and and so we've lost the ability to. actually say well no do I deeply. understand can I actually get context of. this person.

yes that just landed so so strongly for. me thank you for sharing that anecdote. on the debate because it's actually. write about this and speak about it a. lot because it's a big part of my story. my experience but a lot of what you're. saying directly parallels what I. experienced in 2020 as I've said at many. points throughout this conversation and. kind of reference to that point in time. didn't get very specific. 2020 is when there was a big.

conversation around race relations after. the killing of George Floyd in the US. and it ignited really important. conversations that have transformed the. way we speak about race, the way we. interact with each other, the way we. have started to just notice our. conscious and unconscious biases. But I again at that time had already. been doing the work that I do in. understanding self-sabotage, self-censorship, how do we have brave.

conversations etc. But this is all. identity, right? Even as I'm saying it. right now, it's I had been studying, I've been learning, I've been whatever. But there were aspects of what I was. doing and grounded in that was just from. the neck up, but hadn't been actually. embodied. And I got to learn that in. 2020 because I was one of the people for. a very short time but a very intense. time demanding that people speak up. about what was happening in the states. And again I use that language very.

specific because I'm not taking in the. context of where people are in the. world. What if Africa someone doesn't. have any idea of what has actually. happened? What if it's someone from. India or Kenya or Zimbabwe or and I'm. expecting them to speak up? Speaking up. meaning you have to do it online. It has. to be a performance. You have to post. something that is going to make me feel. like okay you've done this the right. way. So it's all ego because who am I as. a individual person in West London in my.

house expecting the world. When you. actually look at and speak about these. things in this way, you realize just how. it's not only self-righteous, but. entitlement is a part of it as well. That's the right word. Yeah. Right. Mhm. That's right. I am entitled to your opinion. And there. there's just so there was just so much. at play for me that was really humbling. So I was one of the people specifically. on the Tuesday where people were being. told to post a black square. I think.

most people listening to this will will. understand. And it was so out of. character, but I think I have to even do. a selfcorrection in real time to say. actually no. It was a demonstration of. what my character actually was. I. thought that it would be out of. character for me to do something like. that. But it was in character in a way, but I I was pretty much just demanding. that people speak up about race in the. way that I wanted them to. when you. could look at it and say, "Yeah, you. were inviting people to do something.

that was right and very important, but I. was doing it in an extremely intolerant. way, in a way that was pretty much not giving. people an option to speak up in a. different way. There was no sort of. third perspective. There was no nuance. There was no consideration of maybe. Africa people are speaking offline." And. I have a feeling so many people. listening to this will remember that. time and maybe the way they participated. or what they experienced because I've. had so many enlightening conversations. in the past four years about that time.

period. And I was applauded Jay so. loudly for it because I was essentially. shaming those that were not speaking up, those that were not saying anything. And. again, I would have never expected. myself to behave in this way, but guess. what? I did. And when I looked into it a. little bit deeper over time, I realized. that I was speaking in that way because. I was afraid of what people would say to. me if I didn't say anything.

So it was almost like a performance. Again, that idea of keeping the mob at. bay. So behaving in a way that you think. will appease them, but then behaving in. that way got me applauded. show the. thing about the crowd. instantly. Also, because of the time. period, everyone is pretty much online. We're on lockdown in most parts of the. world. So, the digital space was just a. very different place to be in. Things. would sort of just spread like wildfire. So, all of a sudden, I'm having. thousands and thousands of people.

applauding me and cheering me on, telling me that I'm doing the right. thing. And then I have this man who. sends me a message. He sends me a DM and. he says, "Africa, I've been following. your work for a while. I really respect. what you do and you've helped me a lot. But I just wanted to ask you, do you. think that. this is the right way to bring people. together?" Because again, I'm saying. that I want unity. I'm saying that I. want open conversations. I'm saying that. I want tolerance, but my actions are in.

complete contradiction. So someone that. had a bit of an understanding of who I. am and what I supposedly stand for is. saying, "Hey, do you think that this is. the approach to take instead of. responding to him and even sitting with. it for a while to kind of be curious. about where he was coming from, I. immediately shamed him and I did it. publicly. It wasn't extreme in any way, but I screenshotted the DM that he had. sent me and I posted it onto my main.

feed on Instagram. I guess it was sort. of a thing of trying to supposedly share. someone else's intolerance which I was. perceiving as you're being intolerant to. my again my self-righteous my opinion. matters you know and I I would also have. to be very honest with myself about the. fact that I believed that as a black. woman even though he was a mixed race. man that I had more of a right to behave.

and to speak in this way than he did So. this is where the sort of identity. hierarchy things come in where I used a. very important part of my identity to. shut down conversation which is also. something we need to be very. honest happened so much where I had the. inability to actually engage critically. and to feel what I call the initial ouch. of being like oh that that doesn't feel. so good but let me be curious about this. and just stay let me humanize this. person and realize that it took a lot.

for him to say to even open with I love. what you do. You've done a lot for me. and to pose a just a a really important. question. Actually, there was there was none of that. I made. it all about me and used my identity to. shut down the conversation because I. didn't have a response for it. So, I posted this thing and again. immediately started getting even more. applause. And I remember the feeling.

that I got. It it was it was sort of um. it was a very tiered feeling. There was. kind of like an excitement like an. exhilaration because again it's the. crowd. Think of that moment where people. you've just said something and it's like. you've just shut everything down. You're. being seen by your peers in a different. you've just won the debate, right? Is. that feeling of winning. What it does to. you sematically. It's like a it's like. an arousal of senses. It's so you see. how if you don't even pause just for a.

moment, you will want to experience that. forever. Yes. You will do whatever it takes to. experience that. And that's what I had for a moment. That. kind of exhilaration of being like, "Oh, okay." And then about 20 minutes to. half an hour later, I started feeling. sick. Like actually sick. That feeling. sort of moved from being like an. excitement which usually happens in the. chest and you can sort of feel it in. your upper body to kind of just dropping.

down to the pit of my stomach. Why? Because it was a huge integrity. breach. I was experiencing this applause and. whatever but the means the path that I. had to take to get it was not an. integrity. And I'm so grateful that I. experienced that because for some people. they will never pay attention to the. integrity breach. Most people won't even. really feel it because that sort of. sense of power and honestly power could.

just be 10 likes when you've never. received 10 likes before. It it could be. anything. It's not about scale. It's. just about what it makes you feel. You're getting a level of recognition. and applause that you just haven't had. before, you know? And I remember feeling. just looking at what I'd shared, looking. at that message again, and just feeling. quite literally sick. And I deleted it. and I didn't post anything maybe for a.

couple of days and I sent a message to. that man and I apologized. I apologized. to him for it and he was like, "Oh, that's no big deal." But that's when my. own unraveling started. That's when I. started journaling and that's when that. idea of the third perspective came. through because I experienced a level of. cognitive dissonance I haven't. experienced only at the time of. experienced that is when I finally. realized after seven relapses that I had. to get sober and nothing new had sort of.

happened. It was just like a big sort of. you dissociate and you see yourself and. you have a you have a decision you you. need to make and that's what I had in. 2020 and that's what. moved me from looking at self sabotage. from like an interpersonal. lens to trying to understand it on a. societal lens because what I had. experienced there is what we kind of. call cancel culture but I prefer to call.

collective sabotage. So, I coined the. term collective sabotage because I think. it's less politicized and I think it's a. more accurate definition of what this. actually is. We think we're doing the. right thing, but we have no idea what. we're doing. We're saying we want tolerance, but. we're leading with intolerance. We're. saying we want progressiveness, but. we're being extremely regressive, you. know, in our approaches. And I I got to. see that in myself. And I could have. taken the path of doubling down, which.

is what you tend to see a lot of the. time where people get applauded for a. certain thing and then that just becomes. and they become sort of like a. caricature of themselves. That that was. not what I needed to do. I needed to go. to the path of being like what what the. have I just done, you know, and owning. up to that publicly and that's the. process that I started to to actually. share that experience publicly and every. every other thing that I'd experienced. that was in line with that.

Thank you so much for sharing that. I. mean, it's so. powerful to kind of dive into such a. specific moment in time. that kind of embodies and encapsulates. this whole message. And to see it play out like that and for. you to have that level of intricate. self-awareness, which is what it takes. to kind of question and reflect and pick. apart and dissect your own self and how. you've done that. That takes so much. courage and vulnerability and and even.

the way you shared it. I'm I'm sitting. there listening to you going, "That's. what it takes. That's what it takes. That's what it takes.". And it shocks me still to this day that. we think that blame and shame and guilt. are good ways of changing people. I know. ourselves included. Yeah. It's like shame, guilt, and blame. are rarely. good techniques or approaches to. creating change within ourselves or.

others. When was the last time you changed your. partner because you blamed them for. something? When was the last time you got through. to your child because you shamed them. for something? When was the last time. you made yourself eat better, work out. more, or live better because you guilted. yourself into it? Maybe you did for a. couple of days. It's not sustainable though. It's. completely You're so right. They're just. such ineffective strategies. I was. speaking to my siblings about this the. other day and we were talking about we.

were speaking with a with a group of. friends actually and we're all African. We were all African in this setting. And. we were laughing about being hit as. children. cuz it was just the the normal. normal Indian families. Exactly. Exactly. You kind of laugh. about it. Everyone got beads. Everyone. whatever. And we were saying, but it. didn't work. And it didn't even really. work for our parents either. But it's. like we we do this thing because it's. always been done. And because you become.

afraid, it looks like it works. Which. reminds me of kind of pretty much what. we're talking about. Because someone is. afraid and they apologize from that. place of fear. We believe that it's. worked. We don't actually care to know. whether they've actually embodied that. apology. Are they truly taking. accountability? Do they even think they. need to take accountability for it? Or is it to keep that internal and. external mob at bay? You know, but I I think even though it sounds very. idealistic,

I think grace is truly the antidote of. so much of this, but I don't think it's. about immediately grace for others. It's. grace with the self. And grace with the. self is projected onto others whether we. like it or not. Because another thing. that I wrote in my journals was a. question to myself around that time in. 2020. And I was saying, um, can you. truly be fulfilled in life and still. participate in cancel culture? Wow. Can you truly be fulfilled in life and.

still participate in cancel culture? Because if we're having this. conversation of binary, I realize that. maybe an answer could be, yeah, you can. still be fulfilled and maybe dip in and. out of count. But I don't I for this, I. don't believe it's possible. I don't believe that you can truly be. whole within yourself. Because to be. whole is to accept your shadow, is to. integrate the messy, gross parts of you. that you would rather just.

keep behind closed doors. But you have you have to meet them. You. have to be with them. You you have to. understand that they'll other times your. your shadowy self will come out to play. a little bit more but then you have a. conversation and then it's a constant. dance. Sometimes you might need the. shadowy parts of yourself in different. ways but I I truly don't believe this is. where I'm more than happy to be. convicted in. in that you can't be truly fulfilled in. who you are as a person and participate. in the dehumanization of anyone and.

anything. No, that's super intense and powerful at the. same time because there's a. there's a sense of what I'm getting from. listening to you that. when we see other people's shadows, we're so deeply reminded of our own. that we have to project this belief that. theirs exist bigger than ours. Or. there's a feeling of. if someone shows their shadows, it gives. me the excuse to continue to show mine.

And so your imperfection allows me to. continue to be imperfect and not grow. Yeah, it's both. Yeah, it's both. It's both. It's both. And. Oh, wow. I've never heard anyone put it. in that way. Yeah. Oh, this is good. Oh wow. I I'll give an example of the. last one you've just said. Like um. almost like if you show your shadow, it's a permission slip for me to. keep showing mine without ever. questioning it. Yes. Or ever Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people that are uncomfortable.

with my work, which by the way, you can. tell me. I think it's fairly. non-controversial. I think my What am I. really saying? I'm saying that we need. to be willing to understand differing. viewpoints without feeling like we have. to take them as a part of ourselves. I'm. saying that we are braver than we. realize. We need to push back against. this culture that says we need to be. constantly monitoring what we're saying. and self-editing. I I just don't believe. we need to be doing that. But there are. some people who will say, "Well, Africa,

do you think some really dangerous. people could come across your work and. they will use it as an excuse to say. really hateful things, to say really etc. things, whatever the thing might be.". And then I always come back to why do we. always have to see why is that the. default response, right? Why do we. always have to go to those extremes? Are. you an extreme person who's resonating. with my work? Why do you believe that. you can be nuanced but other people.

can't be? Why do you believe that you can take. what you need from what I say but other. people can't? It's that thing that you. were saying before around how we believe. that our approach is the best way. Only. I can decipher this work but what if. someone dangerous comes ac? It's like we. need to grace. It comes back to grace. again. Can you have the grace to believe. that other people are actually more. rational than you've been made to. believe? And we we see in our everyday lives, you. were so right when you were saying for. the average person when they walk out.

into the world, it's rare for them to. experience something that is so it's. rare because the norm is actually just. normal people just going about their day. and but in the same way you do. So why. do you think that you are the exception? Right? Mhm. And again, these are questions and. things that I say to myself, Africa, why. do you get to be. the exception of someone that can. encounter something supposedly dangerous. and say, "I I don't resonate with this, but this is fine." Trust. Give other.

people the grace and the good faith that. they are able to do the same. Totally. Totally. I meet more kind, reasonable, thoughtful, genuine, sincere people on a daily basis. than I do the opposite. But the opposite. feels so loud online and so activated. online and so amplified online that you. can very well believe. that kind people don't exist. And I can honestly say that as as we're.

talking about this, I I want to understand from you why. collective sabotage is the right. terminology that you coined for cancel. culture. And and I want to dive into this. I've. been waiting to get into it cuz I've. I've really been wanting to honor each. thing we're discussing and not. absolutely. run through cuz it's sparking so many. thoughts. And there's a. there's a sense of cancel culture holds. people accountable. Yeah. It holds people responsible. It helps. people own up to their mistakes or not.

even own up. It helps people it helps. justice. uh be be served. How could that possibly collective. sabotage? How could that how could that. possibly be a bad thing? Even if we just. look at the word, let's start with the. word cancel. and just try to think of the the the. sort of synonyms we can think of. To cancel is to delete. It's to eject. And then you can go even further. Is to. reject. Is to when something is.

canceled, it's ended. It it doesn't. exist anymore. So I think that's a it's. a type of contradiction that doesn't. really work for me in the sense that. justice and deletion and ejection they. they just don't work together. It's the. kind of contradiction that actually. causes chaos. So for me the reason why I. think it's important to really. understand the importance of language. when it comes to these issues is because. we have a definition issue.

We just do. I think a lot of the time if. we were both clear on the definition. that we're working with, we would come. to kind of similar conclusions, maybe. different ideas about how to get there, but we'll be like, "Okay, that's fair. enough." I don't know any reasonable. person who wouldn't want people that. have done harm to be held accountable, to be truly held accountable. I don't. know anyone that doesn't truly want. progress, not some kind of utopian. idealistic type, but progress that is. grounded in the reality that works for.

most people. But if I think it means. accountability and someone else thinks. it's public shaming, we're working with. very different definitions, but we're. not even curious enough to know what. actually what is your definition of. cancel culture because mine is this and. you're like, "Oh, okay. No, no, I so to. me cancel culture not only has. definition issues but it's been so. heavily politicized to the point where. if I say I have written a book that also. takes a look at the psychology of cancel.

culture some people will think oh my god. thank god someone is talking about this. or some people will think oh you're. using the term that the right-wing uses. right so it's so politicized already so. we can't even enter the conversation in. good faith because there's already. suspicion or people thinking I'm. speaking for them or people thinking I'm. alienating them. I'm really serious. about the work that I do because I truly. believe that this conversation is not. just a nice to have. It's something that. is causing relational fractures.

Relationships are breaking because of. this. People are ending long-term. relationships because of kind of. insignificant political differences. There there are so many things happening. that would have never happened 10 years. ago. And it's not because of progress, it's because of a fear that has been. embedded into cultures and into people's. homes and beds. So I I I think it's it's. a very important conversation to have. So I think the language aspect of it is. very important. So as someone that has.

really been doing my best to understand. the workings of self-sabotage when your. behavior and what you say you want is in. direct contradiction and it causes chaos. in your life. when you have an inability. to hold good in your life, so you do. something to pull the plug. I realize. that what we're experiencing just on a. wider scale is individuals who are in. their own state of self- sabotage and. then we come together as a collective. and what do we do? We sabotage because.

it's all we know. So I think collective. sabotage to me is not politicized but. it's just much more accurate to the. reality of what's happening. Whereas. cancel council culture feels nice and. fun to say, but I think it doesn't. really doesn't really mean anything. because we don't have a agreed upon. definition of what it actually is. I fully agree with you. I don't think. anyone's ever thought to define it or. step back and look at it and and it just. feels like yeah, we'll jump on the band. magnet like this person's canled. Oh, weren't they canled? Oh, oh, isn't it. over for them?

And and it's like I always look at that. and I think about even um. even some of the criticism that the. England football team took in the Euros. and a lot of them came out and we're. just like. guys we're trying to win. and it affects our mental health. especially young players and it was so. interesting. We live in a society that. says mental health is the most important. thing. but then if we perceive what someone has. done is wrong we're happy to destroy. their mental health. instantly. Yeah. And I go back to that perceive what.

they've done as wrong because some of. it, you know, obviously there's illegal. activity. There's there's there's things. that are just, you know, that that. And again, that's common sense. We still. get to use I love what you're saying. because it's something that I also find. though that people are now needing to. find themselves doing in conversation is. to cushion everything and saying, "But I don't mean this. These are just. no cuz I found myself having to do. that." Then I'm like, "No, Africa." because that kind of feeds. into that thing of being like but I'm.

not saying this I think there's a time. and place but I think this culture has. created a thing where we're overly. apologetic for and just cushioning just. in case. which can actually remove a level of. conviction and assertiveness that is. really important and also putting the. responsibility onto the listener to say. actually but that is common sense you. know so I find that we always have to do. this sort of dance where we give like a. disclaimer I'm going to say I'm not. saying this, but also look out for where.

we're doing it because we already know. that there's going to be people. Well, what about this? For sure. For sure. For sure. I I I saw. the best version of it. It's funny you. said that. So, there was this video that. went viral a few years ago. I think it. was made by maybe maybe it was an HR. company. It was I I can't remember the. company, but they made this video a few. years ago. And the concept of the video. was there were interviewers interviewing. interviewees for a potential job. So. let's say you were applying for this job.

and I was interviewing you. So I was. asking you interview questions like give. me an example of when you've been. proactive and how would you deal with. pressure etc. And then some of the. questions became how would you deal with. pressure 24 hours a day? And then the. questions went on to say things like the. asset that you're assisting requires. constant uh attention. How would you. deal with that? So they started asking. all these questions and the interviewees. were quite like frazzled by some of. those questions. They seemed extreme. They were like that sounds hard. Like.

that's really tough. That's difficult. And then the interviewer would said we. were interviewing for the job of mother. And it was a happy Mother's Day video to. to honor mothers and just how hard they. work. Yeah. And it was this beautiful. celebration of like what a mom's job. profile would look like and just making. people aware. And the whole video was. just happy Mother's Day today. Like that. was the point of it. Beautiful video, millions and millions of views, shares, etc. And the top comment on that video. was, "What about dad's?".

And and it was really interesting. And I. and and I looked at that and I was like, "Oh, fascinating." like and it was. Mother's Day when it was made and posted. and again I was thinking I was like I. understand that like I do understand. dads are important dads are valuable. there are some people who don't have. moms who have been raised by their dads. uh I do think that. men are involved and are doing. incredible things at home and and and I. get it if I was a dad I'd probably feel. that way too but it's a Mother's Day. and it's a happy Mother's Day video. Like can we let that breathe? Can we.

can we let that have its space and not. have to make it about us? So that gives. me an example of what you just said. I. think. Yeah. No, no, it does. Even just those. words, can we let that breathe? Can we. just let that sit? Can what I'm saying. right now just be what I'm saying right. now? I ended up writing kind of like a. like an extensive section on this. towards the end of the book about. looking out for preemptive apologies cuz. I noticed I had started to do that in my. work where I was always anticipating the.

rejection. If I'm just to name it. plainly to that primal thing, I was. already anticipating the rejection, the. abandonment, the sort of suspicion from. other people or that I haven't done. enough or haven't said enough. I haven't. prioritized enough people. Even speaking. from my subjective experience, I'd find. myself and and again, we got here. because we're talking about kind of how. how important language is. I found. myself sort of being like, but I'm not.

saying this, but in in talking about. this, I'm not. Then I was like, "No, I I. can't keep doing that's not the way. normal people speak." Because we've. started to speak kind of like uh Twitter. threads and infographics and disclaimers. cuz you put disclaimers if you're. writing something. But in conversation, that is not how you. have normal convers. It's fear because I. was afraid. I was afraid that I'll be called out and. said, and then I said, you know what? I really do trust myself. I trust them. that I'm already being so mindful with.

what I'm saying. I refuse to live in. such a fear where I'm overly monitoring. and saying, "But I don't mean," no, you. get to use common sense. I'll leave that. part to you. You get to use common. sense. We're all autonomous adults, you know? And that really changed so. much for me. So, I think something else. that you can do without needing to go on. this big, okay, now I'm doing the work. is sort of just looking at your. language. Where do you have sort of. preemptive apologies of saying. maybe sharing your story anecdote then.

saying but I don't mean this and of. course I don't. where is your mind going to cover the. extremes because you already believe. that people will go to the extremes and. if they do can you sit with that discom. can you let that breathe. so good yeah and and that's the thing. what what you what you're hitting like. really strongly there is that's what. we're doing we're constantly comparing. common sense to the extreme Oh, right. That's why your point about not. apologizing is so important. because most of us live in a common.

sense. Like I would honestly say that if. anyone who listens to my podcast. regularly or has read my books, I feel knows that Jay has good. intentions. Is a good person who cares who wants to. do good in the world because you hear me. and know me deeply enough. And so for. those individuals, I actually don't need. to clarify at all because for the people. who are deeply involved in my work and. embedded and the millions of people that. do that, I feel like you know me and and you know.

who I am. Yeah. If I have to caveat everything for. someone who may come across a 30-cond. clip of me or an edited piece about me. or whatever it may be, if I'm speaking. only to those people, now I'm going to. constantly speak in disclaimers, caveats, and and everything else because. I'm now catering for the 1%. I'm not. catering for the majority of people. who are living with common sense, who. are not living in extremes, who are not. judging every word I say and analyzing. everything. But we're all scared of that. clip being made of us.

where something's taken out of context. And what does it mean when it's out of. context? It's been used in an extreme. way. Because in context, it was not. extreme. And it's only extreme when it's. out of context. And I feel like, of. course, the the ironic part of all of. this is a lot of platforms have built. their platform by being extreme. I really want anyone watching or. listening to know that this still. applies to them whether or not they have. a platform or not. For sure. Yeah, but but that's the most interesting.

thing with all of this in that. everything has sort of changed. in that everyone is now seen as a. platform. That's the that's the part of this that. makes it most interesting for me. in that every single person not even. just when you're online by the way, but. even when you're offline, you feel like. you have to be a representative for. someone or something or some kind of. stance or opinion. So even though you. might not be getting actual clips of you. being put online, it's almost like.

you're looking out for where the. snapshot someone might take from a. conversation, someone you've just met. So I think it's again that thing where. it's dehumanizing when you think of all. of this because human beings make. mistakes. We stumble on our words, might. say something wrong and then you might. kind of correct yourself or whatever it. might be and then you might sort of it's. it's human, you know, but we're. dehumanizing ourselves and thinking that. we have to be these machines that say. things in the right way. And when you. say something, you have to neatly put a. disclaimer on it. Not even just in a.

conversation like this, a public one, but private ones, too. And I actually. care more about that side of things. because I think the personal becomes the. public. It really does more than ever. So something that I always say and would. like for everyone to remember is that. your interpersonal relationships are the. best training ground for everything. we're talking about. It's not about a. public performance. I'm not trying to. tell you how to be better on social. media. I think that that's completely.

irrelevant. I think who you are in your. personal life then becomes who you are. on social media whether you like it or. not. And I I hope that can also offer. relief because it's not about teaching. you how to deal with people in comment. sections. It's allowing for you to be grounded. enough in who you are as a person and to. know what your priorities are that when. you see things in common sections, you. remember that these are strangers that. if we walk past each other right now, I. wouldn't even know that it's you. So.

therefore, you don't get to have that. power over me. You really don't. You get. to remove the charge. But I think if. enough of us give ourselves that grace. that we were speaking about, I I don't think it's a utopian yearning. for me to think that we would start to. see our social online interactions. looked differently. I think they just would. because it wouldn't feel normal for you. to leave a comment about someone's body. or their what? Because to you, you would. Why would I even say that? You know, I I. think I find myself coming back to grace.

in everything we're speaking about. I got really lucky. I was the mediator. in my family growing up. Okay. Since I was like 10 years old, okay. And so I early on had to listen to. everyone and make sense of it in order. to help everyone. Yeah. And so I've just done that for so. long that I don't know any other way. I. I don't actually know how not to show. grace or not to give someone space to.

understand because I've had to do it for. so long. And I saw it to be the most. valuable way. to create a sense of understanding of. nuance, understanding of the layered. nature of our world, understanding the. complexity I have within. And so it was. really fascinating for me because as I. started to give myself permission to be. all of myself. and I knew at the beginning of my. journey that if I I could have easily. played into the caricature of what a.

personal growth self-help individual. should look like, should do, and should. act like. And I chose very clearly. I was like, I'm purposefully not going to dress. spiritual. because. I love that. that to me is not what I learned. Like. it wasn't about what I wore or it's not. about my hairstyle or it wasn't about. the length of my beard. Like all of. those things were not the definition of.

practicing wisdom or learning the path. or following a path. And I was like also. as a kid who grew up in London, I like. street wear. Yeah. And even though I became a monk. and gave that all up at one point, when. I came back to reality, I was like, that's still a part of me. I'm still a. kid who grew up in North London. And so, I'm going to let that breathe. And at the same time, I love meditating. every day. And I do that for 2 hours a. day. I'm going to let that breathe. And at the same time, I don't care to. drink anymore. And so, I'm going to let.

that breathe. And. oh, I actually still love football. Like, it's still the first love of my. life. And I love watching football. I'm. going to let that breathe. And oh, you. know what? I actually do like certain. comforts and things. Okay, I'm going to. let that breathe. And yes, I gave them. all up at one point. And what I found was really interesting. is the more genuinely transparent and. authentic I was about giving myself. permission, the majority of people saw. that and loved that and I felt so much. support and love, but then the 1% feels.

triggered by that. And then you start. questioning whether you should curate. your whole life for that 1%. Because this is also our professional. life, not just our personal life. Yeah. And I've constantly gone more and more. to say, you know what, I'm just in a. place in my life where I just want to. let it breathe. I'm not going to stifle, curate, perfectly present because I don't want. to be 30 years older and look back and. go, gosh, I've just don't know who I am.

anymore. Absolutely. And it came with who we had on the show. like we had podcasts with guests that. I remember when my comment section was. sunshine land. because it was just this small beautiful. place. where it hadn't yet scaled enough but it. also hadn't we we weren't doing things. maybe that pushed the boundary or pushed. the envelope. and as soon as we started to do that you. start to see the conflict you start to. see the disconnect I guess the point I'm. making is an interview didn't have to be.

me saying I agree and accept accept what. this person is saying unless I actually. say I agree. Yes, maybe it was for me to understand. someone's experience. Maybe it was for. me to understand someone's story. Going. back to your language of the difference. So when did an interview become an. acceptance of someone's beliefs? Isn't the point of an interview to. understand. someone's perspectives and so I started. to see you know judgment of what guests. we had or whatever. like we you know I. remember again this is the 1% I want to. say to the majority of people but it's.

so interesting how you start seeing it. and it was like I would see every time. we had a celebrity clip there'd be the. 1% of comments that go Jay why are you. only interviewing celebrities I'm like. wait a minute if you look at the 52. guests we had this year. I promise you there's not 52 celebrities. in the world and if you look at the. guests you'll probably find two to three. guests a month that are not celebrities. and by the way the celebrity. conversations are also human. conversations they're humanized. conversations about mental health, wellbeing.

to me that. you start having to explain everything. And and then I got to a point where I. was like, "No, those who know me know. me.". Yes. And those who don't, I truly wish them well and I hope they. do expose themselves to more of my work. because I think they will if they look. beyond one episode or one page of a book. or one clip for 30 seconds. And I hope. that you you do that and and I hope that. I can connect with you one day. But I'm. not going to try and cater and curate. myself for the 1% because I don't want.

to live that way. And I trust that the. common sense and the lack of extremes is. where the majority of the world lives. and that's where we all want to live. together. I love that. I love that so much because. it speaks to exactly what I had to do. and what I encourage anyone who's even. visible in some sense, especially online. to pay attention to where you might be. creating an audience that will never. allow you to change. because that's what I noticed for myself. in 2020. So after that thing happened.

and I was getting applauded for it and. there were people that dropped off, people that were like this is so out of. integrity compared to what you have said. and who you are as a person. And I. completely understand that now. People. that could see the intolerance for what. it was. Maybe some dropped off silently, some might have said something, but the. majority was the crowd and the applause. and it triggering that sort of elation. and power and arousal whatever it might. be. But once I changed my mind and sort.

of walked back that behavior and saw it. for what it was, I had a lot of people. drop off, people that didn't appreciate. the nuance and the grade that I was. bringing forward. There were many more, but again, it's that it's that seemingly. 1% or at least the the minority, right? There were people that thought that I. needed to speak and think a specific way. because I am black, because I'm. left-leaning, because I'm progressive, because I'm XY Z, whatever the identity.

markers are. There's an expectation for. all of those things, you know. So, when I did change my mind and. started exploring a lot of the themes. that I explore today, there were a lot. of people that were very uncomfortable. with that. Similar to what you're saying. about everything is fine when you're. sort of abiding by what is expected, but. when you deviate from that norm, there's. there's a lot of teething issues and a. lot of friction and a lot of, you know, creating space for new people to find. you, whatever it might be. But a lot of. people felt uncomfortable. But what I.

loved, Jay, is that a lot stayed. There were many that felt uncomfortable, but they stayed. There were very few. that sort of declared their departure, which is always lovely when people. announce that they're unfollowing. But I I I love that actually there were. so many people that even in the. discomfort, they stayed and they. listened and they got what they needed. And that's where again I really choose. to.

focus Yeah. on the people that didn't. allow the cognitive dissonance to sort. of make them reject and cancel and. discard and. devalue everything they had got from you. for however many years or however many. episodes people that chose to be like. okay I don't quite like this I don't get. it but I'm going to stay you know and I. think to me that's the most beautiful. part of all of this you get to be. uncomfortable you maybe get to have a. little strop. but you stay you stay and you find out. why you feel that uncomfortable and you.

repair because it's conflict. You need. to repair. It doesn't mean you accept. Doesn't mean we go to the to those. extremes. Well, what if it's No, we're. talking about the common sense everyday. interactions of discomfort and an a. world view that kind of pushes back. against your own. You get to stay and. you get to repair if not with the other. person, with yourself. Yeah. M so so beautiful and and fully. agree like I can honestly say that too. that that's what makes me believe the.

work is happening. Yes. When we can sit in the discomfort and. and when we can look beyond also unsaid. cliches like I remember I've I've never. been a proponent of the old cliche of. money doesn't buy happiness. I' I've. never written about in books. I've never. spoken about it. I'm never like hey you. should never achieve something like. that's not who I am that's not even my. thought process and some but sometimes. the the background of monk people assume. that's what you believe.

right. it's so funny I've never said it but. it's an assumption I've never said it it. doesn't exist like I don't I've never. I've never said that because I actually. believe that people need to change their. relationship with money they need to be. more abundant with it and that's not. just money it's just one thing but. whatever else it may be I don't believe. a simple life and an ambitious life are. in congruent. I don't believe that a minimalist life. and extravagance are in congruence. I I. don't believe those. I.

I I actually believe that the paradox is. where the magic is. I I actually believe. that I was saying to someone yesterday, you need the perfect amount of anxiety. and the perfect amount of inspiration to. win. You can't have a life just of. inspiration and you can't have a life. just of anxiety. And so even in those. the paradoxes where you win because you. need a bit of pressure and then you need. a bit of purpose and you need both. If. you just had purpose it wouldn't work. It it needs both. And so. similarly I think we draw from these old.

cliches and these old traditions and old. belief systems. and project them into the new world. And. I feel like that limits us from allowing. ourselves to grow and others to grow. because we do the same to ourselves. where it's like, "No, no, no, but you've. always been a simple person." And this. really hit me when I I heard this this. statement of like how in the Bible it. says the common quote that's always. given is money is the root of all evil. But actually the original quote is that.

love of money is the root of all evil. Oh wow. And that is such a. the cont. the context. it's such a different way of looking at. it and I was like wow like we have. propagated not and forget the the. difference we have broadcasted and. propagated false information as correct. uh and and not even false incomplete. information is a better word incomplete. information. and it's been broadcasted and that's. what we've all lived by and all of a. sudden when you zoom out and look at.

context you're like wait a minute that's. actually a totally. But we've all built our entire mindset. in the truth. If that isn't a representation of so. much of what we see today and. immediately I thought in bringing it. back to the personal, it makes me want. to get curious about where in my life am. I living according to an incorrect truth. or even a truth that I didn't choose. Um,

yeah, that's so yeah, a truth that I. didn't actually choose because I often. think about how many absolutes we have. on our identity that maybe you didn't. even choose. Maybe they were chosen for. you by a parent, chosen for you by an. audience. Because I'm this, I shouldn't. speak about that because I've been. writing about this. I can't pivot into. so many of these things that we decide. are actual fact. Even things that we. think we don't like. I don't really like. this much. I don't really like hiking. Have you been hiking? You know, it's.

it's some things that are kind of. seemingly obvious, but when you pause, you think, "Oh my, when did I decide. that. or who decided that for me. that I'm supposed to have this opinion. because of my identity? I'm supposed to. wear this?" I think in the beginning. when I was talking about expression, I. might have spoken about kind of what you. might wear because I find I like to. bring all of this kind of to the. everyday. Even what you adorn your body. with, it can show you what you believe.

you should do and you shouldn't do, what. you're allowed to do and what you can't. because of your age, because of who you. are, the colors. Oh, this is too bright. It'll be who who told you why? Yeah, you know, there's so many little moments. where you get to say where am I kind of. being not even just out of integrity, but censoring my expression, not even. just what I say. I think we tend to. think selfcensorship is just about what. you're saying. It's actually who you're. being. It could be in your body. language. When you walk into a room and.

you kind of just slouch a little, you. you make yourself invisible. Whereas if. you were to just put your shoulders back. even just a little bit, even just your. chin up just a it communicates just a. very different thing. But there's a. different vulnerability to it because. it's visibility. It's actually being. assertive in your body. Right. And that's vulnerable too. It's so vulnerable. Yeah. Whereas people see that as. confidence or arrogance or it's not seen. as vulnerability because we've created. these outer shells of what qualities. look like.

We've created these external avatars and. embodiment of what humility should look. like. or what arrogance looks like or what. good character looks like. And it's like, but rarely is it that. obvious like rarely can you you can't. see someone's heart. Like you can't see someone's soul. You're not seeing someone's genuiness or. sincerity through a snapshot of their. life. If I always think about this. example of if you were running late to.

the movie theater and you walked into. maybe even the wrong screen, you might. think that the hero is the villain and. the villain is the hero. How do you know? I remember there was. this. I I think it actually was. Yeah. And. it's like how how do you know who the. character is. because of one snapshot of their life? And I think cancel culture and so much. of it is based on this idea of here's a. snapshot of this person. I'm not going. to give you the full story, the full. picture.

It reminds me of when I was doing this. training and there was a photo. It was. it was just about that. It was about. context essentially where there's a. photo of a woman on the floor and a man. sort of standing up with his hand there. and immediately you think that he has. pushed her onto the floor but then they. widen the photo and you sort of see that. she had tripped and she had fallen and. he was actually helping her up and. reminds me of exactly that. You know, we. see an image or a moment and we create. an entire story or we see a subtle.

expression on our partner's face and we. create a story about what they mean. They're upset with us or maybe they. don't want to do something when Yeah. without even asking. Without even asking and that's the and. that's where the I think that's the. third perspective is so much of our. perspectives are built from one. narrative. Yes. Yes, I think that's the point that our. understanding is about people, beliefs, what's happening in the world are all. generally built from one narrative. So what I always ask people to do is. reflect on like what would it feel like.

if you were judged on your worst moment? What would it feel like if you were. judged on your worst day and what would. it feel like if you could never ever. come back from that because you'd be. cancelled for it? And what did help you. become accountable? What has helped you become responsible? What has helped you have behavior. change? Because we also want to take. that into account. What has it been in. the past that has really encouraged you. to go, you know what, I'm going to be.

better. I'm going to change. I'm sure it wasn't you being told by. your family member, never come back to. the house. Yes. I'm sure it wasn't someone saying to you. like, don't ever come back here and. you're not wanted here. Reflect on that. And then also reflect. on just that negative negativity bias is. so strong. And I want to ask you two. questions. Not that I think we haven't. answered or maybe we have, but I think. they're important to ask because I see. them being what people are thinking. about. So. two questions. The first is.

when is it okay to cancel someone? And second question is there anyone who. doesn't deserve grace? I will answer. that from my current definition of. cancellation which is exile deletion. It. implies that there is no rehabilitation. It also presupposes that people cannot. change ever. So by virtue of those. things and me actually believing that. it's possible to transform, me believing. that rehabilitation is very important.

because it's the only way people can. actually integrate that shadow that. we're punishing them for. So I I don't. believe I don't believe that to be true. at all. However, I think we can address. the harm that has been caused and I. think we have to give the person whether. we like it or not the grace and grace. does not mean acceptance of what has. been done. It just doesn't. Grace means. I'm going to humanize you so I can. understand. And in understanding, I'm.

able to give a solution or give myself a. solution and peace that is actually. sustainable instead of. believing that you have to be punished. for the rest of your life. Again, that. snapshot in time. And I know that what. I'm saying is very difficult because it. can be applied to so many things. But I. encourage you to use common sense. I. encourage you to use discernment. And I. also think it's okay to have your. convictions where you can't be moved. Say, you know what? I could be. understanding around this, but I'm going.

to choose to stay in this conviction. I. think we get to do that when it comes to. things like abuse, when it comes to. human rights, when it comes to things. that is just so disturbing and. unfathomable. I have to make peace with. the fact that people will deal with it. how they wish to. But I'm speaking to. that middle that exists for so many of. us. And I believe that grace, even if. we're so uncomfortable, is the only way. you can understand. And that doesn't. mean you accept. So I think that kind of. answers both. It answers both in different ways.

Yeah. Yeah. I I I fully agree with you and and. I I I'm glad I asked it because I always. wanted to get that kind of like. the encapsulated thought process almost. of the belief system. And it's good to. hear it that way because. I I agree with you. I think that humans. have amazing ability to transform when. given the opportunity. I also think that. so much of the culture today writes. people off over very little information, inaccurate, incomplete information or.

misrepresented information. Like it's. not even as clear and also in not. understanding what you what someone was. even trying to say in the first place. And so it's coming from such a. uneducated. Yes. Guess often. And and like you said, going back to where we started, it's. what we do to ourselves. It's what we do to all of it. We beat ourselves up. If you didn't beat yourself up so much. or shame yourself, often in unconscious. ways, by the way, because I think so.

many people, again, we have so many beliefs about who. we are, what we stand for, etc. But our. actions, especially our default actions. and default responses, will show us what. we're really working with underneath. But a lot of us do live in shame. A lot. of us are very embarrassed about some of. the things that we have done and said, the people that we were in the past. A. lot of us are faced with our. contradictions. We don't know what to do. with them because we have we live. according to labels, you know, whether.

it's ethnic labels, political labels, identity based labels. So you believe. that because I'm this label, I shouldn't. think in this way. I shouldn't speak in. this way. Why do I kind of like this. person? So you you're always grappling. with so many things, but what do you do? You just shove them down and just hope. that no one. you being no one, the first no one. No. one ever discovers them, finds them, but. they have to express themselves somehow. and that creates more shame. So I think. because we're working with so much shame. and we're not willing to do.

kind of the self inquiry because it's. it's not that comfortable. We just don't have the capacity to be. graceful with anyone. We just don't. Whereas when you look at even just one. area of your own gross stuff, the kind. of stuff that you're like, you don't. know what to do. When you spot it in someone else, you're. able to be a little bit more. understanding. You can go the way of. being of rejecting it because you're not. ready to face yours. But if you can face. yours, you you'll be kind of in the.

grays a little bit more. Yeah. Or you. just wouldn't participate. You might not. say or do anything, but you would not. participate in the sort of cancellation. and take down of that individual in the. same way. You would think there may be. other methods for accountability and. personal responsibility, but it just. wouldn't be in line with dehumanization. It just wouldn't be. Yeah. And I think, you know, we get. there, Africa, because I think sometimes. people feel they've been so forgiving.

They've been so graceful. They've given so much grace and it's. been so exploited. Yes. That now they're so scared. of giving that. But was that grace or did you just not. have boundaries? Cuz there is a difference. Mhm. You get to be graceful and still have. boundaries. You get to say again, you. get to say, "I understand, but I will. not accept." Some of us think grace is. being passive or fing. or but that's not that's not grace. Grace is still very strong. It's. convicted. Grace says no, this doesn't.

work for me. I don't agree with that. But your heart is open, you know. That's. exactly. So grace is not having no boundaries. Yeah. Exactly. Now we have to define. these things because I think these words. have such again they have their own. connotations and baggage. and I think grace feels like this all. merciful allencompassing feeling of just. no matter what you do I'm right here. just take yeah that godly grace. and this again it comes back to the.

extreme conversation. where we're not talking about grace in. extremes we're talking about grace in. very practical robust. and even the idea even though I'm not a. religious person Something I love about. religion is that so many of them share. the same threads. It's like one big. tapestry with all the same threads. And. from my understanding, even a loving God has boundaries. The. ten commandments exist. There are sort. of um principles in which are the. guiding systems. And to me, those. principles are put forward in a very.

graceful way, but they're still very. boundaries. You know, there are lines. there's still. a level of needing self-discipline and. control and not just a chaos, you know. Absolutely. Absolutely. There are so. many amazing chapters in this book. I. want to name a few chapters of my. favorite that when you get the book, I. want you to dive into deeply. Of course, read the book in order, but some of your. favorites. Uh, chapter eight, be quick. to listen, slow to speak. Beautifully. put. Again, Africa's magician with. words. So, number nine, I love this.

because we talked about it, but not in. this language. honest conflict or. dishonest harmony. And I know that I'd. rather live in honest conflict than. dishonest harmony. Yes. Did you want to say something to that? Do you No, I'm just I'm just giving people that. If. you want to, please don't. No, no. This is perfect. Uh this one is uh probably one of my. favorite chapters as well that's in. there. You owe the internet nothing. Chapter 4, really important one to read. with the age that we're living in. Uh, and chapter 11, a great one to look.

forward to, one before the end, which is. brave expression, a price worth paying. Uh, and and I can honestly say that in. trying to bravely express myself, the. freedom and liberation that I have felt. internally is priceless. Despite the. minority experience of the external, the. the internal feeling, and I always ask. myself, how will I feel about this at. the time of death? I always ask myself that because that's. the price for because at that point I'm.

not going to think about comments and. I'm not going to think about DMs and I'm. not going to think about followers. I. don't think any of us are. I don't think. any of us in that moment are going to. go, "Oh, well, I wish more people agreed. with me or knew who I was or knew what I. stood for." I don't think that's going. to be what's going through my mind. It's. going to be did I serve? Did I live? Did. I allow myself to be? And did I become. all of who I felt like becoming in order. to help and improve the lives of others.

and share everything I had to share? Those are going to be the questions I. ask. So why not make those the questions. now? Because I will only answer those. questions if I ask them now. Yeah. I will only find the answers for the. rest of my life. But if I wait till the. time of death to ask them, I'll have no. time to answer them. You're going to make me cry. That was beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not really much more. to add to that to be honest because I. was just receiving.

everything you're saying and I feel it. so deeply and it's just a reminder that. a lot of the things that we think really. matter that we really just double down. on. Won't even matter. Not even just at. the time of death, but next week. You. wouldn't even be able to remember the. specific disagreement you were having in. a comment section with someone or the. way you were applauding someone's. downfall. You know, it's not going to be. it's not going to add anything. It just.

takes. It takes and it takes and it takes and. it takes and you will you will always. feel that in that sense of being. unfulfilled which comes back to the. thing I was saying about if you are. truly fulfilled in who you are as a. person. you just would not participate in it and. if you did it would feel like a huge. integrity breach. It it would. immediately it would. so powerful Africa I. hope that this is the first of many. conversations for us. Yes, I have deeply enjoyed it online and.

offline. I hope so. Uh we end every. episode of OnPurpose with a final five. which each question has to be answered. in one word to one sentence maximum. Uh. sometimes I go off pie but uh Africa. Brooke these are your final five. So the. first question is what is the best. advice you've ever heard or received? There is no such thing as failure only. feedback. Love that. Uh, second question. What is. the worst piece of advice you've ever. heard or received? Be yourself.

That's great. Cuz the bitterest teachers that I've. spoken to say which one, which I love. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Uh, question number three, how would you. define your current purpose? Mind and tongue liberation. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's my that's my. soul work for the meantime supporting. people with mind and tongue liberation. and and sometimes we feel that. liberation is. saying what we want when we want how we.

want no as we've spoken about. it's about being so discerning even when. you're not using your tongue knowing. what you could say. but holding it. I think there's such a skill to not just. communication there's such a skill to. being human and I just I I just find it. so. cool that we can realize something is. working or not working and do more of it. or less of it and kind of play every. interaction. Again, I I think the beauty.

of this is testing it out in the micro. interactions. From the moment I leave. the building, from the moment we finish. and I say goodbye, can I maintain a. little bit more eye contact? Even though. eye contact can feel a little bit. uneasy, can I stand up straight with my. shoulders just a little bit more? There's there's so many things you can. do and I I think the mob in the mind is. it's really important for us to befriend. it and to understand it because then it. decides what roles of the tongue and. what stays. So my mission and my purpose.

is supporting myself and people with. mind and tongue liberation. I love that great answer. Uh what's. something that you used to value that. you no longer value? Escaping. M. and I did it specifically through. alcohol and other drugs before I got. sober. I I valued it. a lot because I thought that was the. only place outside of my conscious mind. where I could feel safe. So I I place so much value into it. But. now I value clarity.

It's beautiful. Yeah. And fifth and final question, we asked. this to everyone who's ever been on the. show. If you could create one law that. everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? It would be that if. you find yourself outside and you're in. a space with other people, you have to. greet one person at least once a day, a. stranger to just say hello or to sort of. recognize someone cuz I think something. really beautiful happens when you. sort of say hello with a stranger, whether you actually say hi. or it's just like a acknowledgement. I.

think everyone has to do it at least. once a day. Yeah, that's great. I love that. Africa. Brooke, everyone. The book is called The. Third Perspective: Brave Expression in. the Age of Intolerance. Go grab your. copy now. And Africa, thank you so much. for being here with me. Uh so excited to. deepen our friendship and get to know. you better as well. And all the best. with everything you're doing to bring. the third perspective to everyone in the. world. I'm so grateful for the work. genuinely and I I loved every moment of. this conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. This has been so special. I.

feel so inspired, so excited, but also. just so grateful because again, I I've. said it a couple of times, but this. conversation and the different paths. we've taken are really scary for a lot. of people. And some people, they might. think, well, what what is there to be. scared about? But we have created a. culture of fear and a culture of. intolerance. But I'm so hopeful. I know. that a lot of the stuff was spoken about. is a bit dreary. a bit. But I am so so. hopeful about us as human beings and the.

fact that we can have this conversation. It's just so exciting and I think we get. to laugh about it. It's serious, but. it's really I I mean it's it's also. again at the point of death, a lot of. these things will not matter. I think we. have to fight for our joy. And I think. one of the ways we do that is through. conversations like this. So I'm just I'm just so grateful. I. can't wait for many of them. I mean, we. were already chatting away. before we pressed record. And I I'm I'm. just so so excited. Thank you for your. support. It's priceless to me. So, thank.

you. Thank you. Hey everyone, if you love. that conversation, go and check out my. episode with the world's leading. therapist, Lori Gotautle, where she. answers the biggest questions that. people ask in therapy when it comes to. love, relationships, heartbreak, and. dating. If you're trying to figure out. that space right now, you won't want to. miss this conversation. If it's a. romantic relationship, hold hands. It's. really hard to argue. It actually calms. your nervous systems. Just hold hands as.

you're having the conversation. It's so. lovely.