10 Years After Losing Her Husband: Lucy Kalanithi Reveals the Truth About Grief No One Talks About

10 years after losing her husband, Lucy. joins me to explore what grief looks. like after a decade. >> He ultimately got the news that he had a. chest [music] X-ray that essentially. looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was. like dense with tumors. We both knew. what it meant. I never thought I was. going to feel okay. It was like Paul. died and I was like, it's all over. >> What did being so close to death [music]. teach you about life and living? >> There's two big questions. What would be. [music] left undone? and how can I live.

most fully in the time I have left? [music]. >> Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's. guest is Dr. Lucy Kanathy, 10 years. after losing a husband, bestselling. author and neurosurgeon Paul Kanathy. Lucy joins me to explore what grief. looks like after a decade, how love. evolves after loss, and what being so. close to death can teach us about being. fully alive.

Lucy Kanathy, welcome to On Purpose. >> Thanks for having me. I have waited for. this conversation. since I've read the book and when breath. becomes air and I read it. when I still lived in New York when I. moved to the states and it moved me so. much because I hadn't really come across. a book like that that felt like it was. written at such a powerful moment and. such a pivotal moment in someone's life.

>> and then to have your reflections within. it as well. It's kind of left an imprint. on me and then my team and I were. sitting down and we're thinking about. books that had had an impact on us as a. team and and this came to mind. immediately and so I can't tell you how. grateful I am for your time and energy. for the trip over here. I know you've. traveled here especially to be with us. in LA and just want to start off by. saying thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Tell me what does it feel like.

remembering Paul 10 years on. I used to. think life was like a mountain that you. climb. Like I'll follow the path and. then I'll get where I'm going. And now. like having lost Paul, having taken our. daughter from being a baby to now being. a seventh grader, I think of life much. more as like a series of moments. In a. way, it's like that my marriage and. Paul's illness and even medical school, right? Those were all mixed together. Medical school, residency, being. married, losing him. That was like a. chapter. And now I'm in such a different.

chapter. It's actually kind of amazing. for the opportunity to like dip back in. like to get sort of like talking about. Paul in a way that's really embodied. because you're also experiencing him and. we're talking about him in like in a. real way. And at the same time, he's. like sprinkled through my life all over. the place. Like, you know, I'll go. through like a breakup and think like. what would Paul say, you know, in this. situation to me, to him. And also just. like what would Paul think of Katie? She's so different. She's such a like.

singular specific person, not a baby, you know? So, I guess like the things I. can say about it are like 10 years on, you know, I never thought I was going to. feel okay. It was like Paul died and I. was like, it's all over. Who am I? What. happened? Like, it's me and I'm here and. I have this baby, but I'm so lonely. How. is this ever going to fill in? And my. mom said like things will fill in. It'll. become okay. And I was like, I literally. don't believe you. But it's like things.

do like things become okay. And then at. the same time, like even after you lose. someone, like they don't even remain. static even though they're gone. Like. you're not static. You continue to learn. new things about them. You know, with. Paul, I hear from Paul's readers about. his book. And that's sort of like an. ongoing relationship with him through. other people. Anyway, I guess it's all. just like a beautiful, terrible mix. Thank you for sharing that. Is there is. there anything you understand. differently about Paul?

>> Yeah. I mean like the thing that makes. me feel like when it burst into tears is. actually a thing I don't yet understand. which is you know Paul he was a doctor. He was a young neurosurgeon. really interested in meaning and. mortality like thought he would become a. professor of philosophy or a writer and. then sort of surprised himself by going. into medicine. um and was incredibly. intoxicated by neurosurgery because the. brain is just an organ in our body like. our liver, like our heart, but then it's.

also the seat of identity. And he was so. interested in okay, if you're undergoing. like brain trauma, a stroke, you know, a. tumor, how does that alter your identity. and meaning, but also how does like. neurosurgery alter your sense of. identity? He was really interested in. patients who were facing like upheavalss. in meaning and identity. Then he himself. became sick, had to face this whole. upheaval, had to face the end of his. life. And I felt like as Paul was going.

through this serious illness and dying, I really felt immediately in it with. him. I felt so like fused with him. We. had to do so many things together to. take care of him, to make sure the book. got written, to cope, to like show up. for each other in like every way. But I. wonder whether. like when and if something happens to me. and I'm sick and dying if I'll read. Paul's book and see how much I didn't.

understand. >> and see like new things in the words or. like reflect on his experience and think. like oh was he alone in that and so like. that sort of breaks my heart like what. did I miss. >> you know in answer to your question of. like how have I gotten to know Paul. differently yeah I mean when someone. dies like stories come rushing in and. then I think reading his book at. different phases of my own life I even. get different things even though I knew. him so well. Um, and then I think you. know just the process there's a flip.

side which is like how to not flatten. someone after they die. Like I think. like when someone dies they're sort of. suddenly they become like so amazing and. perfect and I can't believe we lost this. person and all those things are true but. at the same time it's like he like you. know left his socks on the floor and it. annoyed [laughter] me like you know just. he was just a regular person and he was. funny and he drank too much whiskey and. he like just he was like textured you. know and so I often think about like all.

the things I do remember about him. How. do I keep those like in memory and keep. him like complicated instead of like. mythic? >> Both of those answers to what you said, you almost feel like you don't. understand, which maybe you never will. until we're all in the same position and. going through something similar. And. when we're facing not loss through. someone else, but loss of ourselves, >> right? >> There may be certain things that we miss. on that journey and we we don't. recognize and and maybe we shouldn't.

until. >> sure. Yeah. I couldn't. Yeah. Exactly. But then on the flip side, the idea that. you're saying that. >> it's almost like. >> sometimes we don't celebrate people. until they're gone. >> Sure. >> And we only see all the bad things. >> Isn't that interesting? >> Yeah. And then as you're saying on the. flip side, when someone goes, we only. see the good things and we don't And. it's so fascinating how the mind does. that, >> right? >> I guess he would know as a neurosurgeon. like he'd know why we why we do that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and where that comes from. Like.

why is it that we kind of. >> right like what's the neuroscience of. grief? >> The neuroscience of that grief of how we. block people's good things when they're. alive and block people's you know bad. things when they're gone and. >> right or is it about remembering like. remember to notice when you have your. person here and then yeah when they. leave remember to yeah don't forget. >> when you hear the age-old phrase time. heals all wounds how does that sit with. you? I mean, it's sort of like. simplistic and it actually makes it. sound like the wounds will then go away.

And so, I don't believe that part, but I. do believe I do think time heals all. wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry. was writing about grief and he said. something like um grief is a wound that. fers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't. agree with that because if something. fers, it's like untended, right? And so, I do think like there will always be a. scar. There will always be something. that looks different, feels different, something you're carrying, something. you're literally carrying on your body. Like that's also how grief feels. I.

think if you can sort of think to. yourself like it's going to be okay in. some way. You just don't know what okay. means and like sort of let the pain move. through you. You will end up somewhere, you know, that's different and better. than you thought. >> Yeah. It's it's interesting how all. these statements have stood the test of. time. But they have so much nuance when you're. actually living them. >> Yeah. Yeah. And some of them don't work, right? Like or you you have to decide.

which ones work for you. Like if someone. sends you a card with something on it or. if someone says, you know, everything. happens for a reason and you don't. believe that, it's not helpful. But. you're right. I think many of those like. things in literature, sayings like that. hold up. >> What do you feel about that one? Everything happens for a reason. I don't. subscribe to that necessarily, but I think more than I did before, I. think when hard things happen, I do. believe something beautiful will come. out of it. >> Something even if the only thing that.

comes out of it is that you suffered, which connects you to every human being. everywhere across time ever. and then. potentially deepens your empathy for. other people or deepens your ability to. be a friend or you know whatever it. might be. So, and then I think like. >> suffering. Have you read Man's Search. for Meaning? >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. No, it's so gorgeous. No, no, you're saying Yeah. I'm not.

surprised you read it. That's why I say. and like Victor Frankle who you know. survived the Holocaust in a. concentration camp and then went on to. become a therapist afterward. He talks. about witnessing all of these people and. how they survived the unservivable. And he ends up talking about like how. purpose or relationships like you. wouldn't survive just because you had. those, but you could only survive if you. had something you were waiting for or. someone who was waiting for you on the. other side. And ultimately he ends up.

talking about how suffering is actually. a really meaningful part of our lives. He says like his construction is that. meaning comes from three things. And he. says he conceives of work and love and. suffering. And I love that. He says work. is like the things you do and create you. know like the imprint you leave on the. world. Maybe love is like all the types. of love between people and then. gratitude also and just like love at. large. And then suffering. He talks.

about how like suffering is not this. sort of like side event that you wish. would go away. It is here. It will be. here. >> Whether something beautiful comes out of. it, whether it connects you to other. people or whether just like the pure. achievement of just persisting alone. >> I think there is like actual meaning in. that. And so I think the idea of like. everything happens for a reason. It's. like a reason will be found but only you. can find it. No one can tell you what it. is and no one can tell you that it's.

okay. Like that's only yours and maybe. it takes years. >> I appreciate that and the idea that. there wasn't some predetermined reason. or some reason that had to be the way. It was a a journey of discovery. >> Yeah. And I think some people think that. and that's also like a beautiful story. or a beautiful you know. >> what for you was actually helpful as you. just talked about the need for. relationships, the need for meaning. What was useful to hear from your. relationships at the time?

>> Yeah. >> And what do you find useful now? >> Yeah. >> And helpful. This isn't about other. people actually, but this was a really. helpful thing for me is. um so Paul got sick and we were both. doctors and there was something in that. that was immensely helpful. and obviously like the privilege and. logistics and all of that kind of stuff. that came out of like being a healthcare. person and a doctor was very helpful. But the thing that was the most helpful. was having spent years and years taking.

care of sick people and their families. and thinking like terrible things can. happen to wonderful people whether it's. like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of. cancer. And so when he was diagnosed. like at one point I was like whatever. you need to do to cope go for it. Like. would you like to punch a wall? We have. all these walls. Like they're all yours. And he was like I don't need to. And I. was like, I don't need to either. >> Like what's that about? And I think it. was kind of like,

>> okay, turns out like it's our turn to. like be the people who are doing this. So it was really helpful to sort of like. have that perspective. And Paul in his. writing wrote, you know, like people. often ask, don't you ask why me? And he. said, well, why not me? Which I think is. really beautiful. Yeah. And in terms of. like what was helpful for us in terms of. coping, I felt like the most important. thing was just to feel witnessed. I. actually didn't need anyone to try to. fix it, to try to like say something.

that was going to fix it or that it was. okay. Like one of the best condolence. cards I got after Paul died was it just. said this sucks really big. And I was. like oh so amazing. Like and it also. wasn't like too flowery or too. >> like perfect or whatever. It was just. like this is how this person feels. This. is definitely how I feel. Also, it's. still funny. Like even when you're. dying, you're still you, you know, like. >> you're still funny. Like one thing that. did that was really helpful for Paul. actually when he was sick, you know, he.

was a 36 and 37year-old neurosurgeon, right? So he's used to being like like. healthy, dominant, in charge, in. control, and then like loses all of that. in an instant. So when people would come. to visit and hang out, they'd say like, "Okay, I'm coming to visit. Like, what. can I do that's helpful?" And I was. like, "Just come and hang out and like. be just like be you. Like be funny. Like. ask Paul for career advice, you know, if. that's what you would do anyway. Like.

just because he's dying like doesn't. mean he doesn't want to know what's. going on with you. He's not like. radioactive. He's not different. You. know, I think illness can be so. flattening. And it's like people get. sick and it's like humor zips out of the. room. Like sexuality zips out of the. room and like you're just like I'm still. me. Like I'm still me just the same and. and losing all of these abilities but. also still have all these capacities. So. I think just like making room for. people's full self and people to be like. agentic and be if that's a word be an.

agent. >> and like be a full person. >> I think we all lose our powers when we. love someone and they lose someone. >> Totally. And I think for a lot of people. listening and watching, I think. >> a lot of people become distant. >> Totally. Cuz you don't really know what. to do. Yeah. And I think like showing up. is half the thing. And then also it's. like I do think there's something to. like being specific, you know, like. people often say like, "Let me know if. there's any way you can help." And you. really mean it. >> And I've done that. But I think when. you're the sick person, it's like you. are quite overwhelmed. And so it is.

useful to just like keep offering a. little thing with no pressure. Like I. had some friends whose baby was in the. hospital and the husband was like the. best thing anyone ever did for us was. say like I'm at the mall next door. getting a burger. Like what do you want. on yours? I'll drop it off in 20. And. they were just like the works. Thanks. And then like they have to talk to the. person like just like you know that kind. of stuff. Hey like do you need. babysitting this week? Like let me know. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm dropping off food. Do you want. me to ring the the doorbell or just let.

you know? Just text you when it's there. just like something that has no pressure. but also is like present and keep doing. it. >> What do you think most people. misinterpret about grief? >> One thing is like, oh, if I say. something, I'm going to remind her or if. I say what if I say something and I make. her sad. And I think when you're a. grieving person, you're thinking about. it all the time. It's present for you. all the time. And so I think if somebody. says like, "Hey, I heard what happened.

I've been thinking about you." you know, hey, I heard what happened. Like, how. are you doing today? Um, is there. anything you can do? It doesn't remind. you. It just makes you feel seen and. connected at a time when like it's. really hard to feel connected. My mom. said this amazing thing when we were. growing up. She used to say, "When in. doubt, describe." And it basically meant. like even if you don't know what's. happening to for you or even if you. don't know the perfect perfect thing to. say, like you can just describe what's.

going on. So, you can just say like, "I. heard that so and so died. It's really. sad. I've been thinking about you so. much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to. say and I don't, but I want you to know. I love you.". >> And like that. Doesn't that sound so. cozy and nice? And it's like they didn't. have to say a special perfect. >> wise thing they just described, >> you know? So, I think that's also really. helpful. >> Describing what you're going through is. sometimes better than trying to say the. perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah.

Absolutely. To just be like, "This is. the worst day ever.". >> Is this hard? >> Yeah. This is hard. Yeah. This is This. is really difficult. >> Is so much more I don't know. There's. something about it that opens up the. heart rather than closes it. >> Totally. >> Yeah. Just It's almost acceptance. >> Yes. Can I just come sit with you? This. looks so hard. >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. To admit that. to ourselves. That's what we struggle to. do. What was I've It's been really. interesting as I was preparing for this. interview. I've had friends who've I.

mean I've lost friends to cancer over. the last few years. I've lost spiritual. mentors. I've lost friends. >> Yeah. >> And different scenarios, but I had a. friend recently who is going through it. in the States. >> His partner's a doctor, but he's not. >> Yeah. >> And his partner. wasn't as supportive as he wanted them. to be. Ah, >> because to him cancer felt like the big. C word that was scary from the moment he. heard it. But her take was you're going.

to be fine. They're going to figure it. out. >> And I was wondering what were the kinds. of conversations you both had as both. being doctors and what was the most. important conversation you think you had. at that time? The way Paul got diagnosed. was um he'd been getting sicker and. sicker and then he ultimately got the. news that he had a chest X-ray that. essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I. mean, it was like dense with tumors. We. both knew what it meant. You know, we're. going to the hospital tomorrow for for a. CT scan. It's going to show, you know,

metastatic cancer. And it was so. interesting because as we were packing. for this hospital stay, he was going to. go and get expedated workup. I was. packing like practical things like phone. charger, insurance card, like fuzzy. socks or whatever. And he packed books. It was so interesting. He packed um. Being in Time by Haidiger and Mirror. Christianity by CS Lewis and then a. novel called Cancer Ward by Souls Souls. Nitsson.

And it was this sort of like immediate. recognition of like the doctor stuff is. not going to help me. like I need to. turn to words and literature and or I. just need to turn to like the human. experience of this and for him that was. like oh I'm back to literature. >> So that was really interesting. I think. one of the most important conversations. was right away which was we ended up. looking at the CT scan ourselves and. sort of like wordlessly absorbing this. diagnosis of like it was like looking at.

a patient's scan and then you're like oh. my gosh it's you like it's you. And then. we like got into the hospital bed. together and then he said, "I want you. to remarry. before we almost talked about anything, which was really beautiful, like. beautiful. and felt so sort of like shocking at the. time." But then there's like all these. layers to that. Like the biggest one is. like I love you into a future where I.

will not be there. Like that's amazing. That's such a like an amazing kind of. love and people have it, right? People. have it for their children. People have. it for their SP. It's like I love you. forever independent of my existence, right? But he also was saying with that. sentence like it was so stark that it. was kind of like, okay, I'm going to go. I'm going to go there immediately and. then implicitly tell you like we can. talk about anything. And that was really. helpful, like super super helpful. And I.

think like the battle metaphor for. cancer is so pervasive. Like it started. with like Nixon's war on cancer, but. then now it extends to like individual. level. Like we'll beat it, we'll fight. it, we're going to win. >> Surviving. >> Yeah. Surviving. And I think that. metaphor is so flimsy, you know? >> Interesting. >> Like it's sort of like there's winners. and losers and there's like one thing. you're supposed to do here and it's just. like survive at all costs. And I think. there's like when you survey people with.

cancer, there's like so many things. people hope for. It's like people hope. for dignity. People hope for like. functionality as long as possible. People hope that their loved ones will. be okay. I don't know. There was sort of. just like this paniply of hopes. that I think like we knew to like. sidestep the battle metaphor, which was. really helpful. And then I think part of. that was just we knew how sick he was. >> We couldn't get away from it. We could. not escape like understanding how sick. he was, which was like the worst part,

but in some ways the best part. >> cuz then we could decide what to do. >> What I'm hearing you say is that it's it. wasn't the the doctor conversation or. the medical conversation because that. was almost accepting what was in front. of you. >> Yeah. >> But it was the conversations that you. both allowed each other to have beyond. the knowledge that you both were aware. of. >> Like luckily and at the same time like. I'm making it sound easy and it like. totally was. It was so so painful and. like so confusing and just so like it. took months months for us to like even.

feel like we had our feet on the ground, you know, >> and then things are like it's a. constantly shifting landscape, you know, >> and he's going through his emotions, you're going through yours. Like. >> I can't imagine that they align every. day, every moment. Totally. >> But I wonder about just the work that. you're doing as well. And as we kind of. navigate this conversation, I'm like, I. know that in my life, when I lose. someone I'm close to, especially when. they're around the same age, there's. something different than when I lose.

someone older. Because at least when someone's older or. at an age that feels appropriate. >> for loss, there's that story that you. can tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of. my monk friends. He was still a monk. when he passed away. We lived in the. monastery together, but he passed away a. few years back now and he died of stage. 4 colon cancer. >> Yeah. >> And he was like maybe 2 years older than. me. >> Yeah. >> And I remember watching him through the. whole journey, present with him, talking.

to him on the phone, seeing him when I. could, when I went back and visited him. And I almost feel like I learned so much. more from him about life than I've ever. taught or known. Yeah. >> And I wanted to know like what did being. so close to death teach you about life. and living? >> Yeah. It's hard to separate actually. like being so close to death and being. so close to Paul [laughter]. because it was like so embodied, you.

know? And it's funny. It's like you're. talking about your friend dying and like. what a surprise that is when someone. young dies. >> and it's like the way I've ended up like. conceiving of it is sort of like turns. out that's what was going to happen. Like that helps me a lot actually. I. think like being so close to someone. who's dying. actually taught me something about dying. which is that until you die you're. alive. You know like what happened for. Paul was like he got he was a. neurosurgeon got diagnosed with cancer.

worked for a year as a neurosurgeon. Like this is who I am. This is what I. care about. Then I got pregnant during. that year on purpose. Then he had sort. of serendipitously. and because he was a beautiful writer. transitioned to writing first essays and. then a memoir. And so he sort of like. built a new vocation during the time. that he was sick. And it's like he was. so sick and so like debilitated and.

still like physically still and like one. you know he was ill and at the same time. he was so like engaged in what he was. doing like so just sort of like. intellectually engaged in the world of. ideas and in the world of relationships. too like being a new dad. And it was. just really interesting to to see like. one of the book reviews of Paul's book. was by this doctor named Gavin Francis. and he wrote like this book is. unforgettable or this book is something.

it is crackling with life. And I just. remember thinking like oh how amazing to. be crackling with life when you're. dying. And I think the same thing is. true with aging. The same thing is true. with like disability or patient. It's. like there's this idea that like, you. know, something about like a human. identity is taken from you when you're. aging. But it's like some of my favorite. people are little old ladies who are so. giggly and hilarious and like not afraid. of anything, you know, and like I used.

to think like little old lady and now I. think like gosh like Spitfire who like. knows everything and like you know. nothing shocks her. And so I think the. thing it taught me also as a doctor, you. know, like just how totally human like. everyone is, you know, and I think when. you're at work as a doctor, there's so. much dehumanization. It's like you're at. work, you're rushing around, you're. hungry, you have to go to the bathroom, you have to get to the O. And so it's. like all of the families like sleeping. on the sofas outside the ICU are sort of.

the furniture. like they're the. furniture at work because you're doing. your job, >> but also it's like you're constantly. toggling between like this is the worst. day of this person's life and I have 36. minutes with them. And then in answer to. your question for real about like what. can dying teach us about being alive and. living? Dying is like the one of the. most human things we do. It's like it's. too big for any model. It's too big for. a medical model. It's too big for like a. lot of religious models. It's not a.

medical event. It's like a human thing. Frank Ostacees, he's like a Buddhist. teacher who founded Zen Hospice in San. Francisco. So gorgeous. He's so. beautiful. And like he talks about how. dying is all about relationships. So. interesting. It's like your relationship. to yourself, your relationship to people. you love, your relationship to like. holiness, whatever that would be. He's. like it explodes every kind of. relationship. And then Ira Bay who's. this like really beautiful doctor um.

here actually talks about like having. worked with a lot of people who are. dying and then like you know what they. have to teach to people who are living. and he's like it's two big questions. that he uncovers and he says what would. be left undone or unsaid if I died now. you know like how can I live most fully. in the time I have left you know and I. think there is sort of a like. transcendence in just like death is not. like something that happens like at the. end of the road. It's like it is here. all the time. It is something you can.

like tap into like finitude or. transcendence like even like a traffic. jam and you're just like road rage. I'm. going where I'm going. I hate these. people. They're in my way. Like it's. like no like you are the people. You are. the traffic. >> Everyone in this traffic jam like was a. tiny baby like will be on a deathbed has. someone who loves them who will be like. bereft when they're gone. like God. willing, right? And so like suddenly. zooming out to that, you're like, who. cares about the traffic? Everything's.

beautiful. So I don't know. I think. there's like a real like luminosity. that can be found. >> like when someone's dying. >> and then at the same time like traffic. jams suck and like. >> you know when someone's dying you also. have to like make dinner and you know. pick up the prescription. But I think. it's like a constant toggle between like. >> zooming in and zooming out. and transcendence, you know, which is like hopefully what we can all. do like every day. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is zooming in,

zooming out. And as you said, Yeah. Like. for a few months now, my team and I have. been creating these. >> zoomed out versions when you were. describing that. Yeah. >> Of almost like city crosswalks, uh, parks. Yeah. And we just we place these. little thoughts on what everyone's going. through. >> What? And and people are like moving. around in the park or sometimes it's. >> you like ascribe like a story. Correct. >> Oh, I play that game with my kids. >> Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, no way. Tell me about. that. >> We just play that like at dinner and.

stuff. We're out to dinner. I don't know. what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. We'll be like, "What are they talking. about?" And then you'll be like, "Oh, this person just walked by like his. dog's name." Sometimes it's just sort of. like silly. It's like his dog's name is. Peanut. And just make it up. But. sometimes it's like, >> "Oh, like do you think he's just gone. through a breakup? Like look at his. face." like just we just sort of make it. up like as a way to pass the time but it. is sort of like an empathy game. >> Absolutely. Yeah. So we're doing exactly. the same thing except creating it on. social media and sharing them as stories.

for people to zoom out a little bit and. so we'll take different scenes whether. it's an airport or whether it's a park. or whether it's a crosswalk and we'll. have lots of people walking around and. we just put little stories on on top of. them. I love thinking that way. >> because I always know that if I cut. someone off in traffic, I feel I have a. good reason. >> Sure. >> But if someone cuts me off in traffic, >> the fundamental attribution, they're an. I [laughter] have a great. reason. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, what are you trying to show? Are you. just trying to show like everyone has. like a rich life as rich as yours?

>> Yeah. And we're not alone in our. suffering. >> Yes. >> So, you may feel like you're suffering. right now. You're definitely not alone. >> Right. that everyone you meet may simply. be projecting their own suffering onto. you and it isn't a reflection of who you. are. >> Oh, totally. >> And everyone has a story. >> Everyone has a thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so just trying to help us, >> I guess, transcend. But then I like your. version of it's still traffic. [laughter] So I need to make one of that. one. So I need I think we need to end it.

with that. I think you found the perfect. >> end. Cool. It's so cool. I can't wait to. see that. >> J. No, as you're saying, it was just I. it's it's helpful hearing it from you. I. as you're answering these questions, I'm. so honestly like it it's stirring so. much within me because when you sit down. with someone who's really done the work. and really had to work through grief and. really had to think through this loss on. such a personal level, your answers are beyond any. logic in a beautiful way.

>> Thanks. and they're they're. counterintuitive almost and that's. what's so. helpful and refreshing and yeah, >> you know what's so weird though is like. partly it helps you and then partly it. doesn't cuz like the next thing that. comes is also really hard. Like. >> sometimes I think that about talking. about Paul and like going through that. experience. Like Paul's memoir came out. a little under a year after he died and. then I immediately went on a book tour. like an unexpected book tour.

>> and was like processing in real time. like what had happened really just like. aching through grief and describing it. And now I'm describing like I went. through this process and what came out. of it which is like a wonderful thing. But then like the things that are. happening for me, like I talked to. somebody the other day actually who said. this who said like, "Oh, I'm raising. this like challenging teenager and it's. the hardest thing I've ever done." And. then she was like, "Well, I told a. friend that." And the friend said, "Wait.

a second. Like 12 years ago, your wife. had cancer and you had young children. Isn't that the hardest thing you've ever. done?" And she was like, "Oh, it is. It. definitely is. But right now, this feels. like the hardest thing. like it's the. new hardest thing, >> you know, but at the same time, I think. you end up realizing like, okay, I've. done a hard thing before, you know, like. Jane Fonda on um Julia Lou Drifus'. podcast, >> she was like, people always say that. being old is hard. And she's like, no, being young is hard. She's like, being. old is amazing. Like,

>> you've been through so many things, you. know, you can do it. And I was like, that's awesome. >> If we're able to pull from that well. >> Yeah. of experience and tragedy. And if. we're able to look at it and go because. I think I think I think humans don't. give themselves enough credit for how. much they've survived. >> Same. >> Yeah. >> We don't give ourselves enough credit. because we don't we don't look back at. that moment and think we were strong. We. look back at it and think we were weak. >> That's so interesting. And then we just. I was a stupid teenager and then you're. like no, you had to learn that.

>> There's no other way to learn that. >> Exactly. which is. wow. that I mean I remember talking to my mom. once and my mom is not someone who gives. me motivational advice or gives me. wisdom she's loving and caring but not. >> a wise sage in her words and I remember. I was going through my most difficult. fight yet at a certain point in my life. around 9 years ago.

>> and I was talking to my mom and she was. asking me how I was and what I ate for. dinner, which she it was usually our. conversation. [laughter]. And I just said to her, I was like, "Yeah, you know, I'm just I'm doing all. right. I'm just stressed out, doing a. bit, you know, and and I would say that. in a passing way.". >> Sure. >> And she said, "You're good at dealing. with stress." And I was like, "What do. like my mom doesn't just say?". >> It was so helpful. >> Yeah. And I said, "What do you mean?". And she said, "Well, when you were in my. womb, you went through a lot of stress.". >> That's so beautiful. >> And it was like, >> oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. It gave me.

so. >> so much. It It's still what I turn to. >> when I need strength. >> Oh my goodness. >> And it's it broke through the challenge. I had at that time. Like it gave me all. the resilience and conviction I needed. because my mom had just reminded me that. >> Well, that's so beautiful. >> Yeah, it was it was unbelievable. >> It's so amazing, too, because she's. saying like that's such an embodied. thing because like Oh my gosh, I'm going. to cry because like she's telling you. like your the fact that you were an in a. fetus, right? She's telling you like.

your body already knows how to do this. Like your body did this before you like. could even when you were preverbal. >> Yeah. >> Wow. What a like amazing form of trust. she gave you in yourself. >> I've been thinking a lot about this idea. of the stories of your parents and the. stories of your ancestors. And when I think about the stories of my. parents, which I learned early on, but. not in as much detail as I wished, >> I just heard about how much they went. through. And I was thinking about this. with Katie is where I'm going with this.

>> And it's almost like I didn't live that. with them. I didn't live in those homes. they grew up in. My dad grew up in the. slums in India. My my mom grew up in a. war torn country. They both moved to. England, you know, when they got. married. And when I think about that, I'm like, "Wow, that is that's so. difficult." Like, my parents did. something really hard. >> My mom was studying for her exams when. she had soldiers on her rooftop. >> Wow. >> And my dad shared a bathroom with like. 25 families.

>> Yeah. >> And when I think about think, god, that. is insane. And and then when you think. and you're like, but I come from that. >> Sure. >> Like like I come from that. And like. what? >> And so I wonder when like for Katie who. >> Yeah. as we were talking about earlier, like doesn't necessarily know her her. father, but how do you think about. >> creating that experience for her in in. helping her make sense of it? >> It's interesting that you're saying this. thing about your parents because like. the hardest thing is when your parents. lay it out for you, right? Like you do.

need to sort of absorb it yourself, [laughter]. >> you know? I did this and then you're. like, okay. But like it's so beautiful. that you really absorbed it. So, it's. like I guess I hope Katie will do that, you know, from reading Paul's book or. from like watching me and, you know, being me. Um, whatever she takes from. that. But I think I think so much about. how to like give her sort of like.

spaciousness, like support and. spaciousness to like figure out what it. all means to her, you know, because. she's her own person. Her childhood is. very different from mine. in this other. way, right? Like she has the hardship of. losing a parent. I didn't. She's like. decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not. me. She's very specific. I think none of. us honestly like comes to appreciate. that our parents are like full human. beings. Like it I remember in my 20s.

being like, "Wait a second, my dad is. not a professional dad. He's like a. dude. He's just a dude." Like that. explains so much. Like that explains so. much in a really like gorgeous way. You. know, he's like someone who's just. amazingly doing his best. Katie has. fewer like signposts to know who Paul. was, but she has this book to read. And. the book essentially says like it's. important to try hard. It's important to.

do your best and I love you. like he's, you know, Paul wrote so much about. striving and about struggling to find. meaning and about, you know, like about. facing death squarely and then at the. end he like stops and he's writing in a. second person to her and like writes a. message to her and that's the last piece. that he puts for her. >> As I'm raising Katie, >> I try to have her sort of take in like. random information about Paul. Like just. truly random. Like you love taking a hot.

shower. I hate a hot shower. I get in. and out. Like you and daddy like love a. hot shower. He loved a hot shower. >> You take the hour power shower shower. just like daddy. So that's just like a. random thing that you would know if you. were like growing up like next to. someone, right? So I try to give her. those kinds of things instead of just. like. >> your dad died and he was so wonderful. and he loved you. It's like I try to. give her like. >> sort of specifics that are like neither. here nor there, but they're like they. like create a tapestry. Yes.

>> She like sees his brothers who are like. really funny and amazing and sort of. like just funny in the way that he was. >> and then I don't know what her. interaction will be with Paul's book. Like it's all over our house. It's like. I mean not all over but like we have. five copies and they're on different. bookshelves and they're around and I. don't know when she's going to pick it. up. I don't know what she's going to. take. I don't know if he's going to feel. really close, if he's going to feel. really far or if she's going to say like. I'm not interested in this or if she's. going to be 30 and produce a movie. adaptation. I have no no idea. But I.

hope that she'll find some way that. helps her like you did understand like. where she came from and. >> that she was loved and yeah, she came. from this. Like that's really beautiful. to hear you say that. >> I came from that. >> Yeah. >> So I I have no idea. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, of course you don't. But. I I appreciate how you incorporate the. story, the tapestry, the the natural, the real of of what an experience is and. and the not heavy also the version. that's digestible and inhalable.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Without holding Yeah. >> word because I've done a lot of like. speaking and you know doing this book. tour and connecting with like grief. groups and just all kinds of stuff since. Paul died. I've actually asked people. for advice. Like if anyone here in this. audience is the kid, you know, who like. lost a grandparent or lost whomever and. then you don't know them and you're. piecing it together, what advice do you. have? And like the resounding advice has. been like don't put away the pictures. Don't lock it up,

>> you know? Like let the kid sort of like. have access, ask questions, like. discover it, and just don't like put it. away. What was it like making that. decision to have Katie at the time and. then actually go through both coming to. terms with Paul's mortality and then you. know wanting to create life together. >> Paul and I had sort of always thought. like that would be the moment when we. would think about having children like. he was at the end of his residency. I. wasn't attending by then. This is when.

things will like ostensively become. easier. And then right at that moment. he's diagnosed with metastatic terminal. cancer. the prognosis is like months to. a few years, but we both looked at each. other and thought like maybe we should. do this still. Sort of like surprised. ourselves. And he was more certain than. I was. He really really wanted to. And I. needed to sort of shore up like the. practicalities. It was sort of like. >> is the family on board with this? Like. >> we refinanced the mortgage like all of.

these things. It's like can I be a solo. parent? Like that is what I'm going to. be. And then I also was honestly worried. about his I was worried about like what. you said like how to hold like birth and. death and all of it at one time. And I I. asked him actually and was like you are. you are sick and like as you're going. through this process don't you feel like. having a child will make dying more. painful for you?

And he said, he said, "Wouldn't it be. great if it did make it more painful, which just like cracked the whole thing. open?" And I think actually for anybody. who has a child, like nobody is doing it. because it's going to make their life. easier. There's like a million things we. do. >> that make our lives harder. Like. everything, everything, right? Like, you. know, climb a mountain all the way to. the top to come down again in the exact. same day. It's like you didn't do that.

because it was easy. And so I just think. wouldn't it be great if it did has. changed my life so much and cracked open. like not necessarily the best one. Sometimes you cannot have joy without. risking pain or inviting pain. And for. me it was like another layer of. uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself. is like so much uncertainty, so much. fear. And I actually as a new mom had to. keep reminding myself like you know it's. like you go in and you like make sure.

the baby's still breathing and you're. like is everything okay? She gets a. fever and it's such a panic and like I. had to remember and be like I am 99%. certain that this person is going to be. fine Katie. I'm 99% certain that Paul. will not be fine. So like that is now. like where I need to hold. >> like my energy. So that was kind of like. helpful. Like when she was a baby, it. was like it's so easy to wish away time, you know? It's like, oh, I can't wait. till she sleeps through the night or. like what's she going to be like when.

she's like 18? And there was none of. that. It was like this is like the. moment that Paul will be here for is. like Katie's infantthood and like Paul's. final years. And so there was no like. wishing away the moment. It was all. present. And it turns out like that's. actually really good for you. It's like. the reason people like learn to meditate. or you know or it's like I'm washing my. hands in the sink like this is the. feeling of the cool water. It was like. that. It was like like a baby cries,

someone dies. I'm here like in this. moment, you know, and so yeah, and I. still can access that somewhat. And then. I also am like, you know, where are the. pencils for seventh grade? So like but. anyway it was it was like beautiful and. amazing and really good that we did it. and just yeah. it it worked out taught me a lot. Were. you always so evolved and or did this. accelerate it in a way that because when.

I hear you speak I'm just like God this. is like a lot of growth a lot of in a. short amount of time a lot of. >> taking on a lot of different things in a. short amount of time and it's almost. like do you feel like you were somewhat. prepared for it from somewhere in your. past? The heaviest lift for me actually. I think in terms of like training my. like brain and heart to hold a million. things actually was in medical school. I. was like I cannot believe I'm using like. every fiber of my being to figure out.

like intellectually and emotionally how. to take care of sick people and attend. to like every every layer of what's. happening in this room and then like. make a 10,000 decisions about like how. to make it all happen. So that was. really hard. I also went through an. episode of depression in residency. It. was incredibly painful. I wasn't like. hospitalized, but I took two weeks off. work and I felt like I just felt like I. didn't exist. I mean, it was depression. It's like depression. Like Andrew.

Sullivan says about depression, like. depression is not the opposite of. happiness, it's the opposite of. vitality. It's like so interesting. >> That was really hard. And I think like. making it through that I don't even. think I could put into words what it. like taught me but touching that like. pain like left me with I don't know some. sort of ability to approach darkness or. something just be like okay like I don't. know I have no idea. Yeah. And then I. just have like really good friends and.

we're talking all the time. Like I'm a. processor by talking obviously, >> you know. And then at the same time it's. like I went through this hard thing of. all these ideas about like. >> what helps me cope and then you go. through a breakup and you're like. heartbroken and you hate everything and. you have to start again or like you know. you have to figure out how to explain it. to a kid and then you know like that's. impossible or they think you're stupid. you know like. >> I don't know. It's all [laughter]. everything. It's all everything. It's. the transcendence and Yeah.

>> You know, this actually makes me think. of this thing. Yeah. Transcendence and. >> Do you know this idea? It came out of. Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social. psychologist. This idea of like the end. of history illusion. So like he talks. about like when you're asking this. question of like like what got you to. where you are today? And then like. >> he interviewed a bunch of people and he. said like how much do you think you've. changed in the past 10 years? And. everyone said so much. Like so much. And. they said how much do you think you're. going to change in the next 10 years? People said probably not a lot. And he. interviewed people at every age and.

there's like a little little bit of a. slowdown like in midlife but essentially. everyone changes all the time. Everyone. changes the same amount in the 10 years. >> You walk around thinking it's the end of. history illusion of like I'm me. I've. made it here. I've got it sorted. Here. we go. You know, and then in 10 years. you'll be like a whole different you. with like different sensibility or like. different frameworks. Like, isn't that. crazy? >> So, I don't know. I find that really. helpful. I don't know why. Just kind of.

like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Allowing ourselves to be new. and different. I mean, it's interesting. when you first said that question, I was. like, "Oh, I'd say I haven't changed. much in the last 10 years." My that. would be my initial take. I feel like I. knew who I was. I'm pretty much the same. person. But I think that's not fully. true. I think there's there's also an. end of history illusion from 10 years. ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In the sense of like I made up my mind. who I was 10 years ago in my head and I. stopped then. And it's like, well, that's not obviously true. Yeah, >> that's fascinating. That's that's really. cool to play with. >> Yeah, >> it's refreshing to allow yourself to.

say, "I have changed. My ability, my. values have changed or what I care about. has changed." And. >> and then when a big hard thing happens, you're like, "Oh, it's going to make. them me." [laughter]. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like. Dan's work, so I'll have to check that. out. >> Yeah. I wanted to ask you actually going. back to something you said earlier, what. about Kat Katie reminds you most about. Paul? >> Her eyes in her hands, her stubbornness, it's like infuriating. She very much. knows her own mind, which is. infuriating. [laughter]. >> I love them. Yeah. >> It's like an entire parenting toolboxes.

are unavailable to me because she's not. a pleaser. Um, and then she's like an. incredible physical comedian, which Paul. was also. Those are the things I think I. would say. She's introverted. Like Paul. I process by like speaking, like. relating. Sometimes I don't even know. what I think until I've said it. And. Paul was much more like inward. I think. that's like that's sort of like why he's. like when breath becomes air spun out of. his illness because he was like turning.

and processing and reading and writing. and she's introverted like that. >> But then she'll give you like, you know, like a little gleam, you know, of. something she's thinking. >> Yeah. >> Has she ever asked you anything about. Paul? Like from her own curiosity? >> Totally. And she's actually, it's so. interesting you asked that because I was. going to say of course and then but it's. not necessarily of course. She's just. sort of in the mix gleaning, >> but recently she started to she said. like could you make me a album of videos.

of daddy? And I was like sure and it's. like I so badly want to be like what's. she watching? When's she watching them? You know, cuz she's like having iPad. time. But like there's a bunch of. videos. there's like some interviews and. there's some goofy like sketch comedy. stuff and there's some like Thanksgiving. someone shot a video of whatever and so. like she can look at that and then she. asks for like stories I'll tell her a. story of like oh here's a story about. daddy like in a chess tournament when he. was in seventh grade and he was like.

really bratty and a terrible loser and. so like well you know she's like ah but. then there you know there's a lesson in. that. >> and she like recently like of her own. valition like put a small photo of the. two of them next to her bed, you know, and I was like, "Oh, so interesting.". Like, she's like claiming him. >> That's beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what's else is interesting. though is like she doesn't have a. sibling. Like it's me and her. And she. really wants a sibling. She wants a. little sister specifically. She really. wants me to keep dating so she can have. a sibling. I'm like, "We can't engineer.

that whole thing. I'll keep [laughter]. you posted.". But it's interesting because I actually. think like for her losing Paul was a big. thing and not having like a dad there is. a big thing, but not having a sibling is. actually also a big thing. >> Wow. >> Or having like our family look different. from like most of the families at. school. The permission slip is. different. Like she's not self-conscious. about it, but I think she like knows it. and it's a thing. >> So it's actually kind of interesting cuz. it's not the only thing, you know? So.

it's like she's piecing together like. you know all of it like the structure of. everything as every kid is doing right. >> Yeah. About that I mean you mentioned. earlier that Paul obviously wanted you. to remarry obviously Katie's encouraging. you to date. Like [laughter] what was. that process like for you because you. can say it when he's there and say okay. I understand that that's how you love me. in that forever way. >> Yeah. >> But what does that actually look like. for the individual who has to go on and. try to love again? How did you even. begin to open your heart and mind to. that possibility? Yeah.

>> And when did it feel possible? >> I wasn't like trying to open my heart or. I was just like it was just pure. intuition. >> I was just sort of like I'll know when I. know. >> you know for my wedding ring I was like. I guess I'll take it off sometime. It's. not today. And then like 6 months after. Paul died I went swimming and like took. the ring off and then came out of the. lake and was like oh I think I'm not. going to put it back on. M. >> and then like right now I have like my. engagement ring and Paul's wedding ring.

on this hand. >> which is interesting but maybe I'll take. them off like if I were like dating. someone really seriously I think I would. take off Paul's ring you know. >> so I was in this like support group. called hot young widows club. >> okay. >> after Paul died it was Nora McInner made. it was incredible. >> and there was actually a lot of. conversation in the group it was a it. was on Facebook at the time there's a. lot of conversation about like what did. your person say about dating again like. did you have this conversation or not. Cuz I think a lot of people who had had. that conversation felt really freed by. it. Some people thought like what would.

they want me to do or like is it a. transgression or is it a disloyalty? And. I don't think so at all. Like I think. like not at all. >> But I think like I'll also always love. Paul. It's really interesting. >> And I think like the analogy for me, I. mean it's just like love is infinite. Like there's totally enough love to like. go around. And I think for me it's not a. perfect analogy, but it feels a little. bit like if someone's child had died and. then they had another child, you would never think like, oh, the this.

child replaced the other child or. >> do they have enough space to like love. the the new child. You'd be like, no, they're just different. Like it's a. little different when it's your partner, right? But I'm like, Paul, the way I. think of it now is like Paul's my. family. Like he's my family. His. family's my family. like he's my family. forever and I absolutely like can fall. in love, have fallen in love, like it's. just like there's enough love to go. around, >> you know? It's been like pretty easy in.

a way. And I think the grief part was. actually the harder part. It's like I. needed to like heal to be like ready and. be like emotionally available for like. anything. Like I was just like parenting. my kid and surviving and then I became. ready. Let me know if you want to set me. up. [laughter]. >> Yeah, >> they have to have one daughter younger. than 11. >> Yes, Katie knows a little sister. Got. it. That's a good criteria. We're going. to put it out on the show right now. >> Exactly. >> I'm hearing from you that it's that it's.

that intuitive tale. It's it's not Yeah. It's not something that you consciously. pursue or prepare, >> which like it's probably similar for a. bunch of people, right? Like after. someone gets divorced and is like going. through the like devastation and like. identity and like what was what and what. was my role? I don't know. It's just. like it's all an upheaval, right? That's. like also so like terribly hard. And so. I don't know then it's like. >> yeah when are you ready? >> Yeah absolutely. Yeah. When are you. ready? And I think that's the question. that everyone keeps quizzing in their. mind. But like you said you can only.

know internally. It's not like a. tactical practical thing that you can. kind of put into number of months or. years and yeah it doesn't it doesn't. work that way. >> Right. >> How do you define love today? I mean, I. saw you talk about it actually on a clip. where you were like, "The person who. loves you will never use your wounds. against you.". >> And then you talked about how your wife. like holds no judgment for you. And I. was like, "Of course, of course." Cuz. you're you like, and I don't mean you're. J. Shetty. I mean like you're you you're.

the person they love. So like yeah, there's no judgment of whatever the. thing is. There's just like partnership. It doesn't mean you could like endlessly. hurt the person either, but like. I don't know. That's part of it. I think. I think there is like an. unconditionality to love for sure. And. at the same time, I think like that is. more true for like children than adults. Like you don't love adults. unconditionally, right? You like have. boundaries that like adults like. >> can't actually cross. >> But like as long as you can like work a.

relationship within that. >> like real like partnership and. spaciousness and like non-judgment. >> Yeah. It's a hard question. And it's. it's a really hard. What would you say? >> I'm always changing my mind. I I think. there's so many nuances and facets to it. that it's so it's such a hard question. I think that's why we all struggle with. it so much in finding it and looking for. it. >> That's the answer too, right? It's like. I would also be like fun and growth, isn't it? But it's like at the same time. you're like it's sort of like that thing. where it's like you know it when you. know like it's intuitive.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean ultimately it's. teamwork and teamwork requires all those. things you just said that teamwork. should be fun and it should have growth. and it should have uh mutuality and it. should have reciprocation and it should. have connection and communication and so. teamwork just it feels very simplistic. but but it it gives you a good visual. >> Yeah. And at the same time like I do. think it's like I mean you know this but. like obviously it's never going to be. perfect either. Like there's something. actually really romantic in like.

choosing and like choosing like on a. daily basis you know like that's very. romantic of like. >> sometimes one person's up one person's. down sometimes it's like you know. difficult. >> you know but similarly like that's your. team. >> yeah yeah exactly exactly and it's it's. shared. >> it's a shared experience it's a shared. life it's a co-created life. >> it's a co-creation I think is so. important and and co-holding and co- co-. everything.

>> while also like you're still like two. beings like correct you're you. >> correct absolutely yeah. >> yeah it's complicated I mean it's like. it's a constant as you're saying this. it's like similarly to the like end of. illusion end of history illusion it's. like it's never done and dusted like. it's like it's like constantly like work. >> yeah absolutely I wanted to talk to you. a bit about this. >> idea of and I know you've spoken about. this this idea of like reimagining how. we die uh Because. >> yeah, >> it kind of goes back to what you were. saying earlier about the survivor or the.

beating cancer. >> Yeah. >> approach. My monk friend who who passed. away like he. >> he was very positive. >> and he almost just didn't let anyone in. to what he was feeling and going through. and that was his version of how he dealt. with it. >> And as far as I know from him, I believe. he was happy with that. And then of. course at the end of his life, he needed. support and help and everything and and. he and he got that. I wonder what your. take is on having obviously done this. been a doctor seen patients been at.

grief groups like when you think about. this idea of people battling between. letting go and giving up and like what. the difference is and what you do when. you get a diagnosis and how you weigh up. whether I should fight till the end or. whether I'm giving up or actually am I. just letting go like can you help make. sense of that to some degree? >> Totally. I mean, no is the answer. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Um, I mean, I I hear you about your. friend and it really is like to each his.

own. Like, people really have different. ways of coping. >> Um, it is a weird time to die in America. in history. Um, because like that sort. of like battle idea like death is very. medicalized and like very sort of like. western medicalized right now here. And. I think there's like a lot of reasons. for that, but the battle metaphor is one. of them. And another one is like we have. all of this technology.

available that is like, you know, built. for emergencies, but is getting offered. to people who are like 90, you know, with like failing organs. Um, I think. there's so much taboo around talking. about death and dying and meanwhile also. so much hunger to like crack it open and. think about it. I think like suffering. and dying are really hidden like from. view. >> the way that they haven't been across. history for people. This is like really. interesting to be like, oh, what's. happening over there? Like how are we. supposed to talk about it? So I think.

there's sort of this like cultural force. to like intervene to like you know. anyone who's been through like a serious. illness with someone has seen how much. sort of like momentum there is toward. like aggressive medical care. I think of. it when you were saying like how do you. choose whether to like you know am I. giving up am I beating it? I guess in my. mind I sort of think of it as like a. thing is happening like a thing is. happening. It's like now there is. Parkinson's here or now this person has.

metastatic cancer and like it's going to. play out the way it's going to play out. And so like how do you like provide. healthcare that's going to make that the. best possible like extend life as long. as possible, extend functionality like. as long as possible, help people do the. things that they want to do that are. important to them. But there is some. like building of like you can sort of. choose healthcare within that to kind of. like design your healthcare or like make. your choices around what's important to.

you. >> But that requires like sort of facing up. to like what is happening, what is. possible. >> and then like having the team who's. taking care of you like also level with. you about that with their knowledge and. experience. I mean there's like two. things like for I'll like give you a. practical tip about it but if people are. like I am facing an illness my family. member has an illness I want to be able. to like. >> figure this out but like how on earth am. I supposed to do that. >> one like thing people can do is ask for.

a paliotative care team to be part of. their care. >> people get really scared around the word. paliative so like paliative care hospice. is a teeny part of it so hospice is like. paliative care for people who are. actually dying soon. Like you literally. have to be certified like very likely. more likely than not that you would die. within 6 months. That's hospice. Then. there's pal of care which is huge. You. could be like a 22-year-old with. Hodkdins lymphoma who's going to be. cured in 2 years and is like really. struggling and suffering and they'll.

take care of you too. Or you could be. someone with heart failure where it goes. up and down and up and down for years. and you could have palative care take. care of you. And basically it's it's a. concurrent care model alongside whatever. other care you're getting alongside the. oncologist alongside the neurologist or. whomever is taking care of you. It's. actually a medical specialty that only. was recognized in the US 20 years ago. It grew up just like a little bit before. that. But they combine like chapency. nurses social workers like doctors or. other clinicians and then they take care.

of your family too. So like when you. walk in the door they're like who else. is taking care of you? Who else is with. you? Hey, does this person need. something? It's so incredible. It's like. if you could just dissolve the health. care system, which Walter Kronhite said. is neither healthy nor caring nor a. system. You would just like start with. palative care and then just like build. everything else around that. There's a. lot of like mis misunderstandings about. what palative care is, but if anybody's. struggling and isn't sure where to turn. for that, they're so incredible. And you.

could just ask, you just be like, can I. have a pal of care specialist be part of. what we're doing? >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for. sharing that. Yeah, it feels like. there's all these. >> hidden things that exist already that. that we miss out. And even even like the. um what was it? The hot widows. >> Hot young widows. >> Hot young widows. Lovely. Yeah. Like. that's. >> Yeah. >> Even the camp you were talking about. earlier when before we started. recording. >> Yeah. Katie's at Camp Kessum. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and just there's all these things. out there that humans are doing so many. beautiful Yeah. There's so many. beautiful things to to help people at.

different stages and. >> you almost don't know and and hopefully. people who are in the position know but. if they don't it's yeah I really. appreciate you sharing that. >> I think this is such an important. conversation that I feel like you're. such a big part of like how do we help. people take back their dignity when. they're dying? Like what does what does. that actually mean? What does that look. like? >> I think the the broadstrokes answer is. like don't forget that they're a person. Don't forget that they're still them.

Think about what you would want in that. situation. You know, I think like like. we were saying, it's like illness and. dying can be sort of so flattening of. like your humanity, your complexity. It's so sort of like undignified, right? You're like you become sort of like. infantilized, you know, or if you're in. a hospital or if you're somewhere if. you're in a healthcare facility, you're. literally naked, you know? You're not. even wearing your own clothes. So just. as much as like people can protect your. privacy, ask you what's important to.

you, make things beautiful like. sensually, you know, like there are. flowers here, there's music here, like. people are touching you, like people are. looking you in the eye, like. >> I don't know, I could say a million. other examples. >> I also think like respecting what. someone like cares about. You know, when. people are dying and they're trying to. make a difficult decision like Paul did, I wrote about this in the end of Paul's. book, but. >> he was very, very sick and ultimately. got rushed to the ICU cuz he was. suffering so much and couldn't breathe. well and then had to make this decision.

about whether to be intubated, like. whether to be on a breathing machine. A. lot of people who are sick end up sort. of with a north star of what's really. important to them. I want to be with my. family. I want to be free of pain. I. want to make it to my child's. graduation. For Paul, his was I want to. be mentally lucid. Like I want to be. mentally lucid to like be with my family. and keep writing as long as I can write. He literally was like writing up until. like 2 to 3 days before he died. And so. that decision about whether to be.

intubated. became really clear. >> Yeah. >> You know, where he's like, there's a. chance if I get intubated then I will. not be extated and instead like we'll. stop life support. And so for him it was. like the way to like maintain his. dignity was like or align with his. values was like okay if this is the end. of mental lucidity then this is the end. >> and like we'll listen to you know like. great like we'll make that happen. >> Yeah. >> Which was when that was actually.

happening it was like incredibly. confusing incredibly painful incred like. so hard but also like so there was a. grounding thing which was like what's. important to Paul. When I hear that, I. think about how usually when we're. losing someone, we're worrying about how. it affects us. >> Yeah. >> And they're the one who's going through. loss, too. It's shared. It's shared. It. is two ways. >> But it's almost like I think us, all of. us naturally would want the person to. stay. Obviously, >> totally. >> But there's a independence and decision.

that. >> that person also needs clarity on. And. like you said, it may be yes, I want to. do this, but his one was so specific to. his totally helpless and mission in the. world. >> Totally. And at the same time like. medically like families can go through. real trauma like literal PTSD from like. participating in medical care or having. like their loved one get care that. wasn't in line with their values or that. they ultimately thought like oh that did. cause them unnecessary suffering. So. it's like there's always a trade-off you.

know like. >> it's like it can hurt everybody. Do you. believe anything needs to change in the. standard protocol of how doctors deliver. terminal news? >> Um, totally. When I was in medical. school, which was 20 years ago, they. were just starting to teach like, hey, make sure you attend to the emotion in. the room. So, like if someone is crying, pause, allow some space. It'll feel like. a long time to you, doesn't feel like a. long time to them. And then you can even.

say, I see the tears in your eyes. and. just leave it where you can say this. looks like it's feeling really sad. You. know what I mean? Like we were learning. those skills. It was really interesting. because they were teaching it to us like. they were skills because they actually. are. And then you have a little. pneummonic about like attend to the. emotion in the room but it's real like. it's you it becomes part of you. >> Um I think you know there was a study of. doctors that said half of doctors said. they had like given a prognosis that was. rosier than what their actual medical.

opinion was. So interesting. It's like. even in the hospital, it's like you sort. of make this assumption of like what. hope means to people. Like hope means. longer life. So I'm going to say that. I'm going to keep them on the outer. bounds of what could be possible. But I. think what many people respond to like. what I've ended up learning is a really. good way to share with patients or even. frame it to yourself is thinking a about. like prognostication for example as a. range. So like instead of saying like. you have 6 months to live because like.

that's the median in the studies, you. say like it's likely a few months to a. few years which is like broader but more. accurate really and that's like enough. information for someone to decide like. do they want to have a baby like during. this illness or not you know and then. similarly another way that we've been. trained to tell people that we're. training our students to tell people is. a model where you say you share the best. case the worst case and the most likely. case and actually people can have a lot.

people get a lot of information from. that where they can decide like how much. risk do I want to take to aim for the. best to prepare for the worst. >> and then they're kind of like well I'm. still allowing space for the best and in. the meantime I'll make sure my family. knows what I want when I'm gone. >> So like I think like doctors are being. >> taught to allow just like space space. space and more like accuracy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really. helpful to hear. That's helpful to hear. how humans process.

>> Yeah. >> It's also like not just one conversation. like. >> the first time you hear the news like. then you don't hear anything else, right? Then you have to hear it again. You know, you heard it from different. people. But yes, it needs to change and. it is changing. Thank goodness. >> I think right now in the world we're. talking a lot about aging well. >> Yeah. >> What's your sense of what it means to. die well? >> I think that living well is the same. I. think like the way to not be afraid of. dying is to feel that you've had a.

meaningful life. That's what I think. I. think that's what ended up being true. for Paul. And I'll just tell you like. something beautiful that like Paul felt. that I hope I feel too cuz I also think. this sort of encompasses like a good. death is like similarly if you're lucky. enough to like have the tools to like. build a life that you felt is. meaningful. I think Paul ended up. feeling like, not to sound cheesy, but I. love this. He ended up feeling, I'm not. dying feeling that I'm losing.

everything. I'm dying feeling that I. have everything, which I think is so cool, you know. >> Wow. >> So, I don't know. Hasn't happened to me. yet, so it'll be a surprise. That's a. really powerful answer and. quite a unfathomable mindset because you. could argue he he could have felt he. didn't have everything like he hadn't. had Katie yet and you know like hadn't. had that experience and which seems like. the natural thing we all feel at that. time where it's like I haven't done this. yet or haven't seen this or want to make.

it to this and sort of really say. >> that will always be true. >> Yeah, >> that'll be true for everyone. >> But he was able to say he had. everything. He felt that. >> Yeah. or enough like enough. >> enough. Yeah, enough. Yeah, >> I struggled with it later too and then a. friend was like, "What if it was. enough?" And I was like, "What if it was. enough?". >> Lucy, thank you so much. >> Thanks for having me. >> So grateful. Truly, I'm so grateful to. meet you. >> So grateful for your openness. So. grateful to learn about Katie and Paul. and and yourself. And.

>> thank you. >> I'm truly in awe of your resilience and. courage. >> That's like wild to hear you say that. It's true. I really mean it. It's It's. >> Yeah. What a treat. I mean, truly. Yeah. >> No, it's it's melted my heart. >> Truly, I really mean that. >> Thank you. >> Pleasure. Yeah. Such a joy. >> If you love this episode, you'll love my. conversation with Malala Yusfsai on how. she transformed extreme adversity into. global purpose. I was hanging out with.

some friends and what was like supposed. to be a fun night just took a sharp turn. and. immediately I froze.