#1 SLEEP EXPERT: Your Brain Is Being Damaged Every Night (Simple Fix!)

Right now, we estimate that. approximately 80% of people who have. sleep apnea are undiagnosed. That's crazy. Please welcome Matt Walker. What is good sleep, and should we just. use the metric of quantity? The range is. somewhere between 7 to 9 hours. Once you. start to get less, the shorter your. sleep, the shorter your life. When sleep is abundant, all of a sudden. your appetite hormones are rebalanced, so you naturally stop eating as much as.

you wanted to. The weight starts to come. off you, and you're simply sleeping the. weight off yourself. That sounds like you're saying that. sleep is that number one domino that. then naturally helps all of the others. If you are not sleeping in harmony with. your natural biological sort of rhythm, then your sleep quantity and quality is. worse. Regularity may be as, if not. more, important than quantity. And I would say to anyone listening, if. you're going to do anything with this.

podcast, just do this one thing. The number one health and wellness. podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The. one, the only, Jay Shetty. How much sleep do we actually need? Yeah, it's an interesting question, and. there is definitely a range. You know, I. think there is, and perhaps even. populated by idiots like me, that there. was this magical 8-hour number that was, you know, necessary, and get anything. less and there's doom and gloom. The. range is somewhere between 7 to 9 hours.

for the average adult. And what we. certainly know is that once you start to. get less than 7 hours of sleep, we can. measure impairment in both your brain. performance, as well as your body. metrics. So, there is a range, but in some ways. it's also a question of what is good. sleep, and should we just use the metric. of quantity? And we absolutely should, because using that sweet spot of 7 to 9. hours, it looks as though the shorter your.

sleep, the shorter your life. Short. sleep predicts all-cause mortality. So, duration, total amount, is necessary. But, if you actually look at the. science, what is good sleep can be. really answered by a four-part equation. that, in my mind, there are really sort. of four macros of good sleep. Three. macros of food, fat, protein, carbohydrate. For sleep, four macros. And you can remember it by the acronym. QQRT. And it stands for quantity, quality, regularity, and timing. So, quantity,

you're absolutely right, somewhere. between 7 to 9 is is that fit. Quality. is about the continuity of your sleep. Is your sleep fragmented and littered. with all of these awakenings and you're. awake for a lot of the night? That's not. good quality of sleep. So, you could be. in bed for 9 and 1/2 hours and still get. 7 hours of sleep, but you're spending 2. and 1/2 hours of time awake. That's not. good quality of sleep. Then, we can speak about regularity.

Going to bed at the same time, waking up. at the same time. It sounds very benign. Well, do I really have to worry about. regularity? There's a great study and. they looked at regularity and quantity. Both of them predicted all-cause. mortality. So, if you're very regular. and you get that 7 to 9 hours of sleep, you have the lowest mortality risk. But, then, because they had these two. measures in the same individuals, they. put them in the same statistical. analysis and did the sort of Coke-Pepsi.

challenge between the two. What they found is that regularity beat. out quantity in terms of predicting your. mortality. Meaning, regularity may be. as, if not more, important than. quantity. Now, you've got to get both, but So, QQR, quantity, quality, regularity, timing. Timing sounds like. regularity and you think, well, I guess. what's what's the difference? Timing is about your chronotype. Are you. a morning type, evening type, or a. neutral?

And it turns out, by the way, that if. you're a night owl, it's not your fault. It is genetically, or largely. genetically, determined. There are at. least 22 different genes that dictate. whether you want to be a morning person. or an evening person. So, you don't get. the choice. It's gifted to you at birth. And what we find is that if you are not. sleeping in harmony with your natural. biological sort of rhythm, then your sleep quantity and quality is. worse. So, let's just say we take. someone who goes to bed at 10:00 p.m.

and wakes up at 6:00 a.m. Well, if. you're a slight morning type, that's. actually quite ideal for you. But if you're an evening type who likes. to go to bed at 2:00 a.m. and maybe wake. up at 10:00 a.m., then it's the same. 8-hour window that they're getting. But. if the night owl, 2:00 a.m. to 10:00. a.m., is forced to sleep from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m., still 8 hours, the quality. of their sleep that they get will no way. be as I'm sufficient as the the morning.

type. So, some people will come to our. sleep center and say, "I have terrible. sleep onset insomnia. I get into bed and. I'm awake for the first 2 hours and then. I fall asleep." And we do a chronotype. assessment, which is morning type, evening type. And by the way, people can. do this online very quickly right now. You can just type into Google MEQ. test. MEQ stands for. morningness-eveningness questionnaire. And it fits very well with your.

genetics. Takes about 3 minutes. When we do this type of assessment with. them, what we realize is that they don't. have insomnia. They're they're a night. owl, but they're trying to sleep like a. morning type. And so, when they when you sleep sort of. against your natural biological. predilection, your sleep is not going to be as good as. it could be if you moved yourself closer. to your natural innate biological. tendency. Does that make sort of some.

some sense? So, those to me would be. yeah. Yeah, can you shift your sleep. time? If people want to if someone said, "Matt, that makes so much sense. I've been a night owl my whole life, but. I just feel like I should be trying to. sleep earlier and wake up earlier. It. would be better for my partner. It would. be better for my lifestyle. Better for. my kids, whatever it is. Can you shift. your type?" It's a really good question. I get asked that a lot because. in some ways what I'm talking about is. the ideal world. And drumroll, none of us live in the.

ideal world. We live in this thing. called the real world. So, you know, stop your fancy sleep science and tell. me just, you know, can that change? There was a study done um in by a group. in Australia. And they took I think it. was about 11 different things that you. had to do as a night owl to see if they. could drag you back so you felt more. capable of going to sleep earlier. And. it was things like um as soon as you. wake up, eat a large breakfast, go and. get daylight first thing, exercise.

before midday, do not nap, take an. earlier lunch, don't nap again in the. afternoon, in the afternoon start to get. as much darkness as you can meaning put. shades on if you're going to go outside, in the evening make sure that you eat at. least 3 hours before you expect to go to. bed, and then try to push your sort of alarm. clock the next morning by about 1 to 2. hours. And they collected all of these. different sort of regimens, and sure. enough they were able to drag people.

back by a little bit over 1 hour. Which sounds great, but the problem is. these were extreme night owls who would. prefer to go to sleep at maybe let's say. 1:30 a.m. That means they're still uh having to go. to bed biologically at 12:30 a.m. It's. not the 9:30 p.m. or the 10:00 p.m. that. you would prefer. And imagine trying to. capitulate and adhere to that regiment. for the rest of your life. So, there is some wiggle room, it seems,

that you can sort of manipulate. But, in truth, I think what we have to. try and do, as best we can, is to say, "How can I align myself. better with my biology?" When you fight. biology, you normally lose. And the way. you know you've lost is disease and. sickness. And that's what we see with. night owls who are sort of trying to. sleep against their their tendency. That said, though, is there a way that you can I mean, hack. isn't the the right word, but there are.

ways that you can try to help yourself. So, think about what you do in the. morning that takes time. So, is it that. you sort of, you know, make the coffee, you put the coffee in the coffee pot, you get your clothes ready for work, you. pack your bag for the gym after work. All of these things you can do ahead of. time the night before to take that 15. minutes of added time the next morning. and say, allow yourself to sleep a. little bit later, so you're at least. getting closer to your natural tendency. Then, go to the front end of sleep and.

say, "What is it that I do in the last. 15 minutes before I go to bed?" Well, I. usually sort of maybe I take a shower, maybe I change for bed, maybe you know, I brush my teeth, uh maybe some people. take their makeup off, whatever it is. Set an alarm 2 hours before bed, do all. of those things, and then, right before. you go to bed, when that alarm goes off, the to bed alarm, all you do is get up, you go straight to bed. So, you've saved. yourself 15 minutes on the front end, so. you can go to bed 15 minutes sort of.

later, and you can wake up 15 minutes. later, but you're not necessarily having. to go to work any later. What So does. that make some sense? You can try to. short sort of thin slice some of that a. little bit. Yeah, absolutely. If you're someone. who's waking up tired regularly, like. right now someone's listening and. they're just like, "Jay and Matt, I wake. up every day and I'm just tired. And I'm trying to get the right amount. of sleep, but I'm still figuring it out. Where do I start? What would you. encourage them to look at?" So I think.

the first thing let's go back to the. four principles. Are you getting a. consistent 7 to 9 hours of time at least. in bed? Next, are you trying to. assess your sleep and say, "Am I waking. up a lot throughout the night?" I would. say that's one of the first places I. would go to. If yeah, if the if you're. not feeling restored and refreshed by. your sleep the next day. and you're getting 4 hours of sleep a. night, then it's obvious. It's just not. the right quantity. But if you're being.

good and you're spending sufficient time. in bed, but still feeling unrefreshed. and restored, we have to ask, "Are you. waking up a lot throughout the night?". If you are, let's figure out why. Is it. that you are, for example, snoring a lot. throughout the night and you have. undiagnosed sleep apnea? And you can just download a an app on. your phone. I have no association with. them. It's called SnoreLab. So snore l a. b and you download it, it records your. breathing, you place the phone next to.

you on your bed. Then in the morning it. shows you a Richter shock sort of scale. throughout the night and it quantifies. your snoring into quiet, moderate, loud, and epic. And the frightening thing is you can. then tap anywhere throughout the night. and you can hear yourself snoring in a. way that we don't. So next thing is. let's make sure that you don't have an. undiagnosed sleep disorder. Then I would say, "Is it a case that. you're maybe over consuming on caffeine. during the day?". Some people will feel completely.

comfortable having an espresso with. dinner and they say I fall asleep and I. stay asleep. So, I one of those and it. is genetically determined who can. metabolize caffeine quickly and it has. no effect. We've done studies and. unfortunately, even if you do fall. asleep and stay asleep, that caffeine. can prevent you from going into the. deepest stages of what we call deep. non-rapid eye movement sleep. That's. where you get a lot of restoration. sensation from. So, maybe we need to ask. how much caffeine are you taking? The.

dose and the timing make the poison. Try. to cut yourself off after about three. cups and try to stay away from caffeine. at least 10 to 12 hours before you. expect to go to bed. The final thing I would probably say is, are you also using anything in the. evening to help you fall asleep? And the. principal thing I'm talking about here. is alcohol. It's probably the most. misunderstood sleep aid that there is. out there. It's actually not a sleep aid. and it will fragment your sleep and. block you from getting rapid eye. movement sleep. So, what we would do is.

we would march you through a set of. environmental behavioral things. What. are you doing in terms of your bed. timing? Are you spending a lot of time. awake? And also the things that you're. taking into your body, alcohol, caffeine, etc. The final thing I would. say is stress and anxiety. If there is. one outside of. skeletal pain, the principal reason that we as a. society seem not to be sleeping. is this rolodex of anxiety. Because, and.

you've spoken so eloquently about this, in this modern era, we are constantly on. reception. Very rarely do we do. reflection. And the only time now in the modern. world when we do reflection is when our. head hits the pillow. And that's the. last time that we need to do reflection. because at that point the rolodex of. anxiety starts whirring. At that point. you start to ruminate. When we ruminate, we catastrophize, and then everything feels twice as bad.

in the dark of night than it does in the. light of day. And at that point, we're. dead in the water for the next 2 hours. So, the final thing I would say is, let's speak about your mental state. So, does that give you a sense of sort of. the pinwheel diagnostics that we would. go through? it. I love it. I love the acronym. I. love how simple and. formulaic it is for us to be able to. actually measure what's going wrong, and. I can. I'm fortunate and very grateful, and. knock on wood, sleep very, very well, and.

uh and generally always have, but. whenever I have had disturbances in my. sleep, I can easily pinpoint it to. something you've said. And that shows me. how great the model is because as. someone who is lucky and fortunate. enough to have great sleep, when I have. been disrupted, it's always been related. either to caffeine, to stress and. anxiety. I can easily draw the parallels. because it's such a rare occurrence. Yeah. And so, I can see why and when. I want. to dive into each of those. Let's start. with sleep apnea because I think that's.

something a lot of us don't actually. know enough about. Yeah. I love the fact that people can use the. app SnoreLab, as you mentioned. How many. people are actually struggling with. sleep apnea don't even know about it? And what is actually happening if you. have sleep apnea? Yeah, two great. questions. So, right now we estimate. that approximately 80% of people who. have sleep apnea are undiagnosed. That's. crazy. Which, if you look at the numbers, is. going to be a non-trivial proportion of.

the population. And the reason it's so. dangerous is because when you have sleep. apnea, essentially what's happening is. that your airway is either partially. becoming obstructed, or like a straw, it's collapsing flat entirely. Now, if. it starts to um become obstructed, so. let's say you're sleeping on your back, and the airway flaps in that airway are. starting to give way to gravity, then. you'll start to get a partial blocking, a partial what we call occlusion of the.

airway. And that's what you hear when. you hear the. sound. That's the sort of the flapping. of the partial occlusion. And then, when. you stop breathing entirely, at that. point the airway has completely. collapsed. The straw has gone flat. And after about 15 or 20 seconds, your. brainstem registers the alarming buildup. of carbon dioxide in your blood, because. at that point you are slowly. asphyxiating, and it sends a wake-up. trigger up to your cortex, and then all.

of a sudden you hear. and you gasp, and you are awake. So, imagine now we have a way that we. measure these sort of occlusions and. these partial collapses. Uh and it's called the AHI score. Don't. worry about it. It stands for the. apnea-hypopnea index. Suffice it to say that we look to see. how many events like this are you having. per hour of sleep. And if you were to. have very mild sleep apnea, you may be. having 5, 10, 15 of these events. That's.

considered mild. Some people could have. 80 of them per hour. Let's just say you. have mild sleep apnea, 10 of these. events an hour, and you're in bed for 8. hours. So, imagine the following. scenario with undiagnosed mild sleep. apnea. What if I were to say tonight, I'm going. to come into your bedroom, Jay, and. every hour I'm going to throttle you, strangle you to the point where you. actually stop breathing, and I'm going. to do that 10 times every hour for every. one of the 8 hours. So, I'm going to do.

that 80 times throughout the night. Do you think you're going to feel. restored and refreshed by your sleep the. next morning? And the answer is no, but that's what in. Now, that's hyperbolic, of course, but. in some ways that's what we're facing. even with the mildest version of. undiagnosed sleep apnea. That's why. sleep apnea untreated is associated with. a very significant increase in all-cause. mortality, as well as increases in. mortality related to diabetes, to. cardiovascular disease, as well as.

certain forms of cancer. So, I think for me it's the case of it's. not only going to erode the quantity of. your life, meaning your lifespan, it. will certainly shorten your health span. That's what most of us are worried. about, not really our lifespan, it's our. health span. None of us want to live. with disease or sickness. I certainly. don't want to. And I remember there was. a patient that we worked with with sleep. apnea, and after they were treated, they. were saying, "Well, before that, I just thought this was me.

at 57 years old. I just thought I would. deteriorated with age, and I realized. there was someone in there that wasn't. the way I felt. And when you treated me with sleep. apnea, it was almost as though someone. cognitively had wiped a fogged glass. clear, and finally I could see again.". And so, that's why I think so many. people can benefit by way of just simply. doing taking this app, seeing whether. you snore. Also, you can do something.

called the STOP-BANG. questionnaire. So, S T O P, all in caps, {dash} B A N G, and you can do it also. online, and it's a very quick. questionnaire, probably about 2 minutes, and it will evaluate your risk. likelihood of having sleep apnea. One of. those two, if you fear that you have. sleep apnea, or if you know that your. partner has sleep apnea, please go and. get it seen to. It's a laughing matter, you know, we think, "Well, they they.

sound like a chainsaw, they wake the. neighbors up." It's almost this thing of. sort of humor. Trust me, when it comes. to your health and your wellness, it is. anything but a funny story when it comes. to undiagnosed sleep apnea. Yeah, thank you so much for giving such. practical tips as to how we can check as. well. And I hope everyone who's. listening and watching please go do that. because the fact that 80% of people may. not have a clue. And that could be the. secret behind better sleep is crazy to.

me that we haven't uncovered it for 80%. of people. That's huge. And so many downstream consequences. happen when they get treated that they. are typically overweight. They usually. have high levels of blood sugar or blood. glucose. They typically have. hypertension, high blood pressure. And. what's nice is that when you were to. say, "Okay, we've got to have you. reducing your food intake. We need to. stop you from eating sugar. We need to. get you to the gym." All of those things. have Herculean in that challenge. And.

people often in that state of being. overweight, hypertensive, hyperglycemic, they just find it so hard to change. But. if you treat them with sleep apnea when. sleep is is abundant in good quantity. and quality, which it will be when you. treat them, all of a sudden your. appetite hormones are rebalanced. So you. naturally stop eating as much as you. wanted to. The weight starts to come off. you and you're simply sleeping the. weight off yourself. It's a largely.

painless equation. You don't crave those. sugary sort of high sugar sort of. immediate hit foods. So your blood sugar. comes back into control and you're more. motivated to be physically active, meaning that your cardiovascular health. So I sometimes think of sleep, you know, if you've seen one of those fancy music. studios where they've got all of the. dials on the mixing deck. and you can move any one of them, but. sleep to me is that one dial all the way. at the far left that if you move it, all.

of those other dials just kind of move. up. It's the tide that floats all of our. other health boats. And so if you get. that one straight, so many things, as a. manifold, also like an Archimedes lever, will consequently change downstream for. the better. You don't even have to do. anything. You just have to start. sleeping better. Caffeine has a. half-life for the average adult of 5 to. 6 hours, which means that after about 5 to 6. hours, 50% of the caffeine is still. circulating in your brain. That means.

that caffeine has a quarter life of 10. to 12 hours. So, if you have a cup of. coffee at noon, uh 25% of that, a. quarter of that cup of coffee, is still. in your brain at midnight. So many of us. see sleep as a cost to our lives. Yes. And instead, I think what we have. to realize is. think of sleep like an investment in. tomorrow, not a cost of what I get for. today. Melatonin now is being more and. more used in the pediatric setting. So,

you'll see these melatonin gummies for. kids. And there was some data, gosh, now, probably 30 years ago, looking at. juvenile male rats, meaning that they're. going through that sort of adolescent. phase. And they were getting dosed with. high amounts of melatonin. And that high. dosing of melatonin in the juvenile male. rats actually stunted their sexual. development. You've probably been. hearing about AI everywhere. And we all. need to be mindful of the tools we trust.

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thoughtfully crafted by Anthropic and. its team of researchers whose mission is. to design the most capable and secure. systems that place people at the center. You can try Claude for free today at. Claude.com. That's c l a u d e dot com. It sounds like you're saying that sleep. is that number one domino that then. naturally helps all of the others. And. I've had everything that you just said I.

for the past 6 weeks I've been in LA. which is rare. in terms of I haven't traveled, I. haven't jumped on a plane, I've been in. one place. And because of that I've been. able to really dial in on everything. from sleep, working out, eating right. because I've had no reason to have an. error because I've been at home. And you know, when you travel you maybe. whatever, right? You you eat something. that wasn't great. Yeah, you're in a. hotel room whatever it may be. I've been. here for 6 weeks so I've been on a. phenomenal schedule. Last week I I was. only gone for like 4 hours away. I took.

a 3-hour flight, took a 3-hour flight. back. I was gone for like 4 to 6 hours. in total. And I landed back at 4:00 a.m. which is rare for me. I don't do that. I. usually sleep by 9:30 p.m. I'm a morning. person for sure. And I got back at 4:00 a.m. I tried to. get some sleep. I probably got up at. 8:00 a.m. because that's all I could. sleep at that time. I got in a workout. but I had to tell my trainer to lower my. level of workout because I was more. tired than I've felt for a long time. And I actually felt weaker. So I've been.

feeling really strong across the last 6. weeks but I felt weaker. I was like, I. don't think I can lift that much today. I'm not feeling up to it. On top of that. all my sugar cravings went through the. roof that day. And that's yeah, and I. know and you notice it so significantly. when you're at the other end where. you're like, oh wait, I've haven't. needed refined sugar for like weeks on. end now but this one day all I'm craving. is fats and sugars and that's that's all. I'm after. And I did give in and I was okay about. it, but.

but it's so interesting to feel it that. abruptly and that extremely. Yeah. And. and you're so right. I I wanted the. sugars, I wanted the fats, I wanted I. couldn't I couldn't work out as well. All of it makes a difference. And in. some ways we what's great now is the. science is compelling in terms of the. mechanism, such that firstly there are. two appetite-regulating hormones. They're called leptin and ghrelin. Now, leptin is an appetite hormone that when. it's released, it says, "Okay, you're. satisfied with your food. You don't want.

to eat more. You're satiated." Ghrelin. is the opposite. It says, "You're not. satisfied. You're still hungry. You need. to eat more.". And what we find is that when we start. to sort of thin slice people's sleep, and it doesn't take very much. You can. sort of get maybe 6 hours of sleep for 5. nights or 5 hours of sleep for 4 nights, all of a sudden the hormone leptin, which says, "You're satisfied. You're. good. You don't need to eat anymore.". That starts to decrease. At what point?

It well, it usually takes about 4 nights. of somewhere between 4 to 5 hours of. sleep reduction to already see those. changes and see appetite behavior. changes as a consequence. So, it doesn't. take very much. And then if that wasn't bad enough, ghrelin, the hormone that says, "Oh no, no, no, you're still hungry. Please, please eat more." That goes up. So, in. some ways it's double jeopardy that. you're getting punished twice for the. same crime of insufficient sleep. Once. by switching off the signal of "I'm.

full. I don't need to eat." and once. again by "I'm hungry and I need to eat. more.". Then what we have also found is that we. have inside of us what we call. endocannabinoids. So, people have heard of sort of. cannabis. The way that most people have. heard about it is an exogenous sort of, you know, intake of cannabis. But we. have naturally occurring cannabinoids in. our system called endocannabinoids. Now, many people will um let's say know. someone, of course I'm not going to.

judge anyone, will know someone who's. said, "When I uh you know, when I smoke. weed, I get I get the munchies. I get. hungry." That seems to be one of the. consequences of these cannabinoids. Now, endocannabinoids inside of us also do. the same thing. They can make us more. hungry. When you are underslept, your. naturally occurring cannabinoids, these. endocannabinoids, they also increase. And that drives you to eat even more in. addition to the changes in leptin and. ghrelin. And then finally, we did a study with.

brain imaging where we scanned people's. brains with and without good sleep, looking at different food items from. highly desirable to highly healthy. When you are underslept, the rational. control regions of your brain in the. frontal cortex, they get shut down. And. these more hedonic, deep emotional brain. centers that respond to rewarding, pleasurable foods, they started to. become much more reactive. And it set you on this path of almost. obesogenic eating, where you crave those.

sort of, you know, the sugars, the. chocolates, the starchy carbohydrates. And you don't go towards the leafy. greens and the healthy nuts. You go. after the pizza and sort of the salty. snacks. So, all of which is to say you. get this sort of conspiring both within. the body and also at the level of the. brain that explains exactly what you. were just describing as a a sort of a. phenomenon. And that's why I think this. You've always got to be careful with. epidemiological studies where you say, "Okay, shorter sleep equals higher body.

mass index, higher chances of obesity.". There could be many things. But, when. you experimentally manipulate sleep and. you can unpack the mechanism, then we. can entertain causality. For sure. So, what's the You said earlier we should be. eating 3 hours before we go to bed. Yeah. What's the ideal meal type 3 hours. before we go to bed? A, so that we don't. get hungry just before we go to bed. Yeah. And B, because I also understand that. the digestive process can actually make.

sleeping much harder. And so, what. should we be trying to digest in those 3. hours that keeps us full and doesn't. disrupt our sleep? Yeah, it's a really good question. And. And so, there are the sort of the 3. hours what we were trying to do is take. those night owls and try to drag them. back in time. But, if you're not a night. owl trying to sort of manipulate your. sort of sleep timing, we can then just. ask for anyone who's just, you know, in. their standard sleep regiment, when. should you cut yourself off? And it's. actually a bit of a myth, because there.

is there's a strong sentiment out there. on social media you need to stop eating. maybe 3 or 4 hours before bed. If you look at the data, and I did this. sort of analysis of all the literature, if you eat as close as 60 minutes before. bed, it doesn't seem to hurt your sleep. Now, if you sort of go 45 minutes or 30. minutes, then yes, it does seem to have. an impact blast radius on your sleep. Nevertheless, that's a very different. question than saying, "What would be beneficial to my sleep?".

I'm I'm phrasing the question as. at what point does it become harmful for. your sleep? And the answer is you can. eat up to an hour before bed and show no. harm on your sleep. But, that's very. different than saying, "But, what if. you'd stop eating 2 hours or 2 and 1/2. hours? Would that have actually improved. your sleep?". I think what we're seeing in the data is. that it's very idiosyncratic, that you. need to test drive it, and you will know. which kind of {quote} type you are. Some.

people, mostly night owls, have a. preference to eat late in the day or. early in the evening, and very little in. the morning. Whereas, morning types like. to eat sort of breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a. pauper. You know, they scale down. I. think it's dependent on your chronotype. That said though, the two ways that food. can disrupt us, first, if we're eating. high sugar content foods at night, it has a disruptive impact. And we know.

this in part because it could be the um. not just the activating level of sort of. alertness in the brain that happens with. a sugar hit. It's also that simple. sugars are what we call thermogenic, meaning that when we take on board. sugar, it can just very gently increase. our core body temperature quite quickly. And it turns out temperature is key for. sleep. We need to drop our brain and our. body temperature by about 1° C or about.

2 to 3° F. to fall asleep and stay asleep. And it's. the reason you will always find it. easier to fall asleep in a room that's. too cold than too hot. The room that's. too cold, it's taking you in the right. direction for good sleep at night. So, when you onboard uh simple sugars at. night, it starts to just moderately, just gently increase your core body. temperature, which can disrupt your. sleep. So, I would say content, try to. aim for if you're going to go after sort.

of carbohydrate, make sure that they're. complex carbohydrates that release their. energy in a much slower fashion. Also, try to aim for a protein-based, you. know, yogurt is fantastic at that point. Make sure it's not, you know, highly. sweetened yogurt because then you're. taking on board sugar, unfortunately. So, yogurt together with some kind of. slow-release carbohydrate is probably a. fantastic approach to to food. The. second way though that you can disrupt. yourself above and beyond the the macros.

of food is that when you eat too late, particularly spicy food, it can cause. acid reflux. And that reflux is one of. the other reasons that eating too close. to bed will disrupt the quality of your. sleep. So, try to go after more of a. slow release sort of protein, maybe a. casein-based protein, and then aim for. if you're going to go after. carbohydrate, just make it a smaller. portion and make it a complex. carbohydrate. That's probably the best. recommendation. Yeah, I know. It's so. important to hear about all the versions.

of it because I do think sometimes. when you hear, "Oh, yeah, you can eat up. until, you know, the last hour, you'll. be fine." It's so different to well, how. do I get into performing at my best? Yeah. And feeling at my best. And when. you're already struggling with the. quality of sleep, every minute kind of. factor is going to make a difference. That's right, yeah. And and it's just. Yeah, I'm I'm really happy that you've. gone into the detail there of like, you. know, why is it that we're saying 3. hours? Or what what does that look like?

As I was hearing you speak, I was just. thinking about just how hard it's become. for people to. regulate their lives and and manage. this. I know in some cultures it's just. so natural to eat really late before you. go to bed. How much. does eating a late meal also push back. your time of wanting to go to sleep? Or. is there no correlation there? No, there. actually is a correlation. It's It's a. very astute observation actually, which. is you can have one type of biological.

chronotype predilection, but you can almost violate that biology. and override some of it by creating sort. of certain conditions under which it. will distort your natural rhythm. One. way that this rhythm is played out is. the release of something called. melatonin. And melatonin is a naturally. occurring hormone, and it simply tells. your brain and your body when it is. darkness, when it is night, which is to.

say melatonin helps with the timing of. our sleep.". And there are ways that you can. artificially delay your your natural. melatonin release. A good one would be. being exposed to too much light in the. evening, too much artificial light, what. I would think of as junk light. You. know, there was this concept a while. back of junk DNA. Well, I think there is. something called junk light, and we get. too much of it at night because we are a. dark-deprived society in this modern. era. But there's other ways that you can.

delay your natural biology. And if, let's say that all food was taken away, all electric light was gone, all. internet service was down, and you know, the lights were out, you would naturally. say to me, "Well, I'm someone who would. probably not get sleepy until midnight.". And then all of a sudden, as I said, no. food, electromagnetic pulse takes out. all electricity, everything is gone. All. of a sudden, you probably say, "Gosh, it's 10:15 p.m. I actually feel quite sleepy.". And it's because modernity, through all.

of its changes, light, social media, you. know, sort of entertainment that we're. constantly exposed to, it's dislocated. us from our natural sensation of biology. telling us it's time to sleep. Mhm. Most of us think that, well, I'm. probably, you know, a midnight to 8:00. a.m. type person. When if I took you. camping in the Sierras for 2 weeks, and. we had all of our sort of fancy. technology measuring your sleep-wake.

rhythms, and we would actually find, you. know, you're much closer to a a 10:20. to 6:30 a.m. kind of person. But modern sort of industrial life has. come in the way of that, and it is. modified our perception. So, to to come. back to your elegant insight, there are. ways that we can almost contort our. natural biology, one of which is things. like social media, electric light, but. another one is that you can just.

manipulate things like food timing. And. that food timing will create an. activating alertness sensation in the. brain and the body and force you perhaps. to go to bed or feel tired until hours. later than you naturally would. otherwise. So, you have the way that we. usually measure someone's natural sort. of tendencies is we bring them into the. laboratory and we say "Say goodbye to. your friends and your family for the. next week." We take all daylight away, no windows, no nothing. And we just. measure your natural biology when we.

separate you from everything that is in. the outside world. And that way we can. bring you back to your innate. tendencies. And usually there is quite. the mismatch between when we interview. you and say, "What is your natural. rhythm?" versus when we measure you, "What is your biological rhythm?" Those. two things are often quite different. Yeah, thank you so much. I've As you. were talking, you mentioned melatonin. And I was thinking about obviously the. rise in melatonin gummies, melatonin.

supplements I guess you could take. before going to bed. And then you also. have sleeping pills. Yeah. Walk us. through what's what's in sleeping pills. versus melatonin gummies or or the sort. And what's your take on both? Yeah, it's. it's very interesting and obviously just. being a scientist rather than a a. medical doctor, what I could offer you. is sort of scientifically descriptive. advice rather than necessarily medically. prescriptive advice. But melatonin has. had this meteoric rise in the sleep. supplement world. And now here at at. least in America where it's not.

regulated by the FDA, you can go into a. supermarket or a grocery store and down. the sort of the health food section, um. there is this big sort of purple sector. And that is the melatonin sector. Melatonin, it can be useful to help. regulate your circadian rhythm. And so I will use it strategically if. I'm traveling. If, let's say, I go back. home to the United Kingdom, um and I live just outside of San. Francisco, it's 8 hours ahead. So, I can.

use it to try to trick my brain into. thinking, "Oh, it's night time." on the. first night I arrive in the UK, when in. fact, my melatonin peak is not going to. arrive for at least another 8 hours. because I'm still back on California's. time. So, but for the most part, the way. people use melatonin is night after. night after night. And if you look at the studies, melatonin will only increase the speed. with which you fall asleep by about 2.2. minutes. And it will only increase the.

efficiency of your sleep by about 3.7%, which isn't that much more above and. beyond placebo. And the reason is because melatonin. doesn't participate in the generation of. sleep. Melatonin is a little bit like. the starting official at the 100-meter. race. It brings all of the great sleep. races to the line and begins the great. sleep race, but it doesn't participate. in that sleep race. That's a whole. different set of brain chemicals, which. we'll come on to with sleeping pills.

So, that's the reason that melatonin. isn't a particularly effective sleep. aid. It's the reason that you will never. see people being prescribed melatonin. for insomnia for the most part, unless. they have some kind of circadian rhythm. disorder. So, I would say, if you're using. melatonin for the purposes of improving. the speed but with which you fall asleep. or the generation of sleep, it may be a. placebo effect. And by the way, the. placebo effect is is the most reliable. effect in all pharmacology, so maybe no. harm, no foul.

The only other caveats I would offer. with melatonin, first, because it's not. regulated here by the FDA, you don't. know the purity. And there was a great. study that's been replicated, and they. looked at I think it was about 20. different vendors of melatonin. And they. sampled what was inside of the pill. Based on what they said on the bottle. versus what was actually in the pill, it. ranged from about 80% less than what it. said to 460%. more than what it stated on the label.

So, it's a bit of a wild west. You don't. quite know what you're getting when you. take these. these Yeah, so you've got to I would say. be a little bit careful. For the most. part, melatonin is largely an inert. compound anyway, so we don't need to get. sort of, you know, too phosphorylated. about it. your take on the fact that when we're. taking these, I guess, artificial. supplements of melatonin, that it. depletes our body's ability to make it. and regulate it at the right times that. we actually need it?

Yeah, that's another critical question. and that's one of the fears that we. have. I think the data we don't have right now. to say one way or the other, but if you. think about, let's say, a male who's. undergoing hormone replacement therapy. with exogenous testosterone, what we know is with certain forms of. testosterone replacement therapy, after. some period of time, the testes will. stop producing their own testosterone. And even if you were to stop your. exogenous injection of testosterone,

your production of testosterone innately. never returns. And the worry is, is that. the case with melatonin? Now, there have. been a number of case studies that have. looked at melatonin use, let's say, for. up to four or even six weeks of constant. use. And when they stop, melatonin. production returns. So, it looks as. though we don't have to worry. My worry though with those data when. someone has sort of offered them to me. is to say, but most people in society, they're not using melatonin like that.

They've been using it for years. Not six weeks. So, I think I'm still a. little bit sort of concerned. The other. thing or two other things, one is that. the dose that people typically take is. what we call a supraphysiological. dose, meaning it's far higher than. anything your body would naturally. release. So, people are taking 5 mg, 10. mg, maybe sometimes even 20 mg. Whereas what we would recommend in sleep. medicine is somewhere around about one, maybe maximum of three milligrams. So,

you know, log orders of magnitude. higher. The other thing to to keep in. mind is that melatonin now is being more. and more used in the pediatric setting. So, you'll see these melatonin gummies. for kids. And there was some data, gosh now, probably 30 years ago looking at. juvenile male rats, meaning that they're. going through that sort of adolescent. phase. And they were getting dosed with. high amounts of melatonin. And that high. dosing of melatonin in the juvenile male.

rats actually stunted their sexual. development. So, it stunted testicular. growth and it caused testicular atrophy, meaning shrinking of the testes. Imagine if I were to go to, let's say, um a teacher and parent meeting one. evening at a school and get up there and. say, "I would like you this evening to. start dosing your children with a. bioactive hormone. And it is a hormone that I would like. you to dose your children with every. night at maybe five to 10 times the.

natural release. And also it's a hormone. that may actually disrupt their sexual. maturation and development. Who's with. me?" You know, and at that point people. would, you know, boo you off the the stage, rightly so. Now, again, I'm being hyperbolic and we. don't know if there is that concern or. not. I'm simply saying that if we don't. know, my sort of suspicion, at least. personally, would be I'd probably err on. the side of caution at least at this.

stage, particularly because the FDA. recently released data demonstrating. that admissions to hospitals for. melatonin overdose have increased by. 503%. in the past 10 years. So, there is. something going on with melatonin, I. think, that we need to be mindful of. Again, though, it's largely an inert. compound, so I don't need to be. scaremongering here. Your second part of the question was. sleeping pills, and. it's a really interesting evolution. I.

think we're now at the stage of sleeping. pills 3.0. We sort of had 1.0, 2.0, 3.0. It's kind of the same with sleeping. pills. We started off with the classic. benzodiazepines, things like Valium. And they work to go after an inhibitory. chemical in the brain, neurotransmitter. in the brain, called GABA, which stands. for gamma-aminobutyric. acid. Don't worry about the name, it's. simply the red light stop sign for brain. activity. These things like Valium, they.

would go after the this GABA system in. the brain, and they would activate it, and essentially just knock out your. cortex. And then, the second generation of. sleeping pills came along, the Ambien, Lunesta, Sonata's of this world. They. also go after that GABA inhibitory. neurotransmitter system in the brain, but they just sort of tickle the. receptor in the brain a little bit. differently. But, for the most part, they are doing. the same thing, and that's why we call. them the sedative-hypnotics.

Because they are sedating your cortex. Now, if you take an Ambien at full dose, I'm not going to argue that you're. awake. You're clearly not awake. But, to argue. that you're in naturalistic sleep in. some ways is an equal fallacy. Because. if I show you the electrical signature. of your sleep with and without Ambien, they're not the same. And in some ways, Ambien will come in, and it will take a bite out of the. deepest of the deep slow brain waves of.

deep non-REM sleep, sort of this big. dent that you see that happens. And so, again, it's not necessarily to. say that there isn't a time and a place. for the use of those medications. Sleep. medicine right now does recognize them. as being useful potentially in the. short-term. to start to begin treatment for. insomnia, but they are no longer the. first-line recommended treatment. And. one of the reasons that in a book that I. wrote where I was sort of I probably.

wasn't. overly enthusiastic about those web 2.0. sleeping pills, the Ambien, Lunesta, and. Sonata. And it was for several reasons. First, because sedation is not sleep, and when. you take those medications, you mistake. the former for the latter. But it's not. natural sleep. We also know that those sleeping pills. have been associated with higher risks. of mortality and certain forms of. cancer. Now, those are associations. We. don't know necessarily that that's. causal. But then there was another very.

interesting study where they looked at. how sleep helps your learning and your. memory. And one of the incredible things. about sleep is that it will take. recently learned memories, and that. memory circuit in the brain, sleep will. strengthen the synapses so that you come. back the next day, and that memory is. almost it's like it's hitting the save. button on those memories. You cement it. into the architecture of the brain. And they did a study where they dosed. animals after learning. a maze or different types of learning,

and they could measure the strength of. the memory circuit. And then they gave. them natural sleep, and sure enough the. next day, sleep had almost doubled the. strength of the memory. Then, they did a version where they. dosed the animals with a. body-appropriate amount of Ambien. And. those animals slept longer. And you. would think, well, if sleep is helping. the memories and strengthening that. memory circuit, sleeping longer should. lead to an even greater strengthening of. the memory. Unfortunately, Ambien had. unwired the memory and it had actually.

reduced the strength of the memory by. 50% 5 0. So, to me that's just a. demonstration that. perhaps the the the quality of sleep is. not a naturalistic quality of sleep and. it may not therefore be transacting the. natural functions that sleep typically. provides like learning and memory. There is a newer class of medications. that are out on the market and I think. the the evidence right now is still. early but so far I actually think that.

they look really quite effective and. again I think people had taken my stance. to be I'm very anti-pharmacology in. general. I'm not. I'm I'm very. pro-pharmacology. if the pharmacology is good and not. necessarily causing you harm. And these new a class of medications, they are called the DORAs drugs and it's. d o r a small s. It's a class of drugs. and there are currently three FDA. approved and probably the first one was.

called Belsomra. and it's a play on sort of beautiful. sleep and the actual chemical name is. suvorexant. These medications do something really. much more elegant. The Ambien and the. Lunesta as I said that's just a sedative. hit to the cortex. These new class of medications, the. DORAs, they go after awake promoting. chemical called orexin. You can think of. orexin like the the wakefulness volume. button and when it's turned up, we're. wide awake.

And these medications, they come in and. they act like an additional set of. chemical fingers and they just go after. the volume button of wakefulness of. orexin and they just dial it down and. then they step back and they allow the. antithesis of wakefulness to come in its. place which is this thing called. naturalistic sleep. And so, I I think right now I'm probably. more bullish on those medications. Again, a lot of water to pass under the. bridge before we understand them, but so. far I think that they're a much more. elegant and nuanced way of manipulating.

sleep. The other thing I would be remiss. to to mention is there is an alternative. to these medications in general, and. it's called cognitive behavioral therapy. for insomnia or CBT-I for short. It is. just as effective as sleeping pills in. the short term, but what's nice is that. when you stop working with your. therapist after maybe six or eight. sessions, not only do you with with a sleeping. pill like Ambien, when you stop, you. typically go back to the bad sleep that. you were having, or you actually have.

rebound insomnia, where your sleep is. even worse. But with a therapist, they're giving you. the tools and techniques. It's sort of. the difference between, let's say, you. know, giving a woman or a man a fish. versus teaching them how to fish. This. way, you actually understand how to. manipulate your sleep. They give you the. tools, and then you can continue to. sleep better for years later, even after. you've stopped utilizing the therapy, unlike medications. So, I would just say. that that's a little bit about both. melatonin, the sort of the emergence of.

these new flavors of sleep medications, and then an alternative should people. wish for that. Yeah, it's it's so. worrying because I think we've got so. used to treating our brain and our mind. like technology. And this desire to just. switch it on and off, power up, power. down, power on, power off. It's almost. like you don't ever really stop to think. what's happening in order for that to. happen. And I know I didn't for a long. time, where I grew up and you just pop a.

well, paracetamol from where we're from, but I grew up from, you know, in the US, and you got a headache, just take this, it's gone. You know, you you can't. sleep, take this, you'll fall asleep. And you're not really recognizing what's. happening at a chemical level, and how. many consequences there are, and what's. what's actually happening beneath the. scenes and I think it's so easy to. forget. because it's giving you the instant. thing that you want in that moment. Yeah. But the kind of circuitry that. it's kicking off or or closing down has.

far more long-term consequences that. like you said we're not even aware of. It's sad and hard and difficult that. wanting to get these natural things to. happen that we are naturally wired to. do, right? These chemicals are being. naturally produced and there are natural. things we can do to boost those. chemicals within ourselves that will. hopefully get us to go to sleep as you. talked about like seeing light first. thing in the morning like you know, be. being outdoor more, reducing blue light.

in the evening, reducing exposure to. junk light as you called it in the. evening. I've definitely seen that one. make a big difference. I'm someone who. generally loves light. I really like. being in bright places and my wife's the. opposite. She knows she's very much like. wants to follow the sun. And so when. it's dark she'll be like all the lights. have to be off in the house. And. recently when we've been watching our. shows, we've been watching our shows in. total darkness apart from the screen. obviously. And it's so natural for both. of us to just feel tired earlier. Yeah.

And we'll be like all right, time to go. to bed and we don't have our screen in. our bedroom. And so we'll finish. watching whatever we're watching and. we've sometimes we're both even like you. can tell we're just falling asleep while. watching. We figure it out, turn it off. and go to our bedroom and we're out to. sleep. And in just simply. completely making it dark in the evening. has had a huge huge impact on me. Honestly, I I love that you bring this. up and I would say to anyone listening, if you're going to do anything with this. podcast in terms of an actionable, you.

know, event, just do this one thing for. the next week if you get the. opportunity, just do me this favor. Set a to bed alarm 1 hour before you. would normally go to bed. And when that. alarm goes off, shut down 50% if not 75%. of all of the lights in your home. And then see how soporific. that will make you feel, how sleepy that. you will make you feel. It It's really quite striking. And then,

don't just stop there. Do what I would. call the off-on-off. version of the experiment. So, baseline. you're coming in, you're normally. leaving the lights on blazing. Now we go. into the on version of the experiment, the intervention, which is darkness 1. hour before bed. And then, after that 1 week, go back to. doing what you used to do. Keep all of. the lights blazing for right up until. you go to bed. And don't just ask the. question, did my sleep get any better.

when I did the manipulation of 1 hour. before bed switch the lights off? Ask the question, did my sleep go back. to being actually worse when I returned. to keeping the lights on? And so you. show bidirectionality. And when you show. bidirectionality, it's usually a much. more powerful version of the experiment. But And if, honestly, you can say to me. it made no difference to my sensation of. feeling drowsy and sleepy or the quality. of my sleep, then no problem at all. Keep doing what you're doing, and it It.

just didn't work for you. That's fine, too. I I love what the advice you gave. for people who are struggling with. insomnia. For someone who's waking up, they they go to sleep for 3 hours, but. then they're up. They finally put. themselves back to sleep after an hour. and a half, and they sleep for maybe. another 3 hours, and then they're back. up again. Yeah. For that person, what's the most helpful. way for them to be able to fall back. asleep in that moment? So, we've talked. about the roots of the issues and and. the core from the acronym, but what. about that person who's just like, I.

just want to know how to get back to. sleep for another 3 4 hours if I could. Yeah. What's the quickest way I can do that? I. would say there are three things to keep. in mind here. When I often hear that. description, people will say, "I always. wake up at It's about 3:15 in the. morning or it's 4:10 and it just happens. so reliably." My first question to them. is, "How do you know it's 4:00 in the. morning?" That's your problem. You're looking at the clock. And knowing that it's 3:15 or 4:00 a.m. in the morning does you no favors at.

all. It's not going to change the. outcome. So, the first recommendation is. remove all clock faces from the bedroom. It's okay to If you really must do, keep. your phone next to your bed, but keep it. out of sight. Even though I would. strongly recommend that you keep your. phone in the kitchen or even better. still, uh a friend of mine recommended. recently, um just put it in the garage. Put it in your car in the garage and. that way it's the amount of motivation. effort to go and get your phone within. the first 10 minutes of the morning is. very, very high, meaning you're probably.

not going to do it. So, let's baby. steps. Let's just say crawl, walk, run. First thing to do, just make sure you. can't see any clock faces. And if you. wake up, resist the urge because as soon. as you start doing that night after. night, you're actually training your. brain, reinforcing it to wake up at 3:15. in the morning. So, we've started that. The next question is, "Well, what should. you do about it? You know, don't tell me. the fancy remove the clock. Help me.". At that point at night, either if you've.

woken up or you just can't fall asleep, it works for both of these. The problem here is that you have to get. your mind off itself. Because at that moment when you're. awake, you start thinking, "Okay, I'm. awake. This is now going to just. obliterate my day tomorrow. It I've got. that important meeting. I'm now going to. be under-slept." At that point, the. anxiety starts to begin. Then you start. thinking, "Oh gosh, I remember now I. didn't do that one thing that I should. have done for tomorrow morning. And then.

I've got to do that thing for next week, and I also didn't do that thing last. week for. And again, at that point, that's going. to keep you awake for the next 1 or 2. hours. So, your job to try to get back. asleep is to disengage the mind. How do. you do that? I would say there are. probably four or five different tools. that you can use. The first is. meditation. It may be or may not be for you, but if. you look at the data, meditation for. sleep immensely powerful. If meditation.

is not your thing, just do something. simple like breath work, and you can. just Google box breathing and. anything like that is great. You could. also just do a simple body scan. Start. at the top of the head, move down, just. And again, Google body scan, and you can. start to train yourself to do that. The. next thing you could do is listen to a. sleep story, or just listen to a. podcast. Make sure it's on a timed sort. of shut off. But again, all of these. things, common across all of them, is. you're getting your mind off itself. If.

I'm meditating, I'm not thinking about. my worries. If I'm breathing, I'm. focusing on the breath. If I'm doing. some kind of a relaxation, a body scan. again, I'm just moving through my body. It's very hard for me to think about my. anxieties. If I'm listening to a sleep. story, I'm engaging in the sort of the. externality of the story, not my own. internal worries. And then the final. thing that was done is great study done. at UC Berkeley, not by my group. They. found that taking yourself on a mental. walk in hyper detail was wonderful. So,

let's say it's a walk that I take with. my dog. And you've got to remember it in. high detail. So, I think, "Okay, I open. the drawer. Which colored leash am I. going to take? I'll take the blue one.". Clip it in with my right hand. With my. left hand, I open the door, take a left. down the stairs, go up. It's at that. level of detail. And all of these things are taking your. mind off itself, because at that time of. night, sleep is a little bit like trying. to remember someone's name. Sleep is not.

something that you make happen. Sleep is. something that happens to you. And like trying to remember someone's. name, the harder you try, the further. you push it away. And it's only when you. stop trying, does it return to you. Absolutely. the same way with sleeping. Normally, if. you engage in some of these methods and. tools, the next thing that you remember. is your alarm going off in the morning. Why? Because you took your mind off. itself. Totally. If that doesn't work, and you are consistently waking up and.

spending long amounts of time in bed. awake, then we may have to implement one. of the methods in cognitive behavioral. therapy for insomnia, which is something. called bedtime restructuring. It used to. be called sleep restriction therapy. Well, and for reasons, obviously, you. can think it's not the best name. Well, you come to me and say, "Look, I'm. having real problems getting enough. sleep." My I say, "Great, we're going to. do sleep restriction therapy." And you. say, "No, no, wait. Wait a second. You. didn't hear me. I can't get enough sleep.

and you're saying you're going to. restrict my sleep." It's actually not. sleep restriction. It's time in bed. restriction. So, you tell me, "Okay, I. am in bed for 8 hours and I'm awake for. 2 hours across the night. So, I'm only. getting 6 hours of sleep, but I'm in bed. for 8 hours." To me, as a sleep. scientist, I then know we've got to. constrain the time with which you are. giving your brain the opportunity to. sleep because your brain has become. inefficient. It's like saying, "I go to.

the gym and I take an hour to work out.". But if you were to actually observe me, I'm actually only working out for about. 25 minutes because, you know, at the. end, I finish my, you know, my last rep. Then I do the 11th rep, which is I pick. up my phone and I start checking social. media. And then I'm talking to people. And utterly inefficient. But then, at. some point, someone says to me, "Look, today you've only got a maximum of 30. minutes in the gym and as soon as your. 30 minutes is up, we kick you out. The. first couple of days, I'm still doing. what I normally do and I get through.

maybe 15% of my workout cuz I'm not. doing it efficiently. After a week of. doing that, I now realize as soon as I. go into the gym, I put my phone down and. I just go at it real hard and I still. get my 25 minutes of workout in the 30. minutes. It's the same with sleep. restriction. You tell me, okay, I'm in. bed for 8 hours and I only get about. sort of 6 hours of sleep. Well, now I'm. going to say, I'm going to limit you and. I'm going to take 1 hour of sleep away. from you.

You wake up at the same time, but I want. you to go to bed consistently 1 hour. later, maybe even 1 and 1/2 hours later. You tell me I go to bed normally at. 10:00 p.m. I say, you are now not. allowed to get into bed until 11:30 p.m. Push through. I don't care. And then. you've got to wake up at the same time. And after about three or four days of. this, your brain starts to build up Now, the first couple of nights, you're still. going to be sleeping bad. But then after. a couple of nights, your brain starts to. build up this starvation, this hunger.

for sleep. It creates a sleep debt. And then after a while, it's like. resetting the Wi-Fi button on your. router. The brain thinks, gosh, I don't have the. luxury of 8 and 1/2 hours of time in. bed. I'm only allowed 6 and 1/2 now or. 7. And now, all of a sudden, it becomes. incredibly efficient. You stop waking up. in the middle of the night. If you do. wake up, you fall back asleep very. quickly and you end up getting maybe 6. and 3/4 hours of sleep within 7. Whereas. you used to get 6 and 1/2 hours of sleep.

with 8 and 1/2 hours of time in bed. So, it's a quite convoluted method, but I. would say I would use that as the last. approach. Firstly, try to get your mind. off itself. If it's still not working, think about sleep restriction therapy. You can just Google it. It's pretty. simple. Great advice. Thank you so much. I love how tactical and practical you. are. Oh, thank you. No, it's so helpful. Like I. if there's anyone who's listened to this. episode right now and you have a friend. or a family member who's struggling with. sleep, please pass this episode on.

because I've never heard someone make it. that granular as you are. Honestly, it's. it's so brilliant and it's so helpful. because. it's so easy to get philosophical about. these ideas. And we all understand how. important sleep is and how much we need. it and and you know, I can hear everyone. going, "Yeah, but what do I do?" And and. you and you're really you've created a. map for people. So, thank you so much. for your work. Well, I think I was I was very guilty of. doing this. You know, when I first came. out a couple of years ago speaking about.

sleep, I was I was speaking all about. the science of sleep and the bad things. that happen about sleep. And I think. someone even said my TED Talk, which I. think was called they they name it sleep. as your superpower or something, should. have really been called sleep or else. dot dot dot. You know, it's it's and it. didn't people with insomnia no favors. I. I understand that now, but I think what. I've tried to do is people have said, "Okay, I get it. Sleep is important, but. how? Yeah. How do I get it? And I. completely suffered what we call in. neurology is hemi neglect. One half of.

what I needed to do as a sort of a. public intellectual regarding sleep was. missing, which is I was telling everyone. how critical it was and the bad things. that happen when you don't get it. But I wasn't being very helpful cuz I. wasn't telling anyone how it works and. how you know, where is the user manual. for sleep? And that's what I'm now. trying to do. So, thank you for saying. that. across. I'm trying to do a little bit. better. I'm trying to do less bad, let's just. say that. No, it's coming across great. I want to. move on to talk about caffeine and. coffee. You spoke earlier, you said we.

should be having our last cup of coffee. or caffeine at 10 to 12 hours before we. go to bed. Yeah. And when I was. listening to that, I was like, I think a. lot of people are not doing that. Like. from what at least from the. conversations I'm having, I think people. are having it much closer to bed or. they're having so much that it's. affecting their bed. If you had to tell. people just a couple of things about. caffeine or coffee and sleep, what what. would you want them to know? I think I.

would say that firstly, caffeine has a. half-life for the average adult of 5 to. 6 hours. Which means that after about 5 to 6. hours, 50% of the caffeine is still. circulating in your brain. That means. that caffeine has a quarter-life. of 10 to 12 hours. So, if you have a cup. of coffee at noon, uh 25% of that, a. quarter of that cup of coffee is still. in your brain at midnight. So, I don't. think many of us would get into bed and. sort of pour a quarter of a cup of.

coffee and then swig it and then, you. know, put your head on the pillow. We. understand that that probably doesn't. lead to good sleep. But in some ways, that's not dissimilar to what you're. doing if you have a cup of coffee at. noon. Keep in mind however, there is. variability that some people have a. faster capability to metabolize or at. least clear caffeine from the system. And you can do these genetic tests and. um there's an enzyme called the CYP1A2. gene and that will dictate the speed.

which is sort of a liver enzyme, a. cytochrome enzyme that will speed or. slow down. And you will know if you're. caffeine sensitive or not. So, firstly, the timing of caffeine can. be important. Also, the dose and that's why we've. looked at people, even if you just have. one weekly sort of drip brewed cup of. coffee in the evening, let's say it's. just 100 mg of caffeine, it will not necessarily prevent you from. falling asleep as efficiently, but it.

will increase the chances with which you. wake up. And if you wake up, it will. increase the duration with which it. takes you to fall back asleep. Mhm. And if it doesn't do that, it can also. reduce down the depth of your deep. sleep. And we know, for example, that. it's during that deep sleep when your. brain has a cleansing system that washes. away things like the Alzheimer's. proteins, amyloid and tau protein. So, you really would prefer not to try. to degrade the quality of your deep.

sleep considering all that it does for. your brain and your body. But in some. ways, that's what many of us are. inadvertently doing if we have caffeine. too late in the day. I would say though that I've probably. changed my tune a little bit on coffee. I would say drink coffee, but the dose. and the timing make the poison. Try to, as I said, cut yourself off after about. three cups of coffee and try to, you. know, cut yourself off at least 10. hours, you know, as a rule of thumb, before bed. The reason I reverted back.

in some ways to say coffee is not. necessarily a bad thing to drink. If you. look at the relationship between. drinking coffee and the health benefits, they are non-negotiably. astronomically impressive. Drinking. coffee seems to be a very good thing. Now, again, it's dose dependent. Once. you get past about four cups of coffee, then it goes in the opposite direction. It's not a good thing. And if you look at that list, and it is.

quite a list of health benefits and. disease de-risking that drinking coffee. provides, and you compare that to all of the. health benefits that sleep provides, it's a remarkable overlap. So, people. were saying to me, "How do you square. that circle? Because that doesn't make. any sense." Well, if you look at the. data, the reason that drinking coffee is. so beneficial is because the coffee bean. itself contains a whopping dose of. antioxidants. And because in the Western world, we're.

so deficient in our dietary intake of. antioxidants. This one thing, the coffee bean, has. been asked to carry the Herculean weight. of all of our antioxidant needs. And. therefore, that's why drinking coffee. has such a health predictive signal in. the literature. Case in point, if you. look at decaffeinated coffee, it has almost the same health benefits. So, it's not the caffeine. It's the. antioxidants in the coffee bean itself.

So, again, with all of these things, with alcohol and caffeine, I am just a. scientist. I have no right to tell. anyone how to live their life. And I don't want to be the healthiest. person in the graveyard, either. Life is. to be lived, for goodness you know, joie. de vivre, for goodness' sake. Live a. little bit. All I simply want to do is empower you. with the scientific evidence, and then. you can make an informed choice as to. how you want to live your life. But, does that help a little bit in terms of. navigating caffeine and Yeah, absolutely.

huge. And the other thing you mentioned. at this point of the uh. the acronym is alcohol. And and you were talking about how just. the negative effects of alcohol in terms. of that disruption of our sleep. If. there were a couple of things you wanted. people to know about alcohol and sleep, what would they what would they be? Yeah, there I think I probably haven't. changed my tune, and I I don't see any. upside in terms of alcohol for health, or certainly for sleep. Alcohol is. probably the most misunderstood sleep.

aid that there is out there. Unfortunately, it's not an aid at all. Alcohol will hurt your sleep in at least. one of three different ways. The first thing is that alcohol is also. in the class of drugs that we call the. sedatives. And again, when you have a couple of. sort of nightcaps in the evening, you. say, "It helps me fall asleep.". Alcohol is simply helping you lose. consciousness more quickly. It's not really putting you into natural.

sleep. The second thing is that alcohol. will fragment your sleep in the first. half of the night. And the reason that. it does that is that alcohol will. activate the fight or flight branch of. the nervous system. Now, in the first. half of the night, that's when we get. most of our deep sleep. And when we go. into deep sleep, we shift from the fight. or flight branch of the nervous system. over to what we call the parasympathetic. nervous system, which is this quiescent. nervous branch. Now, alcohol will crank you back over to.

the fight or flight sympathetic nervous. system, which then makes your sleep, the. depth of your sleep, far more shallow, so you don't get as much deep sleep. You. wake up more frequently, but those. awakenings are so brief that you never. commit them to memory. So, you never. think alcohol is harming my sleep by. fragmenting it and sort of littering it. with all of these awakenings. So, your. deep sleep suffers. Your sleep is. fragmented. Then finally, alcohol is. very potent at blocking your dream sleep.

or your rapid eye movement sleep. And. dream sleep is critical for things like. emotional and mental health. It's. essential for creativity. It's also. important for hormonal health. It's. during REM sleep when we release our. peak levels of testosterone in both men. and women. And alcohol will sort of shortchange you. of that REM sleep. So, on all of those. counts, you know, I just can't say in. good conscience even a glass of wine. with dinner, you know, is that okay? We.

can see the blast radius. It is in some ways both a dose and also. time-dependent process such that if you. have, let's say, a glass of wine with. lunch versus a glass of wine with. dinner, the glass of wine with lunch. will have less of a damaging impact on. your sleep at night. So, the completely. politically incorrect thing that I would. never say on a podcast would be go to. the pub in the morning and that way the. alcohol is out of your system in the. evening and no harm, no foul. But no, of. course I would never suggest something.

like that. But yeah, what are you doing. tomorrow morning? No, I'm kidding. Like you said, I think it's so easy for. human just ideas that become. prevalent in human society that we just. take as being normal or habits and. practices that become normalized over a. certain period of time and we just start. operating like it's normal, it's okay, it's accepted and not really realizing. what's going on and and I'm also of the.

spirit of we should enjoy life and. appreciate life and and everything else. But I think to really appreciate life it. means to know what works for you and. what doesn't and what helps you and what. doesn't. Yeah. And and to really recognize the value of. the impact of that because I think it's. really easy to be like, oh yeah, well, you know, let's just see how things go. and then all of a sudden you hear about. a family member or friend who gets a. diagnosis and then. that's when it kind of really hits you. Yeah. And and I've had that far too. often where I've had friends and family. members at young ages diagnosed with.

things. and it's consistent with a habit. And by. the way, sometimes someone gets. something and it's got nothing to do. with their habits and. it's bad luck and it's, you know, everything else and both of those are. positions to be compassionate and. empathetic. Mhm. But I think when it. comes to ourselves I look at it and go I. would like it to not be my own fault. Yeah. happens from something beyond me, great. Yeah. But if I can avoid it by taking. responsibility and accountability for my. health, then that's probably a good play.

and a good way to live. Yeah, I I like. the way that you're thinking there in. the sense that. so many of us see sleep as a cost to our. lives. Yes. And instead I think what we have to. realize is think of sleep like an. investment in tomorrow, not a cost of. what I get for today. And you're right, when you look at, you know, some of the. mentality of, you know, I'll sleep when. I'm dead. I mean, firstly, what we know from the. data is that if we adopt that mentality, you will be both dead sooner and the.

quality of your life will be. significantly worse as a consequence. But, also if you look at the data. between short sleep and cardiovascular. disease, if you look at short sleep and. certain forms of cancer, not all forms. of cancer, short sleep and dementia. risk. Imagine if you were to say, in 20. years time when you're at the hospital. and you've just lost a third of your. heart function because you've had a. massive coronary blockage.

If I were to at that point say, I could. wave a magic wand right now in the. hospital at your bedside. and if only you could go back 20 years. and start investing in your sleep. instead of maybe adopting what some, not. all people, but some have the sort of. almost this It's almost like a sleep. machismo attitude, I think, in certain. sectors of the workplace. We've got this. competitive under sleeping, you know, mentality, the sleep bragadocio notion.

But, I know no one who, 20 years later. in a hospital, wouldn't say, "If I could. go back and remove all of this. cardiovascular. consequence that you've just had by way. of this heart attack, if only you'd gone. back and started just to try to invest. even just five or six days a week in. consistent good sleep, would you do it?". Most people at that point would say, "Absolutely. I wish I could take it. back." But, it's so hard for us to. prospect into the future and do.

backcasting. Many of us just can't do forecasting at. all very well in terms of our health. So, what do we do? We burn the candle at. both ends. Also, I think it's not. anyone's fault regarding this. global sleep loss epidemic and this. It isn't, yeah. consistent sort of sleep. neglect because firstly, I think society. is conspiring against us to get. sufficient sleep because sleep has this. image problem. We think of people who. get sufficient sleep as slothful, as.

lazy. But, sleep, whoever the PR agent for. sleep has been, we probably should have. fired them long ago because. You're the nuclear agent. But, I'm going. to try and push back at least. But, also. from a perspective of someone who. doesn't know anything about sleep, I. would just think, well, my body is at. rest, my mind is dormant. Like, how much danger is there really in. losing 1 hour of of sleep or even 2. hours of sleep? Surely, there's not much. danger. It can even actually change your very.

nucleic alphabet. So, I'll tell you. about a fascinating study that impressed. upon me the importance. They took. perfectly healthy individuals and they. limited them to 6 hours of sleep a night. for 1 week. By the way, 6 hours of sleep. a night for 1 week is actually what many. people are getting in society. At least. a third of the population seems to be. getting 6 hours or less during the week. So, it was a very sort of ecologically. relevant experiment. And then, they measured the change in. their gene activity profile relative to.

when those same individuals were getting. a full 8-hour night of sleep. And there. were two key findings. First, a sizable. and significant 711. genes were distorted in their activity. caused by that 6 hours a night of sleep. If that wasn't impressive enough, the. second was that about half of those. genes were increased in their activity. The other half were decreased. Now, the genes that were increased in. their activity were genes that were.

associated with biological stress, cardiovascular disease, genes that were. associated with the promotion of tumors. and genes that were associated with. long-term chronic inflammation within. the body. Whereas those genes that were actually. switched off or turned down were genes. associated with your immune system. And. so to me what that demonstrated was that. there's no aspect of our wellness that. can retreat at the sign of sleep. deprivation and get away unscathed. That.

it's almost like a broken water pipe in. your home. That sleep loss will leak. down into every nook and cranny of your. physiology and even tamper with the very. DNA alphabet that spells out your daily. health narrative. And so. why if you didn't know that evidence, why would you think that sleep is so. necessarily important? If I just as a. lay public person would be thinking, "Well, my mind's dormant, my body gets a. bit of a rest. Well, I can rest when I'm.

watching Netflix. My body gets plenty. enough rest there, so I don't need my. sleep." But if you think about it, sleep. is the most idiotic of all evolutionary. creations. You know, finding a mate, you're not reproducing, you're not. caring for your young, you're not. foraging for food, and worse, you're. vulnerable to predation. Sleep should. have been strongly selected against. during the course of evolution if it. wasn't important. It is absolutely important. It serves a. constellation of different vital. functions for brain and body.

But if I didn't know about them, of. course I'd neglect my sleep. So, I'm. simply saying that to both impress the. importance of sleep, but also try to be. compassionately sensitive to why I. understand people neglect it. Not. because they're trying to show how brave. and Teflon coated they are, it's just. because no one understands sleep. So, that's why I've tried to sort of make it. impart a mission for life is sleep has. been the the neglected step sister in. the health conversation of today. We.

speak a lot about diet and exercise, and. that's great. And because of people like. you, I think we're speaking so much more. about emotional and mental health, which. to me is the fourth pillar of life and. health. Sleep is one of those pillars, too, though. And so, hopefully this. helps a little bit. No, it's brilliant. Matt, I think you are the best PR agent. that sleep could ever ask for. I think. your. method of communication, the empathy and. compassion that comes with it, the lack. of judgement, and and at the same time. waking us up to the reality, which I.

think is an important part of the. narrative, comes across extremely. clearly. Uh and I'm so grateful, and I hope. you'll come on back on many, many times. I would uh to deepen this discussion, to. extend it. There's so much we didn't. even get to today, but we end every On. Purpose episode with a final five. And. these have to be answered in one word or. one sentence maximum. Ooh. But I know I'm going to break that rule. with you already. Uh so, the first question is, what is. the best sleep advice you've ever heard,

received, or given? Regularity, digital. detox. Going to bed at the same time, waking up. at the same time. Do that, so many other things like. quantity and quality will fall into. place. And then the second is, as much as you. can, in the last hour before bed, try to. stay off your phone. And in the morning, give yourself 10 minutes. Why? Because. what we do is we train ourselves What's. the first thing that most people do when. they wake up? They open their phone.

Yeah. And there's this wave, this. tsunami of anxiety comes flooding in. Every day you are training yourself when. you go to bed at night. to expect that huge wave of anxiety when. you wake up. It's what we call. anticipatory anxiety. And most people. will have had this. You have an early. morning flight, and you know you've got. to wake up for it. It's essential. And. you also know that your sleep that night. will be so shallow and so sort of. diminutive. Totally. Well, this is a diet version of.

that, but every single day by way of. swiping open on your phone next to you, just give yourself 10 minutes in the. morning. I promise your sleep will be. better. So, regularity digital detox. I. love it. Uh question number two, what's. the worst sleep advice you've ever. heard, received, or given? That you can. make up sleep at the weekend. You can't. accumulate a debt and then hope to fully. pay it off at the weekend. There's some. great evidence looking at all sorts of. brain and body metrics that for the most.

part, some of them you can kind of sleep. back at the weekend, but for the most. part when you look at your. cardiovascular system, your metabolic. system, your immune system, your. hormonal system, if you look at your. brain processes, your cognition, your. emotional um stability or instability, all of these things do not fully recover. by way of weekend sleep. So, you can't. do this binge purge process. So, I would. say that the myth of makeup sleep is.

unfortunately just that, that it's not. like the bank. Yeah, so you just have to. get into a good rhythm and a good. pattern and invest in it. It's just It's. never, yeah. if it was like that, trust me, you know, mother nature would have figured out a. way to have us short sleeping all the. time. Because it's sleep is so. deleterious to any organism, and if. there was a way to shortchange, we would. have been shortchanging long ago and it. would be baked into our sort of sleep. DNA biology. The fact that it's not, that human beings are the only species.

that will deliberately deprive. themselves of sleep for no apparent good. reason, is testament to the fact that. you just can't make it up like that. The. system doesn't work like that. Question. number three, how does What does bad. sleep do to your mental health? Firstly, you become much more emotionally. erratic. You become pendulum-like. You. become. is that? Yeah, part of the reason is. because there is a part of your. prefrontal cortex right down in the. middle. So, my prefrontal cortex sits. right above my eyes. It's the most.

evolved part of our sort of hominid. brain. It's what makes us human beings. That middle part of the brain acts like. almost a brake pedal on our emotional. accelerator regions deep in the brain. And when we are underslept, that part of. the brain gets shut down. So, now we. become all emotional gas pedal and too. little regulatory control brake, as it. were. And that's why we become so. reactive. We become, you know, it's that.

I just snapped {dot} {dot} {dot} fill in. the blank when I am underslept. So, firstly, our regulation of our emotions. becomes impaired as a consequence. Secondly, the anxiety centers of the. brain can become 30 to 40% more reactive. when we're not getting sufficient sleep. You can flip that narrative then and. say, "Well, if that's the bad that. happens when I take sleep away, what is. it about sleep when I do get it that is. beneficial?" And what we've discovered.

is that it's REM sleep or dream sleep. that provides a form of almost overnight. therapy. Dream sleep is emotional first aid. And. it's during dream sleep that your brain. takes those painful, difficult. experiences and acts almost like a. nocturnal soothing balm. And it just. takes the sharp edges off those painful, difficult experiences so that we come. back the next day and we feel better. about them. It's that idea of it's not.

time that heals all wounds. It's time. during sleep and specifically dream. sleep that provides emotional. convalescence. And there's a wonderful, gosh, I wish I'd come up with this quote. by an American entrepreneur E. Joseph. Cossman. And he once said that the best bridge. between despair and hope is a good night. of sleep. That's exactly what dream sleep. provides. If you love your family, the. best thing you can do is get a good.

night's sleep. When you have had a good. night of sleep, I think we all sense. this. You wake up and you are dressed in a. different set of psychological clothes. Absolutely. It's almost as though sleep. provides this sort of emotional. windscreen wiper benefit and we can see. clearly. And to me that's I think one of the most. powerful aspects. Sleep gives me back the rose in the tint. of my worldview glasses every single. morning. I I mean I I experience that.

all the time. I know what it can be like. if I haven't had a good night's sleep. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'll sometimes say. that to my my better half, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I'll say. to her, "Look, you know, darling, I am. I'm so sorry I didn't sleep well last. night. I am not the best version of. myself for whatever I do today, whatever. idiocy that I, you know, enunciate or. behave in. Yeah, please forgive me and I. will make sure that I will do all the. dishes for the next 2 months.". Yeah, sleep affects our our emotional. relationships, our our intimacy,

everything. Question number four. I I have something in my mind. I was. going to ask you, what have you seen as. being a surprising. connection that's connected to sleep? Something that sleep impacts that. surprised you. Something a bit that we. might not have heard of. We've done. some studies looking at what I would. think of as more complex pro-social. behavior. And what we found is that a lack of. sleep will immediately make someone.

become more asocial, meaning that they. withdraw socially. They do not wish to have the contact. with other people that they typically. do. They become therefore more isolated. They feel more lonely as a consequence. and we know that there is this epidemic. of loneliness happening. We didn't. realize how much a lack of sleep was. contributing to that. Worse still, when you interact with. someone who is sleep deprived and you. are well rested, having had that.

interaction with the sleep deprived. person, when we ask that person, "Do you. feel any more or less lonely in this. moment?" They rate themselves as now. feeling more lonely themselves having. interacted with a sleep deprived. individual. In other words, the. loneliness that a lack of sleep creates. is contagious and it is transmitted from. one person to the next. The second thing that we looked at was. perhaps one of the most fundamental.

components of us homo sapiens, which is. that we help each other. It's what we. call prosocial behavior. And I cannot imagine any modern. civilization that has emerged without. prosocial helping between individuals. It's a fundamental ingredient. We help. each other. And what we found is that when you are. under slept, you withdraw your natural tendency to. help other human beings. We observed it.

at the level of me helping other people. We observed it at the level of entire. groups helping each other. And we also. found it across entire nations and you. think, "How do you figure that one out?". There is a global experiment that's. performed on 1.6 billion people across. 70 countries twice a year and it's. called daylight savings time. And what we did, we looked at the. national donation database across the. United States,

which is in some ways a measure of. selfless. giving. I give to charity. I give to. other people. And what we found is that in the days. after the spring daylight savings time, when we lose 1 hour of sleep, there was. this huge dent in proactive giving by. way of donations to charities. We become more stingy. We become more. self-centered. So, I would say that it's. this new wave of sleep science that goes.

beyond the DNA nucleus that we spoke. about. It goes beyond cells. It goes. beyond physiological systems. It goes. beyond entire brain networks. It goes. beyond the organism themselves. It now. translates to a lack of sleep impacting. our interrelationships. and impacting the very fabric of society. itself. That to me has been stunning and. quite a surprise. That Yeah, that is a surprise. I was not. expecting that. Yeah. Uh fifth and final question. We. ask this to every guest who's ever been.

on the show, Matt. If you could create. one law that everyone in the world had. to follow, what would it be? Self-forgiveness. Why? Because I think that. there is so much. ill grace that is enacted by ourselves. on others. because we are not good with ourselves. that it makes me sad at sometimes. And I think so much of what we react to. others is really about a mirror being.

held up to ourselves and the pain of. that. that if we just let go and gave. ourselves self-compassion. and self-forgiveness. society would be, I think, demonstrably, which is to say demonstrably, better as a result. In truth, though, that's probably me. just holding a mirror up to myself to. your question. Beautiful. Uh Matt, thank. you so much for your incredible work. Uh incredible sharing of insights today,

and. I really hope you'll come back for. another episode because I have another. million questions to ask you. Uh thank you so much. I'm so grateful. for your time and energy. I hope. everyone who's been listening and. watching back at home, at work, whether. you're on a hike, whether you're with. your dog, whether you're on driving. right now, wherever you are, I hope that. you will find it. possible to try some, just one, even if. you just try one of Matt's suggestions. today, I really truly believe your life will. change. And as Matt said, it will impact.

all other areas of our lives. Please. prioritize your sleep and uh watch how. your life changes. Uh thank you so much, Matt. Thank you. And can I just say thank you. to you for what you do for society? You. have dedicated yourself to the wellness. and the health of the rest of humanity, but what I see as a big differentiator. is that you have a very genuine passion. for doing this. You mean it. when you say it. Thank you. And I think that's why, in.

part, you've had just this incredible. impact on society. Authenticity is a. very rare thing, and as human beings, we're actually very good at identifying. it and also identifying its absence. And. one of the reasons that I just have such. admiration for what you do is not just. that what you're doing is an incredible. service, but the authentic way that. you're doing it because you genuinely. mean it is something that I think is a. remarkable beauty to behold. So, for all.

that you do for society, thank you so. much. Well, thank you, Matt. That's. extremely gracious and kind. It. genuinely that touched my heart. Thank. you so much. Thank you. If you loved. this episode, you'll enjoy my interview. with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change. your life by changing your brain. If we. want a healthy mind, it actually starts. with a healthy brain. You know, I've had. the blessing or the curse to scan over a. thousand convicted felons and over a.

hundred murderers and their brains are. very damaged.