#1 Neuroscientist: Your Brain Is Wired to Fail! — Use THIS Hack to Finally Manifest What You Deserve

You know that feeling of I'm trying to. manifest but nothing's happening? Manifestation is not creating a fantasy. and then waiting for it to come true. with no action from yourself. Leading neuroscientist, best-selling. author, Dr. Tara Swart. You cannot undo. a negative thought pattern. We have to. overwrite it with a new one. Your brain. it's two and a half times more strongly. wired to avoid risk than it's to get a. reward. Wow. The number one health and wellness. podcast. Jay Shetty. JAY SHETTY. THE.

ONE, the only, Jay Shetty. For so long, ancient wisdom and the. wisdom of the East especially has been. seen through two lenses. I think there's. been a lot of enthusiasm towards it and. a lot of value and reverence. And at the. same time, I think there's been, as you. say, skepticism and cynicism around it. And so to have someone with your of your. caliber, your research, your insight, and communicating in the way you do, I. think is such a great blessing and.

benefit for for the industry in and of. itself. So, thank you so much for the. work you do. Really means the world. But let's let's. dive straight in. And and if you hear me and Tara lock. into some uh. what would I call them? Inside jokes. because we're both North Londoners, then. just please roll with us. But Tara, I wanted to start off with. where did you and why did you get so. passionate about this work and finding. the parallels between ancient wisdom and. modern science? And why did that work.

call you? As you know, I grew up in. North London and I was the oldest child. of first-generation immigrant parents. So, I always felt like I was bridging. two worlds. You know, I went to school, I didn't have any Indian friends, and um. I just wanted to fit in with my friends. And then I would come home and obviously. we would have like the altars and the. incense and the ceremonies and the. rituals and everything. And so, yeah, I. would say for most of my childhood, I. was living in two worlds. And then at.

the age of 18, I went to medical school. and I think I moved very much away from. our cultural heritage and just lived. like a teenager and someone in their 20s. at university. And I was at university. for most of my 20s cuz um I did medical. school and a PhD, so 9 years at. university. Around the time that I. became a doctor, yoga was becoming quite popular in in. society. So, I sort of returned to that. and I would say that reignited my. interest in our cultural heritage. And.

but then still I would keep it very. separate from my work. So, I was working. in the NHS, you know, that really wasn't. very holistic. Um but at home I was. eating in an Ayurvedic way and doing. yoga and sometime passed and these. things came more into our culture. anyway. But still at the time that I. wrote The Source, it was a risk for me. as an MIT professor to start speaking. about manifestation and visualization. and meditation and things like that. But.

writing it really for me actually. brought those two things together and. and made me think I don't have to keep. my personal life separate from my. professional life. And I have to say. thank you to everyone that the response. to it then, you know, took that even. further. As we were discussing, you. know, we both had books out around that. time, couldn't really do world promo. because of the pandemic. But very early on in the pandemic, I. thought, "Oh no, there's going to be a. huge mental health crisis." And it was. so unprecedented, I thought, "What can I.

offer. that isn't already available to people?". But I will caveat that by saying I think. all of the ancient wisdom and knowledge. that I try to apply to modern mental. health problems is it's just things that. we've forgotten. It's not anything new. But it's about bringing, you know, finding those things. It's like my gold. mining and bringing them to people and. saying this could really help you." It's. fascinating that all of these things. have been practiced for thousands and. thousands of years, and. ironically, we've also had mental health.

and anxiety challenges for much longer. than we believe we have. And I often. think of the Bhagavad Gita and Arjun, which, you know, was spoken 5,000 years. ago, but that experience that he's. having on the battlefield is anxiety, stress. Mhm. He's having a sense of a loss of. identity. He's worried about the. surroundings and the impending war. that's about to take place. And so, you. see that in a text that's 5,000 years. old. And then you have all of this.

wisdom that surrounds it. But being able. to translate that into into what's. happening now is is so needed. And And I. guess that's why you had that positive. response. Yeah, and what I found really. interesting is that it would be one. thing if you and I sat here and talked. about our own cultural heritage. But. what I found is that if you look at the. ancient Greeks, ancient Egyptians, Babylon, and you know, all sorts of. other ancient cultures, the first. Americans, that there are so many. similar themes of the things that keep. us healthy. And such new science as if.

it's just been discovered in the last. year or two, like things like connection. to nature. I mean, how were we not understanding. that for so long, you know? I think. because there were no planes in the sky. and less traffic, and our time in nature. in this country, anyway, was limited. People were allowed like a 1-hour walk. outside during the day at some points. The appreciation of nature grew. And then, suddenly, as if from nowhere, comes out the science that. time in nature helps your mental health,

your physical health, your longevity, it. boosts your immunity. That there's just a an impact of that. awe-inspiring. sort of feeling of being in beautiful. nature, um, on the way that your brain. works. There are so much more than. science that. is actually not one of those things is. new. Yeah, absolutely. It's not new at. all. This this idea. then that we have the power to change. our destiny, this idea that.

we have the power to. propel our lives, whether it's careers, whether it's relationships, we have the. ability to shift and pivot. A lot of people will hear that and they. think to themselves, "Well, that doesn't happen for me. It. happens for those people.". They hear that and think, "Yeah, you. can't really think your way into. anything.". Or people hear it and say, "Nah, I tried. that once and it didn't work for me.". How do you approach that conversation of.

helping people realize the power that. they hold and the power of what's. possible for any one of us? I love the. way you've kind of segued that from. nature into manifestation because. a few things here. One thing is that if. you just observe nature, you see. manifestation all the time. You know, you see a flower growing from a bud into. a fully formed flower and then its. petals starting to fall. You see trees. growing, you know, all sorts of things. And the other connection there is that. creating the environment within yourself. and around yourself to allow things like.

manifestation to happen. And that. basically means, at the simplest level, that you set a goal. You say, "This is. what I want my life to be like." Or this. is a specific thing I want in my life. And then there's a process that leads. that to potentially manifesting in the. real world. But I do agree with one of. those skepticism points, which is that. you can't sit at home and think about. it. So, I've been really, really clear. about saying that it's Manifestation is. not creating a fantasy. and then waiting for it to come true.

with no action from yourself. So, I. actually renamed vision boards action. boards, as if to say that yes, create. imagery that represents what you want, but then you have to be doing something. every day to move yourself closer to. that. Whether it's being healthier just. so that your brain's in a better. environment or it's networking or dating. or, you know, saving money, whatever it. is that's going to get you, let's say, the house that you want. You know, a. great example is people might say. I I'd of course I'd love a house in the.

Hamptons, but if that's not realistic. for you in the short term, then you'll. only reinforce the fact that you're. failing at manifesting. So, it's better. to say, "I'd like to be on the property. ladder." And start there and then. obviously build bigger. Did you find a difference and I want to. get into the science and research part. to show the validity of what you're. saying? Did you find a difference in the. science of measuring extrinsic and. intrinsic motivators? Because I feel. like manifestation is still always about. what do you want? Where do you want to.

be? And. as, you know, honestly, I can only speak. I can only really speak for myself, but. when I think about it for me, I've if. someone asked me what that was, I've. always wanted to just wake up and do. what I love every day. Like that's. that's really all I care about. And so, it's all I care about is I want to wake. up and do what I love every day and. hopefully improves the lives of other. people. And if those two things can go. together. And I find that a lot of manifestation. stems around like what kind of house do. you want and what kind of car do you.

want and what what kind of life do you. want? And and it gets very extrinsic. And so, I wonder whether I'm I'm. intrigued. I'm really curious to know. what the science suggests about when. you're having an action board towards an. intrinsic motivator or an extrinsic. motivator. There's a lot to unpack here. Please. Um I'm I'm all ears. I'm here as a. student to just listen because I'm so. fascinated. So, in terms of the motivation, to make. it really easy for people to understand, I called it magnetic desire, which is. something that is so. emotionally driven for you personally,

underlined with, you know, what's. logically doable in your life and what. your intuition tells you and, you know, what your creative brain can help you to. achieve. that if you have magnetic desire for. something. then you know, I always say if you. follow your passion you will be. successful. But I'm mindful that that. statement and even your one of I just. want to wake up and do what I love are. extremely privileged statements. So with. manifestation one of the criticisms is. that you know, that's a luxury for. people who already have.

you know, more than what they need and. then they can say oh well, I would love. you know, to do this or have this and so. I think what I've learned. and where I have ever felt slightly. defensive around that statement is. that whoever you are, wherever you are. there is one tiny thing that you could. do to make your life better and it's the. micro changes that build you up to. getting to a point where maybe you can. actually do something that you love. rather than. do what you have to do to put food on.

the table for your children. But having said that, if your. ideas for what you want to manifest are. things like well, all my friends are. getting married and having family. So I. want to get married and have a family. rather than I've really thought about. what I want to do and my passion and. purpose might mean that I have to delay. having a family and that's okay. It's more likely to work out with the. second one than the one that's kind of. too guided by parental expectation, societal expectation,

career, you know, aspirations. So do you. think people have to dig deeper for. manifestation to you know, really work. well? Mhm. Yeah, walk me through some of. the science that. and the research that validate some of. these claims because. I think that's your. that's your unique perspective and. that's been the unique angle that you. brought to it and I feel like it's great. to understand that this stuff is. actually being researched, tested, discovered. It's not just. being said because it not just sounds.

good but that maybe there's a couple of. case studies, but there's more than. that. So there's two main sort of areas. around that. One is the sort of. six themes that I. narrowed down from the 12 laws of. attraction that I could explain with. cognitive science, which is neuroscience. and psychology. So when I first started. that research, I saw that there wasn't. even agreement over what the laws of. attraction were or how many there were. So I thought, okay, let me distill this. down to like something that makes sense.

to me and then like see what we can do. with it. So the first one is abundance. because one of the strongest gearings in. the brain is loss avoidance. So to. survive when we lived in the cave, we. had to stay safe rather than take risk. Now for most of us who are lucky enough, you know, to live in the modern world. and have basic safety around us, it's. healthier for us to be willing to take. risk. So you actually have to override. that ancient wiring of the brain which. says, No, no, don't go and like, you know, fly.

to London and try to have meetings with. lots of different people who may not. want to meet you. Stay in LA cuz that's. safer and you've got your community. around you and, you know, you know. you've got a big network. So for you to say, well, I'm going to go. to a new I know it's not it was your. home, but in terms of like recent work, you know, kind of take a bit of risk, take a week out there, you know, see who. I can interview. That is you overriding. that part of your brain that might say. it would just be easier for me to stay. in LA. So it's it's as simple as that.

It can obviously be a lot harder than. that as well, but it's understanding. that your brain will do quite a lot to. stop you from taking risk. It's two and. a half times as strongly wired to avoid. risk as it is to gain reward. Say that. part again. That's. It's two and a half times more strongly. wired to avoid risk than is to get a. reward. Wow. It's about believing that there are. enough resources out there for everyone. And that by, you know, perhaps entering. a new career pool or a new community of.

people, that it doesn't mean that you're. likely to fail. If you've managed to be. in an abundant state, cuz what that does. in the brain. is it moves the brain away from the fear. and shame kind of states, which. correlate with the stress hormone. cortisol, to the love and trust and joy. and excitement states, which correlate. with the bonding hormone oxytocin. Now, when your brain is in that state, it's. much more likely to take a healthy risk. It's much more likely to ask someone for. a favor. We were talking about, you. know, asking each other for favors. before. You wouldn't do that if you.

thought, "Well, don't ask Jay, cuz he'll. just shut you down." Then, you would. never ask anyone. But if you start a. conversation and someone looks like they. want to be generous and help you, then, you know, you go into that oxytocin. mode. But you need to be pushing. yourself into that mode as much of the. time as you can. So, the second one is manifestation, which is believing that with your. abundant resources, you can do things in. the real world that mean that, whether. it's that feeling of I do what I love or. it's an actual house, that you have it.

in your capability to make that happen. Cuz of course, if you believe it will. never happen for me, one of these common. statements, that's likely to become. true. That's manifestation, too. It's. just negative manifestation. Um and it's. important to say that both manifestation. and the process of neuroplasticity, which I will describe in detail, which. is how your brain changes to allow you. to grow and grasp new opportunities, they both have a good side and a bad. side. And the classic example of a bad.

side of neuroplasticity. is obsessing over an ex after a breakup. Because what you're saying to your brain. is, "This is what people do. You know, you. trust them and then they leave you." And. you just remind yourself of all the. times that you should have like seen the. signs, and then, you know, all the times. that it went wrong. That's also inducing. neuroplasticity and potentially. manifestation in your brain, because if. you don't make a change after that, your relationship pattern will stay the. same and you'll reinforce it further.

with more breakups and more, you know, sort of choices of partners aren't like. ideal for you. The third one is the magnetic desire. that I already discussed, which means. that it has to be really authentic to. you, but also aligned, in simple terms, in your head, your heart, and your gut, but in the source I talk about six ways. of thinking, which are logical, emotional, physical, intuitive, motivational, and. creative. So, if you think of something. that you want, and you ask yourself in six different. questions, you know, why do I want this.

logically? Why do I want it intuitively? And you can get a really good answer to. those, then it's likely that, you know, you will be able to manifest that. Then. there's patience, which is to do with. neuroplasticity. So, until we had. sophisticated scanning technologies, a lot of this work, cognitive science. work, was all thought to be. psychological rather than neurological. So, it would kind of be like, "Oh, you. know, Jay, you're not mentally strong. enough. You gave up too quickly." And it. would kind of infer an intangible.

psychological weakness that is kind of. your fault. And I think that's another. criticism of manifestation as well, that. if it doesn't work, then there's. something wrong with you. If you understand that it's actually. physical work, when you're changing. something, when you're striving for. something, you're actually connecting up. neurons or nerve cells in your brain. that weren't connected previously. You may even be growing new nerve cells. from little embryonic, you know, baby. nerve cells that then connect up with. ones that already exist. And you may.

also be. adding an insulating coat around. existing neural pathways to make them. faster, um to make them more efficient. So, the. patience piece is because a lot of hard. work goes on. You know that feeling of if trying to. manifest, but nothing's happening? that's in the patience piece. Because. when you get to a critical mass of. neurons that have created a new pathway. that is stronger than the pathway you. had before. So, let's say it's just the. things like that never happened for me. pathway changes to a.

well, actually I've seen Jay do it, so. maybe it could happen for me pathway. That takes a lot of effort, but once you. get to the critical mass of enough. neurons, suddenly it feels like everything's easy. and everything's manifesting. And I do. feel like people have to get a taste of. that before, you know, at least once. with a quick win. to have the courage to take it to the. next level. Mhm. And the last two which. um I didn't expand on too much in the. source are um harmony and universal.

connection. And harmony is kind of also to do with. the fact that you're aligned in. yourself, but it also means that it. should be aligned like with the world, like you're not doing some harm to get. what you want. And universal connection. is about the fact that, you know, we are. all interrelated. If you believe that. you can achieve something because there. are enough resources in the world for. everyone, then you should also be. generous and pay it forward. You've kind. of forgotten what you dreamed of when. you were a child. You know, maybe you've. just given up your real passion. And. often it does take.

a later disruption like a divorce or a. bereavement to really make people. rethink that. If you're around people. who were only doing what you do, who. also had self-limiting beliefs, who, you. know, had maybe some things even against. being entrepreneurial, you might have stayed stuck where you. were. Wealth can be having a lot of. money, but it can also be waking up. every day and doing what you love. Nobody needs help spending money. Sometimes it feels like the whole world. is trying to spend your money. Your.

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Tier 6 compensation provided. Investing. involves risk. Acorns Advisers LLC an. SEC-registered investment adviser. View. important disclosures at. acorns.com/purpose. As I'm listening to. I'm just thinking that so much of our. psychology has been made so limited and. scarce. When I think about the way we. talk about our relationship with money. Mhm. You may have grown up in a family. that says, "Oh, we have just enough to. survive.". Mhm. Or. "We don't need more. We have We have all.

we need.". Mhm. And those things become so. hardwired. And therefore, as we get older, it. becomes hard to change them, right? And. so, that also applies to love. It's. like, "Oh, if someone says, 'Oh, my. parents had a bad marriage.'" Like, I I'm just scared I'm going to repeat. it. And then that becomes their. narrative. When we're talking about changing those, does every thought count? Does every. thought matter? Like, talk me through. that. Yeah, absolutely every single. thought matters. And that's why there's. an old Buddhist saying that is replace.

every negative thought with a positive. thought. And neuroplasticity completely. backs that up because the way we rewire. our brains is not that we So, basically, we cannot undo a negative thought. pattern or a negative relationship. pattern. We have to overwrite it with a. new one. So, rather than focusing on the. negatives, which is, you know, to do. with that abundance piece, it's better. to work out what do I need to do. differently. to not keep repeating this. obstacle or challenge that keeps coming.

up in my life. So, the way that it. physically works, the process that. underpins neuroplasticity is underpinned. by neuroplasticity, is a four-step process, and it starts. with raised awareness, which is kind of. what you've already said, which is. really monitoring your thoughts, understanding what the beliefs are that. are underneath driving those thoughts, and making you make the decisions that. you make in the real world. And I would. suggest that people spend at least a. month monitoring that with journaling, maybe talking therapy,

maybe talking to a friend as long as, you know, your very clear that they that. their agenda for you kind of doesn't, you know, affect that. And then the. second stage is focused attention. So, that is then, let's say you notice a. particular pattern that you have. Let's. say it's around money. Notice the next. time, again for a month, probably, that. you don't buy something cuz you don't. feel you deserve it cuz you think it's. too expensive. Or you wait for something. to go into the sale, and then you miss. out on getting it. You know, so, things. like that. So, any any money behaviors.

or love behaviors, whichever. And at first, don't try to change. anything, but just notice it like maybe straight. after it happened. Then try to in time get yourself to. notice when it's happening and see if. you can reframe it. Maybe you can, maybe. you can't. And then to try to get yourself to the. stage where you think, "Normally I. wouldn't buy this cuz I don't think I. deserve it, but today I'm going to treat. myself because I believe in abundance. and I believe that I will achieve. the, you know, career aims that I have.

that will make me able to afford that.". The third stage is deliberate practice, which is that you regularly practice the. new desired behavior until it becomes so. ingrained in your brain that it's. actually easier for you to do that than. default to the old behavior. And the last part, it's not really one. of the stages, it takes you through the. whole process, is accountability. So, how do you hold yourself accountable? Some people have a coach or a therapist. or a partner that might hold them. accountable. If you don't and you need to do it by.

yourself, then a board is a really good. way of doing it because you've clearly. stated what you want. You can see if. you, you know, got it or not. At the end. of the year, you can say, "I manifested. 60% of the things that I wanted." And I. also use an app called Habitshare where. I I record like 12 micro habits each. year. and I can track them. I can share them. if I want to. I found that was better for me than New. Year's resolutions because I could just. take two or three of them and try to. like bring them into my toolkit each. quarter of the year. And then by the end of the year, I would.

find like eight of 10 of or 10 of those. were habits already. So, I kind of do. that alongside my bigger goals. Mhm. I find like when. people think about this, one of the. things that kind of keeps tripping them. up is. I can say it and I can think it, but I. don't believe it. Yeah. Right? And I'm. sure you've heard that a million times. That fear of like. okay, well, you know, I don't believe I. can start living my passion and I don't. believe that I can do what I love for. work, or I don't believe that I have.

It's It's possible for someone like me. to. achieve whatever else it may be. And then, I can say it to myself before. I go to bed, but I don't believe it. Because I don't believe it, I stop doing. it after two to three days. What's the difference between someone. who's practicing this in a way that it. works, and we'll get on to action in a second, but at least practicing the belief. change? Because I'm I'm fully with you, by the way. Like, I remember I had a mentor. that used to constantly would say to me, he'd say, "Jay, you're an entrepreneur.

You're an entrepreneur. You're You're an. entrepreneur." And at this time, I was. working a full-time job, 9:00 to 5:00, and getting paid whatever it was. And he'd keep telling me, but like, "Jay, you're an entrepreneur." And I'd. keep telling him, I'd be like, "No, I'm. not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm I'm. an artist. I'm a creative. I'm. definitely not an entrepreneur. The last. thing I want to do is run a business. Like, that's just not who I am." And if. you asked me, I would have said I'm a. very self-aware person at this point in. my life. It wasn't that I didn't reflect. enough. I felt like I really knew who I. was. And I was like, "This is And then,

it was only when I was required to have. to be an entrepreneur did I have to. shift into that gear and become one.". But if you still ask me today, I'm like, "I'm an entrepreneur, but I much prefer. being a creative and an artist and and a. thinker. That's That's where I thrive, if you ask me.". Yeah. But I did something when I was. required to do it. So, I'm I see you. smiling, and so I want to I want to hear. your reaction to what I'm sharing. Four. things there, so I'm going to hope I can. remember them all. The first one is that. there's a step before what you said, which is that some people aren't even.

aware that they don't think they deserve. it. So, I discovered something quite by. accident, which was a theme of people. selecting images for their vision board, placing them onto the board, even. spending the time to like shuffle them. around, make sure it all like looks and. feels right, and then telling me that. they never stuck them down. Wow. And I. just had a light bulb moment, and I. said, "You haven't stuck them down cuz. you don't believe you deserve them. And. the person just like, you know, had a. bit of a meltdown. And so every time. I've I've heard someone do, you know, a. variation on that theme, I've I've.

talked about deservingness. So some so like even that has to be. known in the first place, right? Or we think it's too ridiculous or too. out there or. right. Next, I do think it's about who. you surround yourself with. So I started. smiling when you said I had a mentor. because that already means that you've. sought out someone that's going to. challenge your thinking, that's going to. push you to be your best. And and my. version of that is that. like I said, I spent 9 years at. university to become a medical doctor in. the NHS. I did not believe that I could.

do anything else. I didn't I had a. vocational degree. I didn't have a more. general degree where I could say I could. go and, you know, apply to do something. else. My best friend whose kids I was just. babysitting, um. she had read biochemistry at Oxford. She'd worked in the dot-com explosion. And then she just announced to our sort. of closer circle one day at dinner, "I'm. going to give it all up and go and uh. study a master's in sculpture.". And I remember thinking. that's incredible, but I could never do that.

And it was only kind of like 1 and 1/2. or 2 years later that I then said, "I'm. leaving medicine.". And I remember my brother said to me, "I'm really proud of you, but I could. never do that." So it's always like. there's a chain of. Totally. Yeah. And if you're around. people who were only doing what you do, who also had self-limiting beliefs, who. you know, had maybe some things even. against being entrepreneurial, you might have stayed stuck where you. were. And then the next stage is a lot.

of people try and then give up, right? And. I'm not saying this is for everyone, but. when I changed career, I went from. having a, you know, not very high but. stable salary to having nothing. And that was the case for quite a while. And a few people said to me, "Please, just go and like work in the hospital. for one weekend. You'll be able to pay. your rent and like not, you know, kind. of worry about money so much.". And a lot of people hold down a. part-time job when they're becoming an. entrepreneur, but I said, "If I do that,

I will feel like I failed.". So, for me, I had to burn my boats. Like, there was no way back. I had to. succeed. And like I said, I'm not saying. that's right for everyone, but everyone. will have their version of of the thing. that will really make them say, "I I. cannot fail." Mhm. That initial. challenge of like you're saying that. even becoming aware that we don't. believe we deserve something or. something's meant for us, it can be such. an uncomfortable discovery. Mhm. Because. it almost starts.

indicating towards the fact that. there are past experiences, past. traumas, past relationships that you now. have to go back to and uncover and. unlearn and understand because. you've almost been living in a sense of. darkness in that area of your life. And. I think that can be really disconcerting. because it requires so much time. to actually and and energy to actually. go back there and excavate and look at. it and and face it head-on.

What does science have to say about how. can we look at our past? How can we look. at our wiring in a healthy way rather. than a judgmental way? Because we could. just turn around and say, "I'm the worst. that I've been thinking this way." You. start criticizing yourself. "I've I've. wasted so much time. I always hear even. sometimes I hear people and they're. like, 'I wish I started when I was 18. I. wish I started when I was 25.' And. there's this regret. Mhm. that's underlying that feeling even. if they did change. How do we look at.

our past and look at change in a. healthier way rather than a negative. way? I think one of the things that. you're talking about is this idea of. having really in-depth psychotherapy and. having to like uncover every trauma in. your life to like. get to the point where you're healed. enough to move forward. I am obviously a. fan of therapy and you know, for many. reasons, but I don't particularly think. that you have to uncover every trauma in. your life to you know, be able to move. forward. The career change that I made. in fact was to coaching. So, coaching.

tends to be more forward-looking, more. you know, sort of positive-looking. unless there's you know, some kind of. major trauma. I don't think it's necessary to dig. everything up in like years of. psychotherapy. Um but there are some sort of. models in science that can be quite. useful for people whether you know, it. could just be self-discovery. So, there's one called Ghosts in the. Executive Suite. And that talks about the childhood. systems that you grew up in and the fact.

that the wiring that was embedded in the. first seven and then also the first 14. years of your life. are likely to be very non-conscious now. in adulthood, but still driving a lot of. your behaviors. And so, the business. side of that is called in the Executive. Suite cuz it's looking at CEOs who are. behaving in a certain way. um because of those, but it can apply to. anyone's life and it looks at things. like the boundaries and the values and. the secrets and the sort of identities. that you had as a child. So, you know, you may have had a home where everyone.

was welcome to drop in and they would. just be added into the family meal and. they could stay the night. And I may. have been in you know, growing up in a. home where you had to plan everything in. advance if someone was coming over then. you know, the people would make sure. there was enough food and make sure that. a bed was made in advance and all this. kind of thing. And then um you know, values tend to be. a lot of around money. So, you know, you. may have grown up in a household where. people say money is a bad thing. Um it's not good to have too much of it. You know, even in many religions they.

say that if you're excessively wealthy. that your chances of going to heaven are. kind of lower. So, you know, there's a. lot of that rhetoric in our society. Um, identification. is about things like, "Oh, you're just. like your father. Oh, you're just like. you you know, your uncle used to be.". Um, secrets is we never talk about that. alcoholic uncle kind of thing. And roles. include things like were you the. peacemaker, were you the go-between, and. all of those sorts of things may. influence you later in life without you. realizing it. But, there is self.

exploration and you know, other work. that you can do with people to help you. uncover that. And also the really good news is that. Freud talked about. stages of child psychosocial development. and things like trauma, neglect, abandonment, separation from parents, illness. and described in great detail what would. go wrong with you for the rest of your. life if you experienced any of those. things. And then later, a psychologist called. Erikson came along and talked about the.

vice and the virtue. So, he said, "If. you have a childhood trauma at a certain. age, then this is what could go wrong, but this is also your opportunity for. something to go really right." And what. I find is that a lot of the CEOs or. really successful entrepreneurs that I. work with had their first childhood. disruption between the ages of 5 and 7. where the vice and the virtue are. inferiority or industry. And industry meaning hard work, so being. industrious. So, that means if you did.

have a trauma at that age, then you. could either spend the rest of your life. feeling inferior and undeserving. or you could say, "I'm going to work so. hard. I'm going to get myself out of. this situation of poverty forever. I'm. going to be self-sufficient. I'm going. to be financially independent.". You know, there's several other There's. trust, mistrust, and you know, other. kind of vices and virtues that people. can look up. It's all on the internet. Yeah, that. kind of opening of the idea that you. went through this, but it could also be. an opportunity of this impediment could.

also be an invitation. Mhm. Like that kind of understanding I. find to be really powerful. And I would. agree with you. I think the most. purposeful people I've met are people. who went through a pain point and now. they don't want other people to go. through that pain or they want to help. people through that pain. And that's. what created their ability to do that. Whereas someone else who may not have. had that pain or may not have had that. challenge almost can it sometimes feel. less clear or a bit more lost because.

they don't know what the meaning of. their life is or or where they stand. I. think what often happens with those. people is that you know, life's just. okay. Life's fine. You're married, you. know, your kids are healthy. You're. going to this, you know, sort of regular. day job. And. you've kind of forgotten what you. dreamed of when you were a child, what. your, you know, maybe you've just given. up your real passion because. it's fine to have this kind of quite. easy life. And And often it does take.

a later disruption like a divorce or a. bereavement to really um. make people rethink that. And so, you know, a big example that affected a. lot of people is the financial crisis. So, a lot of people in financial. services lost their jobs. And then said, "Actually, I always wanted to be a. teacher or a journalist, but I. also wanted a more expensive lifestyle, so I didn't make that choice. And now I have the opportunity to do. what I really want to do. So, it I guess. it depends on how you define wealth. Cuz.

wealth can be having a lot of money, but. it can also be waking up every day and. doing what you love. What happens in. this life and in this physical world and. on this material plane. can't be the be-all and end-all of. everything. And if it's not, what does. that mean about how I want to live? Cortisol correlates with five emotions. which we will experience if we're under. stress. So, that's fear, anger, disgust, shame, and sadness. And then the bonding. hormone oxytocin correlates with love,

trust, joy, and excitement. And in. between those two is So, the more you. have trained your brain to go into the. oxytocin mode, the less of the time it. can possibly be in the stress mode. I. feel like we live in a time right now. where and you alluded to this earlier. and I'm kind of going back to it. We. live in a time where there's a lot of. projected goals and expectations. And a lot of people can feel like. they're so far away from their own goals.

because there's goals from other people. around them. Now, my mentor. I'm still good friends with him, knew me. very well, and so he wasn't projecting. his entrepreneurial thing. He was seeing. something that I couldn't. But a lot of. the times there's like society like, "Oh, let's live in hustle culture. Everyone needs to be an entrepreneur. Everyone needs to be a CEO. Everyone. needs to like there's a there's a lot of. performance culture out there and. productivity culture." And I find that a. lot of people either struggle with that.

weight of that expectation or they. actually curl up into a ball and kind of. don't want to go anywhere and do. anything and it makes them hide from. that as well because it's almost like. everyone's just pushing them to be more. ambitious and be more driven. At the same time, I would love to understand the. psychology of being needing to open up. to more challenges and more. opportunities is just a healthy way of. living. So, if someone's stuck in that. space of. you know, Tara and Jay, I'm just you. know, I'm I'm kind of stuck because.

I do want more. I I'm trying to get. there that I believe I deserve it, but. then I don't know if it's that's what I. really want or if it's what my parents. want or what social media wants me to. want or what my friends are doing. Mhm. Um I just want to go back to. something cuz I only actually twigged. when you said Tara and Jay that my. brother's name is Jay. Oh, no way. Yeah. And I didn't put it together like. that. And I wanted to say something that. he said to me when I changed career and. I was like in my mid-30s then. He said the best time to plant an acorn. was 200 years ago, but the second best.

time is now. Mhm. So, if anyone that's. saying it's too late, you know, I regret. things, I think that's a really amazing. saying. And then. before you started really like posing. your question and I understood like. where you were going with it, I thought, oh, I wanted to tell you. about um at the start of the pandemic. when I said I sort of like saw that I. thought there could be a really big. mental health crisis. Quite quickly, I'd. say within like a month or two, I. thought, this is also an opportunity for. a spiritual revolution or evolution.

And so, in all the research I've done since kind. of the end of the pandemic, at the. official end, I guess, um which is more. about ancient wisdom and. neuroaesthetics, I believe that returning to ancient. practices like chanting, humming, drumming, singing, and neuroaesthetics is is neuro arts. It's the science of. why beauty and art and creativity and. nature are so healthy for us.

So, if you immerse yourself in nature, if you spend time making or beholding. creative things like either singing or. going to listen to a concert. or sketching or going to an art gallery, etc., that actually opens up your mind. in a way that the modern world and all. that noise around you that you've just. described doesn't let us. So, that allows a level of introspection. and there's so many other things in that. category that, you know, one can do, but.

that really helps you to separate. your inner voice from. all the words around you that are. telling you what you should do. And I. also always say, there's a certain age. and it could be different for different. people where there there's no more. should. You know, you've got you've got to an. age now where what your parents should. you said you should do or what you think. you should do, or what your friends are. doing. It's not It cannot be applicable. forever because. that is probably the one thing you'll. regret on your deathbed, right? So, taking that time, but it is so hard cuz. you know, I still hear people saying,

"Oh, I go for my nature walk, but I. listen to a podcast at the same time.". That's not giving you time for. introspection. Um and I'm sure you're. one of the few people that will agree. with me that. we aren't doing it like enough or any. being. We're just always doing. I often say to people, "When do you sit. down and actually do nothing?" And I. think that people maybe, not if they. know me well, but if they look at my. career, would say, "She's She's probably. She probably never sits down and does. nothing." I do a lot of sitting down and. doing nothing. Me, too. Yeah. Um I.

think, you know, to access yourself, nature is a massive mirror for us. So, time in nature, you know, and the. science for that in the last few years. has just rocketed. Um interestingly, at. the same time, the science around having a purpose that. transcends yourself, so not one that. earns the money that you need to just. live your life, not even one that just. makes you happy and satisfied in. yourself, but one that is more. altruistic, is actually very um. expanding for our consciousness. And And.

I think that's probably what we're. really getting at, a conversation that I. don't have with many people, but I feel. like I could have with you, which is. that we need to sort of be able to. access altered states of consciousness. to really understand what our soul's. purpose is in this life. And breathwork. is a great way of doing that, too. Obviously, there's a popular sort of. trend at the moment for plant medicine. And And, you know, I'm watching the. research on that at Johns Hopkins really. carefully, and it And there's a lot of. positive stuff around it, but what I'd.

really like to say to people is it's. nothing that you can't achieve through. time in nature, breathwork, meditation, nourishing your body with really healthy. food, sleeping really well, and crucially having that really like. positive meaningful community around. you. What what's your understanding so. far about the soul's purpose of what. you've been able to discover and cover. on on this journey? I did do some. research into near-death experiences and. terminal lucidity and dark retreats. The.

original scientific interest in that was. to understand the nature of. consciousness more in terms of how. separate it can be from the body. So, if we look at the research on. near-death experiences, then we see that. people who. had the physical signs that as a medical. doctor I would say they were dead. So, whether it was the amount of time that. your heart had stopped beating or your. brain waves had. gone flat, have then somehow, which we. can't explain, been able to become. conscious in that body again and and.

describe an experience that they've had. whilst. seemingly not in their body. What's. really interesting about that research. is you don't have to have had that. experience yourself, cuz people will. say, "Well, you know, okay, that's great. for those people if it made them. understand their soul's purpose, but we. can't all have that." Although, you. actually can if you go and do a dark. retreat, which is why I then looked into. those. And you know, in the. ancient cultures like the Greeks and. Egyptians, they used to bury people for. days. to mimic death. And then when they.

uncovered them, they were the people. that became like the mystics and the. seers of those communities. So, again, just things that we've. forgotten. But if you, you know, there's an amazing book called After by. Dr. Bruce Greyson, or if you just like look into the. research around near-death experiences, most common themes that people say are, "I feel more compassionate. I feel more. connected. I feel more grateful. I want to do things to help people. And I just see beauty like in everything. that's around me." And that that's.

supported by the modern science of. neuroesthetics. We can all choose to do. that. You know, we don't have to have a. near-death experience to do that. If. we're living more like that, then I think we get a greater clarity. around. the reason that we were put on this. earth. I mean, I think the biggest. blessing any of us could have is to wake. up one day and think, I know why I was. put onto this earth. I know what I need. to be doing. And it's not always going. to be necessarily the thing that just. gives you personal satisfaction, you. know, it could be your calling could be. something quite different to that.

Terminal lucidity is super super. interesting as a I mean, I did my PhD in. neuroscience because I thought I wanted. to become a neurologist, but then I. became a psychiatrist, which is also. super fascinating in terms of things. like you can hear voices that aren't. there and you know, your mood can change. like, you know, not in your control. But in terminal lucidity is when people. who. either have had dementia for a. significant period of time or have had a. stroke and so parts of their brain are. physically altered or damaged chemically.

or physically and they have lost. the personality and level of. consciousness that their closest friends. and family knew in them. can suddenly become completely lucid. So, we've got stories of, you know, parents who no longer recognize their. children and their grandchildren. just suddenly saying one day oh Jay, darling, come here. I want to like, you. know, give you a motherly message. And. it's usually a sign that they will pass. away within 1 to 24 hours. But there's no physical explanation.

for how they could. know the names and react in a completely. maternal or paternal way towards an. adult child that they didn't recognize. for several years. So, that starts to make you think, are. we actually that connected to our body? And if we're not, what does that mean? Um and I don't have all the answers, but. yeah. No, please, sorry. Carry on. Well, I was. just I was just going to say, it makes. you think that. what happens in this life and in this. physical world and on this material.

plane. can't be the be-all and end-all of. everything and if it's not, what does. that mean about how I want to live? And. to me that brings me back to I want to. live a life that's guided by love. And. you know, I don't mean romantic love by. that necessarily, although that could be. included. If I've got a dilemma, if I've. got a difficult decision to make, if I'm. feeling like I'm in a really challenging. situation, then I always go back to to. love and gratitude. And I've now. included uh observing beauty as part of.

that, too, because what they're all. doing is moving us into the oxytocin. state, which is our highest state, and really the only state from which we. can live our best life. So, it's really. about doing everything that you can to. move yourself away from stress and. towards love. And overly listening to that chatter. around you. is pretty much going to do the opposite. So, it it is a little bit about. liberating ourselves from that, I think. At least for moments. When you talked. about spending time in nature, you.

talked about chanting, you talked about. humming, you talked about. the art class, the the kind of more. analog tasks as well. What do those. tasks have in common from what's. happening. scientifically inside of us? Like. biologically, like chemically, what's. happening. that's similar across those or is it. different? Well, you know, I have this. thing about if I don't know the exact. answer, I always take it back to. evolution. Sure. So, what we know about our. ancestors was that they had scarce. resources. And it was all about survival and.

reproduction. So, in terms of like what. was our life's purpose then? It was. literally live long enough to have. children and pass on your genes and then. it didn't matter if you get got eaten by. a saber-tooth tiger. Um. But, those same ancestors who naturally. in their life to survive walked barefoot. in nature, sat around a fire at night, looked at the stars in the sky at night, also chose. with those scarce resources to make cave.

paintings, to dance around that fire, to. sing, um to hum, to drum, to chant, and we don't know why. But, the only. conclusion that we can draw. is that there was a benefit to survive a. survival benefit. And what we know now is And again, some. of these activities are luxuries. I. completely get that. But, when we make. or behold any of those activities, that. we in the brain becomes more. hyperconnected. We get the benefit of novel experiences.

We open up more connections in the. creative parts of our brain, which. actually allow us to solve complex. problems better, to think more flexibly, to um. override our biases and regulate our. emotions better, all of which are. obviously, you know, survival. advantages. Um because if you think about just, you. know, on the very most basic level, the. implication of that in a relationship, you know, if if we were in a. relationship and I was much more able to.

regulate my emotions, to solve problems. with you, to like overcome any biases. that I might have about the way that. you're behaving, it's obviously the. relationship's going to survive better. And one of the pieces of research I've. really looked into from the. neuroaesthetics is called shared trait. vulnerability. And it's about the fact that people with. psychopathologies, like schizophrenia, also tend to be more creative than the. um general population. So, if you think about some of the. symptoms of of psychotic illnesses,

it includes things like magical. thinking, altered states of. consciousness, you know, perhaps access to I want to. put this really carefully, you know, sort of. data and signs that we are choosing to. ignore in the real world cuz our brain. is filtering. out information to help us survive, you. know, as people who have um don't have a. mental health issue. So, one hypothesis could be that you could. use creativity and all of those things.

are creative things to open up. more of your consciousness. And if you have a high IQ and you're. mentally resilient, but you can also do. that, I just think it's so exciting to think. about what we could do with our minds. that again is probably stuff that we. knew that we've forgotten, but in our. lifetimes or in the modern world, we. haven't been practicing. And that is. also one of the. hypotheses that comes out of the. research on near-death experiences, which is that our brains are actually.

filtering down our minds rather than the. other way around. Filtering down our. minds meaning? So, that our our consciousness is. capable of a lot more than what our. brain allows us to do to survive in this. material world. And would the brain ever. allow for more? Or is it just so against. survival that we couldn't experience it. here? Well, the easiest way for me to. like demonstrate that to you is it it. allows for more when you take. psychedelic or plant medication. Right. Right. And we know that a lot of.

like Kriya breathwork, for example, allows some altered states of. consciousness and so does other. breathwork. Time and nature alone can, you know, allow some altered states of. consciousness or expansion of our. consciousness. So, so clearly it can. And I don't know if. we're afraid of it or, you know, there's. some kind of survival or societal. mechanism that prevents it. I mean, if. you think about the tides in interest in. psychedelics and how it's been shut down. every time, it does make you wonder about the. reasons for that. It's so interesting to.

be in one of these rising tides at the. moment and see what actually happens. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I feel. like as as you referred to earlier, meditation has been such a powerful. form of reaching altered states of. consciousness and breathwork you. referred to, nature for sure. I mean, I've I've had the fortune of spending. some time in some special special. places, both in India and just this year. I got to go to Bhutan, as well. Oh, wow. And, you know, it was. definitely went to places that I felt.

they were it almost felt like they were. places in the material world that were. already in different realms. Like, it. almost felt that way. Does that make sense? Like, places I. went in South India, I definitely felt. that because some of these temples are. like thousands and thousands of years. old. And they were built with that I. mean, they're built with that kind of. like Vedic mathematics and just the way. they the architecture and everything. kind of how we marvel at the pyramids. Or the Mayan ruins. Yeah, the Mayan ruins. It's that kind of.

those those I saw those temples in South. India, which. I guess have less publicity and PR, but. when I went there, I was like, "Wow, this is just, you know, there's this one. this one. kind of hallway. And it's almost I forget the exact name. they've given it, but it almost feels. like a portal. Wow. just pillars and pillars and pillars for. so long. Yeah. But it almost is seen as this. transitionary portal. And so, you kind. of find these places in the world that. have otherworldly.

other realm aspects that you almost feel. like an automatic sense of connection to. a part of you that's beyond. And having had those experiences, it's it's amazing to me, as well. So. many of my friends who've. taken psychedelics or clients that have. practiced that, no one ever comes back. and believes that this. four-dimensional world is all we have. That that that that there is more. Yeah. What what's the benefit of that? Or what. what is what do you believe do you.

believe that's the next stage of human. evolution is that spiritual dimension? Or. is is that what we're leaning towards. hinting towards? Is is that how you see. it progressing? I mean, that's the. feeling I you know, when I. thought. that. things were just going to go downhill. for humanity, I kind of quite quickly. thought there's an opportunity for it to. like evolve to another level. And. personally, being a medical doctor and a. scientist, I look at people like Deepak. Chopra, Daniel Siegel, Bruce Lipton, and.

you know, it's they're quite a lot older. than me. I remember thinking, you know, when I was still a doctor that how could. they be saying some of the things that. they're saying? And like, I don't think. I would ever be able to say that in my. career, but I've just said some of the. things that I've just said to you. And. um I just wanted to add that um again, in my research, I completely agree with. what you said about certain places. But. apparently, there's three ways of seeing. like a thinning of the veil, if you. like. You know, let's say we let's just. hypothesize that we believe that there. are spiritual planes or astral planes.

Have you seen that Disney movie, Coco? No, I've not seen Coco. seen it? I thought you were going to say. Soul. I've seen that, but I've not seen. Coco. Coco is about the Mexican Day of the. Dead. Okay. So, that's obviously an example of. a time of year when the veil is thin. But um a lot of people around the world. believe that some of the places that. you've described and Ibiza and Hawaii. are are vortexes where the veil is thin, and you can maybe like access a. different spiritual plane in yourself. or, you know, perhaps even more. tangibly. And then, there are also certain people.

So, you know, obvious examples are the. Dalai Lama. And I know people who've. been touched by him, physically touched. by him, have said that they saw the. interconnectedness of everything, and it. changed the way that they lived their. life. So, I think what you and I I really like. saying here is that there are certain. things, activities that we can indulge. in, that can change the way that you look at. life. Every. And I mentioned dark retreats, which I. don't think a lot of people have heard. of, but obviously silent retreats are a. way of doing that that more people, I. think, you know, have heard of. Yeah,

no, no. And dark retreats, too, like. I think. it's it's interesting that all of it's. trying to get us to just be. Like it all starts with this sense of. just being, but some of these. activities, I think for for a lot of. people they seem so foreign, right? Like. I think dark retreats seem foreign, silent retreats seem foreign. Obviously, there there quite big differences to the. way people live. And even things like. chanting and humming and being in. nature, like those I think coming from a.

Indian background, like chanting is. somewhat far more. accessible or normal or a practice that. you grew up with. Whereas in the in the. Western world, that wouldn't necessarily. have been a practice. What has been the. neurological impact of chanting? I'm. intrigued by that, because that's always. been something I've been fascinated by. Yeah. So, I will tell you that, but. what I do now, which is just much more. accessible to people, is I just listen. to chanting on I I found a YouTube. channel, I just listen to it. I have it. on in the background. I don't. particularly chant myself now, to be. honest. Um.

but if you've got it on in the. background, then it's creating a certain. like vibration and resonance just in. your home, which just literally, you. know, it's nothing magical, it's through. sound waves is having an impact on we. see that sound can have an impact on. water and we're mostly made up of water, so it's having an impact on you. And. what we actually what what actually. happens in your heart and your brain is. something called entrainment. So, particularly in the research shows that. groups of people who are together who. are subjected to either chanting or.

certain pulsations of light that their. heart rates and their brain waves will. synchronize. And this makes them much. more likely to cooperate, to see. themselves as not other. And basically to just be in that. oxytocin state of love and trust more. than Wow, I didn't know about the. science behind that. It's so funny. because. one of my teachers would always tell us, said if you have a conflict with anyone. in the monastery, you should dance and.

chant together. Really? Like that was literally what he would. say. your face when you went like this cuz. you're were "Okay.". he he would always say that and he would. always tell everyone that it's like, "If. you're having a conflict with another. monk or someone in the monastery or. there's something, you should dance and. chant together." And he And we'd always. thought it was like a nice cute thing. Like we didn't You know, you don't. realize just how much You recognize. there's spiritual depth behind it, but. to even hear the idea that it's actually. creating trust on a chemical level is is. pretty far out because. clearly creating coherence in terms of.

you wouldn't chant out of tune with each. other, would you? One of you will kind of fall in, you. know, or you'll both do it. Same with. the dancing. But once you're doing that. your heart rate and your brain waves. will Mhm. change accordingly. And that simple act of doing it even. subconsciously. Mhm. is going to bleed into when you're. trying to consciously operate. Yeah. That I mean, that's fascinating. from a romantic perspective, too, I. guess. And And from a from a. relationship perspective of. how often are couples spending time. together in nature or how how often are.

couples spending time in the same. frequency and vibration together? Is. there any research around that that. suggests the same for romantic love? So, those things I think are kind of a given. the two examples that you've just you've. just stated. But um we know that Now, most of this research is done in voles. Little They're quite cute. They're. rodents, but they're quite cute. But it. it's also been done in humans. Which is. for example, that if you see your. partner in distress your cortisol levels. will go up. Your heart rate will go up.

You will start sweating. Um. You will then seek to move towards your. partner and soothe them with physical. touch. We know that people who are in. hospital in pain. that when their partner physically. touches them, that their heart rate. decreases, their blood pressure. decreases, and. they are in less pain. If the couple are. you know, a really like well-bonded. couple. There's lots of bits of research. that. So, it's definitely both the fact.

that if you, you know, do things. together like time in nature or chanting. or or dancing, that that will make you. more coherent. It's also the fact that. when you. see or experience lack of coherence. with, you know, and especially. the partner who's seeing the other one. kind of out of coherence, that there is. a move to go towards them and soothe. them. And it's And it involves physical. touch, which, like I said, can reduce. pain in your partner. You You kind of. talked about these two ideas of And even. what we're talking about now is this.

kind of spectrum that exists between. stress and love. And you were talking. about how like, you know, you're you're. trying to move towards love in your. life. And you said not simply romantic. love, just love as a force and as an. energy source. And you were saying that, you know, stress, of course, sits at the polar. opposite of that. And so much of our. decisions today are based on stress, naturally, whether it's stress to pay. the bills, stress to survive, stress to. take care of the people we love, stress. because someone we love has been. diagnosed with the disease. Like,

there's so much stress, and it's almost. like, how could you ever infuse love. with that? What have you seen. when Have Is that even possible to. measure what it's been like to infuse. stressful situations with love? So, I. just want to go back and just like. clarify something. So, the stress. hormone cortisol correlates with five. emotions, which we will experience if. we're under stress. So, that's fear, anger, disgust, shame, and sadness. And. then the bonding hormone oxytocin.

correlates with love, trust, joy, and. excitement. And in between those two is. um surprise, which correlates with. noradrenaline, and it can flip people. from one side to the other quite. quickly. So, like, you know, sort of You. know when like someone jumps out at you. from behind the door? That But the the. more positive side of that is that if. you know you ask me a really surprising. question and it made me think really. differently, then it could make me stop. being nervous and think, oh wow, this is. really interesting. I'm curious. Let's. you know, go down this road. So, the.

thing about those two. ends of the spectrum is that they're. like a seesaw. So, they can't coexist at. the same time. So, the more you have. trained your brain. to go into the. oxytocin mode, the less of the time it. can possibly be in the stress mode. Physical exercise is something that we. see if we use heart rate variability. technology, that after you've done. physical exercise, there's a time period. where that you're actually in a non. phase, but you you cannot be stressed.

So, there are things that we can do. Um I know you're talking about really. difficult situations for people. You know, how do you infuse that with. love? But. I wonder if that's bringing us back. almost full circle to manifestation and. visualization, which is that. with all the forms of loss that I see. people going through, loss of sense of. self, can't trust yourself, breakdown of relationships at home, at. work, in community, and even loss through death. If we. believe some of the things that you and.

I have just spoken about, like from. near-death experiences and terminal. lucidity, then. I think that's the reason that it's. important to expand your consciousness. and have more spiritual beliefs because. there is a choice there too to make a. gift out of a really bad situation. I can completely see why people's lives. get ruined by. a loss and they feel regretful and. bitter for the rest of their life, but I. also think. that it's possible. if you.

can find some kind of. legacy or learning or gift. to make something good come out of the. bad thing. Mhm. Yeah, no, that reminds. me of. uh Edith Eger's book, The Gift. Mhm. And the work of. Victor Frankl. Yeah. And that idea of that future. motion of how does. how does what I do now, how will that. make me feel in the future? And who will I be able to help and serve. in the future even if I can't help.

anyone now. And And I think there's another point. from both of them and also Nelson. Mandela, which is about the mental. prison that we create. Mhm. And, you know, I know that Victor. Frankl spoke about that a lot, but I. really love the quote from Mandela where. he says, "I knew when I walked away from. prison that I if I didn't let go of my. bitterness, I would be in prison for the. rest of my life." And. I find all of those things really. inspiring and I've looked at the lot of. the science that we've discussed today. to help myself understand how you can.

possibly override that when there are so. many difficult things in life and to try. to bring that information to people. And. really, and I'm not just saying this, that that's why I was so thrilled when. you invited me to come on to your. podcast cuz I think. you know, you've just got such an. amazing platform and I and I'm just so. grateful to you for letting me like, you. know, share some of my findings. so touched. No, that the feeling is very. mutual. I was so excited to have a. platform that I could have this. conversation with you and that you. agreed to it and that I'm I I want to.

make sure out of just my respect for. your work that you feel you're being. able to touch on the things that you. really deeply believe in and talk about. I'm talking about some things I actually. don't normally really talk about that. much. That's a good thing. That was brilliant. Okay, good. Yeah, good. No, I What is it. I guess that you're most fascinated by. right now? Like something that you're. personally obsessed with. I imagine that. when you're in discovery mode, just as. when someone's healing, not healed. So, in in a scientist sense, it's like when. you're when you're learning, not. teaching. Like what what is that for you.

right now? Well, I think it it's broadly. covered by a lot of the topics that. we've mentioned, but I think the the. tension that I'm interested in is how. far you take these things because. as you well know, you could take these. things so far that you just like run off. into the wilderness and become a monk. and then and just disengage from real. life, right? Yeah. Um I think what I'm really curious about. is how far do you take these things. until you get to a point where you have. some level of understanding or.

potentially enlightenment. where you can live this life to the. fullest. That I'm obsessed with at the moment. Yeah. And and and I am too when I'm. listening to you, I always think about how does something. stop being a fad and a trend and the. moment and how does it become a real. shift in lifestyle and a commitment to. whatever practice it is that you Yeah. feel is valuable because I find that. as humans we're always looking for the.

next thing to entertain us and you can. also have a lot of spiritual. entertainment. Mhm. and you can also have a lot of. purposeful entertainment and it just. becomes another thing that you kind of. use in order to escape as opposed to no, this is what I'm dedicating my life to. and this is what I'm. committing my life to if that makes. sense. Yeah. I think that's just another way of. saying what I was trying to say. Yeah, yeah, no, I was just trying to I. was just trying to dissect and. understand that because. yeah, I think for me it's been really. interesting having learned.

a very ancient philosophy and then. grappling with trying to make it make. sense in the real life that I live now. has been such a. difficult, beautiful, graceful, awkward. path to walk. Mhm. and I don't think I figured it out. I'm still walking that path and trying. to make sense of it. And. but I know that underlying and you. talked about this, you you alluded to. this, this idea of having a purpose for. life based on service.

being a place that we're all trying to. get to. I think that's been the only guiding. light. Like that's that's been the only. thing that is the the light at the end. of the tunnel that makes sense. Yeah. And and I find that when I'm I'm. I'm deeply want to help people find. theirs. Mhm. And I find that. what distracts us, me included, from. that. is past desires, future opportunities, and ultimately, I'd say the biggest one,

which is what I want to talk about now, is. this societal noise. that keeps us bound. Mhm. And that could. be news cycles, it could be. entertainment conversations, it could be. uh like we talked about before, the. expectations of work and life and people. around us. And so like you're so swept. up in all of that. Mhm. And naturally, most of the people around. us, including us, are skewed towards. negativity bias, confirmation bias.

We're we're stuck. And so to override. and going back to where we started, to. override that. kind of primitive self to say, "No, I'm. going to find the answer. I'm going to. push." is so rare, if not impossible. Mhm. That how does someone kind of let go of. those shackles? And going back to your. prison point, how do you how do you get. out the prison? Because. the biggest. I can't remember who said this, but. there's this idea of like. it's it's a vague concept, but I think.

maybe it's been said in a movie or. something more recently, the idea that. the best prisons are the ones where you. can't see the handcuffs. Right? This idea that you you don't even. know you're trapped. And you're right? Again, so much there, Jay. Yes. Sorry, we're unpacking like we're. I'm just downloading onto you because. I'm like, "You're super smart, Tara." So. I'm like downloading onto you and like. figure it out for me. That's that's kind. of where this how how our relationship's. working right now. It works for me, so. Well, I think something I just picked up.

from you that's I think is really, really inspiring for me and I'm sure for. many others is. where you've talked about that beautiful. but difficult journey. I think if you. were sitting here saying, "I've figured. it out and now I want to help others.". I don't think I would have had the same. feeling towards you at all. And it just. made me think cuz I feel like I'm kind. of. interested in a lot of things at the. moment and going down some rabbit holes. and. don't necessarily know like, you know, where it's going to end up that maybe. that's the beautiful thing. Maybe.

that's better than me coming here and. saying, "Let me tell you everything I. know about neuroscience." You know, so. yeah, I don't know where I'm going with. that but I'm I know I'm going to think. about that overnight cuz I'm very. reflective. But that really touched me. actually to to. think that there isn't some golden. nugget that you've got to come up with. at the end. It's actually, you know, what you delve into and are curious. about and where you go and how easy or. difficult it is. I think that's actually. like what the thing is for people. So, now if only I could remember any of the.

other things that you said. No, no, I'm glad you talked about that. and I and I want to touch on that too. Like I I do feel like I there was a. point in my life where I believed I was. teaching what I was learning. Mhm. And. then I had to live what I'd learned and. then it all changed. Like it just. completely changed. And even now that that's why I'm in that. dance because. you you don't know and the the situation. is giving you as we said earlier each. impediment is giving you a new. invitation to learn, live, and react,

and respond, and figure it out again. Yeah. And then that happens again and. again and again. And so. I think it's like, you know, that phrase. healer heal thyself. Mhm. I think that. I've never understood that phrase in the. way that I have until what you said what. you just said, which is that. you kind of create like an elixir that. you can share with others if you. actually do that. If you keep just. trying to impart not what you think you. know, I don't think that has. I'm going to say I'm not sure it has.

like much effect at all, but I think if. you. can impart a feeling of what you went. through, I think that has much more power. Wow. Um, and I'm going to move on quite. swiftly cuz I just remembered another. thing I wanted to say. So, you were. talking about the noise around us, but. also earlier we were talking about all. these ancient practices, a lot of which. come from our culture and maybe don't. come from other people's cultures. I'll. tell you the one thing I do that expands. my consciousness to most, that is the. easiest thing that anyone can do from.

any culture. Do you want to guess what it is? No, go. for it. I have no idea. Digital detox. Mhm. So, I don't watch the news anyway, but obviously I I'm aware of the most. important things that are going on in. the world because. I've got people around me that make sure. I stay informed and that does not mean I. make other people watch the news. It's. just. my family will tell me if I need to like. look into something. But when I do. digital detoxes, which I usually do if I. take two, three, four weeks off over. like Christmas and New Year, that is the biggest change for me in.

terms of my mental space, my perception of time, how creative I. become. At that time I may also be. probably spending a lot of time in. nature and um. kind of, you know, doing more of the. kinds of exercise that I love to do like. swimming in the sea and stuff like that, but. that one thing alone. makes a noticeable difference for me. And it does take some time, you know, doing a weekend is great, like please do. that if you can't do anything else, but. if you can give it some more time, I. notice towards the end I just become.

like super creative. It's so true. I I. can relate to it completely. I think. that's probably one of my favorite. habits, too, and it's it's funny because. everyone's like, "No, Jay, I just saw. you post yesterday." I'm like, "No, we've got to the point where we've built. the systems where we can be online and. offline at the same time and. and I. couldn't agree with you more. I'm my. best self creatively, even productively, if I'm if I'm not. glued to doom scrolling or whatever else. it may be. And. I think it comes back down to.

that's what I meant by the noise and. that is the that is the answer. That's a. that's a great answer because I do think. that you just have to switch the noise. off. There isn't a way to operate in the. noise and hope that you won't be. affected by it. It's almost like you. walk into a restaurant, you will walk. out smelling like the food in that. restaurant. Like you can't go in there, eat and enjoy it and walk out. And and I. used to often think I I could do that. Like I used to think you could engage. with an energy and not be affected by. it. And that's not true. Like no one's. powerful enough to do that. And and you.

will you will kind of absorb that. energy. And I do find that we're just. losing. spaces of high frequency and vibration. that people can go to to have that the. other way. So there's lots of places you. could go to and we all probably know. what they are. We're like I don't like. going there cuz my energy gets drained. I don't like going there because I don't. feel my best. I think we're losing. places in society that have the opposite. effect. Like where does someone go to. and you're saying nature is is.

definitely one of them. And that one's free obviously to people. And that one's free as well and. accessible and it's it's it's become. harder. I I read this article few years. ago and it was talking about how what we. value as a society has changed by the. tallest building in the town. And so back in the day the tallest. building in the town would be the. church. So you could see the cross from. anywhere and that would be the center. point of community. And then that changed to the government. building, the capital building. You'd. see that building, the state building.

became the tallest building. And today. if you looked at any city center it'd be. the the commerce, it'd be the business, it'd be you know, the tallest building. would be a bank. That's so cool. Yeah, and it was just this idea of how. society shows what's important and. what's powerful too. I'd I'd add that as. well that it's also what we see deem as. powerful. And I wanted I wanted to get. your take on what is it your perspective. on on God and and the source in that. sense? Like what have you discovered or. seen from your research in that space? I. mean that's a very difficult question to.

answer. I think You don't have to if you. don't want to. No, it's not that I don't want to. I. mean it's difficult for me because I. have to put my scientist head on when if. I'm going to answer that question, which. is. that. clearly God brings a lot of comfort to a. lot of people. And. probably you could argue that it can't. be disproven that God exists, but with. the science that we have at our. fingertips at the moment, it can't be. proven. So, I have nothing against. people, you know, having that as their. primary like source of comfort and.

guidance in life, but. I can't give you any evidence that such. a thing exists. Even even with the um. experiences that people have had under. psychedelics or things like that. I've. I've heard or met so many people who. have had like God interactions or. God-like interactions that and things. I'm sure you have too. Yeah, that's what. that's what I was trying to get at from. from the research point of view. But you're saying that that's still not. you wouldn't count as proof in the. scientific sense. No, I wouldn't count it as proof. And I. would say that the person who described.

that in the biggest detail to me, who's. someone that I really trust, who's a. positive psychologist, said. I had what I can only describe as a. God-like experience. I don't think. anyone can really say more than that. The people with the near-death. experiences often talk about something. similar as well. And there are some. common themes like a tunnel of white. light, you know, a being that's like. more full of love than anything you've. ever experienced. It does tend to hold archetypes. depending on what religious or cultural. background you come from.

Um not always, but mostly. So, yeah, again, I'm cur- you know, I'm. curious, but I'm always going to be that. person that is very happy to go down a. rabbit hole, but will also say that this. is the end of what we know, like. currently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. And that's. totally that's totally interesting and. fair, and it's yeah, it's just been. something I've been fascinated by from a. scientific point of view because it's. it's um. yeah, trying to understand the. as we've talked about today, the.

otherworldly or other realm is is. something that's beyond us. Like we. don't we don't even have like you said, the brain doesn't even allow us to go. there. That's what we think. Yeah. Um but I I think if we. even believe that hypothesis, there must. be more that we can do to try to go. there. Yes. Yes. And and I will say that. science does say that a sort of a. healthy moderate amount of religiosity. or belief in God is is beneficial to our. mental health, and none or. fundamentalism is actually you know, negative for our mental health. Mhm.

We've talked about so much today. I like. we've really gone there. And and it was. more than I thought, too. I've like. avoided I've avoided every bullet point. my team sent me and thought that I would. Oh, I love that. because it's been so. much more fun just diving into your. amazing mind and research and just. getting getting an inking. Is there. anything that we haven't talked about. that you really want to touch on? I. don't think Maybe that's on your heart. and mind. I'm like just making sure, but. to sit with someone and really. pick their brain and someone who can. speak about so many different things in.

such a broad range of topics is so rare. I'm so grateful to you for that because. I love how much how curious you are. I. love how much you're willing to push the. envelope. I love how. challenging you are of both sides of the. idea, whether it's spirituality or. science, and uh we we end every On. Purpose episode with a final five. So, I'd love to ask you these five. questions. Some of them are things we. ask everyone, and some of them will be. geared towards you. So, Dr. Tara Swart, these are your final. five. The first question is uh what is.

the best advice you've ever heard or. received? Well, there's a few. You can. say all of them. Okay. So, the one is. particularly to do with writing because. the first time I had to write up my PhD. and then every time I've written a book. since then, which I'm actually doing at the moment, I struggle. So, somebody said to me, "Just write something.". And I think that's quite an important. metaphor for life. Like, you just have. to start. You have to put one foot. forward, you know? And then it's much. easier than looking at a blank page. Um and then the other one, I think, which I didn't really understand at the.

time, but is kind of where I am now, is. is follow your heart. What what do you. understand about it differently now? I. think at the time I was probably in my. like late 20s or early 30s and I thought. you can't live life like that. You've. got to do the right thing with your. career and you know, that I sort of. worried about what my parents would. think and um but now I just I believe. that if you do that, you can't go wrong. I love that. Uh question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever. heard or received? Um. I'm not going to say it's the worst.

advice, but I'm I'm going to say that. the concept around it is perhaps flawed. in a way that again I understand. differently now, which is that when I was at school high. school, my English teacher said to me, "You're. so good at drama that you should read. English Oxford and go to Rada and you. could become an actress." Now, in those. days, there were no like Indian actors. or actresses in like the Western world. really. And so my father said, "Over my. dead body and you will go to medical. school." I've obviously had a very. privileged education. I'm very pleased. to be where I am now, but I just wonder.

what could have happened if I'd actually. been supported in that because. cuz I'm not doing medicine now and I'm. way more successful now in something. that, you know, my parents couldn't have. imagined. So, I just think this clipping. of the wings of of children, I think, is. is bad advice. Hm. Question number. three, is it possible to manifest love? 100%. I did. How? I did it with my. vision board. It walk us through it. So, I had been divorced for quite a few. years and I'd basically become a.

workaholic. and I'd had a lot of success with vision. boards for my work. And then I remember. just slightly thinking, I think I'm. using my work to run away from love. again. And then I just pushed that thought. aside. Then the following year, I. thought, okay, I'm going to put this. tiny little heart on my vision board, but it's all going to be about business. and travel and. so nothing changed. And then I really thought to myself, okay, Tara, if you believe in this. manifestation, if you really really. believe in it, you've got to prove it to. yourself that you can manifest love.

So I put this like huge engagement ring. on the top left corner of my vision. board. I never usually put phrases on. it, but I. was looking through magazines and I saw. this phrase that said, joy comes out of. the blue. It was actually a Tiffany. advert. I just loved it, so I put it like on the. top of my board and then various other. things. So I did that for 20 for 2015. and actually nothing had happened by the. end of 2015, but February 2016, I met. the person who was to become my husband. on a plane. So that's out of the blue in. the sky. And we got engaged that year.

and then married the following year. Wow. I love that. That's a great story. That's beautiful. I'm sure that will give people a lot of. hope. What are people doing wrong. when manifesting love? Where are people. going wrong? I think it's a lot to do. with this noise around us that you. talked about. So I think a lot of it is. at a certain stage of life where you. just think that's what you should be. doing. And personally, I will go with a theme. that you sort of alluded to as well, which is that I think people are going. for a lot of external characteristics. when they actually should be going for.

like values and. you know, what the human being is. actually like and what the relationship. would be like rather than. the material things that surround it. Mhm. Absolutely. And question number. five, fifth and final question we ask. this to everyone who's ever been on the. show. If you could create one law that. everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Love everyone. Just. give out so much love. Yeah. It's so so. needed. Yeah. So needed, especially now. Well, Dr. Tara Swart, thank you so much for. coming on On Purpose.

The book is called The Source, The. Secrets of the Universe, The Science of. the Brain. Please, if you don't have a. copy already, go and grab one. And, of. course, if you don't follow Dr. Tara on. social media, please go and subscribe. and follow on all channels. I can't wait to share this. I want to. hear what resonated with you, what. connected with you. Please tag us both, sharing insights, your favorite clips, things you're practicing, your action. boards. I want to see it all. And Dr. Tara Swart, thank you so much for your. time and energy again. It was truly a. joy, so thank you. It was amazing for.

me, too. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, everyone. If you loved that. conversation, go and check out my. episode with the world's leading. therapist, Lori Gottlieb, where she. answers the biggest questions that. people ask in therapy when it comes to. love, relationships, heartbreak, and. dating. If you're trying to figure out. that space right now, you won't want to. miss this conversation. If it's a. romantic relationship, hold hands. It's. really hard to argue. It actually calms. your nervous systems. Just hold hands as.

you're having the conversation. It's so. lovely.