IHIP News: Former Pastor EXPOSES the DARK Truth About MAGA Christianity and Trump!

All right, we're in for a real treat. today, I, HipNews. I am joined by. writer, activist, and former pastor. named John Pavlovitz. He's an author of. eight books and confronts the ridiculous. hypocrisy of MAGA evangelicals in his. best-selling Substack, The Beautiful. Mess. John, welcome. >> Thank you so much. So good to be with. you. >> Yes. Okay, so why did you leave the. church? >> Well, I had been a pastor for about 17. years and started to see the church.

change, my particular church, but the. larger church as Obama was elected, going through his terms, and then in the. 2016 presidential campaign specifically, I started to watch Trump ascend in this. process and I started to realize if I'm. going to be a spiritual leader of any. kind, I need to speak explicitly into. what's happening because Christians were. softening their convictions. They were. suddenly, you know, moving the. goalposts, which they've done for 10. years now, and I started writing more. explicitly, but I could nudge my.

congregation because I'd been there a. while, had an equity of trust, but I got. to a new church and I would say after 5. months I heard God calling me to leave. that church and it came in the form of. my pastor's voice saying, "You're. fired.". And my words on equality and gender and. sexuality and race were uncomfortable. for them. So I found myself outside of. the system. >> So would you say that your inspiration. is more. based on Jesus Christ and what he says.

than Old Testament? >> For sure. I think what uh Republicans. have done, what MAGA has done, it's. astounding. They've essentially created. a Jesus-less Christianity. >> They totally [laughter] have. >> And so it's really convenient when when. you can do that. And I started to. realize all the things I grew up. believing and all the things I was. taught I was supposed to believe in as a. spiritual leader were absent from this. movement. And you you to see, you know, 81% of Christians putting in with this. man who was antithetical to everything.

Jesus stood for. And so, that's always. been. it's lifting up those words and. challenging Magas. >> Why do you think that is? Why do you. think they were so um gullible and. susceptible. to this? >> Well, I think there's an authoritarian, you know, feeling that runs through all. of Christianity. They want an authority. figure. They want a strong leader to. tell them what to think. But, there's. also a shorthand religion that most. Christians have. They really haven't. read the Bible. They're Bible believing, but not Bible reading. So, it's really.

easy to throw around a few buzzwords and. a couple of scripture passages, and you. can convince them that's enough. That's. all they really need. And when Trump uh. spoke at Liberty University when the. campaign was going on in 2016, I said, "Well, it's over now because he's. legitimized himself in the eyes of. Christians because that's all they. really needed.". >> And so, this evangelical Christians I. grew up around. And I didn't grow up. with religion. And I found them to be. some of the meanest. people. The most judgmental, elitist,

racist, moral degenerates, truly. Like, I always. knew with my friends that were on my. cheerleading squad or that I went to. school with, the more overtly religious. their parents were, the more up. they were. And it was just true every. single time. And I looked to a lot of a. lot of people say, "Well, they're not. real Christians.". But, is that a mistake to say they're. not real Christians? Because in the. Bible itself, there's a lot of cruelty.

I mean, God himself commits genocide. >> Right. >> in the flood. And um uh I believe. there's a passage where even Jesus talks. about, you know, his authority figure. And it seems to me like. they create what you said about the. authoritarianism through line. Authoritarian parenting primes you for. authoritarian religion which primes you. for an authoritarian leader. What do you make of this crisis that. Christianity is going through and this.

idea that some people say, "Well, they're not real Christians. We're the. real Christians." Because I kind of make. that akin to when people say, "You're. not a real American." And it's like, "Well, actually I am. You just disagree. with me." So, how do you sort through all of all of. that? >> Yeah, I can remember being online around. the 2016 election and talking to a a. queer woman of color and I'm trying to. convince her to stay in the faith that. she was losing and I said, "This isn't. Christianity." And she said, "Actually, this is the Christianity that I've grown. up experiencing." She said, "You're the.

outlier. Your heresy is why I love you. But for me, it's fear is the engine on. which that whole system runs. And that. fear needs an encroaching enemy and an. adversary and a threat or it doesn't. work. And so, people have been conditioned to find. danger everywhere. And that danger is. always in a marginalized vulnerable. group of people. And so, that makes them. perpetually hate hateful toward the. world sadly. >> Yeah, and then do you think how much do. you think like the marriage uh the 1980s.

megachurch boom before Trump ever came. And this fusion of capitalism with. Christianity. Like a lot of the. megachurches in Oklahoma, they have like. gift shops, coffee shops. They're like a. mall, a rock band and all of this stuff. Did the churches start worshipping. money? That also primed them for this worship. of capitalism where Jesus speaks. implicitly about the accumulation of.

wealth. He opposes the accumulation of. wealth. >> Yeah, well, there are no megachurches in. the Bible and that's for a reason. because [laughter]. authentic Christian community should be. about relationships between people and. the early church was about. interdependence and people making sure. that their neighbor had enough. And so, what the megachurch did was say, "We're. going to give you a consumerist version. of Christianity that allows you to feel. morally superior to everyone else, and. you don't have to do anything to alter. your life in any way, your spending. habits, or your voting habits.". >> Well, and don't they also there's also.

this implied um. uh trickle-down. economics, if you will, that if you give. to the church, and you tithe no matter. what, and you pray, then then you you're. God is going to reward you financially. It's the prosperity gospel. That's. There's kind of a racket involved in. that, like a lottery-style pyramid. scheme. >> Yeah, it is, and it's antithetical to. everything in the scriptures, because. most of the you know, Jesus was an. itinerant street preacher. There was.

there was a sharing of resources, and. that was a necessity because they. weren't rich. And it's just when you. have America and Christianity molded. together the way the Republican Party. has done so brilliantly, you're only. going to get opulence, power, and. discrimination, sadly. >> Do Do you think the majority of white. evangelical Christianity's Christians. know that Jesus wasn't white? >> Well, they do a good job of denying it, because I think evangelicalism white. evangelicalism is sort of built on this.

fraudulent premise that God was a white. cisgender heterosexual man who was born. in America, raised Christian, and votes. Republican. [laughter]. And they And I think if they can try and. believe that, then they can allow. discrimination against vulnerable. oppressed minority communities without. feeling like they're losing their faith. So, they really have a Jesus that's made. in their image. >> And I think something that disturbs me. is when you especially when you talk. about evangelical Christians, they. didn't just start being moral.

degenerates. They used their faith to. justify slavery. And in fact, in the. Bible, there are instructions about how. to treat your slave. And when I think. about the black experience in America, and the way black people were enslaved. and then treated and still continue to. be treated. I think that is where a lot. of the answers as to why we're in a. fascist state exist. And. slave masters weaponized their faith. against black people to make them more.

obedient. >> Yeah, and what you see is the religious. right really grew out of this idea that. hey, you know what guys, we're trying to. use this segregation thing, but it's. actually not playing well any longer. Open racism isn't as popular as we were. hoping. So that's when they sort of. pivoted to abortion and homosexuality, right? So it was trying to find the most. acceptable version of discrimination. that they could perpetuate with their. people and have them take a stand on. that. So that's kind of how we ended up.

here. >> Do you still go to church? >> I go to churches when I speak, but it's. it's not part of my normal daily. pattern, but I also have this odd. virtual congregation that I get to be a. part of all the time. >> And is it a lot of people that feel. um orphaned? Spiritually orphaned? >> Yeah, and I think there's a lot of. reasons for that. You know, we can even. look at the Democratic Party. For years, they didn't really want to speak the. language of faith. So a lot of moderate. believers and progressive believers who.

have a strong faith inclination really. haven't found a home. And so I get to. speak to a lot of people who are. humanist, atheist, agnostic, former. Christians, and we just get to talk. about things like empathy, which is. really the root of all good life. systems, right? And so that's where we. hang out. >> And the Christian right has latched on. to exactly what you just said, empathy. being a problem. And then there's this. Christian Republican influencer and she. wrote a book called toxic empathy.

And I just I cannot it's so. unbelievable, but they have the right has a Jesus. problem. Do they not? >> Yeah, because when you look at Jesus. teachings where it's loving your. neighbor, caring for the poor, you know, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, welcoming the stranger. Those things do. not exist in evangelical mega. Christianity. And so to remove the. empathy from Christianity, there is. nothing left of the teachings of Jesus,

right? So that's they just have this. hollow empty husk of a religion. >> And they just want the hellfire. damnation part. >> Yeah, and which is why they never. mention or they'll talk about faith in. general or they'll talk about God. God's. very nebulous because God is sort of an. avatar they can just superimpose all. their hatred and discrimination on. And. so they never really talk about Jesus, so they just kind of hold them off to. the side. They talk about faith, God, and and the Bible, which again, they're. Bible believing but not Bible reading, at least not the New Testament.

>> Right. Okay, so Pete Hegseth is one. aside from the Speaker of the House. Pete Hegseth is one of the most overtly. religious members of the Trump regime. And he has been married three times and. has a bunch of different kids, multiple. affairs. I don't really give a. about that cuz I'm not I'm you know, whatever, live your life. It's hard. being an adult, relationships are hard. But whatever problem with is hypocrisy. And Pete Hegseth has this crazy pastor. A nut job pastor. And here is a video.

of Pete Hegseth's pastor talking about. James Tallarico who has made his faith a. central part of his. senatorial campaign in Texas. Play the. clip. >> that God kills him. Ultimately, that means killing his heart. and raising him up to new life in. Christ. That's the first thing. >> We we want him crucified. with Christ. >> That's exactly right. >> to be I think Saul of Tarsus Tallarico. of Tarsus. >> Yes, yes. >> That's what I want. He who who who would.

say I was holding the garments while. they stoned Stephen and now I'm the yeah. the. that's what we want. >> Yes, we want death and new life. >> Is this a different pastor? Remember he. had that old pastor, is this a younger. one in the same group? The family pastor. >> then there's Doug Wilson who oversees. the whole system that he's. >> of pastors to be that up. [laughter]. >> right. Takes a village. Well, you know, I think you see there. the irony is that the namesake of their. faith was supposedly crucified for.

teaching about loving your neighbor and. caring for the poor. So when they say. something like that, they're actually. exposing themselves because they are. hostile to the very teachings that. they're supposed to believe in, which is. why they hate the Pope. It's why they. hate you know James Talarico or Bishop. Buddy or you know Reverend Barber. >> Yeah, so they're really going after. Talarico. First it was oh my god, he. follows girls on OnlyFans. And then it. was like, oh he's trans. And Steven. Miller made like a six-figure AI video.

trying to transvestigate Talarico. And. then now they're saying, well he dated. these other women but the the through. line here with that is that he could. remind people in Texas, which is a very. very religious state. I was born there. Of the central character of their. religion. The Christ part of it. And he speaks. about that. And another person in the in. the South that did this very well and I. had him on my podcast is Governor Andy. Beshear. of Kentucky. And he won two terms as.

governor. And he they ran a lot of. anti-trans. um. garbage against him. And he said, my. faith instructs me. not to bully these kids. You might not. understand it, but I am not going to. participate in bullying these kids. It's. hard enough to be a kid. as is. >> [sighs]. >> How much how broken do you think having. been in in this form of church, how. broken do you think the um.

culture is? In white evangelical Christians that. when they hear reminders from Matt. Talarico or from you or from the. governor of Kentucky, do you think their impulse is to. cave to their worst impulses? That's. what I think Trumpism at the root of it. is. He gives you a permission structure. to listen to the devil and not the. angel. >> Yeah. >> And then they just keep doing it over. and over and over again. >> Right. >> You know, so what do you think that. culture is? Do you think they're. savable?

>> I I think some people ask me are people. unreachable and I say some people are. unreachable right now, but there are. people who have their awakening slowly. but surely. But the thing is they're in. that place where their identity has been. shaped around the people that they hate. And their their their whole identity has. been built around fear and so it's hard. to pull someone out of there. No one is. at their best when they're terrified. And Republican politicians and. you know, theologians, they keep people. in a perpetual state of fear. And so I.

think there is a self-preservation at. play here. There's I have if I admit. this, I have to not only cop to the fact. that I have placed all my identity in. this traitorous serial rapist, but then. there's also a grieving and a change. that has to come. >> How much do you think. as a non-believer, me, and I was never indoctrinated in it. When I hear the story about I can't. remember the characters, but it's a dad. and a son and God's like, you need to.

kill your son. >> Yes, Abraham and Isaac. >> Abraham and Isaac. And the guy's like, no and he's like, you got to show me how. much you love me and you've got to kill. your kid. And so he's like, okay, I'll. do it. And then God's like, just. kidding. When I first heard that, I was in like. junior high. My friends told me that. And I remember thinking, oh my god, do do my friends think their. parents will kill them? >> Yeah. >> It was so It was such a weird. thing for me. Never been in dark It's. such a cruel thing. And And it struck me. and I felt empathy and sadness for my.

friend who was trying to convert me. because they're so neurotic about trying. to convert everybody. And I remember thinking, "God, she must. really think that her parents would do. that to her.". How much. is cooked into the system, this cruelty? In into the teachings of Christianity, not the Jesus part, but there's a lot of. in the Bible that's mean. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of these sects focus on that. And um how much of that is cooked in.

because what I see in MAGA Christians. specifically. is they. enjoy recreational cruelty. >> Yeah. >> They enjoy it. When you hear Stephen. Miller or Pete Hegseth or some of these. MAGA pastors, you can tell they enjoy. that They get off on it. >> So. is there something cooked into that. where they that that they preach. cruelty, this weird kind of conditional. worship and love? >> Yeah. >> And then it has manifested itself in.

this, going deeper. >> Well, when you're when you believe that. you are righteous and your cause is. just, there is nothing that you won't do. to be victorious. And so you see all. this imagery of soldiers in God's army. and they play into this because again, they want to overcome something. They. want to overcome an evil world and so. that is baked into the system, this. depravity, this idea that everyone's. sinful, that everyone needs to be saved. And it's just an arrogant posture.

>> Yeah. >> And and that I think I've just tried to. push against because for me, the Bible. was always this historical document of a. people in a certain place in time in the. history of the planet, just trying to. figure out life. I don't think it was, you know, dictated divinely and dropped. out of the sky leather bound. >> Right. Right. >> And so when you when you talk to. Christians who are MAGA, they don't even. understand that the text at all to say, I need to look at this more objectively. I can't just look at this literally. because I'm going to do a lot of harm if.

I do that. >> Do you think it's. abusive emotionally and spiritual. spiritually to tell kids. that they're born bad? >> Oh, I mean, I spend most of my time and. I have for a couple decades now undoing. the damage that that causes because. when, you know, you and you believe that. you're depraved and that God loves you. but is always out to squash you, right? If you do the wrong thing. >> Yeah. >> That's just such an existential weight. to put on someone and that is again what.

MAGA does so well is make sure that you. always feel less human. And I think Jesus for me was always. about humanizing the person in front of. him and so that's where these two things. clash. >> I love the Jesus guy. Like the Jesus. part of it. >> It sounds more like a Bernie Sanders or. a Zoran, you know, not overtly. religious, not a super much better like. person obviously than all of us around. here. Um it's interesting how um.

the evangelical Christians. as bad as I thought they were before. Trump and because I lived around them, I. they've they've gotten worse. >> Yes. >> It's within a cyst from like Fox News. and do you think after Trump dies this. cult is going to be fissured? I mean, for sure. Cuz he's the authoritarian. like connective tissue. >> As people start to have kind of an.

existential freak out, I feel like. there's going to be a need for like. deprogramming especially in the Bible. Belt of people that have been severely. um abused by their parents, not. intentionally. Their parents earnestly. thought, "Well, this is the way I was. raised, and this is the way I'm going to. be raised, or I'm going to go to hell.". You You know, like it's a very serious. thing in their mind. Do you think. there's going to be a need for the next. therapy trend to be kind of. deconstruction?

>> I think certainly that there's there's. two things at play. There's the. deconstruction from the damage of toxic. religion, but then there's also. the reckoning of I have been a part of. this really inhumane movement for a. decade. And you know, I look at. something like what's happening with the. Epstein files, right? You can look and. you can see here are these men who've. never shut up for decades that I'm a. leader, I'm a protector of women and of. children, and then you have the largest. pedophile ring in history, and they're. silent and invisible because they can't.

face the fact that they have placed. their identity into this horrible human. being. And that's going to take a lot of. processing for them if they're going to. be honest enough to deal with it. >> Do you think the, all of the child sex abuse scandals in. churches that everybody knows about, the. Nazarene, Southern Baptist, Catholics, Pentecostals, and on and on and on. It. seems like every time you hear of a. church, or every time you hear of one of. those. Christian summer camps, Jesus camps,

there's always some sort of child sex. abuse going on there. Do you think that. has primed this particular portion of. the electorate to kind of accept that. Trump is in this because other people. they admire or look up to, their pastor. or their uncle or somebody themselves. has been. up to this, and their parents didn't. make that big of a deal up, and the. pastor snot slung cry one day, and then. it's forgiveness, no accountability, and. everybody just moves on like it didn't. happen. >> I I think that's more about, uh, a.

culture where you don't question. authority, and you can you will believe. the authority over your own eyes. So, you can look at those Epstein files and. you can tell yourself a story. You can. do some sort of theological gymnastics. that says, "No, this is a man being used. by God, so I can discount those things.". But, they're not able to intellectualize. that. They really can't think about it. in that way. It's just what it does to. them internally because they're so. incapable of critical thinking. >> Yeah, and I read once that.

for people that were really deeply. indoctrinated, critical thinking is. painful. >> Oh. >> It's really a painful process for them. to go up against because they have been. taught this whole binary. >> world. >> Right, wrong, black, white, good, bad. And I remember growing up this friend of. mine, she was really, really religious, like Pentecostal tongue-talking, like. >> Right. >> really, really, really big-time Bible. thumper. And she was always talking. about spiritual warfare and the.

mark of the beast. She was like, you. know, there antichrist is coming and. everybody's going to get this mark. And. I'd go home to my mother, who's an. atheist. She's like, "Oh, that's. ridiculous. Jennifer, please. That poor. girl, she's just getting abused by her. church and her parents. You know, >> Right. >> how much of. all of that fear. inside. evangelical Christianity, do you think. is linked to this MAGA movement? >> Well, I think that's the only reason.

that you can convince someone that a. human being like Donald Trump is. remotely someone you want to be. associated with because even most. Republicans in, you know, in Congress or. people running in the Republican Party. during 2016, they would have told you, "This man is abhorrent. This man is. against everything we stand for." But, slowly, when they started to read the. room and realize he's he's ascending, well, then we're going to start to make. little concessions and our theology is. going to soften. And so, you do that.

enough times, there's nothing left. there. >> So last question, um. the United States is one of the most. religious first world countries. We're. far more religious than our um. allies in Europe and around the world. And you mentioned earlier that Democrats. erred in not talking to people about. faith. Personally, do you think. religion being at the center of so much.

of America has also been a accelerant to. the fascist coup that we're in the. throws of now? >> Yeah, sadly, there's no question because. everyone starts off thinking, well, I. have this belief and it may be, you. know, compassionate in its genesis, but. then as you get more power or your. church gets larger or the thing gets. systematized, then there's a danger in. that you have to hold on to that. And so. this accruing of power is exactly what's. happening. Religion has been the the the. tool to do that. And so we have to get.

back to something that is more um in a. horizontal relationship between people. where we're caring for our neighbors. It's not about leadership. Christianity. was never meant to be a top-down thing. It was the people of the street. It was. an authentic community of interdependent. people. >> Okay, and one more question. I want to. do one more. It's Pride Month. And for. my listeners, you need to follow uh. John, what is your Instagram? It's so. good. >> Uh it's John Pavlovitz. >> Okay, yeah, Kylie will put that on the. Chiron. He's so it's one of my favorite.

Instagram follows. Um and you really do. a good. a beautiful job actually advocating for. the LGBTQ+ community in directly. directly calling out the hypocrisy. in the Christian faith that wishes to. demean, bully, and ostracize these. people. Can you speak to my listeners? We have a huge LGBTQ+ audience during. this Pride Month cuz some for so many of. them, their first bullies were their. parents and their churches.

>> Yeah. I I would just say to everyone out. there who has been told, especially by. organized religion, that you're unloved, that you're sinful, you are beautiful, and you do not need to be saved or. changed or renovated. You can accept who. you are as you are, and that is a. beautiful thing. And if you choose to. believe that God made you, then God made. you purposefully. And I I hope that you. feel free to be exactly who you are. And. you know that there are people out there. like myself who will not stand by and. let let you be erased or discriminated.

against. >> That is so beautiful. I love that. Thank. you so so much for coming on. It's such. a pleasure to meet you. And keep staying. after him on Instagram. I love it so. much. >> Yes, thank you. >> Go follow John. Go buy his books. Go. follow his Substack, The Beautiful Mess. And uh follow him on social media. He's. fantastic. Thank you so much. >> Thanks, Jen. >> [music].