IHIP News: Fascism Expert SOUNDS ALARM as Trump SECRETLY Builds His HIDING PLACE While He COLLAPSES!

All right, joining me today on I Hip. News is my friend and absolute expert in. exactly what is happening right now. Her. name is Ruth Ben-Ghiat and she is the. best-selling author of Strongmen and she. has an amazing amazing Substack called. Lucid. Ruth, welcome to I Hip News. Welcome back. >> Thank you. So pleased to be here with. you. >> You're one of our audience's favorites. I think you and I went to dinner a. couple of weeks ago and I was telling. you I think there's a desire. among the public right now as we see.

this regime attack science, attack. facts, attack knowledge. There's a. desire from the electorate to learn. And. so thank you so much for making yourself. available. Right now, Trump's approval. rating is hitting around 32%. What happens to an autocrat when they. become this unpopular? And what happens. to all of those surrounding him when. they are, you know, it looks like. rearranging the deck chairs on the. Titanic. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, so you've you've hit on So, one of.

the things is um. they they never take responsibility for. their actions. And they have by this time many. autocrats have bought into this. propaganda that they are infallible. Um that they can do no wrong. And so. they will never say they're sorry or. admit failure or blame. So, what's. better? You throw other people under the. bus. So, >> [clears throat]. >> most autocrats are constantly um. reshuffling their governments. It's.

really crazy and and one of the reasons. I wrote Strongmen was to like um. to to demystify this idea that autocrats. are efficient. So, like Mussolini made. the trains run on time. Well, in reality. every 4 years he totally reshuffled his. cabinet, right? So, that happens and. we're seeing that because the people. they put in are incompetent often to. start with. >> And that's by design. >> It's by design. >> And why would why would somebody who. wants to rule over, a you know, in an.

autocratic dictatorial way, why would. they want incompetent people? What's the. psychology behind that? >> Because they're threatened of people who. are too competent, and they don't want. people who have independent sources of. power, independent networks, and so they. did this from the very start where Tulsi. Gabbard was put in there in a director. of national intelligence with very few. contacts in the intelligence world. So that she would be dependent on him or. whoever is his trusted person. The same.

with Hegseth. Or or the people have to. be flawed. So they So the leader has. something over him or her. And so so you have these people to begin. with who are not who are set up to fail, and then when the the autocrat. inevitably creates crises, they don't. know how to handle it. Look at Kash. Patel. >> [laughter]. >> And so and so that's one thing. The. other thing that autocrats do if they. start sinking in the polls and they get.

they get. they get really worried that something's. going to happen to them electorally or. otherwise is they they go to war. They either deepen conflicts that. they're already involved in instead of. you know, retreating, and Netanyahu has. done this, or they start a war. And and then they get into worse. trouble, and this is called autocratic. backfire. And so. February 1st, I published an op-ed in. the New York Times on autocratic. backfire, and I had Mussolini, Putin,

and Trump. And I said that I felt like I. get these instincts that Trump was. getting into the zone where he was going. to do something to distract from all the. messes he was creating at home, and I. said we should, you know, we should be. prepared for some kind of military. engagement. So there's patterns in the way that. these people behave and think and and. the tragedies that they create for the. nations they're supposed to be.

governing. And I've noticed that Trump, you know, he kind of has loose lips. He can't ever. quite keep anything. close to the chest because he likes to. grandstand. He likes to boast. And he. would say stuff and you can always get. little breadcrumbs from what he says. He. would say, "Well, you know, BB doesn't have an election cuz he's at. war. How great is that?" You don't have. to have an election. He said the same. about Zelensky. You know, they don't. have to have an elections. And he he he. like streamlines basically what his.

nefarious plans are, but this. situation with the war, there's been. rumors that not rumors, I mean pretty. substantiated, the State Department said. that we went to war at the request of. Israel. And. then you have Putin who appears to have. something, you know, I don't know, Trump. adores him or something compromat, who. knows. >> Very deep tie. >> A very deep tie, but Putin is helping. Iran. And as I watch the whole thing,

Ruth, I'm like, "Okay. You have this guy, Donald Trump, who. doesn't really seem to care that much. about America. >> Mhm. >> And he's helping these other forces. And it just seems to me like his number. one goal is self-preservation. When we used to speak about the. psychology behind autocrats and that. being their North Star in all of their. policy. >> It's pretty incredible and it and it. starts actually with way before they get.

into office because regular politicians, if you have if you're under. investigation. or you have like problems of whatever. sort, you don't want to run for office. because journalists will start poking. around. But if you're an autocrat type and you. want to be further an autocrat. If you. are under investigation, you feel. compelled to run for office because the. whole point is to get into power and. then use the government take over. government to fix your problems. So.

here's a list is partial of the people. who were under investigation when they. ran for office. Netanyahu several times. Berlusconi three times. Trump three times. Um Putin was under investigation and. they got into office and look what. happened and immediately like in. Netanyahu tried to do this judicial. reform and they always go for the. judiciary because they need to get rid. of their problems. It could be financial. problems, could be legal problems. So it.

starts there. With actually how they even get into the. >> attack on the rule of law. >> Yeah. Yeah, because they are they have. legal problems or they're corrupt. And. so they have to go against corruption. So that's that's the beginning of it. So recently over the weekend there was. the White House Correspondents Dinner. Of course we have mental health crisis, gun crisis in the United States. And instead of coming out and speaking. about this immediately immediately he.

goes to the right White House. press room. and says. I need this is why I need that ballroom. And then you've got Lindsey Graham who's. jumped on board. All of the MAGA. influencers it's almost like they had a. coordinated. thing where this is why this man needs. this ballroom and it seems that he is. laser focused on the ballroom, the arch and remodeling the White House. What's the psychology behind this? Do. you think he's planning on camping out.

in there? Is this something that's. unique to this type of ruler? It's so. bizarre. It's bizarre but it's predictable. So so. that's the next stage of the. self-preservation. So, they get into. power and then they start doing things. that cause problems at home. Look at. Orban, he impoverished the nation while. he became a billionaire and his cronies. And so, discontent builds, hardship, you know, falls upon the. nation. And so, the more they create.

problems because remember they never. backtrack because. the thing to understand is that. autocrats are not in office for the the. the same reasons as other politicians. They don't care about public welfare. They don't care if the population has. hardship. They care about. self-preservation. So, inevitably they get more paranoid. the longer they're in power because more. people hate them, the election might go. badly, people do, you know, crazy things. to try and get rid of them as we've. seen.

So, they have safe spaces. And so, these. are people who are driven by fear. Um and you really can't you know, overestimate the the fact of fear and. that's why they puff themselves up with. personality cults. I am omnipotent. I am. infallible. And it's they're telling. themselves this. So, at a recent um. there was a recent Trump speech and I. don't remember the content, but I wrote. on social media that he was. self-soothing.

It was like he was telling himself, as. you say he has no filter, that he was great, that everything was. going to plan, even though that's not at. all the case. And it could have been. domestic, it could have been about the. economy or Iran, who knows. But, it was. about him propping himself up. And then. they create these inner sanctums, the. cabinet officials who are sycophants. And so, we've seen the ritual of when. when the officials meet, it's not to. give him objective feedback that he. desperately needs. And they all do this,

Putin and they all have their inner. sanctums. Mussolini did it, Hitler. And and so, they're reinforcing his um. sense that he knows what he's doing and. they, you know, genuflect to him. Um. they praise him. So, instead of making him more secure, this makes him more insecure. And so. they they end up with these like Putin. had his palaces, they have bunkers. Gaddafi had a huge compound underneath. which he had sex slaves, you know, they. have these spaces where they feel safe.

So, the ballroom, I've been watching. this for a. develop uh for a long time. And the. Washington Post just did like a they. analyzed all his speeches for the last. months. So, we're at war. Like Americans. are are, you know, American lives are. being lost, right? But the thing he's. talked the most about is the ballroom. Because his ego is is he's projected. like the the ballroom is and the White. House which is his personally, right? He. doesn't see it as the public's home that.

he's occupying temporarily, it's his. So, his ego is fused with the White. House and the ballroom. And and so. underneath the bunker is going to be a. safe space so that when all of the. mistakes he's making come back to haunt. him, he has a place to be. >> Oh my god. >> incredible. >> It's like his baby blanket. >> Yeah, and so Putin had Putin's Palace. And one of the reasons that um Putin. went after Alexei Navalny is that he was. an anti-corruption researcher, but he.

took it upon himself, Navalny, to. research and document Putin's Palace and. he made a film about it that showed the. corruption, showed the gold-plated. toilets. Some of it is actually the same. aesthetic, the gold, the marble. And Putin felt exposed, and so that made. him all the more go after Navalny and. eventually had him killed. That's Putin and that's Russia. >> Right, right. >> This is the United States, but the. psychology, the need to have your safe space which,

um, is somewhere you could go that must. be secret for you, um, and yet you're boasting about it is. is, um, the difference is that Trump. boasts about everything. >> Yeah. >> Putin and others do it in secrecy, a. little more secrecy. Yeah. Trump is telling us everything about it. and he cuz he has no filter. Very. different than Putin who was an. intelligence officer. >> Right. >> like super versed in what not to say.

>> Right. >> He measures each word. He still like. that. >> will damage Trump, his loose lips? >> Yes. Because it alerts people to what he's. doing and it he sometimes he's soft. launching things that are horrible. Like, maybe I should have a third term. >> Right. >> So, so it has a propagandistic function, but ultimately the the corruption, um, the denial, saying everything's going. great, >> Hottest country ever. >> Peace Prize when we're at war, like. because autocrats think that the people.

are stupid. Because they scorn people. You might even, if you're an autocrat, make an AI video of you crapping on. people. >> Right. >> Remember that? >> Right, or post yourself as Jesus Christ. >> Yeah, that shows what he really thinks. of people. And so, it doesn't cross his. mind, apparently, to, um, measure his. words and be a little more circumspect. What it which is what, um, other, uh, I. was going to say smarter, but he's very. smart in his own way. So, other.

autocrats, uh, have not boasted as much. about, um, their ballrooms and their, um, things that are, you know, evidence of. corruption. >> So, you've been watching him closely, um, as a professor, an author, a student. of all of this, and now a teacher of all. of this, an expert in this field. And. you knew when he said, "I could shoot. somebody on Fifth Avenue and my. supporters would still support me." You. knew immediately. So, you've been. watching him since that time to now.

And this Trump 2.0, the observations. that you have because for me as the. layman, it really seems like he feels. emboldened, that he feels like he's 10. ft tall and bulletproof, that he has. he's governing as though he will never. face consequences, and he our Supreme. Court helped him assisted him to feel. that with the immunity. So, what are your observations in this. just over a year into the second term of.

the escalating behaviors. of him? >> Yeah, he feels um he feels invincible. And he has. created a government full of people who. mirror his values. So, autocrats want. you to be your worst self. And often they pick people who are. flawed. So, we talked before that. they're um inexperienced, that you would. never pick those people. Like in a a CEO. wouldn't pick those people. But he needs. to have those people there. And we.

talked about the loyalty part. But he. needs people who are flawed so that he. can further corrupt them. And Trump is. very good at corrupting people. and bringing them down. >> Like Kristi Noem shot her dog and he. thought, "Oh, that's perfect person.". >> perfect for this job. >> Yes. Flawed people. So, Kennedy, think. of all the the cabinet. >> Right. >> Um and and he's also been collecting. information on people since he was a. businessman, like from the '80s. That's. what he does. And his mentors were Roy.

Cohn and Roger Stone. And they. it's it's their version of compromat. >> Okay. >> So, so that that is going on. So, so these are people who have um. been collaborators in his lawlessness. And so, when Hegseth went to Quantico. and all those faces, those stony faces. weathered with experience of all the our. US commanders with so many years of. professionalism. They sat there.

and Hegseth said that we are not going. to abide by these old rules of. engagement. And then Stephen Miller. went to law enforcement and said, "You. know, your hands are untied now.". So, it's a liberation from any kind of. humanitarian or ethical rules. So, I. call this moral deregulation. So, there's economic deregulation which. is going on. So, all companies and. corporations and big capital, they don't. have to, you know, they can relax their.

protections of the workforce, they can. plunder the environment. But moral. deregulation, Trump is like the Pied. Piper of this. Everyone must be their. worst self. so that you don't have you. the. This is what you meant when you said I. could shoot someone. and my followers will love me for it. That that the They could be biblical, they could be ethical, secular. The. injunctions against cheating people,

harming people, killing innocent. fishermen on boats. Whatever it is, they You don't have to. worry about these things anymore. You. can even reward and pardon people who. stormed the capital. um who were violent, who attacked police. officers. There's no bottom. So, that's. moral deregulation. And his partner at. the beginning of this nightmare was Musk. who who thinks similarly. So, we gave. him a place in government and said, "Go. at it. Just wreck everything.".

Because it's all about That's back to. fascism. It's like destruction. And. Mussolini called it creative. destruction. And you can be like that if. you have no morals. You're amoral. So, that's what we're faced with. So, I've been talking about moral collapse. and the need for a re- renewal of. morals. And like we need a democratic. politics that foregrounds values. >> Yes. >> Like simple values that you learn used. to learn in school. >> Right. >> like justice, equality, don't beat other.

people up or there might be a. consequence. >> Yeah. Golden rule. >> What about what do you make of. I understand to an extent Trump. recruited incompetent. immoral people to come work for him. I. get that. That makes sense to me. What. do you make of these. tech oligarchs and other industry titans. that. before maybe you know, they weren't. really controversial, but when this guy.

gets in power and they have all the. money, more money than he has. and you can you know, business people. are like, "Oh, we can ride out four. years. He's a it's his lame duck term.". It's been so shocking to see Tim Cook of. Apple, a gay man, you know, making a. participation trophy in these award. rituals and you can tell Trump enjoys. humiliating them because he said. recently I think it was a a Truth Social. post. He said, "I love having the CEO of.

Apple called to kiss my ass.". He recently said this about Tim Cook who. now I think is going to be outgoing. Is. this something that you see in other. autocracies where the wealthy also more. morally collapse just as much as the. aforementioned person he found that was. already broken, Kristi Noem, and brought. her and broke her even more. Is this a. feature and not a bug? >> It is a feature and it's called the. authoritarian bargain. And all of them do it. All the autocrats.

do it. It means bargains that you make. with elites. Could be media elites, tech elites today, business elites, religious elites. And the bargain is that's like a pact, a. deal, that I will give you a lots of. opportunities to make money. and promote you and not stand in your. way, not persecute you. In return, you. have to be loyal to me. You could. outwardly support me, but you must not. criticize me.

No matter what I say or do, no matter. what happens. And these bargains, they they happened. under Mussolini and under Mobutu. They're just part of how it works. Yeah, Putin for sure. Think about the Russian Orthodox Church, which backs up Putin and backed him up. even more when he went into the into. Ukraine. That's their part of the bargain, right? And we have the Evangelical Church and. Orthodox Jews. No matter what happens, they're there.

So, that's the religious. And and so, this is part of how autocracy works. These these elites that prop up. So, what you want to do if you're trying to. unseat. through elections, you need something. called elite defection. You need elites to wake up and they only. do this sometimes in the old days if. there was like being bombed by the. allies. >> [laughter]. >> or the the economy starts to collapse. Yeah. And then they finally decide to.

come out of their cowardice and venal. you know, posture and they will retract. their support, right? For the state and. for the leader. And and sometimes they can put it to. someone else in power and then you have. what like a palace coup, right? But when. there's a well-developed party system, cuz today autocrats don't kill off all. the other parties and they keep. elections, you want the elites to go. over to the opposition. And that's very.

hard to do, but eventually it can. happen. >> So, J.D. Vance is by all means on paper. somebody in traditional American. politics, if we follow what the lineage. is and how the torches are passed, would. be the heir apparent. >> Mhm. >> and be the Republican nominee. I have. noticed that Trump, in my opinion, is. sending J.D. Vance out to set him up for. failure. And here are some examples of. my observations. He sent him to campaign.

with Viktor Orbán. And of course, Viktor Orbán, you know, uh lost in a in a in a landslide. He. sent him to Pakistan to negotiate this. war that J.D. Vance, at the table, um. and this was leaked from J.D. Vance's. camp to the New York Times that. everybody said, "Yes, yes, yes." except. for Vance. Vance said, "No." cuz Vance. is trying to position himself as, "Oh, no, I'm the anti-war candidate." and. Trump's like, "Off to Pakistan you go.".

Um and then uh the he Now, this is my. favorite, Ruth. He's made him the fraud czar. >> Mhm. >> The most fraudulent president in. American history. And I just can't help. but think he's like got J.D. Vance in a. headlock here saying, "Good luck, buddy.". >> Mhm. >> That he's sabotaging the alleged heir. apparent of his, you know, whole movement. What is your. take on that in watching the way he does.

J.D. Vance? That's part one of the. question. Part two is the Catholic. Church won't bend the knee. And J.D. Vance fancies himself a big Catholic, and I just want to get your opinion on. that. But first, talk about the. succession and then Trump what I think. is sabotaging that. >> Yes, I I agree. Um and um it that is in. line with the autocratic playbook. because. autocrats don't really have successors. with the exception if it's a family. dynasty, like in North Korea.

>> Yeah. >> Or they can have some kind of like the. in Brazil, Bolsonaro is sitting in jail. for having done something similar to. what Trump did. But now his sons, who. are right-wing politicians, are they're. thinking they'll come back. In the. Philippines, you know, you had the. Marcos dictator and now Marcos Jr., Bongbong is there. So that can happen. But otherwise, they don't want they're. terrified of successors. Do you hear. Putin talking about a successor?

>> Never. >> No. And in Turkey, Erdogan, he's. president and he he used to be prime. minister and now he's gotten rid of the. office of prime minister because he. doesn't want anybody close to him. It's. him and the people, right? And so they. do these tricks. They're not really. fooling anyone. Because they can't stand to have any. anyone getting too much power. Now. luckily for Trump, Vance is a a uniquely. unlikable. person with like terrible instincts.

>> Yeah. >> A hypocrite, you know, because he's. evolved you know, we all know that he. what he used to say about Trump. And. that now the thing about Catholicism, he. he doesn't seem to have very good. instincts. Like taking on the Pope, really? >> Right. >> Um and and lecturing the Pope? >> Right. >> And saying also the his words, he. chooses his word he's very smart in in. his in book way. >> Right. >> chooses his words carefully, but issuing. something that to many of us who study. autocracy sounded like a veiled threat. to the Pope. He said, "You should be.

careful. The Pope should be careful in. choosing, you know, something like he. should be careful in choosing his words, what he says.". And that's like kind of how like mafia. bosses talk. >> Yeah. >> He better be careful. He better watch. what he's saying. >> Yeah. >> It's not It's not a good PR strategy, shall we say? >> [laughter]. >> So um so there's all that. But it is. complicated because we all know that why. is Vance there? He's a proxy for Peter. Thiel and. >> the wider tech community. I mean just.

remember that Peter Thiel bankrolled his. Senate race and his businesses, Vance's. private businesses. So they have a long. history. And these tech billionaires are on the. offense right now. You saw that the head. of Palantir who Alex Karp who keeps. appearing in public in some kind of. drugs seemingly drug state. Why? I don't. know. But he issued a manifesto. and Musk has been the Washington Post. reported he has upped the amount of his.

posting on race issues. He's in some. kind of manic seeming manic. thing about posting about race to. indoctrinate people about white. supremacy. So there's something going on. with these people. They're like. panicked. And maybe that's because they. see that their guy is being set up to. fail as you say. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, because I just published my latest. essay on Lucid is about this. techno-fascist and how they seem to I. said they're sharpening their swords.

There's something There's something. going on. Like why release your 22-point. manifesto right now if you're Palantir? >> Said that they wanted to the draft it. was it was so incredibly I agree with. you there is kind of some sort of shared. psychosis going on with them right now. >> And Musk with the Washington Post found. is that in the last months he's posted. 850 times on race. Like lasers are focused say saying. things like great replacement theory. that whites are a dying majority. And.

and he's posted more than in these last. months than in the the in the preceding. two years on the theme of race. So. there's some kind of let's say anxiety. that's an underestimate of what's going. on. Something's going on and I do think. it's linked to. >> I think you're right. >> Vance not doing very well shall we say. in in certainly in public opinion and. being uncertain about what that means. for their whole enterprise. >> Yeah, because they made a huge. investment into him and Trump didn't.

want him, but he he had to win or he was. going to go to prison, Donald Trump, or. and or face major major consequences had. Kamala Harris won. And so. they sent the tech money. That makes. perfect sense because they do seem a lot. crazier. But Go ahead. >> I have one thing. Um and Vance has also. with the Catholicism issue, he's. maneuvering himself into a a space like. in between a rock and a hard place. because. of course he's one of the voices of. white white Christian supremacy.

>> Mhm. >> That's the that's the ideological plank. of this state. >> Mhm. >> And it's now seeped into foreign policy, national security policy. That's what it. is. White Christian hegemony. But and so he converts and he does this. book, but he's attacking the Pope. A and a very love beloved Pope. An activist Pope. >> Did you read where Peter Thiel, it was. leaked, told him that he thought this. Pope was an offshoot of the Antichrist. and to ignore him? That's right. Which. is insane that we have this billionaire.

>> Mhm. >> Peter Thiel, whose side hustle is giving. conferences about the Antichrist. I. mean, this is just If I saw it in a. movie, I would be like, this can't be. real and we're living it. >> That's why um the the Reverend Barber, um he said it's a war on divinity. itself. And I'm interpreting that not only in. the religious sense, but just all that. is good, all that is love, all that is. >> with that. >> is justice in the world. And so the Pope. becomes the target.

Um but this is not So if Vance has to be. if the future of MAGA is embedded with. in bed with um white Christian. nationalism, then Vance's stance is not. helping. It's not helping. >> But what's interesting, and this is just. what I know from living in the Bible. Belt, is white evangelicals, which or. you know, support Trump, I think it's. 90%. They don't like Catholics and don't.

think they're real Christians. So, that. was a really bizarre calculation. um on Vance's part, in my opinion. Like, his political instincts aren't that. great because I know from just growing. up, it'd be like, well, you know, Catholics, they're not real Christians. We're the real Christians. Like, my a. Baptist friend or some friend would say. that in in school. >> Yes, and my and it's also the same. My. mother's from Scotland and they're um. Presbyterian. Um. and there was a a black sheep in the. family and he converted to Catholicism.

and no one spoke to him. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, I mean, it's it's a really. interesting. Okay, so. So, this makes perfect sense. All of. these tech guys that invested heavily. are crashing out. Trump, in my opinion, with evidence, looks like he is making sure any hopes. that J.D. Vance has for being Mr. Maga. reincarnate. That's not going to happen. And here's what everybody has to see. We've gone from the fight, fight, fight. image, you know, a year two year two.

years ago, to this video here, Ruth. And I want you. to watch this as we. Okay, this is him last week in the Oval. And people are talking behind him. I. mean, you can see his lip down. It looks. like a a stroke victim. I mean, he's a. senior citizen. And and I don't mean to, you know, be agist, but this is not the. commanding alpha male. And you'll see. here in a second, he wakes up, kind of. checks in on everything, and then he. dozes right. back. [laughter]. There he is, checking everybody out. And.

then he goes right back to sleep. So, take me and the listener in on this. So, strongman, toxic masculinity, fight, fight, fight. Fast forward, fast forward. We're in a. war. Approval rate rating 32%. That is the current situation. The. cankles, the makeup on the hands hiding. the things. He recently had some sort of. skin rash right here. Psychologically, is he aware? What.

happens to the cult historically? >> Mhm. >> Take us what what you think the imagery. of this means. >> Well, two things stand out. One is that. um you saw the were people behind him. And there was somebody gesticulating and. talking. And they decided to completely ignore. the sleeping. And they just carried on. because that they're in denial they're. not in denial. They know exactly what's. happening, but they can't acknowledge. it. They can't wake him up. They can't. acknowledge that he's not listening to.

them. That almost he's a figurehead just. sleeping there because that would. puncture the cult. Because their job is. to be subservient to him. So, if. something happens, you just carry on. Right? You you just carry on. And it. also reminds me of um. late uh. communism in USSR where there were. series of you know leaders who were not. very healthy. And there was all kinds of criminal. popular criminal. Everybody became a.

criminal analyst like today. His eyes are slightly less open. What. does that mean? Cuz they were all like. some of them were like half dead. >> Yeah. >> And so that's that's. there's that going on. But the the role. of the elite standing behind him is just. to just barrel on and barrel forward and. just ignore the fact what everyone sees. So, it's like. it's like an extreme um. it's an extreme example of how you have.

to lie for the leader. And the better. you lie for the leader, the more your. political career does well. And that's. why we have dozens of people in high. office. This has never happened. Who. previously had on-air. positions at Fox. It's not just Hegseth. Pam Bondi had an. on-air position and she was Attorney. General of Florida. >> Jeanine Pirro. >> There's dozens of them. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. Because they know how to tell. untruths and look good while they do it.

>> Camera-ready liars. >> Yeah, and that's why Hegseth immediately. put a makeup studio in the Pentagon. That was one of his first priorities. because he was a Fox weekend host. So, these people know how to. ignore and just dissemble even if he's. sleeping. The other thing that strikes. me. is [laughter] that Trump woke up. and he looked around and then he just. went back to sleep. >> [laughter]. >> Like, okay, nothing he wasn't alarmed.

This is interesting. >> If you fell asleep in an inappropriate. time, your face would register some kind. of alarm. >> Right. >> And you know the camera's on you. >> Right. >> But he went back to sleep. And I don't know fully what to make of. that. I think that he had he had no. choice but to go back to sleep. Um. because. he didn't do the opposite which most. people would have done and they would. have been embarrassed. >> Right. >> But this is also like he's his own. world. He can even in a in a perverted.

way. it's like a demonstration of his power. He can sleep on camera and he's still. there. Like he doesn't have the inner. conscience to say, "Hey, I shouldn't be. sleeping right now. I need to wake up.". Because then he would be placed in a. position of weakness. He's just going to sleep right on. >> Do those projections based on other. autocracies you've studied, when you. start to see the strongman appear as. frail. and you start to see in real time their.

health failing. Does that produce. fissures in the cult, bickering in the. cabinet, jockeying for Does even though. he looks, you know, asleep, does that. escalate the mania surrounding him? >> [snorts]. >> It does, but it can be. uh in in classic one-party. dictatorships, it can it's a dangerous. time for the leader. Yeah, in Mobutu, who's in my book, um he. was a kleptocrat. He was the biggest. kleptocrat before Gaddafi. And tell us.

what a kleptocrat is. It's when somebody. who officializes stealing from the. state. So, he had mansions, he had his. own Concorde airplane um with its own. runway, and the population was starving. in in the Congo. >> Okay. >> And he he, you know, he was always like. um he did these things with the purging. So, there was a guy I talk about who he. sent to jail, then he made him a. minister, then he sent him to jail. again. It's like a constant chaos.

So, he became, after many, many years of. this, very hated. And he fell ill. And this was the signal of people to. act. So, he left the country to get. treatment. I forgot where he went. Maybe. Switzerland, the places dictators go. And. uh that was it. He was forced into. exile. So, he showed his weakness. So, when they show their weakness, that's. why Putin is very guarded about his. health. Very guarded. And Putin. disappears sometimes.

And no one can know because that shows. people um it it's a it's like a. survivalist mentality, especially in. Russia, where people are falling out of. windows. >> Right. >> Or you go into the hospital and you. never come out. >> So, if that's survivalist, >> Right. >> what is that that I just showed you? What What is that just full display, just I get to do whatever I wanted to. want to do and nobody can stop me. Yeah. Flagrant entitlement?

>> Yeah. Yeah. And it works because the. people behind him and around him and on. Fox News and are like active. gaslighting. Yes. They are choosing to. ignore it and and saying that he is. still the greatest leader in the world. and ignoring completely. Well, Trump told us and it was either. 2015 or 2016. and he said don't believe your eyes and. ears. And so they're just deciding I'm not. going to.

I'm not going to believe that Trump is. sleeping. He's still the great leader. and I'm going to message that. Or they turn this they turn you know any. kind of. adversity into a heroism and like he's a. victim. And so we have to help him. And that. worked for a very long time. >> the maxi pads on their ears at the RNC, yeah. >> Yes, that worked for a very long time. But now he's sleeping and we're at war. and the economy's tanking and American. science and medicine are being are being.

sabotaged. They really are and education and people. are waking up now. And and there's there's fissures in the. party. and I think that all of this is going to. continue. So the sleeping is like a. moment where remember that the elite. bargain thing? It only works if the. people around you keep saying you know. the emperor has no clothes thing? That's when they refuse to repeat the.

lies anymore then it can fall apart. >> So this brings me to my final question. which is the media. And you remember two. and a half years ago Joe Biden was. president and they were brutal on him as. they should be. I'm a believer that if. you're going to run for the United. States of America you have to have thick. skin, you have to be able to put up with. comedians. Like I think Donald Trump is. wholly emotionally unfit for the job to.

be president. He's too thin-skinned and. he likes being a victim too much. But then when you think about the the. way the press. whether, you know, justifiably or not. went after Joe Biden. He chose to run. for president, you're going to have a. lot of shiny lights on you. Any misstep, any nodding off. And then I see the disparity in the way. this is covered. Um. Fox News, if Joe Biden fell asleep like. that in the middle of a war, I don't. know that there's enough emergency rooms. in New York that could resuscitate all.

of them. I mean, they would just. completely go into overdrive. And so. we saw in Hungary. um that Orban you know, moved quickly to. buy media companies. And we see Trump. acolytes um and supporters like Larry. Ellison. He's buying CBS, now he's. buying TikTok, now he's buying CNN, and. on and on and on and on. And there was the 60 Minutes interview. the other night right after the uh.

ordeal at the White House Correspondents. Dinner. So, he could go pitch, you know, laser focus, we've got to get this. ballroom built. There's reporting coming out now that. that interview was 40 minutes long. and they edited down to 12 minutes. And. you remember Trump famously sued CBS for. deceptive editing in the Kamala Harris. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, this girl that I love, she's. excellent online. She It's called. Decoding Fox News.

>> Oh, yes. >> Yeah, she's fabulous. And so, she. provides us all a wonderful service. And she watched the entire unedited. version and talked about how deceptive. the editing was. So, if we don't have a a mainstream. media. >> Mhm. >> that doesn't you know, like this guy is. clearly unfit he's fallen asleep. somebody needs to give him another. cookie and wheel him on down you know to. his nap time or something. It it's troubling to me but then I just. think about what Hungary did. So if.

you'll address that and then leave us. with you're so good Ruth about finding. hope and how much you believe in the in. the spirit of humanity in the spirit of. freedom and so if you'll just leave us. with your thoughts on all of that. >> Mhm. Well Hungary shows um it's really. interesting the more you look into it. because. the way that um Magyar campaigned um. was was designed to get around this trap. that Orban had essentially completed a.

level of media capture as it's called. when you when you have bought out you. know had friends buy or allies buy. So. in the preceding elections in 2018 2022. the opposition candidates and their. messages weren't even heard by people. outside big cities. They they because all of the the TV. stations and radio stations refused to. air them. They didn't give them any. airtime. So Magyar did this thing which I at.

first I was like why is he doing that? For two years he went on this like you. you remember what um. what Mamdani did where he he he walked. the length of Manhattan? Yeah. Magyar. did did this all over Hungary in rural. areas. And he did a million step march and he. went to like hundreds of small towns and. small cities. He went to almost all the. parishes in Hungary. So this is why it. took two years and he presented himself. in person to these people and he held.

rallies even small ones and and he just. had this he's in his 40s so he had huge. amounts of energy to do this. And guess. what? It paid off because there's new. data now that the the about the the. voting and every every village or a town. where he went in a rural area, you could. map on who voted for him and it matched. So he showed up in person to get around. the the media block on him. Now, this is.

a very large country and you can't you. can't do that to that level, but that's. a that's a sense of hope and the other. thing Hungary also and we also were. meeting. People don't like blatant corruption. They also don't like brutality. There had been things going on with. education had been, you know, completely. defunded. There was Did you know that. the Department of Education equivalent. in Hungary was moved to the the Ministry. of the Interior, which is the police? So that education now sat under the ages.

of the police. And so there were like very repressive. things that reminded some people of. communism. So. they had had they didn't want any more. of this, but it was it it's all the more. notable and it shows that even in a. climate of media capture. you can prevail. And in our country we. have also this individualized media. system like you, like creators and. people who are fighting the good fight.

who have huge followings. Yep. Substack, right? I've got an over 200,000 and you. know, there's so many of us. And and and we could coordinate our. messaging more if we wanted to do that, but that's it's strength and diversity. And so that's something that no one can. take away from us. Um and Trump is not likely to shut down. all of our substacks. And so there are. ways that we can get around this. We. shouldn't feel. fatalistic.

and it is dispiriting to see all the big. media companies bought out and Barry. Weiss and all of that. That's just it's. awful, but we are on the right side of. history and no one can take away our. ability to message for the things that. we feel are important and to help. people. To help to by speaking the truth about. what's going on instead of being like. those men be those white men standing. behind Trump deciding to ignore that. he's sleeping while we're at war. Yeah.

>> Yeah, the enabling and of this is really. one of the more fascinating components. of it. I understand a singular crazy. person. We all know crazy people. We all. know narcissists. The enabling and the collaboration with. all of this is still takes my breath. away. Ruth, thank you so much for. joining me today in studio in New York. I really appreciate it and go follow. Ruth on social media Ruth Ben-Ghiat or. go to Substack and our Substack is.

called Lucid. Thank you How lucky are we. viewer that we have an expert, a scholar. in fascism, authoritarianism educating. us today. It's so therapeutic. Knowledge. is therapeutic in the time of fascism. It truly is. >> It's always so great to speak with you. >> Thank you, Ruth. >> [music].