IHIP News: 🚨 Ex-ICE INSIDER EXPOSES Cruel Practices, It's Even WORSE Than You Imagined!

Today I'm joined by CNN analyst and. author of the new book Five Bullets, Elliot Williams. Elliot, how are you. doing today in uh 2.0 Trump's America? >> Uh it's it's a crazy crazy time. You. know, I uh last night was on television. about the firing of um or you know the. Supreme Court hearing around Lisa Cook, the Federal Reserve Board Commissioner. Uh today I was just on that's why for as. viewers may not know this but I.

literally was a couple minutes late to. to meet with you because I was just on. television talking about this Jack Smith. hearing in Congress. This is whiplash in. a whirlwind time certainly in legal news. my world and it's and it's just can't. keep up. Okay, let's start with I noticed that. Brett Kavanaaugh K Kavanaaugh was the. most outspoken about the Lisa Cook thing. and I'm wondering if some of this is a. reaction to how badly he has been. branded in public for what they're. calling the Kavanaaugh stop.

>> and I read that this this branding was. really like he it really personally. bothered him and the Kavanaaugh stop of. course is that a an ICE agent because of. the way you look and those of you that. are listening. Um Elliot has a little. more melanin in his skin than I do that. they could legally stop him. And so what. is your take on Brett Kavanaaugh? >> Oh my goodness. It's uh it you know he. is the great story to come out of the. Supreme Court uh over this generation.

because we live in a world where Brett. Kavanaaugh is regarded as a moderate. voice on the Supreme Court. No, it is. That's how the court has shifted so much. certainly in my lifetime of following. the court and there are circumstances. where Kavanaaugh does buck the party. line somewhat. Now let's be clear it is. an unabashedly conservative Supreme. Court and Brett Kavanaaugh for his. entire career has been uh you know an. unabashed conservative and so this it is. quite fascinating to watch the middle.

what we think of as the middle on the. Supreme Court just just shift before our. eyes. Now with respect to this idea of. stops of citizens and and so on that. that's quite profound. Now obviously we. know and going back to the history of. law enforcement law enforcement does. have really broad authority to stop. people uh for for a host of reasons but. ICE has lost the thread here. um and in. the huge incentives that they've been.

given to carry out their immigration. enforcement mission. My gosh, look at. what's happening around the country. >> Okay. You served inside the Justice. Department. >> Yeah. >> And you're sitting here watching it get. completely dismantled and you're. watching um really smart, competent. people that believe in justice that did. not join the Justice Department to. become rich because they could have. These people are so smart. They could. have gone to work for a top tier law. firm in Manhattan, Los Angeles, London,

wherever. But they believe so much in. the rule of law. And these people are. gone from the Justice Department. They're going one by one. And so how. vulnerable. is the entire Justice Department from. complete collapse as it pertains to the. real rule of law? >> You know, it breaks my heart to say it, Jen. Um, Jennifer, but you know, I don't. know. I I really don't know. And it's. because you know what's what people.

don't understand and I not only worked. at the Justice Department, you know, I. worked at ICE for four and a half years. I I Yeah, I was a senior political. appointee at ICE under Obama, which you. know, talk about a a volatile time. Um. what people don't understand is that. most of these maybe not most of these. folks, but a a. great percentage of these folks are. actually political conservatives. This. idea that that it's this left-wing. deep state what behemoth out to to take. over America and ruin its values is.

simply not true. These are people who. particularly in the national security. context um transcend or traverse. Republican and Democratic. administrations. And that's a good. thing. And I'll be the first to tell you. having worked in all these agencies that. fine policy is going to shift from one. president to another. things were. different under Bush than Obama, then. Bush 41, then Clinton and and in a way. that's good for America. It keeps us. sort of thinking about what's truly. important to us, evolving, working. together, and so on. What we're seeing.

here is not a normal partisan shift. This is not the normal eb and flow. between left and right at the Justice. Department. And this is sort the erosion. of core values of how the organization. ought to admit and I think ought to. exist. And I think to me the worst part. of it is the if folks are following the. the hiring of these US attorneys who. haven't been confirmed by the Senate at. all. You saw it in New Jersey with Alina. Haba, Trump's former lawyer. Again, someone with a personal connection to.

the president. You see it in Eastern. District of Virginia with Lindseay. Halligan. Also unfit for the role, not. put in it by the president of the United. States, not not confirmed by the. Congress. And what supporters of the. president aren't seeing is that this is. actually screwing up. I was going to say. a bad word, but you know, it's still. early in the morning. The world's. up cases that they want to. bring. >> There you go. >> Okay. Is that better? Does the audience. better? Good. Good. No. Um, it No, it. screws up uh it screws up cases that.

that they want to bring because the. person at the top of the office, >> courts are seeing that person as. improperly in the role. And so it it's a. problem not just for partisan reasons. It's literally damaging the very work. that apparently they put their folks in. to do. It's just mind-blowing. >> I want to talk to you about kind of like. the the guard rails that are remaining. And I think this is really interesting. My husband's a criminal defense lawyer. and he says. >> the federal judges are doing their job.

>> holding up the rule of law. like they. are really doing their job and then it. gets kicked to the Supreme Court in the. shadow docket. >> and they are completely in the tank for. Donald Trump and my question is like. psychologically I think about as a. layman a non-awyer person when I think. about a Supreme Court justice I think. like Ivy League educated uber. intellectual. and then now I look at like Alo or. Thomas and I think are they just.

radicalized just like Bubba is in rural. Oklahoma by Fox News. Are they just like. the flags that they're flying up uh the. Alto's wife and are are are these people. are they just so radicalized by the. Heritage Foundation? Like can you lift. the veil on any of that at all? Because. it's fascinating to me from a. psychological standpoint that somebody. that has that much education. is cannot critically think or is just so.

incredibly biased. It's really. interesting. It's, you know, every. president is entitled to put in people. uh that share what he thinks is his uh. philos the judicial vision or what he. wants to put on the court. All sorts of. presidents have done it. You know, you. you you really touch on something. important with the Samuel Alo flags. issue, which is something I've commented. I commented about publicly quite a lot. when it happened. It. it's we're the court's allowed to have. conservatives on it. It's allowed to. have people that have those views. The. moment you fly a flag in front of your.

house, uh, expressing a political view, uh, you. have tainted your ability as a Supreme. Court justice to hear cases on that. issue. And that issue came up. You know, so Simeo had had flown a flag on his. house that some January 6th folks were. seen to have were seen to have flown. And many observers thought, "Wait a. second, that's endorsement of a side.". You know, something I said uh Jennifer.

to your friend Scott Jennings uh on air. when around this issue is imagine two. things. One, I am an Eagle Scout. proudly. Um, if I were a judge and flew. a Boy Scouts of America banner on my. house and the Boy Scouts had a case. before me and they were being sued or. suing somebody, I could not be even if I. were fair in my heart, I could not be. seen as fair by the public based on the. public position I'd taken on how I.

decorated my house. And the Alto thing. was exactly that. So, we've lost some of. this veneer or notion that justices are. or ought to be apolitical. And it it. just seems to have gotten more extreme. in the past years. >> And actually losing that veneer, I had. on last weekend um authoritarian expert, Professor Ruth Benot, the uh bestselling. author of Strongman. And some of that. flagrant behavior like the rules that. apply to everybody else don't apply to. us. and the Supreme Court's.

acquiescence to him is intentional. It's. it's an intentional part of this whole. um autocratic play. You brought up Scott. Jennings and you work, you know, I. appear on CNN sometimes. You appear on. CNN sometimes. How helpful do you think in the media. landscape having somebody and there's a. lot of Scott Jennings because Scott. Jennings is not unique. You have this. breed of men that support Donald Trump. that are submissive first and foremost.

They get on the moral high ground and. said, "We're alphas and we're so tough. and Donald Trump's our leader." Mind. you, Donald Trump wears a full face of. makeup every day. If he changes his mind. in the morning, we're going to go to war. with Greenland and by the evening he's. been dogwalked by NATO. They go, "Oh, brilliant art of the deal." I mean, I've. never seen such a They talk about women. needing to be submissive to men and. their Christian nationalist worldview. The submissive nature of the Scott. Jennings and others towards Donald.

Trump. Do you think that type of. whiplash is helpful in media? Because I. I just I kind of don't like I don't. think his messaging helps us. >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's. uh it's definitely whiplash and all of. media is figuring out who they are and. what their voices are in this world now. on this idea of toughness and versus. submissiveness or whatever else which is. something fascinating uh that I've. thought about quite a bit and quite.

frankly in the in just here stay with me. for a second in the immigration context. too so much of what governs policy. coming out of Washington right now is. about the toughness and the masculinity. and the aggressiveness you know if you. look at ISIS's Twitter feed or Instagram. feed. I I don't know if you do. Um. >> I've seen it. Unfortunately, Namaste. I. I can't imagine you're you're a you're a. loyal follower. But no, it's all about. it's all about how tough and how mean. you can be to people. And I get back to.

this point again and again and again. It's okay for there to be political. differences, but cruelty and meanness is. never okay no matter what the political. party. And by way of example, the thing. in immigration policy that I think is. just of all the things to be to be mad. about removing people from the United. States to countries that they don't that. they're not from and don't live in. No. one, you know, if I wish folks would. stop and think critical, you know, even. Trump adjacent people would just stop. and think about what that actually. means. And we as a nation, the law says.

that we can remove people from the. country if they're not here lawfully. That's been the law for quite some time. But we got to make some effort to get. them back to their own home. Just think. about the intentional saber rattling. cruelty that it is to take someone who's. say from Jamaica or Mexico or whatever. else and put them on the plane to. subsaharan Africa where they don't speak. the language and don't have family ties. or anything like that. That's all about. toughness and fear and not about.

actually solving some of the political. and policy differences that we have in. the country. that of all the ICE things. and I say this as a former ICE person of. all the ICE things that act among well I. don't want to say of all of them because. there's a lot that ought to break your. heart right now but that's really bad. >> and I agree with you that it's okay to. have political differences and those. political differences should be. televised and we should have critical. thinking um conversations about these.

things. I do not see. our my differences with the Scott. Jennings of the world as political. differences. I see them as moral. differences. He wakes up every single. day, submits to the leader as you see. the speaker of the house who wields so. much power, little Moses Mike Johnson. He has so much power and he was followed. by Manu Raju a couple of days ago. blaming Norway for keep preventing.

President Trump from getting a Nobel. Peace Prize award. So I argue this. >> Yeah, >> we're going to have a conversation with. a conservative. >> Let's get on Mitt Romney. Let's have a. conversation with a conservative who. hasn't sold his morals out. >> Let's get on the horn with somebody who. is genuinely a conservative. But Scott. Jennings does not represent a. conservative point of view. Scott. Jennings represents the moral collapse. and the submissive nature of all of. these triple Trumpers. And he gets on.

every day and provides a permission. structure. These are our talking points. And I think it's really damaging because. he doesn't humanize these people, these. little kids that ICE is stopping and. asking for their papers. There's no. humanization on the other side. So for. me, my differences with Jennings, not. political, totally moral, >> cosmic, you know, but where I think it's. even more acute, and you talked about it. uh in the in the leadup there, it's with. Congress. And let me explain. Um and.

let's let's use my personal example as. somebody that worked worked at ICE with. a Democratic and Republican congresses, right? Both times we had tremendous. pressure from Congress over the actions. the agency was taking and doing. Democrats did not like when ICE would go. into workplaces, uh, like a meat packing. plant or whatever, and just start. rounding people up. And, and the policy. very early on in the Obama. administration shifted because of. pressure from Democrats in Congress. Congress said, "We don't like what. you're doing. It's not who we are. It's.

not what we're paying you to do, and you. got to stop that kind of activity.". Right? Great. The the we were Democratic. appointees. Democratic Congress held us. accountable. Congress switched in 2010. when the Republicans came in. It was. much more you're not deporting enough. people. We need to, you know, we need to. and there was a conversation about how. ICE could could could better suit what. the majority in Congress wanted. But in. either context, there was at least an. attempt to either defy the president or.

hold the president and the. administration accountable. That is gone. from this Congress right now. It is just. gone. They have they have overwhelmingly. bent the knee on every issue other than. I'd say Jeffrey Epstein where you did. see some broad bipartisan bucking of the. White House for a short time. It's not, you know, everybody's moved on to. Greenland right now, but at least for. that moment, Congress came together and. held the president accountable on. something as fundamental as ICE or who. we are as a nation, how we enforce our.

borders, that's the kind of thing. Congress ought to be weighing in on. and. those Republicans in Congress have geled. or castrated themselves as a body and. just chosen not to to to really engage. in any meaningful accountability. >> Okay. I'm going to ask you this. question, personal perspective. >> Having worked in ICE and seeing what the. Trump regime has turned ICE into, >> yes, >> do you think ICE needs to be abolished? >> I No, I don't think it should be. abolished. Um because every entity. around the country has some interior.

enforcement mechanism. Denmark, even. countries that we would uh want to. emulate or some in America would want to. emulate. I think ICE needs tremendous. oversight. It needs new leadership from. at the at all levels new guidance and. all of the above. I think you know it it. does not have to be like this. We can. enforce our laws. Um we can enforce our. borders. we can enforce our immigration. policies, but it does not have to be. like this. And and the Trump folks came. in and said, "Well, because we ran on.

this necessarily, this is the way it has. to be. We got to get all these criminals. out of here." Even that fact is a huge. distortion of the truth. Of course, there are people who are unlawfully. present in America who have broken the. law. Of course, there are. That does not. mean that nanny at the Abua at the. bodega is of the same status of somebody. who uh has committed a rape or arson or. a homicide. And there actually aren't. nearly as many of those folks that the. Trump administration wants you to.

believe that there are. And they've used. this national security crime, racially. coded, if not booze shouted racism to to. to drum up support for what they're. doing. It does not have to be like that. we can still enforce our laws and not. have it be like that. So, I don't think. that's scrapping the entire like undoing. the entire agency because what do you. what do you replace it with? And if. someone has a good idea for what to. replace it with, I'm all ears for it. But I think you just start over. Um.

maybe even break the whole Department of. Homeland Security up because it's just. such a behemoth that no one person can. can manage effective manage effectively. You heard me. Um but I don't. >> Do you think it needs that kind of. budget, the increased budget that Trump. Yeah. >> And that's really problematic. >> It is. So, and let me So, and that's a. great question. Um, when we talk about. this idea of um of abolish it has that. budget because what they're talking. about is removing or deporting a million. people a year. That's that's the budget.

they've given them. You don't need to do. that, right? you can still uh have a. robust immigration enforcement policy. without the civil rights enforcement and. and 3,000 people a day and a million. people a day because necessarily when. you have those kinds of numbers with the. kind of personnel that the agency has. right now, you're going to end up with. the civil rights violations and nanny. from the bodega and the guy who's. whether it's whatever. I don't want to. generalize about who immigrants are, but. those are the folks who are getting. rounded up. like let's have an honest.

conversation about the brown folks at. Home Depot who are getting rounded up, right? Who aren't necessarily uh um you. know with with criminal records. And so. it that budget they plus up that budget. to be able to do that which does not. need to happen. And if it's all about. safety and national security and the. folks who are killing our, you know, livestock or people, get them out, right? or just figure out. >> We know it's not about that. We know.

it's about racism. Yeah, we know it is. We know. Stephen Miller has said that he. wants to deport 100 million people. And. interestingly, the data lines up that. that's the amount of people that are not. white. And Steven Miller, we've all seen. Trump pudding boy. His brain is total. mush. We've seen how cooked he is. I. mean, it's just he confusing, you know, Greenland and Iceland. and he's in his. Marie Antuinette era, obsessed with his. ballroom. And this guy is so mentally.

cooked. Steven Miller, they call Mr. Prime Minister. And this man is. diabolical. This man intentionally uses. Nazi language, Nazi propaganda, Nazi. fonts. And he wants this to be a white. country, and America is for Americans. and Americans only. That's what he said, which is what Gobble said about Germany. >> Yeah. And so this is about racism and I. just I don't know you're smarter than me. regarding this because you've been in. government. I haven't. I'm a podcaster.

>> My impulse is to say we need to abolish. ICE. >> But I'm always open to being. evolutionary in my thoughts and I do. believe we have to have, you know, some. sort of border enforcement. I feel like. this agency is so cooked. >> and I feel like the type of people it's. recruited are so broken. This murderer. was a 10-year veteran, a firearms. instructor. >> Three lethal shots. The first two. weren't lethal. An autopsy is coming out. right now. The third was. And.

afterwards, he called her a. >> And this whole group, you know, like my. black friends were like, "Fuck, dang. If. they're killing white women like that in. the street, >> who's we're next?" I mean, that. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. No, it's you. I think the you. know, there's a few things there. I. think Yes. if uh it's just a question of. you know when I'm asked the question do. you think we should abolish ICE the my. response is okay but then what would you. replace it with right and the answer. can't be nothing I think both as a as a.

policy and practical matter but also as. a political matter you know for it's. probably Democrats coming with the. argument you you have to have some. answer as to what's next now there might. be a really smart answer to be had um of. just reframing our whole thinking about. immigration and our immigration. apparatus. Um, so but not unlike the. whole concept of defunding the police, the term means. >> the worst name. >> It's the worst name and and it means. more. >> It's the worst name and it also means. more things than just that one phrase.

said. So right. >> abolish I sit star and then you know. beyond that I wanted to respond to the. Greenland Iceland thing that that you. noted and let's play this game. I hate. playing this game but we're going to. play a game called what if Obama, right? And yes, it just, you know, I it's. >> okay, man. You want to have an. imperialist policy. Okay, that's you. Well, you know, a new president will. come in soon and not have that, right? Um, if Joe Biden or Bar or George or.

George W. Bush had with that frequency. and that consistency not even. mispronounced got the name of the. country wrong of an entity that was. ostensibly. his main focus right now the world would. be go America would be going bonkers the. media would be going bonkers and again. it's just another instance of something. on which Donald Trump really was allowed. to have a free pass on something that. other presidents would have been. eviscerated for and again totally look I.

I'm I'm in public life I speak. I just. wrote the book Five Bullets. I'm out. there a lot. I misspeak all the time. The internet lets me know when I. misspeak and say something wrong all the. time. You Oh my god. You You. might You might You might have haters. I. don't know. I I don't really check the. internet. I don't know. But But needless. to say, we there but for the grace of. God go we. Right. And sometimes, you. know, I said things I shouldn't say and. had to walk them. Okay. Right. I'm. human. Um that's a biggie. Um, and.

that's a biggie from an 80-year-old man. And that's a biggie from an 80-year-old. man whose critics uh were quite. successful in piling on another. 80-year-old man who was president of the. United States a few years ago. So, I. just I was I'm I've been so struck by. the Iceland Greenland flub. >> But all of these things in my opinion. are connected to everything we've spoken. about. So his misspeak and it's so. obvious that he the standards that.

Democratic politicians and presidents. are held to are completely different for. the um these delicate childlike. standards that we have for Republicans. I mean that's abundantly obvious. >> But as a a a commentator, a podcaster, I. criticize both Republicans and. Democrats. Yeah. >> And the and taking it back to Scott. Jennings, and again, he's an example uh. of the one that hits the news the most. of of this group of hivemind submissive.

men towards this um tyranny that Donald. Trump is wanting to impose on the United. States. And that's what he wants more. than anything. He wants it to just be. ruled by him. But all of these things. are connected because if anybody inside. that Death Star, inside this submissive, >> it's fully operational, the death star. >> Yeah. If anybody would say, you know. what, he does seem like pudding brain. He does seem cooked. Then that then that.

starts putting pressure on the Congress. people and the constituents. But when. they provide a permission structure for. this batshit. stuff to go on and on and on, that's. where I think mainstream corporate media. gives an assist. And think about how. hard they were on Obama, that tan suit. Think about how hard they were on um Joe. Biden. You know what? I think that's. healthy. I think if you're going to run. for president, big boy, you got to have.

thick skin and they're going to come. after you. You can't play victim and. have a bunch of sickopants fluffing you. on CNN all the time. You've got to be. ready from your own party, from. everybody, every which um every which. direction. But this guy, boy, >> he's so thin skinned, but nobody inside. his movement except for much to my. surprise, Marjorie Taylor Green. >> I know, man. What was that? Was that on. your finger? >> Criticism. No. And so that's all of. those things are connected. the the.

obsequious nature of corporate news in. enabling liars, people that get on TV. every night and lie and lie to the. American public and say, "Oh, no, he. really meant it was just a bit of ice.". Or maybe he got it wrong, but what's the. big deal? They're lying and gaslighting. the American public and corporate media. is betraying their customer base by. allowing it to happen. >> What I am genuinely curious about, Jennifer, I like and I think about this. all the time. Um, and let's use Scott as.

an example, but but every person in the. Trump ecosystem, and that includes. members of Congress, 2026 election and. 2028 election, um, they have to look to. the future at some point. Yes, all the. saber rattling about Donald Trump being. president forever and three terms and. all that, they have to look to the. future at some point. At some point, there will be some fight over who the. standard bearer of that movement is. And. what are they going to do? like are they. going to continue to sort of follow a.

movement that really is is modeled. around a man a figure head right it's. not uh you know it's I don't think if. you could take Donald Trump out of MAGA. and have this MAGA somebody corrected me. on air for saying that once uh you could. take literally I got a DM it's MAGA um. from. uh I you know I don't think you can. pluck Donald Trump out of MAGA and just. put somebody else in and have the same. movement right you can't it's it's a. it's a charismatic atic figure whether. you like him right it's a cult around if.

you want to call it that around one. person so one does it look like in 2026. and two someone has to run for president. somebody. >> and someone can whether it's JD Vance or. Marco Ruby or whoever else and can. purport to be carrying the mantle of. MAGA right but what's that going to look. like and it's going to like will it be. faction it's going to be worse. >> it's going to be right so like. >> because George W Bush Reagan uh. corporate Democratic policies incubated. this and what MAGA is incubating is.

going to be worse. Look no further than. Nick Fuentes growing popularity in the. Gropers. Look at JD Vance who becomes. more psychopathic by the day. I mean he. is a a man who has a a woman whose. parents were um immigrants from India. He has mixed race children and he echoes. white nationalist talking points. So. what comes after Trump is worse. what. this is incubating is far worse. Yeah. >> But I also think the electorate on is.

getting smarter throughout all of this. I think getting off of the propaganda. from corporate media is making people. smarter. I think the autopsy of how the. did we lose an election to this. that tried to overturn the. government, hang as vice president, is a. convicted felon. For me personally, it. has made me really look into I know I'm. never going to change the Republican. party. I've lived in Oklahoma. These.

people, these crusty old white folks, they're never going to change. I get it. but urban areas and my participation and. buying into a lot of the propaganda from. the Democratic Party, >> which was really um for me the. Democratic Party was a savior in. Oklahoma because it prevented an Obama. presidency, a Kamala presidency meant. that women in my state if they got raped. by their uncle could go have an. abortion. >> Uh you know, this type of pre presidency.

means you're going to be completely. dehumanized. But there is a big. awakening I think that's happening in. the Democratic party where we are. starting to realize that after Citizens. United. >> Mhm. >> Um. it it damaged Republicans of course, but. it damaged a part of the Democratic. party and we lost our way. >> Yeah. >> And I'm really happy to see that Zoron. at the perfect timing showed and whether. you call him a Democratic socialist or. whether he's for really regulated. capitalism is irrelevant. >> Yeah. It showed what the the heart and.

soul of the Democratic party is supposed. to be. >> Yeah. And look, I I repeatedly on air. made the argument about Mayor Mumi as he. was running, saying, you know, everybody, he's actually tapping into a. lot of the arguments that Donald Trump. tapped into, just in different. packaging. A lot of people that's crazy. He's a socialist. He's a this. He's. that. And I'm like, no, there's a ven. diagram, and you don't get that far from. to jump from Zora. Believe me, room of. money to Donald Trump like there are.

corners of folks who are curious about. them. something, you know, um, you know, I know you mentioned my book at the top. of the show, something that comes up and. I interviewed this this guy Bernard gets. the subway vigilante shooter um, in the. book and hearing this man from the. 1980s, this this sort of bigoted white. guy and all all kinds of stuff, but. hearing him talk about his politics, I I. said and I put it in the book, this this. guy is at the intersection of RFK, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, like. his views of populists, of the media, of.

mainstream media, of fat fat cats and uh. everybody scratching their back for some. all political game and it just takes one. smart politician. The first time it was. Donald Trump, it'll just take another. smart politician to figure out what that. special sauce is that brings those folks. together. But no, I think um you know to. your point about what happens to MAGA, just so I don't mispronounce it again, uh all those forces are are I don't know.

if they're going to break up MAGA into. the Nick Fentes wing into the Marco. Rubio foreign policy wing into the into. the economic conservative or social. cons. Who knows, right? Who knows what. it's going to look like? But a lot of it. right now is around Donald Trump the. guy, not totally MAGA the movement. He's. the he's the uh leader of this. authoritarian cult. He's the cult of. personality. And you're going to have fi. their fissures are already happening. Yeah. You have Tucker Carlson, Marjgerie. Taylor Green. But here's what's going to. piss me off the most. If he either drops.

dead or is voted out, one of those two. scenarios. Here's what's going to really. piss me off the most. >> The the total racist, continuing to be. total racist, whatever. We all know what. that is. >> Yeah. It's going to be the Marco Rubios. that that trot out and say, "I was. trying to be uh. >> the voice in the room, the grown out, >> the voice of reason in the room." I know. that those Republicans, the Scott. Jennings of it, that had moral clarity. on January 6 and now is completely.

inside the personality cult. Those are. the ones that are going to piss me off. the most. And um so it's going to be. interesting, but I think the fissures. are already happening because the strong. man is frail. We all see this guy's. cooked and so the the infighting is just. going to escalate but the embrace of the. fuentes of the white nationalism and the. real anti-semitism in the world is not. in college campuses it is in MAGA it is. in the heart of MAGA okay go ahead. >> no I would say the fissures are.

happening and the support was always not. always um has been somewhat soft when. you speak about if one were to look at. Latino men in the and uh um and the Rio. Grand Valley for instance who who. flipped quite dramatically to Trump. If. you look at um black and brown. progressives in New York who went to. Trump or New York or New Jersey, my my. home state um were to go to Trump. That's thin support. It's not, you know,

they they've not created and that's not. a knock on the president, but they just. haven't created a generation of black. conservatives in New York City. It was. an economic populist. No, I'm like, come. on, man. It's an economic populist. message to people that felt in pain and. suffering. Felt that the parties and the. Democratic party was not looking out for. them and didn't care about them, didn't. care about their public safety, didn't. care about uh their economic needs, didn't didn't listen to them even about. immigration at times. Um, and turned to.

what felt like an attractive option. That was a somewhat thin rationale. maybe you know what I mean when I say. thin it was just it's not died in the. wool deeply held beliefs and those folks. for the Democratic party I do believe. are getable certainly in 2020 and as. you're looking you know you saw. governor's races in Virginia and New. Jersey and I just some of that this idea. that this wave of new support for MAGA. or conservatives or Republicans among. died in the world Democrats I I just I I.

don't know if I. >> if I see that yeah. >> I don't buy it totally with you on that. >> yeah I I think there's a lot of anti-. status quo sentiment going back into. Trump. I think some of the some people. get drunk on testosterone and bro. culture for an election cycle. >> Um, which is, you know, a part of us. going from controlled media to now. independent media, which can also be. dangerous and feed some of our worst. impulses. I was going to ask you that. people aren't factoring into the.

electorate. >> Yeah, I was really gonna I really wanted. to ask you that. um along the lines of, you know, people are disillusioned with. mainstream media. We can we can agree. with that full stop. Um but what happens. when and I'm really curious to hear your. views. I know you talk about this a lot. on the air. You know, what happens does. is there a point at which media can get. so factionalized that people are are. calcifying in their views and not. broadening their views and actually. maybe even worse off. Like like what's. the balance there? Yeah, >> I totally think it's a it's a huge.

problem. I think that corporate media is. cooked and year after year after year. you see that just the numbers are down. and that has to do with the way we view. programming is completely different than. the way you and I grew up you know. >> watching the OJ trial or what you know. seeing it Greta Vancestin remember all. that that was so exciting and you had. 24-hour news now it's different and I. think that in that you have a danger. where people um are getting into cert.

certain ecosystems like Joe Rogan uh or. um Nick Fuentes. Um and then I mean on. the left I'm sure there's you know. radicalization. I don't think it's as. bad as the right by any stretch and I. don't want to even. >> pretend that that that that is because. that would be a total false equivalency. But I think there is you know we try in. our IHIP news to start journalism needs. to be the gold standard always and. forever. Journalists work hard. Journalists.

expose injustice. Uh, journalism is a. guard rail and a very important guard. rail and you see it under attack by. Trump sick fans buying up Tik Tok, buying up CBS News, Barry Weiss spiking. stories, Jeff Bezos spiking stories. And. so those of us that have microphones. need to always advocate for journalists. because I'm not a journalist, but I. would not be able to do my job without. journalism because when we get on. >> our to start an episode, I typically. start with something that has been fact.

checked, an article or a story. >> from a journalist. And I I'm hopeful. that, you know, as the media, you know, evolves and I'm going to misstep, but I. always. try to remind my audience of how. important journalism is. And I'm just. I'm a bullshitter. I sit here and talk. about the journalism. Yeah. And and. people feel a sense of community and. there's a relatability to that, but. journalism is should always be the gold. standard. And I would also say, and this.

has been something that journalists, myself included, uh, confront, I and I. try to be honest about, not all. criticism of the president is partisan. Not all criticism or challenging of the. policies or the actions of ICE is. partisan. Right. And I just think some. things, like you said, reach a moral or. rule of law point. When I talk about the. Justice Department, this is not me as,

oh, Elliot worked for a Democratic. administration and is just anti-Trump. No, to the contrary. I came in as a. prosecutor under Bush when I was young, right, when he was president and Alberto. Gonzalez was attorney general and I. shook his hand on his first day. And. that's, you know, I look, I get it. But. when we when when you have these things. that we were talking about earlier, like. putting in US attorneys outside of the. Senate confirmation process who are not. fit for the job and are just former. attorneys of the president carrying his.

water in court and losing their top. staff. They're all resigning. They're. all leaving cases. That's not partisan. That is a rule of law question. It needs. to be covered. Not as we, you know, we. shouldn't be shy just because it's it's. a Republican president who's critical of. the media. We should not be shy in. saying this is this is not a left right. thing. This is a moral question. This is. a rule of law question. This is an. identity of the United States question. And I think you know many struggle with. that and and quite frankly get it just. really wrong in trying hard to think.

well on the one hand but on the other. hand um when covering Trump. >> well they're they're saneashing. Um, if. they covered him the way that they would. cover a dictator from a Muslim nation, the headlines would be very similar. >> Can you imagine? Can you imagine? >> Oh my god. Can you imagine just. Minneapolis? Can you imagine if that. were what's Let's use the on the nose. If in Somalia we heard that the Somali.

government um and and I'm just going to. be use speak in the most neutral terms. possible. an arm or an agent of the. Somali government shot a protester in. their jeep or car. Then the president of. Somalia came out and lauded the action. and then there was unrest in Somalia. And then the president of Somalia and. vice president of Somalia went there um. >> called the victim a terrorist. >> Called the victim a terrorist sent armed. fully fatigued masked military in to.

keep the peace ostensibly. Let's let's. just state what happened, right? Armed, masked, tacked out law enforcement. Somalia, not even Somalia. If in France. we had heard that that was happening, we. would be watching that with oh my god, what what a backw backwater crazy place. Um, and you know, it's it's an important. point you make there, Jennifer. It's a. really important point. This idea of. what if elsewhere we were reading the.

same exact facts. >> The headlines and the chirons would be. damning. >> They would be damning. And so that's the. part where I agree with individual. journalists that fight to uh disinfect. and shine a light on injustices. But a. lot of these institutions, these. corporate news institutions are beholden. to the same corporations that keep Chuck. Schumer and Haweim Jeff from being a. true resistance party. And you know,

Moses, Mike, and all of these others. from being completely the submissive. party to a man with full-blown dementia. And so there's going to be an autopsy. I. think there's an awakening already. happening and an autopsy of all of this. But there there's so much culpability. and there's been so much incubation. of this MAGA movement before he ever. came down the escalator. Living in a red. state around Christian nationals, I was. not surprised by any of this because he.

is a he's a he's a megaurch pastor. He's. a grifter. The makeup, the swirl. I. mean, this guy is just like every. megaurch pastor in uh white. evangelical America. I mean, I know this. guy. He's a total con artist. But, okay, we've gone a long time, Elliot. I could. talk to you for hours. Tell us about. your book, Five Bullets. >> Okay, great. Many people Thank you for. asking. Uh, you know, um um so I've been. talking about it all week and I've got a. copy of it right here. Hold on. Um you.

know, I'll even show it. I you know, many people um will remember the 1984. subway vigilante shooting. Bernard gets. shot and seriously wounded four young. black unarmed teenagers in the subway. Sound familiar? Well, that's America. And so this book really is a tour. through one. New York City was unsafe at. the time, but what did that empower one. individual guy to do? Why did he feel so. empowered to act out? And all of the. forces that made the Bernie get story um.

such national news. why Bernie gets is. named in Billy Joel's We Didn't Start. the Fire because he becomes a bit of a. cultural icon. Let me say, you know, something that's come up that comes up. in in in a lot of I've had it broadcast. and comes up a lot in my book and may. resonate with your people is this idea. of media bias and corporate media and so. on. And I have an entire chapter in this. book, Five Bullets, about Rupert. Murdoch's takeover of the New York Post. in 1976 or 1977, which totally.

turbocharged coverage of crime in New. York City to frighten people, to make. them more scared, to put big headlines, wink nod, there are black folks running. the streets and they're coming for you. And it was it was all, and you can read. it all about this chapter in five. bullets. In this chapter, in five. bullets, it's all about how that one. moment in a media takeover shifted the. country's the the city's coverage of of. of crime. All of the New York City.

tabloids, which you're familiar with, the Daily News and News Day and so on, started doing the same thing. And if you. think about 1985, where there wasn't. CNN, MSNBC, Fox, I've had it podcast, the Scott Jennings show, whatever else. Um, there was three games in town and if. the newspapers were constantly telling. you, "You're scared, you're scared, you're scared, you're scared, you're. scared," people would buy the newspaper, get scared, buy the newspaper again, get. more scared. And it just created this. cycle of fear and resentment of other.

people, of black people, and so on. And. that was a huge moment in in in the. history of news. And as I say in the. book, there's it's no secret that Rupert. Murdoch goes on to found the Fox News. Channel decades later because a lot of. their success has been in frightening. people, right? You're right. You you are. far, you know, you're in a red state. You are far more likely to see images of. people looting CVS than you are to see.

if you were to pan the camera. Okay. Looting, looting, looting. black folks. stealing diapers from CVS or whatever. If you pan the camera to the right in. that city, there's probably a park that. has children playing in it that used to. be a place where crack lords and. organized crime or, you know, ran their. their stuff 20 or 30 years ago. But. you're not seeing that. What you're. seeing is the looting, which is a crime, but that's what going back to that. moment in 1977 media, that's what.

they've chosen to focus on. And it just. makes people angrier. It hardens their. fears. It makes them more bigoted. It. makes them more angry. And it makes. vigilante shootings like the one Bernie. gets engaged in more likely and more. common. So, it's really a look at it's. taking one moment in America and. broadening it to why are we so obsessed. with vigilantes and this guy, this white. guy today. >> I think that sounds fascinating. I'm.

going to get it. I'm going to read it. I. also think it's interesting uh one thing. I've been saying a lot lately um is the. MAGA has everything they want now. They. have the executive branch, they have the. Supreme Court, they have the legislative. branch, they have all of the olgarchs. that have bent the knee to them and. they're still terrified and scared and. feel oppressed and they have ascended to. all of this. And so that's a very. interesting component, I think, to the. fear driven propaganda in right-wing.

media news that makes them feel like. they're never safe even though they have. all the power. >> And you know, the one thing I would add. to that, and I talk about this uh toward. the end of the book, Five Bullets, um. it's it's not it's not just the media, what is the media, right? It's not it's. not just newspapers anymore, but it's. the algorithms now that only feed you. likeminded things. uh that like to your. point actually is radicalizing people. And the example I use in the last. chapter in the conclusion of Five. Bullets is what if Kyle Writtenhouse,

remember him, um from Black Lives Matter. protest in 20 2021, I believe 2020, um. crosses from Illinois to Wisconsin, grabs an AK or you know a a a big gun. and shoots a couple people and kills. some, right? What if Kyle Writtenhouse. didn't have an Instagram feed or Tik Tok. feed or Twitter feed constantly feeding. him images of Kenosha, Wisconsin. burning? What if he wasn't in an echo.

chamber as many people are of, you know, this Black Lives Matter and Antifa are. taking the city down and oh my god, we're going to lose Kenosha. You have to. get there. Right. He might have been he. might have been supportive of or you. know he might have he might have been. anti-BLM or supportive of you know the. cause whatever but I don't know if he. crosses state lines and and and brings a. gun and start shooting people. It's just. that's the algorithm. We are all slaves. to what tech companies are sort of you.

know it makes us hungrier when we see. things that we agree with and sort of. make us matter. And the mattest stuff, the most aggressive stuff is what gets. boosted. And it has occur far more, even. more than any newspaper headline in. Rupert Murdoch's New York Post, or maybe. even more than Fox News. That's the. thing that is driving people bonkers and. going to lead to more violence, I think, over time. >> And I think it's only going to get. worse. Your next book can be How to be a. good person as you navigate your.

algorithm. Um, Elliot Williams, thank. you so much for joining me on IHIP News. I want to collaborate again. >> Oh, this is great. >> Yeah, it was awesome.