Natasha Lyonne | Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Hello everyone. Welcome to another. episode of Good Hang. I am so excited. about our episode today. It is with the. sweet, dreamy, and brilliantly smart. Natasha Leon. Um, we talk about so many. things today. It is a a a symphony of. conversation. We talk about what it was. like to live in New York City as a young. kid. Uh, we talk about um Norah Efron. and how important she was to Natasha. We. talk about making hits together and um.

what it felt like to be part of a show. that meant so much to us and to so many. people. And so it is a really. interesting funny and deep conversation. like it always is with Natasha and to be. um guided as to what I should ask. I. always like to check in with people who. know Natasha well, who have worked with. her, who count her as family. And so I. asked um two of Natasha's closest. friends to join me and give me some. questions to ask. And so joining me. right now via Zoom is Ronan Pharaoh,

journalist, podcast host of the new. podcast, Not a Very Good Murderer and. playwright, actor, screenwriter, and. creative director of the Williamstown. Theater Festival, The Great Jeremy. O'Haris. Ronin Jeremy, hello. This episode is presented by Athleta. Summer is here. It's time to get outside. and get active. And Athleta has just. what women need to move the way they.

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First of all, let me start. Where are. where am I talking to you? Where are. you, Jeremy? In in the world. Oh my god. Do you want I don't want to. embarrass myself, but I So, I'm trying. to get a very popular actress to do a. movie I'm producing. So I am I'm still. with her at Jack's wife's Freda with the. director and I am in the bathroom of. Jack. Freda on University. Oh my I So you're in the bathroom of a. restaurant trying to secure an actress. for a project. Yes. I'm a girl boss like you and I'm.

just trying to make sure all my side. hustles like flourish. Very very good. I love it. Always. hustling. Always moving forward, never. looking back. Perfect. And then Ronan, where are you? I'm uh in my my home. office on the Lower East Side, not. trying to convince a glamorous actress. of anything right now, but you know, the. the day is young. I could find an actress to try to. persuade. in some way. Yeah, maybe. I'm going to try to keep up here. Jeremy's a lot to keep up with. I mean, I have so many questions and I. hope, by the way, that both of you come.

on so I can get in in in depth about. what you're both I mean, you're both. such interesting, brilliant people. And. I guess my question is what you know. when you think about Natasha and you. think about her in the world, a person. in the world like how how um how would. you how would you describe who Natasha. is as a person and a friend? Jeremy, you want to start? Um I would say she has more intellect in. her left pinky than most than most.

departments of major universities have. Um, she is truly the mo and and yet she. has this great ability of making you. feel like the biggest star ever, even at. your lowest. So, it's like wild. intelligence and wild generosity. combined into this sort of atomic bomb. of like the ideal friend. That's so well said, Ronan. My sense as. kind of a a broken person from a broken. home in some ways myself is that that.

runs very deep and you know you know her. deeply and so I I think you could ask. her about that on a profound level where. she is searching for a sense of family. and successfully creating it. I mean. that's that's the main thing that I. would add to this conversation. Natasha. for all the ways she's like riotously. fun and. eclectic in the things she does and the. people she surrounds herself with and. it's a wild ride being around her. She. also she is family to those dear to her.

and like I I really became more deeply. close with her in a period of my life. where I was at a low point and she. didn't even really have a way of knowing. that but I was like profoundly broken. and lonely and all of a sudden we went. from being acquaintances to her being. like every night you know come dinner. time Jeremy's very familiar with this. you'll get a text from her being like. what are we doing who are we screwing. you know and then it's like Natasha 's. wild circus, you know, um is is off to.

the races. A and through that. persistence and that kind of like lack. of traditional boundaries, she's not. indiscriminately that way, but when she. decides like, no, this this is a real. one and and I want to give them my. emotional space and time. It's such a gift cuz she really like. pulled me out of a moment of isolation. and and gave me a meaningful sense of. family. And all of a sudden we went from. like zero to 11. 11 being like spending.

the holidays together, you know, and I. was like bringing her to meet my family. We were going on vacations sometimes. with Jeremy. It's it is a real gift and. it's something that I've learned from. Like if you in our busy lives with all. these different distractions and things. going on that prevent reflection and. prevent deeper community sometimes, if. you can do what Natasha Leon does to the. people you love around you and just like. keep at them and make it happen, I think. that is actually the most meaningful way.

we can form community in a time when we. really need it. We really need it. individually. We really need it as a. country. So Natasha's the answer to. everything in con see this is why it's. so annoying that you went second because. you're so like I would have bait mine. better had I known that you were going. to give literally a mini. yeah you know screw jar superficial. [ __ ] answer. the community building and. okay what you guys seem to be to her. tell me if I'm wrong is there's a very. fraternal energy with you and Natasha.

like do you feel like her brother her. wife her lover her mother like where. where what if this is a family who are. you to her? In the many group chats I'll give like. I'll I'll send that clip of Oprah. talking about Gail King where she's like. she is the mother I never had. She is. the sister everybody wants. She is the. friend none of us deserve. Like like she. is all of those things. And that's why I think she's been the. ideal like you know sort of like u egg.

donor for my future sperm. Um, which is. something Ron and I have fought over, like who gets to take the Natasha eggs. Um, I think that like, you know, in a. society where eugenics is coming back in. fashion, um, Natasha and I would make. super babies as would she and Ronin. Oh, so. that's so true. That is that's a future. Jeremy Natasha baby would be gorgeous. Beautiful future world we can all. envision right now in our heads. Amazing. Amazing. Also, I want to change. this podcast to just Jeremy walking. through the streets of New York and us.

falling. Wait, what's happening with your actress. while you're strolling? So, sorry. Um, she's outside having a. cigarette with the director and I. thought they were. just pan to her just so we can see her. Jeremy is. I can't she says yes. I can't let you. know. But. you've got to put a post-prouction kota. on this episode. If we Yes, if we get her involved, please. But for right now, we're just. going to change her face into a cat and. we'll we'll reveal it if she says yes. Um, thank you both so so much. I you.

know, I have to say that one of the. nicest things about this is the feedback. I get from guests who feel very seen and. loved when we ask people who love them. to join. So, I have no doubt that. Natasha is gonna be so thrilled that we. talked because like you said, she's a. connector and um I think she's just. going to just so so I thank you and on. behalf of Natasha, I thank you for for. jumping on today. I know you're both so. busy. Thank you so much. I really love her. I hope I hope it was.

helpful. Did her justice in whatever. small way I can cuz I she's important to. me. She's been a real lifeline to me. Yeah, I love her too. I love her, too. Thank you so much, Amy. You're the best. Thank you so much, cutie. Hand me this. Hand me the necklace, honey. It's so tight. It's so tight. And also, I want to put. it in That's what she said. If you want. to know anything about the history of. Russian doll, the tightest vaginas in. the game came together. We're with. Natasha Leon. She's joining us. Uh,

that's right. You know, brief history of time. It's. like Stephen Hawkings. The universe. expands and contracts. And that's what. you need to know about women in Cind. And nobody can get from vagina to. Stephven Hawking faster than Natasha. Leon. So Natasha Leon, you're here. We have known each other. for um quite a while now. I would say. coming up on maybe 20 years in some. I would say maybe coming up on 30, which. is an exercise I'm not proud to have. recently done with our friend Clea.

Duval. Uh. you know, Clea directs this season. Last. season she played my sister. She's my. best friend. a big crush on Polar uh and. uh forever and uh rightfully so. Put me. in a sandwich. Everyone's married. Uh. that's not how it works, guys. Fantasy. Uh so, but so Clea is uh. directs the season. Does a great job. Uh. no spoilers, but she does direct Method. Man, who's my favorite. No offense. Uh. fantastic. I mean, I mean, we have the.

same sense of humor. The guest list on that show is. incredible. I have a an image of you, a. memory of you coming by UCB and of. course I knew who you were and I have. this image of you being like at the time. feeling like you were seeming and. presenting quite shy like. Mhm. gentle and shy like we didn't really I. was stoned. Oh yeah. I don't smoke pot anymore. Um and I was probably drunk and I also I. haven't had a drink in 20 years. Yeah, but I'm thinking about it today.

So we met, do you remember when we first. met? Um, so our friend, so Jake Fognest, so I. was like 16. You were 16 then? I was 16 and Jake Fogst was 16. Wow. When I was 15, uh, he's very popular. now. Have you heard of Woody Allen? Uh, okay. So I did this film uh, called. Everyone Says I Love You. Woody Allen. was my dad. Goldie Han was my mother. I. finally felt seen thanks to that onset. tutor. I discovered the surrealist. movement, Apocalypse Now, Heart of.

Darkness. I I mean, so many things changed through. that tutor. Anyway, I was 15, left. behind with a guardian because my mom. was well. Uh. and so I lived underneath uh or on the, you know, ground floor, so I guess. adjacent to Curry in a Hurry, uh which. is on 28th in Lexington. And uh this woman, she was a criminal. attorney. Her name was Ruth. She worked. uh at an office with Jake Fowl's dad as.

criminal attorneys at law. I'm guessing. it was called uh and for some reason it. was like oh both these kids are like 15. 16 and Jake had that show. on was it MTV? He had like an MTV show where he was. like a young fan interviewing like the. Beasty Boys. Yeah. Bork. Yep. He had a really good guest. And. Jake is a really sweet, tender, learned. guy who like liked a lot of things and. liked showing that he was enthusiastic.

about a lot of things and was a writer. and creator at a young age. And so sort of the basis for Wayne's. World if you've ever seen. So Wayne's. World is about these two guys. Uh and. but he was kind of the basis of that. like you know a sort of a um public. broad what public access. public access show in his mom's bedroom. as a kid. So, he's sort of like this, you know, young prodigy. I was doing. this movie. We were introduced. And the point is is that Jake was a. comedy. Like I was never a comedy nerd. I would say I'm still not, frankly. I.

just uh but he was sort of my gateway. drug. Uh. um and so he was the one that knew about. UCB. He was the one that was bringing me. to SNL. Uh and. I think that I was about 16. Wow. So you were 16. Yeah. cuz I do. remember a a a sweet and you know like a. a yeah a younger quieter version of you. then and it was I remember you coming. around with these big eyes and like.

observing a lot of stuff that was. happening there and being very sharp and. funny and everyone loving your work. already and you but you being um. uh like just even back then where when. you're in the room people want. head towards you like moth to flame. You. have a electricity about you and you did. then and I remember that. and you're really taking me back like. I'm pausing and taking us to McManus. Right. I want to take a minute because I. remember that and also it was like it it.

takes me back to a much younger time. too. We were like I we were only a few. years apart but it felt like a long we. were we were I don't know. I felt like. an old older. because to me you felt like just this. rock star just because first of all I've. never been a stage person. So figure. I've been you know acting since I'm. four. I just turned 21. Uh 46. And uh so. at that point I had been a child actor. I'd been on Peace Playhouse. Yeah. Very famously. I was Dennis the Menace's.

babysitter and Dennis the Menace. Okay. Not that famous. Christopher Lloyd. Walterm were there. uh didn't know who I. was. Uh Smoker. Uh and you know, so I'm. just saying I always say this to like. Christina Richi or McCauley Falcon. I'm. like, "Yeah, but you guys were child. stars. I was a child character actor.". I see. Yeah, that is. You're right. That. is different. Yeah. So, I wasn't really like exposed. at that level, but emotionally the kind. of tether that we all have or Haley Joel. is this season and poker face peacock.

may uh so he is also a child star. There's like this unspoken way that we. look at each other in the eyes and we're. just like, I know that you have been. alert and awake. since you were 4 years old and so have I. so specific. It's eerie. Cuz it's like that means I was doing the. family taxes at 12 years old. I was like, you know, there's a lot that. goes along with that. Yeah. Of paying the bills, being alert,

knowing how to like present. Yeah. to adults. Yeah. There's a big price to pay for. that and also access that you get at an. age that you may or may not be ready. for. It's a long way of saying by the time. I'd seen you on stage doing like Ascat, I was in shock just because my life had. been like I'd done 60 commercials and. I'd been for three seconds on screen and. as the world turns, you know, some. episodes of PB Playhouse, some weird. movies I made, you know, but like you.

just bound it up there. Even your show. recently with Tina, it's sort of this. thing that I was just like, what is this. activity? Because I was not a theater. person. I've never taken an acting. lesson, you know what I mean? So, it was. like, what is this weird like athletic. sport of confidence where it's just. so much running? Well, it's just that it's inside of you. Like, I think I learned so much from you. and from Fred about that. um this like. abundance idea of an endless supply.

probably I think that you guys get from. um dress rehearsal at SNL where you. throw out genius ideas and just move on. to the next day instead of lingering on. something like a diary entry. Oh my god, I wrote a sentence. Yes, it's funny you. say that. I do feel that one of the. things about that training is you. you you can't believe that your your. good idea is your last good idea and in. fact. throwing it away is like a power move to. remind you that the next good idea is. right behind it. You cannot get too.

precious about anything and you get. athletic in terms of like practicing. coming up with an idea cuz I I'm at a. point now I don't know about you but I. feel like sometimes we make the idea. king and I'm much more into people and. process. I think an idea is what it is. It's it can be shined to be this. beautiful idea. It can be totally dull. in the wrong hands. But an idea is not. as important a concept is not as. important as people in process for me. I. I hear you like and it's so much so that.

um in that whole exercise they do in. pitch meetings of why now or something. or like what's it about? It's kind of. like hey babe just so you know Amy and I. could make a show right now about this. pair of sunglasses. It doesn't [ __ ]. matter. And the reason why now is. because whatever where you and I are at. in this moment emotionally that we're. is, you know, saucy for us or to use. your word, juicy, right, will make this pair of sunglasses go. live on that story. And, you know, it's.

but it's it's but a prop for our kind of. inner. nowness or something of what we find. interesting. And it'll be filmed in. either black and white or color or you. know on 16 or the AI generate. Who gives. a [ __ ] Like it's really going to be. about where we're at emotionally. It's. not actually it's all in the execution. and the human beings that you're doing. it with. It's not actually the idea. That's right. When you talk about young. TSH, can you give me a little like a.

snapshot of young Natasha on in New York. City walking around? like what did it. look like when you were 7 8 n walking. around? What did what did your New York. look like? Where were you? She's. thinking to herself and this is where I. get mixed up. Okay, because I couldn't. tell you if I've seen too many movies. dusted, not on PCP, on dust. Have you. guys ever just tried raw dust? You go to. the film forum, you just put your. fingers along the the side of the seat.

and you just wave it gently in your. periphery. Just dust. New York dust. Man, that's. just New York pure dust. It's not even. It's not even a Have you guys ever. snorted either? It's crazy. So anyway, I. couldn't tell you. Okay, if it was Dairo and Taxi Driver or. it was me in Time Square as a. seven-year-old is what I'm trying to. say. Amy Polar, I want to But I remember being left. behind at various castings. In my mind,

there's this uh alcoholic figure. Let's. call him dad. Uh, and I I'm there. I'm. at an audition or like, you know, I was. a child model. That's probably why I. pose so well. Now, there we get to it. I was a Ford model at like six. Okay. Later I moved to close-ups. Um, I. remember him casting rooms in Midtown. Also, my mother. Mhm. Uh Paul Rubin uh so lovingly said to me. when he took me to a steak dinner in the.

valley after rehab. Uh he said to me, oh, don't worry about it. I was never. shocked when things went south. You're. going to be okay. Uh but it was. inevitable. You got to remember I met. your mother. Uh so it was a real comfort. for me that there was a witness to that. time in my life. Mhm. The only other one I really have is I. guess I have I have Gabby Hoffman and. Natalie Portman and Lucas Hus because uh. they were also in that Woody Allen movie. where already I had um a a guardian, right? And by the way, my mom is awesome and so.

is my dad. Like they're they're really. like. brainy wonderful people. I would just. say that the big discovery of modern. times is we have treated versus. untreated mental health addiction. whatever. Like now that's that's the. revelation. And it's like there's no. shame in whatever your mental health or. you know addiction or whatever else. It's about you know are you treated or. untreated like are you experiencing a. cycle of shame where you refuse to get. help for it. or are you doing your best you know in.

the day you're in one day at a time to. kind of address it. I just think they. didn't know. Like honestly, I think it. was the 80s. There was a lot of cocaine. around. Uh and I just think that was the. best they could do, you know? I forgive. them for it. Cut to the end of the story. I do recall. a lot of me in Midtown sort of like I'd. go into the audition or the modeling. casting commercial or uh print. And when. I came out, sort of like where are they?

You know what I mean? sort of like. walking around Midtown and this is where. I can't remember if it's me or Dairo and. Taxi Driver. I now it's such a cleaned. up hood with Disney. back then there was a lot of. it was a lot of stuff. So I remember being kind of like street. wise. Yeah. Cuz like if you just sort of you had to. you know kids we didn't have cell. phones. Uh. we didn't even necessarily know how to. use a uh yellow pages. Uh you just had. to sort of like know how to kind of sit. still and have a sense of where they.

might reappear, right? And and be big and small at the. same time. Yeah. Yeah. And know how to like There's this uh. Dairo quote that I read about getting. recognized in New York. He's like, "I'm. a professional. If I want to get. recognized and I need a seat at a. restaurant, I just, you know, put on my. Dairo face, throw my shoulders back, and. I'm a famous guy. And if I want to walk. through Manhattan and have some peace of. mind, I just disappear into myself and I. become part of the wall, you know? Yeah. So, for some reason, that really. resonated with me. And I think.

even as a kid, I sort of learned how to. do that of sort of like I need help. versus I'm in Midtown Manhattan, so I. need to disappear into myself. Yeah. So, you know, there's no human. trafficking. Yes. Yes. essentially. it, you know, so we do this thing on the. show where we talk to people before our. guest comes. who may know them or like be fans of. theirs or have some, you know, experience being in their lives to kind. of like talk well behind their back and. they also give me questions. Um, they.

think I should ask you. So, um, we spoke to Ronan. and Jeremy. just about an hour ago. Okay. About you. Uh, oh. Did they tell you that I tried to get. shaman from both of them because I had a. fantasy about having 13 children? They're fighting over your eggs. currently. They both know. Good luck. Congrats, by the way. By the way, but wait, so Ronan and Jeremy, of course, and they dearly, dearly love. you. Um, as do I. And we talked a lot.

about how um you have this uh way in. which you um. bring people together, right? you really. want uh to uh create a a group a a. family in the way you bring people. together and. you know Ronan wanted me to ask you. which is like do you like do you feel. that way like you're collecting family. when you bring people into your life? Uh.

so just to say like yeah because I have. this uh wacky family of origin story. where like I mean yeah just you know the. facts are they just simply don't exist. You know what I mean? Like I uh they. exist in my mind's eye harrowing. degrees. Uh you and I made a whole show. about it. Um. Jeremy and I recently uh finished a. script. Derio Harris uh and and I. recently uh he's a very uh the most Tony.

nominated playwright. Incredible. Yeah. And uh anyway, we just finished. something and I was like, "Holy [ __ ]. fiction, you know, we were and I was. like I because you and I have spent so. much time sort of. and I I've spent so much time doing. self-reerential bits." Uh but. what did that feel like to write some. story, a fictional story? It was incredible. like when I sent it. out to, you know, when I sent the email. out, I was like sitting at home and I. was texting Chloe and uh it was like 4.

in the morning. So, she was up with uh. Vana, you know, in New York at 7:00 a.m. for her. Me, I was in the middle of the. night. My hands were cramped. I was had. like full carpal tunnel. And I uh you. know, of course, it's a there's a few of. you guys that really changed my life. It's like you and Norah Efron and uh. Genji Cohen and uh um uh Cindy Holland. and like these kind of like powerhouse. women that just sort of like appeared. in, you know, the top of act two of my. life and said, "Listen, [ __ ] you're a.

writer.". Uh you know, you're a world builder. Let's go. And I was like, "No, no, no.". Uh so Nora and I were very close. You. know, I did her uh play poker together. and stuff like that. But my hands and I. looked and I was texting Chloe and I was. like, I think maybe I just sort of. morphed into a type of Nora because I. kicked out this, you know, fiction pilot. that Jeremy and I wrote together, but it. was like I was in Los Angeles alone with.

a dog in bed at like 400 a.m. just kind. of as a showrunner person kind of. correcting typos and synthesizing and. you know making sure it was ready to get. PDFed. Yeah. And I could feel my hands and I was like. the spirit of Nora was sort of in me in. that moment of I because remember how. she was like this I never met Nora. You never met her? No. What was she like? I would have. loved I know I would have loved. she was a real Amy Polar. What a nice thing to say. Tosh. I mean,

Nora was I like revolutionary. Um, you know, she I remember uh so my first. gig, Heartburn. Mhm. I'm just a you know, an extra asleep on. a lap. Maybe Jangos and Mel Street are. getting married or something. That means. Mike Nichols picked me from a p was a. big deal in my house. Uh no lines. Uh, and then about, uh, maybe when I was. like 30, so that was probably I was. four. When I was 30, uh, Dileia Efron.

and and Nora wrote this, uh, show called. Love, Lost, and What I Wore. And I said. to them in Midtown in one of these. offices, I was like, "Hi, Dillia. Hi, Nora. I'm not really sure what the play. is. I'm not a big theater guy, although. I've seen Amy and Ashcat on stage and. but really I'm having some relationship. problems and I feel like you guys might. be able to help if that's okay. They. did. I broke up with that guy and Norah. said to me, "Nat, I know you're in. heartburn, but have you ever read it?". And she handed me a copy and I was like,

"Holy Toledo, who is this human being?". beyond this sort of image of sort of. clean, you know, comprehens. like being reminded of how much Nora put. herself in that story like really let us. in really let us into her at a time when.

those kind of characters felt paper. thin. like she was like gut a blood and. guts character in that piece was so. amazing to read it again. It was just so so it totally like was. like a tectonic plate shifting moment. and also what like I'm somebody who's. always had this weird chip on my. shoulder that I need to shake it's no. longer serving around like being a tough. guy or being bad or cursing. That's. really me being. you know I'm just nervous. I'm just. you know an introvert extrovert kind of.

weirdo who's like making it up as I go. a lifelong improviser with no training, winging it, you know what I mean? And. kind of like relying on the people that. I'm like, you know, are like a drowning. man sees as a life preserver. Like, who. the [ __ ] is Amy Polar? Like, I think. that's safe, you know what I mean? Um, and so for me, like, you know, Nora was. God, I just she's a giant. and she was safe. She was safe for you. It was also that it changed my worldview.

around. um so like I'm a scholarship kid on the. upper east side like so the family had. some money then they lost it then by the. time it's me and my mom like alone you. know she's divorced now on the upper. east side and I'm yeah uh 10 uh I'm. going to this private school on the. upper east side but we're in like the. wrong side of the track sort of I'm not. sure if you're familiar with the film. called Slums of Beverly Hills I might be. in it but uh in Manhattan uh It takes. place in Los Angeles. In Manhattan, you.

also have like on the upper east side, the good apartments are the ones on like. Park Avenue and like within this space. that's really rarified air. Uh in the fringes of it though, you have. other people there. So, I had this beef. with Nora because I imagined her as like. real upper east side. She retrained my. mind to understand that no kid she would. be uh she would say to me like just stay. in the house and call the housekeeper. smoke outside. She would remind me that. her parents were screenwriters. Oscar.

Levant who's extraordinary Google uh you. know he was the neighbor like that. the the history of um. complex humanity is so embedded into the. DNA and the fabric of like every single. individual on this earth you know let. alone every person that presents well. on camera or something. It really healed. something, I think, to have her take me. under, you know, Rojo would say to me.

back then, like, you're not um you're. not the uh irregular sheets on in the. discount bin at Bed Bath and Beyond. You. know what I mean? Like, not to be married to that. Ty Daly. would say to me on that production, don't be a part of The Walking Wounded, you know, be a foot soldier. like. let go of the story that there's some. sort of inner brokenness that you must. heal that you must be constantly. apologizing for by being chaotic or. taking up space or being confused. You. know, you're not running on time. Oh my.

all this kind of stress and anxiety that. manifests in these ways that people. don't understand. like you Nora, you know what I mean? Like these kind of like tethers for me. of it's also okay to be sane and yeah. successful and well. Yes. And boy were. we sane successful and well when we did. Russian Doll, right? I mean ish, you know, and I would. say that we were insane in all the right. ways. Like.

I think that's a good way to say it. I. mean, we did a show called Old Soul, which was kind of like a straightforward. sitcom based on loosely based on the. idea that kind of what you were talking. about is that at the time you were. feeling like you were surrounded by. older people who were who you were. learning something from, who were kind. of like surrounding you and taking care. of you and you felt like an old soul and. that was an idea that we made a show. that didn't go but what a cast in that. show. If we can just talk about it, tell. it. Okay, if I can remember, it was.

Ellen Buren. Mhm. Richard Benjamin, Fred Willard, Rita. Moreno, Mara Gibbs, Mara Gibbs, and Greta Lee. Gre the great Greta Lee. Yeah. Um. Nikki Cat Cruel with a little cameo. Yes. And Nick. Nick Thun. And. it was so And I remember that. experience. It was kind of like, you. know, one of the many times when you're. doing this job, you have a heartbreak of. like, is the is it going to go? Is it going.

the way it's supposed to go? Are we. feeling the way we're supposed to feel? But I remember. you working with you on that was the. beginning of me realizing a couple. things. First, that you can do almost. anything. You are able to produce and. write and direct. You also are you have. this thing that the camera the camera. just loves you, Natasha. like it want it. it I guess when I talk about an. electricity that you have it the camera. is like mommy the camera's like there's. my mommy there's my mommy um so watching.

you perform was incred I was a was a an. actor a lesson in acting and um and then. just said I wanted to do more I wanted. to work with you more again and then we. kind of cannibalized that idea a little. bit but just kept talking about the. bigger ideas of of what it's like to. kind of feel like you live your life. over and over again or if you get the. kind of reset what would you do with it. and what does that feel like and and. yeah tell people if what you remember.

about those beginning days of Russian. doll um to synthesize I guess somewhat. uh it's interesting. that the way I remember uh old soul. into Russian. is. okay we knew each other for we met each. other around this Ascant time, right? I. sort of saw you. You were like this tiny. little giant with the funniest, sexiest. like hot little blonde number who was.

just a freak. Like so [ __ ] funny. Amy. Polar. Jesus Christ, you know, so quick. and nimble and like a real like an. Olympian, like an acrobat, you know, because it was just the way you throw. yourself around that stage and come up. with new ideas all at once. And then of. course SNL all those years backstage but. just kind of not that tight. We saw each. other at some premiere at MoMA. We kind of had a laugh. Next day you. call me. I'm in bed watching NYPD Blue.

Falling in love with Dennis France. No, the phone's never ringing. And you say, "As long as I've known you've always. been the oldest girl in the world. Should we make a show about it?" Sure. Old soul. And then the way I remember it. is when that didn't go, we were crushed. Yeah. And we got into a car and I. remember I think I was driving the. windows were rolled up. I was chain. smoking and you didn't like that. And. you said. I still don't. Natasha I know the show didn't go. It's.

really hard but picture for picture if. you will my body. No picture picture for. a moment. Imagine there was no network. There were no rules. There was no. anything. What is the show that we would really. want to make? What's the story we would. really want to tell if we left all that. aside, assuming we could do anything. anywhere? And that that's how we started. getting to this idea of you could go to. the same party over and over again. You. could take everybody home thinking that.

something outside of self would heal. you, would change you, would fix you. Uh. but no matter which iteration of this. sort of exterminating angel uh Benwell. reference journey you would take or the. Doug Hoffet version would be I'm a. strange loop or whatever uh parallel. path you would still find yourself at. home with you and your unresolved stuff. if you didn't really face it head on and. the real goal of Russian doll is you had.

always described it as it was the search. for the littlest doll inside of you that. is the truth of who you are. Then we do Russian Doll. Big hit. What a. hit. What a hit. How fun. What a hit. Wasn't. remember the Emmys Day? Oh my gosh. All. those nominations after all that work. So fun. I mean, I got to tell you. something. I haven't been on a I've. never been on a show that was a hit in. real time. I've been in a show that was.

a slow like, oh that's people love that. It was a slow climb and I've been on a. lot of things that didn't pop. And I've. been in films that I felt like I added. and contributed to but didn't really. feel like was truly something that felt. like I was a major part of. And to be on. a show that is a hit is I recommend. Yo, strong recommend. Parade is wild. And the idea that that. was the thing that people responded to. was shocking.

Like, you know, yeah, American Pie was. the number one movie in the world or. something. It didn't feel like it was. that close to the bone. It wasn't like. I'm telling you about, you know, trauma. and mommy issues and [ __ ] I don't. know, being self-destructive and wanting. to take yourself out in this life. And. the need to move from a nihilistic lens. that's placed on you through an. epigenetic footprint that is the road. map of each human being that one must.

forgive themselves for that may lead to. sort of nihilistic self-obsessed. behavior that's self-destructive. transitioning into connection with. another human being who's probably a. stranger through like a small act of. kindness, you know, in a big city. and. that that's the solution to your sort of. metaphorical. dying over and over again, insanity. defined, you know, making the same. mistakes, thinking you're going to have. a different outcome. Shocking that that's what connected. Mhm. And it was funny,

hard fun. I mean the that feeling too I. just have to like contextualize. that was a time precoid. um when Netflix was uh taking I think. big chances and real chances on full. season orders and artists and being like. yeah I like your um I like the package. that you got. I like I like I trust you. Amy. I trust you Natasha. I trust you. Leslie Hedland. you're coming in with an.

idea here like make it and go more than. that. I think it was algorithmically it. was like Leslie Hedlin uh was it. sleeping with other people that were. something was um also uh like her movies. combined with parks and wreck combined. with I guess Orange is the New Black. when you put it through that at the time. sauce yielded this is the budget for. this many episodes. It's going to be a. lowbudget thing whatever you want to. make. It just so happened that what we.

wanted to make was you know quantum. physics comedy uh and Uh, so we did. Now you you when you you you just. brought up quantum physics. You're. probably the only person I know who. reads quantum physics book. Only actor I. know anyway who reads quantum physics. quite regularly. I'm assuming that can't be true. But I. do uh I am a uh yeah, I do find it very. relaxing. It's sort of how I quiet the. mind. I love uh.

things I don't understand. And over time. uh I've even begun to understand uh you. know some. you know like small concepts or. something like a double slit experiment. is very much the kind of concept behind. why Charlie and Nadia you know die at. the same time all the time like these. are sort of for the one or two people. listening who don't know what the double. slit experiment is what is it. uh yeah I think it's just it's. essentially the concept about what is.

the fabric of the universe Right? Like, are we here? You've done acid. You're. Amy Fuller. Uh you're the listeners at. home. You've all done LSD or micro. doing. I know what young people are into. today with their. uh mushrooms and chocolates and candy. bars and gummies and whatnot. Uh but. with that little feeling that you have, are we here? Yeah. Or even like what is, you know, a. deep sleepm state? What what what's. going on, right? Like. what the hell is going on? or when you. close your eyes real tight and you open. them and there's all little particles.

and stuff and it's a little bit trippy. or weird. or a real pedantic version of that is. like deja vu just that is. what is deja vu right so a lot of people. are basically after the same question. which is what is this fabric of the. universe or this sort of unseen thing. that we don't can't comprehend like are. we in multiple timelines is it you know. um AI I so advanced now that it's. scraped all of our data against our will.

that it's actually running tests and. simulations on that to actually figure. out in this sort of paperclip sort of. experiment type of thing of you know. endless iterations to discover which. world we should be in for a positive. outcome. Like is any of it real? The. bottom line is in a day-to-day basis it. just doesn't [ __ ] matter if any of. this stuff exists or not because it's. basically you still got to pay your. bills. You still have responsibilities. You got to show up. You got to [ __ ]. take a shower, you know, and you got to. like be a person. So, you can't get so.

lost in space. But emotionally, for the. purposes of Russian doll, it was really. about, you know, this dual timeline kind. of thing, right? Then Nadia and uh Allan. were fractured in or in season 2, it's. kind of about this sort of a quantum. leaping, right? And it's uh Carlo Realli. poses the question, why can I remember. my past but I can't remember my future? So, you know, we used it in a. storytelling device as would I be able. to forgive the experience that was. grandfathered into me traumatically.

if I had a day to walk in their shoes. and understand that, you know, my parent. came by it honestly. It wasn't on. purpose, that damage done. But all these. ideas about sort of like healing and. science and sort of connection and the. idea that two different individuals. could exist in two different timelines. but be having a similar experience. because they're tethered by something. unknown that's connecting them and. binding them is still also part of this. idea of what we're talking about of like. creating family and all this kind of. stuff of even when you and I are not. together because we're busy. I know you.

exist and it feels like a you know thank. god you know something like that. You know, listening to you is like. watching a symphony. Like the way you. talk is like uh a bunch of instruments. playing together. You you have the. highest aptitude for talking of almost. anyone I've ever met. You're very good. at talking. Thanks, Amy. It's not my real tongue. You got you got a tongue transplant? Um do you uh would you ever own a robot.

in your house? Um, and if you did, what would you hope it. did for you? Let me think. So, it depends. Um, I guess like, you know, my the first thing that comes. to mind actually, the only thing I've. been thinking about since you asked, uh, is root beer, my dog. So, I'm like, how. is it helping root beer? Is it soft? Does root beer love it? Root beer is now 15, which is weird. Wow. I'm somebody that always thinks I'm. going to be like, you know, dying any.

second. And, uh, even root beer is 15. And for people who don't know, Root Beer. is what kind of dog? A multi-poo. Yeah. A Rottweiler. Yeah. I'm Rottweiler at heart. I. tell people. Yeah. And Root Beer um is really Rubar's. 15. Wow. It's wild. Yeah. Cuz I'm like, she's. even old for people years, let alone dog. years. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a sense of when um you you. like a lot of your work deals with.

death? You're very open about thinking. about it. You meditated. meditate on it. a lot more than people I know. Do you. have a sense of when you'll die? Later today. Oh, good. Well, then let's get let's let's finish. up. I can't tell if it's going to be, you. know, I mean, like that's what's so. weird about the existential threat of. AI. A lot of this stuff really is just. from um you know, all the Russian doll. deep dive research that I was doing. along the way. And you know, I'd be. sending you articles in all hours of the. night. Yeah. Uh you got to see this one. You know, is. it a simulation, Amy? Uh, and.

I mean, and I'm always like, I think so. I think so. And I'm like, there's a joke. in here, right? You're a professional. Where's the joke? And I'm like, yeah. I mean, it it it to. your point like it that the it's like. you have to like get into the heaviness. of it and then. life is a dream and nothing matters. You. have to constantly flip back and forth. between those two things. Yeah. To get through the day. I think so. Uh, so. what do you do? What do you do to get. through the day that isn't like where.

you're using a ton of brain? Like so. I've been asking people like what is the. thing right now in these times with. everything is quite heavy. What do you. do to check out to zone out to like what. do you watch or listen to? What do you. what do you do? So you know I have a swimming pool and. I'm a swimmer. You've seen the swimmer. with Bert Lancaster. I uh I swim uh and. also like you know I I do some kind of. like meditate like when I wake up I kind. of. Do you meditate. a little bit you know like I've done the.

TM course and but I'll just sort of sit. there and I'll kind of like zone out. look at the trees watch root beer run. around you know what I mean and then do. some laps and then if it's a more sporty. day you know there might be some you. know ree you know Brianino involved. depending like you and catching a vibe. that way. Um, when you're swimming, can I ask you more. questions about swimming? When you're. swimming, what's going through your. head? I think a lot lately about I I'm I'm.

just a big science, I guess. So, I think. a lot about how weird it is that we're. animals, so I think a lot about how. weird it is that like I'm like, "This is. so amphibian." I like those are my. thoughts when I'm I'm like, "What's. going on right here? What is this move?". And they call it a breaststroke. And. then I'll go over here and I'm thinking. about Busby Berkeley or you know how uh. back in the 90s I used to say to Chateau. Marmmont and Ann Meera of uh Mirror and. Stiller you know she'd be there and she. and I would do jokes where we would swim. be like isn't LA funny? Look at us.

swimming like two Busby Berkeley number. you know girls and we would try to try. to do synchronized swimming but it was. me and Anna we didn't succeed. That's. not captured anywhere. like and so I'll. think about that while I'm and I it's. weird they caught a breast stroke and so. what if some people do what do you do to. storytelling so but your mind is still. going there your mind even when you're. swimming your mind is going what when. does your mind I would say that it's uh. uh oh probably you know sport [ __ ] uh.

so sex uh so I would say why I'm such a. I'm always you know saying right like. hey guys like cuz I think you know sex. is a very uh people like to really um. you know consider it and give all this. meaning to it. I'm a little bit more. German than all that. It turns out not. German at all. But I think it's like. there's a there's a physical we are. animals. is important sort of like medically to.

quiet the mind through a third activity. that reminds us you know sports. essentially is what I mean you know. athletics the double slit theory the. double [ __ ] theory uh and so you know I. would just say that swimming and you. know sexing. sexing. uh and. so body stuff. body stuff is what gets you what what. pulls you in. I I relate like that idea. of like feeling grounded in your own. body. Yeah. When do you But do you have it in. other ways?

Yeah. I I I I relate to this feeling. sometimes when I'm living in my head. like I need a like pressure like. physical pressure whether it's like work. swimming or like physical touch. something that like reminds me to get. back into my body. Yeah. Like and it's also like oh the big. one obviously like the reason that I you. know I'm so in in love with you and Fred. Maya whatever has really always been. about um laughing. that hard.

is an outer I'm tell you're talking to. somebody who's done every drug in the. history of the world including dust at. the film forum I just got New York side. of the seat dust. and it's shocking. yeah that literally like hard laughing. where you will forget where you are and. go to a third space like I'm saying. where you're just like is this even. [ __ ] the fabric of reality? I don't. even remember. I can't remember what I. was pissed off about. Yes. Yes. Yes. I hear you. It is um.

major. It's major. It's major medicine. Major. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like I'll laugh hard and. I'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I thought I. was depressed. I just haven't been. doubled over laughing in like, you know, a week. What happened? When's the last time you've laughed. really hard? What have you laughed at. hard lately? Well, I. What are you laughing at right now? What's making you laugh? I had this uh hang recently.

Uh Joe Lennon's a you know, a musician. and an old friend of mine and he said, "Come meet this polymath." Uh and uh. then uh you know I went home and uh well. gentlemen and uh he was there and then. we kind of dissected the polymaths the. quote unquote polymaths theories about. uh the universe. and we sort of were able to break them. down to like a moment in time where he.

developed a resentment against a science. program and that that's what his sort of. theory of everything was based on we. were doubled over laughing so hard. You you observed something about someone. in real time that you were Yeah. And we were just laughing so hard. because the idea that it was sort of. couched and you know out here we meet a. lot of people that are you I love your. when you say enough with the geniuses. Too many geniuses. Talk about that. please. The word genius is thrown around a lot.

Yeah. And it is it's oppressive. The word. genius is oppressive. I mean, and it's. kind of. and also it's used primarily for men, you know. Um, I I would say like maybe. double up on calling women geniuses and. maybe dial it back a little bit, but I think you also say that like. enough with the geniuses. Sometimes. people just need to get to work because. geniuses have like absolutely. self kind of like you know obsessed. concepts or whatever and you know like. well concept yeah concepts don't pay you. know concepts don't pay the bills. They don't get pen to paper. You got to. kick out a draft babe.

That's right. And I mean you like you. you can't you can sit in your think tank. forever but you know like chop chop. You. got to make something and you got to. fail. Yes. You got to you got to get out there and. try. Okay. I got one more question for you. I love. you so much. Love you so much forever. Um but I got one more question. We. should talk about poker face. What a what a what a gift that you're. doing this cuz it means that we get to. hang out. I mean really that's. that was my favorite thing about today. is I get to see you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, that's what's. so funny about growing up and, you know,

being these show people. I think that. over time we learn unless you're making. something with your friends. Yeah. You. really don't get to see him. No, that's why I work is so that I can. see my friends. Also, I get a real boner in a non weird. way. I know you're a taken. You're. spoken for, ma'am. Uh, but you know, I. get the platonic boner when I see you on. set with like your [ __ ] what are. these called? Your earbuds or some [ __ ]. call them cans. Oh, canes. There's a real term for them.

And you know, directing, producing, like. I love seeing, you know, and I I love. direct. I love being at the. I want to talk about powers and watching. my friends do it, I'm like, "Oh, this is. who you are." J Nixon Bravo. You know. what I mean? When you directed Poker Face, tell me. about that experience because it's so. great. You're such You're incredible in. it. And you What was your experience. directing on that show? Uh, and in general, what's your experience? How much do you like it? Yeah. I mean, I. I I love directing. I know you do, too.

Yeah. What What What do you love about. it? It just feels like. I'm in my right place. Like my feet are. where they're supposed to be. And if you're asking me about like what. quiets my mind, it is I don't know if. it's the same for you, but it is like. that's when I hear the click. So much is. happening that is so in the present. moment. that finally I'm like in my body and. hear the click. And they also when. you're an actor they're kind of like do. you need to pee pee? And when you're a.

direct and you're always just like like. uh I'm in my 40s like I think if I had. to pee oh now that you mention it I'm in. my 40s I totally got to pee. Uh sure. Thanks for reminding me. Uh but when. you're a director nobody says you have. to pee pee. And when you go pee pee they. don't say are you going to come back? They know you're coming back. you're making the movie and when you're. at the moni, you know, when you're an. actor, you're kind of sitting there and. you're like, why is everyone so. stressed? I'm a codependent. I can feel. it. I'm like an empathy guy. I can read.

a room. But when you're behind the. monitor, you're like, I know why we're. stressed. It's because we're looking at. the oneliner for tomorrow with the first. AD and so and so missed their connecting. flight, you know, out of Austin. So, it's not. Is it as simple as control? Because what you're talking about is. like feeling like you got to hand over. your control to other people or be able. to be in control of like how you shape. your day, your project, your own. experience, the time you get to go to.

the bathroom. I think that that's this. weird ancillary bonus. Mhm. I think that for me what it's really. about is like being this like 360 like. film making machine that is actually. getting involved like lenses and camera. positions and angles and what's in the. frame and what's not in the frame and. what is the actor doing and how we need. to on the fly change that line of. dialogue to reflect that or because. we're running out of light so therefore. we're going to reposition this whole. thing and it's like I just feel so.

no like I feel like 360 activated at. like what I was like made to do. Yeah. As a kind of yes, it is in control as. like a conductor, but it's a conductor. of like a frame. And it's also that like, you know, I think what I I I hate being. a I don't like being famous. I think. it's whack. Like I I'm just saying I've. been a character actor for a New York. character actor for like, you know, 40. years and then like famous for six. It's. super [ __ ] weird. Like people treat. you all like you're a some like I'm a.

I'm a person. I'm just winging it too. But when you're a director, you're with. what's amazing about Pokerface. especially is like I am with the crew. Like I know it's like you know me and. you know Rob Harlo the dolly grip we're. making the show together. Like I [ __ ]. love that dude because the cast is all. rotating. So they're the cast is. rotating, directors are rotating, write. writers are rotating. So it just feels.

like I'm one with the camera as I should. be and really discovered that directing. in Russian no a real piece comes over my. body where I'm like inside of the. material as an artist. instead of sort of sitting outside of it. waiting for somebody to tell me you know. this child you did a good job or not. It's kind of like. it's very alive like I start walking. like Charlie Chaplan because it's so. many things are happening at once and. it's very funny.

How do you feel when you do it? I that's exactly you you said it. beautifully which is the idea of like. the idea of being in community in. creativity creativity in community is. what directing feels like. It feels like. you're you're um people are looking to. you to have answers, but the answers lie. within all the people making the piece. That's it. And it's really fun. Like I know the. thing is is that acting is so lonely. Like yes, Cle and I used to do this funny thing. She was dating a a drummer. Uh she.

living in Tanga. She had like six wiener. dogs, wiener dogs. Uh but you know her. girlfriend at the time would be in there. drumming, practicing for the band. And. Cle and I would sit out there with those. wiener dogs and the penguin. be like, "So, [ __ ] we're actors. How come we. don't get to do band practice? Should we. jam? Should we act?" Uh, that's what's. so weird about acting and writing, you. know, at least in draft, not in the. room. They're they're very lonely sport. That's right. But directing is a team sport. I I. cannot wait for Poker Face. I cannot. wait for that new season. I love.

watching you act. I love watching I love. listening to your brain. I love seeing. you in person. I love being around you, Tosh. I love being I miss you, too, bud. And I. and I love being part of the the weather. system that is you. I love being able to. be get close to you any chance I I can. I'm always so ashamed as if it's a. series of weather reports and like the. big event in life is to just be like, you know, no waves at all.

No waves. And also, I want you to know I. kept this necklace safe the entire time. cuz I was nervous about it being going. missing. But here it is for you. That's. so crazy cuz you're uh known klepto. mania rack. Ma'am, I didn't replace it with like fake. diamonds while we were talking or. anything. I would never do that. That's a weird move. Um I love you, Tashi. I love you, Amy. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for. coming. Thanks for having me. Oh man, Natasha, thank you for coming.

And um uh you're just the best. And you. know, Natasha talked about so many. things, but she mentioned something that. I wanted to just remind listeners about. as we plunge into our polar plunge at. the end of the show, and that is the. book Heartburn by Norah Efron. It's an. incredible deep dive character study. into the breakup of a marriage. Um, and. it also was made into a film with Meil. Stre and Jack Nicholson. I would advise. reading the book and then watching the. movie, but you can do it either way. But. both are just these beautiful pieces of.

art and really honest storytelling and. um heartburn. So good. Still so good. Nora, so good. Thank you for everything. that you gave us. Um all right. Well, thanks so much for listening to Good. Hang and uh we'll we'll we'll see you. soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The. executive producers for this show are. Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and. me, Amy Polar. The show is produced by. The Ringer and Paperkite. For the Ringer. production by Jack Wilson, Cat Spalain,

Kaia McMullen, and Aia Xenier. For. Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel. Levelvel, and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles. really good. Hey.