Anne Lamott | Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Hello everyone and welcome to another. episode of Good Hang. Very excited to. have our guest on today. It is the great. writer Anne Lamott. And I know we've had. writers on before and authors, but this. is an author author. This is a writer. writer. You know what I mean? Anne. Lamott is. best-selling author who has written such. books as Bird by Bird and Traveling. Mercies and Operating Instructions. And. we're going to talk to Anne about so.

many good things today. We're going to. talk about Jesus and we're also going to. talk about Mary. We're going to talk. about um. being a you know a a sweet and tender. kid in San Francisco trying to figure. out life. We're going to talk about. finding love with people who are. allergic to cats and you love cats and. what do you do about it? And we're going. to talk about her new book that she. wrote with that love, her husband Neil. Allen. And it is called good writing and. we're going to get into that. So lots to. discuss today with Anne and thrilled. that she's here. And you know, I wanted.

to um. I wanted to find somebody who loved Anne. like I did and was a fan of her books. And I figured why not go back to one of. my nearest and dearest friends and. friend of the pod, the one the only my. favorite writer Tina Fey. Tina? Tina Elizabeth Fey, are you there? >> [music]. >> This episode is presented by Allstate.

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>> [music]. [music]. [singing]. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Betty, thank you for coming on again. You are an official friend of the pod. You've been on now, I think 14, 15. times. >> I love it. I want The one time I came on. and remember I was all dressed up like. uh Gwyneth Paltrow and nobody Nobody. caught on that that was that was me. >> [laughter]. >> Oh my god, you were so good. >> I just do a really good Gwyneth Paltrow.

impression. >> [laughter]. >> Your hair looks incredible. >> Thank you. >> Is this a blowout? >> This is a blowout and I'm spending a lot. There's a lot of breakage, but we're. just going to press through. We're going. to press through. >> Are you at a point now where you're. getting a blowout even if you're not. working? >> For my own sanity sometimes I go like. once a week like a 1950s lady. Also. because the thought of um. of walking around my apartment with wet. hair, I can't take it. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz I yeah, I can't do hair. This is.

like something Anne might write about. cuz it's like exercise in hope and faith. and every time I air dry my hair, I. believe it's going to come out better. And it never does. >> Actually, Anne Lamott who, you know, is. an amazing writer. She's written. fiction, she's written memoir, she's. written She's like an essayist. She's. She's self-revealing. She She's written. in all different genres that I want to. talk to her about today. She has also written about hair and like. her hair, her body, like coming to terms.

with our like physical selves like in. and she and she's really funny about it. Like how she. tries to reconcile like we all do like. her physical. parts. >> [laughter]. >> I thought that was so interesting when. you were talking to Carol Burnett too. about, you know, how old do you feel? She's like, I feel 11. Didn't she say. 11? >> 11. >> Yeah, and I get that. And we do forget. You There. there are times when you you are. absolutely feel that way and you just.

and you absolutely forget about. the carcass that you're in. and how long it's been around. >> I asked you to do this. um. first part because. you and I have talked about Anne Lamott. and how much we like her and like her. writing. And I think there will be. people listening to this pod today that. will be die-hard fans of hers and then. people that might be discovering her. work for the first time. If you were to. talk to somebody who had never read her. um how would you describe her as a.

writer? >> I would describe her writing as very. honest and funny. and um. it's like meeting. a new friend. When you meet a friend who. you instantly go, "Oh, you're you're one. of my people." You know, um because. she's so direct and she's so. Yeah, she's just so unguarded in her. memoirs. Um. and. I also. uh. I love the book Bird by Bird. I give.

that book to people all the time. Anyone. interested in writing, any kid, you. know, going to college. It's just um. it's such a. helpful demystifying book about writing. Um and yeah, do you know, Anne's books I. I've turned to them many times in my. adult life for. to to to take comfort. They they are a. comfort, you know, um Traveling Mercies. and Operating Instructions and Some. Assembly Required. At different phases.

in your life that those books are all a. tremendous comfort and they make you. they help you feel less insane. >> That's so true. Anne Lamott, I'm going. to find out more about her today. I've. been like. reading her stuff in preparation for. this. This is actually this is the first. writer I've ever I mean other than. comedy writers like yourself and others, but like this is the first like. writer writer writer. >> Prose writer. >> Yeah. Prose writer, yes. >> Yeah. >> It's a little more daunting to have I. feel like I need to work harder. >> No, I think you're just going to be.

great. And I I think um. I was thinking too like, oh yeah, what. can I ask her? Um and I was torn like in. some ways I was like, well, I can't ask. her to like minister to us. So I want to be like, Anne, why is God taking only the good people? Do you know, Anne? Why is what's. happening? >> It's so funny you say that, Betty, cuz I. I feel like. my instinct is to keep saying, Anne, how. can we help help? Like, Anne, can you. tell me. >> Anne? >> And I wonder I want to ask her like,

does she get that a lot? Does she get. people saying like, Anne, tell me how to. Cuz she does minister in her own way. >> In her own way, but it it's probably. it's probably a bit tough to do on the. spot. Um can I tell you some things that. I I tried to make notes of like what I. might want to ask her. Okay. >> Incredible, Tina. Best student ever. >> you can cut any of this out cuz okay. >> Please and thank you. >> Let me see. And I got some new glasses. Check them out. >> Let's see. >> They're a little more square. >> Oh. I love them.

>> All right, let's see. Um also I had sort. of a game that I thought maybe we could. >> Look at Tina doing all the work for me. yet again. This Guys, I just this is a. This is an example of Tina's love. language. I just want to point out. You ask her to do, hey, can you jump on. for 15 minutes and Tina does research. and also offers up a game that she's. thought of. This is how she shows her. love and I am forever grateful for it. Thank you. >> Thank you for knowing that about me. This is This is my love language. Like, I'm not If I had to buy like a physical.

gift, I would struggle, but this is all. I got. >> [laughter]. >> Um as I said before, I would like her to. minister to us and let it try to help us. understand why God is only taking the. good people and leaving all the turds. behind. Um. I then I started thinking like it might. be. because she's a creative person, I. wanted to ask her some would you. rathers. >> Ooh. >> You got to say with those. Um so I'll. just bang through these and you can edit. them out as you see fit. Ann, would you. rather only be allowed to eat pasta with.

butter for the rest of your life or you. can have anything you want at any time. but all of your meals will be served on. a moving bus? >> [laughter]. >> How about that? >> [laughter]. >> I see it. If you're hungry, you have to. go down, get the bus. Oh, my lights are. going. And then you eat on the bus. Um. would you rather only be allowed to. reread books you've already read. >> Mm. [clears throat]. >> or only be allowed to read new things.

and never look back? >> Ooh, Tina, that's deep. >> Okay. And then this is the sort of the. game I was going to propose, which is. because Ann is so. open and revelatory about herself in her. writing, we feel like we know her. We. don't really know her, but there's a. game that I like to play on road trips. with my family where um you pick a. person. and then everyone uh the way your family. has to guess who someone that you know. and who they're thinking of is you have. to answer these questions like, okay, if.

this person was. a breakfast cereal, what would they be? If this person was whatever. And so I. thought what if [clears throat] you and. I like to try to answer these questions. to describe Ann, but then ask her and. see what she says. >> Oh. >> And see if we get close. >> Perfect. Okay. >> Okay. So here's the ones I had so far, which. is I started with if Ann was a color. what color would she be? I'm going to say sort of a burnt orange. >> just about to say a sunset orange.

>> There we go. Okay. >> Oh boy, let's see what she says. I hope. she gets it right. >> Because [laughter] we're right. Why am I. Look at my lights keep flickering. I got. to pay these bills. Um. if Anne was a breakfast food, what do you think she would be? >> Let's not forget she lives in. California. Um so I'm going to say like an avocado. toast. >> Okay. What would you say? >> to I'm going to say for some reason I'm. going to say sort of like a a porridge. with um probably some kind of nuts,

probably let's say a California almond. uh and uh. you know, maybe some. maybe some fruits, but I think a lot of. brown sugar, like a sneaky amount of. brown sugar. >> [laughter]. >> Like a amount of brown sugar that. renders it back to unhealthy. >> [laughter]. >> Perfect. Delicious. >> Um if Anne was a holiday uh within the. year, what would she be? >> Oh, wow. This is a good one because it. really makes you think about what.

holidays. you consider good and bad holidays. And I we've I'm sure we've talked about. this on this pod and elsewhere, but Tina. and I don't always agree about what. makes a good or bad holiday. >> I like a lot of holidays. >> Well, the the the biggest example being. Halloween. >> Right. I like Halloween. Amy does not. like Halloween. >> No, it's for children. Halloween is for children. Um I'm going to say Thanksgiving. >> Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's what I was.

going to say that, too. No, thanks I. wrote Thanksgiving, duh, obviously. [laughter]. >> Thanksgiving, duh. Okay, so she I hope. she gets that right. >> Because gratitude and community and. yeah. >> Yep. >> If Okay, what if she was a house pet? What kind of some kind of pet? >> I think it's a cat. >> Yeah. >> I wrote down a cat, also. And then I. also wrote down kind of that maybe she's. kind of like a Greek cat, the ones that. kind of mostly live outside and are. pretty self-sufficient. But they come around sometimes. Also a. little bit of a bearded dragon in that.

there's I feel like there's a stillness. There's a watch the watchful eyes. And that she is able to eat cockroaches. and still get nutrition out of it. >> Still can't believe you have a bearded. dragon in your house. You know what will. happen is eventually one morning you. will wake up and that will be bearded. dragon will be gone. >> It'll lose in the house. >> Yep. And you're going to fall asleep. looking for it and then it's going to be. on your chest over your mouth. >> [laughter]. >> sucking your spirit out.

>> Good luck. Good luck finding [laughter]. it. Uh a day of the week. What what day of. the week do you think Anne would be? >> Well, I'm going to say it might be too. on the nose, but I'm going to say. Sunday. >> Sunday. >> Yeah. >> Sunday. Come on Anne, you got to get that right. Because of faith and also I think it'll. because it's a day where you kind of. take it easy on yourself. >> So true. And you have a little bit of. Sunday blues which Anne isn't afraid of. and isn't afraid of talking about. >> True. I bang my lights to that. Yes. >> [laughter].

>> Um that was all I prepared. >> is a perfect game. This is so fun. Of. course Betty, you come with a fully. realized written game. >> Oh, god bless. >> God bless is right. Thank you for that. >> I'll see you. very soon. >> I will see you very soon. Thanks for. your time. Love you. >> Bye. Love you, too. >> Bye. >> This episode is brought to you by. Visible. Folks, it's officially summer. Whether you're planning summer travels. or staying home to watch all the action. in the villa, you need a wireless. network that keeps you connected and you.

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Terms apply. See visible.com for plan. features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by. Hilton. Did you hear Paris Hilton has. like a billion Hilton Honors points? Well, she calls them Paris points and. Hilton is helping her give them all away. this summer. Use them for that wedding. or pleasure, that's business and. pleasure, or maybe book a stay just for. sleep. As Paris would say, that's. sliving. Just make sure you're a Hilton. Honors member and follow Paris and.

Hilton on the socials to see how Paris. points can be your points. When you want. points that actually make your summer. slay, it matters where you stay. And La Mer brought me a. um a package. >> A care package. >> gosh, how are you? >> Good. >> Thank you for doing this. >> Are you [laughter] kidding? >> Can I open it now? First of all, beautifully wrapped. >> Thank you. >> Did you wrap it? >> I had a lot of trouble with it. I want. to say [laughter]. I had a lot of trouble.

>> Are you a good wrapper? >> Could I have the ribbon back? Yeah, the. ribbon's great. Unless you really want. it. >> No, the ribbon is beautiful. >> Yeah, it's my best ribbon. >> But what's the present? >> Okay, there's a bunch of things. [gasps]. What is that? Okay, that's from Mexico. That's the hand of God, but it's a. really special one because it not only. has Mother Mary, it has a baby goat. >> Oh, wow. >> Don't you love Mary? I mean, how can you. not love Mary, right? >> I want to talk about Mary. >> All right, we'll talk about Mary. I love. her. That's my favorite favorite pair of.

socks. I got them in um Paris, but. they're from Japan. I only worn them. once, but not for years. >> [laughter]. >> But I've always saved them cuz they were. so incredible. >> Yeah, you know, sometimes if you feel. worried or lonely and you put on socks. that someone gave you, they just can. change your whole day around. >> Oh, Anne, I love these. Thank you for. this. This is so nice. >> Okay, now this is really special. You. know, I hang out with a lot of sober. people and when COVID happened, the old.

ladies at my favorite women's group. started making miracle bracelets for the. young the newcomers, the women and girls. who came in who were brand new in COVID, which made everything. So, I never wear. these unless I need a miracle and that. means I'm feeling very mentally ill and. tweaked and clenched and clutch. Then I. go get a miracle bracelet and I put it. on and I think I'm going to keep my. hands off the spaceship till I hear back. from [laughter]. God or whatever she's up to tonight. And.

so then I put that on and I and I'm not. kidding, it works 100% of the time. >> This is a beautiful beaded miracle. bracelet and I will say it has a little. bit of like a Taylor Swift energy, too, which I. >> Oh, I I've never heard about Oh, this is. the best thing. Wait, wait, wait, you. have to look at the color. >> Okay. Pocket blessings by Blessings. Abound. Okay, so I'm opening up a tiny. box with what looks like a little ribbon. inside. And Anne, just to just let everybody. know again, Anne has brought me a. beautiful box of gifts and here's one. that has tiny blessings.

Oh, and it's a little blessing. It's. >> scroll. >> A little scroll. Oh, wow, a little scroll with a blessing. in it. >> Yeah. I wonder what it says. >> do you know? >> [laughter]. >> Anne knows. Oh, and it says, "You are a blessing.". Coming in real hot, Anne Lamott. Coming. in with all of these gifts. I mean, you've already given me so much. and here we are with this beautiful box. Anne Lamott is with me. Anne, I I'm so thrilled. I You know,

when I was thinking about being with you. today and thinking about what we were. going to talk about or what I should. talk to you about and all that stuff. >> [gasps]. >> I just had the moment where a moment you. would remind me to have, which is like, "Oh, don't forget you're just going to. be each other's company. >> Right. We're just hanging. >> I know. >> I know. We never got to be together. We've had this really nice friendship, but we've never been in actual touch. before. >> Yeah. >> I mean it's funny because I feel like if.

I wrote to you and said. um Amy, I'm in I need you. You'd say, "Okay.". >> Yeah. >> "What do you need?" And if you said that. to me, I'd say, "Okay, I'm there. What. do What do you need?" And I would show. up. >> I know. >> wherever you were. Isn't that funny and. we've never actually been in the same. room together. >> I feel that, too. I really do. I. >> It's funny. >> You know, you are a person who I just. said, "Will you be my friend?" And you. said, "Yes, I'd love to be your friend.". And it's a good I always love to be. reminded that I haven't met all the.

people I'm supposed to meet and I'm not. friends with all the people I'm supposed. to be friends with. And I feel like you. and your writing and the way you. >> [snorts]. >> include all of us in your life and your. world is why I feel emboldened to do. things like that. So, thank you. You are. our first author. that we've ever had on Good Hang. >> Oh, wow. >> And it means a lot to me that you're. doing this. When I talk to other actors. and performers, I feel. um.

like we're. I don't know, we're sharing a. vocabulary, but there is a there's a a. funny thing that happens with writers. where people like myself want to make. sure that we sound smart. >> I know. >> [laughter]. >> Well, I feel like, too, all the time. with everyone. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I. have to do a special draft of everything. I write where I go through and I take. out the lies and I go through and I take. out all the stuff that I just shoehorned. in so that people think I'm smarter than. I am or that I'm educated.

>> Yes. >> And then I take it and I go, "It's okay, honey. You're just where you are. It's. fine.". >> Isn't it funny we just keep doing it? Same thing with like advice. Like. someone told me one time like wait until. someone asks you for advice to give it. and no one ever asks. >> [laughter]. >> No one ever actually asks, what do you. think I should do? >> That's so hurtful. >> Well Amy, what do you think I should do? >> I think you should just keep doing what. you're doing. >> Okay. >> I feel I feel like Anne, do you get this. a lot because I I'm already feeling this.

way where people say to you, Anne tell. me like do they want you to kind of. emotionally lay hands on them and feel. and and make them feel better or. different? Do you Do you find people ask. that of you? >> A little bit, yeah. >> that like? >> Well, um you know I've I've been a. Sunday school teacher for 32 years so I. have a lot of tricks up my sleeve. I've. recently retired but I was sitting there. with my kids and it's a tiny failing. church so there might be four kids there. and they could be a four-year-old up to.

a 15-year-old, right? And I do this. thing called loved and chosen with them. and so I I might go, is there anyone. here wearing a sort of navy shirt with. pink grid on it? Well, you know how. little kids are they go. >> Yes. >> And and wave at me and I go, oh Amy, you are loved and chosen as is. Why. don't you come sit with me for a minute? And I do it with but it might be like is. anyone wearing Pokémon shoelaces, right? But that's what I just try to convey to.

people that you know you're loved and. chosen and you're exactly where you're. supposed to be and I really care and can. I get you a glass of water? >> You you reminded me of when Mr. Rogers. used to say the names at the end of his. show, remember that? And he would look. through and say and I see and he would. say all these names and you'd be kind of. awaiting to see if your name came up, if he could see you. It was such that's. an example of just like little people. and big people, they just want to be. seen. >> They just want to be seen. So do we.

>> Yeah, we all want to I mean that truly. if I was to sum up what your writing. does for me is it makes me feel less. alone, and it makes me feel seen, and it. also. gets rid of the mystery of things that I. think keeps us apart from each other. Um. I want to talk about all of that today. and all of the stuff that you've. written, and I I kind of want to start, if it's okay, with talking about the. stuff that you write currently in real. time.

all the time cuz you're here to talk. about your new book that you wrote with. your wonderful husband, Neil. What are your steps when you're working. on something where you where you're. calling yourself out, where you're where. you're taking your. >> Oh, I edit me the way I would edit you. I edit me with a lot of gentleness. I'd. say to me or you, I'd say, "You know. what, Amy, I love this, but um I think maybe it goes somewhere. else, not in this piece you just handed. me," which means it doesn't work here at. all, but I would say it in that way. And.

I would say, um it just feels a little. bit like on the first page, like you're. sort of clearing your throat a little. bit, but on page two, you start to get. into it, and that's where you caught my. You know, that's how I would talk to. you. >> Yeah. >> Now, also, I know you're parent of. sends, also, and um. you know, nothing worked, right, but. bribes and threats. I mean, >> [laughter]. >> anything else? No. Bribes and threats. So, I'll say, "Okay, Annie, if you write. this one passage, um we're going to stop and and go for a.

walk. We're going to stop and watch MS. Now. We're going to stop and have a half. a sandwich.". >> Yeah. >> You know, and um. >> Treats at the end. >> And threats. If you don't. >> [laughter]. >> And so, I'm strict and friendly with. myself um when I'm working and writing, and I do a lot of bribes and threats, and um and somehow, you know, and then I. write incredibly terrible first drafts, and then I go back and I take out half. >> Yeah. >> I take out half. And that part's so.

painful. I don't know if it's the same. with you as a comedian, but it's like. you hate to just lose something, you. know, that you you loved and thought. really worked for a writer. >> you think anything works, it usually. goes away. Like it's always like, "Oh, that's the best joke." And it never. makes the movie, never makes the sketch. because you just you've become so. attached to it. You're just like in love. with it. And then someone goes, "Well, you could lose this first piece." And. you're like, "My favorite joke?". >> I know. We can't be friends anymore. I.

know. Well, Jessica for the great writer. from Oakland said you have to kill your. little darlings. And you have to go. through and all those lines I used to. try to get you to think something about. me. Like that I'm smarter than, better. than, more ironic, more anything. I just. have to cut cuz then I'm going to hand. it to my husband, my current husband. Neil Allen, and he is going to notice it. And he's. going to say, "You just don't need. this." And he's going to mark it. So, it's better just to do it before. >> Now, you refer to Neil as your current. husband. Why? >> husband. He's also my first husband.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah. I I got married 3 days after I. started getting Social Security. >> I cannot wait to talk to you about that. because the way you write about and have. shared your feeling about partnering up. in later in life is like. I've I've gotten so much from it. But. before we get there, >> [laughter]. >> um I discovered you with Hard Laughter. Which was that your first book? >> It's my first book. That was 45 years. ago. >> Wow. How old were you when you wrote.

that book? >> 24 when I I was 24 when I sold it. I. think I was 25 when I published it. Yeah, I mean, it was just an amazing. break, you. >> How what was that How did you get that. first break? How did you go from writing. and what and being published? >> Um. well, my dad's agent had always agreed. to represent me if I ever wrote anything. representable. My dad was a well-known. writer. And uh I kept sending her these stories. And you know what they do before you. kind of hit before you really come up. with something.

This is like when a kid makes you. something like an ashtray out of clay. with a dent for the cigarettes to sit. on. They go, "Did you make that?" So. much so that I was like, "Oh, did you. make that?" [laughter] And they were. just terrible. And then my dad got sick, which as you know from Hard Laughter, he. got a metastasized melanoma in his brain. and we knew he wasn't going to make it. cuz no one ever had yet in '77. And um So I started writing about how a. family stays afloat when you know an.

anvil has dropped on the family, when. the center of the of the family is not. going to be there forever. And a lot of. it was that we were laughing, you know? And it was black gallows humor. And I've. always said that laughter is carbonated. holiness. If you're laughing in a really. tough patch of time, you're on holy. ground. And my brothers are funny and. and I want to try to love letter to my. dad so he would know how my brothers and. I felt about him. And so I changed it a.

bit in that there was always a little. bit of hope in the novel that he was. going to be okay, which we knew he. wasn't. And I sent off six chapters and. um my agent. loved it. And it was really rough. >> Yeah. >> And you know it's just like she saw the. diamond in the rough or something, you. know? And she showed it to an editor at. Viking, Cork Smith, and he loved it. It was the strangest thing. >> were writing it while your dad was ill,

right? >> And I finished it and sold it by the. while his brain was still working. The. last 8 months or so he was really not. very functional, but he um you know. called me to tell me and had read it and. loved it. And I mean that was like the. great miracle of my life. >> Wow. >> Yeah. But um. the first two reviews I got. were pre-pub reviews, Publishers Weekly. and Kirkus, and I got them in the mail. I mean, I don't know if your audience is. even familiar with waiting for mail to.

find out news about your career and your. finances, but I got these in the mail. from my agent and they just were. terrible reviews. They just said, "We. hate her. She's right about thinking. she's a loser as demonstrated in this. new novel.". >> So, you get your first terrible reviews. and you have to make a decision there. about what you're going to do with them. What do you do with them? Where do you. put them? >> Well, then there were then then I got. there was a it was amazing. Well, luckily I was still drinking at the. time. >> [laughter].

>> So, I got through that and then. by I didn't have a cent literally in the. world, but by hook and by crook and by. good friends, I got the money together. to go to New York for publication. And. Anne Tyler, one of my favorite writers. to this day, wrote this rave in the New. York Times Book Review. >> Wow. >> So, right. So, then then you think I've. arrived. [laughter] I'm the queen of the. hill. I'm the total princess of all the. earth. And then, of course, the next. thing you get a bad one. >> Totally.

I was reading a something you wrote um. and I shared it with my friends just the. other day cuz you do often engage with. the world and you kind of like tell us. like I know it's bad out there. You do. the opposite of gaslighting which is. like. >> [sighs]. >> here's the bad things that happened this. week. I saw it, too. What should we do. about it? And the what should we do. about it is never anything that feels I.

don't know. It just feels simple and. right and real and we're all kind of. working it out together. Would you mind reading something that. you wrote? Okay. So, it's just this So, it was this little section here because. I wanted to ask you about it. It it it. was when you were 68 and you were. writing about that year. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. But turning 68 means. you weren't born yesterday. Turning 68. means you've seen what you've seen. Ukraine, Sandy Hook, the permafrost,

Marjorie Taylor Greene. By 68, you have. seen dear friends literally ravaged by. cancer, lost children, unspeakable. losses. The midterms are coming up. My. mind is still open. My dog died. Really, to use the theological terms, it. is just too freaking much. And regrettably, by 68, one is both. seriously uninterested in a vigorous. debate on the existence of evil or even.

worse, a pep talk. So, what does that leave? Glad you. asked. The answer is simple. A few very. best friends with whom you can share. your truth. That's the main thing. By. 68, you know that the whole system of. our lives works because we are not all. nuts on the same day. You call someone. and tell them that you hate everyone and. all of life and they will be glad you. called. They felt that way 3 days ago. and you helped pull them out of it by.

making them laugh or a cup of tea, you. took them for a walk for a walk or to. Target. >> The idea that we're all not nuts on the. same day, I mean, talk about a blessing and it is exactly. what we're still dealing with right now, which is like, what do we do? The world. just keeps spinning out of control. Things just feel darker and darker and. darker. What do we do? We make each other tea. >> We make each other tea and we try to. shine a little brighter by, you know, we. laughter shines us up a bit. Um and so.

goodness and um. um fresh air and radical self-care. You. know, you might binge on on Below Deck. or or um don't tell anyone but People. magazine. always right and radical self-care you. do what you would do with a close friend. you know and you with a close friend if. she is in even worse shape than you are. you're the one that says I'm on my way. I'll be there in 15 minutes bring your. wallet.

>> I mean we we. I talk a lot about it a lot here and. just kind of show by example all of the. friends that give so much to me and that. I feel so proud to be. a part of their group but. I feel like female friendship is. >> It's different. >> It's different. Why is it different. Anne? What what. >> Well, it's different because we're we. have always been so much more emotional. and truth-telling than men they weren't. raised to tell the truth they were. raised to look good you know they were. raised to seem or be powerful or to.

amass more prestige and power and money. and whatever and we understood I mean. women our bodies are messy or the work. of women is messy with the you know in. the Christian tradition with the last at. the cross and the first at the cave you. know and we're we're there for birth and. death and we're comfortable we get. comfortable with it you know. I was literally saved by girlfriends the. way other people are saved by Jesus or. Buddha and I mean that literally I was. literally saved by chapter books too and.

I mean that literally I meant it meant. that no matter what the world threw at. with me I could still be with Shelly. Adams tomorrow when I'm 6 years old and. I'm 72 soon and Shelly Adams and I still. walk two or three times a week and when. I when the world has just thrown all. this horrible bleak stuff at me and get. in bed with Anne Tyler or Barbara. Kingsolver and there's going to be truth. and there's going to be laughter and. there's going to be insight and there's. going to be it's going to comfort my. entire soul and um and I feel that and I.

love a lot of men writers a lot of men. and I've been influenced them. but I turn to women writers for truth. and comfort. >> Yes. >> do. >> I I feel the same and I and I think. you're like I feel like. by reading your writing over the years. I've also got to walk with your friends. Like I you bring your friends in your. work a lot and you do that wonderful. thing that is so loving which is. cuz to me teasing is kind of a love. language. >> Mhm. >> And the way you tease when your friends.

tell you the the truth. Like when you. talk about Horrible Bonnie for example. Like could you who could you speak about. Horrible. >> Horrible Bonnie was my mentor when I. first got sober which was in 1986. And I always called her Horrible Bonnie. because no matter what I had on my mind. when I called her and it might be. disgusting like for a new drunk barely. sober woman and she'd always say, "Oh dearest, I am so glad you called.". And then she would say everything was.

going to sort out at the end which is. what John Lennon says. John Lennon says. everything will work out in the end. If. it doesn't look okay, it's not the end, you know? And so Mary Baker Eddy, the. mother of all new thought of Eckhart. Tolle and Marianne Williamson, everybody. says that but Bonnie would say it in. this loving mother grandmother voice. And at first I go, "Oh no, I don't think. you're you know, I think I don't think. you understand that the complexity of. that." And she would just say, "I know, darling.". And so I always called her Horrible. Bonnie cuz she'd always ruin my bad.

moods and she'd always make me have. hope and faith again. And that when. you're with people that help you. understand that it's the inside person. that just needs to feel to connect with. their loving sweet generous heart. That. is literally what heaven on earth is. like is when you connect with how. generous your heart is even though your. mind is like, you know, cranky and. cringy and trying to figure out who to. blame. In my case, I think you're fine. but in my case usually the default step.

is to figure out to who to blame. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right? >> Oh, yeah. >> And then I can relax. >> Oh, I mean and also, you know, I don't. know about you but of the two emotions. anger and hurt, I'd much rather be angry. than hurt. >> Oh, yeah. >> I mean, angry all the way. >> All the way. >> So, I'd much rather be mad than sad. >> Oh, of course. >> Sad's the Sad is is not where I want to. live. >> No. So, let me tell you what is in. between those I think and it's one of. the things I wrote down. What keeps. happening when we feel that separation.

from like if we're. hot if we've been hurt or if we've. gotten a bad review or we've gotten the. you know, neglected or or kind of blown. off or whatever, paradoxically. what I feel and what I think a lot of. the women I'm close to have felt, you. just go into that shame spiral, right? Instead of just crying or feeling grief. >> Yeah, so tell people what Operating. Instructions for people who haven't read. it is about. >> Well, okay. I Let me go back and say.

when my dad got sick, I did what you do. You go to the library and you look for. books by people you respect who have. been through a similar circumstance and. you read how they got through it. It's. our only hope mine most of the time. And. but there were no books in the 70s about. cancer because it was unseemly. That you. didn't talk about death or dying. >> Yeah. >> You know, it was just like whoa, what a. buzzkill, right? And so when I had a. baby, I went to the library to find. books and I was single and I was broke. and all as usual. And.

there was just nothing about the fact. that it can be so boring. >> Yeah. >> And I had an infant and pretty soon the. infant got colic and I would started. right I started keeping this journal. And I like I'd write things like that. one night just strung out on that. exhaustion. It's unbelievable. I thought. about wrapping up my baby really. carefully in blankets and putting him on. the porch for the night just so I could. get one night's sleep cuz you know it's.

like put your own oxygen mask on first. and no one had written stuff like that. yet or I had written at one point I. thought he had gone down and I could cry. with my love for him and then I wrote oh. God now he's raised his loathsome. reptilian head and no one had written. that before that's right and so people. were like oh my God so then the next. book after that was my first writing. book which was called bird by bird. >> Right. >> So it went from that to bird by bird and. then I think I wrote some more novels.

>> Now. and the thing about operating. instructions and I remember reading it. before I had kids and you didn't I. didn't understand I I understood later. what you were actually really talking. about about that. that those early times when you feel. sleep deprived and like the only one. getting it wrong and all that stuff. You. write what you did. it's still transgressive still to say. I'm not completely and madly in love. I'm actually really stressed out and.

I'm not feeling the bliss I'm supposed. to feel or I don't think I'm doing it. right or. there's still this. crazy amount of pressure for young. mothers to have to instantly be in love. with the new role that they have. >> The shame of being a parent is just. something that just hadn't been talked. about at all. >> Even the realization that your parents. are people is a relatively new idea that. your that your mother is a was a girl. and that your your parents are people.

It's not that old of a thought. Yeah. >> Yeah it's true. So then I wanted to do the same thing. with writing because all existent. writing books said if you did certain. things probably an outline and this and. that and the other that it things would. go well and you would almost certainly. sell your book and then you would have. really really good self-esteem all the. time. >> Mhm. >> And I wanted to say, um, this is how I. do it. I sit down and it goes badly most. days. I sit down.

with the bad self-esteem and the raging. ego ping-pong game and I start writing. and it's awful. It's unreadable. It's. god awful, but I have a secret. I keep. my butt in the chair and I know to write. really terrible first drafts. I know and. a lot of writing students don't believe. that the writers they love most in the. world, the books they love most in the. world began as god awful, overly long, purple prose first drafts. >> But Anne, do you ever find other writers.

pushing back on the idea or your ideas. of that? Because when you say that, what. you're doing is you're opening up you're. like, you know, people always believe. there's some kind of special room. >> Right. >> that only certain people are allowed to. go into and there's certain vocabulary. that keeps people out of the room. And. when you open up the door and say, "Come. into the room." or "Here's how we do it. here." other people that are in the room. don't always like it. >> Right. >> Do you ever feel that or did you ever. feel that when you were first writing. about writing? >> Almost everyone I've talked to ever.

about writing has said, "Oh, that's the. same with me. Yeah, but I just keep my. butt in the chair and I bribe use bribes. and threats." Now, it's funny because. yesterday Nate Silver, the legendary. Nate Silver, out of nowhere, not. referencing me, said, "People talk. about, um, writing first drafts and and. that it's okay, um, not to get it right. as you're going." So, I find that a. great waste of time or something like. that. [laughter]. And I thought, "Well, that must be so. nice. >> Yeah, to have a fully formed. >> to be have to be have a fully formed. thing. It's like when right-wing.

Christians tell you what the truth is. and you think, "God, that just must be. so nice to be so sure of yourself." Like. I never am. >> Yeah, and like no one ever is. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, okay, you you you you talk about. right-wing Christians and Christianity. and we've talked a lot about. spirituality and. uh. you did you find your faith through. sobriety? Is that when you became. >> my faith drunk. I'd always believed in God and my.

parents were atheists so we were and I. know you were raised Catholic and that. that's a very beautiful way to have been. raised. I mean some issues. >> [laughter]. [laughter]. >> Yeah, but um. >> Where did you first find God as a as an. adult? >> I was living across this I was on a. houseboat literally twice the size of. this table with a sleeping loft in. Sausalito and and on I would be so. hungover and I'd walk across the street. to. um this flea market that was in this um.

economically totally deprived place. where the crack epidemic had taken place. mostly people of color six churches in a. place of 2,000 people so and there was. this cuz when you're hungover you want. kind of greasy food and a lot of coffee. and. um and I would hear music from the civil. rights movement coming out of this one. ramshackle church with this horrible. uh [snorts]. Charlie Brown Christmas tree out in.

front of pine tree that you know it. looked like Bertrand Russell at the end. and um but I could hear this music. coming and I'd been raised on civil. rights music and and on Joan Baez and. the Weavers and um Pete Seeger and I. knew all the words and sometimes I think. grace means you've just run out of any. more good ideas and I'd run out of any. more good ideas. I'd tried everything. I. tried to stick to four or five social. drinks and the non-habit forming. marijuana on a one and [laughter] and. some pills and one day at a time and I.

couldn't. So I finally went and I sat down in this. church. and the thing was they know there's like. 30 or 40 people same church that I've. been at all these 41 years now and they. didn't. try to hustle me. They didn't try to get. me to sign on or to come to Bible study. or to figure out anything or to figure. out who shot the Holy Ghost. They just. could see I was desperate and lonely.

That's the GOD acronym of the gift of. desperation. And I sat there and I was. like. desperate but like crabby. You know. >> Yeah. >> And I couldn't relate to people but they. got me water. I always left before the. sermons cuz I didn't want too much of. the Jesus stuff. >> Yeah. >> And then little by little it just ground. me down. Little by little I started. staying and I just always got and I got. while I was drinking and trying to be. other religions that.

Jesus was a sweet sweet shepherd, you. know, and he just and he had this. incredible mother. and that it was the ultimate as is. program and that as I was which was. horrible and messy and promiscuous and. nuts although charming. I mean I had a. perfect life. I had I had um three books. published. I was well known in the my. everybody I love lived in my county, my. mom, my brothers, my cousins and but my.

insides were like Swiss cheese and. little by little I could kind of bear. the Jesus part. >> Mhm. >> And um and so I started sticking around. and one day I was walking to my. houseboat on the along the dock. and I just this going to sound like I'm. crazy but. I could just feel him. and I could feel him like if a little. cat a little stray cat was running. alongside me and I didn't want a little. stray cat and all my friends are. progressive activists. They all worked. at Mother Jones at the time and it was.

like I was kind of kicking the little. cat away go I cuz you feed a little. stray cat you it's not a stray cat. anymore. You probably own a cat now, right? I'm not stupid. So, but then I. finally just stopped and I don't this. was grace, which is spiritual WD-40, you know, with. that long thin red straw. That's and it. squirted me and I just said, "Okay, fine. Come on in.". >> So, has it changed now that you that. little cat came? What What is that What.

How is your. faith changed? Like I think for people. when they think about faith, I think. sometimes they think of it like an a. bank account that just, you know, like. an account that gets bigger and bigger. Like you get more and more and more. faithful. >> Yeah. >> Is that how it works? Does it go away. and come back? Does the cat go away. sometimes and come back? Does it. How does it change? >> because I I do the work, you know, I do. the practice and I study and. >> And the practice keeps it. >> And the cat I do I read the Bible a. little bit every morning and my friends.

believe in God and a lot of them believe. in Jesus and in a non-annoying way and. >> [laughter]. >> And um. I just that has I mean, my best friend. died as you know from Operating. Instructions when I was not that sober. >> And And how old were you again, Annie? >> When she died? >> Yeah. How old was she and you? >> 37. I think I was 37, too. And I got. sober when I was 32 and I had a two year. three year old. you know, two year old and um and it was. very, very scary and I wrote about it a.

lot in Operating Instructions, but you. know, I I don't have an interesting or. sophisticated theological no different. than that day with the stray cat. I have. the theological understanding like a. really bright second grader, you know, and I I don't have conversa-. I'm not asked to have conversations. about the triune nature of the deity, you know? People will say, "I can't feel. God anymore. I can't feel God right. now." And I'll say, "Oh, good. Why don't.

you sit down? Let's have a cup of tea. Or do you want to go You want to go. shopping? You want to go for a walk? Or. do you want to lie down on the couch. with me?". And so, I don't have um interesting. um intellectual answers about faith. I. just can feel it it's truth in me. I. just feel it in my heart. It's like I. have a heart cave, and in it is my. little one, my little Annie that I. always was, and and my big old Annie, and and Jesus and Mary. And I can just. feel them in my.

for whatever reason, I just let it go at. that. >> Yeah. I mean, it even my question is. interesting that I'm realizing because I. think there's like this idea that. there's some deep second chamber, third. chamber to all of it, right? Like that. there's some Like did you get to level. 10? >> I didn't. >> [laughter]. >> I didn't. >> I mean, there is none. I mean, that's. the That's the big um. thing you find out in every department. of life, which is like you think there's. some secret room where all the cooler.

people, smarter people, more evolved. people are, and there isn't. >> isn't. There's just where we are, where. our butts are, where our hearts are. I. know. Well, um yeah, I keep it very. simple. I keep it very practical. Can I ask you something? >> Yes. >> Do you think this is going okay? >> Oh my god, I think this is going great. >> Oh, okay, good. >> Let's ask Jenna though. She's listening, Jenna. >> Okay, good. >> this is going great. >> Oh, okay, good. >> And thank you for asking that, and I. love that you asked that because what I. wanted to say about we like.

you are willing to kind of keep check. You you keep checking in. >> Yeah. >> Like it's important to check in, but. that is. that's not always easy to do to check in. to like kind of put dip your toe into. the Like there's the way in which we can. like kind of all live in our worlds of. I don't know, our comfort comfortable. worlds, and then we kind of sometimes. especially when we get older, I know for. myself, have to kind of force ourselves. to get uncomfortable. Like we We comfort. is really nice. >> Right. Right. But you also discover that.

it's in the discomfort and the dark. nights of the soul that the growth and. the healing happens. Because I would be. 4'7" if I had had anything to do with. how how I was going to grow. I don't. like discomfort. I don't like growing. pains. I don't like mess. It makes me. crazy. I've been sober 40 years and I. have discovered that that is where it's. going to happen. It's like I'm not And. Jesus doesn't have a magic wand and tap. you on the head and say, "Go forth, little one." You know, be happy and. joyful.

Um but Jesus uh and Jesus in the. distressing form of other people usually. sits down next to you shoulder to. shoulder and says, "You know, I can just. sit here for as long as you need and. we'll breathe together and things will. change.". >> So, do you believe this idea of like. other other difficult people are gurus. for you? You know, that you when. someone's like, "Oh, he's your guru. She's your guru." Like this horrible. person is in your life for some reason. >> I feel that later. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> I can tell when I'm really uncomfortable.

cuz somebody's annoying me or um or they. just seem so stupid or so wrong. I can. tell that something good is going to. come of it in me. Um but I'm not I don't want to sit next. to them at the table. And um it's like. in in one of the many 12-step programs. I'm in this there's one for people with. tiny control issues. They use the word. intimacy to mean into me I see. >> Mhm. >> And when I have that feeling of I'm. seeing in me, I don't love it. I'm not. avoiding the beautiful, generous, silly,

playful I'm avoiding the parts that is. scared that are scared and judgmental. that endless judgment. >> [snorts]. >> And but you know, you if you want to. heal it, you've got to reveal it. And as. soon as I can see it and I share it with. my best girlfriend, I start to get. better. You know, people say, "Oh, let. go and let God." And I just want to. poke them in the forehead with a plastic. fork like they're a baked potato because. if I could have let go and let God, I. definitely would have, trust me. >> Well, that's when people say like, "Oh,

you just have to feel your feelings.". And I'm like, "You got to be kidding. me.". >> Oh, stop. >> Please. Like that I'm like there's got. to be another way. >> Yeah. >> than actually feeling your feelings. >> No, definitely. But reveal it sharing it. with a friend because then you at some. point you start laughing. Maybe you cry. cuz a person saying, "You know, I have. that exact same thing and I have a lot. of shame around it." And it's a kind of. short core shame that you might be. disgusting or not okay. It's not truth,

though. >> Yeah. >> It's not truth. It's something that like. my husband Neil and we need to segue to. Neil in a minute, but he does this work. with. >> Anne. She's just like quietly. controlling this interview. >> Well, I know. I don't want I don't want. >> Are you kidding me? There's There's. nothing I love more than a woman and a. woman who's a little older than me who I. respect having control of this. interview. >> Okay, good. >> Let's talk about Neil. >> Okay. >> Can you tell everyone your meet cute? How did you meet? >> Well, we met on Match. And um match.com Well, there's a match.

um wing for older people. I forgot what. it was called. Uh OurTime. >> Mhm. >> And um but I'm pretty well known in the. Bay Area and. >> And And had you Had you dated before. this? >> a man for 6 years and I hadn't been with. anyone for a couple years. >> Okay. >> Yeah, and um yeah, I'd been in. relationships so for about never gotten. married. And then um. so I was I I decided I would learn to. date cuz I had never had to date. You. just Certainly when you're drinking, you. don't have to date. You just know you're.

going to be with this person and they. have cocaine or they have money or they. have a car or they can get your. cigarette lit, you know, or whatever. And um after I got sober, I just didn't. know how to date, but I always kind of. knew who like the next hostage was going. to be, you know? And you didn't know how. to like sit down and so and coffee and. get to know him. So, I decided I wrote a. piece that's online you can find it if. you put Anne Lamott and match.com. I had. a terrible year of dating. Like I dated. this one guy who had this Beavis and. Butt-Head laugh and I had to sit through.

the whole coffee and I was just going. like that guy in the Three Stooges going. >> [laughter]. >> I was like that and but people were men. were bringing me manuscripts, stuff like. that. >> Oh, wow. God, yeah. >> And one man said on right before our. third date said, "Is it too soon to. bring you a plot treatment?" And I said, "Yeah, a little bit." And I never saw. him again. But so, I learned how to date. and I learned a lot about who I am and. what I needed. This what I wanted my.

whole life was a man who, if he were a. woman, would be my very best girlfriend, my ultimate best girlfriend. I'd never. had that. I'd always had it I've been. with a really, really nice man and I'd. but it wasn't he wouldn't have been my. best girlfriend cuz he didn't have the. depth and the kind of the layers, the. archaeological layers that a woman or. the lasagna that a woman's being would. would present as. And so, then I saw this tall, handsome guy on. um.

match on our time and he was spiritual. and he I thought overeducated and um but. he seemed like he had a nice sense of. humor. So, I wrote to him. And we wrote a little back and forth. Well, it turned out he's allergic to. cats and I have a cat and I live for the. cat. For me it goes Jesus, the cat, everyone else, right? And so, [laughter]. I thought, "Well, I can't I My grandson. lives with us so I couldn't be with. somebody who was allergic to the cat cuz. I'd have to go to his house all the time. and I basically don't like to leave my.

house.". >> Yeah. >> And so, I um so, we sort of it didn't. turn into anything. About 4 months. later, I saw this really attractive man. with beautiful. um face and a profile and I wrote and I. said, "Oh, I love your profile." And he. wrote back, "You already rejected me. I. think I'm not Jesus-y enough." And I. wrote back, "I could care less how. Jesus-y you are. It was just the cat.". And he said, "Well, I have lived with. cats. I'm violently allergic, but if you. put brewer's yeast in their kibble, after a week, I won't be very allergic.

to the cat." And I thought, >> That's a trick? >> It's a trick. That's a hack. And so, I. thought he was just either trying to get. me to do whatever, or he needed. [laughter] an agent or something. And we. got together, and and we've never been. apart for a single day, unless one of us. has been out of town. And that was. coming up on 10 years ago. >> Wow. >> So, that was how we met cute. Now, I'm. going to segue into. >> And I love that. >> that. I know. >> And he would be my best girlfriend. >> Yeah, he would. He just loves He loves.

to chat. He You guys have shared. interests. He loves He doesn't He loves. the bigness of you. He does You don't. have to dim your light around him. >> And he loves God, and it's not quite the. same, but it's uh you know, it's so much. the same. >> But is that true that you wouldn't have. minded if he didn't love God? >> have been hard for me if he didn't have. God in his life, cuz it would have been. like not speaking English, but his um. like [laughter] his what he is is I. would say more Eastern. >> Uh-huh. >> He has more Eastern traditions in him,

but one of us will be writing. He's a. very accomplished writer, and he'll he. might come in and say, "Can we talk. about spirit?" And I'll go, "Yeah." And. he'll write down Or all muse, it's me. saying, "Can we talk about Can we talk. about the soul?". >> Mhm. >> And and then I'll scribble down. everything he says, and then steal it. all. Or he'll do the same. And so, we. have this We jam. You know, we do these. endless jams and riff, because. it On the first or second first date, I. think we both found out how much time. we'd both spent with dying people. He.

was a hospice volunteer, and I've had. many, many people who have died, and. I've been with many people, cuz their. families have asked me in cuz I'm not. afraid of it, you know, cuz I went. through it with my dad and Pammy and a. lot of people by now and we talked about. that. Well, who can you talk to like a. date and it when he said, "Oh, yeah, I'm. a hospice volunteer." I went, "You've. got to be kidding.". >> You're like a. >> And then we both wanted we both had. decided we wanted to play. Ripple at our memorial services. >> [laughter]. >> And so then 3 years later he asked me to.

marry him and we played Ripple for our. processional. >> I mean. it's so. get get get kind of getting back to what. we said in the beginning. It's so it's such a good reminder to. remember that we have not met all the. people we're supposed to meet. We have. not loved all the people we're supposed. to love. Like life is still like if we. are lucky enough to be talking today. like I know. Like I I thought about this thing when I. woke up today that that I haven't. hanging in my house and I thought of you. which is that Dolly very famous Dolly.

Lama quote like every morning when you. wake up think to yourself, "I am so. fortunate to have woken up. I have one. precious life." Like it's just basically. like if you are still around you're. still around. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> So you and Neil wrote a book. good writing and the book is about you. know. >> good writing. >> Yeah, about kind of like it's I really. like it because it is it's like Neil's. um very smart and helpful ways to get.

your sentences better and then Anne. comes in to say. >> Wait a. >> reminds me of something and wait a. second. It's like listening to a. conversation. >> Yeah, it is a conversation. >> Yeah, yeah. >> The subtitle of good writing is 36 rules. to improve your sentences and Neil had. them on our first date and I've been. teaching writing since before Milton. Berle, you know, >> [laughter]. >> and as my father would say and. and he had these rules cuz he was a. journalist for 10 years at the Bergen. County Record and they were all rules.

like like uh, you know, like layer your. sentences, um bring in sense bring in. the sense take out the boring stuff. I. forgot what rule it is, but you know, write from good verbs. You don't need to. say Amy walked across the studio. You'd. say Amy staggered across the studio. Amy. tiptoed, Amy sl- Amy slunk across the. studio. Amy danced, you know, and and. they were all brilliant rules. So, then. about 2 years ago he said, "Oh, I'm. turning those rules into a book." I. said, "Oh, that's great." So, wonderful. writer. So, he wrote sort of meditations.

on each of the rules. And then I became. and then I became convinced that. somewhere in this book there was a place. for me and I sort of tugged on his. shoulder one day and said, "You know, I. know something about [laughter]. writing.". And um. >> I wrote a very successful. >> I wrote a book once and um and I said, "I'd really love to annotate your rules, you know, enlighten it up a little." I. mean, his rules are great. And so, I. would come in and then I'd write my. meditations which would frequ-. frequently point out that he is.

overeducated and there are rules that I. think people can ignore and instead in. my experience what might work better is. >> Well, I like your the challenger in me. likes. the idea of like someone having a rule. and then someone getting to poke the. rule. Like and a and a good rule it it. can can stand the poking. >> Totally. >> Okay, we do this thing on the pod where. we ask somebody who is a friend of yours. or a fan of yours or someone who loves.

your work. or or loves our guest to ask them a. question. And I really thought about who. to ask for this. And. I realized I'm like, I should just ask. my old friend because my old friend Tina. Fey is a huge fan of you. >> Oh, she is. >> And she's an incredible writer. She's. one of the best writers I know and her. and I have talked about you and your. books and your writing. And so, Tina and. I were talking about you just I hope. your ears were burning in a good way. We.

were talking well behind your back. And. we were we were talking about the ways. in which your book provides comfort and. have your books your work your posts all. of it feel like it is a way in which in. in a world with so little comfort. That. you keep doing that for us and we're so. grateful for it. And. women pass around your work. Like what I imagine. They did with medicine back in the day.

It's really special. and I'm thrilled that she wanted to. talk about you and and to me about you. So she had some questions for you. Tina was like. wanted me to give you some would you. rather? Would you rather only eat pasta. with butter for the rest of your life or. you can have anything you want to eat at. anytime but all of your meals have to be. served on a moving bus. >> Um pasta. >> Okay, would you rather be allowed to.

reread books you've read and be that be. the only thing that you're allowed to. read or only new things and never look. back. >> I read only books I've read and loved. >> Okay. Um. We have answered some of these for you. You tell hopefully you'll get it right. And if you were a color what color would. you be? >> Lavender. >> Oh, we both got it wrong. We both said. the same color. >> you say? >> We both said like a orange like a sunset.

orange or a burnt orange. >> I don't look good in that color. I only. like colors that I look good in. >> Okay, that's true. Tina we got it wrong. So lavender. Okay. If you were a breakfast food, what do. you think you would be? >> Oatmeal. >> Yeah, she nailed it. Tina said some kind. of porridge. >> Yeah, I love oatmeal. >> If you were a holiday, what would you. be? >> I love Easter. >> I knew we should have picked that one. >> Yeah, I heard a great line or read it. somewhere it said. we are Easter people living in a Good. Friday world and I love that so much cuz.

it's such a Good Friday world. It's so. >> What does that mean a Good Friday world? >> Good Friday world is where they. crucified Christ and it's dark and the. sky turns black and there's no hope. anywhere and all we see is power and. evil and corruption and cruelty. And then 2 days later we see the spring, we see resurrection, we see new life. >> Mhm. >> So um. you know the. cross looked like a big win for the. Romans and then 2 days later no, it's. Jesus and Mary going we're okay, you're.

okay, come with us. >> Yeah. Okay. Um what kind of house pet would you be? >> A cat. >> Yeah, we got that right. >> Yeah. >> A specific kind of cat? >> No. >> And what is the best What do you love. about cats? >> I just love that it's like having a. little monkey living at your house and. they're so pathetically needful of your. love even though they pretend [laughter]. >> Oh yeah, my cat is an embarrassment. She. is so desperate for and also she's stand. offish and I mean depending on their.

mood they're yeah, but um I just I. always had cats and I always knew that. if I could find the cat I was going to. be okay, I wasn't alone anymore. >> Mhm, yeah. I cats. >> Dogs are too easy. I mean dogs love I'm. not going to name names but dogs love. anyone. >> But cats you don't know where they are. >> No, it's awful. >> And I don't like that. I want I want to. know. >> that in one of these books about I was. going to get buttons made that said the. kitten is not dead, the kitten is in the. living room because [laughter] I went.

through the kitten is dead with Neil and. he and he kept saying no, the kitten's. not dead, the kitten's hiding, the. kitten's probably in the living room. Yeah. >> The hiding is stressful for me. >> a nightmare. >> I like I like the pet that comes to. comes out to greet you. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But I understand. And then what day of. the week would you be? >> I love Sunday mornings. Not cuz I'm going to church, because. it's Sunday morning and it's the Sabbath. and you are commanded to to to do as. little as possible. And I believe rest.

is a sacred act. And I, you know, it's. the end of the week and it's just such a. luxurious warm blanket of a day for me. >> And and as the people that are. listening, like Sunday blues is a real. thing and it's definitely a thing when I. have kids getting ready for Monday for. school. Like that that feeling of dread. We talked about it a little bit. How do. you. Can you give us all, as as I'm I'm. asking you to do this even though I I. you don't want to put you on the spot, but like this feeling, like what do you. do with your dread? How do you break it.

apart so it doesn't get so big and and. and snowball into something big? >> I do a lot of breath work and I pray. I. do breath work and I pray. And I um call. a girlfriend. or I go find Neil or my son and I say, "Do you have a minute?" And then I say, "What's going on?" And as soon as you. share it with someone, it's lessened. That's the only way I've ever been able. to let go is to share it with somebody. >> Yeah. >> And then it gets so much it's dilutes. it.

>> Mhm. It's so true. And so and it it always. goes back to that simple thing of like. just not trying to go in your space. capsule and take care of it by yourself. >> Right. Figure it out is a terrible. slogan. It's a terrible slogan. And and breath is. >> [snorts]. >> Holy Spirit and breath is life. >> Mhm. >> And uh and I pray. I say, you know, I. wrote a book called Help Thanks Wow, the. three essential prayers. And I'm usually. saying one of them. Help me. Help me. I. am in a hole too deep to get myself out.

of. Or I'm going, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you that you. got me out of that hole. Thank you." Or. I'm stepping outside and going, "Wow. It's so beautiful in the world. It's so. fresh and blue and the and things are. starting to bloom in California. The. paper whites are blooming and um so I'm. always saying one of those three. prayers. >> Yeah. >> They always work. >> Oh. Well, I'm going to say wow back to you, Anne. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for doing this. You're so I.

mean I I. I'm just Thank you for my presents. >> You're welcome. Yeah. >> Thank you for my hand. >> Yeah, with Mary and the goat. >> Give it up for Mary. Shout out to Mary. >> Shout out to Mary. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Shout out to Mary, the original pop. star. >> Right. Right. Who's who told that little boy. Diego, "Don't be afraid. I'm here." And. that's what she says now. She says it to. us both right now. "Don't be afraid. I'm. here. You're okay.". >> Oh, Anne Lamott, thank everybody.

Thank you for being here. Thank you. It. means so much. Thank you, Anne Lamott, so much for. joining us. And for today's Polar. Plunge, I feel like I feel compelled to. to say what Anne would say, which is to. remind you. that. good behavior and good action can be. small and tender. It doesn't have to be. a giant I don't know, sweeping gesture. So. on behalf of Anne's good works and in an.

attempt to just kind of I don't know. put a drop of goodness, a molecule of. goodness back in the world. maybe. mow your neighbor's lawn or shovel their. driveway or leave a gift for them. Maybe put a little gift on your. neighbor's porch today. Cookies that you. made. I don't know. And write from your. secret admirer. But that might be weird, so don't do it like that. But you know. what I mean. Just do something for your. neighbor. Think about people around you. Do.

something small. As Anne would say, give. them water. Give them a cup of tea. Say hello to people who perhaps haven't. been said hello to today. And always reminds me to do that. I'll. do the same and pass it on. Thanks for. listening to Good Hang. See you soon. Bye. >> You've been listening to Good Hang. The. executive producers for this show are. Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, [music] and me, Amy Poehler. The show is. produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack. Wilson, Kat Sviland, [music] Kaya.

McMullen, and Aleia Zineris. For Paper. Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel. Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original. music by Amy Miles. >> I don't know if I ever want to want a. really [music]. good hang.