Putin could turn to NUCLEAR option amid rising NATO tensions, expert warns

JACQUI: PRESIDENT TRUMP BRUSHING. OFF CONCERNS THAT RUSSIA WOULD. ATTACK ANY NATO COUNTRIES AFTER. CIA DIRECTOR JOHN RATCLIFFE MADE. A COVERT TRIP TO MOSCOW ON. TUESDAY. PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLING THAT. TRIP STANDARD BUSINESS. LET'S BRING IN RETIRED. LIEUTENANT GENERAL KEITH. KELLOGG, FORMER SPECIAL ENVOY. FOR UKRAINE WHWHO NOW CO-CHAIRS. THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN SECURITY. AT THE AMERICA FIRST POLICY.

INSTITUTE. GENERAL, ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE. YOU, SIR. >> HI, JACQUI. JEFF. JACQUI: WE WERE TALKING ABOUT. THE INTERVIEW I WAS -- JUST DID. WITH SENATOR KENNEDY, AND YOUU. HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT A. TOO -- THE TIMING FOR A. SANCTIONS BILL. >> YEAH, LOOK AT THIS WORLD AS A. GIANT VENN DIAGRAM. MILITARILYLY, WE'VE GONE AWAY. FROM MILITARY OPERATIONS TO. ECONOMICS. THE RIAL, IT TAKES 2 MILLION.

RIALS THE BUY ONE U.S. DOLLAR. SO HE'S GOT THE RIGHT PIECE. THE OTHER PART IS THE DEFENSE. INDUSTRIAL BASE, AND NOW WITH. SECRETARY OF WAR HEGSETH AND. FEINBERG RAMPING IT UP WITH THE. ARSENAL OF DEMOCRACY, THE. TOMAHAWK MISSILES, HE'S BUILDING. THAT UP. THOSE ARE EXQUISITE MISSILE. SYSTEMS. WE'RE GOING TO BUILD UP MORE. AS THEY DEVELOP FOR, FROM. 60-1,000 OVER A YEAR, THEY'VE. GOT THE CONTRACT TO DO THAT. THE DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ACT.

NEEDS TO DO THAT, SAME WITH THE. PATRIOT MISSILE. WE NEED TO RAMP THAT UP FROM 600. TO 1,000 AS WELL. WHEN IT COMES TO RUSSIA, THAT. OOH -- THAT'S THE THIRD PART OF. THE VENN DIAGRAM. PUTIN KEEPS THINKING HE'S. WINNING THE WAR. HE'S NOT. I MEAN, HE'S IRRATIONAL ABOUT. IT. HIS DEFINITION OF WINNING IS NOT. THE SAME AS MINE. WHEN YOU LOOK AT HE HASN'T. GOTTEN TO KYIV, HE HASN'T SIGNED. THE NERO RIVER -- DNIPRO RIVER.

HE IS JUST STUBBORN ABOUT IT. HE'S NOT GOING TO GIVE UP LAND. I WAS THERE LAST WEEK, AND I. TALKED TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY. BASICALLY, HE'S TELLING THE. RUSSIANS, YOU WANT IT, YOU'RE. GOING TO FIGHT FOR IT. HE'S LAUNCHED A TERROR CAMPAIGN. I MEAN, HE'S HITTING THE CITY. WHY IS HE HITTING THE CITIES? HE'S NOT HITTING MILITARY. TARGETS REALLY. EVERY NIGHT HE GOES AFTER THE. DRONES OR MISSILES. ONE NIGHT WE WERE THERE, WE. SPENT A NIGHT IN THE BUNKER. BECAUSE THE BALLISTIC MISSILES. WERE COMING IN.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING? HE'S IRRATIONAL ABOUT IT. YOU WANT TO DEVELOP RATIONAL. ACTORS AS YOU GO ALONG. WE DON'T HAVE THEM IN IRAN OR. RUSSIA AS WELL. AND D HOPEFULLY, I DON'T KNOW, T. I HOPE, YOU KNOW, RATCLIFFE WENT. THERE, JOHN RATCLIFFE, AND HE'S. REALLY GOOD. HE TALKED THOSE THINGS. HE TALKED ABOUT IRAN. HE TALKED ABOUT RUSSIA. SUPPORTING IRAN AS WELL. HE TALKED ABOUT THE ECONOMIC. ISSUES. HE'S REALLY GOT A LOSING GAME. GOING. AND SENATOR KENNEDY BROUGHT THAT. UP REALLY WELL.

JACQUI: SO SO DO YOU BELIEVE. THAT THE PRESIDENT SENT. RATCLIFFE TO MOSCOW BECAUSE HE. DOES BELIEVE PUTIN'S PLANNING AN. EDUCATION CALCULATION? THERE WAS A LOT OF REPORTING TO. SUGGEST THAT. YOU KNOW, HOW SERIOUS DOES THE. INTELLIGENCE NEED TO BE TO. DEPLOY RATCLIFFE --. >> WELL, I THINK WE HAVE. EXQUISITE INTELLIGENCE. AND I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS A. FEAR OF DOING SOMETHING. IF HE DOES THAT, HE'S JUST DUMB. I MEAN, THERE'S NO REASON -- HE. DOESN'T HAVE THE COMBAT POWER TO. DO THAT TO START WITH, AND HE'D.

BE CRUSHED RIGHT AWAY. I THINK THE BIG WORRY, IS HE. GOING TO GO -- THERE'S ALWAYS A. THREAT IN UKRAINE, IS HE GOING. TO DO A LIMITED NUCLEAR STRIKE, WHAT WE CALL A DEMONSTRATION. WHERE YOU TAKE SOMETHING SMALL. AND YOU PUT IT IN THE MIDDLE OF. NOWHERE AND CROSS THAT. THRESHOLD. I THINK THE CHINESE WOULD. COMPLETELY CUT HIM OFF, BUT I. THINK THE FEAR'S ALWAYS THERE. IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. HE IS NEEDS TO BE TOTAL -- HE. NEEDS TO BE TOTAL, YOU'RE. ALREADY RATIONAL -- IRRATIONAL,

DON'T GO REALLY IRRATIONAL --. JACQUI: PUTIN DOES THIS WHEN HIS. BACK'S AGAINST THE WALL, DOES. SOMETHING CRAZY IN ORDER TO. SUGGEST WHENEVER THE U.S. IS. GOING TO GIVE A DIFFERENT KIND. OF WEAPON OR THE BRITS ARE GOING. TO GIVE A STORM SHADOW, YOU. KNOW, LAUNCHES THIS RHETORIC. SUGGESTING THEY'RE ESCALATING. THE WAR AND THERE'S GOING TO TO. BE A CONSEQUENCE, AND THAT'S. ALWAYS JUST A SIGNAL THAT. PUTIN'S TO BACK IS AGAINST THE. WALL. BUT THERE IS ALSO THIS WARNING. FROM THE PRIME MINISTER OF. POLAND AFTER HE MET WITH THE. SECRETARY GENERAL OF NATO. BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW, HE.

SHARED THE ASSESSMENT OF THE. SITUATION IN THE. UKRAINIAN-RUSSIAN FRONT. ESCALATION FROM RUSSIA IS. PROGRESSING. CAN'T RULE OUT PROVOCATIONS FROM. RUSSIA AGAINST ONE OF NATO'S. MEMBERS. THE PRESIDENT SAID THIS WEEK HE. DOESN'T THINK PUTIN'S GOING TO. DO ANYTHING. DOES THAT MEAN HE'S NOT GOING TO. DO ANYTHING HE WAS PLANNING TO. DO? HE'S NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING. CRAZY? CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE. PRESIDENT IS ACTUALLY THINKING? >> WELL, WE HAVE A RATIONAL. ACTOR WITH THE PRESIDENT. THE DIFFICULTY RIGHT NOW HE'S. DEALING WITH TWO IRRATIONAL.

ACTORS, ONE IN IRAN RIGHT NOW. WITH THE SUPREME LEADER WHO YOU. DON'T EVEN SEE IN PUBLIC. AND YOU'VE GOT PUTIN WHO YOU. LOOK AT HIM AND YOU GO, YOU'VE. GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU COULD. DO A CEASEFIRE IN PLACE TODAY. YOU ARE NOT WINNING THIS WAR. UKRAINE IS NOT GOING TO QUIT. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE UP. LAND VOLUNTARILY. AND SO THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY TWO. IRRATIONAL ACTORS. YOU HOPE YOU'RE GOING TO GET A. RATIONAL ACTOR. WHEN YOU GO TO EUROPE, THERE ARE. CONCERNS ABOUT THEY'RE DEALING. WITH AN IRRATIONAL ACTOR RIGHT. NOW AND THE FACT HE'S NOT. WINNING THE WAR AT ALL.

SO I THINK THAT FEAR IS THERE, IT'S VERY PALPABLE. YOU COULD FEEL IT WHEN I WAS IN. UKRAINE, YOU KNOW? THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER WAS. THERE, YOU HAD THE PRESIDENT OF. FINLAND WAS THERE, AND I HAD A. CHANCE TO TALK TO BOTH OF THEM. AS WELL. SO THE FEAR IS THERE. THEY UNDERSTAND IT'S IN THEIR. BACKYARD. HERE'S YOUR PROBLEM, JACQUI, THEY'VE LIVED FOR YEARS OFF OUR. BACK BY SUPPORTING SOCIAL. PROGRAMS --. [INAUDIBLE]. NOW THEY'VE GOT TO COME IN ABOUT. DEVELOPING THEIR DEFEND. PROGRAMS. THE PROBLEM IS THEY'RE TWO AND. THREE YEARS BEHIND, AND THAT'S A.

MAJOR PROBLEM. YOU CANNOT BUILD SOMETHING RIGHT. AWAY AND DEVELOP IT. THEY ARE DOING IT. IT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME TO DO. IT, BUT THEY'VE RELIED ON US TO. DO IT BEFORE. AND UKRAINE ADMITS THAT THEY'VE. RELIED ON THE UNITED STATES TO. PROVIDE PATRIOT MISSILES AND. SUPPORT AS WELL. THEY UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT IT'S AN UNUSUAL SITUATION. WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH THESE. ACT FORS -- ACTORS LIKE PUTIN. AND THE SUPREME LEADER OF IRAN. JACQUI: I DON'T ENVY THAT JO.