Murder trial in death of former Microsoft exec Jared Bridegan

Moving along to February 16th in the. evening uh on the night of the homicide. You have evidence to believe that Mr. Henry Tenan got into Jack's Beach. somewhere around 6:25 p.m. Right. >> That's correct. >> And you know that from the Taco Lou. surveillance. >> Correct. >> Okay. And this is the night and we've. already heard from Corporal Wallace, but. on this night there's um.

there's surveillance from businesses, correct? >> Yes. >> There's police surveillance, correct? >> Yes. >> There's Ring doorbell footage, right? >> Yes. >> And there's other people's personal. security uh videos that you were able to. collect to put into evidence to sort of. piece this crime together. Correct. >> Yes. Okay. At any point uh prior to the homicide, do you have any surveillance putting Mr. Fernandez anywhere near that F-150?

>> No. >> You don't have a single eyewitness that. says that Mr. Fernandez was in that. F-150, do you? >> No, there's no eyewitnesses. And in this case, I think you told the. jury on direct examination that there. were thousands of crime stoppers types. tips that came in to your agency. >> I don't know if the word thousands was. used, but there were a lot. Significant. amount. >> I agree that wasn't used, but there were. thousands, weren't there?

>> I don't remember the specific number or. there were a lot of them. I don't. remember how many. >> So, we can agree there were a lot. >> Yes. >> And people would just call you and say, "I saw that similar looking truck at. Home Depot.". >> Yes. And that wasn't much of a lead, right? >> No. >> But the community was aware that law. enforcement was looking for evidence. associated with a blue two-tone Ford. F-150. Right. >> It seemed like there were at least some. portion of the community that was aware. Yes.

>> Right. And that's why they would call to. give you information. Correct. >> Yes. And there's not a single witness. that's going to take the stand who. called Crimestoppers and said, "I saw a. person matching Mr. Hernandez's. description in that F-150 that night.". Correct. >> That's correct. >> And there's not a single person that. said, "I saw an F-150 similar to that. description parked near Mr. Fernandez's. residence that night." Correct. >> That's correct.

I'm going to show you now states exhibit. 91. >> I just need one moment, your honor. >> Sure. >> Thank you.

While we're looking for a video that the. state's put into evidence, the Ford F-150 was caught on Jack Beach. surveillance prior to the homicide. Correct. >> Yes. >> And it's driving right past the police. station toward the area of Pablo Hamlet. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And because it's prior to the homicide,

we know it's around 7 p.m. when that. happens. when the we'll see the exact. time in a moment, but it's around seven, right? >> Correct. >> Okay. And this is Jack's Beach on a. Wednesday night early in the evening, right? >> Yes. >> There are people walking on the. sidewalks. >> The area where the truck was is not a. super populated area. It's kind of. But there Yes, there were people walking. on the sidewalks. Okay, >> let's look at it.

I think you're done.

I'm showing you what's been already. placed in evidence is exhibit 91. You're.

familiar with this particular clip, aren't you, Detective John's? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay, push play. So the blue truck passed by. >> Yes, sir. >> And just in that one tiny clip, did you. see seven people walking on the sidewalk.

that passed that truck? >> I didn't count how many people over. there were people walking by. >> You take my word for it that there were. seven. Seems about seven people. >> There was a group in front, then there. was another group, and then there was a. jogger, right? >> Yes. >> And they were walking within I don't. know 10 or 15 feet of that truck. Correct. >> Yes. >> So, no reason to believe that at that. night, at that time, it wasn't like. Well, no one reported it because no one. saw that blue truck. Plenty of people by.

just that small clip had had their eyes. on that truck whether they were paying. attention or not. Correct. I can't say what they were or were not. looking at. >> You can say though that that truck. passed people in Jack's Beach that. evening. >> Yes, it did. >> You can say from your uh many many years. as a patrol officer and a detective in J. Beach that Jack's Beach on a Wednesday. at around 6:50 is an active area. >> Yes, it is. >> There's dog parks that are open, right?

>> I think they close when the sun goes. down and it's pretty dark here at that. moment. >> Maybe. So that area has parks and. baseball fields and sidewalks and. there's private businesses and gyms and. bowling alleys. That's the area that. we're talking about, right? >> The area that you're referring to. Yes. The area. This is a little bit. u west of that. >> Maybe a few hundred yards. I'm talking. about that area. >> Yes. >> Okay.

at the scene. I'm not going to spend a. lot of time on this because I think I've. asked you. There's no physical evidence. that puts Mr. Fernandez at that scene. >> No, there's not. >> There's no DNA? >> No. >> No eyewitnesses? >> No. >> No surveillance? >> No. >> Now, you do know that Mr. Fernandez is. home at midnight because law enforcement. went to his house around midnight and he. was there. >> Yes. No dispute as to that fact.

>> No. >> And you have no evidence that Mr. Fernandez was ever outside of his home. after 5:45 p.m. on the night of the. homicide. Correct. >> There. Do you mind if I check my time. sheet report? >> Sure. You can check any piece of. evidence that you think will help. establish that Mr. Fernandez was outside. of his home after 5:45 p.m.

>> There is no physical evidence that puts. him outside of his home. >> Now, let's talk about Henry Tenan for a. moment. He gets the jack speech around. 625, right? >> Yes, sir. And I'm going to try to. simplify this, but if you think I'm. oversimplifying it, please tell me and. I'll direct you to your notes where we. can really pin this down. So, we're. going to talk about Henry Tenon's. phones. You're familiar with Henry. Tennon's phones?

>> Yes. >> That was a big part of your. investigation. >> Yes. >> Henry Tenon, for whatever reason, he had. four phones, correct? >> That's correct. >> And one of the phones was associated. with a number that he gave to his. daughter that was on his plan. Correct. >> Yes. And we can assume for the purposes. of this conversation that doesn't really. have any evidential value to this case, right? >> That's correct. >> Okay. Then there's another phone that. Mr. Tenant gave to his girlfriend uh or. I guess can we call Peanut his. girlfriend? >> Yes. >> Okay. And uh Peanut's name is Janie.

Deal. >> Yes. >> But she goes by Peanut. >> That's correct. >> And in this case, Peanut uh had one of. the phones. That's what your. investigative efforts led you to. believe. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And there's some evidence in this. case that Mr. Tennant calls Peanut on. the night of the homicide, right? >> Yes. >> So, different than the daughter, there. is some connection that we can talk. about with Mr. Tenan and Peanut, right? >> I'm sorry, I didn't understand your. question. >> I'll get to that later. Okay. >> Mr. Tenan, on the night of the homicide,

you know, he brought with him two. phones, or at least there were two. phones with him when he came into Jack's. Beach and passed Taco, right? >> Yes. All right. And this is where I'm. going to try to simplify it. You know, by way of looking at the phones, and. each phone has a unique identification. number, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. And you were able to determine. that one phone with one unique. identification number stayed with Mr.

Tenan on the night of the homicide. Correct. >> Yes. >> And we refer to that phone as Tenon 2. Correct. >> Correct. And just to give the jury some idea how. you were to do that investigative effort. because that unique identification. number to the tenant 2 phone. had geoloccation, right? >> Yes. >> And because you were able to match up. Mr. Tenan walking that night on. surveillance, you were able to determine. by the times of the surveillance,

looking at the surveillance, and then. looking at the cell phone that Mr. Tenant was in possession of tenin 2. >> Yes, that's correct. >> Then. the other phone, tenin one, right? >> Yes. >> You were able to determine that had a. different and unique uh identification. number, right? >> Correct. >> And you know that during that night that.

those two phones separated, correct? >> That's correct. No dispute as to that. >> No. >> And the reason that we know that is. because after the homicide 10 in two. would call 10 in one. Correct. >> Yes. >> Sometimes the phones appear. >> Excuse me. >> Take your time. You need a second. >> At some point you know that they. separated by way of geoloccation. Correct. >> Yes. >> And then you know that tenant two called.

tenin one post the homicide. Right. >> That's correct. And common sense would. tell us you wouldn't call the two phones. if they weren't together. Right. >> Correct. >> Okay. And in this particular case, you also. were to determine that 10 and two and 10. and one were separated by way of geoloc. Right. >> That's correct. >> At one point, you know that 10 and two. around 9:15 is over by the police. station because we see tenon walking by. the police station, right? >> That's correct. And you can match that.

with the geol location because the phone. was turned on at that moment, right? >> Yes. >> And at that exact time, you have. previously said that you believe tenon. one was somewhere pinging over by Mojo, correct? >> In the area of Mojo or Pablo Hamlet. area. >> Okay. >> I'll let Nisha Ble get into the. specifics of that because there can be. variations. >> Fair enough. But the one thing you know. and Corporal Wallace uh has previously.

testified to is that Pablo Hamlet had. surveillance all the time, right? >> Yes, it does. >> And you don't have any surveillance of. the Ford F-150 at Pablo Hamlet anytime. around 9:15. Correct. There is some surveillance of the truck. coming back to Pablo Hamlet and then it. it moves into what we believe is the. gravel parking lot. But after that, no. Let's break that down. You know that the.

phone, excuse me, not the phone, the. truck pulls into Pablo Hamlet at. approximately 8:00 p.m. Correct. >> I'm just going to refer to my sheer, >> please.

Yep. Exactly. 8 p.m. >> Right. Then it pulls right out. Correct. >> It pulls forward. I wouldn't say that it. pulls out. >> It goes out of frame. It drives down. >> Does go out of frame. Yes. I mean, it. drives all the way until you can't see. it anymore. >> That's correct.

>> When I said it pulls out, it pulls out. of Pablo Hamlet. It's no longer at Pablo. Hamlet. It's no longer by the smoking. pavilion. It's no longer in that little. culde-sac. It is no longer by that. retirement house. >> Correct. >> And at that point, you have no idea. where that blue truck went. >> We have some idea, but we don't know. where it went from the next place. You. don't have it on surveillance. According. to Corporal Wallace, >> you disagree with Corporal Wallace.

>> I wasn't here for his testimony. Okay. >> I'm going to represent to you that he. told the jury that that he does not know. where the truck went after it pulled out. of Pablo Hamlin. The jury will, if I'm. saying it truthfully, the jury will. determine whether that was said or not. said. >> Okay, I'll sustain it. >> Can you show me where the truck went. after p.m. Detective John, >> it appears to me that the truck makes a. right into the gravel lot at the.

discovery school on the last frame. >> Let's watch that. >> This may take a second because I wasn't. expecting to do that. I'd like to watch. it with you.

Let's pause it. Detective John's, you see this video? >> Yes, sir. >> The record, this was part of states 91, the compilation video, and it's also uh. in evidence. Um, it's part of 91. It's also an evidence. as a individual clip. I just can't. reference in judge. I'll put that on the. record later. >> Okay. >> This is not an unfamiliar video to you.

>> No, sir. >> This is the exact video we are just. talking about. 203. Thank you, Miss Stifler. Okay. But. nonetheless, that's for the record. You. know this video. >> Yes, sir. And just to refresh the jury's. recommendation, we both have been. talking that the truck returned at 8:00. p.m., but you and I both know and the. juryy's heard before that the Pablo. Hamlet camera appears to be about 17. minutes fast. >> That's correct. >> We both agree to that. >> Yes. >> So when the uh video clip I'm showing.

you is from 216 2022 at 8:1625, this would be right around 8:00 p.m. >> Yes, sir. >> All right, let's push play. while we're waiting for the truck to. pull in. Detective, can you see a gravel.

lot anywhere in this video? >> No, you cannot. So, the gravel lot that. you're telling me that you think you can. see the truck pull into, you acknowledge. you cannot see in this video. >> That's correct. You cannot. >> Hey, detective. Do you see the truck? >> Yes, sir. >> That's the truck you believe is the. truck that Mr. tenant the F that he.

owned the or his father owned the F-150. >> That's correct. >> Appears to turn around and drive away. and then you see it make a right-hand. turn and go out of frame and it's. moving. Correct. >> That's correct. >> You never see that truck stop. Correct. >> No, you don't. >> So, when you just told the jury that you. think it went up and it pulled into a. gravel rock road, you've acknowledged. you can't see a gravel rock road in the. video, right? >> That's correct. And you just acknowledge. that you never saw that truck stop.

Correct. >> That's correct. >> So you have no idea if that truck. stopped in a gravel road. >> I think based upon where. >> All right. Reask it. Okay. >> Okay. So. it's okay. I I don't have a He answered. my question. >> I I'm not sure if they heard. That's why. I'm asking you reasking. My my question. was you can't see a gravel road rock a. gravel rock driveway in the video.

Correct, Detective John's? >> No, you cannot see it in the video. >> And you never see the Ford F-150 stop in. the video. Correct. >> Correct. At some point 10 and one and 10 and two. the two phones turn back on. >> Yes. >> And when they do they're both back near. the PTOAC address.

>> That's correct. >> So reason to believe that whoever was. with tenants one and two they go back to. PTOAC. >> Well the phones go back to I don't want. to over complicate it. That's where at. some point in time 10 and one and 10 and. two were in Jack's Beach. We agreed on. that. >> Correct. >> 10 and one and 10 and two separated. We. agreed on that. Correct. >> Correct. >> And then sometime later in the night, uh, you tell me, I think it's around 11. 10 and 1 and 10 and two appear to be. back in the PTOAC area.

>> Correct. >> But you know that Mario Fernandez is. home after 11 because law enforcement. saw him there. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And you don't have a single shred of. evidence to believe that Mr. Fernandez. ever was at PTOAC that night. >> No. >> You did speak with Miss Bride again that. night at the police station. >> Yes, sir. >> This was not uh recorded. >> That's correct. >> You did tell the jury a couple days ago.

that everyone's a suspect until they're. not a suspect. Correct. >> That's correct. There is no way for you. to know whether Miss Brideigan was a. suspect at that point in time when you. spoke to her. >> You're right. Correct. >> And yet you chose just not to record it. because you told the jury I was giving. her bad news. So I didn't think we. should do that essentially. Right. >> That's correct. >> When you spoke to the bride again. brothers, you recorded those interviews, correct? >> Yes. >> They were audio recorded and video.

recorded. >> Yes. On the night of the homicide, you did. inquire as to whether Miss Brideigan had. life insurance on Mr. Brideigan. >> I don't remember that. It was that. evening, but yes, we did ask. >> Okay. And you found out that uh Miss. Brideigan benefited. >> grounds. Um let me see you at Sabbar for the if. you have a response.

Madam court, through your investigation, uh, you learned that Miss Bryan did. receive life insurance, correct? >> Yes. >> And that was important for you to. determine what that was because you were. trying to investigate and find out uh. any and all information you could about. this homicide. Fair enough. >> Yes. >> You didn't just speak to Miss Bride. again that night at the police station. You spoke to her many, many times. throughout this investigation. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And regardless of what you were talking.

about, life insurance, her location, anything that you were investigating, you never one time did it in a recorded. or videotaped setting. >> The only time she was ever at the police. station in the soft room was the first. night. Every other time we ever met with. her, it would have been out in the field. or it would have been through a phone. call. because maybe that's where you chose to. meet her. That was a decision you all. made when you asked Mr. Fernandez to. come in. You asked him to come into the. police station, right? >> Yes. >> You asked him to come into a room that.

had a couch and a camera in it, right? >> Yes. >> You controlled that setting. You and. Detective Levant, right? >> We asked him to come in and he agreed. >> And you turned the camera on. >> Yes. You could have turned the camera on. when you met with Miss Bride again if. you asked her to come to the police. station, right? >> Correct. >> She was cooperative with your. investigation is what you said, right? >> Yes. >> So, if you asked her to come to the. police station, you have no reason to. believe she wouldn't have. >> No. >> Then you could have asked your questions.

in a recorded room if you wanted to, right? >> Yes. >> And you didn't in this case? >> No. >> All right. I'm going to move to October. 6, 2022. We're going to make a big jump. That's the day that uh the PTOAC Avenue. uh home was searched by law enforcement. Correct. >> Yes. >> All right. Can I get some help with these boots, Mr. Hill?

Can I. You want to set them somewhere? >> Can I sit them on top of the tire? >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> You okay with that, madam? I mean, your. honor? >> Yes.

>> Blocking the court order. >> Miss Simkins, are you okay? It's. >> okay. I'm going to find a spot for him. >> Mr. Holman, can we use that table over. there? Okay. Is this okay, Alan, or is it blocking. you?

Here we go. We'll get to it. Those boots were found at the PTOAC. address. Yes. >> Those boots don't have any DNA on them, do they? >> I'm sure they might have some somewhere. >> Let me ask a better question. You can't. associate those boots with anything at. the crime scene. Correct. >> Correct.

>> It's just that you think that maybe. those were the boots that Mr. Tenant was. wearing. When you look at that grainy. surveillance, that's how you came up with the fact. that those could be the boots. Correct. >> They appear to match the boots in the. video. >> Just so the jury's clear, it's all the. videos that they've seen of Mr. Henry. Tenant walking through Jack's Beach. >> Sorry, >> it's the videos that the jury has. already seen of Henry Tenon walking.

through Jack's Beach. That's the videos. that you're relying on to determine that. those are the boots. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> You never found a footprint that you. could match to the bottom or the soles. of those boots to say, "Yep, those match. the boots that we framed and put before. this jury." Correct. >> That's correct. Okay. >> There's no biological evidence like Mr. Brideigan's blood on those boots. Correct.

>> Correct. There's no biological evidence that you. guys decided to frame this jacket that. connects this jacket to. the homicide scene. Correct. Or this. this sweatshirt. >> Correct. >> Okay. The reason I said jacket is. because originally you guys, law. enforcement and your investigators, you. framed another jacket. >> Correct. >> Okay.

I'm going to ask that you step into the. jury room for about I say about 5 10.

minutes. Okay. All.

right. Please let the record reflect. that the jury's left the courtroom. Everyone may be seated. All right. Detective. Um, Mr. Derer is. going to ask you a series of questions. It's called a profer. That means that. um, this line of question may or may not. go in front of the jury. So, if you if. the court rules that it's admissible, you may have to answer them again. Okay. >> Okay. >> Mr. Der, you may proceed.

>> Detective Johns, did you help in the. preparation of the def the state's case. and getting prepared for trial? >> To what degree? >> You met with the state. You went over. your questions, talked about the. evidence. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And in this case, there was a wax. canvas jacket, like a welder's jacket or. something. >> Yes. >> That was the jack. Do you That jacket. was originally framed? Correct. >> I actually never saw that. >> You don't know that there was a welder's. jacket that was framed? >> No.

>> You never went into the conference room. and saw that? >> The only exhibits I have seen in the. conference room or that I recall seeing. are the ones that are here. And no one ever told you or you never. participated in the preparation of. choosing the welder's jacket to be. framed over this sweater. >> No. >> No further questions.

>> Any questions by the state? >> Let me see you all at Sidebar.

Mr. Homeman, can you see if the jury's. ready to come back in?

>> Can y'all move that jacket, please? Oh, you are okay. It was leaned up.

against the I don't want them walking in. with the evidence leaned up against it. So, put it wherever you. >> I'm It wasn't in a good spot, but I am. still using it. >> All right. >> Thanks, Alan. >> Trash can kill. >> and DUIs. I count on the prosecutors. doing that. >> Right there is fine. What's wrong with. that? Oh, >> thank you.

Don't put it back there. It's in the way. of like walking towards the screen. Okay. >> You should have let you pull up the. photos. >> Let's go. The boots. The jacket's up. She's the China.

>> Thank you.

All right, welcome back everyone. Everyone may be seated. Mr. Dry sir, >> Detective John's, can we agree?

>> That again. this particular sweatshirt was found at. PTOAC? >> Yes. this particular sweatshirt. You believe. by looking at the same video that's been. submitted into evidence to this jury, you can identify this particular jacket. by looking at that particular. surveillance video? >> Yes. >> And you feel confident that looking at. that you can determine it's this. particular sweatshirt?

>> The video seems to match the jacket that. is there. You should also sweat. >> Can you.

can you see that jacket? >> Yes, sir. >> That was also found at PTOAC. >> Yes, it was. And you believe you can. definitively tell from looking at that. surveillance that it's not that jacket, it's that jacket? >> I believe that to be the jacket that was. in the video surveillance. >> Just so we're clear, it's only because. you look at it. That's the only way you. believe it. You have no other evidence. to believe that that's the jacket. >> No. Look at some boots.

These boots were found at PTOAC. >> Yes. >> And you believe by looking at the. surveillance video that's in evidence. that you can tell it's those boots that. are framed and not these boots? >> Certainly not those boots. >> You don't think it's those boots? >> No. >> Okay. Let me show you another pair of. boots that was found. How about these. boots? Could it be these boots? >> I don't believe so. >> Why don't you believe so? If you look at. him walking and you see the tongue of.

the or the flap of the boots, it's more. consistent with those boots versus the. ones that are on the screen. And. >> I just want to make sure when you're. talking about the analysis that you're. doing, it's you're looking at the video. that's been submitted in evidence. There's no other videos that you're. looking at. >> There's no other videos. >> And you can tell by the tag of those. boots different from the tag of these. boots. >> Tongue. I'm talking about the tongue. >> Tongue of those boots compared to the. tongue of these boots. That's your testimony. Yes. >> Let me show you another pair of boots.

>> One boot that was found is one of the. boots that the government framed, right? >> Yes. >> But it's next to another pair of boots. that were found at PTOA because they're. found in the exact same spot. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And you can tell that it's not those. boots. >> I don't believe it to be those boots. No. >> And so the record's clear. Um, there's a. pair of black a black blue a black boot. next to the boot that's framed in the.

courtroom. >> That's correct. >> Let me show you another pair of boots. When Mr. Tenon's vehicle was recovered, you see those boots? >> Yes. >> And you don't believe those could be the. boots? >> No. >> And why don't you believe those could be. the boots, detective? They're the same. color. roughly tan construction boots, correct? >> Yes, sir. >> They were found in Mr. Tenon vehicle.

that you guys believe is associated with. Mr. Tenon, the Ford F150, right? >> Yes, sir. >> These boots have a long. >> tongue just like the boots in the. courtroom. Correct. >> Kind of hard to see the tongue in the. the photo. Can you see the tongue in this? >> Yes. >> Long tongue.

>> Yes. >> Just not folded out like the ones that. are framed in the courtroom. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And it's still your testimony that you. think looking at that video that's been. given to the jury that you can tell that. those are the boots and that's the. jacket by looking at the surveillance. and which has been submitted to this. jury. Those boots are most consistent. with what the video shows. >> Consistent with, but not necessarily the. exact ones. Correct. >> I can't say for certain they're the. exact boots.

>> Mr. Der, when you're um referring to the. photos, if you could say the exhibit. number. >> Yes. I was going to I'm sorry. I've been. referring to a sweatshirt type jacket. with you during my testimony, Detective. John's, that I'm holding. That is.

Can I just pull it out? States. 128. And the boots are. think it's a little drawer there at the. bottom.

I'll just look at the list. Just give me. a minute. Just pulls out there at the. bottom. Pulls out. >> They're not clear. Oh, >> I don't want to mess your evidence. I've. seen the bag. I just don't want to mess. it up. >> 129. For the record, the boots that. we've been discussing that I keep saying. are in the courtroom versus the other. boots are 129. We can agree with that, >> right? >> Yes.

It's on the base of that. Is it dry, sir? >> It's on the base that you took it off. >> Yes. >> And in 168, this is the box, a box of. boots that were found at PTOAC, correct? >> Yes. >> And you're certain that this box goes to.

those boots? They weren't found in this. box, right? I cannot say definitely that those are. the same exact boots that go in the box. And actually, if you know this, it's my understanding. that this box was not found where those. boots were found. Those boots were found. at PTOAC and this box was found in the. Ford F-150. >> Yes. So, it would be more consistent with the.

photo of the boots that I showed you in. the F-150 because that's where the box. was found. Correct. >> Though, those boots don't seem to match. the picture on the box. I'm not a shoe. expert, but. >> you're not a shoe expert? >> No. >> Okay. >> Hold on. And then lastly, I want to show. you. another jacket that was found at PTOAC.

Can you see that, detective? >> Yes, sir. >> It's another jacket that was found over. by Henry Tenon's belongings. >> Yes, sir. >> Let me show you a better picture. And I showed you defense exhibit 11, which is the green camo jacket, your. honor. >> Thank you.

And this would be another jacket found. where Mr. Tenan's belongings were. Correct. >> Yes, sir. That's correct. >> And the tan jacket that I showed you. earlier, which is exhibit 12, that was. found where Henry Tenan's belongings. were in the garage. Correct. That jacket was found in the garage. >> In the garage. >> Mr. Orway indicated that that was his. father's welded jacket. Oh,

>> okay. But you guys still collected it. for evidence? >> Yes. >> And you bagged it and tagged it and you. brought it over. >> Yes. >> Even though you knew that day that it. wasn't connected with Henry Tenant at. all. >> He called back later and asked if you. could have the jacket back. I didn't. know that at the time. >> Okay. But the sweatshirt that's framed. in this courtroom was not found in the. garage. It was found hanging in a closet. inside the house where none of Mr. Tenan's belongings were. Correct. >> Mr. Tenon did have some items inside the. house. Most of his stuff was in the. garage. >> That particular jacket was hanging up in. a closet.

>> Yes. >> And that's. state defense exhibit 13A. The jacket. not found in the garage, found in the. closet. >> Correct. >> According to this photo, yes. >> Well, who took this photo? I didn't take. it, detective. Neither did I. >> Someone from your law enforcement agency. took it. Right. >> Yes. >> An evidence technician? >> Yes. >> Can you see anything else in that closet. besides that jacket?

>> No. >> Can you identify one other piece of. evidence that would associate that. jacket with Henry Tennant? >> I don't understand. >> In that picture? >> No. On October 7th of 2022, you conducted a. controlled call. >> Yes. >> Can you tell the jury what a controlled. call is? >> Control call is when we have someone.

make a telephone call to another person. without their knowledge that it's being. recorded. And you had Jeremy Ordway. call. >> You're going to be heard. >> I need a moment. >> Okay.

I'll. >> rephrase the question. >> Okay. >> You found no evidentiary value in that. phone call. >> No, sir, we did not. >> I'm going to move your attention to. October 14th of 2022. That's when the. blue truck was located. >> Yes, sir.

>> Okay. And that blue truck was located at. Jimmy Jones's house. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> That was a friend of Henry Tenant. >> That's correct. >> Not a friend of Mr. Fernandez. >> No. >> You have no evidence that Mr. Fernandez. was ever at Jimmy Jones's house? >> No. >> Although Mr. Fernandez owned several. rental properties in town. He did not. own uh Mr. Jones's house. >> No, he did not. >> And uh while I'm pulling up some photos. of that house, that home was never. searched. >> No, it wasn't. >> So although.

The biggest break in the case was found, which is the blue truck, right? >> Yes. >> At a location that Mr. Tenant went to. because it was Mr. Tenant's friend, right? >> That's correct. >> You still had not recovered and have. never recovered a firearm in this case. Correct. >> Correct. >> You never searched that house? >> No, we did not. >> Never went inside. >> No. >> Never looked to see if there was a 10 mm. in that home. >> No.

I'm showing you. Is it defense or state? Defense 56A. That's a photo of uh Mr. Jones's home. >> Yes, sir. >> That's where the blue truck was parked. >> That's correct. >> That blue truck has evidence in this. case. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> Evidence was found at Jimmy Jones's. home. Correct. >> The truck was found at his home. >> No other evidence. >> You didn't look in the house, so you. don't know, right? >> There was no reason to search his house. Other than the fact that the biggest. break in the case was found at Jimmy.

Jones's house. Other than that, there. was no reason to search the house. >> We had records stating that the truck. showed up at his house several months. after the homicide. There was no reason to search the. residence. >> Several months after the homicide, you. hadn't found the firearm, >> correct? >> And there was nothing that pointed to. Mr. Jones as a possible suspect. >> It pointed to Henry Tenan, right? >> Yes. >> And you did have evidence that Henry. Tenan was at Jimmy Jones's house. Correct. That's correct. >> You have evidence that Mr. Tenant chose.

to park the truck, which was the truck. used in the ambush at Jimmy Jones's. house. Correct. >> He asked Mr. after the truck was. nonoperable, he asked if Mr. Tenanton asked if he. could have the truck towed there. >> Right. And what you don't know is if Mr. Tenant said, "Hey, can you stash this 10. mm in your closet for me?" You don't. know that. >> No. And if he did ask, it could have. been in his closet when he dropped the. truck off, right?

>> I don't think that's true based upon. there's no evidence to suggest that that. is true. >> There is no evidence to suggest because. we agree that you never searched the. house, right? >> That's correct. >> And had you gone in and had you found a. 10 mm, there would be evidence, right? >> I'm sorry, I don't understand. Had you. gone in and searched the home, there. would be evidence there wasn't a firearm. or there would be evidence that there. was a firearm, but we just don't know. today. Right. >> We did not search the house.

>> On February 8th of 2023, uh you pulled Mr. Fernandez over uh in a. traffic stop. Correct. >> He There was a traffic stop. Yes. >> And he was not arrested on February 8th. >> That's correct. You pulled him over. because you guys got a warrant to get. his cell phone device. >> That's correct. >> Okay. And when you pulled him over, uh, he was cooperative. >> Yes. >> He gave you the cell phone. >> Yes. >> It was without incident.

>> Correct. >> You found no other evidence. associated with this crime in his truck. >> Correct. >> You didn't find any large amounts of. cash? >> No. >> You didn't find any disguises? >> No. >> You didn't find any additional. passports? No, >> nothing to suggest that he was on the. run or he was attempting to flee. >> No. >> And in this particular case, um, he gave you the cell phone and he went.

on his way. >> That's correct. >> And you know that that cell phone by way. of your forensic investigation is not. the same cell phone that was used or. that Mr. Fernandez owned on February. 16th of 2022. Correct. >> Correct. >> So it's a totally separate device. >> Yes. >> It had been about. just short of a year by a few days when.

you collected the device from Mr. Fernandez. um via that warrant that we just talked. about. Right. >> Correct. Not unusual that a person could get a. new phone over the course of a year. Correct. >> No, >> it's not as if you stopped him like a. week later and all of a sudden he had a. new phone. It was a year later and Mr. Fernandez had a new phone. >> Correct. >> And then ultimately you arrested Mr. Fernandez uh and he had another phone. But that makes sense because you took.

his other phone, right? >> Correct. >> You didn't even search the new phone. because it had been so long and it was. such a brief period of time. Is that my. understanding? Correct. >> And. when you arrested him, he didn't flee. >> No, >> he was cooperative. >> I wasn't there during his arrest, so I. can't say whether he was or wasn't. >> Anybody report to you that he was. uncooperative? >> No. >> It's on body camera,

>> I believe. So, >> um, you agree that Mr. Fernandez had. moved to Orlando to live with his. brother uh on I don't know when but he. was arrested in March and at some point. before that he had moved. Correct. >> Yes. >> The Marshian Inlet home had been sold. >> That's correct. >> Miss Gardner had already moved to. Washington. >> Yes. >> Mr. Fernandez was not hiding out in. Orlando, right? >> No. >> The news media had taken pictures of him. in his driveway. Everyone knew he was in Orlando if you.

wanted to know. Correct. >> Correct. And in fact, at some point, you. guys put a tracking device on Mr. Fernandez's car. Correct. >> Yes. >> You knew exactly where he was. >> That's correct. >> And you have nothing to offer this jury. that he was leaving or attempting to. flee or anything of that nature. He was. just living with his brother in Orlando. >> That's correct. >> Never switched his vehicle or his car. >> No. >> And then of course the day he got. arrested, both days, let me just back. up. The day you stopped him for his. phone, he didn't know he was going to be. stopped, right? >> That's correct. >> And the day he got arrested, he didn't. know he was going to be stopped. Correct.

>> Correct. And you didn't find any large. amounts of cash, correct? >> On the when he was arrested? >> Yeah. >> I I don't know, wasn't there? >> It would have been reported to you if. you had like 100 grand in cash, right? >> I'm sure it would have been. >> If he had an additional passport that. didn't match his name or identification, you would have learned that, right? >> Most likely. >> And of course, you don't you didn't. learn that. >> No. >> You didn't learn that he had any. disguises or wigs or anything like that? >> No. He didn't have like a go bag in his. car where if I had to find out that I. was going to be arrested, I could jump.

on a plane and go with him. >> I don't recall anyone mentioning a go. bag. >> That would be good evidence if you found. him with a go bag, right? Law. enforcement would have been interested. in that. >> Yes. >> And there's no evidence to suggest he. had a go bag. >> No. And lastly, I understand you're going to. come back and you're going to talk about. financial records, so I'll ask you about. those later. But for today, um. you put up pole cameras at Marsh Inlet. >> Yes, sir. >> Yesterday we talked about pole cameras.

at um PTOAC, >> correct? >> Nothing in all of the thousands or. hundreds of thousands of hours that were. recorded on the pole cameras at Marsh. Inlet, you found nothing of evidentary. value? >> No. You never saw Henry Tenning go to. Marsh Inlet, the residence of Miss. Gardner or Mr. Fernandez? >> No, the pole cams were put up after. that. >> Well, the pole cameras were put up when. you chose to put them up and nonetheless. there was no evidentiary value of. anything that you discovered at Marsh.

Inlet. >> There was no evidentary value that came. from the pole cameras. >> But you put them up for a reason so that. you could try to collect evidence. That. was the reason you put it up, right? >> Partially. Yes. May I just have one moment, your honor? >> Yes.

No further questions. >> All right. Any redirect? >> Okay. The jur you're good, right? We.

just came back. Okay. Sure.

while Miss Day is finishing getting set. up. Your honor, may I approach the. witness? >> Yes. Detective John's. Um, I have an. exhibit I want to show you. Mr. Derer. mentioned this yesterday, and for the record, I'm marking this as. states 9B. Can you take a look through these three. pieces of paper? Composite maybe.

>> While he's doing that, um, can we move. those boots from Mr. Hullman's struggle? >> Detective, when you're done looking at. them, let me know if you recognize them. >> Thank you. >> Yes, I do. >> And what do you recognize those to be? >> These are license plate readers of the. Ford F-150. And are these license what. license plate reader records that you. received in conjunction with this. investigation? >> Yes, these were received from the St. John's County Sheriff's Office. >> And they're fair and fair and accurately.

and kept in the regular course of. business within law enforcement. >> Yes. >> Your honor, the state would seek to. introduce without objection from defense. states composite 9b is the next numbered. exhibit. I think it's 211. >> Mr. Hathaway, is it 211? >> 210. All right. Is there any objection?

All. right, Detective John's, I know you've. been on the stand a long time. I've got. a couple follow-up questions for you. based on what defense asked. The first thing I want to ask about is. the last thing, one of the last things. we ended on, which is those boots and. that jacket. Um, in considering whether. those are the boots and jacket you. observe on video, did you also consider. the physical appearance of those items.

when you collected them? >> Yes, we did. >> Does that include the size of the items? >> Yes. >> Mr. Derer showed you a picture of a. welding jacket that you believe to. belong to Mr. Ordway's father. Can you. describe for the jury the size of that. jacket? >> It would have been significantly too. small to fit Mr. Tenon. >> And that's based on your personal. observations of Mr. Tenon. They saw body. cam footage of him yesterday. Um, he is. describe his height in general build. >> Yes, that's correct.

>> Mr. Derer asked you about not recording. Kirstston Brideigan when you were. telling her that her husband had been. killed. Um, and you testified on direct. that you did so because you were giving. someone bad news. We were making a death notification of a. wife, so we decided not to record it. And that was the only reason we decided. not to record it. >> When Detective Burell and Detective. Lamont went to the home of Mario.

Fernandez and Shana Gardner on the night. of Jared's death to notify them of his. death, did they record that interaction. with them? >> No, they did not. >> And is that for the same reasons you do. not record your interaction with Mrs. Bride again? >> Yes, >> Mr. Derer asked you about court filings. in the family court case. and I'm not going to go through them at. length or pull them up but there were. several.

filings um that were written by Miss. Gardner's attorneys. Correct. >> Yes. >> And in those documents there was. discussion about Mr. Brideigan and some. statements um that the jury can look at. later that the Mr. bride again was. uprooting them and insisting the husband. can't have time share and you kept. saying that is what the document says. >> Correct. >> Those are Miss Gardner's words or her. attorney's words. Correct. >> That's correct. >> Do you have any way of knowing whether.

what she says in those statements is the. truth or not? >> No. >> Documents are written by lawyers. >> That's correct. You sat through. litigation in this case and you know. that um there's a lot of filings but a. lot of action happens in the courtroom. or in the halls of the courtroom that is. separate from filings. >> Correct. >> So the docket may not necessarily. reflect the tone and tenor of what's. going on when they show up at court. >> Correct. >> I'll rephrase.

I'm gonna move to a PowerPoint. I'm going to start with the cell site. slides that Mr. Derer asked you about. and you used cells site mapping to. further your investigation, but are you. an expert in cell site analysis? >> No, I'm not. >> Should I ask Agent Ble these questions.

in more detail? I'd be happy to try to answer them in. the same manner that I did for Mr. Derer. >> I want to ask you about two of the. slides. This one, January 29th, which is. page 19 of States exhibit 182. And I understand you're not expert, but. based on your investigation and your. Oh, sorry.

So based on your review of this slide, does it appear there is some period of. time in which Mr. Tenan and Mr. Fernandez devices overlap in the same. area? >> Yes.

may proceed. Thank you, your honor. Detective John's, I'm not asking for an. expert opinion by any means. Just in. general, does this slide, in your. estimation, show that there's some time. where Mr. Fernandez and Mr. Tenan could.

have over overlapped in the same. geographic area? >> Yes. And that's on January 29th, 2022. >> That's correct. >> And then another slide from January. 29th, 2022. This is page 32 of states exhibit. We. can see here as well. Does it appear at. least just generally that Mr. Tennon's.

geoloccation data and Mr. Fernandez's. cell phone are in the same geographic. area for some period of time. >> Yes. >> And Mr. I ask you these because Mr. Derer went through these slides with you. at length. This one is February 15th. This shows um and Mr. Derer asked you. some questions about this that Mr. Fernandez was or at least his device. was in the area of 5239 PTOAC Avenue for.

approximately. I would say 27. minutes. >> Yes. >> And it appears at some point that um. I'm sorry I have the wrong slide. Hang. on. Here we go. February 15th in the evening. for a little less than an hour and a. portion of this time. Would you agree. with me or can you state with some.

confidence that Mr. tenants device, Mr. Fernandez's device appear to be in the. same geographic area for some period of. time. >> Yes. >> Now, in February 16th, 2022, Mr. Tenant. was obviously driving that blue to. two-tone Ford F150. >> Yes. >> I want to ask you about the license. plate reader report that. you just identified for the record.

The light not on. Is this the license plate reader report. for St. John's County for the vehicle. registered to Henry Tannon? >> Yes, it is. When you get a license plate. reader report, does it include a. photograph of the vehicle attached to. the license plate or that the license. plate's attached to?

>> Yes, it does. >> And in this license plate reader report, we see that Mr. Tennant's vehicle was in. the vicinity of Northeast A1A in Pontane. Lake Boulevard on January 29th, 3:37. p.m. >> That's correct. And in this picture, we. can see that the tag is indeed attached. to that blue two-tone Ford F-150. >> Yes. >> And that same date, we have another. license plate reader from the same area,

January 29th at 2:46 p.m. Racetrack Road. in US1. And a photograph here. We can. see the tag is attached to Mr. Tennant's. blue two-toned Ford F-150 vehicle. >> Yes. And here we can see again January 29th. 245. at Green Leaf Drive, Northeast Valley. Ridge Boulevard and Green. Leaf Drive and that is again the. two-tone truck. >> Yes.

>> In any of these license plate reader. reports, was there a photograph of such. that you were able to see who was in the. vehicle? >> No. >> Was there a photograph such that you. were able to see how many people were in. the vehicle? >> No. But this lets us know that Mr. Tenan on. January 29th was in his blue two-tone. Ford F-150. >> Yes. >> Mr. Derer asked you about the media. release of the photograph of the blue.

two-tone Ford F-150. And your testimony. was it was released into the community. and upon questioning from Mr. Derer, you. admitted that many people in the. community, especially Jacksonville. Beach, were aware that police were. looking for this specific vehicle. >> That's correct. >> And these slides show that at the time. period that Mr. Tenan was driving this. vehicle, he over overlapped for several. significant periods of time at PTOAC. Avenue with Mr. Tenant while he was in. possession of that blue two-tone. vehicle. >> That's correct. >> Did Mr. Fernandez ever tell you during.

his interview or respond or give a. Crimestoppers tip or tell anyone that he. knew his tenant owned a blue two-toned. Ford F-150? >> No.

I want to talk about your interview with. Mr. Fernandez. Mr. Dric, you asked Mr. Derer asked you some questions about. statements Mr. Fernandez made about. details of the homicide. >> Yes. And um do you believe that the media had. released information that there had been. a tire in the road shortly after Jared. Brideigan's death?

>> I do know a media report was done. I. just don't remember the exact date that. it was done. >> Did you and investigators. initially believe that Jared Brideigan. had gotten out of his vehicle to move. the tire before he was killed? >> Yes, we did. >> Was that information ever made public? >> No. I'm going to go through states exhibit.

approach. >> Yes. States exhibit 91. It's some. surveillance video Mr. Derer asked you. about. and you testified that you believed on. the second time that blue truck went to. Pablo Hamlet that it pulled into the. gravel lot at the Discovery School. >> Can you explain to me why you believe. that?

>> Just based upon where you see the. turning happening, it seems to be too. soon to be turning onto the next street. Also, the next street only goes to the. police station or the golf course. There's no exit onto a major highway.

This is states exhibit 91 that I'm. publishing.

That is the first time the truck left. Pablo Hamlet prior to the homicide. Is. that right? >> I can't see him on the screen.

>> Rats. I'm going back and forth between. Get this queued up. All right. So, playing at 2805. Was.

that the first time the truck left Pablo. Hamlet prior to the homicide? >> That's correct. And this time is should be actually 8:00. p.m.

That's my fault. >> You see here the blue truck. >> Yes.

And can you explain for the jury and if. you need to mark on the map um the. geographic layout of what we just looked. at and where this gravel the lot is in. relation to where 15th Street is and. where that truck was pulling out. >> So the area that we're hold I can zoom. in. this. pull down. >> states exhibit 208.

Sorry, this is the world's worst mouse.

>> All right, I'm gonna leave it like this. We're on 208. detective, if you could. show them what. >> So, the camera is actually coming from. this Pavl Hannah area. and then basically the gravel lot is. about right here, which is basically on the side of the. discovery school. >> At the time of this homicide, you've. already or I think someone previously. testified. Did the Discovery School have. video surveillance equipment? >> They did not.

>> Or working? >> Well, they did have it. It just was not. working. >> Mr. Derer showed you a what he deemed or. described as a business plan of Mr. Tenan. Was that found during the search. warrant at the PTOIC house? >> Yes, it was. >> I approach the witness, your honor. >> Yes.

This is states exhibit 197. And may I. publish for the jury? >> Yes, you may. >> This is a composition notebook. Is this. what was collected at PTOAC? >> Yes. >> Show everyone. the business plan. You all take this back with you. And I'm showing you the last page. It's.

page five out of six with writing on it. And there describes some costs. associated with a pallet business. And. they are dated. Can you tell me the. dates on this business plan? >> The cost or the sheet here is dated. March 29th, 2020. >> Thank you. Is there any indication during your.

investigation through your discussions. with Mr. Tenant's co-workers and boss at. Madison Pallets or review of his. financials or review of that notebook. that he had a business plan in February. of 2022? >> All right. um response. >> I can rephrase it. >> All right, you may. >> Did you ever find any evidence that Mr. Tenant had a current business plan in.

2022 such that he bought equipment. or had reached out to vendors or had. filed any paperwork with the state? >> No, I did not.

Mr. Derer asked you whether you had any. evidence that John Bigger Staff ever. possessed a 10mm firearm. You said no. physical evidence. Did you have other. evidence in the forms of statements on. recorded wires, witness statements. that led you to to keep investigating. Mr. Bigger Staff? >> Yes. >> Did Mr. Bigger Staff have a gun cabinet.

still at his home when members of your. team went to interview him? >> Yes. >> Did you speak to a witness, Mr. Fred. Barton, in regards to Mr. Bigger Staf's. activity with his firearms? >> Well, a member of my team did. Yes. >> Did you receive information from the ATF. regarding a police report filed by Mr. Bigger Staff's son, Juan Bigger Staff, regarding the serial number of the 10mm. firearm? >> Yes.

Did you receive a Google return for John. Bigger Staff showing that he had Googled. and searched 10 millimeter firearms? >> Yes. >> And was that on January 25th, 2022? >> Yes. And that is. one of the slides that was prepared for.

you by agent BLE indicates that on. January 25th, 2022. that Mr. Fernandez was in the vicinity. of Mr. Bigger Staff's residence. >> That's correct. Detective Johns, when you're asked by. Mr. Derer whether you have. evidence of a specific.

conclusion, I guess, and you say no. physical evidence. Can you explain to. the jury how it is you look at your. investigation? Is it piece by piece? Can. you describe to them how you view the. evidence when making your determination. of how to proceed as a homicide. detective? There's certain things that are. a oneoff or a conclusion, but um a. favorite uh co term is a totality of the. circumstances.

So you look at everything, you can't explain things through maybe. one little piece, but when you start. looking at a big picture and you look at. everything together, that is when you. can start developing um evidence that. all kind of comes together and makes. sense versus a a one-off thing that. maybe on it by itself doesn't mean much. >> One of the last things Mr. DER asked you. was in regards to the recovery of the.

blue truck at 1705 University Street. where Mr. Jones lives. >> Yes. >> Mr. Derer asked you that there is no. evidence to suggest it's not true that. firearm could be at Mr. Jones house. Do. you remember that question? >> Yes. >> Did you receive information during your. investigation in 2023. that the firearm in this case was. disposed of? >> Yes. and therefore not at Mr. Jones house. >> Correct.

>> No further questions, right, Mr. D? Sir, >> let's go in reverse order. Juan Bigger Staff, John Bigger Staff's. son is going to test. Well, he's a. listed witness. You know that? Yes, sir. >> And I don't think I heard you. When the. state asked you where this gun was. disposed of, it was Texas.

>> No, she didn't say that. She just asked if. it was disposed of. >> Are you talking about when Juan Bigger. Staff, she asked you wrote down the. serial number of the 10 mm firearm in. Texas? Is that what you're referring to? >> Yes. >> Who disposed? You don't know who. disposed of the firearm. Correct. You. don't have the firearm. >> I do not have the firearm. >> What she did ask you about was a serial.

number of a firearm that matched the. description which Juan Biggerstaff, John. Biggerstaff's son, reported stolen in. Texas. Correct. >> Yes. >> Mario Fernandez had nothing to do with. that. Correct. >> As far as I know, no. >> He didn't file the police report. Right. >> No. He wasn't located in Texas, right? >> No. >> And then you learned that John Juan. Vigorf said he made a mistake and he. wrote down the wrong serial number, right? >> Yes.

>> Okay. The gun cabinet, that was evidence that. you just suggested to the jury could be. not physical evidence that John Bigger. Staff had a firearm because when they. went to his house, he still had a gun. cabinet. Do you recall testifying to. that a moment ago? >> Yes. John Bigger Staff had an old rusted. out wooden gun cabinet that couldn't. even shut on his back porch filled with. garden tools. That's what you found at.

John Bigger Staff's house. Correct. >> Correct. >> But the state, you didn't offer any of that. information. It was just that an old gun. cabinet and Mr. Bigger Staff couldn't. own fire, excuse me, scratch that last. question. Mr. Biggerstaff couldn't own. firearms. Correct. he was not legally. allowed to have firearm. And. >> that the the the state of disrepair of. the gun cabinet that they just asked you. about was consistent with a gun cabinet. that hadn't seen a firearm. in about eight years, right?

>> I have no way of telling that. >> But it wouldn't surprise you if a gun. hadn't been in there in eight years, right? >> I can't say. >> People don't keep guns on their back. porch, do they? Unlocked. >> Generally, no. >> Yeah, generally no. Right. And did you. find a gun in the cabinet or did you. find garden tools? >> There was garden tools in the locker. >> Okay. So, now let's talk about the. license plate reader that the state. asked you about. You're right. It didn't. have a picture of Henry Tenon in the.

car, right? >> No, it did not. >> You just used that information to. determine that Henry Tenant likely could. be in the car and then you use the. Google information to determine that we. do believe it was Henry Tenant, right? >> Yes. You're not going to look at this. jury and say it's not Henry Tenanton, right? >> You believe Henry Tenant was in that. vehicle. >> Yes. >> You just don't have a picture of him. >> Correct. >> But what license plate readers also. provide is additional information that a. vehicle was in the area. Correct. >> Yes. >> And in the area is an area of Nagati.

where there were lots of businesses. Correct. >> I'm honestly not familiar with that. exact. area. >> You know that's what the gymnastics area. was, right? >> I know that Nagati generally has lots of. businesses. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> And you knew the time that the blue. truck was there. Correct. >> Yes. >> So that gives you an investigatory lead. that you could then go and determine if. there was any surveillance that could. put Henry Tenan or Mario Fernandez in.

that blue truck. Correct. >> I don't understand your question. Sorry. You could take the location of the. vehicle. and the time of the vehicle. looking at states exhibit 210 that they. just put into evidence. And you could. say, "We know he's in this area at this. time. Let's go see if there's any. surveillance that we can now put Mr. Fernandez in that vehicle by other. businesses with that information.". Correct. >> There were no indications that he.

stopped and uh patronized a business in. the area. So, you just didn't do it. You didn't. ask any. >> Did you ask one single business if they. had any surveillance of any of a blue. F1450 around the time of January 29th in. Nagati? >> No, I did not. >> Today, going back to the gravel lot thing, you. never saw the vehicle stop in the gravel. lot, correct? >> No, I did not. So, you don't know if it.

just kept going. Even if it pulled into. the gravel lot for a second, you happen. to be right in your speculation. You. don't know that it stopped there, right? >> I don't I can't say how long it did or. didn't stop there for. >> And just so we're clear, the gravel lot. is a children's school, correct? >> Yes. >> This is 8:00 on a Wednesday night, right? >> Yes. A random pickup truck sitting right in. front of a children's school stopped for.

two hours is the the length of time that. that truck would have been that that. vehicle would have been there. Not a. single person reported a suspicious. vehicle inside of a school parking lot. >> That area is actually very dark. It's on. the side of the school. I don't know. that anyone you could have probably. pulled in there and no one would even. know that the truck was there. Or someone could walk by and see a. suspicious truck in front of the gravel. lot in front of a children's school. Right. >> On the side. >> on the side of the children's school.

Right. >> Yes. >> To get into Pablo Hamlet, you have to. pass that road. Correct. >> Yes. >> And no one reported a suspicious vehicle. outside of a child's school at 8:00 p.m. on a Wednesday night ever to you that. entire night. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And the other thing that the jury should. know is that the gravel lot is about. four or 500 yards closer to the police. station from where it would be tucked in. at Pablo Hamlet? Correct.

>> I don't understand the question. Sorry. >> How far is the gravel lot from the. police station? >> It's fairly close. >> So, the truck moved closer. This truck was just involved in a an. ambush murder. We know that it hung out at the Pablo. Hamlet for about 20 minutes prior to the. homicide. We know this time it backed in. and it pulled right out. Can we agree. with that? >> Yes. >> And your speculation is that it pulled.

closer to the police station? >> It pulled off the road closer to the. police station. >> by 25 30 feet. Yes. >> You think it's 25 30 feet from the. culde-sac at Pablo Hamlet to where you. think that car pulled out? You think. that's 30 feet? >> I don't I don't know that it's I'm. estimating, but it's not very far at. all. >> We saw it on video that whole time the. car drives out. You're telling me in. this jury that you think that's 30 feet. >> I don't know exactly how far it is, but.

it's not very far at all. >> Nonetheless, you will agree at least. that it's closer to the police station. >> It is physically closer to the police. station. >> and it's also closer to a major. intersection, 15th and Shedder. Correct. >> Yes. And then lastly on redirect. this morning you felt comfortable. talking about the January 29th and when. Mr. Fernandez goes to PTOAC you were. able to say that you felt comfortable.

saying they could have been there at the. same time. Do you recall saying that? >> Yes. >> Those are your words could have. >> Yes. >> Because you can't say that they were. there at the same time. Right. their devices were two devices that. belong to those people were were there. in generally the same time. >> That's what I'm trying to get out. Let's. break it down. Let's start with what we. can't agree on. When Mr. um Tenan comes back after this dry run, you can say that for a period of time.

the device of Henry Tenan was at PTOIC. when the device of Mr. Fernandez was at. PTOAC. You testified to that, right? Could you show me the slide again? Sure. Miss Day, can you pull up January 29th. slides and let's go backwards. Let's. start with the the return. >> Do you mind if I use the restroom while. you do that? >> Sure. >> Okay. Members of the jury will take um. five minutes and we'll return back. Leave your nozzle on your chair.

All right. Please let the record reflect. that the jury has left the courtroom. Same rules apply, detective. Courts in. recess. >> Your honor, um, just I would like to. profer a recross outside the presence of. the jury when Mr. Derer's finished. >> Okay. Mean redirect. Rirect, double. redirect. >> Yes. Resquared. >> Direct.

Yes, that would be fine. Judge, >> I let Mr. Derer know I have two. questions for re redirect but one that I. want to profer. >> Okay. Um and that is because. >> you have more. Well, no. It would just. be this one question, but I wanted to. let court and council know based on Mr. Derer's questioning of the firearm could. be at Mr. Jones house. You don't know. You've never recovered the firearm. Um, it could be there.

>> Okay. >> I would like to ask Detective John's. because he's been instructed that we're. not bringing in of Henry any any of. Henry Tenants statements into this. trial. >> Okay. So, detective, again, um, a profer. is a situation where the attorneys ask. you questions outside the presence of. the jury. It's for admissibility. purposes only. So, you may or may not. answer these questions again in front of. the jury. You may proceed. >> Okay. >> Detective John's, independent of what Mr. Derer was asking. you about about a police report. involving the bigger staffs.

in February and March of 2023. Without. saying where you got the information, did you come to learn that the firearm. or as part of your investigation, did. you learn that the firearm used in this. murder was disposed of in such a way. that it was unreoverable? >> Yes. >> That's what I'd like to ask. Any. questions based on that? But no questions for him.

I'm asking a question. >> I know. I'm I'm I'm thinking. >> Detective John's. the information that the state's talking. about is what you learned from Henry. Tenon. >> Yes. >> Okay.

That would be inconsistent. with anything that you testified. regarding the firearm being stolen in. Texas. Correct. Both thing both things can't be true. It. can't be disposed of. in February or March of 2022 and then. stolen in Texas. Correct. >> I can only testify to what I was told. and I'm only testifying to what one. bigger staff reported. Right. What you.

were told is it was disposed of in such. a way it was unreoverable. Correct. >> Correct. >> So then it couldn't be in Texas with one. bigger staff. Correct. >> That's an inference. >> You weren't told that the gun went to. Texas. >> That's correct. >> You weren't told that the gun went to. Juan Biggerstaff. >> That's correct. >> You weren't told that the gun went to. John Bigger Staff. >> Correct. What you were told by a person. who's no longer uh cooperating, who the.

defense has never gotten a chance to. speak to, is that the gun was put into a. junker's truck. Correct. >> A scrap metal truck. >> Scrap metal truck. >> Yes. >> You You just told me that you don't make. inferences. Correct. >> I said you were making one. >> You You wouldn't feel comfortable making. the inference that it would never be. recoverable. Mr. tenant never told you. was a a scrap truck that could never be. recovered. Correct. >> Based on the statement that that he was. made, I was answering a question which.

was that he said it was put to a scrap. metal truck. >> That's it. That's all he told. He didn't. say anything about it being. unreoverable. Correct. >> Correct. >> You don't know if he put it. We don't. even know where in the scrap metal truck. he put it. Correct. >> It was in a trailer of a scrap metal. truck. >> You don't know that. He didn't say a. trailer. He just said he put it in his. scrap metal truck. Correct. >> Correct. >> You don't know if it was in the front. seat. Correct. >> That's correct.

>> You have no idea what happened to that. firearm. Correct. >> That's correct. >> You have no idea that if that gun went. to a scrap yard and it was being. unloaded that someone wouldn't have. said, "Hey, there's a perfectly good 10. mm firearm that's only a few years old. That's unusual to be in a scrap metal. truck." You don't have any idea what. happened to this firearm. Right. >> Correct. for the state to ask you that. it's unreoverable. All the questions I just asked you would. tell you that you have no idea whether. it was unreoverable because you don't. know, right?

>> I only know what Mr. Tenant testified. to. >> The only thing you know is that he said. he put it in a scrap metal truck. >> That's correct. >> I don't have any more questions. >> Okay, let let me see you all at Sidebar.

All.

right, let's bring him in, Jerry.

So none of those questions are going to. be asked.

Thank you. All right, welcome back. Um, everyone. may be seated. Mr. D, sir,

>> Detective Johns, >> give the jury just a sec. All right, you. may proceed. >> Detective John's, lots of questions back. and forth. I want to slow down and make. sure we get some timelines correct. Okay. The state asked you on the. redirect. If Mario ever gave you any information, Mr. Fernandez, excuse me, gave you any. information at his interview about a. Ford F-150 truck. Do you recall those. questions? >> Yes. >> And of course, he didn't do that, did. he?

>> No. >> When was Mr. Fernandez's interview with. you? It was March 1st, 2022. Correct. >> Correct. >> You didn't release the Ford F-150 to the. media until March 9th of 2022. Correct. >> Correct. So, Mr. Fernandez, had he told. you anything about a Ford F-150 truck, he would have been making a serious. admission to you that he had knowledge. about the crime. Correct.

>> I don't I mean, if he could. >> would have been pretty damning if Mr. Fernandez started talking to you about a. Ford F-150 truck, two-tone color, driving around Jack's Beach on the night. of the homicide. Right. >> He was also interviewed at a later date. after the release. >> That's not what they asked you. They. asked you if in that interview he told. you anything about a blue Ford F-150. truck and he didn't. >> He did not. >> And you hadn't released it yet. >> Correct. And then you told the jury in. response to other questions that the.

state asked you about him saying he got. out of the car and that they asked. whether that had been released to the. media. Correct. >> Correct. >> But m detective Burell and Detective. Lamont went to Mr. Fernandez's home on. the night of this homicide around. midnight. You know that, right? >> Yes. >> And they gave a death notification. Correct. >> Yes. >> And in a death notification, people ask. what happened, right? I don't I don't. know anything one way or the other about. their conversation.

>> because you weren't there. >> That's correct. >> And you don't know what they said, right? >> That's correct. >> And it wasn't a big secret that he was. shot and killed. Miss Brightan testified. yesterday that they told her that he was. shot and killed that night. >> That's correct. >> And he was found outside of his car. >> Yes. >> So that's not a big secret, right? >> No. >> And in Jack's Beach, the other question. the government asked you is, did they. record Mr. Fernandez and Miss Gardener. when they were getting their death. notification? And your answer was no. Right. >> Correct. >> That's because in Jack's Beach, you. don't utilize body cameras, right?

>> No, we do not. >> So, there would have been no way to. record it if they weren't wearing body. cameras. Correct. >> We do utilize handheld recorders at. times. >> At times, but it wasn't recorded because. you don't wear body cameras, right? >> That would be a better question for. Detective Burell or Detective Lean. >> Just like knowing what in fact they told. Mr. Fernandez, you weren't there for. that. >> That's correct. But you were there when. Miss Brideigan learned that Jared. Brideigan was shot and killed. Correct. >> Yes. >> And you do know that Miss Brideigan went.

to the Fernandez residence the next day. Correct. >> That's correct. >> You have no idea what they talked about. Correct. >> Correct. >> So, this is not some foreign concept. that Mr. Fernandez two weeks after the. homicide may have known that Jared. Brighten was killed outside of his car. because he got out and that he was shot. and killed. Right. >> Correct. I left off asking you about some slides. and I said I was going to go in reverse. order, but nope, she has it pulled up.

This is the slide. of January 29th that the state asked you. about, right? >> Yes. >> And you said he could have been there at. the same time, right? >> They could have been in the same space. >> Could have. >> Yes. But what I'm trying to ask you is. they also could not have because the. location data isn't accurate enough to. put them at the same spot at that time.

Right. >> I can only attest to what is on the. slide. I'll let Agent Ble answer your. technical question. >> Okay. Let's see what's on the slide. Henry Tenins in black in geol location. Correct. He's the red dot. >> He's the red dot. Right. And it's showing at what time? 206. >> Yes. >> Let's back down below. At 2:00, he.

appears to be in the area of PTOAC. Correct. >> That's correct. >> And at 206, he's even farther away from PTOAC. Correct. >> Correct. And then look all the way to. the right under the call out box at 210. He's even farther away than from PTOAC, right? >> That's correct. >> So with your limited ability to testify, Mr. Tenan is leaving PTOAC, right? >> Yes. >> His devices.

>> Yes. >> But I'm going to agree with you that we. all believe it was Mr. Henry Tenon in. that truck that went on that dry run, right? >> Yes. >> There's two different technologies going. on. We're using geoloccation for Mr. Tenan and we're using cell timing. advance records for Mario Fernandez. Correct. >> Correct. >> That's why you can't necessarily tell. exactly where Mr. Fernandez is because. he's moving between cell towers using. timing advance records. Right.

>> Correct. >> So up top at 2:00. All right. At the same time, you see. where we said Henry Tannon was epitomic. at 2 o'clock. >> Yes. You see where Mario Fernandez is at two. o'clock? He's inside that top band, right? >> Yes. But there is potential for them to. overlap. That's what was that was what. was a question asked me. >> I'm getting there. At 2:00 they're not. in the same spot.

>> There's no data for both of them at. exactly 2 o'clock or between 2 o'lock. and 202. >> Right. So the point is they could have. been at PTOIC at the same time or they. could not have. They may have been two. ships passing in the night. You can't. say one way or the other. >> I'll let Agent Ble answer that question. >> Well, I'm going to ask you to answer. that question. You felt comfortable. doing it for the state. You said could. have. So you're also agreeing that they. may not have. Correct. >> Based upon the time lapse, it is.

possible. Yes. >> That there are two ships passing in the. night. >> Yes. Okay. and then we'll see what Agent. Blight says, right? >> Yes. >> May I have one moment? >> Yes. >> No further questions. >> Right. >> Anything further? >> Yes. I have four questions.

Sure. Detective Johns, when I asked you about. Mr. Fernandez, you did have an. interaction with him after the media. release of the truck. In fact, you spoke. to him again and took a swab from his. cheek on April 15th of 2022. >> Yes. >> Did he mention at all a blue two-tone.

truck? No, did not. >> And that had been released in the media. for a couple weeks at that point. >> That's correct. >> And we went through the slide earlier. I. know Mr. Der was asking you about. January 29th, but February 15th, the. jury can go back and look and Agent Ble. will testify. There's at least 20 to 25. minutes where Mr. Fernandez and Mr. Tenan are together at PTOIC the day. before the homicide. >> That's correct. Um the surveillance in Nagati he asks. about you all identified Henry Tenan as.

a suspect in this case in July of 20122. >> That's correct. >> When did you receive those LPR reports? >> Uh I don't remember the specific date. >> Was it after that? >> Yes. >> And that was because you had no reason. to look for Henry Tennant's license. plate because you hadn't identified him. or his vehicle up to that point. >> That's correct. and. January 29th through July to August of. 2022. Um, is there much chance that. businesses are going to have.

surveillance six months later? >> In your experience, you I'm sorry. >> Go ahead. >> I'll lay some foundational questions. Obviously, you guys canvas and collected. a ton of surveillance video in this. case. >> Yes, we did. And do you have experience. in general, not from this case, but as a. patrol officer and as a homicide. detective in collecting surveillance. cameras? >> Yes. >> Footage, excuse me. And generally, have you found in your. experience that businesses or homes keep. archived surveillance footage for.

So, you interviewed Mr. Biggerstaff at. his home in November of 2022?

>> Yes, ma'am. >> Was this part of your efforts with ATF. to locate the 10mm firearm or that you. believe to be involved in the homicide? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And during your investigation, in your. conversations with Mr. bigger staff. Was. he ever able to provide you physically. with a 10 millm firearm? >> No, ma'am. >> Was he ever able to direct you to a. witness that could provide you with that. 10 millm firearm? >> Uh, direct me towards a witness. I. believe we went they went in the. direction of interviewing his son, Juan.

Bigger Staff. >> And did you interview Mr. His I'm sorry, I'm going to have to use their full name. so we can differentiate on the record. Mr. one bigger staff. Did you and agent. Simmons and other members of the team. >> speak with Mr. One bigger staff? >> Yes, but so did uh initially so did our. uh our counterparts in Dallas. Uh ATF. agents in Dallas also interviewed Mr. Juan Bigger Staff. >> And why is it that you had counterparts. within ATF interview him? Was he lo was. he local or was he out of state?

>> Uh he was uh in living in in Texas at. the time. >> Mr. Wuan Bigger Staff. >> Mr. Wu Bigger Staff. Yeah. How was he. employed in Texas? >> He was a police officer. I believe it. was at the Irvington Police Department. >> Um, and ATF agents went and spoke to. him. >> Yes. >> At his job in Texas. >> Yes, ma'am. At some point after. agents had spoken to Juan Bigger Staff.

and you and Miss Simmons, I'm sorry, Agent Simmons spoke to John Bigger. Staff. Uh, did you have the opportunity. yourself to speak with Juan Bigger. Staff? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And when did you speak with him? >> I believe we spoke with him in December. of 22 when he came into the uh state. attorney's office. um while he was in town on a uh trip. >> At that point, had you had any success. in locating the whereabouts of the 10mm.

firearm that Mr. John Bigger Staff had. once owned? >> No, we have not. >> And you had agents speak to his son, Juan Biggerstaff? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Did you speak to a man named Fred. Barton? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And still no information about where his. 10mm firearm was located? >> Yes, ma'am. Correct. When Juan. Biggerstaff came to speak with you at. the state attorney's office at the Crime. Gun Intelligence Center, did you all ask.

him to wear a wire on his father, John. Bigger Staff? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And can you explain to the jury what it. means to wear a wire? >> Uh, we gave him a recording device, um, which he we actually gave him, I. believe, two recording devices, one that. was audio and one that recorded audio. and video. Um, we provided those to him. and then he went to his father's. residence. >> Was he willing to wear it? >> He was I would describe him as. apprehensive but willing.

>> And at the time that you asked him to do. this, was he still employed as a police. officer with the Irving Police. Department in Texas? >> I believe so. >> Did you give him instructions on how he. should conduct this conversation and how. to work the equipment itself? I believe we did um we would have told. him how to work the equipment. Um I. didn't personally give him instruction. on how what to talk about, but um the.

point of the conversation was to try to. ascertain the location of the uh Glock. pistol, the 10 millimeter. >> Did you all ensure that one bigger staff. could not contact his father before he. actually met up with him in person while. he was wired up? I believe we did. >> Once he went to his father's house and. had a conversation with him, did you. review the contents of the wire. recording? >> Yes. >> Were there portions of the audio missing. from that recording?

>> Yes, ma'am. >> From that conversation, um, did it. appear to be or what was the tone of the. conversation without saying what was. said? >> Right. Um, >> I don't believe Mr. uh, Juan Bigger. Staff was. completely full. >> grounds.

So, as to the speculation, I'm going ask. that you just rephrase that it has to be. his own personal knowledge. Um, and I'll. overrule the other. >> and you're on the right track. I know. you mentioned hearay earlier without. saying what they talked about based on. your training and experience as a.

special agent. What did you perceive the. tone and tenor of that conversation to. be? Did it appear to be flowing. naturally? Did it appear? >> It did not to be It did not appear to be. flowing naturally. >> What do you mean by that? >> Again, without saying what they said. >> Yes, ma'am. >> To you. I'm trying to recall exactly. It It.

It just did not seem natural. I know I'm. repeating myself. I apologize. It felt it. Let's see. Um, the conversation. presented itself as if.

there was. that he was wearing a wire that there. was. um. it was hesitant. >> Okay.

You may proceed. >> Okay. >> Thank you. Agent Stangle, your. perception of reviewing that tape was it. did not appear natural. >> Asked and answered.

>> Okay. Sustain. From that conversation, did you all. obtain any investigative leads that. helped you locate and physically recover. that 10 millimeter firearm? >> No, ma'am. >> In June of 2023, were you alerted by the same ATF agents. who spoke to Juan Bigger Staff back in. 2022. as to a police report that one bigger. staff had filed in Dallas, Texas?

>> Yes, ma'am. And did you obtain a copy of that police. report uh in that investigation or relay. that to your fellow teammates on this. homicide investigation? >> Yes, I believe Agent Simmons received. the report of the um the report you're. referring to. Yes. >> Yes. Sorry about that. >> Do you need him to repeat? >> Okay. >> I have no further questions. >> All right. Thank you. >> Yes. May we approach just for scheduling.

purposes? Yes. Come on.

All right, agent. >> Yes, ma'am. >> The state has another question. Okay. >> Okay. Agent Sangle, in your 18 years of. experience with the ATF and as a. firearms instructor, have you come.

across many 10 mm firearms in the other. investigations you've done as a special. agent? >> No, ma'am. This is the first. >> And would you say that in your training. and experience with the ATF and as a. firearms instructor that a 10 millimeter. firearm is relatively unusual? >> It is unusual. Yes, ma'am. >> Thank you. Now, I am done. Thank you, your honor. >> Great. Um, agent, we're going to come. back after the lunch period um to take. up your cross-examination. >> Yes, ma'am. >> What I'm going to instruct that you can.

leave in just a moment, but you are. still considered to be on the witness. stand and you should not discuss your. testimony with anyone, and that's. including the lawyers. Do you understand. this court's instruction? >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right. Thank you. You can be excused. for the lunch period. Members of the. jury, um I have an unrelated hearing. that I have to have um in a separate. case. So, I need to kind of expand or. lengthen. You can go ahead. It's fine. Um lengthen your your break. So, that is.

So, I'm going to do an hour and a half, but if it kind of infringes on the. staff's ability to have a break, it may. be just a little bit longer. But know. that it's not the parties that sit. before you right now. That is the delay. It's this court's schedule with the. other case. Okay? But I will try to be. as on time as I can. It is 12:00 now. We. will come back in session on this case. at 1:30 or as close as I can get to it. Okay. Leave your notepads on your chair. Enjoy your lunch.

All right. Um, please let the record. reflect that the jury has left the. courtroom. This court will be in recess.

to set up the juror's lunch. We will not. start the gardener hearing until the. jurors have crossed over to the other. jury room. So, courts in recess until. that process has taken place.

for issue. >> Was that the clerk?

Please, Miss Nelson. >> Good morning, your honor. Kristen. Nelson, on behalf of Shana Gardner, we.

wave her fiscal presence today. >> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Clifton. >> All right. Thank you. Miss Brideigan's. also present. Okay. Um, so Mr. Hathaway, the clerk. just handed me. Three, well, one is. Miss Gardner's notice of sworn. affidavits in support. And so then there. are two affidavits that are contained. I.

have not had a sec. I haven't had a. chance to read that. I guess Mr. Hathaway pulled them in. So, I need a. second to read the affidavits. Um, but I. can. I guess hear. from the parties because this was later, just so the record is clear, later in. the day, yesterday, there was a request. by the defense.

to put this case on for status. And. obviously, we're in the middle of trial. Was that a knock? Well, we're going to pause for a moment. Oh, sorry. I didn't know what door that was. coming from. All right. So, there was a request to have this. hearing. Subsequent to the defense. request, I did get and and I have. reviewed slash read.

and reread a few items so that the court. could be prepared for this hearing. The defense after the request made by. Miss Gardner filed a supplement to. non-party witness. and victim Kristen Kristen Brideigan's. objections and motion for protective. order regarding the defendants's August. 13, 2026 subpoenas plural. So before we begin, I want to make sure.

that we are framing what the issues are. before we just start arguing again. So I. want to know, are you is Miss Bride again objecting to. all subpoenas? >> The answer is yes, your honor. >> All right. Is there anything that from.

Miss Gardner's perspective. we need to take up before I address the. objections to the subpoenas? >> No, your honor. We followed the court's. directive yesterday to not file papers. in opposition, but we are prepared to. respond if the court has questions as to. our position. >> Okay.

All right, Mr. Clifton, I will I will. hear your objections so that we're. organized. I want you to go subpoena by. subpoena as to what the specific. objections are by Miss Brideigan. >> Yes, your honor. And I'll start just over overlay because. it's not necessarily just a specific. objection to each subpoena. I mean, there's two subpoenas, but overall, our objection is that we.

have not been provided the information. of materiality and why these subpoenas. are necessary, which creates a situation. where then we are arguing in the dark. >> All right, I'll stop you there. Okay, >> for the record, this is the the court's. seventh hearing, I believe, on this. matter. If it's just an overarching, you don't. know why I want to address that and I. believe the court addressed it issue by.

issue. Okay. um. in its order. as to why. the court is requiring the production. as it relates to the paragraphs from the. initial subpoenas A and B.

Do you have an objection to the call. logs, which is G? >> Again, your honor, and and I don't mean. again as in, you know, I know I've made. a lot of these arguments before. In your order, you state that there is a. sealed inc camera submission identifying. several specific alleged statements and. subjects that this court finds satisfies. the requirement of materiality. We don't know what those specific.

subjects are that they provided to the. court. I'm unable then or Mrs. Brideigan. is in the position of being unable then. to object to their either. characterizations or the reasons why. these subpoenas should not be issued. So. in a normal circumstance, if they were. going to subpoena call logs from say. Verizon, I think the case law would say. that I am in a loss to say that they. can't get those. They didn't do that process. They are. going after Mrs. Bright again's phone to.

get that same information. I don't. believe that I it's the same, I guess, is the best way to put it. And again. though, I don't understand the reasons. why they would even be allowed that. And. I don't and I couldn't find a case where. again the majority of the time when. you're dealing with subpoenas for phone. logs, date time, and all of those. information, you're getting it from the. carrier. I've done it. It's difficult to. keep people from getting clients cell. phones for just that. Um, I mean there's. arguments, you know, say you can find.

pattern. >> Hold on. What is that sound? What is. that rubbing. as do you. clip it on your tie? >> I apologize. >> It's driving me crazy. Okay. >> All right. >> All right. So, >> it's it's a different burden we believe. And so, in like I mentioned, in a normal. circumstance where you're going after. Verizon, I believe the case law is there. to support that. I would have a. difficult argument to object to that. This is different though. And the main. reason it's different is because I'm. unable to object to say, "Well, no,

that's not really to that or that's not. really for this because I don't know. what they're arguing.". >> Okay, >> it leaves us in the dark. And that is. our main concern here. And I and I just. since we're on it, I'll just. They have argued that, you know, they. need to keep their strategy to. themselves and certain instances to. themselves. They don't want to apply to. the state. We're not the state. Mrs. Bryan's a nonparty victim in the. case. It's not the same. It's not the.

same to say, "Well, yeah, the state. probably shouldn't know what our defense. strategy is," or at least little kinks. of our defense strategy. That's different for her. We're not the. state. It's It's not the same burden to. look at. And again, we don't have case law where people are. pulling and extracting cell phone data. off of a nonparty victim's phone, specifically in a homicide. This is not. a case where she's an eyewitness to say. that's the person or anything like that. or that's somebody who did this to me. This is a nonparty victim whose husband.

was murdered. >> She's also a witness. >> and a witness. But it's not the I mean. you can't it's not just any witness. It's a nonparty victim. There are. actually enumerated rights for her that. is different than anybody else. >> Okay. So I agree and I have agreed. multiple times with. Miss Brideigan's position. in so far as. this court has acknowledged multiple. times her constitutional rights. Okay. I.

think I've written it in the orders. I. think I've verbalized it during. hearings. That is solid. Okay. And I believe in your paper you wrote. that I said gray area. I say gray area because of facts not. law. The foundation of this country is. the defendant's position is the United. States Constitution. Miss Brideigan's position is a carved.

out Florida constitutional issue with. overarching just general constitution. rights both privacy that have long been. a part of the foundation of our state. and our country. So I am respectful of. all of those things. I'm not in a legal. okay in my mind I'm not in a legal gray. area. The rules that is 3.220 220 have a. subsection where there are situations. that when the state of Florida doesn't.

necessarily disclose in certain ABC in. that paragraph um and also situations. where because discovery is wide and. liberal in the state of Florida there. may be situations where it comes to the. court for resolution. Okay, I'm not in a. legal gray area. what I am is in a. factual gray area because I've never um. nor have I found through um our my.

binding courts or other district courts. a situation like this meaning that I. could look for a four. for cases right on point. Um, but that's. why we're all lawyers and sometimes we. have to navigate factual. um, gray areas and we have to pull from. solid law. So, let me know. I I want to. let you know I don't I want to clarify. that if I was unclear. I don't believe. I'm in a legal gray area. I have to.

Warren clearly states, okay, that it is. court error. All right. And I think I've. written this court error not to do an in. camera. um inspection. If I just say. turn it over, that is um per se uh. violation of this court's mandate. I. have to do the weighing. I have to do. the inspection. I have to do all of. those things. And I I went back and I read Warren.

again. And that's why I want to say. we're not in legal um gray territory. And and then Ro talks to the download. I'll go back to Warren, but Warren um the trial court and these. obviously are different, but they were. still that is the trial court was um. interpreting the Florida Constitution.

just on general privacy right because. obviously the victim's rights were not. um a part of that case. But. it's at headnote 7 um which appears to. be. it looks like page 637 of the opinion. It says, "When a person raising the. privacy bar establishes the existence of. a legitimate expectation of private.

privacy, the party seeking to obtain the. private information has the burden of. establishing. need sufficient to outweigh the privacy. interest." Okay? And I'm going to pause. there because. Miss Bridean has a legitimate privacy. interest. um legitimate, maybe even more. so than this case because it is um. written into our constitution. Um so.

that being said, you are arguing and I want. clarification. You are arguing that you. don't know what you're arguing against. Um but the defense in previous hearings. has put forward that it is related to. bias. It is related to motive. It is. related to all of those things that. would implicate both their United States.

fifth and sixth amendment um rights. And. so what privacy right that Miss. Brideigan has would override those. United States constitutional rights um. that would allow Miss Brideigan to come. in and hear what the defense arguments. are? Um what they would intend to what. what authority do I have to let Miss. Brideigan come and do that other than. maybe the general thing that you put in.

here? And I don't see that that would. allow her. insight into the defense. um the defendants's fifth or sixth. amendment uh rights that are implicated. within their arguments related to other. witnesses when Miss Bride again if she. was just a victim and she was not being. called as a witness and she there was no. showing whatsoever. I don't know that I would have granted. it because.

I mean it doesn't really make any sense, but the state. um has represented to this court that. she will be a witness in the gardener. case. There have been showings at. previous hearings that she's had and. testified to in deposition without. objection about her. contact with other listed witnesses in. the case and some of it may be relevant, some of it may not. And there were no. objections then when they was talking. about the content.

Um, that's where I'm at a loss that now. because they're asking for paper or. information independent of her testimony. that now all of a sudden she gets to. know what they're doing and why they are. doing it. That's my question. >> Okay. Number one, in her depositions, yes, she answered their questions. I. mean, that's what she was instructed to. do. her second deposition, the court. actually instructed in your order that. she put together those doc that she put. together information in order to answer.

their questions and she followed the. court's order to now reverse that and. say, "Well, you did it then and now we. should be able to search your phone.". No, there's a line there. There's a. line. >> I'm going to stop you because I said. lodge an objection if you thought and. you can bring it to me. I didn't say. don't object. I just said there was. there was that was a separate issue. where it was allegations that she was. figning that she could not remember. That's why I asked it was the figning. and so I didn't to avoid the possible. request of a third. I just wanted it to.

be productive and so and I also said you. could object and certify whatever. questions you thought were. inappropriate. >> If just so I'm I'm clear in the record. are is the court stating that Mrs. Brightan has waved her privacy rights by. answering questions in a deposition. >> No, >> I'm not. >> Well, then her privacy rights still. exist and so it still exists even though. she answered those questions in a. deposition.

Answering questions verbally going along. with the information they have. And. again, your honor, they everything that. they're talking about that they need. they had in that deposition because they. were asking are direct questions about. records, about post, about everything. That's how this all came about. >> So her privacy rights doing verbal is. different than now they want to go into. her phone. >> Right. >> Okay. And I your honor mentioned gray. factual era. I or area. I can't agree. with you more. We're also in a gray.

factual area because it's not just their. claims of bias and witness um. encouragement or however they put it in. their motions that your honor just. talked about. That's not the reason why. your honor granted it because we were. making those arguments and there wasn't. anything. There was an inc camera. submission. that states the sealed inc camera. submission identifies several specific. alleged statements and subjects that the. court finds satisfies the requirement of. materiality. That is where our issue.

lays is I am unable to address those. specific submissions that identify. several alleged statements and subjects. this court finds satisfies the. requirement of materiality because I. don't know what they are. Mrs. Pridean. doesn't know what they are. So we're. asking to be basically hand a phone over. and let it be searched. We don't know the reasons why it's being. searched because a vague bias is not a. reason for somebody to be able to search. a phone. And so again, we're in we're.

we're in that gray area of facts too. because we don't know what's there. And. this is a different situation because. again the majority of the case law when. we're talking about in camera here's the. documents like you know I mean it's it's. something that's already in hand and. that's not the case here. In order to. take that step, you have to I mean there. has to be I guess a finding by the court. that number one, Mrs. Brightigan is not. does not have a right and is not going. to find out what the submissions that.

were provided to the court that were. specific alleged statements that support. the fine of materiality. and that based upon those submissions, the defendant's rights outweigh Miss. Brightigans. and we just have not gotten. to that complete picture of things. But. I think now as you know since we're here. and that's we're kind of getting to the. end of this after like you mentioned. seven hearings that's really what this. is about. So there has to be some type. of ruling that says number one she. cannot know what this is because that. hasn't happened and number two that.

based upon these submissions their. constitutional rights Mr. Gardner's. outweighs Mrs. fight against. And when. we get to that point, I mean, again, I'm. going to make the same objection. I. don't know what the submissions are, but. I think that's kind of the first. >> What authority. What authority is there that says that. Miss Bridean is entitled to defense. theory? What what scenario or case civil. criminal that a a nonparty could sit in.

and then make arguments related to. something that has been identified and. now ruled on as material okay to a. defense theory. That's that's where I'm. I'm at a loss. I've I've I asked which. due process requires notice which I've. given notice every time and right to be. heard. we we have been heard over and. over and over again. I have identified.

okay the areas and I said not everything. um and that I what I believe Miss. Bridean is entitled to based on the. court's ruling. I have ruled okay and I. I think that's what's lost in all this. I have ruled. So now there needs to be. compliance. There has to be some level of finality. Right, wrong, indifferent. There has to.

be some level of finality with this. And. so using the Warren decision, using the. rope decision, not in legal, you know, I'm not a legal gray area. There was. there cannot be a wholesale turnover of. her phone. And so what I have tried to do is. painstakingly go over and while I. understand through the objection you. don't I'm not and I did not I did not in.

this order say turn over your phone. I'm sensitive to that. People's lives. are in their phone. Okay. They are not. entitled to that. Instead, they I thought maybe we could. peace meal or like or extract just. certain portions so she would have some. level of comfort that I'm not even. looking at it. Okay. But there's an. objection to that by the defense. And I.

found another case that says objection. without solution. I I can read it to you. That that's. inappropriate, too. just saying I object. I object object there has to be some. level of finality and I believe it's in. Warren that says it just saying I object. and then there's no that's why I was. trying to come to some solution because. I have ruled okay I have ruled and I. ruled a long time ago and in my mind and. then I gave them only narrow.

areas. narrow time frames. If. if the Miss Bridean's position is that I. don't want the defense and you objected. to the defense expert that I don't know. remember his name right now but like the. defense expert doing it. I said identify. one that y'all were comfortable with. that. Then that expert that was.

identified said that he can't he he does. not believe same arguments that Miss. Stiffler made yesterday that like it. can't extract just a piece then if. that's the case then I will go through. it and just give them this small area. time from each area that I say not. everything from four years. Some of. their arguments only said talk about May. 2025. Certain things only talk about that and.

I will parse through it. What I think is. fair and I'm going to get to it from. Miss Bridean's standpoint is I could the. whole phone Mr. Clifton gets given to. her and if you want to do an objection. log based on my order saying okay this. message from AB okay consider this judge. this should not be a part of the. disclosure I think that's what's fair. that would protect her privacy interest. without impacting Miss Gardner's um.

constitutional rights. >> your honor how do we make sub. substantive objections to messages if we. don't know what the materiality of any. of these messages are that that is what. we. >> I gave you clues any substantive message. okay so we'll just start with AB and LB. so I required a narrow set of. communications between Miss Bride again. and AB miss Brideigan and LB from May. 2025. plus.

any earlier communications. specifically referencing Miss Gardner. a charge case, jail, incarceration, testimony, emancipation, use of Miss um use of Brideigan's. attorney, statements of the family. members. So that is the clue. So if the. message let's say hypothetically says um. hey AB.

um gardener and it it pulls from. whatever the search gardener um she's. terrible person but the context is like. oh just joking blah blah blah then that. is the objection that should not be. disclosed because the context of that. particular statement is related to a. silly whatever, whatever. That should not be given over to the. defense. It doesn't have anything to do.

with her bias, prejudice, blah, blah, blah, that I've already identified and. then I'll weigh it to see whether it. goes or not. There will be a tracking, a. log, and then I will file all objections. and then it will be a part of the record. and can go up and maybe we can make some. case law to give some other courts some. guidance. I'm trailing a new path. Okay, that's what I'm seeing. But the the. metadata, the fact that they could have.

gotten it, we've been down that road. Um, if it's on the phone. and it hasn't whatever, if it hasn't. gone away, then there's no privacy. rights in dialing a phone number. Like, it it's the same thing. And as far as. the um AB and LB. in on the fourth page on those areas, if. you want to look at it first, I'll give.

you a short snap count because we keep. litigating the same thing. Object say. that should not be disclosed. Judge, read three messages before that. was related to whatever. That should not. go over. that's just a relationship. whatever and I will make the call to say. because I know about the strategic. things and I could say just like I would. in any ruling whether something comes in. or it stays out.

it's a judgment call by the judge it's. discretionary on me and so I know the. rules I know um the evidence code I know. discovery okay and it may or may not and. if it's. private. If she wants to assert her. constitutional rights there, assert. them. But it's I only want to look or. look in camera at the very narrow.

scenario that is before the court to. allow which the defendant is allowed to. test the state's evidence. Witness. testimony is evidence. Impeachment is. wide. Extrinsic evidence could be used. it they I think they wrote in their. papers at one point I'm recalling they. said well we shouldn't just be confined. to her answers in a deposition if they. know now that something else exists and.

I don't know what they have whatever but. like I have to handle what is before. this court which is a request and I'm. trying to handle it with as much care as. I possibly can for both sides that is. what the law requires So, Rogue says. that when the court orders, which I. understand, it's a government intrusion. It's um and then that's a 196 and it. says that there wasn't a dispute about.

privacy. We're going into 197 which no. one is disputing. And however, however, when the government intrudes, okay, it has to be narrowed and I'm. prepared to do that. I'm prepared to I'm. prepared to respect Miss Brideigan's. rights, but I also have to give over. what they would be entitled to. That's.

my job. So, that is to me the fairest. way to do it. extract if they've. apparently submitted affidavit that say. that you could target if Miss Brideigan. objects to that and and the expert says. that give the whole thing I'll give it. to Miss Bride again. It's her phone then. you lodge the objections in the areas. where um I've identified that should be. turned over and I will make rulings on.

those objectionable areas. That was my. thought based on what I read from you. But I we're not starting from scratch, Mr. Clifton. I mean, I feel like I've. given a pretty good road map and I'll. give it to her first and you you go. through it, make a log, I'll I'll. compare it and then after the log, I'll. give them the opportunity to be hurt. I'll make the call. Does that sound. fair? >> No, your honor. I would I mean, we're. still, you know, we're not agreeable to.

that. I mean, the bottom. >> I've ruled, Mr. Clipton. So based on my. ruling, I'm asking, do you want to. exercise that process or not? I need. compliance. You can tell me yes or no. If you want to object or not, the way. that I'm I'm outlining for you. >> Yes, your because this isn't just a. blank objection. Again, our objection is based on unknowns. So. yes, we still object to it because I. can't go through records. I can't tell. what is what if I don't know exactly. what their materiality is to be able to.

respond to it. If your honor orders. compliance and orders us to turn the. phone over, I mean, that's that's that's. your honor's. >> Okay, this let me be clear, okay? Miss. Brideigan would never be allowed to. object about relevance. Okay, she is not. a party. She can't object based on. privacy. She can't say, "Oh, that's not relevant. I'm not telling you." She can't object. on privacy. And the state of Florida's. bowed out. they don't want to be heard.

about this. And so that is her that is. her legal ability to lodge objections to. this particular piece of evidence. So. whether it's relevant or not or goes to. their defense or not, that's not her. obligation is we're like, think about it. like you're in a depo, right? She can't. say I'm I'm objecting. You're not going. to, you know, that's not relevant. But. she can say this impacts my privacy.

rights. And so looking in that lens, okay, based on the categories that I've. given, that is where I need your input. That is where I need her to say, "No, that's taken out of context. No, that. impacts my privacy. No, they shouldn't. get that because that is where that is. her legal foothold in this whole. situation." That's the way I see it. I've ruled. Okay. I've ruled I've ruled. about this and I like if.

to the certain extent like the justice. for Jared I said. the um. just it's very small areas that I like. comments. >> we were told by their expert yesterday. that that's not even on the phone. >> what. >> that you have to get that through meta. >> how did how would they know that. >> because none of those DMs or anything. are saved to an individual's phone, they're saved in meta cloud and that was. his whole.

>> I thought he well I don't know what I. what I was very clear about is that. phone is not going to be used to log in. anywhere. Okay. So if it is or if it. isn't then if it's nothing then it's. nothing. There's no objection there. It's what what is contain they've asked. for information on the phone but the. phone is not going to be used to connect. to anything. It's just going to be. whatever I don't know what Cell Bry is. able to do now, but like it's only what.

is actually on the phone that will be. allowed. I'm not Miss Nelson that I hope. that was clear. >> Yes, your honor. Completely clear from. our perspective. >> Okay. No logging into anything. It's. just whatever is contained on the phone. And so. this is the next question I have, Mr. Clipton, which is. the defense has identified two. individuals that say that they can.

target the areas within my order. Or are. you requesting the full download and you. go through it and you lodge your. objections. that way? >> I'm not requesting a full download. because I don't think that's proper. I'm. not I don't know who their experts are. I mean, that was just filed. I didn't. review it, your honor. I didn't I mean, I didn't have time to do that. I guess. the best thing I can say to your honor. in order for us to move on is we are not. in agreement to turn the phone over. So. if your honor, it sounds like you are. going to order compliance to turn the.

phone over to a certain individual on a. day, we're just asking then for that. order to take place. because that has not taken place. And so. I I just want to be clear. gathered this information. Is that. right? And that's why the phones getting. turned over. It was over the other. pleading that was filed is it it's. overburdensome.

It's not I guess organized in a way and. in order for Miss Bride again. I I did. not want to order the download, but I. also need the information in some form. And so that's how we got here. >> about the download. >> There are particular documents that she. put together for that second, you know, on her phone to talk about that second. deposition and she testified to all. those. That's never even been requested. That's like those specific information. has not been requested. It's just a.

solid request of we want all. communications from May 2025 and on. Not. what we talked about in the deposition. >> Is it is it a part of what I've ordered. >> to be in camera reviewed. >> what Miss Brideigan has put together? >> It is your honor. We requested the. screenshots as part of our subpoena. >> I I don't have anything regarding screen. but there it is. I mean that's so there. is I guess a portion that she put. together for your own I mean that is.

there. >> Okay. Have you has Miss Bride again comply. with EF turning that over? >> Yes ma'am. >> Okay. >> I mean there's been and again I mean. because this this idea of just. objections and not saying anything. We're allowed to object. I mean a. subpoena came out and we objected to it. and that's what we're dealing with right. now. If there's going to be an order, you need to turn over the X information. that you talked about these messages in. that again. I mean, an order. I can't go.

through this order and just say now. we're going to give this, but hey, we're. not giving this. Overall, we don't want. a download of her phone. If there are. specific messages that they want, send a. subpoena for that and we will deal with. it. But that's I mean, that has not been. done. We're talking about a download of. the phone, not specific, hey, please. give us the whatever it was that we. talked about in the second deposition. >> I love objections, Mr. Clipton. That's. how that's what I I'm up here for. Okay.

I love them. All right. But but um they. can't be endless. Okay. When there's a. court ruling, all right, so those are. the rules. Then when the way we got to. the download is based on your other. pleading. That's that's how I thought we. got to the download. I'm not just coming. out of the air saying turn over your. phone. Like somehow we have to it. morphed into that at this last hearing.

I just I want the information based on. the order provided to the courts for an. end camera review. The only information. that has been compiled is what she. testified to at the second deposition, your honor. >> So, how how can we get this information. without a download? >> They can send a subpoena and I'll work. on that. That's not that's without a. download, >> right? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> That's like we did with EF, but that is. different than us plugging in or saying, "Now, Mr. Brady, you need to go on your. phone and start taking screenshots of.

three years of messages." That's. different. And so if we're if we're just. talking about the information that she. that she's specifically discussed in her. depo, >> I I specifically address the three-year. period. I'm I'm talking about may I'm. asking can is there a way without. turning her phone over that you can. comply with this court order? That is. what I'm asking. >> Not fully. No. >> Okay. >> And then and that I think that's the. issue then because I can't again we get. into like peacemealing things. I can't.

peacemail it. There's there are there is. information that has been compiled by. her through the court order for the. second deposition. Everything else isn't. So I can't just. say, "Well, this is it." Because that's. not everything. This became because they. wanted a subpoena for her download of. her phone. That's what they filed in. July. It wasn't my filing. I didn't say, "Yeah, let's do download.". >> I know. But now we've progressed. So now. we're in a more specific area. >> Now they have filed an actual subpoena. asking to download her phone. If the if. the court is saying we're not doing.

that, but you need to give her what. you've compiled like we did with EF. because that was the court's order. That's different than what is going on. here right now. Your honor. >> Okay. I want Miss Bride again to comply. with my order. That's And so if she was. able to com compile that, can she. compile the things within the order? That's a yes or a no. >> No, your honor. That it's that is where. we're going to get to overly burdensome. >> Right. So now what is the solution. without turning her phone over? >> Hours and hours. >> So now compliance-wise, what is the.

solution without turning her phone over? >> Our solution was to allow us to. understand the materiality. >> I've gotten past that. >> I I know that's it. I mean, that is our. solution. So I guess we're at that. point. You can object more like I've. like I'm asking how can you if it's. overburdensome. give me a solution that would not be so. burdensome to Miss Bride again to comply. with the court's order. >> We don't believe that the court should.

order an extraction for the information. of the. >> I have ruled. >> Then again, your honor, it's going to. have to be just then an order stating. that she has to hand her phone over to. somebody for an extraction. Your honor, if I may, one of the two. affidavits that we filed this morning is. from another qualified expert at. Invista. And the affidavit outline the. proposed way that Invista could. affectuate this type of extraction and.

also a filter team process by which Jake. Green, who was the person who appeared. yesterday under oath and gave testimony. before the court, would be walled off. and would not have any access or. direction or involvement whatsoever in. the extraction since that was a concern. expressed by Miss Bride's council. yesterday. We've proposed a solution, your honor. We're simply asking that the. court enter an order allowing Miss Kayla. Nelson, who is the professional from. Invista, to perform the limited. extraction of the applications the court.

has outlined in its order and outlined. in our subpoenas. And Miss Nelson is. available and can be in Jacksonville. tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. to. complete the extraction. >> I'll hear Miss Bringham on that. solution. Your honor, we stand on we do not agree. with having an extraction of her phone. We believe it's a violation of her. privacy rights. We believe that we have. a right to know what the materiality is.

of what is being sought on her phone. I. understand the judge has already ruled. on those issues. That is our position. >> All right, I'll overrule the objection. Miss Bryan. turns her phone over at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. This court hearing is. concluded. >> Your honor, I apologize. I just want to. be sure. >> I've got to start writing, Miss Nelson. I've got a jury back there. What is it? >> I I understand. I just want to make sure. that we are giving uh Miss Nelson the. correct scope. So, is it both subpoenas. that have been issued by the defense?

>> Yes, with the correction. With the. correction, I'm going I went back. through the order. I misspoke yesterday. Okay. I did say that everything I'm. going to just say everything comes to me. in inc camera review and I will review. it and then release it from there. >> I did say yesterday that. released directly to you, but I'm just. going to do an in camera review of. everything. And Mr. Clifton, you can I. I'm the offer still remains. Do you want. to review the download after the fact to.

make objections to the disclosure that I. would consider prior to any disclosure? >> Yes, we want to be heard prior to. anything going to the defense. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> All right. I'm It's going to be a short. turnaround then. 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. >> Thank you, honor.

They don't. know.

Thank you. Good afternoon. >> Good afternoon. >> Have something. Uh, your honor, Jesse Derer on behalf of.

the defense. Mr. Fernandez is present, Mr. Hill present, Miss Day is present, and Miss Nepat is present. I do want to. put. I'm not so sure it's an objection at. this point, but I do think it's. important for the record that I'd like. just make a comment or profer uh. what could be perceived as an objection. at a later date. At this point in the trial, the court. has heard that the state attempted to.

get the lead detective, Detective. John's, to testify that he believed that. the firearm became completely disposed. of sometime in February or March of. 2022. That was what the attempted profer. and the attempted argument by the state. was. The record is clear as there was a court. reporter present for all of that. And. now the state is attempting to place an.

argument before the jury that the gun. made its way to Texas and in 2023. was reported stolen and a police report. was admitted and that this is a ruse. that the gun was never stolen and it was. some way to establish that uh the. firearm is in fact uh in Texas and and. disposed of and connected to John Bigger. Staff. Those are completely two.

different state theories and I didn't. have time to brief it during the lunch, but the case law is that the state. cannot go on two completely separate. theories of prosecution. And I believe. that is what is being attempted. I don't. think it's in any way even. a gray area. I think the attempted. profer was that the lead detective. believed one thing and both things. cannot be true. The firearm cannot go to.

Texas. The firearm cannot be reported. stolen in Texas and the lead detective. is under the impression and the state. tried to elicit that it had been. indefinitely disposed of in March or. February of 2021. And just because the court made a ruling. on the profer evidence, I don't believe. it's a distinction with the difference.

You can't lose an argument and then. pivot and then create a new theory of. prosecution. The prosecution has to be. the same. >> What do you what are you citing for that. propos? I mean, I'll I'll do some. research now that you brought it to my. attention, but I. >> I I am I'm citing what I know from. previous litigation experience. I do not. have a case. That's why I'm not saying. it's a formal objection. I'm not asking. for the court to take action. I believe. the case law is that they cannot.

>> move forward two separate and I will get. some case law research. So when you're. saying two theories of prosecution, are you okay? I I do I am familiar with. that. But what I hear you saying is. basically two theories related to. evidence.

Is is that also like two actual theories. of how someone committed a crime? not. necessarily. um two theories about how a piece of. evidence that may be missing. well is missing was somehow. isn't there a distinction between that. case law I mean I'm going to look it up. again it's been a really long time but. two different theories of prosecution. meaning how someone is how they get to.

prove the elements of the crime as. opposed to. prosecution theories related to. evidence. Does that am I. >> I understand exactly what you're saying. I don't think there's a difference. >> Okay. >> And I think that the in a solicitation. to commit firstdegree murder and in a. principle to commit first-degree murder. I don't see a distinction of the.

evidence in this case is that Mr. Fernandez somehow. became in possession of a 10 millimeter. firearm and which was used and given to. Henry Tenan in order to commit the. murder of Jared Bryan. I do think that. is what they're establishing to attempt. to establish the elements of this crime. >> Okay. So what you're saying now though. is pre pre- crime and what I heard you. say before and you can correct me if I'm.

wrong that's post crime. pre-rime. I think I it's been a long. time. I will look it up, but pre-rime I. think that you're right. Like the way. that they get to prove it. Um but. post crime meaning disposal of evidence. I mean it's often. things or are argued to jury we don't. know whatever. I've heard those. arguments a million times. >> I agree with that. if their if their.

argument was. >> we never found the firearm. We don't. know where the firearm went. But that's. not what I believe that the record. reflects at this moment in time. I think. the record reflects this moment in time. that the theory of the government is. that in one theory a detective John's. the lead detective was attempted to say. that it was disposed of indefinitely in. 2021 February March B.

the gun made its way to Texas and in a. false. u police report it was the serial number. of that firearm was written down in a. police report and reported stolen. >> Okay. >> Both of those things cannot be true. >> Okay. Has the state looked into this at. all? >> We have no response at this time. There's no reason to even discuss this. at this point. >> Okay. >> We have not alleged any arguments. They.

have no idea what we're going to argue. We are presenting evidence to this jury. Two things can be true at the same time. This is a non-issue for us to bring up. He wants to entertain an objection. I. think we need to get started with this. jury. Thank you. >> Okay. Is it an objection or you just bringing. it to my attention? >> I'm bringing it to the court's attention. that at this point I believe that it. started and that.

Mr. Mr. M. Rahi is right that right now. I have not lodged a formal objection, but it so we don't need to take this up. in further argument. I wanted just the. record to reflect where I thought the. evidence was at this point. >> Okay. All right. Let's bring in the. jury. >> I'm sorry, >> Mr. >> Okay. Well, we need just a moment for um. Can you come up and help?

It's not.

I'm going to step back just momentarily. I'll be right back.

Everyone follow the communication rules. even though you had your device. Is that.

correct? >> Okay, great. Let's get the witness back. on the witness stand. All right, agent. Good afternoon. You can just um retake the witness. stand. You're still under oath. Mr. Hill,

>> cross examination. >> Good afternoon, agent. >> Good afternoon, sir. >> How are you today? >> Doing well. Yourself? >> I'm doing well. I want to run back. through some of the direct examination. you provided to the state. Primarily, it started with the discovery. of the truck. at the residence of Jimmy Jones. And I'm. going to just show you what's previously. been entered as defense. 56A. Is that published on your screen, sir?

>> Yes, sir. I can see it. >> Now, when you were looking for this. truck, you said that was a big part of. what your duties were. You guys were all. actively looking for this truck. Is that. correct? Did I understand you correctly? >> Yes, sir. Okay. And this included, from. my understanding, people were flying in. helicopters looking for this truck. Is. that your understanding? >> I'm not aware of the helicopters. >> You and Agent Simmons were actively. looking for this vehicle. Is that. correct? >> Yes, sir. >> And you located in the backyard of Mr.

Jones's house, but if I understood your. testimony on direct examination, you. used location data from Henry Tenan's. device. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So, I want to make sure we're. clear on this. This was not that it was. reported like uh someone called 911 to. your knowledge or Crimestoppers. >> We reviewed Google location data. Yes, sir. >> Not information provided by Jimmy Jones. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And from your understanding at.

this part of the investigation, the. truck had been published to the media. sometime around March of 2022. Is that. your understanding? >> I would say around that time frame. Yes, sir. And it has been blasted on local. media and social media. >> Yes, sir. >> And you and your fellow law enforcement. partners, everyone was in essence on the. lookout for this vehicle. >> Yes, sir. >> Fair to say it was the most soughtafter. vehicle in Northeast Florida during that. time period. >> I don't know of any other one. So, I.

would agree that it was very uh we were. looking for it. Yes, >> absolutely. And as you said, Miss. Stiffler asked you how you got into law. enforcement. And I believe your. testimony was this was a passion of. yours. You wanted to help the community. Is that accurate? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And you seem like the kind of guy. that that's exactly what you would do. Okay. You're not going to let a criminal. get away with something if you can. investigate it and bring it to a. courtroom. That'd be a fair statement. >> Yes, sir. >> So, on October 14th, you find this. vehicle. Is this exactly how you found. it in defense exhibit that's published. on your screen?

>> Yes, sir. Literally, you drove by with. that location data and you could see it. directly from the street. >> From the street. Yes, sir. >> And when you learned that Jimmy Jones. was the resident there, is it your. understanding that Mario Fernandez has. no connection to that property? >> I never I have no knowledge of him. having any connection to that property. Yes, sir. >> Certainly during that time period, you. would be communicating with other law. enforcement partners involved in the. investigation. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So that'd be a fair statement that.

if it was connected to Mario Fernandez, you would have had that knowledge, >> I would believe. So yes, >> because you were aware that the PTOAC. property was a rental property of Mr. Fernandez. >> Yes, sir. >> You had been to that other property. before, correct? >> Yes, sir. >> Now, once you enter this property, my. understanding is that Mr. Jones was. absolutely cooperative. >> He was cooperative. Yes, sir. spoke to. you with no problem. >> Yes, sir.

>> Okay. Offered for you and your fellow. law enforcement officers to come into. the backyard, take a look at the truck, and retrieve it. >> He gave us consent to look in the truck. or to look in his backyard. Yes, sir. >> Certainly. And what in law enforcement, you guys would call that the curlage, right? >> Um, >> as far as the backyard, the outside of. the residence, >> it would I would the curdage is more the. edge of the property, not necessarily. like the backyard. So maybe like the. property line, areas along the um the. sidewalk, that's more curlage. Uh but.

the backyard, I wouldn't consider that. curlage. >> Once he gave you that consent, okay, you. could walk around that backyard as much. as you wanted. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And certainly if you wanted to. take a look in the trash can and the. recycling bin on the side of the house, you could have done that with the. consent of Mr. Jones. >> If I had his consent. Yes, sir. >> Okay. And you did have his consent to go. in the backyard and he actually offered. you consent to search his home. >> Uh, a comment was made to it, but that. if I wanted to go in his house, I could.

>> Absolutely. Any reason to think he. wouldn't have let you search the entire. backyard had you chosen to do that? >> I don't think there's any reason to. think he wouldn't have. >> Now, at this point, you had learned that. Mr. Jones was a family friend of Mr. Tennant, correct? um after recovering the truck or. locating the truck, I should say. >> And you were there at the property? >> That's when I learned he was a family. Uh they've known each other for a while. Yes, sir.

>> And you learned that Mr. Jones was not a. mechanic? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So, that vehicle wasn't pushed in. that backyard because it was going to. receive any type of repair work. >> Yes, sir. >> I want to make sure the jury's clear. Mr. Jones is not like a work from home. mechanic. >> He is not. No, sir. And that truck was. not pushed into that backyard because it. was anticipated that Mr. Jones was going. to do any type of repair on that truck. >> Correct. >> As far as you understood, that truck was. pushed in that backyard by Henry Tenon.

with the intent of it being stored in. that backyard for however long. >> Mr. Jones gave a statement multiple. times of how long he would was okay with. h having it there based on the fact that. other people. had done that and he had been through it. before and he didn't want it left there. >> Months though. Could be there for months. as your understanding. >> Yes, sir. >> And it had been there for several months. is your understanding.

>> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And you only located it because of. the data from Henry Tennon's phone after. his arrest. >> Yes, sir. >> Now, once you receive consent to go in. this backyard, okay, this would you. agree that locating this truck was a. major break in this investigation? Yes, sir. Okay. >> Aside from the driving while license. suspended arrest of Henry Tenon, which. we all understood was to further the. homicide investigation. Is that your. understanding? >> It was part of it. Yes, sir. >> But now the truck, which has been.

blasted in the media since March of. 2022, has now been located in October. That is the next huge break in this. case. Would you agree with that? >> Yes, sir. But at this time and even to. this day, no hom no murder weapon had. been recovered. >> Correct, sir. >> And you work for alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. >> Yes, sir. >> ATF. And it goes without saying that. part of your job is involved in. investigating firearms. Correct. >> Yes, sir.

>> Okay. Not only here in state court, but. across the street at the federal. courthouse. >> Yes, sir. >> With the US Attorney's Office. And as. Miss Stiffler said, you work for the. Department of Justice. Yes, ma'am. Our. sir pardon. >> take orders basically from the president. of the United States. >> There's a chain of command, sir. >> Absolutely. Okay. But you investigate. firearms and you try to make sure. they're not in the hands of people that. should not have them. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Including convicted felons. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So, now you've located this truck.

Huge missing piece of the puzzle, but. yet the murder weapon is still missing. And I'm sure in your training and your. experience, I believe you said you've. been an ATF agent for approximately 18. years at this point. >> Yes, sir. >> You certainly had other law enforcement. officers show up on the scene that. afternoon, correct? >> Yes, sir. >> Even Mr. Jones commented, "How many cops. were there?". >> Yes, sir. You. >> Jacksonville Sheriff's Office? >> Yes, sir. >> Jacksonville Beach. >> Yes, sir. >> ATF? >> Yes, sir. >> Am I missing any other agencies that.

were there? >> Believe that was all, sir. Okay. Safe to. say it was dozens of officers. >> Not dozens. No, sir. >> A lot. >> I'd say approximate 10. >> Okay. But enough people that if you. wanted to, you certainly could go in. that backyard and look in the bushes to. see if a firearm has been thrown in the. bushes. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. You could have looked in the trash. cans and in the recycling bin if you. chose to. >> If we ch um Yes, sir. We had that. opportunity. And I have not been to this. particular property, but by looking at.

the picture, it looks like it may even. have a crawl space underneath the house. But if there is a crawl space, certainly. with the consent of Mr. Jones, you or. fellow officers could look underneath. the house to see if there's a firearm. >> Yes, sir. >> You guys could bring out metal detectors. and search the property to see if a. firearm has been buried somewhere in. this backyard. >> That is an option, sir. Yes. Certainly. >> Something that that happens, right? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in your long.

experience as a law enforcement officer, certainly there's three ways you can. search a property, right? You can do it. by consent. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. You can do it based upon a search. warrant. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> And which you did receive in this. particular case to to retrieve the. truck. >> Yes, sir. >> A search warrant. Even though you had. consent, you guys took that extra step. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And then you also have exigent. circumstances. Meaning if you're afraid. that there could be destruction of. evidence, you can also enter a property.

and search. >> Yes, sir. >> But in this case, you didn't need to. exercise extrogen circumstances or get a. warrant. Okay. You could go back because. Mr. Jones gave consent. >> He gave consent for his backyard. Yes, sir. >> And they even have dogs that are trained. to search for firearms and other. contraband. Correct. >> Yes, sir. Okay. And I'm assuming you. working for the federal government, you. certainly have access to so many. different resources if you believe. they're necessary and you want to.

utilize them. Is that a fair statement? >> We have access to resources. Yes, sir. >> Absolutely. Okay. But in this particular. case, for whatever reason, chose not to. exercise any of those resources or the. consent of Mr. Jones in order to search. inside of that property. Correct. At that point in time, we were concerned. with get um with securing the the truck. We had had consent. I know that a. warrant was being drafted. I didn't know.

the status of the warrant at that time. So, when I was talking with Mr. Jones, um again, I was I mentioned earlier I. was building rapport talking with him. and wanted to make sure that he. understood that, you know, we were. focused on the truck. Um this was the. first time that Mr. Jones had come up in. the investigation. and. you know based on the fact that he was. speaking with us um his answers were. consistent and the fact that there was.

no attempt to hide the truck that was. clearly visible from the street. We use. those facts to to kind of figure out. where or to maybe take where Mr. Jones. was in this. >> Sure. In 18 years of law enforcement. experience, it's not uncommon for. someone who is hiding something to be. overly cooperative with law enforcement. You've encountered that before. >> Not very often, sir. >> But it does happen.

>> I haven't been so fortunate, but. >> but you've certainly it's not a unique. circumstance where someone is so. cooperative they say, "Please, you can. search my vehicle." They end up. searching the vehicle and they find a. kilo of cocaine or they find guns or a. body. >> Yes, that happens, sir. Yes. >> So, just because somebody is cooperative. doesn't necessarily mean that you're not. going to find something that would be. fruitful for your investigation. >> That's correct, sir.

>> And you would agree we have no idea what. could have been found in that property. >> Yes, sir. Are you aware that. just a few weeks ago on July 30th, FDLE. produced a report doing ballistics. testings that had Jimmy Jones name. listed on the report? >> Okay, wait. Let me see you at sidebar.

You may proceed.

>> Agent, my question was. I understand at the time you said that. Mr. Jones's name had not come up in your. investigation. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. Are you aware that just a. couple weeks ago, Mr. Jones's name has. been brought up in the investigation? >> I was not aware of that. No, sir. >> Based upon his name not coming up at the. time, my understanding you did not take a DNA. swab for Mr. Jones. Is that correct?

>> That's correct, sir. >> You didn't do any additional testing. there at the property other than. recovering the truck. Is that correct? >> Correct, sir. And I understand we. belvered the point for quite a few. minutes. There was no additional. searching of the property. Is that. correct? >> Correct, sir. >> I understand the state asked you about. the 10 mm firearm and I believe your. testimony was is that you either had. only encountered it once in your career.

and that you testified. I believe that. you believed it was a rare firearm. Is. that correct? I believe I testified that I have not. come across one outside of this. investigation. >> But for the last two years, you've been. a firearms instructor up in Brunswick, Georgia. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Are you aware that in this. particular case, it's been alleged that. a Glock 10 millimeter was the homicide. weapon? >> I'm aware of that. Yes, sir. Are you. aware that Glock has been producing.

three models of a 10 millimeter as far. back as 1991? >> I understand that Glock makes a 10mm. pistol. I am not versed in the history. of the Glock 10mm pistol. >> Are you aware they make three different. models of that. >> at this moment? Yes, sir. >> Okay. And you understand Glock to be a. well-known firearms maker? >> Yes, sir. They produce lots of firearms. >> Yes, sir. >> No dispute. They're probably one of the.

most popular firearms manufacturers in. the United States. >> Yes, sir. >> Law enforcement carries Glocks. Many. occasions. >> Typically a 9 millimeter, maybe a 40. Yes, sir. >> But 10 millimeters are also produced. >> They are produced. >> Sure. >> So, you would agree it's not necessarily. the rarest firearm out there. >> I believe I said it's not very common. I'm I didn't specify to the rarity of. it. I just said in my own personal uh. experience, this is the first time I've.

come across one. >> The state asked you about your. interview. Were you aware that during the. investigation, law enforcement went to. Beaches Pawn Shop on Third Street in. Jacksonville Beach to look for 10. millimeters? >> I believe they canvas different uh gun. stores. Yes, sir. >> Are you aware that at just one gun store. they located six purchases of a 10 mm?

>> Sir, I think if you were to put that in. perspective of all the guns sold in a. gun store, I don't think it's that. significant. >> How many gun stores do you think are in. Jacksonville? >> I couldn't tell you, sir. Would you. agree there's more than one? >> I would agree. Yes, sir. >> So to have six at one, that's not. necessarily insignificant. >> Again, you're talking about a numbers. game where you had to put that in. relation of all the other guns sold. >> Sure. We'll let the jury make that.

determination. Now, Mr. Agent Stangle, you testified that you interviewed John. Bigger Staff. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. Part of that investigation was based. upon the fact that at one time he owned. a Glock 10 millimeter. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> You're understanding that he became a. convicted felon in 2017. >> About that time. Yes, sir. >> And you at the time were not a firearms. instructor. You were an active agent for.

the ATF. Is that correct? >> In 2017. >> Yes, sir. >> Yes, sir. >> And you understand the federal system. You've worked in the federal court. before. Yes, sir. >> Have you been a case agent before? >> Yes, sir. >> So, you understand that when a person is. arrested or indicted and they have to. participate in pre-trial release, as Mr. Biggerstaff did, he had to turn over his. firearms? >> Yes, sir. >> And I believe the state showed you a. firearm inventory list. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> May I approach the evidence? >> Yes.

An agent, the state showed you. what has been marked. as exhibit 190. Your honor, may I. approach the witness? >> Yes, you may. >> You recognize that inventory list, do. you, sir? >> Yes, sir. >> Now, I know that's handwritten, but your. understanding is that would be provided. to pre-trial release. >> I believe it's pre-trial services. Yes, sir. And ultimately the state kind of. alluded like nobody goes to the house.

and searches to make sure they've turned. over those firearms. Is that your. understanding? >> That is my understanding. >> But if a federal magistrate judge orders. you to turn over your firearms, you. would expect they would follow that. order. >> I would expect. Yes, sir. >> There's consequences if you do not. >> Yes, sir. >> What would be a consequence to your. knowledge if you violate the terms of. your pre-trial release? you would be. incarcerated. >> until such time as your case is. ultimately resolved. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. >> Mr. Biggerstaff, to your knowledge, he. was never incarcerated after being.

released on pre-trial release, was he? >> I thought he did serve some time. >> But he didn't violate his pre-trial. release, did he? >> Not that I'm aware of. and this. inventory that was produced. If you can. do your best, I know it's handwritten, but if you can see if you can find the. Glock 10 millimeter on that list and. identify by what number is associated. with it. >> Uh, looks like it'd be. item number seven, Glock. 40, which would be the model. I honestly.

can't make out the. looks like four characters next to it, but it looks like the show number is. BBGL. possibly 770. >> Okay. And if you can tell us, read for. the jury what is number six. >> Glock 27. Looks like there's a 40 next to it. And. it looks like the serial number maybe. RBP38.

and possibly a six. >> Okay. Would you agree that number six. and number seven are written right on. top of each other? >> Yes, sir. >> And in fact, the serial number for. number six and number seven are almost. riding right on top of each other. >> They're on adjacent lines. Yes, sir. >> But pretty close. >> Pretty close. Yes, sir. Now agent, it was asked on direct. examination. One second here.

N partner corrected me. Mr. Bigger. stuff, my understanding, did violate. pre-trial release, but it was by way of. a drug charge. Are you familiar with. that? >> Now you mentioned it. Yes, sir. >> Not a firearms possession charge. Is. that correct? >> That is correct, sir.

>> I'm showing you that same. affidavit. Can you see that on your screen, sir? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. You said it was number seven that. you identified as the 10 millimeter. >> Yes, sir. >> And number six was a Glock 27. >> Yes, sir. >> I'm going to come back to that in just a. moment. But it's understood that Mr.

Bigger Staff owned a 10 millimeter in. 2016, got in trouble with federal. authorities, had to turn those firearms. over to someone outside of his home. >> Yes, sir. >> That's how we got this inventory. correct? >> Yes, sir. Your understanding is those went into. the possession of other bigger staff. family members. >> I believe he we were told that Juan. Bigger Staff took the guns. >> Now, if John Bigger Staff had come back. into possession of those firearms, he. would be violating both state and. federal law. Correct.

>> Yes, sir. >> And certainly if he was caught, if he. was prosecuted in state court, your. understanding is that's a three-year. mandatory prison sentence. That your. understanding? I'm sorry I'm not overly. versed on the prison the sentencing for. for Florida law. >> Certainly could go to prison in federal. court as well. >> Yes, sir. >> No dispute that had he been caught with. a firearm, he could be prosecuted in. both state court and federal court. >> State or federal. >> I'm sorry. >> State or federal? >> State or federal. Yes, sir. Okay. To. your knowledge, he's never been arrested.

for a firearms possession charge since. his original felony offense in 2016. >> Correct, sir. And to arrest an individual, what do you. need as far as level of proof? Just to. make an arrest, >> probable cause. And. >> you would agree that's a much lower. standard than having someone convicted. in a court of law. >> Yes, sir. >> You just basically have to have a little. more based upon totality of. circumstances in order to arrest him. >> I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question? >> Yes, sir. In order to arrest Mr. bigger.

staff. You would just need probable. cause that he was in possession of a. firearm. >> We had the probable cause. Yes, sir. >> At this time, he's never been arrested. to your knowledge for possession of a. firearm. To. >> my knowledge, no, sir. >> The state asked you that when you went. to his residence whether or not you saw. any evidence of I think gun possession. You testified to this gun cabinet on the. back porch. >> Yes, sir. >> And you basically said it was kind of a. beat up. Wouldn't even close anymore. >> It's my remembering of it. Yes, sir.

>> Had garden tools in the back of it. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Certainly just repurposed is what. it appeared. >> Yes, sir. >> He didn't get arrested for that, did he? >> No, sir. >> Because that's not considered a firearm. component, ammunition, or a firearm. >> Correct. >> So, he could have that. There's nothing. wrong with that. >> Correct, sir. >> Where it came from, you have no idea. >> Believe he has had it. Correct. >> Whether or not it was returned to him. empty and just placed on his back porch, you have no evidence. say one way or.

another. >> Correct. >> Certainly has no relation to Mario. Fernandez. >> Not to my knowledge. >> In reference to the gun cabinet, right? >> Yes, sir. >> No. >> And with regards to. Mr. Bigger Staff, John, your. understanding is that he testified or it. was provided he's not given a firearm to. Mario Fernandez. >> I'm not aware of Mr. Bigger's testimony, sir?

>> You aware that he was offered immunity? >> I believe so. >> Can you explain to the court what. immunity means from your understanding. as a law enforcement officer? >> That if he had committed a crime, he. wouldn't be held uh criminally. responsible for it. >> That he would not be held criminally. responsible. >> Yes, sir. Okay. >> So, in this particular case, Mario. Fernandez is being prosecuted for. firstdegree murder. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> Capital offense. >> Yes, sir. Okay. Mr. Bigger Staff, if he. was involved in that, could either be.

charged as a principal or as an. accessory. Correct. >> He could be. Yes, sir. >> And he's been offered immunity, meaning. that if he had been involved in that. case at all, had he provided a firearm. to Mr. Fernandez, he would be immune. from prosecution. >> Yes, sir. >> Meaning that he could tell Miss Stiffler. and Mr. Ms. Rahi, yes. I gave a gun to him and he would be. held completely. He'd be okay. He. wouldn't be prosecuted. >> depending on the terms of the immunity. Yes, sir. >> As long as he told the truth.

>> Yes, sir. >> Your understanding is he did not accept. that immunity? >> That's my understanding. Yes, sir. >> To your acknowledge, he has not. implicated Mr. Fernandez. >> Uh, no, he has not. >> You further interviewed Juan Bigger. Staff, correct? >> Correct. >> And he was a law enforcement officer in. Texas. >> Yes. Did he provide any information that. furthered your investigation into Mario.

Fernandez? >> No, sir. >> He also was offered immunity. Is that. your understanding? >> Believe so. >> And again, same as his father, had he. had any involvement in a firstdegree. murder, he would be immune from. prosecution if he cooperated with law. enforcement. >> Yes, sir. >> But ultimately, the jury will decide his. credibility. both of these gentlemen, but your understanding they provided no. information that would further the. prosecution of Mr. Fernandez.

>> We I believe we received just more. conflicting statements. >> and the jury ultimately you would agree. will decide whether or not they're. credible or not. >> That is up to them. Yes, sir. >> Now, Mr. Bigger Staff one was a law. enforcement officer in Texas at the time. of that interview. He. >> said one. >> Yes, sir. >> Yes, sir. And I believe the state. elicited. that in June of 2023, let me back up. When you interviewed. Juan Bigger Staff at the state. attorney's office, he agreed to wear a. wire. Is that correct?

>> Yes, sir. >> A recording device. Yes, sir. >> Yes, sir. So, not really what I'm. wearing, but a concealed recording. device. >> Yes, sir. >> He actually had two of those on him. Is. that your understanding? >> Mhm. And at the time he was an. undercover narcotics officer in Texas. >> Believe he was a narcotics detective. His capacity I'm not aware of. >> He was an experienced law enforcement. officer. >> Yes, sir. >> And he agreed to cooperate with his. fellow law enforcement partners here in. Jacksonville. >> He was resistant.

>> We wire against his father. >> uh to cooperate. >> But he did cooperate. >> He was here, sir. >> Well, let's be clear. He came to the state attorney's office, correct? >> Yes, sir. Okay. >> You and the state attorney's office and. fellow law enforcement asked him to wear. two recording devices and to go speak. with his father in furtherance of the. search of a 10 millimeter. Correct? >> Yes, sir. >> And ultimately, he did agree to do that.

>> He did do that. >> He may have been resistant to wear a. wire and go speak to his own father, but. he ultimately agreed to do it. >> He agreed to do it. Yes, sir. You made sure that he didn't have an. opportunity to contact his father prior. to leaving the state attorney's office. with those recording devices. Correct. >> I believe precautions were taken. >> as to whether or not as the state tried. to elicit on direct that he somehow gave. any type of indication to his father. You don't have any direct evidence that. he tipped off his father?

>> Not directly, sir. >> Okay. You weren't there, correct? >> I was not there. >> You just got to listen to the recording. when he brought it back. >> Yes, sir. And he did record. >> Yes. >> Whether or not the devices captured. everything or not, whether you can blame. that on one bigger staff, you don't have. any evidence to support that. You would. agree with that? >> I just have the end result. Yes, sir. >> But ultimately didn't gather any. information that was related to Mario. Fernandez. >> Just that the guns were supposed to show. up on Well, I cannot.

>> I'm sorry. No, >> my question specifically. No, no. The. state can't just tell you what to say by. shaking. >> No, no. I'm apolog. I'm sorry, ma'am. >> Let me have the jury step out for just a. moment.

All right, agent. Everyone may be. seated. Agent, let me have you step out. into the Annie room. Okay. Yes, sir. All.

right. Please let the record reflect. that the agents off the witness stand. Um, Mr. Hill, you started to address. something. I'm going to give you the. proper venue. Not in front of the. witness, not in front of the jury.

>> Sher, the witness went to start. answering a question and stopped. himself. I observed the state attorney's. office shaking their head, giving. acknowledgement to the witness in front. of the jury to answer a question in a. particular way. Entirely improper. They. cannot direct a witness on what to say. And that's exactly what they were doing. There's video cameras throughout the. courtroom. your honor can watch a replay. yourself. That was the indication I got. The witness was smart enough to stop and. I can hear Mr. Ms. Rahi speaking and I.

would ask for you not to interrupt. >> Okay. >> I would ask for the defense council to. address the court and not me. >> I want you both to address me, okay? And. then I'll let the state respond. Was there head shaking? I was reading. something so I didn't see anything. >> Yes, we're sitting here looking at each. other, shaking our heads. Mr. Hill is. asking a line of question that opens up.

the doors to a lot of answers. And the. witness is looking at everybody, myself. and Mr. Hill and Mr. Ms. Rahi asking if. he can answer. I'm justiculating to draw. his attention to the court. The court is. the only one who can answer whether a. witness can answer a question or not. I. don't think Mr. Hill can ask a question. not like the answer that's being given. and cut him off. But I mean this whole. line of questioning is it's opening up. the door. >> What do you believe it's implicating?

>> I think if he's asking him questions. he's opening the door to what was said. on this wire. He's asking can I. >> Okay. So that's what I'm asking. I'm I'm. also I don't know what the evidence is. And so was he instructed not to go down. a certain line or tell say something. >> in pre-trials? I like all witnesses. advise them as to the rules of evidence. including hearsay. Your honor has. already seen this witness once on his. own bring up. I don't want to get into. hearsay. I think he's unsure of how to. answer. Um if I am asking him questions,

of course I can say, of course you can. answer. But if Mr. Hill asks him a. question and he's responsively answering. the question, he can continue to answer. And he's stopping himself because he's. looking back at Mr. Hill and looking at. us and he I don't know if you want to. instruct him that he needs to draw his. attention to the court and ask the court. whether he can answer or not but. >> so. okay let me let me address that one. point in particular. I need a heads up um I don't know he's.

just a name on a list for me I don't. know what his involvement is or what. he's reviewed if there if there is an. instruction saying hey you cannot get. into this line because it like if. there's something sensitive or he's. walking a fine line, I kind of need to. know because generally speaking, what. the process would be is I would tell the. witness, you know, look at me, ask for a. break or whatever and then we can. address some issue that wouldn't cause a.

potential mistrial. And so, Mr. Hill, with that explanation, do you. believe that was what's going on or you. think that it was delivery of an ant? I. don't know what he what's been presented. to the jury is he shows up and there's. an F-150 there and he didn't search and. then he's and then but now the. cross-examination is getting into. investigative techniques. Um and I don't. know his level of involvement. Is that a. fair assessment of what's going on? Are. you still maintaining that somehow.

they're trying to signal him? Because. I'm then I'm going to ask the witness. So your honor, if you recall from the. direct examination, he went into his. discussion of when Juan Biggerstaff wore. a wire to go and meet with his father. >> Yes. >> My line of question, and I believe my. question was, you did not gather any. information related to Mario Fernandez. Not what was said on the wire. It was. simply you didn't gather any. information. It was similar to my. previous questions about the property,

about the truck. you gather no. information related to Mario Fernandez. The witness started to testify and he. did stop himself. That's when I saw the. state attorney's office seemingly. acknowledging to him that he could. continue his answer and as I stated that. they believed I had opened the door to. discuss the contents of the wire, which. is absolutely not what the question was. It was did you gather information. related to Mario Fernandez? >> Okay. Um,

from your response, Mr. Hill, are you. are you saying that there could have. been some like he's looking to say, "Is. this okay from the state?" Is that what. you're saying? >> I'm not going to go as far as to say. that the state attorney's office was. seeking to put words in his mouth. >> Right. But you're seeking his approval. whether to go forward or not. What I. observed was him, which he's done. several times, even in his direct. examination, where he was seeking.

for what to say, either internally or. externally. >> Okay? >> I simply observe the state attorney's. office nodding their head or firm it, whether they're doing it to each other. All I can say is that I have 16 people. sitting in this box and a witness up. here, and they're right beside the. jurors. That's why I wanted to make sure. that that was shut down. >> All right. Okay, we're going to stop. I think that. this is I'm going to chalk this up to a. miscommunication. I'm going to bring the.

agent back in. He has been a very. careful witness, and I've said it. multiple times, like he he appears to be. having some type of. internal communication with himself, like trying to follow rules or whatever. So, I'm going to I'm going to let him. agent, if you'll come all the way. forward. All right. If you could just pause right. there for a moment. Um, I've said this about you. You seem to be.

very conscientious and very like being. very careful with your wording. Is that. a fair assessment? >> Sure. It's a habit. It's okay. So, um, with. >> Okay. All right. Yes. this one. I'm I'm going to ask this based on. what's been going what's. what's happened during the trial. Do you.

feel like you've mentioned Let me say. this. You've mentioned the word hearsay. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. Are you trying to avoid that some. way in your testimony? >> Obviously, you might be. >> Yes. I'm I'm trying to um not state. anything that I was told during the. investigation because I understood that. I'm not allowed to do that. >> Okay. So, which is very, like I said, you're very.

conscientious. All right. But what's. happening is that and what I need you to. do and it's fine and I appreciate your. careful um observant of the rules. um but if you have an a situation where. you believe that whatever the question. is um would call for you to do something. that in your mind would be. impermissible. I don't know what you. discussed and what you didn't discuss.

All you have to do is turn to me and. say, "Your honor, may I?" Okay. >> And then I can make a ruling and then I. think everything will stay kind of in. bounds and then the lawyers if I have a. question I'll bring them up to sidebar. and I will hear from them. But you don't. I don't want you to feel like you can't. seek court intervention if you believe. um that whatever you're going to say. A. lot of times this happens with. detectives hypothetically where they. might think that they comment on a. constitutional right or they comment and.

they're they're apprehensive and they. know the implications of blurting. something out which I appreciate. Okay. But if you your honest answer to their. focus question is something that you. believe through your training and your. experience being you know a federal. agent. If you think that um is going to. cause some concern for you, you can seek. my approval. So, you need to avoid kind. of looking to the state for approval. because they don't say yay or nay about.

anything that goes on in court about. what comes in, what doesn't. They have. to ask me. So, I'm the ultimate decision. maker in that process. And then it gives. the defense an opportunity to be heard. if they want to be heard related to. whether it should come in and come out. But if it's a unilateral glance and then. you continue because they say so, um it. it creates an issue. Okay. >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right. So, I'm not getting on you, but I just wanted to let you know I am. an avenue that if you don't have to be. so careful and reflective. If you your.

natural answer is X and you believe it. it caused a problem, you can say your. honor, may I? And then that's a perfect. way for me to intervene appropriately. So, um, would any side like to say. anything to the detect, I'm sorry, to. the agent before we continue? >> Nothing. >> As far as his testimony related to that. issue? >> No, your honor. I believe the court. instructed him appropriately. >> Okay. So, again, me and you, we're on the same line.

>> Yes, sir. >> You look at me, say, may I? I'll look at. them and then we'll handle it from. there. So, don't feel so apprehensive. Just we can keep going, but I want you. to know I am a resource for you if there. is an issue with your testimony. I know. I'm learn I'm learning a lot. I have. limited information about the case prior. to trial. I'm learning the full scope of. whatever you've done kind of real time. with the jury. Okay? So, it's not like I. have some kind of working knowledge of. what you did and didn't do. And I don't. know what you're trying to stay away. from and what you're not. I learned it.

from the lawyers. Okay. >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right. All right. so we can um get. back started. >> Yes, sir.

You know what your question was, Mr. Hill? >> I'm sorry. >> You remember your last question? >> I believe my last question was. >> I just wanted to make sure you didn't. need to get back where you were. >> You know where you were? >> I do. Yes, sir.

resume. >> Thank you.

Welcome back members of the jury. Everyone may be seated. All right. Mr. Hill, you may continue. Thank you. in communications with his father. Is. that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> And when he returned either to the state. attorney's office or to where where did. he actually return after that recording. session?

>> I think we met with him out in public. >> after you had an opportunity. to reconvene. Did your investigative efforts provide. anything specific to Mario Fernandez? >> Not that I recall. >> The state asked you about one bigger. staff and a June 2023 police report that. was filed. Do you recall that?

>> Uh June 2023. Yes, sir. >> And that was in regards to one bigger. staff's undercover police vehicle being. stolen from his home. >> I believe it was his police vehicle. Yes, sir. and that it was reported that. several firearms were stolen out of that. vehicle. >> Believe it was two, sir. >> And one of those was a Glock 27. >> Yes, sir. >> But it bared the serial number on what. was on the report of the Glock 40, the. 10 millimeter. >> Yes, sir. >> Now, you're looking at that inventory.

that I showed you earlier that was. produced after Mr. Bigger Staff was. federally indicted. >> Yes, sir. Okay. And I asked you to. identify where the Glock 40, the 10. millimeter was, and that was number. seven. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. >> And number six, what is that? >> That is the Glock 27. >> Okay. And that's what you understood was. reported stolen, correct? >> The Glock 27. Yes. >> And you would agree that the serial. number for the Glock 27 and the Glock 10.

millimeter are right on top of each. other. Well, real quick, just to. clarify, you have a Glock 27 that was. reported stolen. If you're saying if. that's the same one in this inventory. without the serial number, I can't. discern that. >> And I'm not asking you to make that. determination. >> Okay. >> I'm just You've confirmed that a Glock. 27 was reported stolen by one bigger. staff in Texas. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. And it on the report, it listed. the serial number for the Glock 10. millimeter. >> Yes, sir. And you would agree on this inventory.

that a Glock 27 is listed immediately. above the Glock 10 millimeter? >> Yes, sir. >> And ultimately the jury can make a. determination as to whether or not those. tie to each other, but you would agree. they're right on top of each other, including the serial numbers in some. occasion almost touching each other. >> Yes, sir. >> You understood that Mr. Bigger Staff. remained a law enforcement officer past. June of 2023? I do not know the date. that he separated from his agency.

>> And ultimately, one bigger staff has not. been arrested in connection with this. case. Correct. >> Yes, sir. >> I have a moment with council on. >> Yes.

Thank you, Agent. I don't have any. further questions for you. >> Redirect.

>> Do you need this? Sure, I'll take it. Thanks. >> Agent Stangle, Jimmy Jones was never a. suspect or never discussed as a suspect. between you and members of a homicide. team. Is that correct? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And Mr. Hill asked you a bunch of. questions about some legal issues. between the federal system and the state. system. Um, are you you are obviously. aware that as a law enforcement officer.

or a state law enforcement officer or. state prosecutor cannot give federal. immunity? >> Oh, federal immunity. Correct. >> Mr. Hill asked you a bunch of questions. about a police report. >> Yes. >> I'm going to ask you some follow-up. ones. Um, you mentioned in your direct that. members of ATF had spoken with Juan. Bigger Staff prior to your interview. with John Bigger Staff in November of. 2022. >> I'm sorry, one more time.

>> You mentioned other ATF agents in Texas. had spoken conducted an interview with. Juan Bigger Staff prior to your. interview with John Bigger Staff or Mr. Juan Bigger Staff Wire. >> Yes. Um, and those same agents in Texas. were the ones that alerted you to this. police report in June of 2023. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Mr. Hill asked you about some details of. that police report. So, I want to ask. you some clarifications on that. The. police report Mr. Juan Bigger Staff. filed was not with his own agency.

It was with a separate law enforcement. agency. >> Correct. The Dallas Police Department. >> And Mr. One bigger staff reported that. his patrol car and two firearms have. been taken from his residence. >> Correct. >> Where did they locate that vehicle? >> I believe it was just down the street. I. It was same street looked to be maybe a. couple blocks down by the numbers. >> And on that police report, he. specifically gave. the serial number of that Glock 10. millimeter as having been stolen from.

his vehicle. This BB. GL770. >> Yes. >> And he did not contact anyone involved. in the Jared Brideigan homicide about. this police report or about him writing. a serial number on any reports? >> That's correct. >> You found out because ATF in Texas. contacted you because his agency opened. an investigation into him.

>> Yes. >> And Mr. Hill asked you that whether Mr. Juan Bigger Staff remained employed at. his law enforcement agency after this. incident. He did, but he was actually. placed on administrative leave pending. investigation. >> Yes. >> And members of ATF um the agents that. had previously interviewed him went and. conducted follow-up interviews on this. matter. >> Yes, they continue to interview him. >> And Mr. Juan Bigger Staff in fact. retained a criminal defense attorney for. those interviews. >> Yes.

And Mr. Juan Bigger Staff no longer. works as a sworn law enforcement. officer. >> That is my understanding. >> Yes. No further questions. Thank you. Agent, >> any followup? >> Briefly, may I say at defense table? >> Okay. >> Agent. Juan Bakerstaff did not report that a 10. mm Glock 40 Gen 4 was stolen. He. reported a Glock 27. Is that correct?

>> A Glock 27 was stolen? Yes. >> And a Glock 27 is not a 10 millimeter. Correct. >> No, sir. >> And as far as Mr. Bigger Staff and his. employment with the law enforcement. agency in Texas, he remained employed. until he moved back to Jacksonville. Is. that your understanding? >> Uh, again, I know I'm not sure when he. separated from his agency. And as far as when his vehicle was. stolen, is it your understanding he.

reported it to the agency in which the. jurisdiction where his home and vehicle. were actually located? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So, he actually reported it to the. correct law enforcement office and the. jurisdiction where the vehicle was and. where he resided at the time. >> I believe yes, that is true. I think. even the responding officers felt like. something didn't add up in that. But again, he reported a crime in the jurisdiction. in which the crime occurred.

Uh I'm thinking he did. I don't know the. jurisdictional lines of where he lived. >> Understood. >> But agent, as you sit here, you have no. reason to believe he reported it to a. jurisdiction outside of where that crime. occurred. That's my That's what I would believe. >> I have no further questions, Sher. >> Thank you. May this witness be excused?

>> Yes, your honor. Subject to recall. >> All right. Agent, do you understand what. that means? >> Uh, yes, ma'am. >> Okay. Thank you. You can step down now. State call next witness. >> Calls Carlos Fong. Carlos Vong,

Mr. Fong, good afternoon. come all the way forward. >> Yeah. Because of the timing, I had Mr. Fong come directly from work. So, >> okay. Apologize for the dress. >> No problem. No problem. All right. Raise. your right hand to be sworn in. >> Sir, do you solemnly swear or affirm the. testimony you're about to give will be.

the truth, the whole truth, and nothing. but the truth. I hope you God. >> All right. Right this way. Okay. Watch. your step. There's a slight incline. there. All right, you may proceed. >> Please the court. Please introduce. yourself to the jury. >> I am Carlos Fong. Last name P H U N G. >> Thanks. It's like you've done this. before. What do you do for a living, sir? >> Work for ADT as an install tech.

>> All right, get right to the chase. Do. you know a person named Mario Fernandez? >> I do. >> How do you know him? >> Um, friends from high school. >> Do you see him here in court? >> I do. You say where and you're pointing. at the right side of the courtroom. >> sitting next to his lawyers. >> Yes. >> May the record reflect the witnesses. identified the defendant. >> Yes. >> Thank you your honor. So um you've known. him for a long time. I want to turn back. to the 2021 2022 time period. Uh did you. know his wife Shana Gardner?

>> I knew her because they were married. Um. I didn't say I knew her but I knew her. by acquaintance. Did you ever speak to. Shannana Gardner outside the defendant's. presence? >> No, we were always together. >> Were you aware of the fact that Shana. Gardner had an ex-husband and children. with that ex-husband? >> I did. >> Please explain to the jury what you. learned from Miss Gardner in Mr. Fernandez's presence about the. relationship Miss Gardner had with her. ex-husband.

>> The relationship was um definitely. rocky. Um, >> okay. >> You're already an adoptive admission. >> Okay, let me let me see you at sidebar.

May please the court. >> Yes. >> So, Mr. Fawn, going to those. conversations that you had with Shannana. Gardner and Mario Fernandez in front of. you, you were you were describing for. the jury the types of things that Miss. Gardner was complaining about with. regard to her child custody? Um. just basically the issue they were. having with the custody battles that. were going back and forth the family. court um know things like that. >> Well, describe it for the jury what you. remember.

>> Oh, as far as what she told what she had. told me. >> Sure. >> Oh, okay. Okay. She said that they were. going through a nasty divorce when I. first met her. Um that, you know, things. with her and Jared weren't well. Um that. it was just it wasn't pretty. you know, mainly because of the child custody. >> And did Mario Fernandez seem to go along. with the flow, so to speak. Did he. complain as much about Jared or was it. mostly Shana Gardner? >> Um, mainly Shana. We never actually. talked about Jared at all. Um, you know,

I've asked him about him, but we never. said he never told me like, oh, this or. that. No, it was never brought up. >> In those conversations with Miss Gardner. where Mr. Fernandez was present, he. would just kind of go along with what. Miss Gardner was saying. >> Yeah, he didn't really say anything. I. mean, it was mainly her talking. >> Understood. Um, and so knowing that, then I want to turn your attention a. little bit about what your knowledge of. Mr. Fernandez was before he met Miss. Gardner. >> I'm sorry, let me say that.

>> We couldn't hear because of the cup. Um, what was Mr. Fernandez's job before he. met Miss Gardner? >> He was um in the military and he had. >> after the military. >> Sorry. >> After the military. after the military. just Osen and Jobs. Um I think he was. working at Blackhive for a little bit. He was working at Bumos. So just I mean. nothing solid. Yeah. >> Do you know when he met Miss Gardner. where he was working? >> He was working at Blackhive. >> And what was he doing there? >> He was doing maintenance odd and things. for the owner. >> Okay. Is that a gym? >> Yes, CrossFit gym.

>> Okay. And that's where Miss Gardner was. working as a coach as well. >> Um I I believe so. I don't know that. >> you don't know. That's fine. I don't. want you to speculate. Um, and during. the course of the next couple of years, did you know if Mr. Fernandez kept that. job at the gym? >> On and off? I mean, he'll be doing. different things for the owner, but it. wasn't like a full-time thing. >> Did you know Mr. Fernandez would have. any sort of career? >> No. >> I want to now turn your attention to. subsequent.

to Henry Tenan's arrest, there were a. couple of phone calls that you placed to. the defendant, Mr. Fernandez. Do you. remember those? >> Yes, I do. >> And you've had the opportunity to look. at them, correct? I mean, listen to. them. >> Yes. In death? Yes. >> Did you know you were being recorded? >> Oh, absolutely not. >> And did uh as far as you know, did Mr. Fernandez know he was being recorded? >> As far as I know, no. >> Okay. I'm going to play the two calls. Um I think the jury will be able to. figure out just based on your accent, the slight accent, who's who. Um but I.

may have to stop you in the middle. The. first one I got to get the numbers. The first one you're going to publish. is going to be states exhibit. 1888 which is also referred to as call. uh number. 557. >> What's up my man? What the is up. ho? What's up? Where you been?

>> Where you been at? Cuz hey. So, just checking on you, bro. I mean, what the is going on with Canada? >> Uh, well, I mean, she's across the country. right now because they moved out there. cuz I I told you, right? We separated. >> I know. I remember you told me you guys. separated, but I don't know. Ruthie. called me asking me about what happened. with Sharon. I was like, "What the. are you talking about?" I said, "I know. they split, but I guess the news is at, you know, I don't know what you talking.

I didn't see on the news, but I guess. they're saying something about that she. might have caused the whole thing about. her and his cousin and I don't. think so. But. >> no, man. >> I don't I don't know what the story is. >> That's why we're straight. He's just. >> Yeah, bro. Like like right right now. Actually, I'm here in Jack's right now. because I'm I'm remodeling the room to. my um to my rental property. I'm. remodeling the bathroom. >> Right. You talking about your old your. dad's old house? You talking about.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that one. Yep. That. one. >> So, So, where you staying, dog? Where. you at? >> So, I' I've been in I've been in CM, man. And uh Okay. >> Because my my brother's down there, so, >> you know, I just I kind of jumped at the. opportunity because I just I had nothing. left here in Jack, so I was like, "Fuck. it. Might as well go.". >> So, what she ended up doing in the. house? She sold it or she just rented it. out? >> Yeah. Yeah. We're selling it now. We're. selling it. >> Oh, >> you still got your Tundra or you got rid.

of it? >> You still got my what? You still got the. Tund. >> Oh, no. I still have that bad boy, bro. Come on. >> I'm looking for one myself right now, dog. >> Oh, yeah. >> I'm trying to find I'm trying to find a. bro. >> Ah, okay. Okay. Hell yeah. >> But I want that gray color. That. off gray color. That's. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You You saw mine, right? Cuz mine's all. white. >> No, we never I never got a chance to see. it because, you know, so busy, bro.

>> Yeah, true. >> Yeah. I just checking on you because I. like checking on the next. I don't. think I don't know. I think the news. miscon. no joke. So, so here's here's the deal, brother. Like, bigger picture. We never. said anything from the get-go. So. because we didn't say anything, the. media the media pushes whatever they.

want, however they want it. >> And that's. when S move they just made like all a. sudden her ex-husband passes or you know. whatever happens she bless. country. >> You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. But there was like it was like. almost a year later, >> right? Ex. Yeah. Exactly. It's been a. while. It's coming up close to a year. later. Yeah, it's it's going to be a. year. It's going to be a year, >> right? >> You know, like. >> I know your ass,

you know, you don't dude. >> No. >> Whatever he he is, it's on him. >> You and I, it's bad karma. Like we said. from the getgo when I first. >> I can't tell you how many times I've had. a discussion with like I I've had I've. just had random discussions with. strangers on top of that with strangers. >> and then like I Dude, I've had people. that knew him when he was like younger, >> you know, when he was in like high. school or something like that cuz he.

grew up here in Jax or whatever. >> And they were just like they were like, I get it. And I was like, get the. out of here. Like now you're coming out. and saying some but it's just. like, >> you know, but the other part is a lot of. those people, you know, they belong to. the church, so like they don't want to. say. >> right? you know, >> they're not about to air out dirty. laundry. whatever. >> And like like now I'm just, you know, we'll wait to see what the happens.

Like. >> no, no one seems to have anything. concrete. Everything is like this and. that. Like I'm just like, "All right, cool.". >> Like you always get caught in the. craziest about the army and your. personal life, >> dog. >> Bro, my my sister my sister literally. said the same thing, dog. She. was like, >> she was like, she was like, "How come?". She's like, "How come you have such good. luck with the most random things?" And. she was like, she was like, "Yeah, like.

you go, you'll go out and you buy. something and then it's just like you'll. get a discount or you'll meet somebody. and they know something and then they. have this and they have that and you. have access to all these things and then. it's like but then other things happen.". And I was like I was like, I know. exactly what you mean. And I think th. this is this is the balance of the. universe when it comes to me, bro. Like. >> I just I just I just have to leave. well alone. So like extremely bad. doesn't happen. It's ridiculous,

dude. >> Stupid, bro. So, hey, on a real note, on. a side note, what are you? I know you. drive like a mad man, though. >> So, it does it does its best on the. highway. 100%. Like, I can get close to. like 470 miles to a full tank. And this. is on standard gas, you know? This is. regular 87 gas. And then around around. the city to a full tank about 420 miles.

>> Yeah. What is your miles per gallon? Do. you like. >> um. >> No man, I'm like between 19 to 22. >> Let the record show that there's a. significant talking about cars and. certainly it's been put into evidence, but I'm going to fast forward it about. seven minutes. >> Okay. >> From approximately five minutes to. approximately 12 minutes.

Now I'm starting to also like stretch. out his his lower back and his legs, I. just stretch him out and like he gets a. little um like there's a little bit of. pain, but then as soon as I as soon as I. like get him like stretched out, like. you could like he's he's livey. He's. lively. Like it all comes back. He's. like, "Oh, I'm ready to move.". Like let's. What are you talking about now? >> I don't know what we're talking about at.

that point. I know we were talk we we we. jump conversations. I'm so random. So it. went from trucks. I don't know where it. went to from the trucks to that. I think. he was talking about a dog, but I could. be wrong. Sure. Go ahead. >> I I think so, but I can't tell you 100%. what that was. That's the only thing I. was talking about stretching out his. back and stuff because Zero was older. He's husky sized dog.

>> Okay. >> So, yeah, man. He's doing all right. Yeah, I'm good, man. Probably no. with that whole situation. called me about. my boy. >> I'm pretty sure he would have called me. was going to go down. >> Yeah, man. I would have I would. have told my my people here like, hey, you know, but you you never know, bro.

Like I I I had mentioned this um cuz. like last year someone told bro I had. people apologizing to me because the way. the way our family got painted it was. like they're looking at Shana for. obvious reasons and then they're looking. at me for obvious reasons. But then on. top of that, they were they were like. harping on stuff and then like people I. had strangers. apologize to me for media racism. Like.

people were on social media being racist. towards me. And I don't I don't. I I don't watch the news. So I didn't. pay attention to it. >> It's like I was just like, well, you. know, like all I could say was like, well, racism is real. You know, like I I. live with it. I understand it. What what. I don't want to happen is some. for whatever reason happens and then. they look at me on just the inclination.

because I'm Hispanic. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? And then all of a. sudden I have to go through this. roundrobin circle of. >> because the military. >> you fit you fit you fit this you fit. this profile and stereotype. So. now now we got to do with you and. it's just like. >> that's the one thing, dude. I dude I. haven't talked to Ruth in years, bro. >> Yeah, I know. >> How's she doing? >> Okay, obviously the entire call has.

played in, but I don't think the state. needs to publish any more of that. We'll. now go to the second call. And I guess I. didn't make it clear. Uh Mr. Fun asked a. question. These calls took place January. 24th and January 25th of 2023. A process. >> sounds about right. Yeah. >> We'll now publish states exhibit 189.

Oh, hold on, brother. >> Hey, what's up, man? >> You in private? >> What's that? >> You in private? >> Uh, yeah. So I guess something broke out today. about the whole situation we talked. about. >> So they arrested some guy that used to. rent the north side house. >> I know. >> What the So I guess you thought it was. you. cuz I think the motive was after you not. not her her husband exhibit.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Or dude. No way. You think so? But he rented your house, so he must. have had some some he probably didn't. pay you kicked him out or something like. that. >> You know, there's a possibility of that. area, >> right? >> Yeah. >> There's no way though. Like I don't. know. I don't know, man. Like I haven't. pulled up anything. I haven't read. anything, >> you know?

>> So, but I'll give you. Yeah. Yeah. So the disc of it is basically who the. person name. >> right. and what's so. he's the one he's the one that did it. >> I'm like but the only way only.

you obviously he's been this is weird. I'm just I'm just speculating at this. point. So think of he knows who is. public record. You know what I'm saying? >> Right. Yeah. >> So he probably thought. >> that was you but not realizing who he. was. You know what I'm saying? Cuz you I. don't think he you I don't think just if. you wait for your concert they showed a. picture of him. Older black guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. And here's here's the thing. though like like he was working for me. for a bit like after it. >> Oh really? Really?

>> Yeah. Yeah. like he helped me like you. know that's that's a quarter. acre lot and and like he did he did a. lot of work dude like he. took down trees and and. mowed that and then he did roofing. like. I don't get it. >> between you and I you talking about you. don't know about cousin right. >> no like like no like there I'm trying I. mean I'm honestly trying to remember.

like you know I have to like think of. like any recollection of of. >> right. >> of you know any conversations I would. have had with the with the dude but it's. like. >> but but you wouldn't have you wouldn't. have any pictures of him or anything. like that you know what I'm saying you. know what I'm saying he wouldn't know. anything. >> yeah no. >> it's just crazy all of a sudden you know. they go to blaming Shana for it and all. a sudden next thing you know Dix it next. day literally broke that thing they. arrested somebody for his I'm like the.

is going on with this. >> I don't know, dude. >> But I just wanted. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. >> What the is going on, dude? I'm so. right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm I'm waiting to see. how it's going to turn out because I. already have like I already have like uh. media reaching out to me and stuff and. it's just like I you know there's. there's nothing for me to say right now. because there's nothing for me to say. >> No, I'm not going to. >> Yeah. No. no, bro.

It's just another day in the show, dude. >> Yeah. I'm just like just give you a. heads up. They're gonna. like, okay, this guy stayed at your. house. Either he was one or two things. Either either they're gonna say like he. was mad at you because he left the. house, he couldn't no more, and you. kicked him out. Or they're saying that. because you have him that you're not. going to do it. You know what I'm. saying? >> Yeah. Yeah. And and that was that was. actually like because I remember it was. like bro it was like October or.

maybe before that because you know after. co and everything else it was a. show it actually. Yeah it was after. co that everything was a show and. like I wasn't working with like you know. like all right well you know if if you. don't have rent right away like you know. just you can pay like week by week kind. of deal but you got to make it up. And. then I want to say it was either. September or October time frame. It's so. long ago now that he he flat out.

told me he's like, "I can't. afford it anymore.". >> He just couldn't. >> So he just left. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, the thing was I told him I. was like, "Well, how about you know. what? What can you afford?" And like the. dude was like scrapping up like 300. And. I and then I told him I was like, okay, if if this is where you're at, I can. give you till December and after. December like that that's it. And the. thing was like I had I had a new tenant. come in in January, >> right? >> So.

>> I said there's no disagreement between. y'all. >> No, you know. >> Yeah. And and that's and that that's. what I'm saying like like I helped the. dude out and then after that like I. remember for like all the that he. did for the place everything else I. remember reaching out to him was like. hey man you want to knock out. some work and make some money because. every like every estimate I was getting. you know like dude bro just just to do. just to do like somebody gave me an. estimate for a single tree and I was. like three grand and I was like yeah no.

go off dude no way. You. know what I mean? So, I was like I was. like, "Hey, you want to knock. off some branches and plow this. to the ground?" And that's what I. did. >> Well, you got rid of that property now, didn't you? >> Yeah. Yeah. I sold it, >> right? >> Yeah. I had to do what I had to. do. So, Oh, man. Yeah. I'm just I'm. waiting cuz Yeah. That way we can see. what the going to happen. >> Yeah. Just just keep keep your you know, keep your eyes peeled, though, cuz the.

are vultures. All. the. >> Oh, dude. 100%, man. This shit's gonna. like they follow Sh all the way in. Washington state. They talking. about they saw her get out of I'm. like, what the Like they they you. know, they sure they're going to follow. your ass, too. You know, keep the eyes. >> Oh, 100. Yeah. Oh, I know. I know. Like, >> I'm not the one though. You know, >> the way they're portraying it, I don't.

as of right now paint, >> but they're going to dig further. I. don't think. >> Oh, yeah. They're already. >> Yeah, they're Yeah, they're going to. paint it however they're going to want. to paint it. And then obviously it comes. down to. >> whatever the you know, is said. afterwards. So, >> exactly. Yeah, >> from what I I didn't dig too far. I just. saw like sending my email, what the. Let me just give my heads up real. quick. Yeah, just it's just the whole.

thing is just funny because. >> outside respective looking in. >> you know like you know you it's it's. it's a it's a it's a 50-50 swing looking. at it that way but but and but the other. part is it's actually not even it's more. like a it's like a three-way split. because then it was. >> it was there's this guy then there's me. then there's Shana. >> and then like you know. Unless somehow the widow is tied.

to this man somehow. Like I don't. know. >> I I I think old girl his family is big. enough. They they're. >> Oh, I bet. But but it's not because. they're interested in what happened to. the the the guy. They're just they're. they just want to do it out of spite, >> right? >> You know, >> here we go. >> Let me get back to Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm about to I'm about to head.

out and get back. >> But all right, bro. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Thanks, man. >> Thank you. That's all the questions I. have. >> All right. Thank you. Crossexamination. >> Good afternoon, sir. >> Hey, how's it going? >> Good. >> Oh, sorry.

You and Mr. Fernandez are friends, correct? >> Yes. >> Say as you didn't know you were being. recorded. >> Nope. >> He didn't know he was being recorded. >> I'm sure he would have said something. >> I know it's obvious, but you called him. He didn't call you. Right. >> Correct. >> And it was because you heard some stuff. about the media, right? >> Right. Would you agree that most of what. you were talking about was what the. media was reporting, you were telling.

him, and then he was responding what he. had heard through the media? >> Correct. >> Okay. And did you think that he made any. admissions to you? >> No. >> Did he seem different on that phone call. than he had seemed any time before? >> No. Normal. In the first call, you start. talking about uh that the media is. reporting something with Shana, the. wife. Right. >> Right. >> He tells you they had separated. That. was true. Correct. >> Correct. >> He tells you that she moved across the.

country. That's true. Correct. >> Correct. >> Did he seem concerned that you were. asking him about this? >> No, cuz he would have told me out like. what what you know, it's not your. problem, >> right? >> Just Mario's that type of guy. Yeah. And. he chatted with you to the extent that. he knew anything. Right. >> Correct. >> And then he started talking about like. Toyota Tundras. Right. >> We talk about trucks. That's all we talk. about is trucks outside of life. But. yeah, trucks a lot. >> On that whole call, I mean, the state. decided to fast forward and it's their.

evidence and their direct examination. They can do whatever they want. But. there's like seven or eight minutes. where you guys are just talking about. you wanting to buy a Toyota Tundra and. him owning a Toyota Tundra and gas. mileage and modifications and uh friends. of yours that uh were in the military. You guys were talking about all sorts of. stuff, right? >> Correct. >> Okay. And never one time did you feel. like he admitted anything to the. participation in the death of Jared. Bridean. Correct.

>> Correct. Let me before I get to the second call. Oh, and Mr. Fernandez owned dogs. >> Yes. He had one. one big dog. >> Yeah. >> And he was a little older, right? >> Yeah. Zero was like 10, maybe 11 at that. time. >> And at one point on the call, you guys. were just talking about how that dog was. doing, right? >> Yeah. Because I know he, you know, hung. out with the dog. I knew the dog well. And as they get older, a bigger doll.

with they get stiff and um arthritis and. things like that. >> Okay. And. Mr. Misrai started saying that while you. were friends, there were times or a time. where you were around Miss Gardner where. she was griping about the co-parenting. issues she was having with Jared. Brightan. Do I understand that. correctly? >> Correct. >> But do I also understand that Mr. Fernandez never talked to you about. that? I never cared to know his side of. the story. I never asked.

>> And he didn't seem to really care. Right. >> To my opinion, no. >> I mean, he wasn't. In fact, you. specifically said he didn't jump into. the conversation and start dogging Jared. Bright again, right? >> No. >> He just sat there and listened to his. current wife griping about her. ex-husband. Is that Do I understand that. correctly? >> Correct. You think that's unusual that an ex-wife. gripes about her ex-husband or excuse. me, a wife gripes about her ex-husband? >> Um, depending on how how bad a divorce.

was. Yes. >> And she told you it was bad, right? >> She she did. >> Okay. She didn't hide that from you, right? >> Nope. >> Okay. So, then there's a second call the next. day. You had learned through the media that. Henry Tenant had been arrested. >> Correct. >> And then you called Mr. Fernandez. And. you asked him, they're saying that guy. used to live in one of your properties, right? >> Correct. >> Did he deny that to you? >> No. >> Was he like, I don't know this guy? >> No. >> Is he like, did he try to distance.

himself from Mr. Tenon? >> No. >> In fact, he told you that Mr. Tenan did. work for him after the homicide. Correct. >> Correct. >> You had no idea that you were being. recorded, right? >> No clue at all. Mr. Fernandez, to your. estimation, had no idea he was being. recorded. Correct. >> Correct. >> And he just happened and this phone. conversation is about 11 months after. the homicide. Correct.

>> Yes. The time frame. Yeah. Sounds about. right. >> And he just happens to tell you, "Man, this guy did some landscaping for me, right?". >> Correct. >> Did you know. that the checks, there's three checks in. this case that Mr. Fernandez wrote to. Mr. Tenant. The memo line of one of the. checks is landscaping. Did you know. that? >> I saw it on social media, but he didn't. tell me exclusively. No. >> He did tell you that he did landscaping. work. >> Correct. Correct. >> So 11.

many, many months. The checks were. written in March after the homicide. He. told you he did work for him after the. homicide. Correct. >> Correct. >> And then he told you that he did roof. work in the call. Correct. >> Correct. Did you know that the checks that are in. evidence that the jury will see in this. case are for roofing? >> I didn't know. >> But that would be consistent with M Mr. Fernandez told you, wouldn't it? >> Correct. >> In a call that he didn't know he was. being recorded on, right? >> That's correct.

>> You said Mr. Fernandez didn't have much. of a career, but Mr. Fernandez did own. rental properties, right? >> Correct. >> And he worked on those rental. properties, right? >> A lot of time. And in fact, on the very. first call, he told you, "I'm doing tile. work right now." And you could hear the. scraping. He apologized for the scraping. because he was talking and working. Right. >> Correct. >> It's no secret that Shana Gardner's.

family was extremely wealthy. Correct. >> I honestly did not know that until all. of us came out. >> Okay. >> I I didn't have a clue. So, while Mr. Fernandez was married to. Shana Gardner, he lived a pretty. comfortable life. Is that fair to say? >> Oh, 100%. Yeah. >> Okay. And but he didn't brag about it or. talk about it or it didn't change the. same guy that you knew from high school. >> Not at all. >> And you're still friends with Mr. Fernandez to the extent that you can be,

right? >> Yes. In the second call, did he seem overly worried to you? >> No. Stressed maybe, but not not worried. >> Because the media was talking about his. involvement because Mr. Tenant used to. live at one of his rental properties, right? >> Correct. >> Did he seem evasive? >> No, definitely not.

>> Like he was hiding anything? >> No. >> He was candid about knowing Mr. Lieutenant. >> say that question. >> He was candid. He was he was open with. you and saying, "Yeah, I know this guy.". >> Correct. >> Did he tell you I had nothing to do with. it? >> Correct. >> And at the end when he's saying like. there's three people involved, it could. go three ways. He was talking about how. the media was portraying it. Right. >> That's correct. >> Yep. >> Not that he was involved. Him, Shannon.

Gardner, and Henry Tennant. That's not. what he was telling you, right? No, >> that's not what you're telling this. jury. >> Correct. >> I have a moment, honor. >> Yes. He also did tell you, you know, I'm. trying to remember because it had been a. long time. He didn't remember like every. detail. Right.

>> Right. >> So, if he didn't tell you every detail. about his relationship with Mr. And it. was just you mean you admitted he's like. I'm trying to think back to my. conversations with the guy, right? >> Correct. I. >> guess this is obvious, but during the. time that Shana Gardner was talking and. griping and Mr. Fernandez was there, you. never heard anybody threaten Jared. Brightan, correct? >> No. >> Never heard anybody trying to plan his.

murder. Correct. >> No. Nobody ever asked you to provide a. firearm in connection to this murder? >> Absolutely not. >> Mr. Fernandez never asked to change cars. with you or he never asked you in any. way to u participate or cover for him in. this homicide. >> No. >> And lastly, uh when you said, "Hey, where you at, man?" He told you, "I'm in. CM, Florida." Right. >> Correct. >> Where does his brother live? >> CMI. >> That add up? >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

And he was still working on another. rental property that he owned at the. time because he had sold PTOIC. >> Correct. >> Because Mr. Fernandez owned more than. one rental property. Right. >> Correct. >> And before he met Miss Gardner, he had. rental properties. Correct. >> He did. >> So it's not some like miraculous gift. that he got because he ran a chair. gardener. That was kind of the business. he was in. >> Correct. >> And then he supplemented his income by. working at gyms or doing handyman work. and things like that. >> Correct. Thank you very much, Mr. F.

>> Thank you, Mr. Ms. Rahi. You know about two of them, right? >> Yes. Correct. >> One is. >> correct. >> That's I've never been there. I don't. I'm assuming. >> Correct. Yeah, >> that's the one that Mr. From what he was. telling me? Yes, sir. >> I understand.

>> Yeah. >> Do you know what the income was from. those homes? >> I have no clue. >> Wasn't like. multi- dwellings with. >> No. No. They were single homes. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Let me ask that question again. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. He had come, you. know, side jobs, things like that.

>> So, um, Mr. Der asked you about the. landscaping. roofing, >> right? >> In the. call speaks for itself. >> Correct. >> No, definitely not. >> There was no. $3,000. >> Correct.

>> May the witness be excused. >> Witness may be excused. >> Thank you, Mr. Fong. >> Thank you. >> All right, members of the jury, we're. going to take a short recess. Okay. Leave your notepads on your chair. We'll. come back. >> I'm still live. It seems. >> say 3:45. Okay.

Please let the record reflect that the. jury's left the courtroom. The court's. in recess until 3:45. Thank you.

Are both sides ready? Okay.

I didn't want anybody to stand. I sometimes I like to sneak in, sneak. out. volunteer submission. >> We need to get we need to get the. gallery.

>> I like to keep y'all guessing.

Um, need to get Mr. Holman. He's holding. in the hallway. >> Thank you.

All. right, welcome back members of the jury. Everyone may be seated. Miss Stiffler, call your next witness.

Yes, your honor. State calls agent Bobby. Ble. Agent Bobby Bllye. >> Good afternoon, agent. >> Please raise your right hand to be sworn.

in. Agent, do you solemnly swear or. affirm the testimony you're about to. give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I hope you. God. >> I do. >> Okay. Thank you. This way. You. >> may proceed. >> Thank you, honor. >> Good afternoon, sir. Could you please. introduce yourself to our jurors? >> Good afternoon. My name is Bobby Ble. I'm a special agent with the FBI here in. Jacksonville, Ford. Agent Blle, how long have you worked for.

the FBI? Uh, >> for about 18 years since June 2018, excuse me, 2008. >> And what is your current position with. the FBI? >> Uh, I'm a special agent with the FBI. I'm a part of the FBI's cellular. analysis survey team. I'm a full-time. member of that team and I'm embedded or. detailed here to a violent crimes task. force in Jacksonville, Florida. And you. mentioned the what we're going to refer. to as CAST, cellular analysis survey. team. >> Yes.

>> Can you describe for the jury how long. you've been a member of the CAST team? >> I uh was certified as part of the. cellular analysis survey team CAST in. 2022. Uh I started my training process. in June 2019. Um and during that time. from 2019 to 2022 worked with already. certified field asset and went through. all of our training processes. um your previous positions with the FBI. >> Uh so my first uh field office. assignment was in New Orleans, Louisiana. I worked a variety of.

criminal investigative matters from uh. financial crimes uh to public corruption. investigations and civil rights. investigations there. And in 2018, I. transferred to Jacksonville field office. and continued to work on criminal. investigations. and in uh 2022 uh. started working uh primarily uh violent. crime investigations. >> Can you explain to the jury what CAST. is? >> Uh CAST is a group of about 100 uh.

special agents and task force officers. across the FBI's field office that. specialize in the analysis of phone. based location information and. historical cell site location. information. the information that comes. from the cellular providers that make. your cell phones work. Uh we uh train. other investigators, state and local law. enforcement, other federal agencies how. to do this kind of work to use this. technology to further investigations to. find phones and the people they belong. to. Uh we also help real time on cases.

uh to to find people uh whether it be. suspects of crime, missing persons uh. such as a a kidnapped child. Uh and we. also work on historical investigations. looking back uh to see where a phone was. or device was in relation to a set of. circumstances and we also provide. testimony in court regarding our. findings. You mentioned someone earlier testified. about being castrained. Do you train other law enforcement.

agencies outside of the FBI in how to do. this type of analysis? >> Yes. Uh every year I teach multiple uh. basic classes, a two-day class to state, local, and other federal uh law. enforcement officers and crime analysts. on how to do this type of work, what. kind of records uh you can get from the. cellular providers and social media. companies to obtain location information. to help in an investigation. Uh we also. also teach an advanced class to state, local, and federal law enforcement as. well. And we're required to do so to.

maintain our professional standards. What's your educational background? >> I have a bachelor's degree in business. administration from the University of. North Florida with a major in. accounting. I worked in public. accounting for three and a half years uh. after graduating from UNF and I did some. postback work to be able to sit for the. CPA exam and I became a certified public. accountant during that time as well. >> How did you get into this transition. from that type of work with the FBI into. CAST? Uh so I uh knew an FBI agent um.

that I met when I was uh in high school. actually and kept up with him through. college. I was recruited uh went through. the application process and joined in. 2008 and went through new agents. training. >> In order to be a member of the cast. team, can you briefly describe for the. jury what specialized training you have. to receive related to mobile device. location analysis, both historical and. real time? Um so we go through over 300 hours of. classrooms and classroom and.

practicalsbased training. Uh basically. going from a basic class to an advanced. class, a critical incident readiness. exercise that simulates a command post. environment. Um let's say there's a a. child abduction or a mass shooting and. we're trying to identify a suspect. device and track that device. So we. simulate that in an exercise. We also go. through a four-week certification course. that includes a class from a PhD. professor from the Florida Institute of. Technology in radio frequency theory as.

it relates to cellular networks. And we. go through the technology from the. infancy of cell phones 1G all the way to. 5G, what's currently deployed. And. what's special about it is we also. receive training directly from the. cellular providers AT&T, T-Mobile, uh. Verizon and US Cellular from both their. network engineers and their court order. legal legal compliance personnel to tell. us about the technology they have. deployed, how their networks work. Uh we. can ask them questions and they tell us.

about what kind of records they keep and. how to obtain them. Approximately how many times in your. career do you believe that you have. analyzed call detail records with. location information? Historical I'll. start with that historical records. >> Um more than several hundred times. >> And have you ever in your career uh. tracked successfully a suspect or. missing person using these records in. real time? >> Yes, numerous times. >> Can you give us an example? Um, I know. recently you tracked a suspect in a.

local shooting at the Players. Championship course. >> Uh, yes. Uh, there was a double homicide. uh near the Players Championship this. year. Um, we're able to um track the. suspect's device uh to an area. Uh, within a very short period of time of. providing that information to. investigators, they were actually able. to locate the abandoned phone um and and. see uh where that was located. and then. we're moved on to uh exploiting other. means to try to locate that suspect. Um.

I've also located missing endangered. children, children who've been. kidnapped, the suspects involved in. those kidnappings, missing persons. who've been deceased uh to find their. remains. Uh and also been able to verify. where uh suspects of crime have been, looking backwards uh by seeing where. their device was and then corroborating. that by pulling video at that location. or seeing them on surveillance. And you mentioned that part of your job. duties are also to testify in court. How.

many times have you testified in court. related to your work as an expert. witness? >> About 55 jury trials in state and. federal court. >> At this time, the state is intending to. elicit opinion evidence from agent ble. as an expert in his field. And I would. allow the defense any border. >> Any questions? >> Oh, no questions. and we agree that he's. an expert in his field. >> Okay, you may proceed. Okay, Agent Ble, we're going to give the jury a little.

bit of an education. Um, can you explain. how cell towers work? >> Yes. So, on the left, you can see four. common configurations of cell phone. towers, as they're commonly called in. our area. There's a traditional metal. pole with three-sided array of antennas. on top that you can see at the top left. They can be disguised as a fake tree or. other items. Uh there's a flag pole on. the top right or they can be mounted on. different sides of a rooftop to create. the three sides of a traditional cell.

phone tower. On the right side, you'll. see a diagram. It shows the directions. on a compass, north, south, east, and. west, and also shows the degrees. Uh at. the center, you'll see an overhead image. of a cell phone tower. Uh from above, there's a dot at the middle of that. So. on the maps you'll see today, you'll see. a dot like that that represents the. exact location on Earth of the base of. that cell phone tower. And then you'll. also see uh these wedges here that. represent the outline of a sector as.

designed by the provider to give. coverage in a specific geographic area. Uh those sectors uh or sides of the. tower are aimed in a particular. direction called an azmouth. Uh they use. the degrees on a compass to aim the. center of those sectors. And so I use. that information about where the tower. is located and how they're aimed, how. many degrees on a compass that the. center line of that sector is aimed to. um create a visual representation of the. cellular network activity for that.

device and an approximate location. >> And I should mention that this is states. exhibit 182. This is the introductory. slides in your report which we'll get to. in a moment. >> Yes. >> So the towers are divided into sectors. Um, how does the division into sectors. produce location data in call detail. records or call records? >> So, uh, most of the towers in the United. States are divided into three sectors. Uh, so if we only had the tower, we. could just draw a dot on a map and say.

the phone used that tower. But with, uh, sector information, we know which side. or sector of the tower the phone used at. a given time for a specific. communication. So, we can draw that. outline of that sector and show what. side of the tower the phone used, which. shows a more uh precise location to just. knowing that the phone used the tower by. itself. Um, and also just wanted to. point out that on the sectors you'll see. drawn, there's this arch and a shaded. area on the inside. that's simply meant. to emphasize the direction of coverage.

that's being provided by that sector and. doesn't indicate the uh exact location. or coverage area uh of the tower or the. location of the exact location of the. phone. >> So on this next slide um is this how you. display what you were just speaking. about that coverage location direction? >> Yes, this is one of those sectors. plotted on a map. You see the green dot. that represents the location of the cell. phone tower and then the red wedge. indicates which sector in this case the.

sector pointed at 0 degrees true north. uh that the phone used for that. particular event. You'll also see other. towers on the map. Those are there as a. point of reference. We call them. reference towers. It's other towers in. the cellular network that weren't used. at that specific time, but they help aid. in the estimation of the coverage area. of the towers and sectors that were. used. Does a cell phone or device always. select the closest tower? >> Uh not always, but it usually does. Uh.

cell phones are constantly scanning. their environment uh measuring signal. strength and quality and the phone. itself or incoming or outgoing phone. call actually picks the tower with the. best signal. Um, that's usually ends up. being the geographically closest tower, but there can be exceptions such as. man-made or uh geographic barriers uh in. between your phone and the your the line. of sight to the closest tower.

>> What we're just talking about is what we. would consider cellular location data. So, can you explain to the jury what the. difference between cellular location. data is and something called timing. advanced data? So uh cell site data or uh call detail. records with cell site let's say a phone. call you have information about the. tower and what side or sector was used. on that tower for that phone call. Timing advance is a different data set. uh that provides a calculated distance.

that the phone was from the base of the. tower. Uh so with that information we. can draw that calculated distance across. that 120 degree sector and we uh for the. 4G context technology we map those as 78. m wide uh and so you draw that 78 m wide. band or arc across the sector and the. majority of the time you'll find that. phone uh inside that shaded area. The. way that works is that the tower sends a.

signal from the tower to the phone and. the phone relays it back to the tower. The network runs a stopwatch on that. relay. Uh, and then you use a a simple. equation to calculate the distance that. the phone was from the tower based on. how long it took the signal to get to. and from the phone. The reason that's. there is uh you can think of a uh. crowded movie theater. Let's say there's. an emergency in the theater like a fire, but there's only one exit. Um, if.

everyone goes out that one exit at the. tries to go out at the same time, uh, there'll be a tragedy. Uh, if there's. someone to designate who goes out, which. row goes out at what time sequentially, then everyone can get out safely. Uh, it. tells uh, the phones when they have to. send signals so that they arrive within. the right time window. Uh it's critical. for cell phones to work. The cellular. providers uh have uh in our training.

have told us that for your cell phone to. operate and function, timing advance has. to work. Uh and it provides much more. precise location information than just. tower and sector. >> So I want to kind of break this down for. the jury. If we're talking about. cellular. location information, does that require. somebody to be actively using meaning. either sending or receiving text. messages or making or receiving phone. calls to generate data of which tower.

and sector is being used? >> No. So uh although timing advance can be. created based on phone calls, data. sessions or text messages, it's also. independent network signaling uh of. independent of any user initiated. activity. >> So if you were looking for active cell. cellular usage, you would ha someone. would have to be using their phone to. create that activity. But if we're. talking about timing advance, my phone. can be sitting here without me doing. anything on it, without receiving any.

text or calls, and it still can be. creating those timing advance. measurements to the cell tower. >> Yes. >> Okay. When you are mapping cell phone data, what kind of records do you need in. order to do that? Uh so in the productions from these uh. cellular providers uh we need the call. detail records with cells site uh the. data sessions with cells site if it's. available the timing advance files uh. and we also need a cell tower list a.

list of uh from the provider that gives. the locations of all the towers um and. other information about the tower and. the sectors like what direction that. each side of that tower faces. And in this case, in many of your cases, do you receive those records from these. cell pro cell phone providers via a. search warrant? >> Yes. >> The the government or law enforcement, the state, we can't just subpoena them. They have to be through a search warrant. issued and approved by a judge.

>> Correct. The legal standard for quite. some time now is that it requires a a. probable cause search warrant from a. judge uh to obtain this historical cell. site location information um because it. allows one to track the movements of. one's device. So in this case, did you analyze both. cell tower location information, meaning. these maps here on page five that show. what azmouth and what sector of a tower. is being used as well as timing advance.

showing that same information but with a. distance from the tower? Did you have. both types of data available to you in. this case? >> Uh yes uh for uh one of the devices. Do phone companies keep this timing. advanced measurement data as long as. they keep other cellular data? >> No, they don't. >> Do you know what the retention periods. are for cell providers in general? >> I do. Yes. >> And what are those? >> Uh, so for timing.

>> Okay. Or do you want to ask a. >> I mean I can I can ask it differently. Okay. Have the retention periods for. these carriers changed since 2022? >> Yes. >> Do you know what they were in 2022? >> Yes. >> And what are they? What were they in. 2022? Let's start with T-Mobile. What. was their retention rate in 2022? >> For time in advance, it was 90 days. So,

if a an officer does not get a search. warrant for a specific phone number. because they haven't identified it or. it's not part of the investigation, 90. days after an event, timing advance. would not have been available for a TO. T-Mobile number in 2022. >> No. >> What about AT&T in 2022? >> Uh, in 2022, AT&T did not produce uh. timing advance information uh to law. enforcement pursuant to search warrants. They've since uh have begun doing so.

>> Did you receive another type of data to. analyze in this case, Google location. history? >> Yes, I did. >> And can you explain to the jury where. Google location history comes from? >> So, Google location uh history uh comes. from uh the phone's operating system, the location services uh function on. your phone. Uh the phone uh is a very. smart device that has a uh function.

feature called location services. The. applications running on the phone are. constantly asking location services. assuming it's turned on uh for location. information. The weather channel app. needs to know what part of town. generally you're in. So it asks for a. more broad or less more approximate. location. Uh but when let's say you get. in Google Maps and want to navigate to a. specific location, uh it wants the best. location information which is going to. be usually your phone's GPS receiver or.

Wi-Fi based location information. Uh so. when the applications on your phone or. using Google products themselves are uh. querying the phone's operating system. for locations, uh those locations are. provided uh to the applications. uh if. you're opted in to uh timeline or. location tracking with Google uh then. that information at this time was. transmitted and stored in Google servers. uh and it's also stored on your in your. phone's operating system.

We have three types of data available in. this case. You have your cell tower. information like we see here on slide. five. timing advanced data that you. mentioned you were able to obtain for. one of the numbers you analyzed and. Google location history. Can you explain. to the jury uh I'll start with this one. How precise is this data and can you. provide an exact location for a device. beginning with cell site location. information? >> Uh so tower and sector cell site.

information uh is an approximate. location. Well, how approximate? It. depends on the tower density of the. geographic area you're located. Um, if. you're in downtown Los Angeles, California, uh, where there's towers. every two or three city blocks or more, uh, there's it's very precise. It. narrows it down to a much smaller area. Um, if you're in a rural area where. towers are 8 to 10 miles apart, it's a. much more broad area if you just have. tower and sector. So during a let's say. a phone call and you have the tower and. sector or side of the tower that was.

used the phone has to be somewhere. inside the coverage area for that tower. and sector and that's uh in many ways. defined by the tower density. >> So if you have cell site location. information you would be able to say. that a cell phone is somewhere in this. coverage range for this lo uh direction. for this tower. >> Yes. for timing advanced. How much more. precise or how much more exact can you. give a location for a specific device?

>> Yeah, so we know that uh generally the. phone's going to be somewhere inside the. shaded area of the 78 meter uh wide band. that we can draw across that sector uh. based on the calculated the distance. Um. and we also know that the phone uh. because of various um variables in the. real world, we know that the phone could. be one to two bands uh inside of that. >> And then for Google location history, can you provide a more precise or more.

exact location for a device with this. type of data? >> Yes. So uh this in Google oftent times. is able to assign uh or or show a. confidence radius for the location based. on many in which is in many cases. related to the source of that location. information. Uh GPS uh global. positioning system data uh being the the. best uh usually 3 to 10 meters. Um so. that's going to be a much more precise.

location uh on Earth about where that. phone is. So, uh, let's say you have a. 10 m, um, confidence radius location. Uh, you have a latitude and longitude. You can draw that specific point on a. map and then you would go 10 m out on. one side from that location and then. draw a circle all the way around that. location. That's the confidence radius. Um, and you can see an example of that. uh, here on the right. >> Thank you, Agent. In this particular case, did you receive. phone records including cellular.

location history, timing advance, and. Google data specific to three phone. numbers and one email address? >> Yes. >> May I approach the witness? >> Yes. Actually, I'm going to use the evidence. card for this.

Agent, I'm showing you exhibit 206. This. is a chart of phone numbers and email. addresses. It's been entered into. evidence. And. >> is it published? >> Yes, been entered into evidence. So, we're beginning with was one of the. numbers um one of the phone numbers and.

associated individuals records provided. to you. The phone number here. 904-5662633. belonging to a Mario Fernandez. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Did you also receive two phone numbers. belonging to two different devices with. two different IMEIs for an individual uh. by the name of Henry Tenan? And the. numbers here 904817612. 90442513.

>> Yes ma'am. >> And were you also provided Google. location information for an email. address henryten53gmail.com? >> Yes. And lastly, were you provided. cellular location information for an. individual by the name of John. Biggerstaff at 904-5176322? >> Yes. >> Mr. Biggerstaff had an AT&T phone. number. So, you did not have the ability. to obtain timing advance data for him. Is that correct?

>> No, ma'am. >> And for Mr. Fernandez, you were you. received a 30-day time period or I think. a few different time periods of timing. advanced data as well as cell site. location information. >> Yes. >> For Mr. Tenan's phone numbers, um, you. received cell site location information? >> Yes, that's correct. >> And Mr. Fernandez and Mr. Tenan both had. T-Mobile phone numbers. >> Yes. And then um Google data, how long in.

2022 was that data retained? The. location data? >> Uh well, it depends on the user. Um so. the user um I've I've seen in. investigations even in my own location. history. Uh exploring this myself and my. own data. Um it can be there for years. >> Um there is more control because it's. not held by a third party. It's actually. contained in your phone or your Google. cloud. You can delete data if you want. You can retain it. You can alter the.

retention lengths yourself for that type. of data. >> Yes, ma'am. And I'm going to show you some items. that were provided to you to do your. analysis. Beginning with states exhibits. stickers are covered up. 180.

>> These are It's a disc with a letter from. AT&T. The toll records for John Bigger. Staff. >> Yes, ma'am. >> States exhibit 179 toll records and a. certification from T-Mobile for Henry. Tenon.

Yes, ma'am. >> And then a disc of toll records and a. T-Mobile certification for the phone. records and timing advance records from. Mario Fernandez. >> Yes, ma'am. And then you also received. Google data location data from a Google. return from Mr. Henry Tenan states. exhibit 181.

>> Yes. >> And lastly, the detectives provided you. as well to include in your mapping some. license plate reader reports from the. St. John's County Sheriff's Office for a. specific date, January 29th, 2022. Yes, that's correct. >> Using the records in front of you, did. you plot maps for the cell phone numbers.

for the individuals Mario Fernandez, Henry Tenan, and John Biggerstaff, as. well as the Google data for Mr. Tenon? >> Yes. Are you also provided by the detectives. that request you to do work geographic. points of interest, specific addresses. or longitudinal and lat latitudinal. positioning? >> Yes. And in this case, where you. provided some addresses to include 1511.

Marsh Inlet Court, a longitude and latitudinal coordinates. associated with an area called Pablo. Hamlet, 5239 PTOAC Avenue, Elite Gymnastics, St. John's County, 182 Fresnell Lane, and 2180 Daringer. Circle. >> Yes.

When you receive those phone records. that you have up there, states 178, 179, 180. If the jury were to open them, they. would see the time and dates of the. cellular activity and timing advance is. in something called UTC. Can you explain. to the jury what UTC means? >> UTC stands for universal coordinated. time uh for short. Uh and you can think. of it as being similar to Greenwich mean. time. Uh so to get from UTC time uh to. local time here uh this time of year we.

subtract 4 hours. Um during standard. time after we fall back uh you subtract. five hours. >> And did you make those adjustments when. mapping this data? >> Yes. When you're mapping data for the time. period at the top, do you include all or. most of the cellular data for that time. frame in your mapping? >> Uh yes, unless I indicate uh otherwise.

>> And if there is no data for specific. time period for a phone, did you also. indicate that on these maps? >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right. We're going to go through. your report. It states exhibit 182. Did. you prepare these maps um in conjunction. with a request from the Jacksonville. Beach Police Department regarding the. murder of Jared Brightan? >> Yes. >> Do you actually participate in the. investigation of the cases that you're. working or you just look at data? Uh so. so usually I'm brought in to look at the. historical cell site or other phone.

based location information um to provide. context and show where devices were in. reference to specific places at specific. times pertinent to the investigation. Uh. sometimes I might be asked for um uh. advice about what type of location. information can be be uh obtained from. certain providers, but that's usually. what it's limited to in these types of. cases. You don't participate in. interviews or help collect evidence or. make any kind of determinations as to. how an investigation will proceed other.

than maybe requesting additional data. that you would need to map locations. >> All right, let's go through your slides. Beginning with slide eight, you were. asked to map. cellular location data for the phone. number 2633, Mr. Fernandez. And I should. say at the beginning of your report, the. jurors will have a little easier time. You do them by color coding. So on this. map, we're going to have Mario Fernandez. is going to be indicated in pink. Mr.

Tenan's devices in green and in black, Mr. Bigger Staff's device in blue, and. then Mr. Tenins are going to be those. red little bubble dots indicating Google. data. >> Yes. >> Okay, perfect. So, beginning with slide eight, you were. asked to map cellular location. information for Mr. Fernandez on January. 5th of 2022. Can first of all, were you provided with.

with timing advance data for this time. period? >> Uh, for January 5th, um, I I don't. recall the specific date it cut off. Uh, but later in January, I know there was. timing advance and in February we had. timing advance. And if the request for. the data was made more than 90 days, like for example, if if the police. didn't realize the date was significant. until 90 days after it had passed, there. would not be timing advance available. for you to map. >> Correct. So, uh, as soon as you know.

investigators learn of a device, um, they can only go back 90 days before. that to get timing advance. So, if. there's a date pertinent to the case. that falls below that before that 90th. day, um that information is going to be. uh have been uh purged from T-Mobile's. systems. Uh so, it it just won't be. available. >> So, in this map, we're seeing cellular. data, which means that we are only going. to have data points when a phone is. communicating with a tower being used in.

some manner. >> Correct? >> So, here we see Mr. Fernandez's device. has two cellular activities for this. time frame. Can you describe for the. jury what you've mapped? >> Yes, this is a visual representation of. the cellular network usage of target. cell phone 2633 in pink. Uh there's a. incoming phone call that went to. voicemail at 10:56 a.m. uh utilizing uh. the tower and sector just north of the. Jacksonville Beach sign on the map. facing to the west. And at 11:51 a.m.,

the target cell phone utilized the tower. and sector just north of the Baptist. Medical Center beaches sign on the map. Uh, also facing to the north and west. uh, for an outgoing phone call. >> And these other green dots that I'm. circling here, those indicate the. location of other T-Mobile. cell towers back in 2022. >> Yes. >> And when you map cell location towers, towers can change. They can build new. towers, move them. Do you always use the. tower list from the year that you're. mapping?

>> Yes, we use the tower list closest in. time uh to the time of the incident uh. because the network changes over time. >> Moving on to slide nine, we have a map. here for a phone number 7612 associated. with Henry Tenan and Google location. data for Henryten 53gmail.com. for January 5th, 2022. Before we get. started, I want to ask about this box up. here that is in reference to Mr. Fernandez is phone number 2633. What. does that mean?

>> Yes, there's no mapappable activity for. the target cell phone during that time. frame uh with tower sector information. >> So, we can say this device the data for. this day that was available for you to. map. We can say the device is in the. Jacksonville Beach area between 10:56. a.m. and 11:51. For this time frame, we. have no data to say where that phone's. located. >> Uh yes. So, cell site uh is our. snapshots in time. So they show uh an. approximate location. I can show an. approximate location uh based on those.

usages on the previous slide for those. two specific points in time. >> So for Mr. Tenan's. cellular device and his G uh Gmail. account which was linked to one of his. cellular phones, can you explain uh what. your mapping indicates to you in your. opinion based on your training and. experience? So this shows the movement. of the target uh device uh the device. using the Gmail account uh and the. target uh cell phone 7612 in green uh.

away from the uh tenant residence uh the. area of the tenant residence 5239 PTOAC. Avenue uh south and east and then east. towards the Jacksonville uh beach area. by 5:57 and 11 uh p.m. indicated here on. the right side of the map. And this flag. you have here corresponds with the. legend. That was an address provided to. you by detectives in the case. >> Correct. >> Same with the what we're going to call. Fernandez residence. The location of.

interest as Pablo Hamlet and the. location of the crime scene on Sanctuary. Boulevard South. >> Yes. >> And we're getting a more closeup view of. Mr. Tenan's Google location data on. January 5th. Again, we see this box here. and can you explain again what that. means as it relates to this slide? >> Yeah. So, there's no uh mapable activity. for 2633, the pink phone uh during the.

time frame. Um and there's no time in. advance available uh during uh this date. due to the retention period and when the. records were obtained. >> So, no cellular data means that the. there's no usergenerated cellular. activity at this time frame. uh correct or incoming activity that. would generate cells site. >> So 2633 is not making or receiving any. calls sending or receiving any text. messages at this time frame. >> Uh so with T-Mobile uh they don't retain. cells site for text messaging. I'd have.

to go we'd have to look at those records. but uh for the phone there's no phone. calls incoming or outgoing uh generating. cells site during this time. >> In regards to Mr. tenins geoloccation. data. Can you explain to the jury your. opinion based on your training. experience what is indicated by this. slide? >> Uh so this shows the movement of the. target device accessing henryten. and53gmail.com. uh moving uh south between 558 and uh. 6:06 p.m. along south 15th Street uh and.

then turning on Fairway Lane. And these. you boxes indicate the time for this. particular point. So these correspond. >> correct. >> slide number 11. This is going the your arrows indicate. reverse. So we're going further along in. time. So we see activity going this way. And the next slide.

the device appears to be moving back. where it came from. >> Yes. The blue arrow on the slide I. provided gives shows the direction of. movement. Um, and you can see the call. out box for each event uh next to it. with the time and the uh confidence. radius assigned by Google to that. location. >> So explain to me this R3M here that is a. confidence radius. What does that mean. as it correlates to these individual. points?

>> Yes. to the uh point here that you just. circled. Um that it refers to that point. just uh to the north of the Fernandez. residence sign on the map uh at 607 and. 34 seconds. Um it's uh means that Google. was able to sign a very precise uh. location, a confidence radius to that. location of of 3 meters. So that device. would generally be found somewhere. within three meters of that latitude. longitude location.

And then here we have from 6:08 to 6:10. p.m. more location data. Can you explain. um what we're observing in this slide? >> So these are uh locations that were in. the location records for Henry. 1053@gmail.com. Um they show uh the device between 6:08. p.m. uh and 61058. seconds. Um on these I I'm not able to. show a confidence radius because the.

source of even though one was assigned. by Google uh the source of the location. uh pull was uh listed as unknown. So uh. that could mean a variety of things. about why uh it was didn't make its way. into Google's records, what the source. of that location is. Um but these. locations are interspersed um with uh. GPS generated locations, Wi-Fi generated. locations and uh as I reviewed them in. totality uh they track right along.

roadways uh in sequence over time and uh. uh appear to provide accurate locations. for that device. >> Data points individually it's hard to. draw conclusions of them. Do you look at. the totality of the data and the context. in which you're viewing it to draw your. conclusions? Yes. >> All right. And then 610 to 657 on. January 5th. Again, we have no activity, cellular activity for 2633. Can you explain what we're seeing in. this slide as it relates to Mr. Tenan's.

cellular device and Gmail account? So the the target device uh for Henry. and 53@gmail.com and target cell phone. 7612. uh both move uh back west between 610 um. 622 and um. 651 to 653 um arriving back um in this. area um of San just south of the San. Marco sign on the map. Uh you can see a.

Google location here um at 651 and 35. seconds and then a data session for the. target cell phone in green at 653. utilizing uh a tower and sector just to. the south and west of that u more. precise Google location. Um and uh uh. you can see that tower and sector faces. that Google location along Interstate uh. 95 there. So this is one of those examples of.

looking at things in totality and. context. You have pre more precise. Google location. uh locations data points but they are. corresponding with these kind of less. precise tower readings. But in an area. like this because they're both in the. same area you can conclude that the. device is is moving in this general. track. >> Yes. The uh data sets corroborate one. another. >> right? They correspond to one another. >> Yes.

>> And then January 5th, um, again, we have. no activity. We have on 16 an outgoing. call, but no cellular calls to map for. this time frame. And we see that the. data points. are moving back to the location of 5239. PTOAC Avenue. Is that fair? >> Yes. >> Okay. January 25th. from 2:39 p.m. to 3:10 p.m. We are.

looking at AT&T records which are only. available as that cell tower location. information for Mr. Bigger staff as well. as the cell location and timing advance. for Mr. Fernandez. So here we're seeing. can you explain to the jury how timing. advance is going to be indicated in. these boxes? That's a little bit. different than the cellular location. information. Yes. So, uh on in these. callout boxes at the top is the CD. number. That's a unique identifier for.

that tower and the side or sector of. that tower that was used for each event. And then below that is the date, the. time. This number is the azimuth or. degrees on a compass that that sector. faces that was used for that specific. event. And then next to it is TA that. stands for timing advance. And then the. distance, the calculated distance that. was obtained from the records. uh as. calculated by T-Mobile uh in the records. and that is visually displayed there. with the sector on the map.

>> And what can you tell me about the. collocation if any between Mr. Bigger. Staff's number here in blue and Mr. Fernandez's number here in pink or. devices? >> Yes. So, uh Mr. Fernandez's phone. arrived in this area at approximately. 3:0456. p.m. Um, you can see indicated here by. the timing advance band. Um, and. meanwhile, Mr. Bigger Staff's phone. between 2:42 and 3:08 p.m. utilized the.

tower and two sectors on that tower in. the vicinity of uh 28 2180 Daringer. Circle um during that time. So uh then. the timing advance at 309 and 310 uh. shows a calculated distance for that. target cell phone uh during that time. that overlaps. geographically with the uh bigger staff. residents. So it shows potential. collocation of those two devices in that.

area. >> And here on your legend where you have. these addresses labeled Fernandez. residence and bigger staff residents, that is information provided to you by. the detectives in this case. >> Yes. And here we go. On January 25th, we've got a 3:10 p.m. to 4:24. p.m. and then we have a 4:26 to 5:56. p.m. I'm going to go through both of. these and what conclinions or. conclusions are you drawing as to the. potential for colllocation from these. slides.

>> Yeah. So remember, we don't have timing. in advance for the AT&T phone. We just. have uh tower and sector. Uh the blue or. AT&T phone for Mr. Bigger Staff was. utilizing the two tower and sectors uh. located here in this area near McCormack. and Monument Road just to the east of. the Bigger Staff residents during at. 3:26 and 424. Um then during this time. frame there's multiple timing advance. events with three different calculated. distance um putting the phone in that uh.

the area here defined by the three. timing advance bands during that time. Um, so it shows potential collocation of. the two devices during that time. >> I guess I should have specified this. earlier, but this little blue dot. indicates an AT&T tower and this little. green dot indicates a T-Mobile tower. So. the T-Mobile phone would use this one. and an AT&T phone would use this one. >> Correct. >> And then we see here on slide 17, Mr. Fernandez's phone with a timing advance.

appears to be leaving the what's been. labeled as a bear staff residence at. 2180 Daringer Circle and his path of. travel is consistent with in your. opinion um a return via roadway back to. the Jacksonville Beach area. >> Yes, ma'am. And then uh January 25th 6:27 p.m. to 9. 23 p.m. um what opinions or conclusions. can you draw from this? >> Yeah, so the target device 6 through3.

6322 in blue remained in the area um uh. throughout uh the through the next. morning based on the available location. information. You can see uh here and in. the call out box to the right um the. target cell phone primarily used uh this. tower south of the near monument in. McCormack Road during that time frame. >> Right. We're going to talk about January. 29th,

2022. I'm hoping we'll get through this this. particular date uh before we break for. the day. So that's what I'm going to try. to accomplish. On page 19, you were asked to map. location data, timing advance data for. Mr. Fernandez's phone, cellular location. data for 7612 Mr. Tenant's phone and. Google data points for Henryten. 53@gmail.com. Looking at this slide and we've the jury.

has seen it before. Can you offer any. opinions based on this data here as to. whether those two devices could be. correlated being in the same area for an. overlapping period of time? Okay, so just to break it down, um the. target cell phone 26 uh33. uh in pink between 2:00, which is this. timing advance band here in this tower. and sector um is moving uh into this.

area and at that point and uh closer to. the uh area of the tenon residence. there's at 202 a timing advance band. here with a calculated distance of 0.58. 8 miles from the base of the tower. And. then between 205 and 259, the target. cell phone uh maintains these two. calculated distances. and would be somewhere within these. bands between 205 and 259.

at uh 2 o'clock. uh the uh target self target device for. henryten53gmail.com. is uh located uh in the at the basically. at the tenant residence location or is. consistent with being at that location. Um then by 206. uh is departing that area and is at near. the intersection of old Kings Road and. Edgewood Avenue. Then at uh 208 you see.

cells site usage for 7612. to the east for a data session and then. at 210 a uh Google location along Martin. Luther King Jr. uh farther to the east. Um so uh between 2:00 and 2:06 uh Mr. tenants phone moved north and east. towards Old King's Road and between uh. 202 and uh 205.

uh Mr. uh Fernandez's phone moved into. uh the same area as the tenant residence. and consistent with potentially being at. that location. >> So there's an we don't have data for. every second or every minute here. The. last. known point for Mr. Fernandez's phone. would be in this bar or as you said at. one to two bands within that band. >> Yes. >> At 202.

And Mr. Tenan's geoloccation data puts. him here at 2 p.m. and then here at 206. So we've got presumably there's four. minutes in here. We don't have a precise. location for Mr. Tenan's device. and. between 202. perhaps within two bands and 205. We. know Mr. Fernandis is somewhere within. this banded area. >> Yeah. So there's some possible overlap. there for uh you know a few minutes uh.

during that. >> being generous. We're talking three to. four minutes. Being conservative we're. talking a minute perhaps. >> Yes. Approximately. >> So January 29th we have. some movement. We have the geoloccation. data for Henry Tenan moving south from. the Tenan residence into. um this is an overview into the Nati. Green Leaf Village area.

>> Yes. >> And is the times of these data points. consistent with. well you tell me what does this indicate. to you the time between these data. points the distance and timing between. them? uh that the device was uh moving. uh in a vehicle at a rate of speed. consistent of highway speed south and. east uh from the uh Jacksonville area uh. south um to the Green Leaf Village area. on the map. >> All right. And we're going to have a.

closer up view of some of this activity. This is slide 21. Um, this also you have. mapped here a license plate reader. report and location for that that. corresponds with some of these data. points. And again, was this something. that the detectives provided to you in. this case? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And how is it helpful to you placing. some of these don't have that radius. confidence radius.

How is something like this uh helpful to. you in coming to conclusions about data. overall? >> Uh so it uh you know they those types of. data sets it's a location uh for u a. vehicle um you know that is assigned to. a specific person uh so they help. corroborate one another. And looking at this map, what opinions. or conclusions can you draw about the. location of Henry and 53 at Gmail uh on. his device for this time frame?

>> Uh that it moved uh into the area at. approximately 2:46 a.m. here near uh. Racetrack Road uh and then uh moved uh. south um and then east along Nati. Parkway uh then south toward Valley. Ridge Boulevard. Uh, and then south and. east along County Road 210. >> And I'm sorry, you said AM. You mean PM? >> I'm sorry, PM.

>> Slide 22, we have another license plate. reader report, and that also corresponds. with one of your data points. Can you. tell the jury what conclusions or. opinions you can draw from the data on. this slide? Uh so at uh 245 and 13 seconds the. target cell phone moves uh in uh here is. located here. Um it moves into the area. Uh and so uh again this is just zoomed. in of the previous uh time frame we're. showing uh showing the um location of uh.

the target device. On this slide, slide 23, we see two. areas of interest and those were. provided to you by detectives in this. case. One is elite gymnastics at 175. Cumberland Park and the other is u an. address that was advised to you to be. the location of the deceased victim in. this case at 182 Fresno Lane. >> Yes. >> And can you explain what the data.

indicates to you from this slide? So, um, the device remained stationary for a. few minutes between 256 and 259 just. east of Interstate 95 along Old County. Road 210. Um, and, uh, I'm sorry, before. that, um, it moved from the north and. east near 210 and Beacon Lake Parkway, uh, here, um, south and west along Old. County Road, uh, 210. Slide 24, we have here the area of.

interest indicated as elite gymnastics. Can you tell us what the data indicates. on this slide? >> Between 3:00 indicated here along Old. County Road 210, uh where we left off on. the previous slide, the target cell. phone moves back uh north and east uh. towards along County Old County Road 210. um and then turns south moving towards. uh the Elite Gymnastics location. uh. moving south of it and by 305 and 53.

seconds and then back north up the same. route. >> and we see here this data point for. geoloccation is 30553. the next data point and correct me if. I'm wrong timing wise. be this 30640. >> yes ma'am. >> here but 305 306 and then 307 307. >> correct back out this way. Okay.

3:04 to 3:07 p.m. Is this just a more uh. close-up view of the data we just looked. at? >> Yes. >> Slide 26. Can you explain to the jury. what we're looking at here? Uh so this shows the uh gross movement. uh or travel of the device uh uh. accessing henrington and53gmail.com.

between 3:08 p.m. and 3:47 p.m. uh. moving away from the area of Elite. Gymnastics and uh the victim residents. uh north uh back towards uh the. Jacksonville Beach area. >> And on that route we have 308 to 313. We. have an area of interest here. Can you. indicate to the jury what the data on. this slide is showing you? Uh so uh this. shows an overview on the slide that uh. the target device moved along uh the. blue dotted hashed line that I'm showing.

here um along County Road 210 and then. uh moved south along Beacon Lake Parkway. um. stopping uh here along uh at this. intersection of uh with Beacon Lake. Parkway and uh Linds or Fresno Court and. then move back north uh and then north. and east away from the area. >> And here we have some more data location.

points showing I guess a more zoomed in. view and fewer data points from that. previous slide. Can you explain what. what is indicated here? >> Yes. So I just uh zoomed in and showed. uh a little bit less data points uh for. presentation purposes. And now I'm. showing the specific times and. confidence radiuses uh when available uh. for those locations, showing the. movement of the target cell phone north. and east along County Road 210 west, then south on Beacon Lake Parkway. Um.

and then uh after this point, the phone. moves out of the back north and out of. the area. And here we have in new time order. movement from 309. 311. 3102. and then here coming back to this data. point 311 48. >> Yes. >> So 48 seconds later. >> Yes ma'am.

>> So back to uh 5239 PTOAC Avenue. During. this time frame, we're looking at timing. advanced data for Mario Fernandez's cell. phone. Can you tell us what is indicated. in this slide? Yes, a lot of data on the left, but uh. this uh device was uh receiving a lot of. timing advanced signaling uh during this. time frame uh with three different. calculated distances ranging from uh 39. to 48 uh miles from the base of the.

tower between 304 and 3:45 uh p.m. Um uh. which overlaps uh geographically with. the tenant residence location. Um, and. you can see the the shaded area of those. three bands. >> And here we see a bunch of timing. advance recorded data, which means what. we talked about earlier, your phone. communicating without you generating any. kind of activity with the tower. Was. there any cellular activity, user genu.

user generated or user received cellular. activity for this time frame? >> Uh, no ma'am, not during this time. And then here um Mr. Tenan's Gmail. location data again corresponding with. another license plate reader report. and this is in. down here from Ponavidra for this LPR. hit. And what does this indicate to you?

>> So this is at 337 and 47 seconds on. January 29th. Um there's a uh Google. location uh nearby very close at 337 and. 45 seconds. Um and then that shows that. the phone uh the device uh accessing. Hendrington and 53 uh continued to move. uh north um along Third Street uh and. then um towards the Red Flag crime scene. location.

And here at 3:43 p.m., we have a Google. location point on Sanctuary Boulevard. South with a confidence ratio of 4. meters. So, can you say with a degree of. confidence and certainty that that um. that plot point is in particular a. pretty precise location? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Indicating that Mr. Tenon's device was. at Sanctuary Boulevard South at this. time period. >> Yes.

And then from 348 to 423. we see well you can tell me what we see. but Mr. Tenon's device appears to be. traveling back to the vicinity of 5239. Marsh Inlet. I'm sorry 5239 PTOIC. Avenue. >> Yes. So you can see uh that um the uh. target device and uh 7612 target cell. phone in green um they appear to move. together. um 353 event here. Uh 356 here.

uh along JTB or Highway 2 to uh 403. um here near South Point uh at 95 in. JTB. Uh there's a Google location there. at 403 as well. Um then 409 uh there's. an event uh from Henry 10 and 53 and. also the target south on 7612. and then. uh arriving back in the vicinity of the. tenon residence at approximately 4:20.

p.m. Uh during that time, target cell. phone 2633 in pink uh utilize the same. tower and sector that we were looking at. before between 3:48 p.m. and 4:23 p.m. uh for several timing advance events. >> And during this time frame, although Mr. Fernandez's phone is recording this. timing advanced data. Was there any user. gener generated or received cellular. data for that time frame? >> Uh there's no phone calls to map during. that time frame.

>> And here we see that Mr. Tenan's device. is located in a with a confidence ratio. of 30 meters at this general location. And you've made that a little bit of a. bigger. data point. And Mr. uh Fernandez is in. that timing advanced band from. with a recorded data at least at 42030. and 42334. >> Uh yes. So within about 18 seconds. there's a timing advance band of 044. miles which is roughly the same distance.

that the uh tenant residence is from the. tower. >> And here we see I guess a more close-up. view of that. >> Yes. We see that they are coll-located. potentially the device is colllocated. for a time period of at least three. minutes. And then here on slide 33 we see the. pink phone belonging to Mr. Fernandez. beginning to travel away from the. residence. Can you describe for us the route of. travel?

>> Yes, ma'am. Uh the phone moved uh south. and east um uh along um. uh Highway 23 um through the downtown. Jacksonville area and then across the. St. John's River um Matthews Bridge um. between 4:25 and 4:37 p.m. Apologize. I. accidentally drew that large. Can you. describe to me what this box means? You.

have both the pink and the green in one. box. >> Uh that during that time, both target. cell phones, um again about 3 minutes. apart, 421 and 424, both target cell. phones used the same tower and same. sector. >> And then we see that Mr. Fernandez's. phone moved from this band to this band. with a reading here at 425. >> Yes.

And that gets us through January 29th. Um, your honor, in terms of scheduling, does the jury need a break? >> Okay. >> I thought that might be the answer. >> All right. Um, how much longer do you. think? Should we take a shorter break so. you can finish up the day? >> Yes. >> Okay. We'll take five minutes. just. refresh yourselves really quick and you. can buzz when you're ready to come back. out.

>> Sure. Okay. All right. Please let the record reflect. that the juryy's left the courtroom. agent. You can step outside real quick.

and refresh.