Day 2 of Caleb Flynn murder trial

that were on side inside of the garage. door on the floor. 164. Uh this is a a close-up photograph of. the door handle and the rose or the. collar just showing the damage uh on. both. 165. Uh, this is a close-up photograph of the. wood that was located on the garage. floor. and 166.

>> This is a another photograph with. placard 22 just showing the the wood. fragments on the floor. At this time, state would move to admit. the photos in exhibits 8 through 166. into evidence. >> Any objection? >> Uh, no. The court will admit states exhibit 8. through 166 and evidence. >> And the state would also move at this. time to admit exhibits 250.

to 253. >> Any objection? >> No. >> The court will admit states exhibits 250. to 253 into evidence. The state would. also move to exit to admit states. exhibits 260 to 263. >> Any objection? >> The court will admit states exhibit 260. through 263 and evidence. >> And finally, state move to admit. exhibits 266 and 267.

>> Any objection? >> No. >> Court will states exhibit 266 and 267. into evidence. I have no further questions with this. >> Mr. Mullman, at this time, do you want. to begin your cross examination? I don't. know how lengthy it would be. >> Um, it could be a little while. I don't. know what the court's thoughts are. for lunch. >> Let's break for lunch now. We'll take an.

early lunch, reconvene. um at 10 of 1 and we'll begin the. defense's cross- examination of this. witness. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, the. jury, um, I'll have you back. If you. could be back in the building and in the. jury room, um, at 12:40, that'll give us. some time to get acclimated and get a. fresh start at 10:01. Again, uh, you're. not to discuss this case amongst. yourselves. Do not permit anyone to. discuss it with you or in your presence. It is your duty not to form or express.

any opinion with regard to this matter. until it's finally submitted to you. Do. not discuss the case or speak with any. of the attorneys, the parties or. witnesses in this matter. Likewise, they. cannot converse with you. If anyone. should attempt to do so, please notify. my baiff or the court and we will. address it properly. All right, see you. all back at 12:50.

Council matters before we go off the. record. All right, >> we're off the record.

Please have seat. We're reconvening in case number 26 CR. 88, State of Ohio versus Caleb Flynn. Uh. we are um. starting commencing our afternoon. session on the third day. Um we are in. the midst of a special agent Hammond's.

uh testimony. We're going to begin. cross-examination. before we bring in the jury council. Is. there anything that we need to address? >> Mr. Mor, please bring in the jury. Special Agent Hmon will remind you. you're still under.

Ladies and gentlemen, Joy, please have a. seat. Welcome back from your lunch break. I'll. remind you to turn off your phones and. those in the gallery the same. Uh we are. going to begin with the cross-. examination of special agents by uh. defense council.

Mr. Mullen. >> Yes. Thank you, Judge. agent that. so bottom line when you come on the. scene in a situation like this when. you're called as the secondary agency or. called in to assist you're coming on the. scene after the event. Correct. >> Correct. >> And basically you're working backwards. Correct.

>> Um could you maybe explain that a little. bit more? Well, you did not witness the. event. So, by definition, you're. starting at somewhat of a disadvantage. You're working backwards and trying to. find a solution. Correct. >> I think that's correct. I didn't I. didn't I witnessed the answer. >> And on some of the preliminary questions. um this morning, you indicated that. the PCI was particularly competent when.

doing a blood splatter uh pattern. analysis. Correct. >> Can you ask that one more time, please? >> Sure. On some of the preliminary. questions this morning, you indicated. that BCI was good at doing blood. splatter pattern analysis. Correct. >> Um the crime scene unit is is uh. particularly trained to look at um uh. blood splatter patterns uh when the. conditions are right to do so. >> Okay.

And that was not done in this particular. case. Correct. >> Uh because of the conditions. >> Okay. And one of the advantages. sometimes in blood splatter analysis is. to determine who in fact was on the. scene at the time. Correct. >> That would be something that we would. look at as far as like a reconstruction. Yeah. >> Sure. If you're close enough as the. perpetrator to the actual scene, you can. end up with blood splatter on you in the.

right situation. Correct. >> Correct. >> Did you order the seizure of what Mr. Flynn was wearing on that particular. morning? >> Um, and discussions with the detectives, some of the conversations were to to. retrieve his clothing from him. >> And nothing was found on that clothing, was it? Um 3 days after the initial. scene um I went to the London office of. BCI. uh where a DNA um scientist looked at.

clothing. Uh there was some blood found. on one particular item but it wasn't. sufficient enough for us to do anything. as far as a blood spatter. reconstruction. Bottom line, there was. no match. >> a match to his DNA or to. >> Well, of course, there would be a match. to his DNA of what he had on his person, but I'm talking about a match of blood. splatter from Ashley onto his clothing.

from that particular incident. There's. no way to say that. >> I'm not aware of that evidence existing. >> Thank you. So, also in preliminary uh discussions. this morning, hours ago, you indicated that you came upon the. scene and that your arrival time was. 7:09 a.m. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. And that was. a long time after the 911 call. Correct.

>> Several hours. But certainly if the 911. call was around 2:30, we're talking a. bunch of hours. Correct. >> Um, just doing the math, three, four and. a half. >> Thank you. And um, as far as when you. got on the scene, you were quote unquote. given a briefing and that briefing came. from the police. Correct. >> Correct. And.

we know from that briefing that no one. saw the intruder in this particular. case. Correct. >> Um the briefing didn't indicate that. anyone was identified as entering the. house. >> and no one saw the door that the person. entered. I think the briefing indicated that the. uh perpetrator or the the person entered. through the garage was the information. that was provided. >> Sure. And that information came from a.

nonlaw enforcement trained individual. who was under great distress at the. time. >> Um I was provided that information from. the Tos Police Department. The only. person that they got that information. was from Mr. Flynn. >> Okay. And the jury got to see what state. he was in when that information was. being provided. >> Objection. Is there a question?

>> Yes. Um, sustained. >> Bottom line, you accepted the briefing. without interviewing Mr. Flynn. Correct. My role at the scene was to. >> Is that a yes or a no? >> Can you ask the question again? >> Sure. You did not interview Mr. Flynn. >> That's correct. >> So, you accepted the wording and the.

briefing without interviewing the source. of the information. on that particular jacket. Correct. >> My role as a scene was. >> I don't care about your role. That would. be a correct statement. That's a yes or. no question. >> That's correct. And I did. >> Thank you. As far as your. decision. or um a conclusion that there was no. forced entry on the rear door, you found.

that door to be unlocked. Correct. >> I did. >> And you don't know how many days that. door was unlocked. Correct. >> That's correct. And when you got your briefing, you were. told there was a refrigerator that sat. in front of that door. >> Yes. Implying that the door was never used. Yes. >> I'm not sure. >> Okay.

As far as the damage on the outside of. the door, the door handle and what have. you, the what you call I think the rose. Um that damage. cannot be determined when that occurred. >> I can as far as a time. No. >> So we don't know how many times. the person who did that came to that. particular property to do that. Correct. I I can't provide that answer.

>> And there's no test that you're aware of. that would determine whether or not that. door was eventually um picked. In other. words, the lock was picked. You have no. idea. >> I I don't. >> I don't think there is a test for that, is it? >> I don't believe so. You indicated that there were some items. and I believe that there was a. photograph of some items in the freezer.

of the refrigerator. >> Yes. >> And the only thing that was in the. bottom of the refrigerator was a little. box of baking soda. >> Yes. >> Okay. Did you weigh the refrigerator? >> I did not. >> Did you try and move the refrigerator? >> Um, I did not. Did you measure how much. force would we use on that door to move. that refrigerator? >> I did not.

You would agree with me that there would. be no way to determine the last time. that door, that garage door, I'll call it the side entry door. was open before 216 of 2026. I don't know that answer. There's no way.

that I could determine that. Now you indicated at one point in your. testimony that you gave tips the tip. city police department the job of in. investigating the workbench. >> I did. >> Why? um the amount of work that we were. providing uh in other areas of the. house. At times um when there's an area.

that needs to be searched, there's a lot. of work that's involved. Uh sometimes we. have to farm that work out um to the. other investigators who are very. competent to do those things. >> Okay. Do you have you ever worked on a. burglary case in Tip City before? >> I can't recall any. >> Okay. Did you ever work a homicide in. Tip City before? >> I don't remember any.

>> How do you know what their competence is. then? >> Um, you know, they're all trained police. officers. Uh, they're all detectives and. investigators and, um, you know, a lot. of these guys had mentioned that they. had been working these types of jobs for. several years. Okay. You would agree with me that not. all police departments have the same. level of skill. >> That's correct. >> Some are clearly better than others.

>> So, and one of the reasons why they. might be better is because they have a. lot of repetition. in terms of being able to work on these. kinds of cases. Um, you know, I think that investigators. um. all of these scenes are are very similar. in a lot of ways. You take pictures, you. take notes, you you make diagrams, you. do all of these things. So, there's lots. of practice. And so, working suicides or.

question deaths or burglaries, um, the nuts and bolts of it are all the. same. >> Okay. Did you go back to 932 Cunningham after. 216. of 2026? >> I don't believe so. >> So, your uh day was a 12-hour day that. first day, correct? >> Yes. You noted that there was a passport.

found in the um glove box of the uh. minivan and that it was Caleb's. passport. Correct? >> Yes. >> And you have no idea how long it was. there? >> I do not. >> Do you know whether or not uh either of. those people traveled internationally? >> I have no clue. >> Did you ask anyone? >> I do not.

One of the things that you were. searching for on that particular day was. the firearm. Correct. >> Correct. >> It's an important thing to find in that. homicide case where there might have. been a gunshot wound, right? >> Correct. >> Okay. And you indicated that. DCI they're, you know, they can get uh. pretty destructive uh looking for a gun. Correct. Um we have um torn things apart, dismantled things. Um yes.

>> Why was that not done in this case? >> Um the information that I have u as far. as the subsequent searches were um there. was a very intrusive search of the. house. Um one particular thing that I. was told was done was the insulation. from the attic was removed. I appreciate that. Thank you. But as far as BCI, after the numerous.

searches that we will find out that city. attempted to do for this gun, BCI was. not called back to knock the place over. to find the gun, were they? >> Um, the second day of this investigation. was the day that I submitted evidence. and um at that point they had additional. help that came in. Um, we help as long. as as we're needed in whatever role that. they would like. >> Certainly. >> But as far as pieces of evidence in a.

homicide case, the gun is pretty much. the most important piece many times. Correct. >> Uh, it can be. >> Okay. Exhibit number 73 was a photograph.

Teresa. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> You're fine. >> I apologize. I was looking down. >> Yes.

While that's working, I'll come up. Oh, it is on. Okay, thank you. Exhibit number 73 appears to be a. photograph of the master bedroom. Correct. It. >> is.

>> And that's a photograph that you took. Correct. >> Yes. >> And that there that hall. that hall goes directly to the garage. door. Correct. >> It does. >> Did you measure how far from the garage. door it is to the entrance of the master. bedroom? Um I didn't but the 3D scanner uh that. we employed would have recorded that. measurement.

I have a photograph, exhibit 61, that appears to be a rendition of that. digital. outline. From looking at that, can you tell what. the um.

distance is between the door entering. the home from the garage and the master. bedroom? >> Do you know that distance? >> I do not. >> Uh. >> I could estimate for you. >> Big guys like you and me might be able. to do it in less than two steps. Correct. >> Maybe three or four. I'd have to be disabled to do it before.

Okay. Or on my knees. Good. Okay. Basically, it is a straight shot into. It is a straight shot into the master. bedroom from that garage door. Correct. >> Correct.

You indicated that you found a couple of. um cartridges. on the floor of the master bedroom. Correct. >> Cartridge casings. Yes. >> Casings. And that's what's left over. after the bullet leaves. the casing. Correct. >> Yes. Travels down the barrel. Yes. >> Okay. And on the bottom of the casing, there's an indication as to who the. manufacturer of that particular casing.

was. Correct. >> Correct. >> And these two casings happen to match. Correct. >> They had the the same headstand. >> Okay. Who made that? >> Uh the Western Cartridge Company. >> Okay. And are you aware whether or not. that can even be purchased locally? >> I do not. >> Okay. Do you know if it can even be. purchased at all in the United States as. of 2026?

>> I'm not aware of that. >> Okay. Did you try and find out? I did not know. >> these photographs. and there was a there was a bunch of. them. What time, if you remember, did. you start taking photographs? >> Uh, once the search warrant was signed. at approximately 8:13 in the morning.

>> Okay. You were asked about. um removing well you asked basically the. concept of what a a transfer stain was. at the scene and you indicated that we. created some of these transfers. >> I did. >> Okay. And did you record the transfers.

that you made or you're just aware that. they happened? >> I believe I docu documented them in my. report. >> The ones that you know of. >> and and photographed the the sheet. itself after that comforter was removed. >> And what if one was put inadvertently in. another area of the um of the home? >> That wouldn't be recorded, would it? >> The comforter with the blood stains. never left the bedroom. Okay. >> And never left the area of the bed.

>> Sure. >> It was placed directly into a brown. paper bag at the side of the bed. >> with what instrument? >> Uh, gloved hands. >> Okay. And did the person with the gloved. hands um touch anything afterwards? >> Uh, we would have changed gloves after. that. >> Do you know that? Yes. >> Were you just telling me what the. standard procedure is? >> No, I know that.

You talked a little bit about gunshot. residue. >> Gunshot residue. is something that's left behind after. the discharge of the firearm. Correct. >> Correct. >> And that's commonly in a handgun. Correct. >> Could be shotgun, could be rifle, could. be any kind of weapon. And those are the. three elements, lead, barium, and uh. what's the other one? >> Antimony. >> Antimony. Um th those items are.

discharged at the time that a gun is. discharged. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. And you indicated that um there. are technicians at BCI who in fact. analyze gunshot residue. >> That's correct. Okay. I happened to do a. trial a couple of months ago. >> Objection. >> Not relevant. Sustained. >> And you have experts who talk about. that, correct?

>> Experts that talk about gunshot residue. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> And they talk about the number of. particles that are left that they. actually pick up. >> That hasn't been my experience that. maybe things have changed. Well, when was the last time that you. were involved in that? >> Um, the last time that we um had gunshot. residue at a trial, probably several. years ago. Okay. >> Well, science evolves. Correct.

>> It does. >> Did you request lab testing for the. casings? >> Uh, yes, I did. for what? >> Um, one of the things that we were. interested in was predictability of a. potential firearm that that fired it. Um, I testified a little earlier that I. swabbed it for touch DNA.

um, and entertain that as evidence. But. we put that in we put the cartridge. casings into the lab in an an attempt to. figure out what type of a weapon fired. them. You're hoping to find. the gun that discharged. those particular cartridges. Correct. >> Correct. Based on the firing pen. impression and the ejector markings. >> Sure. And the strippling on the casings. Correct.

>> Um, it's not like a term that I'm. terribly familiar with. Most of the time. we talk about firing pin impressions and. uh ejector marks. markings. >> Yes. >> And those markings are many times. peculiar to the individual firearm that. fires the the the actual cartridge. >> And in a lot of ways they have. individual characteristics and then they. have class characteristics which could. maybe get us from u maybe narrow it down.

to one particular manufacturer. Now, you were on the scene early in the. morning, 7:09, and then there was a. search warrant that was signed an hour. or so later, and you were in the house. for a significant period of time. Correct. >> Correct. >> And the one thing that you did not. notice while in the house was a strong. scent of cleaning solutions. Correct. >> Um, I think that uh my report documents.

that in the bathroom, in the master. bathroom, There was no odor of. chemicals, harsh chemicals or cleaning. solutions. >> Sure. And one of the reasons why you. analyze that and you make note of that. in your report is to find out whether or. not the scene was cleansed, >> correct? >> Or altered. >> Correct. >> And there's no evidence of that in terms. of cleaning solutions. Correct. At the.

time that we were inside of that. bedroom, um you know, four to five hours. later, um there was no odors that we. could detect. >> Now, one of the things that probably. perked the interest of the jury this. morning was the pinkish red stain in the. sink in the kitchen. Correct. Correct. And you would agree with me that that. was thoroughly tested as you indicated. this morning and that was negative for. any any uh uh uh sign of blood.

>> That's correct. towards the end of your testimony, you were talking about um and I I tried. to write it down. You tried to follow. the scenario that was laid out. and what you meant I think by that and.

correct me if I'm wrong. That was from. your initial briefing that you got early. in the morning. interactive. >> We investigated it um the scene and. processed it. Um moving along that. scenario that someone had broken into. the garage, had come in through the. door, entered the hallway, went into the. bedroom, shot Ashley Flynn, and then. fled. >> And that was the only scene that was.

analyzed, correct? >> No, sir. >> Well, it was the only track that you. were on. Correct. >> Um, every single room in that house was. photographed, scanned, and examined for. potential evidence. >> I didn't see in the kids bathroom that. there was um fingerprint uh analysis um. powder that was put on there. Correct. >> Correct. >> And that was the door or excuse me, the. window that you found was unlocked.

Correct. >> It was. You would agree with me that a person. wearing gloves defeats that track. Correct? >> Can you ask that one more time, please? >> Sure. You would agree with me on your. fingerprint path that a person wearing. gloves. >> defeats that track? >> Um, I'm not sure what you're what you're. really asking. Are you talking about. entry into the bathroom window or what.

are you I guess what are you asking? You. were on a track to find fingerprints. Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. And on that track, you had the ability to. basically find. what was on the track. My point is that. if a guy is wearing gloves, then that. beats. fingerprints.

Um, gloves would be a barrier between. the friction ridge and the surface. that's being fingerprinted. So, we would. not find friction ridge in those. locations. >> True. It's a complete barrier. >> It is. So, then you agree with my statement. that that would defeat. fingerprints. The only thing you need to. do for that is wear gloves. And I noticed the prosecutor this. morning put on gloves when he was. handling the latent print cards. Is that.

to deter to deter fingerprints from. being on the label print cards? >> The print cards are just dirty. They're. covered in fingerprint dust. >> Got it. Now, as far as. latent prints in the home, you would fully anticipate. fingerprints being in the home of all. the family members. Correct.

>> Correct. >> You would expect them from Caleb. Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh Ashley. >> Yes. >> The kids. >> Yes. And you would expect um uh at least um. halfway cute paw prints from the dogs, correct? >> Oh, potentially. >> Okay.

And on that particular day when you left. the scene, nothing had yet been submitted to any. labs. Correct. Uh when I left the scene. at um approximately 7:30 that evening, I. drove several pieces of evidence to the. bowling green lab at PCI.

>> Long day. >> Long day. >> And but this is before any. analysis by the labs at the end of the. day with you. >> Um it maybe a different way. I'm not. understanding what you mean. >> Well, sure. At the end of the day, your. first day on the scene, nothing had been. analyzed. by a laboratory. I mean, that's so. basic, >> correct? >> So, the garage door um that is the my.

understanding is that place had a um a. threecar garage, correct? >> Yes. >> And there was one. I'll call it wide door and a single. door. Correct. >> Correct. >> Did you do any analysis of the um garage. door code. um that was used to enter that. particular home? >> Oh, I did not. >> Do you know the garage door code?

>> I do know. >> I do. So bottom line, you're aware. that there is um there are kids um. unfortunately with Tik Tok um accounts. who are figuring out how to steal key. fob signals. from people's key fobs. Correct. >> I I'm not aware of that. >> Never heard of that as a policeman? I.

It's not something that I've. investigated as part of the crime scene. unit. >> I didn't ask if you um uh investigated. it. Do you ever read the paper? >> Um. seldomly. >> Okay. So, bottom line, do you are you aware of. um the electronic signals from people's. garage door openers being stolen? >> I I believe that is a thing. >> Okay. And do you believe are based on.

your knowledge those signals can they be. used later to open garage doors? >> U potentially. >> Okay. Uh was there any fingerprint. analysis uh done from the garage doors? >> From the overhead doors? >> Yeah, the overhead doors. Thank you. No. Okay. >> One moment. Mhm.

There was a couple of um photos of your. um sort of towards the end of your. testimony as far as the um uh photos of. the uh fingerprint duster things. And one of the um photos was of the um. Chrysler um or Plymouth minivan. Correct. >> Correct. >> And there was a print on the um uh.

minivan. Correct. >> Yes. >> Um. we cannot determine when that print was. put on that car, can we? >> As far as a time and a date, I cannot. >> Okay. >> I don't have anything further. Thank. you, judge. >> Any redirect can stay? >> Yes, they are.

>> Agent Hammond, what was your role at the. crime scene? Uh my role was to. investigate the crime scene, to document. it, and to collect um evidence. >> And in your time at BCI, when you were. in the crime scene unit, how many times. did you have that role at a crime scene? >> Every time.

>> Approximately how many crime scenes? >> Um at BCI? Um. hundreds and hundreds maybe. And of. those hundreds and hundreds, how many. times have you interviewed witnesses to. the crime? >> Almost never. >> You mentioned it's been a couple of. years since gunshot residue has been.

discussed at a trial. Is that correct? >> Correct. >> Why is it not talked about more often? It's it's something that we use um less. and less frequently um because it's a. because it's a fragile evidence and so. many um so many instances or so many. circumstances have to be right for. gunshot residue to play a pivotal role. uh in a case.

And why weren't the conditions right for. blood spatter evidence in this case? >> Um, in this particular case, um, there's. some things that prohibit me from doing, uh, more of a a blood spatter. reconstruction. Um, one of the things I. touched on earlier was that the surface. uh, where the blood is deposited has to. be smooth. we have to be able to measure. um the angle of impact. um and calculate a point of convergence.

and come back to a point of origin. Um. in this case the lamp uh was textured, the walls themselves were textured. Um. and then then quality or the quantity of. the stains themselves. we have just a. handful of stains. Um, it's not really a. pattern that we want to put forth an. opinion as far as the mechanism itself. It's it's just to be safe. >> I have another question. John, >> thank you. Cross.

for the Thank you, judge. >> He may step down. See, your honor. >> Yes, your honor. At this time, I'm. looking for Bernie. >> Agent Hammond, you've been excused. >> Mhm. >> Mr. Watkins, if you like to call your. next witness.

State calls crime scene tech. Miss Cracker, if you'd like to come up. to the witness stand, turn and raise your right hand. Miss. Odenorf will swear you in.

Mr. Watkins, you may inquire with this. witness. >> Thank you, honor. >> Ma'am, could you please state and spell. your name for the record? >> My name is Holly Risa, spelled H O L L Y. R Y C Z E K. >> What's your educational background? >> Um, I have a bachelor's of science.

degree in forensic and investigative. science from West Virginia University. With whom are you currently employed? >> The Ohio Bureau of Criminal. Investigation. >> How long have you been with a PCI? >> Approximately 2 and a half years. >> What's your current position? >> I'm currently a crime scene technician. >> What positions have you had in law. enforcement prior to this current? >> Previously, I was a crime scene. technician at the Davenport, Iowa Police. Department. >> Can you briefly describe your training.

and experience in crime scene. investigation? >> Yes. Um, as part of being employed with the. Davenport Police Department and the Ohio. Bureau of Criminal Investigation, I've. had um in-house training as well as over. 500 hours of continuing education. training for crime scene related topics, including um shooting reconstruction, blood stain pattern analysis, um, and. other types of of forensic trainings.

Approximately how many felony crimes. have you investigated during your. career? >> Um, approximately. 150. >> On February 16th, 2026, how were you. assigned to assist police department. with a homicide investigation? >> Um, I was called by our call taker, Larry Heatman. Um, and he advised that, um, an incident had occurred at 9:32. Cunningham Court. Um, and that special.

agent Dave Hammonds was going to be the. lead for the scene and I was to assist. him with the scene processing. >> What time did you receive the initial. call? >> Um, I received the initial call probably. around 6:30 in the morning. >> And approximately what time did you. arrive to 9:30 to Cunningham Court in. Tip City? >> Um, around 8 that morning. >> Who was present at the scene when you. arrived? Um, special agent Hammond was. present along with other investigators.

who were part of the Tip City Police. Department. >> And was the crime scene take off and. secured? >> Yes, it was. >> Who's in charge of the crime scene while. you were on site? >> Um, special agent Dave Hammond. >> What did you do first after arriving on. scene? After arriving on scene, I met. with Special Agent Hammond and the. investigators with the Tip City Police. Department, and I was briefed on what. exactly the scene was and what. information they had at the time. >> What' you do after the briefing?

>> After the briefing, I took an initial. walk through the crime scene with. Special Agent Hammond. Um, and we. developed a plan for how we wanted to. process the scene. >> And what were you tasked with doing? Um, I was tasked with mainly swabbing areas. of interest for potential touch DNA. I'm. >> showing you what's going to enter into. evidence 6 exhibit 61. >> Do you recognize that? >> Yes, I do. >> What do you recognize it to be?

>> Um, this is a scene diagram that I. created from the 3D scans that were. taken at the crime scene. >> And can you tell us what uh we can. observe on that diagram? Yes. In this. diagram, um you can observe the whole. layout of the house. Um as well as the. items of evidence that we marked, um. fingerprints that were dusted and lifted. and the areas of um blood that were. located.

>> Where's the primary bathroom located in. relation to the primary bedroom? Um, the primary bathroom is just to the. north of the bedroom. >> How would you describe the overall. condition of the bathroom? >> Um, I would say it was very clean. >> What did you examine for diluted blood? >> Um, I examined the sink drain and the. shower drain for suspected blood.

Did you observe any signs of diluted. blood? >> No, I did not. >> What did you do regarding the sink. drain? >> Um, for the sink drain, we tested it. with a chemical called. tetromethylenzadine. Um, we call it TMV for short. And. essentially, it's a presumptive test for. blood. Um, so you will have a swab and. you'll swab the area that you're. interested in. And if either your swab.

turns a blue green color, that means. that it is possibly suspected blood. If. the swab does not change color, that. means that it is not suspected blood. >> And did you test that area with TMBB? >> Yes, I did.

I'm now showing you what's been marked. for identification purposes in states. exhibit 256. Do you recognize that? >> Yes, I do. >> What do you recognize it to be? >> Um, this is an envelope that's. containing the swabs um from the master. bedroom sink drain. >> And is that the same envelope you placed. the swab in? >> Yes. >> And is it in the same condition? >> Um, no. It appears that is it has been. um opened and it has some different. writing and stickers on it than um when.

I had turned it over to the Tip City. Police Department. Are all the seals. still intact on it now? >> Yes, they are. Awesome. >> You mind opening that for us? >> Yes.

What's inside the pack? >> Um, inside are. is a swab that um I collected from the. scene. Um, as well as a envelope that states it. contains trace debris. >> And that's the swap you collected from. the sign. >> Yes.

How'd you test the sour shower drain? >> Um, I repeated the same process with the. TME. >> And how what did it test for? >> Um, it did not test positive with the. TME.

Where else did you swap for blood in the. primary bedroom? >> Um, I also swapped for blood on one of. the light switches that was located um. nearest to the entry door to the master. bedroom. >> Showing you what's been previously. marked for identification purposes. exhibit 255. Do you recognize that? >> Yes, I do. What do you recognize it to. be? >> Um, this is an envelope that should. contain swabs of the suspected blood um. that was on the light switch, which we.

had marked as area A. >> Is that the package you placed the swab. in? >> Yes. >> How is the package changed since you. last saw it? >> Um, again, it looks like it has been. opened and has some different writings. on it. >> Are all the seals intact? >> Yes, they are. >> Could you please open that for us?

And what's inside? >> Um, inside are two of the swabs that I. used to collect the suspected blood that. was on the light switch. And how did you test the blood on the. light switch? >> Um, again, I tested it with the TME. >> And how did it react to the TMB? >> Um, it had a positive reaction.

>> What else did you test in the. primary bedroom? Um I also I had swabbed um both the. interior and exterior door handles um. for that bedroom door. >> So that's the door that's leading from. the hallway into the master bedroom. >> Yes. >> Natural engine has been previously. marked as states exhibit 257. Do you.

recognize that? >> Yes, I do. >> What do you recognize it to be? Um, this. is the envelope that I place the swabs. from the exterior master bedroom door. handle in. >> And is that that's the package that you. placed the swab in? Yes. >> And how has the condition of that. package changed since you last saw it? >> Um, again, this package has been opened. and it has some different writings on. it. >> And all seals are intact. >> Yes, they are.

>> Could you open that for us, please? What is that in your hand now? >> Um, these are the swabs from the. exterior master bedroom door handle. >> The swabs that you collected DNA with? >> Yes. >> The swabs that you put in that envelope. >> Yes.

now showing you state mark. identification. This is the states. exhibit 258. Do you recognize that? >> Yes, I do. >> What do you recognize it to be? >> Um, this is an envelope that contains. the swabs from the interior master. bedroom door handle. >> And how has that package changed since. you last saw it? >> Um, it has been opened. It has different. writing on it. And. >> that's the package you place the swab. in. Yes. >> And are the seals intact on that item?

>> Yes, they are. >> Could you please open them? >> What's inside? >> Um, these are the swabs from the. exterior master bedroom door handle. And those the exterior or the interior?

>> Um, exterior or I'm sorry, interior. >> And those are the swabs that you use to. swab the interior door handle of the. primary bedroom door. >> Yes. >> Now showing you what's been previously. marked for application purposes. It. states exhibit 259. Do you recognize. that? Yes, I do. >> What do you recognize it to be? >> Um, this is an envelope that's.

containing the swabs from the master. bathroom sink handles. >> Is that a package you place the slab in? >> Yes. >> And how's it changed since last time you. saw it? >> Um, it has been opened and there are. different writings on it. >> Are all the seals intact? >> Yes, they are. >> Could you open that for us, please?

What's inside? >> Um, inside is a swab from uh the master. bathroom sink handles. >> That's the swab you use to collect DNA. from the master bathroom sink handles. >> Yes. Where did you swap for DNA in the. garage? >> Um, in the garage there was a silver. Ford F-150 truck. Um, and we swabbed two.

areas on that truck. >> What two areas? >> We swabbed the front driver exterior um. door handle as well as the center. console um latch to let the center. console kind of go up a little bit. So, where on the center console do you saw? >> Um, the latch, the release latch. >> I'm now handing you what's been. previously marked for identification. purposes. The stakes exhibit 254. You recognize that? >> Yes, I do. >> What do you recognize it to be?

>> Um, these This is an envelope containing. the swabs um of possible touch DNA from. the center console release latch. >> Is that the package you placed the swab. in? >> Yes. How has that package changed since. you last saw it? >> Um, it has been opened and there are. different writings on it. >> Are the seals all intact? >> Yes, they are. >> Could you open that for us, please?

>> What's inside? Um, this is the swab used. to collect the potential touch DNA um, from that center console release latch. >> You collected the DNA with that swab? >> Yes. >> Did you examine the north side garage. door? >> Yes, I did. >> The side pedestrian door?

>> Yes, I did. >> How many. force doors that have been forced open. have you observed in your entire career? Um I've s I've observed probably 20 to. 30 um forced entry doors. >> And how did this door compare to those. 20 to 30 you previously observed? >> Um it appeared inconsistent with the. forced entry that I've observed on other. doors that had forced entry to them. >> How did it appear inconsistent? >> Um typically with forced entry, you'll.

see some kind of marking on the outside. of the door. Um, if someone uses bodily. force like kicking or using some kind of. object to force open the door, you'll. get marks on the kind of the face of the. door. Um, if someone tried to pry open. the door, you might get tool marks on um. the side of the door um or the kind of. framing of the door. Um, with this.

particular um, damage, I did not see any. kind of damage to the outside of the. door. The only damage was on the inside. >> I have a moment of judgement. >> Amen.

At this time, I'd move to admit states. exhibits 254 to 259 into evidence. >> Any objection from the defense? >> The court will admit states exhibit 254. through 259. >> I have no further questions, John. >> Thank you. cross- examination. >> No, thank you. >> Um, Miss Risac, did I pronounce it.

correctly? All right, you can step down. >> Your honor, at this time should be. released from any defense of as well. You're. >> excused. You may.

going to get their next witness and it. coming from.

>> Let's just go off the record. I don't know.

Mr. Watkins. >> Yes, sir. Pastor 7.

Thank you. We are ready to proceed.

We're reconvening case number 26 CR88, state of Ohio versus Caleb C. Flynn. Uh. we just took a brief recess to allow the. state to call their next witness. Um Mr. um Joseph from the state, would you like. to call your next witness? >> Yes, sir. The state calls Dr. Brian. Castell. And just for the record, the. state has showed the defense council. opposing. >> Thank you.

So noted. Dr. Casto, if you'd like to come up to. the witness stand here. You would turn and raise your right. hand. Miss Odenorf will swear you in.

Mr. Joseph, you may inquire with this. witness. >> Thank you, honor. >> Sir, can you please state your name and. spell your uh first and last name for. the record? >> Brian and Casto. B R Y A N Cast is C A S. T A. >> And where are you currently employed? >> At the McGomery County Corner's Office. in Dayton, Ohio. And what's your title. at the coroner's office? >> I'm one of the deputy coroners and. forensic pathologist. >> What does forensic pathologist mean?

>> So forensic pathologist is a um. specialty uh physician who is focused on. investigating uh sudden unexplained. natural or traumatic deaths. We do that. primarily through the use of the autopsy. and then ultimately my job is to give. opinions about cause of death and also. manner of death. Manner of death meaning. like homicide, suicide, natural. accident, that kind of thing.

>> How long have you held that position? >> Uh since 2002. >> Are you a licensed physician? >> Yes. >> In what states do you hold medical. licenses? >> Uh state of Ohio, state of Indiana. >> Dr. Cass, can you please walk us through. your educational background? >> Sure. I have a bachelor's degree in. sports medicine and athletic training. from Marietta College, which is here in. Ohio. I then went on to medical school. and got my MD degree at um Marshall. University in Huntington, West Virginia.

Uh following medical school, I went to. Muny, Indiana for 4 years of general. pathology uh residency and then I. followed that with two years of. fellowship in forensic pathology in. Dayton, Ohio at the Montgomery County. Corner's office. Uh those years were for. the fellowship were 02 to04 and then I. just stayed on as a staff member there. ever since. So, and when did you join the Montgomery. County Corner's offices as a coroner?

>> So, including my training years there. being O2 2002. >> And including your fellowship, approximately how many autopsies have. you performed? I personally performed. approximately 7,000 autopsies. and then of course um as a fellowship. program uh we do have uh in training. physicians and so I've supervised. several several hundred others. >> Are you a member of any professional. organizations related to forensic. technology?

>> Yes. Um the American Academy of Forensic. Sciences or AAFS is one organization. It's not just forensic pathology. It's. all forensic specialties and then um. name or national association of medical. examiners. Uh that's that's primarily. just pathology and it's related death. investigators. >> Your this time the state tenders Dr. Casto as an expert in the field of. forensic pathology. >> Any objection? >> The court will deem this witness an.

expert in forensic science. >> Thank you. >> Dr. Caster, I want to direct your. attention to the February 17th of 2026. Were you off assigned to perform an. autopsy on that date? >> Yes. >> And where did that take place? >> And Dayton at the McGomery McGomery. County's Office. >> Approximately what time did the autopsy. begin? >> Uh 7:10 a.m. >> And how was the uh body identified to. you? >> As Ashley Flynn. >> And after completing the autopsy and.

receiving the toxicology results for. Ashley Flynn, did you prepare a final. autopsy report? I did. Your honor, may I approach? Good night. Council has been previously marked as a. 184.

>> Thank you. Please look at that, sir. >> Okay. >> You tell the grand jury what that is, please. >> This is a signed autopsy report on. Ashley Flyn Flynn, signed by myself. It's six pages. It does not have an.

attached toxicology report, but um so. this is just the autopsy report itself. Is that uh report there a fair, accurate, and correct representation of. the autopsy report you authored on that. day? >> Yes. >> And Dr. Cass, during the autopsy, were. photographs taken? >> Yes. >> And who took those photographs? >> Uh Tiffany F. >> Is that the procedure for an autopsy?

>> Yes, we use multiple um assistants as. photographers. You're addressing. it over. record shall reflect.

Thank you.

Okay. each other injury with those or. photographs of please. >> This is a um.

number of selected autopsy photographs. This does not represent all the. photographs from the autopsy, but uh. this is a significant portion of it. >> And are those do those photos fairly. accurately correctly depict uh the body. as it appeared on the day of your. autopsy? They do. >> You're on permission to publish. You may. exhibit.

Can you please tell that with that fix? So this would be um what we call an as. received photograph of the full length. right side of Miss Flynn. Um so what I. mean by as received is nothing has been. changed, nothing's been removed. The. only thing that's been done to the body. is just to remove uh the remains from a. transport bag. So this is the first uh. set of photos right side fully.

>> And that's just for the record that. states exhibit 167, states exhibit 168. What is that today? >> Okay. This is a photograph of the left. arm. So, uh, there's a shirt still on. and and the purpose of this photograph. is to show a pair of holes, uh, in the. shirt down by the left elbow. >> Next,

169. >> This is that same area, closer up of. these two holes. These holes are. secondary to gunshot wound. This left. elbow area Mm-. >> what? 170. >> Please describe that for the grand. injury or for the jury. >> Uh this is a picture of the back of the. head and there's has not been any.

washing done at this point. So, you're. seeing um hair and brain matter and. blood um obscuring what eventually is. determined to be two gunshot wounds to. the back of the right side of the hip. >> Just viewing this photo, can you tell um. how many gunshot wounds there are? >> Yeah. >> Can you tell that there were any gunshot. wounds on just this photo? >> No. >> I'm sorry. I think was 170.

This is 171. >> 171 is described out to the jury. >> Uh this is a similar photograph to the. back of the head. Um again, there are. two entrance gunshot wounds in the. middle of this photograph near the um 1. in tag. Um but they are not very well uh. viewed because of the brain and hair.

72. Please describe that photo for the jury. >> Okay. So, this is a series of what we. call second photos or clean photos. So, at this point, the external evidence has. been um collected. The body's been. disroed and washed. And so, uh the. purpose of this particular photo is to. show the facial identity of the deedent. Um,

by the way, there's a black placard next. to um the deedent's left ear. That's. just our case number, the year, and then. TF is just the initials of the. photographer. >> And what is the injury that you can see. on that photo? >> So, besides her identity, this. photograph also depicts a large open. fracture of the frontal skull. This is. the result of two um bullets exiting the. head in a head.

You can also see in this photograph um. maybe not at this resolution but the. left eye appears somewhat blackened um. like it's bruised like a small area. black eye that is actually due to the. gunshot wound. That's not a separate. injury. Can you explain that a little. bit more? >> Yeah. So, she has an extensive amount of. skull fracture related to these gunshot. wounds. One of the areas that is.

fractured is the uh bony plate directly. above the left eye. And that um when. that bone is fractured, it will uh leak. blood down into the thin skin of the. eyelid and it will give you more. appearance of a black eye even though. you may have never had any trauma to. that area. exhibit at 173. Please describe that to the jury. >> Okay, so this is a closeup view of that.

same area. I think it's easier to. appreciate the blackening of the upper. eyelid. Um I should mention that this. wound has been shaven by myself. Part of this exit wound is within the. hairline and so um would not be well. visualized. So the scalp has been shaven. in that area. This is a fairly large. wound um secondary to a shared exit of. two bullets. There's also in my opinion. probably some bony fragments that are.

coming through the skin in this area and. resulting in a fairly large injury. >> This is a 174. that photo. >> Okay. So this is a uh fairly close. photograph on the left elbow. This would. be the outer aspect of the elbow on the. left side. This is um what I'm going to be terming.

a re-entry wound. So this is related to. a gunshot wound. In fact, there is a. bullet just below. um the white uh 1 in tag there. um beneath the skin. This wound I. believe is a re-entry from one of the. bullets that has exited the left. forehead and her arm was in a position. such um that that bullet then re-entered. her body at this elbow area.

>> So you think that her arm was underneath. her head at the time of being shot? >> Correct. >> So 175. Can. >> you please describe that to the jury? >> Okay. So finally we're able to see um a. pair of entrance gunshot wounds. So this. is the back of the um head on the right. The ear that you see at about 12:00. position on your screen is the right. ear. And so um I think you can.

appreciate in the shaded area that there. are two um circular injuries. They. actually meet and share a portion of the. entrance wound to the back of the right. head. >> And what does that tell you about um the. firearm being shot? The closest of the. wounds. >> Well, um it just indicate that these. entrance wounds are very close together. They also. um share uh parallel paths. So they are.

not only starting in a very close. proximity to one another but then their. paths go through the brain basically. parallel to one another and then they. exit in the same area of the left uh. frontal scalp. It would just imply that. um there's probably this is a close. close range uh uh injury. Um. just based on that perspective. >> and you said it's close range. Does it. tell you anything about the timing.

between the two shots? >> No. >> And you said the other side was shaved, but they're shaving hair as well. Who. did that? >> I did that. Yes. >> And why did you do that? >> Uh, basically these wounds were hardly. visible with the um hair. Mrs. Flynn has. a very thick head of dark hair obscuring. the wounds. It's standard procedure. Shave like this. And prior to this. photo, were you able to to know how many. shots have been fired? >> No. >> Based on the body?

>> No. With washing of the uh body and. fairly detailed parting of the hair, I. did eventually find what I thought to be. a gunshot wound in that area. And then. once I started shaving it, I realized, okay, there's actually two wounds here. They're just partially sharing an. entrance. Stay. >> on one side of the section, please. Please describe that. >> Okay. So, this is a photograph back to. that left elbow. You can see the.

entrance wound, that re-entry wound. there at the top of the uh screen. The scalpel is in the photograph um to. indicate that I have made this cut in. the skin directly over this uh object. which is actually the bullet um the. copper jacketed bullet there within that. incision. So again that I had made that. incision to to recover this bullet. It. was not an additional injury. >> and was did you recover the bullet?

>> I did. >> And what did you do with that? Uh so it. would be um photographed and then placed. in a plastic vial with a label that I. have signed and dated and uh and then. placed in a sealed bag for evidence. >> And what was it what was done with the. evidence after it was sealed? >> Uh it would be packaged and ultimately. um. released to the investigating police. agency. Exhibit.

177. Please describe that to the jury. Okay. So, this is a internal photograph. of the left side of the skull. So, for orientation, um the scalp has. been reflected forward. The skull has. not the brain is still within the skull. None of that has been removed. And what. we're looking at is a large um. defect to the uh frontal skull. So this.

is a skull directly beneath that large. exit wound that we saw earlier. >> And what does that photo tell you? >> So the purpose of this photo. specifically is to show. um external beveing of one of the exit. wounds. So in this large uh injury I was. able to identify one circular uh exit. and at that site the uh fracture of the. skull where the bullet is exiting from. inside the brain and through the skull.

has created an external bevel and that. is what we would expect. Um I did not. find a second circular defect um but it. would have been through this same area. icious that there's so much fractures. um that it's really not visible to find. the second one. >> 178. >> Please describe that for the jury. >> Okay. So, this is a similar internal.

photograph with the back of the scalp. reflected down uh over the neck. And. this would be again about the 2:00. position on the screen. That's the right. ear again. And now we're seeing the bony. defect of this pair of entrance gunshot. wounds to the back of the head. I think. you can appreciate that there's two. circular holes in this skull here and. then they meet in the middle where they. share a common entrance.

>> 179. Please. describe that photo area. This is a. closeup of that same um uh entrance area. from the out from the outside portion of. the skull. Again, just uh showing. um the pair of defects. >> Basically one, please.

>> This is that same area now looking on. the inside of the bone. And so uh the. purpose of this photograph is to show. how the skull is beveled on the inside. which again is what we expect. The. bullet is coming from outside and as it. as it breaks through the skull it tends. to uh bevel an area of fracture around. that hole larger than what you see on. the outside. and six is at 181.

Please tell the jury what that is. >> This is a postmortem full body uh x-ray. of the deened. Um. there's two items that actually three. items that light up very brightly. Um, one is down on the uh left hand. That's. a ring on her finger. At the left elbow. is our bullet that I have recovered that.

we showed you a picture of uh insizing. the skin. And then up in the mouth area. is another bright white area and that's. just a a dental filling. >> Exhibit 182. >> Could you please describe that for the. jury? >> Okay. So this is the uh bullet. recovered. This is the only even though. she has two gunshot wounds, this is the. only bullet that was in the retained in. the body. And this is the one recovered.

from the left elbow. Um it's got a full. full metal jack and it's deformed as you. would expect after going through the. skull. >> And that's the 183. Please. try. >> This is the same bullet. The previous. photograph was just from the side of the. bullet. This is the looking at the nose. of the bullet. >> And again, what did you do with that. bullet after you took this photo? >> Uh, so that would be placed in a after. being photographed, you placed in a. plastic vial. It's sealed with a lock. and a label and then placed in a sealed.

plastic bag for evidence. >> I approach you. that.

what is that? So, this contains that plastic vial I. was speaking of. On the outside of the. vial is a label with our case number. Did you see this name? Uh my signature, where I got the bullet, date and time, >> and does it appear? Is that the. packaging that you put it in? >> Yes. >> And is it is there anything any issues. with the seal? >> Uh not that I can tell.

>> And does it look like anyone else has. has opened it? Uh it may have been for. purposes evaluating the board, but the. board is in the same condition that I. put in. >> Yeah, sure.

This is. again this is this is the plastic um bag.

that we would seal the vial in right in. the morg. Uh it would be heat shrink. There's a signature. um of one of the morg decks. over that heat shrink appears to be. intact with never been never been open. >> Appear to be in the same condition as. when you uh saw it before. >> This stuff.

Just put it back in the. >> Anything else of note on the external. examination of of the victim actually? >> Uh, she basically has no other injuries. other than um her gunshot trauma. and she has no natural disease.

you know with the remainder of the. organs examined. >> So nothing else of note of the external. examination. What did you do after the. external examination? >> So that would be where we would make um. large surgical incisions, remove all the. major organs, weigh the solid organs and. I would dissect all the organs. Um. again in part um determining path paths. of trauma but also uh just doing a.

completed autopsy documenting natural. disease. >> anything out of the ordinary internal in. internal examination. >> No. >> And so what did you do after that? >> Um so at the time of autopsy we would. also collect body fluids for potential. toxicology testing. Ultimately, I would generate a written. report. and uh since it's a homicide, they'll go. through a QC process just to make sure. there's no uh errors of significance and.

then it would be signed. >> What's a QC process? >> Just quality control. Basically, another. pathologist in the in our group is going. to look at all the things that I looked. at the photographs and the report and um. determine if I've made any significant. errors. And what toxicology testing did. you order in this case? >> So we ordered a routine um testing which. is drugs of abuse and alcohols as well.

as many other. uh medications. Um additionally I don't recall if it was. the day of the autopsy or the following. day but I was requested by law. enforcement to look into the possibility. of testing for melatonin. Melatonin. Um, melatonin is not something that we would. normally pick up on our routine screens. and so it would be a more directed. specialized test and I discovered by. talking toxicologist that that was.

possible and we did that in addition to. our regular toxicology testing. >> And what did you note in your report. regarding the toxicology results? >> So there's two items present. um one is. a anti-depressant Prozac that many. people are familiar with um and then the. other melatonin was actually detected um. and it is at a significantly elevated. level and what I mean by that is your.

body does produce melatonin and so um. you know we we we expect to detect some. just based on our normal. production, but the value in Ashley's. blood is. I think pretty convincing related to um. consuming uh in an exogenous form, a. melatonin tablet or a liquid or.

something like that. >> But not an abnormal abnormal amount from. your perspective that of someone to. take. Um it's a fairly high level but it. is a level that uh people do reach when. they are taking melatonin especially at. higher doses on a daily basis. You will. you can reach this level just with. routine everyday use. >> Uh did you also collect a a DNA card in. this case? >> Yes. >> Uh tell the jury about that. >> So uh in our office uh we do a DNA card.

on all uh bodies if possible. That. basically involves taking a couple drops. of blood and placing it on a special uh. paper um and then that is allowed to dry. and that becomes a permanent DNA sample. from this particular person that's being. autopsy. >> And why do you do that? >> Uh we do it um because DNA is a commonly. requested um. evidence to compare to. We also do it on.

every case, not just homicides. Uh just. in case there's ever a question about. identity, we have a solid uh specimen to. help with that. For the same reason, we. fingerprint every person that comes. through our morg for the same reason. just in case there's ever a question. about identity. >> And what do you do with the car? What. did you do with the card after you? So. the card would be allowed to dry in our. presence and then ultimately one of the. more technicians would package it along. with all the other evidence.

>> May I approach your honor? >> You may. defend council. It's been previously. marked as dates exhibit 273. >> Tell the jury what that is. >> Yes. So, this is um. it's a folded. cardboard stock and then inside that. folded cardboard is a piece of filtered. paper that would have um her blood on. it. It has a the reason I know that it. has our label with her name, our case.

number, and um. listed on or attached to that card. >> And is that the packaging that you put. the card in? It would be in um. it would be in the same sealed plastic. that I showed you on the bullet. We do. not use the red. bags. So, this would be a different bag. >> So, who did who did who did that? >> Um.

the initials are AG, it appears. I would. not know that. >> So, someone else opened the bag. >> Yes. Yes. Is the seal still intact? >> Yes, it is. >> Your honor,

I just have one second. Your honor, >> you may. Thank you, your honor. >> Dr. Casto, based on your autopsy. findings, were you able to determine the. cause of death? >> Yes. >> What is your cause of death. determination? Uh,

>> multiple gunshot wounds in the head. >> You hold that opinion to a reasonable. degree of medical certainty. Certainty? >> I do. Thank you. At this time, your. honor, I'd ask the states exhibits to. review the evidence. >> The court has uh states exhibit 167. through 184. >> Yes, your honor. And 272 and 273. >> Any objection from the defense? >> No objection. >> All right. The court will amend states.

exhibit 167 through 184 and states. exhibit 272 and 273. cross. >> cross examination from the defense. >> Thank you honor. Very briefly. >> Good afternoon Dr. Castell. >> Okay. >> Uh you indicated on direct examination. and from the photos in the exhibits that. we saw that the entrance wounds for the. two projectiles that uh were recovered. were almost overlapping. Is that. correct? >> They actually do overlap. They do. overlap. Okay. And uh from that uh in.

your autopsy report, you listed that the. gunshot wounds were from an. indeterminate range. >> That's right. >> As you are here today in open court and. you testified before the court today, it. is your opinion that the overlapping uh. entrance wounds indicate that these uh. wounds were caused from a quote close. range. Is that correct? Well, he would. he was asking what that would imply to. wound sharing a p similar path and.

entrance and exit defects. And so I was. just making the comment that in an. indoor scene. uh with shared entrance wounds, shared. exit wounds and parallel paths, but that. would imply a very close range. My. report is using the term indeterminate. because other than um the holes. themselves that are clearly entrances, uh I don't have any other features that.

would help me with a specific range of. fire. In other words, soot, um. gunpowder, something called gunpowder stippling, um. thermal injury. I don't have any of that. on the skin or even on the underlying. bone. to give a specific range of fire. So, you're right. My report says. indeterminate and it's indeterminate for. that reason. Um, I was interpreting um.

his question regarding what does that. mean to me for shared entrances that. have parallel paths and shared exits. To. me that would imply nice close range but. the specific range of fire in my report. is not determined or indetermined. >> Okay. So it is your opinion here that. you are unable to uh determine the. specific range at which these wounds. were caused. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> That's right. >> Um and we do not have a specific um.

distance that you would be able to tell. us about today from your examination. >> That's right. No, we do not. Um you. mentioned um gunshot residue, stippling, things like that. Can you explain to us. what that would indicate if you have. found it? >> Okay. Yeah. So um. when a firearms discharge more than the. bullet comes out, there's uh gases and. soot and um burnt gunpowder, burning. gunpowder, partially burnt gunpowder,

and so and and even flame. And so all. those things can affect the skin if the. weapon is against the skin or very close. to the skin. Um and so for example uh. you know some of those things will just. travel a few inches. versus like gunpowder that is able to. travel you know a few feet. And so when. you have those items present on the. skin, now you have something to work.

with to determine, okay, um, now I know. a certain range of fire. It's a rough. range because there's many other, um, variables related to the weapon and the. gunpowder. So in case in the case of Mrs. Flynn, we. do not have those other items. We don't. have a uh thermal injury. We don't have. soot. I don't have gunpowder. um in the. hair or gunpowder stpping or abrasion in. the skin and so um that is uh the in the.

absence of those I cannot determine a. specific range. >> Thank you Dr. Casten. No uh in your. report as well you indicated that the. thickness of Miss Ashley's hair was a. factor in your ability to visualize. whether or not stippling and those other. chemicals were present. Is that correct? Well, I was actually I mentioned that. the thickness of the hair and the blood. in the brain made it difficult to. actually see the entrance wound until.

after washing the the uh head. >> So, the presence of those different. factors, would that have stopped you. from being able to test for any sort of. chemical that was contained within her. hair because of that? So, um, for example, what what you're asking, those items are things that we're. looking for just with the naked eye. This the searing gunpowder stiffly. Um, and I think what you're hitting at is.

the hair plays a role in being able to. see that hair can stop things like soot. Hair can stop gunpowder from ever. reaching the skin. It can act as a. barrier basically. So would you be able. to test for those things within the hair. itself? Is there a test for that? >> Not to my knowledge. >> Okay. >> One moment you're on. >> Mhm. >> Uh and also in your report uh I did not.

see that there was a specific time of. death or a range uh that was estimated. for her time of death. Is that correct? >> That's right. Why is that? >> So, that's not something that um our. office puts in the autopsy report. Keep. in mind, the first time that I'm seeing. Ashley Flynn is the day after her. injury. She's been removed from the. scene. She's been placed in a cooler. overnight. And so, really, the best.

determinant of the post-mortem interval. or what you're calling the time of. death. That's really best done at the. scene. You have all the environmental. factors there. it's a much uh it you. don't have the um artifact of cooling. the body in a cooler overnight and that. kind of thing. So yeah, we don't. normally assign a specific time of death. in our autopsy reports. >> So through your training and experience. and your time and working in the. coroner's office and working on. different autopsies, do you typically.

see that someone who was first on the. scene would provide you with an. anticipated or I I suppose an estimated. time of death? >> I suppose. Sure. Do you don't know how. often? >> No. >> Okay. >> I have no other questions at this time. Thank you, Dr. Sure. >> Mr. Joseph, any redirect? >> Dr. Per, you may step down. Is he. released? >> Yes, your honor. Thank you.

>> You're excused. Mr. Watkins, would you like to call your. next witness? >> You may.

You can lay your uh note tablets on your.

seats during this break. Um, also. as previously given, and you're going to. get sick of me saying this, but it's. very necessary. Uh, ladies and. gentlemen, the jury, do not discuss this. case amongst yourselves. Do not permit. anybody to discuss it with you or in. your presence. Do it. Do not do any. investigation or attempt to obtain any. other information about this case. outside this courtroom. It is your duty. not to form or express any opinion with. regard to this matter until it's finally. submitted to you. Do not converse with. any of the parties, witnesses, or.

attorneys. and likewise they cannot. converse with you. If anyone should. attempt to do so, please notify the. court and we will address it promptly. We'll be back on the record at 5 to 3.

Sorry.

to defense council and I believe they.

have no objections to it being I place. it back on the table and I believe they. have no objections to to it being. >> is that so Mr. Mulligan or Miss Smith. >> that's correct no objections your honor. >> okay so that uh 184 from the states um. exhibit list will be amended. >> thank you There's nothing further, Miss. Osun. Bring in the jewelry.

Heat. Heat.

Ladies and gentlemen, the joy, please. have a seat. We are reconvening after midafter. afternoon break. State's going to call their next. witness, Mr. Joseph. Would you like to? >> Thank you, honor. Detective Adam.

Bernard. >> Detective Bernard, would you like to. come up to the witness stand? >> Try and raise your right hand. Miss. Odorf will swear you in.

Mr. Joseph, would you like to inquire. with this witness? >> Thank you, honor. Sir, please state your. name and spell your first and last name. for the record. >> My name is Adam Bernard. Uh, A D A M. Last name is B E R N R D. >> And where are you currently employed? >> I'm a detective with the city of Tip. City. >> And how long have you been a detective. for Tip City? >> Approximately eight months. And prior to. that, where were you employed? >> I was employed at the Westchester. Township Police Department. >> Uh, how long have you been with the city.

total? >> Total, I've been here almost 8 years. >> Eight years. And what were you prior to being a. detective with the city? >> I was a patrolman. >> What training did you receive in order. to become a police officer? >> I did the standard, excuse me, police. academy. Um, I've done various things. such as read, interview, and. interrogation. Um, I've done things such. as legal updates. uh first and fourth. amendment updates as well as some search. and um search classes as far as cartel. traps and narcotics investigations and.

things like that. >> And do you have any uh education that. has assisted you in your uh role as a. police officer? >> I have a bachelor's degree in criminal. justice for my state. >> Any other specialized training? >> No. >> Detective Bernard, were you assigned to. investigator or report homicide on. February 16th, 2026? >> I was. And did you respond to the call out? >> I did. And. >> what time did you respond? >> Approximately.

uh 3:45 in the morning. >> And this was the 9:32 Cunningham Court. >> Correct. >> Who was it the scene when you arrived? >> Uh Detective Klein and Detective. Sergeant Morgan uh were the officers. that were there. >> What did you do when you first arrived? >> I entered the residence. Um I saw. Detective Morgan speaking to the. defendant. Um, at that point I spoke. with Detective Klein to try and get an. update on anything that had been um any. knowledge had been obtained since I've. been called. >> Okay. >> What' you do next? >> After that, um, Detective Sergeant.

Morgan asked me to assist in getting uh, the defendant some clothes due to the. cold weather. Um, so I obtained some. clothes from the dryer as far as like a. sweatshirts and socks and things like. that to be more comfortable. >> And what did you do after that? After. that, I was advised that BCI was going. to come uh process the scene. So, we. exited the residence and went out to the. cult uh to secure the scene in order. >> What did you do upon exiting the scene. or the residence? >> Um, we decided we were going to start. canvasing the surrounding houses for any.

surveillance footage as well as speak to. the neighbors to see if they had um any. information or if their security cameras. had caught anything um related to the. incident. >> How many addresses did you can. approximately? Uh, I went to nine. >> nine houses. >> Nine houses. Yes, sir. >> And without saying what they told you, what did you learn relevant to the. investigation? >> Nothing. >> What did you do after the canvasing? >> After the canvasing, I went back to the. culde-sac um to wait. BCI still hadn't.

arrived on scene. Um, so we just kind of. kept the scene secure until BCI arrived. Um, and then they advised us they wanted. to go in and process the scene um by. themselves. Um, so we just continued to. wait until. >> Okay. Uh, eventually did you reenter. enter the residence? >> We did about. >> What did you do at that time? >> Um, senior special agent Hammond uh led. myself, Detective Sergeant Morgan and. Detective Klein around the residence. Um, we started in the bedroom where the. main uh crime scene was. He showed us a.

couple um key points and then he led us. to the garage where the um forced entry. was said to have occurred. Um, and at. that point we had noticed uh Ashley's. phone was sitting on the dresser. So he. has to go back and collect her phone. from the dresser. >> And did you collect that phone? >> I did. >> Did you photograph the phone prior to. collecting it? >> I did. Yes, sir. >> I approach. You may.

>> showing detective has previously been. entered into evidence as exhibit 81. Whose. >> phone is it? Ash. >> Uh, Miss Bl. Okay. Thank you. >> Apologize. >> Go ahead. You can publish it.

>> And again, where was that located? >> It was on the nightstand on her side of. the bed. >> Yes. showing the detective was been produced. in Marked. as stage exhibit 264.

Can you please tell the jury what that. is? Tell the jury what it is. >> Uh, it's an evidence envelope um with my. handwriting on it that states it is an. iPhone 14. Um, it's serial number 99. >> Is that the packaging you put it in? >> Yes.

>> And do you is that how it looked when. you put the packaging in or is it has it. been open since? >> It has been open since. And what was the. purposes of that as you can tell from. the packaging? >> Um, it would be to transfer it to other. agencies or units uh to download it to. get a forensic download of the phone. Um, so we can see the information. contained inside. >> Are all the seals intact? >> Yes. >> You please open it.

Can you please tell the chair what that. is? >> It would be the iPhone I collected from. the next day. >> And is that iPhone in the same roughly. the same or is it in the same condition. that it was the day you collected it? >> It is. >> Does anything look different at all the. day you collected it? >> No. >> A fair and correct representation of.

what it looked like the day you. collected it? >> Yes. And again, obviously you just spoke. about the packaging. What did you do. with it after you? I gave it to. Detective Sergeant Morton. >> And after you did that, what did you do?

>> Um, after that, they asked us to exit. BCI asked us to exit the residence so. they could finish uh their. investigation. So we um with their. permission took the phone with us to. have it downloaded and left. >> Let me direct you to February 17th. What's the first thing you did on that. day regarding this investigation? >> I met with Captain Smith who advised me. that uh he and I were going to attend. Ashley's autopsy. >> And what did you do after the autopsy? I. returned to the uh I returned to the. city and my uh job each morning was to.

print out um the tips from the night. before uh that the road patrol had. gotten and I was going to give those to. the um FBI and there for them to follow. up on. >> And what did you what did you do after. that? >> Uh after that I finished logging in some. um some evidence uh from the night. before. um just made sure all that was. secured and done packaged correctly and. secured in our uh in our lockers. Um. >> explain that process to me please. >> So we have a system called Spillman. So. when we obtain a piece of property, we.

will take it, we will enter it into our. our local reporting system which gives. us a property number. From there, we put. into a secured locker um that there's. only one person that can open, which our. property manager um police specialist. gruff. Um and at that point, he enters. it into his into Spillment again on his. side of the processing portion to put it. into property. Um and he'll physically. take it and put it in our secured. evidence room. >> So on February 17th, you log a bunch of.

things into evidence, >> correct? >> And put them in the locker room. >> Yes. And how long did that take? >> Uh, it took uh couple hours. >> I'll direct your attention to February. uh 18th. Uh, did you do anything. involved in this investigation on that. date? >> Um, I again did the tips and passed them. to the FBI. Um, I was asked to go back. to the house and um, secure a couple. tools. Um, so I collected a few tools um. and things before I was approached by.

Detective Klein asking me to assist him. in something else on the scene. >> You go back to the rules, your honor. May I approach? >> You may. show defense council wasn't. specific. 192.

and tell the jury what it is. >> It is a hammer that is contained inside. a toolbox. >> Does that say the toolbox was in when. you arrived on scene? >> Yeah. No. >> What What did you do to the toolbox to. to get that phone out? Uh I just opened. the lid and then that was how it was. presented when I open the lid. >> And is this the uh you collected it at. that time?

>> Correct. >> Your honor, >> you may be very accurate representation. of the hammer on that day after you open. the tool box. >> Yes, sir. >> And again, where was that located? >> It's on the workbench uh located in the. garage.

Your honor, I'm showing defense council. has been previous marked as states. exhibit 268. >> Before I wing it, please tell Jerry what. that is. >> It is a tip city uh evidence label on a. brown bag. And is that the per is that. the bag that you put the object in? >> It does. >> And does that bag look the same or. similar to how it looked when you put. the bag in or has someone opened it? >> Uh, someone's opened it. >> And do you can you tell us by reading.

the the bag or not? >> It was the um FBI. >> All seals intact. >> Yes. >> Please open that.

Just hold on. And just the camera in the same same. condition as it was the day you. collected it. >> It is. after you collected it. >> After I collected it, um you did find. coming out to the garage and speaking. with me. Um I secured all of the tools I.

collected at the time in individual. evidence bags uh and then secured them. in my department vehicle and locked it. Um, Detective Klein advised me after. that that he needed my assistance in. cutting out the side garage door. Um, so. he and I uh cut out the garage door. together for the next several hours. >> And what did you do after it was What. did you do with the door once it was cut. out? >> I assisted Detective Klein in taking the. door to his department vehicle. I. assisted him in loading it to the. vehicle and then I remained on scene to.

make sure I'd collected everything that. I had taken inside the house with me. >> And what did you do after that? I return back to the police department. Just logged in evidence. Okay. >> Does that include the hammer? >> That does. >> And. um same process as before. >> Yes. >> I'll direct your attention to February. 19th. Did you do anything this. investigation on that day? >> Again, I printed the tips out, gave them. to the FBI. Um after that, I was advised.

we were going a group of us were going. to go out and search the rear of the. residence. Um, so we went out and. searched the backyard area. Um, there's. some woods back there, more treated. areas, so we searched that, some rock. piles and things to make sure that had. been, um, done. We then went inside and. searched the inside some more, um, specific concealment places looking for. any evidence or anything that was. dropped. >> Uh, what'd you do after that? Um, after. that, uh, I, uh, we were waiting for.

Detective Elsass from the Miami County. Sheriff's Office to bring a high-owered. magnet. Um, we took that magnet and we. contacted our street department, had. them lift all of the storm drain grates, um, off of the runoff areas. Um, we took. the magnet, what we would do is drop it. in, make sure we got that area, and we. would swing it. So, go up and down each. of the connecting pipes. Um, and then. after that, I got down physically into. those culverts to make sure nothing was. missed or outside the reach of the. magnet for the flashlight to make sure.

nothing was in there. >> And then on these searches that you met. just mentioned on February 19th, did you. find anything of note? >> No. >> On February 20th, uh, what was your. involvement in this case? On February 20th, um again, Detective. Klein had told me we were going to. remove um both vehicles from the garage. Uh we wanted to make sure there was. nothing hidden up underneath of them. Um. so we put them on separate tow trucks.

He followed one vehicle, I followed. another. Uh we recorded the journey just. in case anything would fall off from. under the vehicles. Um and at that. point, we went to Warrior Racing where. they allowed us to use some of their uh. vehicle lifts. We lifted the vehicles up. so we could search under them any uh. void spaces or areas that something may. have been hidden. >> And you did this with both vehicles? >> Both vehicles. >> And anything of value found in that. search? >> No. >> And what' you do after that? >> After that, we returned the vehicles to.

the garage. um and put them back. >> in the condition that we found. >> And then what did you do? After that, we continued logging in at. evidence from the day before. for the rest of the evening. And then, well, I I apologize. I forgot. one thing after that. Um, Detective. Klein again came to me and advised we.

were going to rent a machine to take the. insulation out of the attic. Um, make. sure nothing had been thrown, tucked, or. hidden in the attic. Um, so we spent. several hours that evening um after the. evidence walking to take the insulation. out of the attic. >> And what was your role in that search? >> Uh, my role is to make sure the machine. um didn't clog. I was down on the uh in. the garage of the machine to make sure. it didn't clog. And if the bags got. full, I had to stop it. So, we tried not.

to blow um an excess amount of. insulation everywhere. >> So, you didn't go to the attic? >> I did not. Uh, detective help uh move to February. 23rd. Anything relevant on that day? If. you recall, >> uh, we were I believe we were going to. conduct a grid search, but it was um it. the weather was inclement, so we decided. to wait till another day to conduct that.

search. >> Okay. But eventually, did you uh. participate in a grid search? >> We did. Do you tell the jury what the. what the grid search is? >> Uh we searched the areas um if you're. familiar with where Cunningham Court is, there's an area where there's a park and. a bike path um and some woods. We. searched kind of that area uh just to. ensure that if anyone had gone that way, they didn't drop or leave anything. >> You said we who else? >> Uh there was probably 10 to 15 other. officers and detectives there assisting. in the line search. >> And is there a particular strategy in.

performing the appropriate search? We. all stood approximately 10 to 12 feet. apart and you try and walk in a straight. line as a group and scan kind of from. your shoulder to the next officer's. shoulders just to ensure you don't miss. anything. >> And how far out did you go with the. search? >> We went all the way to uh Ker Pulsar. where the high school is. >> and anything found at that time? >> No. Were you involved in looking in uh.

researching the defendant's firearm. purchasing history? >> I was. Yes. >> And how were you involved with that? >> Uh so I uh in one of the interviews, uh. he stated he bought the firearm where he. got his CCW. Um I was able to obtain his. CCW uh permit application, so I knew it. was in South Carolina. Um, so I called. several uh gun stores in the area trying. to find uh the 4473 that you have to.

fill out if you buy a firearm from a gun. dealer. Um, it'll list the make, model, and serial number of the original. purchaser to a certain uh make, model, and serializ serialized firearm. >> This is in South Carolina. >> Yes. >> And what firearm were you able to. attribute to Ashley or Caleb Flynn? >> No. Um, on March 24th, were you involved in. the investigation again? >> I was. >> And what was that? What was that. involvement?

>> Uh, Detective Sergeant Morgan informed. me we were going to go back to the. residence uh at 9:32 Cunningham Court. We were going to uh look for and secure. several um AirPods and their cases that. uh were in the residence. So, I assisted. him with collecting um AirPods from the. residents. back. >> You may. first show this attorney.

83. Please. tell the jury what that is. >> It is a photo of the nightstand from uh. the defendant side of the bed. Yeah, basically it's 2011 and 2012. >> Thank you.

>> Is that photo fair and accurate uh. representation of the what the bedside. table looked when you were there on. March 24th? >> Yes. I'm going to show you states 2011 and. 202 doesn't tell the journey what those. are. >> Uh one is a farther out view of the same. uh bedside table in the same bedroom. Uh.

that's 2011 and states exhibit 202 is a. closeup of an AirPod case uh that was. inside a bedroom. And those photos. fairly and accurately reflect the way. the bedside table and the airs look on. the day you collect the airbox. >> Yes. >> You may. >> showing space exhibit A3. Just be clear. who took that photo? >> Uh BCI did. >> And when was that taken? >> That was taken on the 16th. >> Face exhibit 2011.

And when was this one taken? >> That was taken on March 24th by myself. And what are you there is the what. you're there is left in the photo. >> Yes. >> And what is that? >> It's the AirPod case on the left side of. the drawer kind of by the belt 202. Is. that the AirPod case that you collected. on that day? >> Yes.

>> What did you do when you went to the. AirPod case? I took it back to the tip. city police department and again uh. entered the evidence. showing. marked. case. >> What exhibit is it? >> 265 your honor. >> Thank you. >> Certainly please tell the jury what it. is. >> It is a tip city evidence envelope um. with what says is AirPod Apple fourth. generation. uh inside of it. Notably,

there's no earpieces. >> No earpieces in the case. >> There's no earpieces. >> And were there earpieces in the case. when you collected it? >> There was not. >> And is the is that the packaging that. you put the AirPods in? >> Yes. >> And does it look as if anyone else is. has uh accessed those AirPods. or the case? >> It does not. >> And. uh is the seal still intact? >> It is. You know, please.

>> Can you please hold it up and tell the. jury what that is? >> It is the AirPod case I collected from. the Nex. >> And is that case in the same condition. that it was on the date you collected. it? >> It is. Please.

what you do with it after you packaged. it? >> I uh logged it in prior logged it into. evidence. >> in the same procedure as the prior ways. you log things in evidence. >> Correct. >> Did you write any search warrants uh as. a result of being involved with this. case? >> I did. >> And was one of those four brut messages? >> It was. And whose information did you. use or did you request group messages. from?

>> Uh the defendants. I requested two email. addresses and a phone number as. identifiers for the uh account. >> And where did you receive that. information? >> Uh it was found on his mobile devices. that had been given to us uh from phone. downloads and things. >> And after you drafted the search. warrant, what did you do with it? >> I sent it off to the parent company uh. Microsoft. >> I'm going to I'm going to back you up. What did you do after you drafted the. search warrant? Oh, I apologize. I wrote. it and submitted it to uh a judge to get. it approved. >> And was it approved?

>> It was. >> And then what did you do with it after. it was approved? >> I then sent it to Microsoft uh to be to. to obtain the data from search warrant. >> And how did you do that? >> Uh we have a list that's an open- source. list uh called ISP and it gives a list. of how companies want you to submit. search warrants. Um so I read through uh. Microsoft's way to submit search. warrants and then submitted it to their. parameters. And did you follow the. parameters? >> I did. >> And did you receive a response back from. Microsoft? >> I did on the 10th of March or April. >> And what was the response?

>> I received um a data packet which. included a password, a certificate of. authenticity. um and then a way like instructions on. how to open it. Um you have a password. from them to open it. Um so it stays. secure. So I received that and opened. the data packet. >> And what was contained in the data. packet? Uh there was 107,655. lines of data. >> And has that been that data been trans? Uh has that data been moved over to.

exhibits that you see in the courtroom. today? >> It it has. >> And how do you know that? >> Uh I because I reviewed the books that. contained in those boxes. >> And those books that are contained in. those boxes are fair, accurate, and. correct copies of what you received from. the from Microsoft. >> Yes. may approach. >> You may approach.

Enjoy councilman previously marked this. Thanks exhibit 203. Thank you. that. >> and for the record. This is a redacted.

version. >> I didn't hear that. >> This is a redacted version of the search. bar. >> Yes. So noted. Detective Bernard, can you tell the jury. what that document is? >> This is a copy of my search warrant or.

my affidavit written for the main. >> And other than the redacted portions, is. they is that search warrant a fair, accurate, and correct representation of. the search warrant that you submitted to. Microsoft? >> It is. states exhibits. 204 and 205.

Sorry, 204. Mr. Joseph. Bernard or Annu Mar 204. Can you please. look at that.

approach? You may.

Go ahead, Mr. Um, Joseph. >> Thank you, your honor. >> Detective Bernard, can you please tell. the jury what that is? >> Uh, this is a certificate of. authenticity for records. >> And who is it from? It's from a. Katherine Yuml who represents uh. Microsoft Corporation. >> And is that document uh a fair and.

accurate representation of document that. came with the group me data that you. received? >> Yes. >> Could you please read it for to the. jury? >> It says the title certificate of all. consisting of domestic records pursuant. to federal rules of evidence 902. partheses 11 and 902 partheses 13. The. contents are I, Katherine Yumul, a test. under penalties of perjury by the laws. of the United States of America pursuant.

to 28 USC code 1746. That the information contained in this. certificate is true and correct. I am. employed by Microsoft Corporation and am. a custodian of records and or otherwise. qualified to authenticate the records of. Microsoft Corporation. Microsoft. Corporation has provided the records. attached here to or otherwise separately. provided through reliable electronic. means associated with reference and this. is LNS-1774240-H1B.

0 S5. pursuant to a legal process. I am. familiar with how the records were. created, managed, stored, and retrieved. based on my training experience. I. hereby certify that the records attached. here are consistent with records. regularly conduct, excuse me, records of. regularly conducted activity and that I. am a custodian or otherwise qualified as.

the authentication of these records. I. also certify that these records are. one consistent with those made at or. near the time of the occurrence of the. matter set forth in the records by a. person with knowledge of those matters. or for information transmitted by a. person with knowledge of those matters. Two, consistent with copies made of the. original records described in the legal. process. Three, consistent with records. which are kept in the course of.

regularly conducted activity. for. consistent with records made by the. regularly conducted activity as regular. practice. I further certify Microsoft. records were generated by an electronic. process or system that produces an. accurate result to the best of my. knowledge. One, the records were copied. from electronic device or devices stored. to medium or mediums file or files in. the c in the custody of Microsoft. Corporation in a manner to ensure that. they are true duplicates of the original.

records and two the process or system is. regularly verified by Microsoft. Corporation and at the times pertain or. excuse me at the times pertinent to the. record certified here. the record of the. process and system function properly and. normally. the address and phone number where I can. be reached are and then it gives those. details and then she signed it. electronic signature. objection we would note that this.

document is not notorized which I. believe is uh also a requirement. so I believe it's still pure safe for. The um evidentiary rule 90214. uh does not specifically say that it has. to be certified. Um. well. >> it doesn't your honor. >> Go ahead. >> It does not say it has to be notorized.

>> I agree. So overruled. I. just have one second. >> You may.

Thank you. I'm sorry. >> It's all right. >> May I approach? >> You may. >> Defense council has previously been. marked as states exhibit 205. >> Thank you.

Please look at this exhibit.

I'm not going to make you read the whole. thing this time. Can you please uh. summarize that for the the jury as what. that document is? >> Uh what this is to me is this is was. provided to me by Microsoft. Um what it. is is it'll tell you where uh that they. complied with what was in the search. warrant, which is the three identifiers. that I asked them to look for. um that. this says that they found one uh under. an email address that was contained in. the warrant. >> And what was the email address? >> It was Caleb RDSS Interiors.com.

>> And again, I'm not going to make you. read the whole thing. Can you please. read that? I guess I'll call it a lens. number. It is LNS dash excuse me dash 17774240. dash H1 V0 S5. >> and does that uh number match the letter. the number from the certification? >> It does.

And is that uh exhibit you're holding a. fair and accurate uh representation of. the letter that you receive from. Microsoft along with the certificate of. authenticity as well as the data? >> It is. >> And again states states exhibit or I'm. now going to states exhibit 236. Um you. mentioned them before. Can you tell the. jury what those are? Uh those are the.

boxes that contain the printed out data. that I received of the group messages. >> And again, those fairly accurate. accurately and correctly represent the. data that you received from Microsoft. >> They do. >> And you reviewed boxes one, two, and. three of states exhibit 236. >> Yeah. Come over here, honor. >> Mhm.

Detective, were you involved in any. other. evidence collection in this case? >> I was. And was one of those a blink. camera? >> It was. >> And when did you collect that? >> On February 16th.

>> after BCI had turned over the scene. >> And did you photograph the camera where. it was found? >> I did. >> I may approach. You may. >> showing. defense council or actually the copy of. the mark There's 286 and 285.

Yeah, it's hard to see. >> Can you please tell the the jury what.

that is a photograph of? >> That is a photograph of the blink camera. um underneath the TV. >> Um and that states to a 5. >> 285. Yes. >> In most stages of 286. >> Uh uh 286 is after I removed the blank. camera just so you can get a better view. of it. >> And those sort of photos fairly and. accurately will reflect how camera. looked on the day you took those photos. >> It does. >> And again, where were they located? >> They were underneath the TV in what I. would call the living room.

>> And that states exit 285. And what is that? >> Uh, that is the blink camera tucked. underneath the TV. >> 286. >> And that's after I removed it in front. of the TV. Again, just for a better. clear view of what it was. >> And what did you do with it after you. collected it? >> I put it in an evidence bag and again uh. took it back to the police department. with the evidence.

States exhibit 271. Before we go back, can you please tell. the jury what that is? >> It is a Tip City PD uh evidence bag with. my handwriting on it. >> And is that the evidence bag that you. put the blink camera in? >> Yes. >> And has anyone else accessed that uh bag. since you put it in there? If you can tell from the back.

>> Uh, no. Just the escape to the property. manager. >> And the seals. So, the seals seals are. still intact. >> Yes. >> Please open it.

Uh, is that Can you hold it up and show. the jury, please? What is that? >> It is a blank camera. >> And is that camera in the same condition. as it was when you put it in the bag on. the day you collected it? >> It is. Just a little bit earlier.

Your honor, at this time the state would. ask the. exhibits be admitted into evidence that. states exhibits. 192, 2011 through 205, 264 and 265, 268,

236, boxes 1, 2, and 3, 271, and 285 and 286. Any. objection from the defense? >> Uh, we would object to 268. Foxes 1, two, and three. Your honor, >> 236. >> 268. >> I thought it was 268. >> 23. >> 236. >> I'm sorry. 236.

>> Okay. >> State have any response? >> Just what we discussed at Sidebar, your. honor. >> Okay. All right. The court will admit uh. states exhibit 192, 2011 through 205, 264, 265, 268. The court overrules the. defense objection to 236. Boxes 1. through three. Those will be amended. U. states exhibit 271, 285, and 286 would. also be admitted.

>> I have no further questions for this. >> Does defense have any uh cross? M. detector, when you arrived on the scene. on the 16th of February, 2026, uh is it correct statement that Mr. Flynn was still present there? >> He was.

>> Okay. And you indicated to us that you. assisted him in getting clothes. Correct. Correct. Okay. And did you um. ask him if he was wearing the same. clothes. um as he was earlier in the evening? >> I did not. >> Do you have um Well, separate than from. that, were you present on scene when he. was um uh removed from the scene?

>> I was. >> Okay. And were you involved in taking or. did you supervise uh in taking Caleb's. fingerprints at all? >> I did not. >> Okay. Were you present when that. occurred? >> No. >> Okay. Can you estimate. the time that you spent over the course.

of say the following week that you. worked on finding the gun in this case? My estimation would be several hours. over a couple weeks. I was close to. maybe tens of hours just searching the. house for anything. >> Sure. And there were a number of things. that were done and you mentioned some of. them in terms of finding the gut. Correct. >> Correct. One of them was to remove the.

um uh insulation in the attic. Correct. >> Correct. >> And the point of that was what? >> I'm not sure the exact point. I was just. instructed to assist in doing it. >> Okay. Was that so that you might be able. to find something in the attic? >> Possibly. >> Okay. And was in fact anything found in. the attic? >> Uh, I wasn't up there, but not to my. knowledge. >> Okay. And you indicated that you.

um were working with the street. maintenance department in order to look. in all the drains. >> Correct. >> On what streets did you do that? >> Uh, we did them on Cunningham, Manchester, um, St. Leonard. I believe it's I believe. it's Hungingbird is the one that's got. some construction houses um all the way. back to the park. >> Um do you have any idea how many drains. there are on all those streets? >> I don't know the exact number. No, sir.

>> Okay. Were you involved in searching all. of them? >> I was. >> Okay. How long did that take you? >> Probably two two and a half hours. >> Okay. And you used the street. maintenance department in order to do. that? We needed their they have a tool. that helps us get the drains off so we. can safely get in there so it doesn't. collapse uh while we're getting in. there. It just makes it a lot easier to. use their tools which are specially. designed to remove them. >> So, not only did you use the magnet,

but you physically went into those um uh. drain areas. Correct. >> The ones that I could. Yes. >> And you had artificial light, a. flashlight or some sort of a beacon in. order to see what was in there? I did. >> Okay. And you would consider that a. fairly thorough search, I take it? >> Yes. >> Okay. And there was nothing of any. evidentiary value found in any of the. sewers? >> No. >> What else were you personally involved. in in terms of finding the gun?

>> Uh, again, I called um several gun. stores in South Carolina um to try and. obtain the 4473. Um it it was originally. purchased at a gun store. Um what a 4473. is. >> So 4473 is the form that you fill out in. order to um start your initial uh NYX. background check through the FBI. Um so. it's a standard practice that anyone. anyone that has an FFL, if you buy a. firearm from them, you are supposed to.

fill this form out um to be sent to the. FBI before and clear before you're. allowed to possess the guns to make sure. you're not a prohibited possessor. >> Okay. And so how many places in South. Carolina did you call? >> I would say I probably called almost two. dozen throughout the course of the. callings. >> And how long did those callings take? Was that all in one day or was that over. a period of time? >> It was over a period of time. >> Okay. And that resulted in no.

information. Correct. >> Correct. >> Okay. and you specifically from those. people were looking for some indication. that Mr. Flynn had purchased a firearm. in that state. Correct. Okay. And in about what area of the state were. you looking in? >> I believe um we discovered he used his. Spartanberg address. So I kind of used. that area and branched out. >> Okay. And um as far as um the um casings.

that were found on the scene, did you. make any inquiry as to whether or not. those type of of bullets can be. purchased here in Ohio, in South. Carolina, or anywhere in the country? >> No. You indicated early on that one of your. um duties um as a uh a new detective was.

to um organize the various tips that. came in on a daily basis to the police. department. Correct. >> Correct. Tell me how that was set up. In. other words, did you put a flyer out? Did you did you have a specific tip. number? Um, explain how that um how that. was organized that you know. >> So, the way I did it was um the what I.

would do is run the calls for service. throughout the night. Um, as far as any. calls that related to this homicide, I. printed out the calls for service and. then I gave them to the designated FBI. um TFO or special agent that was. assigned and calling physically calling. those people. um they just don't have. access to our reporting system. So to. get the phone numbers I had to give it. them our copy of our report. >> So when you say you were looking at. running reports what does that mean in. English? >> So in English that means I would just uh.

look up the reports from the night. before. Um they they have a sequential. number. So I would just print out those. numbers uh for those calls and give them. to that uh FBI TFO or special engine. So, if I called city um dispatch and. said, "Hey, I have a tip on the Flynn. case." That would be our runner report. >> It depends where you fall. >> Okay. Where were you getting the calls. from? >> I was getting them from our reporting.

system uh called Stone. >> Okay. And as far as. the officers that um were involved in. initially taking these calls, were you. aware of those reports? >> Yes, I have access to the same reports. they do. So if they type something up, I. can read it. Did you in fact forward. officer Little's report on a supplement. dated 21626.

on a tip that was um called in twice by. Zachary Macintosh? >> If it was reported in Spilman, I. forwarded it. I didn't spend a lot of. time reading what was contained as that. duty been given to the FBI. >> Okay. And do you know if anyone was. actually reading your reports. >> as far as the one like the tip reports. or. >> Yeah, the reports when they were going. up the chain, do you know if anyone was. looking at them?

>> I have no idea. >> Okay. And are you aware as to whether or. not. the um call from Zachary Macintosh. indicating that there was actually a hit. on Caleb Flynn was investigated? >> I don't know. The FBI was again in. charge of following up on all those tips. and leads. >> Did you follow up the call that came. second from Mr. Macintosh indicating. that the perpetrator made a mistake?

here. >> sustained. >> It's not offered for the truth of the. matter asserted. I want to know was this. tip, not an anonymous tip, just a tip, was. investigated, but was being investigated at the time. If you know, I don't know. Again, I've had I would. print them off and I would give them to. the FBI. I don't know what was. investigated. They wrote their own. supplemental reports that I don't have. access to. don't have access to the.

FBI's reporting system. >> Okay. And who was actually reading these. reports? In other words, how would you. determine whether or not this was an. actual report of any value? >> Any tip that came in, again, I didn't. read through them. I gave them to the. FBI. So, I had no I didn't sort through. any. I assume every report that's. reported is of value uh because someone. took the time to call us and state it,

but I didn't review any of them. >> Okay. And would it be of any interest to. you as a um a relatively new detective. if a person called in indicating not. only what happened, but how the person. got in the house? >> Interest. >> Okay. And do you know whether or not. officer's little report was in fact. followed up on? >> I don't know if the FBI followed up on. them. >> Would it be of interest to the Chip City.

Police Department if in fact this person. who called in said that the intended. target. >> Objection? >> Hold on. >> Sustained. If a call came in indicating that there. was a um a perpetrator or that there was. a hit on somebody, that would be of. somewhat interest to the Tip City Police. Department. Correct. >> Yes.

>> Okay. And if the intended target of that. hit. was not in fact taken out, would that be. of interest to the Tip City Police. Department? >> Yes. >> Okay. Was that reported back to you in. the detective section that that's the. call that came in on February 16th? >> No. Like I said, we had different. duties. I was assigned to do other. things. The FBI was assigned to follow. up on the tips. If that information came.

back, it would have been reported to. someone above me who was in a more. managerial position. Was there anyone. besides you who was given a daily. assignment to in fact look at tips? >> The FBI was assigned to look at them. >> Well, I'm talking about identify them so. that the people up above the you on the. food chain would actually be able to see. them. It was your job to collect them. Correct. >> My job was to print them out.

>> Yeah. >> Organize them. >> Yes. Yeah, that's perfect. >> Okay. And present them to people who in. fact could review them. >> Yes. >> Okay.

Uh nothing further, judge. Thank you. React. Uh, nothing. Okay. >> Uh, Detective Bernard, you may step. down. >> Oh, yes. >> You're excused. Detective Bernard. Thank. you. >> Mr. Joseph, if you like to call your. next witness. >> Yes, your honor. State calls Detective. or Officer Luke Belman.

>> Luke Bellman or Belman. Luke Belman, your honor. Sorry. >> Officer Belman, if you'd like to come up. to the witness stand, please raise your right hand. Mission. will swear you.

as well. Thank you. Mr. Joseph, you may inquire with this. witness. >> Thank you, honor. Sir, can you please. state your name and spell your first and. last name for the record? >> Yes. Officer Luke Veldman. L U K E V E L. L D M A N. >> And where are you currently employed? >> Uh Tip City Police Department, sir. >> In what capacity? >> Uh I'm currently assigned to the patrol. division. >> And how long have you been with the Tip. City Police Department? >> Altogether? Seven years. Just a little. bit over. >> Patrol the whole time? >> Uh no sir. Uh, I was assigned to the.

investigation section as a general. assignment detective from January, I'm. sorry, from November of 2024 through. January 26. >> And, um, is there a reason that you are. a patrolman now? >> Yes, sir. Uh, that was a brand new uh, assignment that they started. I was the. first person to get to do it. It was a. year rotation in the detective section. >> So, just rotation. >> Yep. As soon as you do your year, you're. kind of out. The next guy goes in just. to get some of us younger guys a chance. to get in there, get some experience. And were you involved at all in the.

investigation. um at 9:32 Cunningham Court? >> Yes, sir. >> And what was your involvement? >> Uh I would say the the day of the. incident I was uh on patrol and came and. helped with scene security for that day. Uh from that day forward uh I was. assigned to uh preparing search. warrants, affidavit, and uh assisting. with subpoena preparation. >> Approximately how many uh search. warrants and affidavit did you uh. prepare? uh over 30 search warrants and. over I think I'll say eight subpoenas I.

assisted with. >> And was one of those a search warrant. for uh a Venmo account for Aaliyah. Botner? >> Yes, sir. >> And you drafted that search warrant? >> I did. >> And what did you do with it after you. drafted it? >> Uh it was submitted through a portal to. Venmo. Uh actually PayPal then Venmo. does business as. >> I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? >> Yeah, it was submitted through a portal. what's called the safety hub for them. specifically. Uh so once it was signed. by a judge, it was submitted to PayPal,

which is who Venmo uh is served through. >> Okay. So PayPal owns Venmo. >> Yeah, I guess you could say that. >> And once uh. did you submit that the search board to. a judge? >> Yes. >> Okay. And it was approved? >> Yes. Approved and signed? Yes, sir. >> And then you submitted to the hub. And. did you receive a response from PayPal? >> I did. And what was that response? >> Uh that response came uh through a. password secured um file uh that came.

with a certified letter as well as the. actual data return. >> And. you said a certified letter. >> Yes, sir. >> In the data. >> And did you review that data? >> Um I briefly reviewed it to make sure. that it's what I asked for, but I did. not analyze that data. >> Did you find that it was what you asked. for? >> Yes, sir. You're on may approach. >> You may.

>> Thanks. Exhibit 196. Thank you. So please look at that. That's all the. pages.

I have to tell the jury what that is. >> Yes, this is a copy, a redacted copy of.

a search warrant affidavit for Venmo. account. And is that search warrant a fair. accurate correct representation of the. one that was approved by the judge and. sent to PayPal? >> Yes, sir. >> And you said you received an affidavit. in response. >> Certification affidate. Yes, sir. >> Is it about 197?

Thank you. >> That. is that the affidavit for business. record certification you received along. with the data from Venmo as a result of. your search warrants? >> Yes, sir. That I received from PayPal.

>> From PayPal. Yes, sir. >> Doing business at Venmo is their. terminology. Can you please read that. for the jury? >> Yes, sir. Uh, this is affidavit for. business record certification. I, Rebecca Peabody, certify and declare as. follows for SCM case number-gi. 011250. 461-P. SH_551357.

Bullet point one. I am over the age of. 18 years. Bullet point two. The business. address for PayPal is 2211 North First. Street, San Jose, California 9513. Bullet point three, I am a custodian of. records for PayPal. Four, based on my. knowledge of PayPal's business records, practices, and procedures, I further. certify that subsection A, the enclosed. records are a true and correct copy of. the original records kept by PayPal in. the ordinary course of business. B. Such.

records were made at or near the time of. the occurrence of the matters set forth. by or from information transmitted by a. person with knowledge of those matters. C. It is the regular practice of PayPal. to make sure a record of transactions in. the ordinary course of business. D. The. records for this case are gathered and. stored in the routine course of business. and were retrieved from PayPal's. databases according to our standard. business practices. E. I reviewed the. records to ensure that they conform to. the information as stored in the.

databases. The records for SCM case. number-gi_0112500461-. PPP_SH_551357. contain the following data. Bullet point. transaction log bullet point profile. bullet transaction comments bullet. activity log bullet financials.

and the second page here is Venmo is a. service of PayPal Inc. a licensed. provider of money transfer services all. money transmission is provided by PayPal. Inc. Pursuant to PayPal Inc.'s licenses, the following Venmo accounts are. included in these case records. 73149182. affidavit for business record. certification SCM case. number-gi_011200461-P_SH_551357.

continued. I declare under penalty of. perjury that the foregoing is true and. correct dated 0302 2026 by Rebecca. Peabody and then signed by Rebecca. Peabody. >> Sign electronically. >> Electronically, yes. >> And does the data referenced in that is. the data that uh sorry does the data. reference in that certification the data. that you received were you able to. confirm that? >> Yes, sir. >> And how did you confirm that?

>> Uh they use that case number on all of. that to confirm that and attach it to. each other. Your honor, I'm showing off injuries. 98. It's a flash drive within the. that. officer just referenced. >> Sir, can you please tell the jury what. that is? >> Uh, this is states exhibit 198 initial.

and signed with my badge number. And why. did you initial and sign your batch. number? >> Uh to show that I did review this and. this is the a copy of the information. that I obtained from you. >> And that copy is fair, accurate, and. correct representation of the data that. you received from PayPal. >> Yes, sir.

May I approach? >> You may. >> Is this epidemic a fair accurate correct. representation of the affidav received. along with the data? >> Yes, sir. >> Sure. So, you said how many search warrants. did you do?

>> Uh, over 30. I believe the number was 34. sir. >> And was one of them also to Amazon for a. blink camera? >> It was. >> And did you draft the search warrant for. that? >> I did. >> And what was the subscriber information. you used to draft that? Uh that was. I believe it was uh the defendant. I. can't remember if we used his email. address or if it was registered to the. address there. >> And what did you do with the search. warrant after you dropped it? >> I submitted it to a judge where it was.

signed. >> And what did you after it was signed? >> Uh I forwarded it on to FBI agent Kinzig. for her to submit. The reason for that is because at Pip. City Police Department, we use a net. email. Uh some of the service providers. do not recognize that or will not accept. through a portal or emails a net email. Uh they prefer like a.gov. >> So your only involvement in uh obtaining. information from Amazon for the Blink. camera was dropping the search warrant. >> Yes, sir. Your may approach. Amen.

>> 199. >> Thank you.

Is that the search for that you drafted? And and for Amazon for the Blink camera. >> Yes, it is. >> And what was the the subscriber. information used on there? >> Uh it was uh the defendant's name uh as.

well as a serial number associated with. it. Would you like me to read that? >> No, that's all right. >> Okay. >> Um is that search warrant other than the. redacted portions of fair, accurate, and. correct representation of the search. warrant that was signed by the judge and. then you then did you get it handed over. to the FBI for them to submit? >> Yes, sir.

Did you also draft a search form for. Google information for Caleb. cllin@gmail.com? >> Yes, sir. >> And what did you do after you drafted. it? >> Uh, same thing with the last one. I. fored on to FBI agent Kinsey. What did. you do before that? >> Prior to that, I had it sent to a judge. Sorry. Through our portal and it was. signed. >> And why again? Why'd you send it to FBI. agent Kinse? >> Once again, thenet email was not. allowing me to submit it myself.

>> My virtual. exhibit 200. Thank you. So everything.

Can you tell the jury what that is, please? >> Uh, this is a redacted copy of the. search warrant that I prepared for the.

Gmail account, Caleb C. Flint. atgmail.com. >> And other than the redacted portions, is. that search warrant affair out here? correct representation of the search. warrant that was signed by the judge and. that you've submitted you hand it over. to the FBI in order to be submitted. >> Yes, it is. second. >> Your honor, at this time I would ask. exhibit 196 through 200 be admitted.

evidence. >> Any objection? >> Uh objection approves. Okay. The court. overrules that objection and will admit. states exhibit uh 196 through 200. >> No further questions, your honor. >> Thank you. Any cross of this witness? >> Officer Bman, you said you prepared how.

many? >> It was over over 30. >> Okay. And uh can you tell us what they. were for? >> Uh various internet service providers uh. electronic devices. >> and who did they belong to? >> Uh they belong to a number of people. Would you like me to list? Okay. Uh the. defendant uh the victim uh Aaliyah Bner. as mentioned before um. maybe some others that I'm forgetting.

>> Okay. Um, and for you said for several. devices, were there social medias for. Aaliyah Botner as well? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Do you remember which ones? >> Um, I know Instagram, uh, Facebook, uh, we mentioned the Venmo if you want. to consider that social media. >> Okay. >> And do you remember how many devices. that you were given to prepare search. warrants for for Aaliyah Botner? >> Devices specifically for her? Uh, I did. not do any devices that I remember for. her.

>> Okay. How about phones? >> Uh, no ma'am, I did not do the cell. phone uh search war ones. I did mostly. the internet service providers and. social media. >> Were you involved in preparing the. search warrants or serving the search. war ones for any of Aaliyah Butner's. phones? >> I did some some of the serving for. Detective Sergeant Morgan. >> How many did you do? >> Um, I believe it was three for Aaliyah. Bner. >> So, three cell phones for Aaliyah Botner. that you served. >> Yes. >> I have no other questions here. May you redirect?

>> No, your honor. >> Um, officer Belman may step down. >> Do you release confirm your subpoena? >> Yes, sir. >> All right. You're excused. >> What's that? >> You may have. at this time. It's 4:15. Does the state. have a quick witness or. no?

All right. At this time, uh, the court. will, um, end the third day of session. Um, we'll. reconvene tomorrow at 8:30 for further. testimony in the state's case. Ladies. and gentlemen, the jury, please do not. discuss this case amongst yourselves. Please do not allow anybody to discuss. it in your presence. It is your duty not. to form or express any opinion until. this case is finally submitted to all of. you. Please do not discuss or converse. with any of the attorneys, the parties.

or the witnesses. Likewise, they cannot. converse with you. If any of these. incidents should occur, please uh let. the court know either through available. to me particularly. Uh do not do any. independent investigation. It's your. sworn duty to uh decide this case based. upon the evidence in this courtroom. We will reconvene if you all could be. here by 8:00 a.m. We will start at 8:30.

Um I'm going to address this with. council if there's anything. All. right, council. Before we go off the. record and end the session, is there.

anything you want to bring to my. attention? >> Yes. Um, it states exhibit number 200, your. honor. Appears to be a search warrant to Google. and maybe others. Um, also states. exhibit number 199, which is a search. warrant uh directed towards Amazon. They. um appeared to be um signed by this. court and I am going to ask for a an.

instruction. um sometime. and also it's on 196. um I'm going to ask for an instruction. to the jury that that's not an. indication of how the court feels about. this case and I don't know if a further. explanation is required uh which might. be in depth this um the standard for a u. search warrant is very different than.

the standard for a trial. So I will ask for that. I don't ask I. don't need it now. Um but I think in the. future I think that would be u and I. think we have a number of days maybe. where we can figure that out. But I just. want to let the court know that that's. one of the things I was thinking about. >> Um Mr. Mulligan if you want to make some. proposed uh wording for that instruction. and the court will consider it and I. will hear from the state um when it's. finally submitted that uh if there any.

objections. >> Thank you. >> We'll reconvene tomorrow. We're off the. record.