Melissa Etheridge | Dumb Blonde Podcast

Bunny XO. Bunny XO. Bunny XO. >> [music]. >> Is this thing on? What's up, babies? Today, we have a rock and roll angel in.

the house. And I am so honored to have. Ms. Melissa Etheridge in the house, baby. Yay. How are you doing? >> I am fantastic. Dude, I never thought. this is like a dream come true. I just. have to tell you I don't think you. realize how many nights I took my. clothes off to your music. I'm telling you, man. Yes. When I was in the strip club, you were. my jam on the stage, baby. >> My crew used to go they. >> [laughter]. >> we do a show if we had you know a night. off.

they would go to the strip clubs and it. would bum them out so much every time my. songs came on they'd be like No. >> boss is watching us. [laughter] No, I. love that. We just went to a strip club. literally 2 weeks ago and we went to go. see male weenie boys, that's what we. call them. Yeah. Some guy comes out to a. Jelly Roll song. I was like, "Son of a. bitch.". >> [laughter]. >> Totally kills everything, you know. >> "My lady boner is gone." Lady boner is. gone, dude. No, but for real like my I. cuz I stripped in the early 2000s. So, I.

mean that's you were on fire and I've. had fun in some strip clubs hearing my. songs. I bet. Oh my gosh, I could only. imagine the type of attention you got. I have there's so much I want to talk to. you about and I it's like I don't even. know where to start. So, let's kind of. start with your childhood. I know that. you wrote a book um. you know regarding it like an. autobiography regarding your childhood. and growing up and stuff like that. But. um for the the listeners at home who.

haven't gotten to read that book yet. Let's kind of deep dive a little bit. into where you came from and what made. you who you are. Oh. Okay. I feel like everybody's childhood. kind of Oh, yeah. puts them on a. trajectory of where they're going to go. in life. >> Absolutely. That's that and that's where. you get like acceptance and and. appreciation no matter what happened in. your childhood that it really made who. you are today. And that's uh myself I. grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in. Kansas. I grew up in Leavenworth, Kansas.

which uh. was a. larger town in Leavenworth but a very. small town anywhere in the in the world. And um it had a prison there and that's. what we're kind of famous for. It. actually had five prisons there. S- um. I. always loved music. I don't remember not. ever loving music. My sister was older. than me. She played records. My parents. played a lot of records. I had the I. grew up in the '60s and '70s so I had. the great radio and the great rock and.

roll. And I and we had a station in. Kansas City. It was uh we could hear it. in Leavenworth that used to play. everything. It would play country music. I could hear Tammy Wynette then I could. hear Marvin Gaye then I could hear Led. Zeppelin then I could hear some pop song. and it it it was truly top 40 radio from. everywhere. So, I just had all this. influx of great music. Loved it. My father brought a guitar home when I. was. 12 no, I was eight. My sister was 12. He brought it home for.

her. And I was like, "But you know, I love. the Archies. I used to pretend I was. Reggie and you know and and um. and he they finally let me play even. though they said I was too young and my. fingers would bleed and they did bleed. but I kept playing at eight years old. and then when I was 11 I went to a. talent show in the plaza sang actually a. song that I had written a very folksy. kind of song. Did you always write music. like start was that. >> Just from the start you picked up your.

guitar and started writing music? [clears throat]. I understood it to me the. from the music I'd heard from the Bob. Dylans to the Paul Simons to to. Joni Mitchells these artists that I was. getting in my childhood. that. if you wanted to reach people with your. your music you became the whole thing. You wrote songs about your life. That's. just how I understood it. I feel like. that's a real musician though, you know, like the people that you grew up on that.

I grew up on also they were real. musicians. Like they poured their heart. out through their pens. Yeah, that's. that's how I understood it. And when I. was hearing a song. I was like, "Yes, that's that's where I. wanted to go." And so I always started. writing and my first songs were very. childish and very you know copying what. I had heard and you know what was out. there. But. I loved it and. through this. uh talent show I was in a variety show.

and it um we performed in prisons and. old folks homes and stuff like that. But. through that I got with a band. There. was just a country band in town called. the Chuck Hammersmith and the Wranglers, you know, and I sang Tammy Wynette. songs. How old were you? >> 12. >> Oh my goodness. >> 12, 13. And then from 12 to 17 I played. in real bands. I went from that to a. band in Kansas City where I fronted it. with like. four guys.

They taught me how to play the organ, the keyboards. They taught me how to. play drums. >> Wow. Just cuz I was just you know, "Hey, how do you do that?" And I I was that. age, you know, I was 14, 15, 16. And I. sang all you know, the pop songs and and. I made money every weekend. I I had my. first car that I bought at 14. That's. insane. I mean I wasn't wealthy but I. you know, I was I had my own money as a. child. >> had that drive to just. >> Oh, I loved it. >> Where do you think that drive came from. because I have heard you be very vocal.

about your relationship with your. mother. Can we dive into that a little. bit? Where did dad stand in that. situation and then also we have some. uncomfortable stuff with the sister, too. >> Oh, yeah. So. Sorry. [laughter]. Please let everyone know that's the dog. Okay. I. I I. I grew up in the Midwest in the '60s and. '70s and I was a child in the '60s. >> Right. And. it's it's so hard to explain now what it. was like back then and especially in the.

Midwest. My my parents they grew up in. my father grew up in poverty. He grew up. as a migrant farmer. His father was an. alcoholic and you know, he he pictures. of him as a child with you know, it looks like the dirt you know, the. Dust Bowl. That was my father's life. And he uh. had someone help him in his high school. he was very athletic. And so they got. him a scholarship to a college and that. was the only reason he got out of that. And he became a teacher and a high.

school coach. Aw. Yeah, and he was. a. he was that guy. He was supremely nice. He cared about people. He was fun. He. taught me how to you know, hit ball and. run around and and um my mother. she grew grew up in uh well, her father. was an insurance salesman kind of guy. So, she she wasn't. poverty but she was lower income trying. to be more and she went to college cuz. that's where you find husbands. No. Met.

my father in the old days. >> where you find husbands. >> Exactly back in you know, the '50s. that's what you did. But she was. extremely. intelligent and you know, loved books, loved. was sort of trapped in in this this life. and at uh. she she didn't know how to raise. children. But when I was three she got a job as a. secretary and in the '60s quickly. became like remember the movie Hidden.

Figures the the women that No, it they. uh. it's these women that actually did all. the work in early computing. Oh, wow. >> And how and they would run the. computers. And she did it for the army. There was. an army base right there in Leavenworth. and then the generals would take all the. credit and pay her half what anybody. else's pay. It was just and she she. became very bitter. That's amazing. I'm. so sorry. >> She No, she became very bitter. She she. would drink at night. She became bitter. >> Yeah, just just for.

>> because her intelligence that she was. trying to get out there she would work. for the the army in war games and. scenarios. >> And they would kind of probably put her. down and. >> And yes, and they would take Yeah, I. mean they Yeah, just back then women. didn't work and they weren't the smart. ones so the men had to take all the. credit. I also feel that people who have. higher intellect like that for some. reason they always try to mask in other. ways. Like it's almost like their. intelligence is just too much for them. to carry. Yeah.

>> sister is like that. And they don't have. any fun in life. And she [clears throat]. just didn't. Yeah. >> And um you know, now as a as a grown-up. and a mother myself I'm like, "Oh, she. did the best she could." And you know, but at the time you as a child you take. it personally. You think "Oh, she. doesn't love me because I'm not. lovable.". >> You internalize that. >> Yeah, and so I internalized that as did. my older sister. And she did it in a different way. She. lashed out. She was the bad child. She. was. and just was always in trouble and angry.

at the world and did. take it out on me and took it out in in. different ways uh. uh physically, sexually just all for a. couple years when I was looking for you. know, like acceptance and love of some kind. and. you know. >> Were those things happening to her? This I don't know. You know, I asked her. once. I did after I grew up. I said um. you know, is this something that. happened to you? And she said that.

she did. She said when she was 5 years. old. that the boy crossed the street. But she said, "But I don't think of it. as abuse because I liked it.". And I think she took that on for the. rest of her life sort of and became. very, you know, powerful. in a in a weird way, you know, because. it was kind of like she turned her pain. into something, you know, that helped. her deal with it. Very different lives.

and. and she's How do you How is your. relationship with your sister now? Because going through physical and. sexual abuse with a, you know, a sister? It's like how is that bond? Were you. guys able to be able to look past that. or has it always just been No, I was. I enabled for a while. I mean, I love my. family and. and that. you might know I. when you make a lot of money all of a. sudden. it becomes very weird with your family.

And I just I just telling you because. you want [laughter] to make people happy. and back then it's [clears throat] gone. with the wind. I thought oh, well, if I provide this. then they'll. they'll do this and and they never do. It doesn't It just doesn't You can't do. it for anyone else. It It takes away. their desire anyway. But. my sister tried that and and I had to. cut everything off. And I did and. nowadays I think I saw I hadn't seen her.

like 17 years and I saw her I I. her daughter and I are very close. I I. helped her daughter out and um. and. I'll just see her and. hey she's just a cranky old lady now. [laughter] as far as I know, you know. Very different lives and. that's exactly what happened. It's crazy. No, I get it. I have two. sisters that I don't communicate with. I. actually just started taking care of my. older sister again. Just paid for like. surgery for her. She's done me so wrong.

and it's like I'm just waiting for the. shoe to drop. Like you're being sweet. now but I can only imagine what you're. going to try to sell to the tabloids. next, you know. It's wild that we even have to to deal. with stuff like that. Moving on from. that situation, you started playing in. bars when you were 12 years old. What in the hell? Like I know it was a. different era back then. I feel like the. era of like the I wasn't around in the. 70s but the 80s, the 90s and even the. 2000s was such a.

cool time. Like right? Compared to now I feel like. everybody's offended about everything. Like you can't [ __ ] say anything. Like I just feel like back then was just. like such a more relaxed era I guess you. could say. It was more magical. It almost felt. like, you know. There was a lot of. magic. Yes, I sometimes I look back at in my wife. will laugh. and when I say well, you know, I was. playing a prison and and I showed her a. picture of. the the whole act that went into in in.

there with me. It was you know, I sang. but we had dancers and and you know, comedians and and and. you know, acrobat people, you know. And they were. all in completely inappropriate outfits. in the 60s, right? Going into a prison, right? So that was that. Now the bars, my father would go with me every single. time. Every I was never without my. father. So dad was like a constant. figure in your life. He didn't drink. He didn't drink. He would go. He would.

sit there with a Coke and just and he. would listen and then he would help me. carry my equipment out and he was. I. I think he liked it because we we would. go every Friday and Saturday night every. weekend and I think the marriage was. maybe a little because she was having, you know, a hard time and it was a very. peaceful time for him and I. We would. really enjoy each other's company and. just. and he would go sit and listen and he he. he wasn't one that like critiqued me.

and he didn't also wow, you're really. good or anything like that. He just he. do he just. he didn't know it was something that. made you happy. Absolutely. That's amazing. That's really cool. With that situation that was going on. with your mom too just circling back to. that. How did you not internalize your. mom's anger and pain? Like how did you. avoid that? Do you think your. relationship with your father helped you. to not internalize it? Cuz I know how it is to be around people.

with depression and sometimes it's very. easy to soak up their energy too. Well, I got out of there as fast as I could, you know, when I was 18. Like I. graduated high school and I went to. college for a minute. Berkeley for a. minute. Not just anybody can get into. Berkeley College by the way. Well, it's true. That's true back then but I. didn't go for very long. I only went for. a few months cuz I wanted to sing and. play and I'd already been playing and. making music so I just found a. restaurant that had a lounge in it that.

I could go play and I could make money. and work on my dream. I really was not a. kind of girl that would sit there. I was not a studious musician, no. No. I feel like musicians you have to be. creative. You can't just be put Is there. are some who can do that but the. majority you're creative. You can't be. like stifled by a classroom. No, it was. crazy. The minute they would tell me you. have to do the this note has to come. after that. I'm like it does not. It's. music. What are you saying that has. [laughter] to do this? But that was a it. was more of a jazz based thing and.

that's a whole different mindset. But. even to get accepted into Berkeley like. that's a huge feat. That just goes to. show what kind of musician you are. though because like I think they said. that it's like a 54% acceptance rate to. even get into there now. Wow, that's amazing. That's great. Back. then it wasn't like that. It was brand. new but. but you know, it's it's all good and it. is a very good school and they've. I actually got an honorary doctorate. from them so. really pisses the rest of my family off. but. >> [laughter]. >> but.

there you go. There you go. I've never heard that. >> [laughter]. >> It was a meme and I was like I relate so. I just stole it. How did you define your sound because. you have such a raspy just bluesy just. your voice is just so amazing. Well, I. sang from the from the time I was 13. Did you have that bluesiness and that. rasp even at 13?

Well, I. >> [snorts]. >> I played in country bands first even. though I didn't that wasn't my first. choice of music. I listened a lot lot to. it. I you know, your classic stuff. But I would sing all those songs and. they're all very throaty, very full, you know, the Tammy Wynette and even. Linda Ronstadt that sort of sing like. that and I'd listen to Gladys Knight. I'd listen to Aretha and I'm like you. got to sing from from here.

and. I guess I've always sort of had this. voice because I do remember the choir. teacher. I also went to. I'd go play in the bars and then I'd go. to church on Sunday. That's what we do, right? And there you go. >> [laughter]. >> And but I would sing in the choir and. she used to put me in the very back cuz. she'd say I had the weirdest voice, you know. So so it's kind of it's a good. thing though. It's good. I'm I'm very. grateful for my voice but I think it's. when she saw you winning Grammys. Oh, there's been a few of those. There's.

been a whole I've got many of those. I'm. good there. But it's it's just something. that has developed and I've worked on it. and it's it's sort of a. It sounds like I drink a lot of whiskey. and smoke a bunch of you know, I love. it. I write like that. I've written. songs and I'm smoking cigarettes and. drinking whiskey but I don't. I never. did. I tend to think that children go. where it's warm, you know, and and that. was warm and I. one because I saw my mom. and I saw my father who didn't drink and.

I said I want to be like dad. I just. that's. I I tend to think that children go where. it's warm, you know, and and that was. warm and. and and I'd play at 13, 14, 15 and I'd. see these people get drunk and I'm like. well, that's stupid, you know. It held nothing attractive. I'd see. people get all sloppy and stuff at the. end of the night and fights. Oh my god, I you know, beer bottles thrown and. hiding behind the organs so the chairs. don't get you. So yeah, I you know, I've. saw a lot. I can only imagine at such a young age.

and the bars back then were just crazy. They were not very politically correct. There's nothing like that about there. But again, I always felt safe. My father. was there every single night. I lost dad at 30. It was really really. difficult. Yeah, it's brutal. But they're always. here. He's been there 30 years. He's. been there. I've never seen more butterflies. I'm. like Bill, I get the damn point. >> [laughter].

>> So moving on from Berkeley, how old are you then when you start like. venturing out and you you got your first. record deal when? Cuz I know you dropped. your first album in 1988. When was the. space in between there that you got. signed? So I I finally. I went back to Kansas after Boston. Made enough money, played at a. restaurant. Granada Royale Hometel. Played.

[laughter] in the lounge. Made enough money buy a car. Got a car, drove to Los Angeles in 1982. So I was 21 years old. And LA in the 80s was magnificent. Tell me about it. It was magnificent. Cuz I got to grow up with the Hollywood. too in the 80s and the 90s and it was. like so, you know, as a child seeing. that It was a. a. drama queen's. heaven. It was theater. It was we're.

going to wear our hair so weird. We're. going to try to do the everything weird. and against until it became the style. You know, until everyone's doing it, you. know, I remember. that's why they got the nickname. Hollyweird. Yes, you know, we we we. would shave the side of our heads and. you know, cuz I went in with the lesbian. crowd in the gay crowd that. deep, you know, and we're just we're. just the weirdest ones ever, you know, we're we were the first ones to go to. the Salvation Army's and get the vintage.

clothing and stuff like that, you know, no that was back when you could walk in. and find amazing things that you think. why would someone throw this away? So we. we were living that in and I loved it. and I got really deeply into the the. whole lesbian world because I ended up. playing lesbian bars. So you play like the gay circuit. there wasn't even a gay circuit back. then because I know in Vegas they had. one there was like a whole little. circuit that you could go and just they. called it the fruit loop, but it was.

like in a we they said it in the in most. endearing way, you know, so I didn't. know if Hollywood had one of those two. >> [laughter]. >> But we had a lot of fruits and nuts. But. no, these were just like the the bars. that one was in Long Beach. I love Long. Beach. Yeah, and it it just opened. But I ended up I ended up playing. a place in Pasadena and Long Beach. and. hardly ever in LA because there wasn't a.

lot a live music scene, but I I had. created these there. they weren't looking for work. I. actually was there on a date and went. and saw a piano in the corner and said. hey, do you have music? They said no, that came with the steakhouse that used. to be here, but you want to you know, play it night. So they let me. I created these jobs because there was. nobody making money in Hollywood. Everyone was playing for free. And so I played for. four years. in these bars and I thought how am I.

ever going to be signed in a lesbian. bar? No one's ever going to see me, but. slowly. the wife who who was a soccer coach. the girls brought her in you got to hear. this girl and then the wife tells the. husband who's a manager of music manager. manage bread and whatever. He comes. down. He's like well, and this is 1983. and he sticks with me for well, we ended. up working together for 30 years, but he. said look, I don't know what's. happening, but I believe you have a. great talent. I think you can do this. and he's he even said he goes stay in.

the lesbian bars. I will bring the. people to you. You're making money, right? You're making a living. You can. pay your rent and every single record. company over those four years came out. to see me. And they would they would go like Warner. Brothers brought out all the tables and. they'd be I don't know whether it was. because they were surrounded by lesbians. or what it was, [laughter] but they. would always you know, they'd say we. don't hear a hit and they never knew and. it wasn't until 1980.

six. 1986 I'm playing in Long Beach. and a producer guy who would tried to. get me a deal with A&M knew Chris. Blackwell. Chris Blackwell owned Island. Records. He he discovered Bob Marley. He. brought Bob Marley to the world. He was. from Jamaica. He was this eccentric rich. you know, son of the Blackwell soups or. something and. Jamaican and and he brought U2 Robert. Palmer. He was just a great music guy.

and he walked into the bar, heard four songs. and said I don't know why you're not. signed and signed me right there. Just. boom. Just like literally on a napkin, you know, you literally paved your own. way. Like you did it your way and you. brought your your energy was so pure and. so magnetic that you brought all of. these straight people into lesbian bars. [laughter] to come and see you. That's. amazing. It's fun cuz I've run into some of the. people that came out and you know, said.

no and they were like well, well, we. made a mistake. Really nice to see these old white. haired guys saying. well, we made a mistake. When did you know that you were lesbian? Like that you just were not into men or. was it something. when you grow up. when you're gay and you're a kid, you know, you have crushes on your. kindergarten teacher, but you know, who. doesn't as a kid? I think sexuality is a. you know, Miss Lanuti had a great ass. Come on. I still remember her name.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah. Mine was Mrs. Rice. Anyway, so. you know, and you [laughter]. as a child, but then when the hormone. stuff starts kicking in and my friends. are you know, looking at Bobby and Jimmy. and I'm looking at my friends and going. you know, and it's. I see it today where kids know that. there's more. and and they are just natural in. themselves. and I God if if I'd have had that as a.

child, but as a child, you're like okay, this is the way everyone's going, but I'm looking this way. Well, that's okay, you know, and you just kind. of go along and it it I would get. crushes on girls and it would. you know, you just want to stand next to. them. It's sure it's what guys go. through, you know, it's just like I just. I don't know what to do. I don't think. of it as I'm gay. I just and it wasn't. until I was. 16, you know, with that best friend and.

and that sleepover and. yep. There you go. I had one of those. two. >> [laughter]. >> Our daughter actually she you know, they. have so many terminologies now and I. don't want to get into that, but she. actually is leans more towards being a. lesbian also and we are so I'm like. please please do. Like I am so accepting. of it. Engagement party night marrying a. lovely woman. We couldn't be happier. See, I want Bailey to do that. Yeah, that's our Bailey. That's that's our. daughter's name is Bailey. Yeah.

I did know that. If you just let it go. just let it because you know, they get. their heart broke. they get their heart broke. either way, you know, they're going to. have relationships and and you just hold. their hands through it and and then they. find man, but you know, when they find. that one they just being they just light. up. It just yeah, it just works. Yeah, I. hope that happens for our Bailey too. So moving forward you get signed by. Island was it Island Records? Yes, you. get signed by Island Records. Take me on. that journey. Like so you got signed in.

86 you said? 86. Okay. And. then Chris Blackwell Blackwell goes back. into the universe of music and I don't. see him and I'm like okay, I'm supposed. to make a record. I've never made a. record, [laughter] you know, you're like. well, okay, thanks for signing me. What. do I do now? What do I do now? How were. record deals back then cuz I know. they're so different now. Like what did. they like offer you? Am I allowed to ask. that? Yeah, let me see if I can remember. the first one. I'm fascinated with the. inner workings of how that is cuz I mean. you've seen the music industry change so.

much. I sold 25 million albums and Island. Records still say I owe them money. Yeah. Wow. That's how bad the record. company. But they've forgiven it at this. point. It's like oh, stop it. The record deals back then were crazy. No, it's you you didn't even your. lawyers would just go, you know, because. they didn't have to sign you. They did. there was so much music. They weren't. like they were doing you a favor and you. knew that. You knew that you had to get. through this door or you would it there.

was and you're pretty much signing not I. don't want to say signing your life. away, but you're signing your the rights. to yourself just so that you can do for. a while so that company will blow you up. and take all the money from it, but you. will get the fame and that's. I kind of realized that and I had a good. manager who told me who said look, you. you know, it's not about your records. Don't even think about that because that. really doesn't exist. It's about your. publishing because you write then I can. make the money from the publishing.

That's. when you see an artist. who doesn't write their own stuff. who who is who doesn't really like to. perform. They're not going they're not going to. be around for a while because performing. is your bread and butter and that I. started. you know, I'd already been playing these. bars and clubs. Then I made a record and I went out and. played more bars and clubs. and then it just grew from there and I. wouldn't I would not trade that for the. world. For the first my first album came.

out in 1988 and I played everywhere. I. played Europe and Australia and all. these places cuz the the first album did. well. So you traveled everywhere after. you dropped your album. I'm going to. look at my notes real quick because. there was something really cool that I. realized with these albums that you. dropped. So you dropped, you know, May. 2nd, 1988 you dropped. your first album and then you had a hit. bring me some water that was nominated. for a Grammy, but then you go on to drop. two more albums. Another album gets.

nominated for Grammy's, right? And then. you win a Grammy Award. That's insane. and your first three albums that you you. get a Grammy Award. Like that's insane. That really surprised me cuz it wasn't I. didn't even get a lot of people think I. won for best new artist, but I didn't. get that. I wasn't even nominated for. that. It was back when they had a. category called best female rock vocal. They don't have that anymore. They. should though. But.

first I. yeah, I was nominated I was nominated. each. I've been nominated 17 times. I won two. >> [laughter]. >> No, but it's crazy. It's. it was great because my career really. went from here to huge. I went from. selling 60,000 albums to like almost a. million after. after the the Grammys and cuz the. Grammys had that large of a reach and it. was because. not because I was nominated but because.

I performed. And it was a very special year. This was. 1989. and Tracy Chapman performed, Sinead. O'Connor performed. >> I performed. We My manager actually. strong-armed the the producers into. letting They they wanted to mash all our. songs up and he said, "Are you kidding? This is such a strong year for women. You've got to let them have their. thing." And they they let us each sing. our songs by ourselves and it was really. powerful Grammys. That's amazing. >> win, but I performed. >> It's all right. You were there, baby.

You had your foot in the door. We. actually just got to see Tracy Chapman. at the Grammys perform with Luke Combs. and I was like I was That was the the. highlight of my night was to get to see. her perform cuz you know, it's such a. rarity these days. And oh, just so good. I was just like I was so thankful to be. there in that moment cuz it was just. really magical. I loved it. Um so take. me on your first tour. Like what. I remember whenever I hopped on tour. with Jay in 2016, you know, it was he.

wasn't signed or anything like that and. we would work our asses off. I'm talking. like we would go to like every little. bar. There would be people with there. would be 20 people in a bar and he would. perform like it was, you know, his. [ __ ]. it was like an arena full of people. What was your first tour like because. you said you got to go everywhere and. like got to go out of the country and. stuff like that. Was it wild? It was. wild because it was all different. In. America I was getting played on rock and. roll. So I was doing the rock and roll.

circuit. I was playing the the bars and. clubs. It was. you know, 200 to 500 people. If I had. 500, that was a lot. Remember in in. Colorado in Boulder, Colorado, they had. a great They had a great uh radio. station there called um. KBCO. Yeah. And uh. so they were playing my songs a lot. So. this was my biggest crowd was 500. people. And that then.

I started opening for Bruce Hornsby and. that's a great thing for a brand new. artist to get on a larger. thing so I could, you know, open for. them and so all of a sudden I was. playing to, you know, well, they were half-empty halls, you. know, when I started. But I I could play. those last couple numbers and people. would be, you know, there'd be 3,000. people in the. So I'd learn that. Then I'd go over to. Europe where my song was doing well and. I'd play a thousand seat rock.

Have you gone to Europe? >> Not yet. We're going. Wait Europe is so. much fun cuz they all stand. It's all. general admission. And and they all clap. on time. It's not the You know, America's where. all like. Yeah. You know, one, two. Man, these. they're. and they clap all four and it's and they. all jump up and down and it is so much. fun. They love the music. They love rock. and roll. I love that. Yeah, so it was. fun. So I just started and I didn't stop. for eight years and it just grew to.

theaters and and then before I knew it. my fourth album had come out, Yes I Am. All of a sudden That's the one that put. you in mainstream. Yeah, that was. mainstream. So now I'm playing arenas. and stadiums. >> That was the one I stripped to. That's. >> [laughter]. >> a good one. Believe me, when I start. that song there the audience is They're. all Yeah, they're all in it. I'm surprised. I can only imagine how many titties. you've seen. You to that song. Sorry, wifey. No, you No, she loves it. No, she. loves it. She knows. She loves it. She's.

the most under She's doesn't It's good. I'm going to stop talking. I can't wait. Well, [laughter] we're going to get into. how you guys met and everything, too. So. I want to know all of that. But um so. you're out here touring, you dropped. this record, you're mainstream. I mean, you're at the height of your career and. just it's I mean, you got You sang at. Brad and Jen's wedding. Well, they were. friends, yes. I mean, who can just say. that Brad Pitt's their friend, you know? Like that's just crazy. >> I met him before.

What was crazy was Hollywood in the late. '80s, early '90s. was. we didn't know. We didn't know when I'm. sitting around with now, you know, Academy Award nominees and and winners. and and a friend of mine, Catherine. Keener. uh she. she was an actress and she said, "Oh, I. have this friend that I just did this. movie with. His name's Brad. It's his. birthday. Will you call him? He's a big. fan of yours." You know, I'm like, "Okay." This is before Thelma & Louise. This is before anything.

And. >> when he was really hot. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nice. Oh, no. You would. know. The minute I met him, I was like, "Well, look at you." You know? And he was from Missouri. >> that. He was from Missouri. She said, "Look at you.". I know. >> [laughter]. >> I would cuz I'm like, he's just. beautiful. We used to have like swimming. pool I had a real fun swimming pool and. I had like a basketball hoop on the. swimming pool and and we all used to. gather and I mean this is like River. Phoenix and and you were just really. uh.

beautiful I. God, I could go on and on. How was your relationship with River? I. feel like he did not get. enough time here. No, no, not at all. No, it was incredibly sad when he passed. away and it was and you know, they. yes, they had been. you know, there was always drugs in in. Hollywood, but it wasn't a mainstream. thing back then. We They drank a lot and. we'd smoke pot, but you know, that was. about it. And when it was the cough. syrup with. something else he had taken and it was.

so sad and Joaquin it just, you know, died in his arms. It was just really, really sad time. And um just. but it was a beautiful. time in Hollywood with a lot of people. that had no I mean, Ellen DeGeneres and. you know, we're all hanging out in in my. pool and what I was saying Brad. >> ever hook up? Did me and Ellen? No, that's That would be gay. >> [laughter]. >> I love that. Do you understand what I. mean? I get it. >> [laughter].

>> That is hilarious. Got you. So you like you like the fems. You like feminine women. >> Okay, guys, she's like, "Yes.". [laughter] Do you like straight women? Is that the thing? >> Well, that was a problem. >> Yeah. That was a problem and I got over. that problem. >> to turn them out. Wow, you are you. understand my world. That's That's. exactly That's exactly [laughter]. what my first 10 albums, you know. >> that. That is another thing is you've. always stayed so true to yourself in the.

music. Like when you would talk about. relationships, it was she. It wasn't he, whereas like even Elton John when he. first was in the music scene, he had to. sing about having a wife and Rocket Man, you know, like And it's like you don't. have a wife, sir. I know. I told them I. said, "I'm not going to Well, they said, "Well, as long as you don't flag wave.". I don't know what that means, but you. know, what that meant then I was like, "Okay, whatever." But [laughter] I said. I'm not going to pretend I'm something. I'm not. I'm not going to go to. red carpets and find a boyfriend. I'm. doing air quotes. You know, and and um.

no, I just I wouldn't do that. And and I always wrote very. universal. pronouns, language, you know, that you. can turn it any way you want. It can be. but boy did women know that I was. singing about women. They're like, "Oh, nobody writes like that about a man." Do. you think that that's why your album. the the fourth one? I forget what it's. called. Yeah, it's. >> Yes I Am. >> Yes I Am. Um do you think that's why it.

did it resonated so well with the masses. because you were just being true to who. you were and people actually accepted it. which during a time when people weren't. that accepting back then? >> no, this it was. the gay community was strong here and I. and I met a lot of people in the. in the community a lot of the. the ones who were fighting for our. rights, these leaders. And we had we were right in the middle. of the AIDS epidemic and and our friends. and everyone was dying and we were like,

"If we don't stand up and say something. everyone's just going to be fine that we. die.". There was a big strong political feeling. about being. a. a famous person and actually saying you. were gay. It was you know, we they had. outed a a few and you know, in a bad. ways. Yeah, which that's horrible to. have it out anyway. >> awful cuz you know, it would end careers.

and it would end you'd lose your job and. all this sort of stuff. And. I. I I never was closeted really cuz if you. knew me at all, if you met me, I'd. introduce you to my girlfriend, you. know, I I just there was a line. It was. a serious don't ask, don't tell in the. early '90s of we won't ask you if you're. gay you and you just don't talk about. it, okay? And so finally. I was at it was the it was the. election of Bill Clinton Yes. >> and Al Gore and it really signified a.

time of change in America cuz we had had. God, 12 years of conservative Reagan and. Bush and it was awful. Bill got in there. and just started humping everybody. And. he did. Sex came back, man. Sex came back. Yes, it was. And it. we felt that and it was that night that. I was like, "Yeah, I'm a lesbian." You. know, and did it and it was in the. newspapers the next day. >> Were you scared? Like what was that Take. me on that moment where you were just. like where you were just ready? I was.

ready. I was. pretending. >> Hiding. Yeah, I was done I didn't got. People were starting to ask me. This was. already my fourth album. People were. starting to ask me the personal. questions. Who did you write this about? Blah blah. And someone actually did a. article where they said they changed all. the pronouns to my boyfriend. And I was. like, "Good God, people are going to. read this and think. and know know well well she's gay. Why. is she saying that?" And they'll think I. lied and that made me crazy. So my my. plan was to come out on Arsenio Hall.

because he was the cool he was very. cool. He was one a late night host that. would let me talk and I had all I was. ready to when the album came out a few. months later. But in the meantime, I did. the inauguration and I came out just. It was just the perfect it was divine. timing. >> then as the the there was no social. media. So this is not something that. went poof. But slowly as I. did my you know my tour press and you. you you do pre-interviews with the city. you're going to city by city.

they would start asking me questions and. for. 3 years all I talked about was being gay. cuz nobody would answered nobody had. answered these questions before. And it was just all brand new. So I. think it actually helped open doors. >> me but helped my career by me coming. out. I got extra publicity. and people were curious. I. I know I've heard plenty of stories of. oh my mother never let me bring your. albums into the house, you know, you. were the devil or whatever. You know, I.

know. So so there was you know a. a bit of a dampening and you know, but. um who knows I I think. I have a blessed career. Absolutely, but. I also feel like in a way you opened. doors for other artists after you. that were you know, that are in the. lifestyle and. I listen to Chappell Roan. Yay! And I'm. like We love Chappell. We want Chappell. on the podcast. >> yeah. I'm like, "Damn.". If I could have written that if I could.

have. you know, "Good luck, babe." That's. that's just. you know, go go ahead and leave it's. going to. you're going to have to stop the world. to stop this feeling, you know, and and. all the songs she writes I'm like, "Oh. yeah, you go, girl." You guys need to to. do something together. I would I would. love to. She has she has named me as an. an influence and because she comes from. the Midwest also and and coming out and. stuff. So she I know she has an.

appreciation. So yeah, yeah, you you see. her you let her know anything anytime. anywhere. >> need you and Melissa Etheridge to. [laughter] do a collaboration, Miss. Thang, okay? We need that to happen. ASAP. I would I would love that. And you know. what? That would actually go insanely. viral because Chappell and you together, oh my God. And your their voices. together? Come on. A rock and roll pink pony club? Rock and roll pink pony club, Chappell, we need you, baby. We're saying it right. here right here, baby.

I'm ready. Yeah, she said. >> [laughter]. >> I'm ready. She said, "I'm ready." Bring. it on. So moving on from all this fame. hanging out with By the way, how is. Jennifer Aniston? Are you guys still. friends? I haven't um talked to her in. years, but the last time I saw her she. is a It was it was really something. I. lost contact with Brad. It's not that I. we chose or anything. He it was just. this it was so hard for everybody cuz. that was a really strong sort of kind of. Hollywood thing. It was it was it was. really something. I lost contact with. Brad. It's not that I. we chose or anything. He it was just. this it was so hard for everybody cuz. that was a really strong sort of Yeah.

kind of Hollywood thing. It still is. They will not it's freaking 20 something. years later and they just don't leave it. alone. Yeah, that's crazy. >> I know it's not So I I haven't seen we. cuz we it's like any friendships in you. know, in your 20s and whatever you think. things change and you grow and you have. children and you go away and but um I. have seen her more than I have Brad. But she is an beautiful incredible. delightful human being. I could never. say anything. She's an Aquarius. >> Oh she Well, see. Yeah.

>> No, she's a wonderful wonderful human. being. I love that. I can't wait to meet. her. Oh yeah, she's great. So moving on. from all of this, you when do the the. children come into play? When do you. start deciding to have children because. I know I had heard you say that you. didn't want to have kids. And that's. where I have been my entire life and I'm. almost 45 and I finally decided with my. husband in this last year. I'm like, "I. would like a little bit of us running. around, you know?" And for the longest. time I felt the same way that you did. What changed that for you?

Um. I I I don't know that it changed. I'm. I'm really surprised that I have. children. [laughter]. But what what it was was my partner at. the time. Again, growing up in the 60s, 70s, even. early 80s. it wasn't an option. It you That was one. of the reasons it was so sad to families. is oh you'll never have children that. sort of thing. And. my childhood wasn't so awesome that I. thought oh I want to bring a child in.

and my mothering. uh mirror was not I had didn't have much. mothering or nurturing. I didn't know. what I would be like as a mom. So in '95. when my partner was like I I I think I. want to have kids and I was like, "Oh, this this is very interesting." And of. course I was like, "Wow, I I don't know. what I'll be like, but if you want to. have them I'll go be the guy and I'll go. work and I'll bring the money home and. you raise the kids, [laughter] right?". You know, something like that in my. head. And and then my daughter was born.

and I'm like, "Oh oh wow, this is. amazing." And instantly fell in love and. realized. that I was I I was a dad mom. You know, I just I mothered like my father. And have always been like that. >> also a generational curse breaker and I. think that you had your dad as a role. model absolutely, but your mom showed. you everything you didn't want to be in. a mom. So you broke those curses. >> Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I was like, "No. I may not have ever heard I love you, but you're going to hear it every day.

You're going to every time you leave a. room I'm going to tell you I love you.". And every in our family whenever someone. leaves a goes from one room to the other. it's like, "I love you." It it it really. stays, you know. And my children do not ever worry that. or think that I don't love them at all. in any way. Can we talk about how iconic. it is that the that two of your kids um. David Crosby. was Do we call him the sperm donor or do. how what do you refer to him as? >> uh Bailey calls. her him.

her bio dad. Got you. Yeah. Okay. >> Because the reason that we chose him. because when when my partner said she. wanted to have children. she she had been adopted and she didn't. like that she didn't know who who her. real parents were. So she wanted her. children to know who their father was. And. >> though. I I totally agree with that. >> I and I respected that 100%. I was like, "Okay, but this person. I don't want them to be a father a a. figure in their life. I want them to be.

able to go that's where I came from, but. this is the parent that raised me." And. that was really important. One of the. reasons that we didn't go with Brad Pitt. who was who was a very good friend at. the time my Was that an option? That would have been amazing. >> that's my Believe me, Bailey's like, "Brad Pitt could have been my father? Are you insane?" You know. >> [laughter]. >> But Brad wanted children really bad. >> you imagine those genes? Good lord. >> [laughter]. >> Bradness. So he he he was only. it wasn't.

anyway. Yeah. So I run into uh. David Crosby and him and his wife had. just used like IVF and different things. to um. to conceive their child. And so they. were very grateful and Jan his wife. said, "Well, what about David?" And I. thought that's perfect. He's a musician. He he and he's has children. He's. doesn't. doesn't need. doesn't need. and and he's you know, beautiful and I.

mean people didn't see the beauty that I. did in him sometimes, you know. Bailey. looks like him. >> Oh my gosh, the cheeks the. >> insane. >> Yeah. Yeah, she definitely has his his. cheeks and so. >> her face I was like, "Holy cow.". >> it's crazy, isn't it? And. he looked kind of like me, too. So I. liked that. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> I love that. >> That's as close as I could get. And he. was a wonderful he was always there, but. never. never inserted himself into their life. at all. Like I love that. >> This is kind of a personal question and. we can cut this out, but this is kind of.

like what I want to know because we're. planning on using a surrogate and if we. can't use my eggs, we're going to be. using donor eggs. How was it bonding. with the children, you know, with them. not having that DNA? How was that for. And we can cut this out if you want to. >> Oh no, no, no, no, not at all. Uh cuz I. just want to respect boundaries, but how. how was that bonding? Let me let let me. tell you the. it. My children. are of me. They.

they do not have a drop of my blood in. them or DNA or whatever that is. But their souls, their spirit, you you. will find. when you have this baby that when they. are older. that they will look like you because. they have learned to smile and move. their facial movements. like you because you will have been. smiling at them from the day the moment. they were born. So all of my children.

have my smile. I just got goosebumps. >> And that's so there is never there's not. a. there's not a moment's thought unless. someone asked me that I don't think that. these children that. I would step in front of a train. I. would you know, there is no. doubt. And it it does not come into play ever. I love it. That's how I feel about. Bailey. She's not mine biologically, but. like even people are like she has your. mannerisms. She she acts like you.

>> They will laugh like you. They will all. of that. There is not. you know, and. I don't know physically that would be. the only thing, but the the features, the spirit, >> Mhm. how they look to you, you will be. mother, you will always be the only. mother. >> Mhm. I love it. That makes me so happy. I just wanted to ask that question. because, you know, thinking about using. donor eggs, you kind of like you're just. like, "What if I have, you know, an. issue bonding with this baby?" But I. mean, I don't think I would cuz I've.

bonded with Jay's daughter, you know, we've had full custody of her for 8. years. And she's my child. Like I will. go to war for this child. >> There you go. >> Yeah. And that's just the way it is. That's There's not It's There's nothing. to do with. DNA. Yeah. Thank you. I call this my. meat suit, you know? That's it. That is. our meat suit. It totally I I say that. to everybody. Can we move on to your. son, Beckett? >> Yes. He was also cuz you have four. children total, correct? You have twins. and then you have Bailey and Beckett. Okay. So we're going to move on to.

Beckett. Beckett is also. you with your ex-wife and David Crosby's. bio dad. What. being in the scene that you're in and. you know, being around. and stuff like that and seeing how, you. know, substance abuse affected your. childhood, how was that whenever your son. fell into that? >> Oh, it was so hard. He.

You'll notice. that some children. just the wind is always blowing in their. face, you know? It's just it. it's just harder. on in all ways. And you see it's a lot of what they. believe and how they perceive the world. Mhm. And. it is never up to us to change. anyone's perception. Only they can do. that. So when he and it was young, it was, you.

know, 12, 13, you I could see his. pushing against. teachers and and, you know, the first. thing you do as a parent is, "Oh, this. is my fault. It's cuz he's from a broken. home. It's cuz of". You know, and you Who knows? This is this child and and and his. mountain. And. we did everything we could. We. you know, I I. put him in, you know, outward bound. classes, you know, sort of thing, and.

and he would be okay, and then. Uh he started getting into snowboarding. at, you know, 15, 16, 17. He was back in. school, but it was hard to stay in. school. I was trying to do different. tutoring for him. And he just got. really, really good at snowboarding. You know, I knew. you know, he would. I knew he was smoking pot. I knew he was. getting down the street from the rich. kids and, you know, and. and you're just trying to hold it.

together in a way thinking it'll pass. And he loved. snowboarding and he's the Aspen team. starts looking at him and he goes to to. train with them in Aspen. And he. takes a big jump and he falls and breaks. his foot in two places. And then they gave him they gave him. Vicodin for the pain, which. you know, he had These old dreams were. broken, so his whole soul was broken and. and he never recovered from He never got. out from the opioids. The opioids became.

street opioids. It's heroin. And last. thing when he was 21, he was. during the pandemic and it was fentanyl. and it was over, you know, boom. I couldn't imagine the heartbreak of. getting that phone call and just having. to deal with that. >> Well, by the time you get the phone. call, it you're expecting it. >> You're you I already went through the. "Okay, I'm. I It's either, you know, I'm going to make myself sick now. Mhm.

I I can't do this anymore. I can't save. him. I can't I, you know, I've I've gone. through the giving him something to help. him and do this to taking everything. away so he's homeless to you know, you. do everything and Does nothing work? >> And there's nothing and they just keep. sinking down and then it's gone and. there's it's. there's a little bit of a relief like, "Okay, he's finally out of pain.". And there's some peace and you're not. worried every time your phone lights up, you know. >> Yeah. And so it was very hard for the last. couple years. And so when.

when you send the welfare check cuz you. I hadn't heard from him 4 days and I. used to hear from him every single day. And 4 days and you just know and you. finally send the police and they say, "Yeah, he's dead." And. >> Oh my goodness. >> but. you move on. You you do. And he would. not want me to. punish myself for or feel guilty for. some choices he made. He would He wants. me to be happy. He's in a place where. he's out of pain. It's okay. I don't need to punish myself.

for any of that. >> That was in his soul contract. I believe. that. I believe in soul soul contracts. So not not everybody does, but I do. believe that before we come here, we. want to learn certain types of lessons. and that was his exit strategy. And I. really truly feel like people that die. from overdoses, maybe they might have. gotten off the path, but that. all in all was part of their soul. contract. >> It's going back to the mother. That's. what it has been. described to me that that heroin. takes you back to that place, the. feeling of the womb and they they want.

to go back and they're they want to go. I've never heard that. Yeah, it's it. feels like that. That's what it feels. like, yeah. Mhm. That is amazing and. crazy all at the same time. Amazing and. like. It's deep. That's very deep. Thank you. for talking about that, by the way, cuz. I know it's never. >> I think it helps cuz I know there's. hundreds and thousands of families who. are suffering with it today, right now. Absolutely. >> And if I can help someone feel. better,

get over the you know, not sink into. despair themselves, you know, then then that's good. Mhm. Yes. Testimonies Testimonies are. powerful and I feel like it also helps. people realize like cuz you know, you're. doing this docu-series, which we'll talk. about in a second. Um I think it will shed light on why. you're going so hard. I mean, you've. been performing in prison since you were. 12, too. So I mean, it's just kind of. like how your life has come full circle. But before we talk about that, can we. talk about how you are a breast cancer.

survivor? Yeah. That is amazing and I think I heard a. story of the morning of the Grammys, you. had radiation and had no hair and then. you still went and performed at the. Grammys. Yeah. You're a soldier. You're a warrior woman. >> I. I. I just. I'm not ready to give up. It's It's not. an option, right? It never has been and. in. this this was 2004. I'm actually 20. years cancer-free this year, so yay.

Yeah, and um this was after my first. divorce. This was a very lost time in my life. I. had had the big success and there's. nothing more. that's going to freak you out than. actually all your dreams coming true. because you're going to realize it. doesn't solve all your problems, you. know? It's like, "Oh, I thought this. would be. you know, the end. It I did it. There. you go. It's great. I'll be fine now.". But that's not life. Life is. is up and down and. and I I.

I didn't have a relationship with. myself. I was very sad. I was I, you. know, here I had become a mother and. then instantly we divorced and now I'm a. single mother and I just feel like I let. the world down and it just really weird. time. And I was eating like crap. It was the. end of the '90s, early 2000s where. everyone thought they had to be pencil. thin and so I tortured myself. You know, it's just all this stuff that we would. do until my body just said, "Look, I. can't do it anymore." And there was a.

tumor on my breast, my left breast. And right before that, just months. before that, I had. a. um. unintentional. heroic dose. of cannabis. Oh. >> It's one Yeah, it's Yeah, it's one of. those Oh, let's. >> let's [laughter] have Oh, that's a real. good cookie. Oh, this is good, you know, and you eat three and you're only. supposed to eat unintentional heroic. dose. >> [laughter]. >> That was so poetic.

Poetic. That's what it was. And it's one. of those where your. mind opens up. >> You meet God. And I saw God and I. understood. what life was and I came back changed. And then a few months later, >> [gasps]. >> I get cancer and I'm like, "Wow, this is. crazy." Cuz I I didn't fear death. anymore and I'm on this sort of. spiritual path now. And so the cancer. just. it put it into uber drive, right? It. just super.

everything changed. I changed. It was. magnificent and I've been on this high. ever since. And life is. so so that I'm so grateful for breast. cancer. And I went through it, got two. surgeries. It was stage three. They told. me, you know, I was always going to and. I don't believe any of that. I I believe. that I understood what gave me the. cancer. And if I can make joy a priority. in my life, if I can eat the things that. bring me joy, make me feel good and and.

do the things and make the choices for. myself that I will be able to live a. healthy, happy life. And it's been 20. years and I think I can brag about it. now. >> Yes, ma'am, you can. [laughter] You. earned that right. You earned those. stripes. I am a firm believer and I. preach this on the podcast. I know. they're so tired of hearing it, but what. the mind feels, the body will follow. >> 100% the the body is in reaction to the. mind. The mind The Like I said, meat. suit. Total meat suit. >> Absolutely. And. it.

I know instantly I can tell. It's like. oh, this hurts, that hurts. Oh, that's. because, you know, you you get things. and it's wow, well, I've been feeling. very closed down. I've been, you know, of course my back's going to start. hurting. I don't feel supported, you. know, oh, you know, the just all of that. stuff and it makes it it makes our. bodies make sense. When when you have. the belief that. oh, something might happen to me. I. might get cancer out of nowhere. I might. get heart disease out of nowhere. That's not how it works. It's stress. >> you'll feed. Yes, thank you. You know it.

all. No, for sure. >> You're just on the you're on that. journey. Well, I had to. I got sober and. I, you know, went on I saw the Dark. Knight and went on my spiritual journey. and I'm telling you. I just got misdiagnosed with an aneurysm. last month. And I told myself like I. don't I thought I was going to pass out. when I got the news. Said it was on my. carotid artery and my mom actually had. one and almost died. So, I felt like I. was going to pass out anyways. Long. story short, cuz this isn't about me, but it's just. I didn't believe it. I was like this is.

not and if I do and if I do have it, I'm. going to have surgery and it's going to. be fine or whatever. I was getting a cat. scan. I heard the the loudest voice in. my head and it said it's not an. aneurysm. Went to two neurosurgeons. Turned out. that I have two identical blood vessels. on both sides of my carotid arteries. that's just my part of my DNA. >> [clears throat]. >> So, I was just like praise Jesus, you. know, like it's just. >> But you have to literally just no matter. what I think our our life lesson is to. learn how to have faith.

You cannot control everything and you. have to just sometimes you have to say, you know what God, whatever your will's. going to be or whatever higher power you. believe in. >> Yeah. You know, it's just whatever your. will is, let it happen and. [clears throat]. And that has been. the most exciting 20 years of my life. have been the last when you. when you stop trying to make your. happiness dependent on other people or. other things, when you can find your. happiness inside yourself and you're in. charge of it, oh, that's so powerful. That's so powerful. Paul. That's that's.

that's the path. That's that's where you. want to walk. That's the good stuff. >> really good and you start changing the. world like you have. Absolutely. You too. though. I When we first met you at Music Cares, I just I told my husband I was like I. love this woman. I was like she has such. amazing energy. You just have angel. energy and you can tell when people are. good humans, you know, and my husband. just adores you. Like he's like he I. can't believe Melissa Etheridge is my. friend. Like. >> [laughter]. >> He's just so excited. Like he just can't. believe it. Him and you you and Bon Jovi.

just blow his mind. The fact that you. guys that he can call you guys friends, he's just like that this is amazing to. me. He's he's he's special too and you. know that. You know that and he's he's. got that big wonderful heart and of. course as his friend, I do I think about. him a lot and and I know what a weird. space. it can be and I tell him and I would. tell you too, man, call me. Just text me. anytime. Please do. >> Yeah. I'm going to give you my number.

cuz I don't trust him to give it to you. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I got it from you. So, moving on, how did we meet wifey? Cuz I I stumbled upon a really cool. well, it was awesome to me cuz I'm into. astrology and all that stuff. You guys. have the same freaking birthday. Like. [laughter] how it like. only two Geminis would find love in each. other. I mean, I think that's hilarious. because you guys are either exactly. alike or you guys are opposite ends of. the spectrum. Are you guys exactly both? Yeah.

Okay, so we'll start with. I met her. 20. two, three years ago. I've 23. 2001, so 23 years ago. She is a um television creator, writer, producer. >> Yay! Boss mama. She was yeah, boss mama. big time. She was the showrunner for the. 70 Show, That 70 Show. Oh, awesome. And. uh. went on she's created Nurse Jackie and. she's she's a pioneering woman.

>> That's [laughter] what she does. I love. that. I love that. Nurse Jackie was. huge, dude. >> it was. That's amazing. >> one of the first thing to ever really. deal with, you know, opioid abuse. First show that ever. talked about it. So, she called me in because she was. doing a new show called that The 80s. Show. And um she called me in because she. liked my work. and respected me and thought I would be. a it was a character of a that ran a.

music store and she just really wanted. to base the show on a strong so, I came. in, met her. Instantly it was like. they offered me the part and I was. touring and the money didn't, you know, and I couldn't and I was like oh, God, I. can't do it, but I really liked her and. this is back in the early 2000s before. they had reality shows. It was like. reality shows were about to come in and. I remember sitting at a table cuz we. said we want let's do something. together, you know, and and she saw how.

very interesting my life was and was. like man, if we could just have a couple. cameras around your life. I was like. that's weird and then the Osbornes came. out right after it and we were like oh, my God, that was a they took that idea, you know, just but it was in the it was. in the ether, but so we we were best. friends. She became a best friend. because we were so much alike Aw. >> and we loved. football. Yeah. humongous Who's the. teams? She's a Packers fan, Green Bay. Packers. She grew up she was born in. Wisconsin, grew up in Illinois, but.

remained a Packer fan. Got you. I grew. up in Kansas, so I'm a Kansas City. Chiefs fan and I am enjoying life very. much these last few years. >> Oh, for sure. My husband thinks they're. going to go to the Super Bowl this year. >> course. >> [laughter]. >> I think your husband and I should go to. the Super Bowl. Let's do it. We can all. go. That'd be amazing. >> It's in Vegas. No, no, it's not. It's in. New Orleans. New Orleans. It was in. Vegas last year. It's in New Orleans. Yeah, so we were best friends. She. helped me through cancer as my friend. She. saw me through the hard times in my.

relationship again, my second marriage. Uh she knew all my children. My children. loved and adored her especially my. oldest. Uh when I went through my spiritual. change, she was one of the only one that. would listen to me and was interested in. understood. and we were extremely close as best. friends. Then when my marriage fell. apart. uh she was working on Nurse Jackie in. New York and she was selling her house. and I was like well, come stay with me, you know, my wife's gone and I have no.

housekeeper and I have four children and. I'm a single mom and so she came and. stayed and. the thought had crossed her mind that. maybe we might take a step further. I. was like I suck at relationships. I'm. horrible. I'm never going to be in a. relationship again. and no, but but be my friend and help me. and for months she would get up with me. She would make the lunches for all four. kids. She would help me with the. breakfast. She until one and and every. night after they went to bed, we'd sit.

and talk and just our relationship was. this like this and then. one day. little ones were running around. The. two-year-olds were running around and. and we had changed some things in the. kitchen and I was like where are the. sippy cups? And she looks at me and she. goes. well, dear. and I went. because it went inside and you know, all. of a sudden that was the click of. man, I have I'm finally having the. relationship with a person, this home. relationship that I was wanted that I.

could count on someone who I could I. knew could help me with my children who. were all these things. and I find her attractive. Oh, no, what. am I going to do now? And I didn't want. to mess up our. friendship. but she was like and she she just. >> love Did you love her? Oh, yeah. And I didn't know just how. deeply cuz I was in my own relationships. and drama and whatnot. So, but yeah, I guess our my soul did. Yeah.

And it has never cuz soon we found out. our differences which were very good and. worked together and. and the the sexual part of the. relationship has been better than I've. ever had in my life and I had. I had no idea. I had no idea and it's. been uh. How many years have we been together? 10, 15? Four Oh my goodness. I forget I forget, you know, when you get to a point, you. know. >> Yeah.

>> But they didn't let us get married till. 10 years ago, so we're married 10 years. I love that. Isn't it amazing when you find that. person? It just happens. And I think it. happened because I finally got myself. into a place of. cuz I used to believe oh, I had to I had. to have that beautiful. straight-looking smart, you know, not. smart, but I needed a beautiful and. straight. because those were things I didn't feel. and I felt I needed that and I would. fall in love with the look and just hope.

they fit later and that was no [snorts]. way to do it. >> disaster And finally I I have had I've. had this solid relationship with a. person and I'm like oh, I can fall in. love with that. >> fall in love with a soul. with a soul. >> That's how it is with my husband. Like I. just love his soul. >> And and I I loved myself enough. >> Yes. to see that no, no, it's about me. being happy. This person makes me so. happy. You know. To be together that long and. to still feel that way, what is your. guys' secret? What's that if you could.

give anybody relationship advice? Like. what's one key thing? I say this. because we say it to each other all the. time because we understand it. You have to love yourself as much. as you want the other person to love. you. You have to take care of yourself. as much as. you want to take care of your partner. and you.

you know, and you want them to take care. of you, you have to there are certain. things that. it's it's not about the other person. doesn't fill you up. You have to fill. you up. Mhm. And then that joy. allows all this happiness. We can't save. our partners. We have to be a light in ourselves. She. went through a health thing a couple of. years ago. And I. knew it's like okay, I can't get sick.

enough to make her well. I have to be well. I have to be enjoying. my career. I have to be loving where I'm. going so that I can be a light so that. she can raise up be uh. inspired by that. >> Mhm. That's what we do. We inspire each. other. She inspires me. Oh my god, there's so many times I fall down a deep. hole and she's like, are you crazy? You. know, what you know, you silly girl. She. doesn't go down there with me. She stays. up up, you know, and we have because we. fill ourselves up. >> Mhm. we are there for the other one.

Mhm. That's powerful. I love that. That's. amazing. That's so real, too. Cuz I feel. like people get lost in each other. >> Yeah. when they get into and that's I. think that's love. Right. >> We were raised with that. We were raised. with. mothers that said you have to take care. of me. Yes. >> You know, if you do this, I'll die. Mhm. And and we think that we have to be. something for somebody else to be okay. Boy, you got you have to change that cuz. that that will make you sick. No, that's. how Jay and I are. We we love each other. immensely, but we also make sure that we.

each have our own separate things to. where it's like we're we're each other's. rocks in different ways, you know, it's. like if he falls down, I lift him up. If. Yeah. I fall down, he lifts me up. And. that's really the way you have to do it. You have to be steadfast in yourself to. be able to you know, maintain a. relationship for a long time. We've only. been together 8 years. You guys have us. way beat. >> Still 8 8's good. >> yeah, I wouldn't listen to that. I don't. know how we've made it this long. >> [laughter]. >> I always tell everybody they're like,

congratulations on 8 years. I'm like, I. think you need to congratulate him on. surviving. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. And you know what? We do it every day. and we just. we just learn more every single day. This is a practice. Mhm. We're we're. supposed to get it wrong. Yeah. >> And there's not even wrong you can't get. it wrong because you can always do it. more. There's always the next one. You. learn, you live and you learn. And I. really truly believe friendship is a. huge basis for any relationship. Cuz my. husband and I are friends before we're. lovers. >> That's that's exactly us. And we always.

we always say or she'll say to me she. goes, gosh, I love your girlfriend now. No. Cuz. you know, she used to anyway. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. You know, I'm. [laughter] not going to explain the. joke. Gotcha. Okay. Moving on from the. love story. Let's talk about this. docu-series. >> Oh, man. Yes, growing up in Leavenworth, Kansas. actually when I was 7 years old, Johnny. Cash came Mhm. to the prison that was. three blocks from my house. I could see. it from the backyard. Wow. Yes, the.

federal penitentiary. It was a big part. of Leavenworth. It's just. >> Yeah. it was part of my childhood. And. and there it wasn't he came. and none of us got to see him. Nobody but the prisoners. Aw. >> And I thought. prisons must be a place of fine. entertainment, you know? [laughter] This. is I want to do that. You know, so so I. started kind of started with that as a. child, but then later when I did go in. with some variety groups and these crazy. things that I did go in to entertain, I. saw.

everyday people. They're all in the same clothes. Yeah. And you know, you could tell that you. know, they're they were here and they. weren't incredibly happy. Um. but I saw people who were fed by. entertainment and joy and music and how. much it did and they were so. enthusiastic for anything they saw. >> Mhm. I would sing and it was the first. time an audience was like, yes, you. know, 100 people. >> Aw. >> 200 people. >> Yeah. to a 12-year-old, you know? Yeah.

>> Wow. That's just insane though that they. they even allowed a 12-year-old in a. prison. >> I know. >> [laughter]. >> It's insane. >> know how insane it is. It's crazy, but. it really happened and it was I went to. the women's prison. >> Mhm. Which was the first time I saw I. was like, looked at the audience I. thought I thought this was the women's. prison. It's the first time I saw women, masculine women, you know? And it kind. of blew my mind and and then went into. the state penitentiary. I went in to the. army penitentiaries there. Yeah. Played. in every single one of those. And and um.

have always in the back of my mind. thought of it. As a matter of fact, in. the early '90s, I was friends with Tammy. Wynette. Aw. She was beautiful woman and. uh we both had a desire to go play at a. women's penitentiary. We were talking to. HBO about going to one in in Virginia. that was run by women and it was a. women's penitentiary. And then she got. sick and died. And so I I had almost. done it in the '90s and so it's always. has been in my mind that I wanted to go. back into a prison. Well, now my life.

I lose my son. I become very involved. with um. finding alternatives to pain reduction. and to opioid addiction. And um. I go in I finally get the opportunity. Paramount Plus, MTV say, yeah, we'll do. this. And Sun Records, the they paid for. the album. I've got a live album now out. on Sun Records, which I've never had a. live album and I'm so ex- thrilled about. it. And the concert was the Topeka. Correctional Facility. Finally found the.

warden a female warden who she's so good. that she is now in in charge of all the. wardens of Kansas. >> Wow. >> has been promoted. She's so good because. she understands. that their punishment is their freedom's. taken away. It's not up to her to punish. them more in the prison. That's so. amazing. >> It's rehabilitating them and getting. them out. >> Yeah. So she says yes when I when we. come ask, can we do a concert? She's. like, yes. I say, how long? She goes, how long do you want? I say, I'm going. to curse and they're going to get really.

excited cuz that's what I do to an. audience is bring people up. And she's. like, go ahead. I'm like, okay, here we go. And it. it changed my life. And because so many of those women are. in there because of crimes committed to. feed their. drug addiction I. I related. And I got to tell you there's a moment. when I'm on stage and I'm talking to the. crowd, these these women who have lost. their freedom. They are in there. They. are working hard to try to get their.

lives together. And you know, joy is is hard to find. And I'm start telling them about my son. and how I had lost him. And the outpouring of empathy. and caring, every one of them put the. little hearts over their heads. >> [laughter]. >> I was like this wave of empathy from an. audience that. surely, you know, has had so much. happening. They they don't even see. their children. And.

and it really showed me that. people are people and and we all have. the same makeups and and we all have our. own times that we got to go through. our stuff. But there they were just being. empathetic and and delightful. And it. it really I I I can't wait for you to to. really you sit down with it and Oh, we. are. We're going to we I already told. you we have a 14-hour track we're going. to watch. And it's available on. Paramount Plus. >> Paramount Plus, okay. And it's called. I'm Not Broken. Where did you come up.

with that title? Well, there's a couple things. I I in the. movie I write them a song. Right. And I. I met them. I uh. really felt like I didn't want to write. a song that was like feeling sorry for. them. Any you know, sad, you know, oh, the green, green grass of home or. something like that. I didn't I didn't. want to make [laughter] them sad. >> Right, right, right. You know, and and. I'm I'm like, I want to lift them up. I. want them to see what power they have. And that where they are did not define, you know, where they're going. Yeah. And. and so I I wanted a rock and roll song.

I wanted a song that they that we could. do a call and response to, you know, and. and just get lift people up. And I was like, what what are the things. I want to say? I want to say I'm a. burning woman. So that the name of the. song is I'm a burning woman. And I was with a friend of ours, a. director, um Amy Tinkham. She had. directed my Broadway uh. uh show. And she had just been like uh. uh researching the Bob Marley because. she did his show in Vegas. And and she. was she had been to this mountain top.

with this reggae Rastafarian man. And. and this take her to the priest. And the. priest just looks at her and says. you're not broken. Mhm. And it just healed her. She was. like, oh, you know, didn't know that. that was a belief. And she came home and. she when she said I'm not broken I was. like, that's it. That's it. That's exactly what I want to. say. So the the chorus is I'm a burning. woman. I'm not broken. I'm a burning. woman. I am worth it.

You know, and and that's what I wanted. to leave with them. So the Paramount and. and we all agreed that the name of the. thing would be I'm not broken. That. you're not broken. You're just learning. Have you ever stopped to think that that. song is kind of like an affirmation? Oh. All of my songs are. [laughter] Yeah. That's yeah. Just listening to that. For myself. >> Mhm. No, it it is there's just as much. healing going on for me. >> Yeah. as there was in in the crowd. And.

and that song I love singing it every. night. Even the people don't know it. I. get it's the only song I've ever cursed. in. Yeah. You know, I oh. I love that. You know, and [laughter] so I tell the. audience I said. >> It's getting spicy. I know it's getting. spicy. There's some strong language in. this. And I just, you know, singing it. and um. just bring it and it and it's just it's. definitely an affirmation. So I'm not. broken and I I'm I am worth it and I. sing that to myself every single night. >> I love that and you guys have to check. it out. It's on Paramount Plus. >> Please do. >> We're going to watch it while we're.

driving from LA to El Paso in the next. few days so I can't wait. I'll I'll text. you cuz I'll have your number. >> That's right. I'll be like, >> [laughter]. >> "Hi Melissa, I watched it." It's going. to I'm this is your new BFF. I'm just. going to We'll have a group chat. We'll. have a group chat. >> not going to get rid of us now. We're. going to be all over you. I love it. And. let's talk about you have a tour and an. album dropping and then I'll let you out. of I'll let you out of here cuz I've. kept you for so long. >> the live album is I'm not broken. It's. the It's the live album. It's a double. album set just like in the '70s like. Peter Frampton. It's It's this concert.

It's got the hits on it but it's also. has some deep tracks that I really. wanted to uh bring to the women. that about, you know, transformation and. and and fear and darkness and these. things. And um. the tour I'm on I'm always on tour cuz. that's what I love to do. >> Yeah. Uh. >> Your husband, you guys just live in a. bus. >> [laughter]. >> I can do that. >> That's what my husband does. >> for my children, might not cuz my wife. comes with me and we're like, "Yeah, it's it's what it's all about.".

>> that. Me too. I have my own bus though. >> Oh. Smart. I was like, "You're not putting. me on a bus with 11 dudes. Not. happening.". >> Okay. Well, there's four five dudes on. our No, four four dudes on our bus and. us two so it's okay. It's a small band. Yeah. So, we're going out doing some. dates on our on my own. Well, I've just. got about 6 weeks left I think and and. then some dates with Jewel. But this. summer I did some dates with the Indigo. Girls and they were great. >> Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know they. were still together. >> Yeah, they've they've Yeah, we're all. coming together. It's a big like '90s.

fest and I think we're going to do some. more. I think we're going to do Yeah. Remember uh what was it? Lilith Fair. Do. you remember that? Yes. What do you What. do you think I want to know your. definition of what Lilith Fair was? I went one year and I forget who was. playing cuz I was so fun. My definition. of Lilith Fair was like. uh just a bunch of powerful women who. got to go and bring other women together. and like that's why we went because it. was so I've always been like woman. power, you know? >> Yeah. I I never played Lilith Fair.

That's another thing but I do I do think. there's another like all female powerful. something coming. >> Something. Yeah, it needs to come back. around and we need to have powerhouses. like you, Stevie Nicks. Like yeah, just. everybody just go and perform. I'll be. there. I might show my titties cuz I'll. be excited [laughter]. cuz I'll be super excited, you know? And. it's going to be all women there. anyways. >> Come on. Yeah, I think maybe we need to. design that. Let's do it. Let's set it. up. >> All right. Melissa, thank you so much for coming. and just being able to sit down with you. for this past hour and a half has been. just a blessing.

>> My pleasure. You are a delightful woman. and I am just blessed to be in your. presence. >> Aw, I Listen, you guys all want to make. out cuz we can. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> I'm making out with wifey under this. too. So you guys, I got to let you go cuz you. Bailey is going is getting married. You. are heading out to. >> a party which is a thing they do. nowadays. Yes, I guess. I didn't have an. engagement party but okay. It's going to. be So how cool is that to have you as a. mother-in-law though? Aw. She puts up. with it. You you know, kids are kids no.

matter how famous you are, no matter who. you are, what you do, you still are you. can still let them down. You can still. You can still not perfect. >> No, I get it. I totally get. We have We. got our daughter at home and sometimes. she's like, "I'm just, you know, can you. guys just turn it off?". >> Yeah. I'm [laughter] like, "What do you mean?". >> I KNOW. YEAH. WE'RE GOOD NOW. WE'RE FINE. Everything's. great. Aw. No. Well, thank you guys. again for being here and I'm so I'm so. happy I got to meet wifey too. >> Oh, yeah. And thank you guys for tuning. in to another episode of Dumb Blonde.

I'll see you guys next week. Bye. >> [music].