The Peggy Hettrick Case That Stunned Our Live Audiences

How could this have happened to us? But. you know, over the years I see so many. people losing loved ones. But um and I. and the one question that keeps coming. back to me is um if we had done. something different, if we'd stayed in. Hawaii, if we'd stayed in Spain, this. would have never happened, you know? Why. did this this happen? what what what. brought us here to this place, you know, for this to happen? Um.

there there's so many multiple. universes, you know, we could have. stayed here, stayed there, moved to Florida earlier. Um and and she. would have been alive today, but she but. it it didn't happen that way. Why? Um I don't know. I don't know. But I. wish we would have I wish we would have. done some things differently. Yeah. Uh.

in my lifetime now, it's been 30ome. years since Peggy's gone and and still. nothing has been done about it. And it's. like everybody just wants to turn a. blind eye to it and move on. What? What? Move on? I've got stage 4. colon cancer. I'm doing all right right. now, but I my doctor has told me and she. was very blunt about it. She said, "You. know that this is going to kill you.".

And I said, "Yeah, I know that. I. understand that." So that's why I agreed. to do this interview because I may not. be around before this comes to a. conclusion, you know, but I'd like to. see it start. I'd like to see him uh get. busy and do their job and and make uh. give Peggy resolution, you know. Maybe me, maybe I'll still be. around. I don't know, but I'll try try.

to be around. I'm not afraid. Uh I I'm. not afraid of anything anymore. I can't. be. I have to be strong and and um and I. want if we can do something for Peg and. her memory, then let's get it done now. So, what do you say, crime junkies? Let's.

This is a lot of people. >> A lot of people.

>> Hi, crime junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Rich. >> This is weird, you guys. This is really. freaking weird. We haven't been on tour. in six years, and it was not this. >> It was not this at all. Oh my god. >> Thank you guys for coming to our. hometown show. Uh in. Indie is keeping me humbled. I don't.

know if you were out front standing in. line. I biffed it and like fell in the. concrete. Yep, you saw it. She's fine. We checked her out, but uh. found a peg. >> All right, you guys. I We are here to. tell a story. I'm ready. Are you guys. ready? >> All right. So, the person you saw. speaking, that was Tom Hrik, and his. sister Peggy Hetric was murdered in Fort. Collins, Colorado back on February 11th.

of 1987. Now, there is still plenty that can be. done to solve her case, but the people. in charge who have the power to do that. something are doing nothing. >> But you know what changes that? >> A little bit of pressure. >> A lot of noise. And so, we're here today. to tell you why you should make noise. and why you should be straight up mad. Not just on behalf of Peggy and Tom, but. so many people in our story. And it's a.

story that starts on February 11th, 1987. Now, it's February in Colorado, but. there's no snow on the ground, but it's. cold at 7:00 in the morning when this. guy named Woody is biking his way to. work. He's like head down. I imagine. he's just like in the zone. >> And all of a sudden, he kind of gets. like snapped out of his days when he. sees something in this vacant field. And. then all of a sudden, he sees in front. of him this like splash of blood. And in.

that moment, he realizes it's not just a. splash of red. It it truly is blood. And. so in that moment, he's like, "Forget. work." Like, he has to get police there. to the scene. >> And when police come, what they find is. a 100 foot blood trail to the middle of. the field where they see the body of a. woman laying face up. She's got her. hands over her head, her legs are out, her bra and shirt have been pulled up, her pants and underwear have been pulled.

down. and they assume that she had been. stabbed because of the blood, but they. can't actually see any wound. The only. thing they see is like a gash on her. cheek, and they see that one of her. nipples has been removed. >> Yeah. So they also noticed that she has again. she's got her clothes on her, her. jacket, her purse is clung like hung. over her shoulder still and like. everything is still inside. All the. normal stuff you would expect to find. Even her checkbook which is how they end. up identifying her as 37year-old Peggy.

Hetrick. >> But along with her checkbook like she. still has all of her jewelry. She. >> So it's not a robbery. >> It's not they're not so not that what. they're thinking. And especially because. like there's a like something about the. way that she was put out there like with. her arms spread like she feels posed, right? Like this feels like something. more than that. So by 9:00 a.m. this. field is just like a frenzy with. officers. And one of the sergeants that. responds to the scene that day is. Sergeant Ray Martinez. And he says when.

he shows up he is surprised to see. basically all of Fort Collins Police. Department there. Now, unfortunately, not all of the hands that are on deck. are gloved. So, as they're working this scene, they. turn Peggy over and they realize that. they were right. She had been stabbed. once to the upper back. They also. noticed that there's a ton of like dry. or dead grass like on her butt. And so.

the like little semblance of this theory. starts to begin to form about what could. have happened because you see they. follow that blood trail back to where it. was on the curb and they notice a couple. of really interesting things. So first. there's this like really critical set of. footprints near the blood spatter. Footprints that do not match Peggy's. shoes that she's wearing. And then they. also notice that there is this cigarette. butt in the blood. And Peggy was known. to be a smoker. So they start thinking,

okay, maybe she was walking having a. cigarette and she was surprise attacked. by someone and then she was stabbed. right there and then drug out to where. she was found. So you'll see this like. dark line that is the blood trail path. And the interesting thing is they they. begin to speculate that her pants were. pulled down first before she was drugged. because of all that grass on her butt. I. don't know if that's true because I kind. of have all the questions about this. You'll see that there was this like what.

they're on the top what the drag marks. look like and I actually like I was. trying to figure out how drag marks. would look like this and I was literally. like dragging people these like poor. people who work at audio check like. dragging people through the hallway of. the office. >> because when you get drug your legs like. V outpart so these drag marks have the. feet together. >> which which makes sense if her pants are. pulled down. The thing that doesn't make. sense about this is everyone says that. that this is the drag mark and this is. the blood mark, but if you see the pink. line, like I I marked one pink and one.

blue. The blue is the drag mark. The. pink is the blood trail. And I'm like, in what world do they not like not line. up? >> They should be right on top of each. other. >> Exactly. Now, I've asked like all the. detectives I can about this, and the. best theory that they come up with is. like, "Oh, well, maybe there was two. people, and one was dragging her coat, and one was dragging her, but like her. coat's not the thing that's bleeding.". >> Also, her coat is on, her purse is still. over her shoulder. Her coat was never. off. >> And I don't know if this is all like a.

red herring, and everyone's trying to. explain it, but it it maybe means. nothing. The other thing I think is so. interesting is that her boots, in my. mind, don't show any sign that she was. drugged. Like I know it wasn't muddy or. anything, >> but there should still be like dirt and. dust and grass because there is debris. on her body like that, >> right? But there doesn't seem to be any. of that. So the question they have like. in this moment is like how did she get. to the middle of this field? >> And potentially more importantly, who.

wore Tom McCann dress shoes size eight. and a half or nine? because that is what. they determine was the shoe print, those. like critical shoe prints by that big. splash of blood. >> And the blood is from like active. bleeding, like the stab wound. It's not. from any of like the mutilation or. anything like that. >> No. So, what they end up finding is that. the autopsy showed that the mutilation. was done postmortem. And interestingly,

there was no sexual assault, but when. they did the autopsy, they saw. additional mutilation in her genitals. So, someone like took time and it wasn't. done by like animal predation or. anything like that. Like, it was. precise. It was done with what they. determined to be a small sharp. instrument, which is different than what. they determined she was stabbed with, cuz they determined she was stabbed with. like a 5 in serrated blade. >> So, that gives us two weapons. We've got. two weapons.

But the problem is they don't find any. weapons there at the scene in that. field. They also don't find her nipple. But that would be harder to spot. They. want to like have a search team look for. it. And they're like, "Don't worry, we. know exactly who we're going to call the. scouts.". >> Like children. And when I heard this, like when I heard. this for the first time, I was like,

"You mean to tell me. that I was out there selling [ __ ]. Thin Mints?". >> No shade to Thin Mints. We love Thin. Mints. >> I was selling Thin Mints and Samoas when. I could have been searching for body. parts. LIKE, WHERE WAS THAT BADGE? On my. honor, I will serve God in my country, obey all the crime junkie rules, not. contaminate evidence. >> That's That's the dream. Okay. So, new crime junkie life rule.

Always go a layer deeper because if I I. dug and I dug and I turned out it wasn't. Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts. It was. actually Explorer Scouts, >> also kids, >> which. >> still high school kids. And I'm going to give a quick PSA. I. don't know how familiar people are with. Explorer Scouts. Um, they have like. programs all across the country where. like high schoolers who want to be in. like the police force one day like can. go in and train, whatever. Um, I'm not.

saying don't do it. Ask some questions. though. >> But there will be a Crime Junkie episode. coming soon because the Explorer Scouts. is like rife with abuse. So if you're a. parent, >> get involved. get involved, stay. involved. And that's my quick PSA. So, kids are out there looking for. nipples, >> naturally, >> which by the way, they don't find. Police are out there looking for a per. And police decide like the best thing we. can do is like, we've got to retrace.

Peggy's last movement, and we have to. build some kind of timeline. We have to. learn about who she was. So, they decide. to start at her apartment. Now, at the. time, Peggy had a temporary roommate. And temporary is important because the. two were sharing a set of keys. And on. this night, when Peggy got off of work. at her job at the fashion bar, she. walked home and she was pounding on the. door cuz it was locked, trying to wake. up her temporary roommate, Sharon. Now,

Sharon, depending on what report you. read or Sharon's memory, she either like. was out still drinking and forgot she. was supposed to get home to let her in. or had been drinking too much and was. inside passed out. But either way, Peggy. is banging, banging, banging, like. cannot get Sharon to wake up. So, she. decides to make the best of like this. meh situation and kind of go bounce. around to a couple of bars, hang out. She has some drinks. She is using the. pay phone and constantly calling her. apartment. She wakes Sharon's ass up. By.

midnight, she goes back home again, banging on the door, but this time she. wakes Sharon up. And she goes inside, but she's not in for the evening. She. goes in to change out of her work. clothes and into jeans and a blouse. Jeans and a going out top for my. millennials. And she goes to this place. called the Prime Minister. And this bar. was a regular haunt for Peggy. So, it's. not surprising that she ran into someone. that she knew. It was her on-again, off-again, currently off boyfriend, Matt.

Zulmer. And Matt says that he was there. that night with another woman. It was. actually someone he had like just met. that night. Like they he's like her name. was maybe Shawn. And he said he talked. to Peggy for a little bit, like. everything seemed fine. He even had. offered her a ride home because she knew. he knew that she walked and she had. originally accepted. But Matt said that. he went to the bathroom and when he was. coming out, Peggy was leaving. And so he. figured like me, she doesn't need the. ride anymore. Matt stays till last call, stays with maybe Shawn. They end up.

going back to his place. And the. bartender at the bar confirms this. Peggy left on her on her own. Maybe. Shawn confirms that she went home with. Matt. And so this is the last time that. we have anyone seeing Peggy alive at. around 1:15 in the morning, leaving the. prime minister. Now, you'll notice that. the prime minister is like over here. Her house is over here. The field where. she's found in is kind of in between the. two. So, this is like playing into their. theory. >> that she was walking home. >> Exactly. That maybe she was walking home.

and got surprised by someone. So, they. really start thinking like they had done. an initial canvas of the area to see if. anyone had like seen or heard anything. No one had, but they're like who who. would be in this field in the early. morning hours? So, a detective, Linda, she decides that she wants to like kind. of just do some more canvasing. She. wants to go to some of the trailers. nearby. And she goes to the home of. Clyde Masters, one of the first doors. that she knocks on. And Clyde says the.

same thing. Didn't hear or see anything, >> but he says, "You know, now like, you. know, in the hindsight, like there was. something weird that morning. My son, I. live in this trailer with my son Tim. He's 15. He always walked through that. field to go to like his school or school. bus or whatever in the morning, like 7. o'clock in the morning. He's like on. that morning, I remember seeing him like. hesitate in the field. He didn't stop. for long. He didn't do anything. He. still made it to school on time, but. it's just weird. You might want to talk.

to him. And the officers are like in their head. they're like, "Okay, if he's going to. school at 7 o'clock in the morning, >> that's like the same time that. >> Woody Woody found and like. >> so he doesn't make sense. >> Why wouldn't you say something if you. saw someone in the middle of the field. like and we know she was there. Why. would you just go to school like nothing. happened unless you had something to do. with it?" So they go to Tim's school. They pull him out of class and before. they can say anything, he knows exactly.

why they're there. But he tells police. then what he would tell you today. So February 11th, 1987, I woke up at a. normal time. I think it was somewhere. around 6:00. Uh I remember I still remember my father. had fixed sausage and eggs for breakfast. that day. So I had sausage and eggs for. breakfast. took a shower, got dressed. I typically. wore a t-shirt, jeans, and a jean.

jacket, and uh about 6:55, I walked out the back. door to head through through the field. to go catch my bus. And I remember I. still remember to this day when I was. getting close. We had a little fence. halfway across the property line, like. not at the edge of my property, but. about halfway between the trailer and. the edge of the property. And I remember. seeing at that time of day, it looked. like there was trash out in the field. I. thought somebody had dumped some trash. out in the field. That's what it looked.

like. And I remember thinking, man, this. kind of crap never used to happen before. these roads went in. Now people are. dumping trash in the fields. And I. walked on and uh went through the fence. onto the field north of my house. And I remember. seeing it. It started to look more like. a a body out there. And I remember. seeing it looked like someone had spray. painted brown paint on the ground, reddish reddish brown paint, like a rust.

color along the field going out to it. And I remember walking my normal path. and then I veered veered over to go look. and see what the hell was in the field. And I I walked over towards it, stood. there, and looked at it. And to. 15-year-old me, I think I was in such a. state of shock that I couldn't believe. that was a body. I thought it was a. mannequin, specifically a recessa Annie. doll that someone had stolen from the.

school and dropped out in the field as a. prank. And I remember walking away. kind of confused about it, thinking, "No, there's no way it's a body. It's. somebody dropped a mannequin out there.". and I walked on, caught my spool bus, and I didn't say anything to anybody. about it. >> All right, it's the life rule number 10. tour for a reason. >> Say it with me. >> It's never a mannequin. >> But, okay, so there are a couple of.

things to remember here. First of all, this is happening in 1987. This is the. year before we were even born. >> So, there's no crime junkie. There's no. crime junkie life rules, >> right? Secondly, okay, so he thought it was a mannequin, but specifically he thought it was a. recessa Annie doll. Does anyone know. what a recessive Annie doll is? Is it. from my Instagram? Because. I didn't know what a recessive Annie. doll was. And so obviously I went and. bought one on eBay.

This is Annie. >> She's been hanging out with us at the. office. >> She's Yeah, she's been tormenting. everyone at the office. I'll like hide. them in like on like their desks. I'll. put them in their chair. She's great. So, the thing about this, you guys, is. that the recessive Annie doll, there is. this picture. I can tell you that it. actually did look like Peggy all day. till I'm blue in the face. But there is. this picture of Peggy's face when she. was found in the field. Again, she is.

completely white. Her mouth is open. Like, there's a sideby-side I have that. when I would tell like people working on. this show, I would say they looked a lot. alike. They're like, "Yeah, okay. It's. like it's a doll. It's still a doll.". And then I show them this picture and. literally. >> uncanny. >> They would like lose their breath. because her hair color is the same. Like. literally the cut is the same. Everything is exactly the same. So it is. not that wild if this if that was his. comparison. It's not that wild that he. thought he maybe saw a recesscent Annie.

doll in the field because one of the. things he says too is he never got right. up on it. He was always like 5 to seven. feet away. And the other thing you have. to remember is that like you heard a. grown man tell you that story in 1987. That grown man was a 15-year-old kid. And that 15-year-old kid is telling them. that he didn't do anything. He thought. it was a mannequin, but police do not. buy it. So they pull him out of class.

and they bring him in for questioning. And the whole time he is insistent that. he is innocent, but they give him a. polygraph and the polygraph says. otherwise, >> which there's another life rule there. all like never ever take a polygraph. >> No. And we have another life rule. You. guys know always get a lawyer. But Tim. said that he didn't know that he could. or should get a lawyer. If he didn't do. anything, why would he need a lawyer is.

his thinking. >> And so his dad was letting these. officers question this kid alone. And. while he's being questioned, the other. thing he didn't know is that they were. searching his trailer, specifically. paying attention to Tim's room. And. >> okay, can we stop for She's really. distracted. >> She is. You got to go just move her. >> Yeah. Here, just take her. Put her back. where we found her. Bye, Annie. She's traveling with us from city to. city. Like I'm honestly really Annie's.

not going to die after this show. She's. staying with me forever in the office. >> Annie is forever. Annie's Annie's. forever. So. they're doing the search of Tim's place. and they're finding stuff. They're. finding toy guns. They're paying. specific attention to this like knife. collection that he had, right? Like. they're still looking for a murder. weapon. >> They find a pair of pants that have a. spot of blood on them that they collect. And then they find something that they. truly believe is like super telling. The.

thing that they think shows that Tim is. this violent killer. They find his. drawings. Now, >> interesting response. I know it's not. that because. >> I saw these and I know I'm closer to. like having a middle schooler than being. in middle school, but I feel like it was. 5 minutes ago and I like can remember. the boys in my class making this [ __ ]. >> I will one up her all day. My son is in.

high school now, but he was in middle. school and like this isn't that weird. Like there's like. >> I don't love it. >> No, it's not great. But it's also like there's like little. military badges. There's also long. division in the middle of it. Like. that's like I was I literally like. pulled some. >> manifesto, >> right? Like I literally pulled some of. like doodles from like his old school. books and like literally was like on.

math homework. There was like a cat god. It was the whole thing. This it just. seems very benign for it to be like the. smoking gun in this case. But they do. they see this as their smoking gun in. this case and they're finding this stuff. as Tim is sitting through a 9hour. interrogation with multiple detectives. >> What you think about all this? What you. think about the people that tell me. what's going on in here all day since I. haven't been here? >> Well, they're pretty much sure that I.

did it. >> Why are they sure you did it? >> Cuz all the evidence points towards me, I guess. You have a lot of u pictures of. of killing women, don't you? Pictures. you've drawn. >> I do. >> Not just women, >> huh? >> Not just women. >> Not just women, but you do have pictures. of women being killed, don't you? >> Yeah, I guess I do some. >> But you know, you have all those knives. and stuff. Don't you do anything with. your knives anymore? >> I like to collect knives. >> And what else do you do with them?

>> You don't do much anything. >> You just collect them. I use them in a. real hiking stuff. >> What are you using for. >> like a cutting room stuff? >> I want to clear this up in your mind. >> It's important you tell the truth. >> I have told the truth. >> Can you dig what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> She has lost her life. She has no more. freedom. She can't do a thing. Her life has ended. You scared a lot of.

people. You scared me. I didn't sleep. last night. I slept about two hours. You. scared the hell out of me. Thank God we. found you. Half the detective. Half my people lost. all their sleep last night. We're trying. to find you. Now somehow like I have seen people. break in shorter times with people.

there. like he in 9 hours alone he never. breaks. >> A 15-year-old kid. >> 15-year-old kid. He never confesses. He. says that he is innocent and they don't. have anything. All they have at this. point are these drawings which they. can't arrest him for. So, they have to. let him go. But when they do, they leave. that 9-hour interrogation more convinced. than ever that he is their guy. Especially one detective named Jim. Brick. Jim is convinced because of three.

things really. Number one being the. drawings. The drawings is everything to. them. But number two, in his. interrogation, it somehow came up that. Tim knew about Peggy's nipple being. removed. Which if he thought it was a. mannequin, if he was 5 to seven feet. away, >> how could he have known that? >> How could he have known that? The other. thing is that they confirm that one of. the sets of prints, there were two sets. of prints in the field. One of the sets. of prints was Tim's. Now, it was not the.

critical set of prints by the blood. spatter on the curb. >> And this field is where Tim walks to. school every single day. >> And the closest it came was like 5 to 7. feet away, which he said, "I never got. close to the body." But his prince in. the field, they are convinced that he. did this. So, looking for something to. get this kid on, Jim Rodri calls the FBI. and asks them to do a profile. They send. him the drawings and the profiler is. like, I'm sorry, I don't see it. Like, I.

no, you can't say that this kid, there's. nothing else. You can't say this kid. murdered someone based on drawings. But. instead of taking that and being like, okay, what else have we got? Who else. should we look at? >> Jim decides to phone a friend. He's. going to do some profiler shopping. So, he calls somebody that he knows in. Washington and gets like an offthebooks. profile. And the guy he talks to says, "I don't know, man. Like maybe I have. like seen that a lot of times killers.

will position their victims so they can. like see them afterwards." And when they. look at where Peggy was in the field, like there was this direct line of sight. from Tim's trailer. So he's So Jim Brick. hears this and he's like, "Okay, this is. it. >> That's all I need to know. >> It is my job. nay, my duty to get Tim. Masters off the street. He is a. dangerous individual. So, they don't let. up. They keep pulling him out of class.

They're telling his teachers that he's a. dangerous murderer. Obviously, that's. not staying with just a teachers. Like, everyone in school knows what's going. on. Tim walks through the hallway and. like people will go to the other side of. the hall just not to be near him. And. it's coming at him from all angles, like. not just in school and through police, but every day for the first month, the. newspaper that's getting delivered to. his house has the front page story. saying that police have one suspect and. they're inching in on an arrest.

But again, Tim does not break. His story. never changes. And he has answers kind. of for everything they put forward. So. the prince in the field again, he's. like, "Yeah, those are mine. I told you. I was 5 to seven feet away. They're my. prince. The nipple thing. He's like, "No, I didn't see it. I knew her nipple. was removed.". >> Kids out in the field looking for. >> the girl in my art class told me cuz you. had kids in the field looking for a. nipple. So, of course, that got around.

They find out that the blood on his. pants was not Peggy's. It was actually. Tim's own blood. So, that's not even. like anything that proves anything. And. when they processed evidence in Peggy's. case, they found unknown fingerprints on. her purse and they found unknown hairs. on her, none of which belonged to Tim. So with all of that and with him not. breaking, they have no choice but to. cast a wider net. So they start looking. at other people but quickly, very.

quickly, ruling out everyone else. And. so the case also goes cold, very. quickly. Now, I haven't talked a ton yet about. what it was like for Peggy's family. And. it's I mean, it's like I feel like it's. you hear this all the time to say it was. devastating, but there was something. like extremely awful about the timing of. all of this. Like Colorado was just. supposed to be a stopover for Peggy. And. it's so interesting like when you start. looking at a case like this 2D image of.

someone that gets left behind because. when I first started and I hadn't talked. to Tom, I didn't know who Peggy Hetrick. was. All I had were a couple of. newspaper articles to like learn about. this woman. And I want to kind of give. you a taste on like on like what you. might see. So like if you could just. read one of the things that I gave you. >> Yeah. This was written in a newspaper. article about Peggy. The police identified her as Peggy. Hedrickk, 37, college dropout bar hopper. and aspiring writer who worked at the.

fashion bar, a nearby clothing store. Her friends privately worried something. horrible would happen to her given her. late night impulses, her jealousies, her. appetite for adventure. Sometimes she. would head out into the night just to. collect details for the book she was. writing or to spy on her boyfriend. And. that's like so different from the Peggy. that I've come to know through Tom. because this woman was amazing. she growing up. So she in college and.

after college had this boyfriend named. Frank who she was madly in love with. They were planning to get married and. have kids and they were planning this. big bright future which was going to be. incredible because she was brilliant. Peggy spoke four different languages. She traveled all over the world. Her and. her family had lived in different. countries. She was writing this book. that no matter how hard I try, like I. cannot even like wrap my head around it. It was about another country and money. and I don't know, she was just an. amazing woman. But things for her took a.

bit of a left turn. Like life didn't. turn out how she expected because Frank. died suddenly and unexpectedly. And then. a couple of years later, her mom passed. away. And it's not like anything went. bad for her. It's just like she had to. like reimagine what her life was going. to look like. And I think she felt kind. of a drift for a little while. And so. her and her dad and Tom, they moved. around a bit. They ended up on in Hawaii. for a little bit and got island fever. And when they moved back, Tom and his. dad went to Florida and Peggy went to.

Colorado because I think that that place. felt familiar. She'd lived there before. And none of this could happen at a like. a good time or an expected time or or. anything, but there's something about. the timing of this that feels extra. cruel because just two days before Peggy. was murdered. She called her dad and she. said, "You know, I had this dream that I. I moved back to I moved to Florida to be. with you guys and I was so happy and. like I think that's where I'm supposed. to be. Can I leave Colorado? Can I move.

to Florida and and be with you?" And her. dad's like, "Of course." like anywhere. we are, that is where your home is. So that was the plan, but she couldn't. just drop her stuff and go. Like that's. not real life. She had a lease. She had. a job. And so in two days, her family. instead of like planning her move or. planning to help her move, they had to. start planning her funeral. >> You feel like you've fallen into an.

abyss. One day you have sure footing and things. are stable and she's going to be down. there and and her friends down there. were going to find her a job to help her. find a job and she was going to live. with us and be a bright spot in the. house and we be a family to. an abyss like going into the ocean. you. can't breathe and you just sink a way.

far away. uh without stopping and so now your life. is changed forever. What do you do? You. know. um yeah hopes and desires are they go. out the window. Now you have to start a. new life and then after that you know my. dad started to get sick. Now I'm dealing. with my dad that is is dying because the. doctor pulled me in. He said, "Your dad. maybe has six months.".

And I just looked at I said, "What?". >> So Tom had to take care of his dad. They. also wanted to be close to the people. investigating Peggy's case. So they. moved back to Colorado, but the only. updates they were getting was like the. party line, like this is active and. ongoing. But that became harder and. harder to believe as the years went by. Especially when one day out of the blue, Tom gets this call from someone at the. police department and they're like, "Hey, we have a bunch of your sister's.

stuff if you want to come like get it.". >> Which the only stuff of Peggy's that. police would have is evidence, >> fully evidence. And they were like, "Do. you want it?" And he's like, "Well, yeah, anything of hers we'll come get.". So they go to the department. and they. go to this like rickety garage across. the street and the the woman like pulls. up the door and pulls out two bags like. a plastic two plastic bags that have two. paper bags inside and just like hands it. to him and he says they go home and. they're unwrapping this and they like.

pull out one thing and they realize I. mean it has blood spatter still on it. and they're like I don't think we should. have this. >> but nobody else seems to want it so they. like package it back up and put it away. just in case anyone ever comes looking. for it, but like who? Cuz nobody comes. around asking for it. And the only. updates that they're getting are really. from the media. So, it doesn't seem like. a lot is happening. And behind the. scenes, the only thing that's really.

happening is more of the same. Jim Brick. is still convinced that Tim Masters is. the one who did this. And in all that. time, Tim has just been busy growing up. And when he turned 18, he moved to the. into the Navy like his father. And he. was excited for this transition because. like this was going to be his fresh. start. He had spent all of high school. with people thinking he was a murderer. This is where he was going to go and be. unknown. And being unknown sounded. amazing to him. He was going to put his.

head down and work. And that's exactly. what he did day in and day out, month. after month, year after year, all the. way up until one day in 1992. I'm told to report to the master at arms. first thing in the morning the next day. Like, well, this is weird. I report to the master at arms master at. arms office the next day and uh the the. E4 that that's assigned to to escort me. somewhere is like, should I put him in. handcuffs? They're like, no, no, that's.

not necessary. And I'm going, what the. hell? Handcuffs? Uh he takes me over to the Navy. intelligence office in Philadelphia and. there I'm met by three detectives from. Fort Collins police. uh Hal Dean, Jim Brick and Linda Wheeler. and I I proceeded to endure about a day. and a half of interrogations. I didn't recognize them, right? I didn't. know Lind Linda Wheeler.

I didn't recognize him until so so Jim. Broadick had this habit of wearing like. reddish color deodorant and he had pit. stains and when I saw the pit stains I. recognized him and so I remember my. thought was what the hell I can't. believe five years later I'm still being. harassed over this I didn't have. anything to do with this. and then but I was still under the. mindset of uh especially.

I'm just an E4 in the Navy. I I really. respect I really treated authority with. respect and Lind Linda Holloway, well, she's Linda Willer at the time, Jim. Barrick, they were still authority. I. still treated with them with respect and. I kept telling myself, they're just. doing their job. After the interview. with with uh Linda Wheeler, I had put it. all behind me. I thought it was over and. I thought the four cones police knew I. didn't do it, so I didn't even think. about it. I want you to know that clip could have.

been shorter, but I needed you to hear. the deodorant thing. So, when the detectives left that. interview, there was three of them and. they're they were kind of split. So, like I don't know what Hal thought, but. I know Linda Wheeler left that interview. being like, I think we got it wrong. Like, I do not think that he is our guy. But Jim Brick left more convinced than. ever. He was on the right track and he. had to prove it. So he ends up, so that.

was in 1992. Fast forward to 1996, Jim ends up reopening the investigation. And within a couple of years, he finally. is like, "By golly, I have it. I have. what will take him down." And so one day. in August of 1998, Tim is out of the. Navy at this point. He's sitting at home. in his house in California, and he gets. this knock on the door, and he goes to. answer. Before he even gets to the door, he sees that it's open and there is a. police officer standing right there in.

front of him. >> And he said, "Are you Tim Masters?" I. said, "Yeah." He said, "You're under. arrest." I said, "What? What for?" And. he wouldn't tell me. And uh he. handcuffed me and as as he's taking me. out the door, Jim Brick meets me there. and he goes, "You're under arrest for. the murder of Peggy Hedrickk.". And I went, "We what the hell? You got. to be kidding me." It was a complete. shock. >> It was a complete shock to everyone.

because everyone's kind of like looking. around at each other like, "Wait, what. did we miss? What happened? What did. they find?" Even Tim is asking himself. that. And when he talks to his lawyer in. county lockup, the lawyer tells him. nothing. They have nothing new. They are. basing all of this on your drawings. And. so they're going to go to court with. those drawings and a star witness to. talk about those drawings.

>> Lieutenant Brick provided me with um. approximately 2,200 pages of drawings. and narratives produced by this young. man uh before and immediately after the. sexual homicide. This is a voluminous. amount of material. In my uh 18 years of. doing this kind of work, I have never. seen uh such voluminous productions by a. suspect in a sexual homicide. And that.

tells us that he was preoccupied with. sexual violence, with violence, with. sexually sadistic images, with images of. domination and degradation of women. And. he was also fascinated by knives. After. spending 6 months on the case, I felt I. understood the motivations for this. homicide and that I had become convinced. uh that Timothy Masters was the. individual that had committed uh this.

homicide. >> Okay. So, Dr. Reed Malloy after having. never spoken with Tim decides that he. killed Peggy and it was a case of. mattress, which. >> that's if Okay. That's like killing your. mom. Yes. So, yes, he basically was. saying like Peggy was a substitute for. Tim's mom. >> Did Tim even hate his mom? >> No, he loved his mom. And we haven't. talked about Tim's mom because she. wasn't in the picture because for years,

actually, almost to the day before Peggy. died, his mom passed away. And it was. like super tragic. She got sick. They. thought she had the flu. And so, one day. she leaves their trailer. His dad was. going to just take her to the hospital. He was expecting to see her the next day. and she just never came home again. And. it was a huge a hugely informative like. like a moment for Tim. He loved his mom. I mean, he missed her so much. And so. the theory kind of became that like.

around the anniversary of his mom's. death, he's like mad at his mom for. dying, for not being there. He's out in. the field in the middle of the night and. he sees Peggy and he sees Peggy's red. hair and it reminds him of his mom's red. hair and in that moment he had to kill. her because he was trying to kill his. mom. >> I have seen these two pictures next to. each other a lot. Um, his mom does not. have red hair. >> British doesn't even have red hair.

>> at all. >> At all. But nobody cares. This is what. they go to trial with. this and the. drawings and the defense, they only have. one witness come to the stand and it's. someone to refute all this stuff about. the drawings. >> cuz there's nothing else to refute, right? >> It's not like they did a bad job. It's. like all that's all they had there. There was no case there. He should not. be like I mean it feels like everyone. sees like where this is going.

>> As I was standing as I was standing. there, I was thinking I'm going home. I'll be going home after today. Uh. yeah. And then the the jury came out and I. kind of knew something was off. They. would none of the jury would make eye. contact with me. I'm like, "Oh god." And. then the judge asked, "Have you reached. reached a verdict?" And the the four. person on the jury says, "We have." And. they hand it to the judge and the judge.

reads it. Tim Masters, you have been. found guilty. And so the media at the. time described me as being completely. emotionless as the verdict is read. It. it it wasn't a lack of emotion. It was. complete shock. Like, oh my god, I can't believe this. I. just got convicted of murder. And that they cuffed me. They took me to. the county jail. And now I know I'm. going to prison. So the judge sentenced me to life in.

prison with possibility of parole after. 40 years. Oh, it was awful. It's like a world ending event. Like. your life is over. >> Over the past year, we have covered more. potential and confirmed like wrongful. convictions than I think ever before. And we've been really fortunate to be a. part of some amazing things like like. James Rayos being exonerated. We just. gave a million dollars to the Indiana to. for them to start their own branch of.

the Innocence Project because this stuff. is happening all Well, no, I appreciate. it. It's because of you guys. It's. because of you guys. So, you guys did it. as well and I'm so freaking grateful. because this stuff is happening all the. freaking time. And. >> like it's obvious here, but it's not. always as obvious. It's not always like. this glaring. But we have to be paying attention and. we have to be the ones to fix it. And. it's not just me and Brit here on the. stage. Like you guys are the jury. You. guys are the voters and we have to do.

something. And I know it can feel so. insurmountable. Like the world is. batshit crazy right now. But you have to. like it. You have to take one step at a. time. You have to care about one thing. And what is the one thing you can do? Like I Brit and I were nobody before. this. you guys like it takes one step. Do the thing that you care about and. take the one step. >> And in this situation, like, okay, what's the thing? Like, how do you break. it down? >> The the real questions are, okay, it's.

Tim Master's wrongful conviction and. then the question of who really killed. Peggy Hedrickk, but you got to figure. out Tim's wrongful conviction first. That's the first step. And in this like weird twist you don't. see a lot, even Peggy's family wasn't. convinced. Like they left the trial. being like okay like we get he's. convicted. We don't see why though. Like. even they were like what what they. presented in court. >> is just drawings. >> It didn't make sense. But Tom would say.

he told us he's like you know what we. thought we had this thought that like. well there must be something else. Like. maybe it didn't make it to trial. It. like got excluded. All these weird. things happened in court. But they. wouldn't have arrested him just based on. that. They wouldn't have take like put. him on trial for that. Like they. wouldn't have convicted him. there must. be something we don't know. We've said. it in episodes before like there must be. sometimes there's not there's nothing. and it's just freaking wrong. But. everyone was out there telling. themselves like there must just be. something we don't know. So Tim gets.

taken away. He is put in the Buenav. Vista Correctional Complex known as. Buenny if you know you know. >> And so he is there every day waking up. in a cage for something that he didn't. do. He is working out. He's taking. classes. He's working a job. All while. his defense team is filing appeal after. appeal after appeal. But Tim is getting. less and less optimistic. Like you have. to stop believing the system when you're.

in his position and then when the court. of appeals denies you and then when the. Supreme Court of Colorado denies you. >> And like these appeals, we talk about. them all the time when when cases go. this way and there are appeals being. filed and appeals being filed. This is. not just something that happens. This is. expensive. It costs so much money to. fight for your life like this, >> right? Which is why he ends up he ends. up like not having lawyers at some point. and having to do a lot of the appeals. himself, which makes him even less. >> how to have hope at that point. If the.

lawyers are getting denied, you're now. your own lawyer, >> right? Because he's learning how to be a. lawyer like in prison while he's also. trying to learn how to use Microsoft. Word to write the appeals. like he. there's no way he thinks this is going. to turn out good for himself. And so as. his like view of the world is changing. and his life has completely changed, it's not just him. Like other people's. outlooks and lives were changing as. well, including Linda Wheeler. So, she. was one of the detectives on the case. and she saw how he just got railroaded.

and she couldn't believe that the system. not only allowed this to happen in the. first place, but then as she watched all. of his appeals get denied and the system. that is supposed to like be these checks. and balances to fix mistakes, >> letting it keep happening, >> she got so discouraged that she quit the. force because she is like, "What am I. going to do?" Like I'm just one person. I can't help. I can't do anything. What? Like what is one person gonna do when.

the entire system is so broken? So she. left. But it is just one person who. changes everything in this case. And. it's not someone with a badge, an FBI. agent, a scientist, a lawyer. It is a. CPA named Taylor Maris in a cut off. I. love this picture. >> I love Taylor Maris. Taylor Maris was a. crime junkie before there was crime. junkies. Taylor Maris is at home one day.

watching a true crime show and it is. about Tim's case and he's watching it. And by the way, they're not like. questioning if Tim is innocent. This is. basically like Jim Brick's power hour, his victory lapping like high five to. me. >> Look what we did. And so he's watching. this and he's like he's he's like I keep. waiting for the thing like the thing. that proves he did it. >> because it's got to be more than these. drawings. >> And and even he's like I made those. drawings when I was young and like I. didn't kill anyone. So he waits and he.

waits and he waits and then the show. ends. and he's like oh no. Someone should do something about that. I should do something about that. And so. he takes the first step. It's a small. step. He writes to Tim in prison and. he's like, "What can I do?" Like, "I see. it. How can I help you?" And Tim says, "I don't know, but if anyone can help, you need to get in touch with Linda. Wheeler. She'll know what to do.".

>> He said, "You know, you don't know me, but do you remember Tim Masters?" I. said, "Sure." He goes, "Well, do you. think he's possibly innocent?" And I. said, "Yeah, I really do, but what can I. do? You know, I'm done. I'm not even a. cop anymore." And he said, "I uh well,". he said, "I I talked with him. I or I. just communicated with him by uh a. letter." And he said, "I bought all the. transcripts of the trial, $900 worth.". But he said, "They don't mean anything. to me cuz I don't read legal ease." He. said, "Can I send them to you?" And for.

the first time, I sat there and read. what happened at the trial. And I was. infuriated because I knew this case and. I knew the jury had not heard the truth. And at that point I went, "Okay." So I. contacted um uh Maria Lou, who was Tim's. attorney, and uh I said, "You want my. help?" They said, "Yeah." I said, "Okay." But I know what I had to do is I. had to put back on a badge cuz I knew I. wouldn't have any credibility as a.

civilian, >> as you can imagine. Wait, wait, wait, wait, I just take a moment to. acknowledge that buying $900. worth of court transcripts, not knowing. how to even read what's in there, >> some real Ashley Flower [ __ ] folks. >> I I was going to say like I would have, but I'm sure I've done I've done it. >> I've done it, man. Like someone's got. to. So, as you can imagine, Fort Collins PD.

isn't like welcoming Linda back with. open arms. She's basically trying to. upend a case that they think is over and. done with and is a win for them. Do I. list it? I feel like I do. >> A little bit on like this one. Yeah, >> good. >> Perfect. >> Thanks. You guys got to let me know. >> It's been like all night, guys. >> So, Linda decides she's going to work. for the DA's office. And the DA. basically she has this understanding. that she part-time is going to work on.

Tim's case. And when she thinks about. what's going to make a difference in. Tim's case, she's thinking about, you. know, this is decades on now, DNA. Like. this is going to be the thing. And she. remembers meeting a woman at this like. conference a while back named Selma. And. Selma and her husband Richard have this. independent lab out in Holland where. they do all this testing. >> And independent is super key here. >> Oh, they trust nobody. >> We don't trust anybody here. >> No. So she's like, "Okay." And I think they. end up getting back like that evidence. that Tom had, like, "Thank God somebody.

saved it." And they're like, "Okay, we. need to do some testing." The problem. is, and like part of what what I think. is broken in our system is they can't go. and just test stuff. >> because the prosecution owns the. evidence against you. >> So you have to like ask permission from. the people that put you away if you can. test the evidence. Now, the saving grace. here is that by this point, Fort Collins. PD has recused themselves. Lammer. County, who is like the district. attorney's office, has recused.

themselves. So, it's going to a DA that. is neutral, hopefully, who they're. hoping doesn't have a dog in the fight. other than wanting the truth to come. out. So, Selma and Richard come to the. US and they do this like 4hour. presentation for the new the DA here, Don Quick. And after 4 hours, Don's. like, "Yes, love you. Love your lab. Love what you're doing. Go Justice. Let's send this [ __ ] off and see what's. up.". Well, isn't it convenient that right when they.

get permission to do this, a bunch of. evidence gets destroyed? Mhm. So, luckily they have a couple of things. left that they do send off, but this. makes them more convinced than ever that. Lamur County, that Fort Collins PD is. hiding something. >> And the more they dig, the more stuff. they find. And they end up filing this. appeal for a new trial based on the fact.

that they believe Tim's rights were. violated. And it's really based on like. four points. So, one is they say that. crucial evidence was withheld from his. defense team early on. His defense team. never knew about the crucial set of. prints. They didn't know there was. another set of prints in that field, the. dress shoes, the Tom Macccan dress. shoes. >> They didn't know about that. >> They also didn't know about the FBI. profile, the original one that was done. that said, "No, this is not it." Like,

that got hidden and destroyed. So, they. didn't have that to work with when they. went to to trial. The second thing, we've got that whole like DNA. destruction thing that just happened. The third, even before that, there was. some skin cell DNA that had been. mishandled by the lab. So, we can't even. use that. And then fourth, they say that. the team, the investigative team. did not look into viable suspects. Now, they did not pick Tim Masters out of. like a void of suspects because there. was nothing else. there were actually.

much more viable suspects which we're. going to get into, but they never looked. into them properly and they never told. the defense team about them. So, those. are the main four points, but then they. also found all this other really shady. stuff. Like, do you remember how the. first like month after this happened, every day the newspaper showed up at Tim. Master's house and the front page was. about them honing in on their one guy. So every day for a month, the Fort. Collins PD made a fake front page of a.

newspaper and delivered it to his front. door, hoping that it would make him. crack. >> Literal fake news. >> And they were taking his mom's obituary. and they were putting it in envelopes. and like leaving it around for him to. find just to like psychologically. torture this kid. And so even that. wasn't doing anything. So, come the. one-year anniversary of Peggy's murder, they plan this like weird.

operation, and like I I don't even want. to call it an operation. It's like. reminds me of something me like or my. husband and his friends would do like on. video games at 11:00 at night where. basically like the big scheme. >> Yeah. The little paper trail of this. that's left is basically like Colorado. authorities contacted the FBI and. they're like, "Listen, we can't like we. need to prove that this guy is. dangerous. He hasn't done anything to. help us. So, we should like push him to. do something. >> We should make him do something violent. cuz he is violent. >> So, we're going to keep like putting him.

in in scenarios to like push him to do. something violent. But, if he goes too. far, we all have to pretend it wasn't. us. >> Because if he's as violent as we think. he is, I mean, he's capable of killing. somebody. And if he kills someone again, we didn't make him do it. >> And the FBI's like, "Got it.". And they're also like, "But also, if he. does nothing and we look like idiots, we. can't say anything." And the FB is like, "Got it.". And of course, he did nothing. Like, and. so that's why nobody found out about. this, but this is the stuff that they.

were finding out they were doing in the. background. So, they file all of this, they send off the DNA, and even now Tim is not optimistic. Why would he be? There's very little. that has gone right. and even when it's. like glaring and in your face, he. doesn't think it's going to go his way. >> So, I'm in the unit. All of a sudden, the whole facility locks down for some. reason. And they lock down a lot. You.

just assume a fight broke out somewhere. Somebody got hurt, whatever. So, I'm. sitting in my cell and my case manager. comes up while everybody's locked down. and he says, "Tim, your lawyer just. called. She wants you to call her back.". I'm like, "Okay, I'm locked down. What. am I going to do?" He says, "I'll try. and get you out here in a minute." He. So, he goes down. Then he comes back a. little bit later. They take me out or. no, he goes back down to talk about it. And then the news comes on and there's.

an announcement from the special. prosecutors in my case. And they. announce that uh they're going to. dismiss the case against me and I'll be. released on a PR bond. And I'm like, and. everybody in the unit was cheering. Yeah, you're going home, masters. You're. out of here. I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm going to talk to the. lawyer later today. We'll find out for. sure. Cuz at this point, I'm so. pessimistic. I don't even believe what I. just saw on the news. And then I go to I go down to the case. manager's office. He calls my lawyer, Maria Lou, and she says, "You're out of.

there. They're letting you go.". So, ironically, I made it. I wasn't in. prison for quite 10 years, but I was in. there almost 10 years. And uh oh man, it. was it was weird. They they had uh my. lawyers bought me a suit out of their. own pocket and uh I got to wear a suit. They talked the sheriff into letting.

letting them release me from the. courthouse rather than coming back to. the county jail to be processed. So I went in there and they released me. out of the courthouse. That never. happens in Colorado. if you get. released, you got to go back to the. county jail and wait around while they. process you. And they they let them. release me from the courthouse. My entire family was there. My family. was so big that they they couldn't fit. in the courtroom and the courtroom was. packed anyway with people. So, they had. my family go back in the judges. chambers. And when the hearing started.

to release me, all my family started. walking out and there was my sister. I. almost broke out in tears when I saw my. sister. It was a good day. Yay. Justice. That day was January 22nd, 2008. So, they released him. They. dropped the charges, but crime junkies. will know that doesn't mean he is.

considered an innocent man. They have. the option to refile if they want to, but DNA tests come back and they can't. tie anything forensically. They do have. like partial profiles, they can't tie. any of it to Tim. So eventually he ends. up being exonerated, fully exonerated in. 2011. And he ended up and he ended up suing. some of the people who put him there. So. hell yeah. >> Much bigger cheer for that.

Well, hang on. >> So, >> it's like goodish news. >> So, he sues Jim Brick, uh Jolene Blair, and Terry Gilmore. Those are the two DAs. who, by the way, by the time he is out. and filing these suits, are now judges. >> Yes, >> he ends up suing them. He does end up, and there were other people like he sued. the city and there were a whole list of. people. He ends up winning a $10 million. judgment, which was great for Tim.

Jim Brick, I know you guys were worried. about him. I could tell. He got put on. paid leave and then resigned. And though. multiple grand juries indicted him, nothing ever stuck. >> Yeah. Charges were dismissed. Jolene and Terry, this was at least. happening kind of around election year. They didn't win re-election for judges. or what? Judge ship, whatever it's. called. Um, but that's it.

>> No slap on the wrist. >> No slap on the wrist. No punishment. whatsoever. Nobody lost their license. Nobody faced any charges for what was. done to Tim. And even more interesting. to me, nobody was looking to say, "Okay, this happened to Tim Masters." When it. was so obvious it was based on drawings. >> out there. No one was like, "I wonder if. this happened to someone else.". >> To someone else. Nobody was asking those. questions. Now, we reached out to Jim.

and Jolene and Terry. Obviously, no one. wanted to talk to us. And this is just a. fun fact that means nothing, but I had. to share it. When we I like, you know, you got to like find contact info for. these people. So, we had look them up on. Facebook. Guess who's dating and went to. Italy? Again, I like I don't know why. >> nothing to do with anything, but it. means nothing. >> We know it. We want to share it with. you. >> So, after Tim settles his lawsuit,

he asks the court that all the records. be sealed because just like he did when. he went to the Navy, he just wants to. start over and he's like, I don't want. this coming up again. I like I just want. I just want to live my life and I don't. want this to be the thing that defines. me. which made it real hard for us to. get the records. >> Bad news for us. >> But we did find a source who got us a. good number of the records. And in those. records, there were some really viable.

suspects that were not him. Starting. with the on-again, off-again boyfriend, Matt Zner, who in this picture is 37, but at the time of Peggy's murder, he. was 29. Now, you know, everyone's got. their favorite person of interest. And. for Linda Wheeler, Matt is hers. Now, Ray Martinez says everyone was kind. of quick to write Matt off in the early.

days. And I think it was probably. because he seemed really devastated, genuinely upset. His reaction seemed. like what they should have been. And. like they kind of were like, "Oh, he had. an alibi. Remember maybe Shawn from the. bar? She was with him all night.". >> And she left the bar with him. >> Well, kind of. >> She did leave the bar with him. And she. her story has always been that she was. at his house till like 3:00, give or. take. Well, when you look at the time of. death for Peggy, like on face value,

they say it was between 1:00 a.m. and. 3:00 a.m., which that would give him an. alibi. Now, if you look at the records, you'll see there's this like grid where. they basically use I don't know like the. averages to get to one to three, but. really the full window is one to five, which leaves two hours that Matt does. not have an alibi, which I think is. really interesting. >> because there's something I haven't told. you yet. I have a little secret up my. sleeve.

In Peggy's purse, the one found over her. shoulder when she's down in that field, there was a note written to Matt. Go ahead, Matt. I need your help. Sharon has got. my keys and isn't home. No answer. If I. have to knock on your door at 2, please. don't be a grump. I don't want to spend. the night sleeping in the hall. Peg. But. this is in her purse. So the question is. like why does she still have this note.

to Matt? >> And did Matt see it? >> Right. >> Can't tell you because it seems like. police never even asked him. >> Now there seems to be like the best. theory that people can come up with. So. this is where Matt lived, he lived even. closer to the prime minister than Peggy. did. And so you know the question is. like, okay, did she when she's locked. out, it seems like that's when she wrote. the note. Did she go leave it on his. door? And then when she was able to get. into her place, did she go get the note. and she's like, I don't need a place to. stay anymore. Or did she like not even.

make it to his place, but realize she. could get back into hers and then it's. just kind of like a moo point and it's. like living in her purse. No big deal. >> But they never ask Matt about this note. >> No, they never ask him if he or at least. based on the records I have, they never. ask him if he saw this, which to me. would be kind of critical because it's. like seeing her or this note is like. never part of his story that we have. So, we've got Matt's story, right? Like. he sees her, they talked for a little. bit, he's with maybe Shawn, they end up. leaving together. Peggy leaves alone at.

1:15. He does tell police. There is this. like one thing that Peggy mentioned that. might be significant. He said, "Oh, well, Peggy mentioned, by the way, that. she had a new boyfriend, which I could. be like I could see in a couple ways. Like, yes, she's actually seeing someone. or she sees her on again off-again guy. with another girl and is like, "Oh, you're with someone. I'm also newly in. love. He's way hotter than you. Super. tall, super sweet. Don't even worry. about me. And like you have fun with.

like maybe Sean, >> right? And I think it could be maybe. Sean. I think it could be like TBD. I. think there might have been someone she. was saying, but it's important to know. that Matt was the guy that she always. went back to. Like this this saga. between them had been going on for a. very long time. And I know that even. earlier in that very week that she was. killed, like the two had dinner. together. So like this is very much off, but like only in the way that they were. off. And also police never seemed to. even ask him about this dinner or what. happened or were they talking about. getting back together or anything?

>> Did they check his alibi with maybe. Shawn? >> So they did. They checked that he was. with maybe Shawn. We also checked and we also found out. maybe Shawn is actually Dawn, >> which is like kind of close. >> It was It's close, Matt. >> So close. >> So, we found Dawn all these years later, and her story is really interesting, and. you know, and we were able to even find. her statement from back in the day, too. And and it it's all corroborated by what. she was saying back in the day. And but.

it adds a little bit more color. So, she. said that she ran into Matt at another. bar earlier in the night and he had like. sold her a car. He's a car salesman. And. so, he had sold her a car. This I mean, this guy, that's what I'm saying. Like, he I think he he was a smooth talker. with police. So, he sold her a car, sees. her, like recognizes her like, "Hey, if. when you get in with your friend, you. should come over to the prime minister.". And she goes there, he's already there. He is at the bar talking to who she now. realizes was Peggy, but she didn't know.

at the time. And she says she waits for. like five minutes just to see if he's. going to like wrap it up or like what's. going on. And finally she walks over and. as she approaches Peggy like turns and. talks to some guy next to her. So she. kind of thought Peggy was with that guy. Matt doesn't even introduce her. He's. just like go get a table. So she goes. and gets a table for four thinking this. woman and this guy are going to join. them. They never do. But she says like. the whole time Matt's just kind of like. eyeballing. He she doesn't know the. history there but he seems to like kind. of being like paying attention to Peggy, >> but like nothing weird, whatever. And.

she says that he ends up like like the. whole story goes the same. They end up. staying till last call. Peggy leaves on. her own. She does go back to his place. She stays till like 3 give or take. And. >> which is great if Peggy is killed. >> after like a three window. >> It doesn't even like wrap for any weird. reason. She's like, you know, he's like. hinting he has to work in the morning. Like I can take the hint. He also says. that he like hates kids. Not like kind. of, but like hates kids. And she's like, well, I have one of those. So, like I.

don't think this is going anywhere. So, she ends up leaving. But when we talked to her today, she. said there was something about his. apartment that she always found so weird. that like still stands out to her to. this day. And she's like his apartment. was pristine. Like not just clean, but like there. there wasn't like a fork to be found in. the sink. There weren't clothes on the. floor. There weren't like things in the. bathroom. It was like model apartments.

>> Yeah. She's like. >> unlived in clean. >> Yeah. It doesn't seem like someone lived. there. And she's like, I always thought. that was weird. But then a few years. later, someone had come back around. asking some questions and they were. asking specific questions about Matt's. apartment. And they started showing her. pictures of his apartment. And she said. she has this moment where it's like full. body chills because she's like. that's not the apartment.

I that I don't she's like yes it's the. same layout but she's like I don't. remember any of that stuff. >> like someone lives in this place and. that's not how Matt's apartment. And the. specific questions they were asking her. about were they were like, "Did you see. the broken table?" And did you see those. like spots on the floor and under the. sink? >> Which when I look at these pictures, I'm. like, "What broken table?" But there's.

the leg is broken on the coffee table, >> right? The first time I heard it, I was. imagining this like shattered table. >> It this is like could it's like a It's. like a boy fixed it and who a. 29-year-old boy who like lives in an. apartment and he was like, I'll just. this will do. And so, and this they they. never like, as far as I can tell, get. this tested. I don't know what this is. that they're talking about. But she. obviously says, "No, I didn't remember. this." But she's like, "I don't remember. the apartment looking like this at all.". >> Of course. But like is that like the.

implication is like it happened after. she left then? >> Yes. So that I think that's what they. were trying to like get to was did the. table break and these spots come after. you were there? Was there some kind of. altercation that happened in the. apartment? And there's this other like. really interesting thing that I haven't. gotten to yet because like. you have to wonder with with you know. maybe Sean we know is Dawn. Is it is it. that this isn't the same apartment? Is.

it that it was is it memory? >> Yeah. Like I mean it was super late in. the night. They've been drinking. >> Well and we know that like human memory. is super super flawed. Like there's a. ton of statistics on it and I won't bore. you with all of them, but one. specifically from the Innocence Project. is like something like 70% of wrongful. convictions are because of witness. misidentification, misremembering. And. like like you said, it's late at night. We know they've been drinking. Um.

there's there's a million things that. could go like in a perfect circumstance, >> human memory is flawed. And this is not. a perfect circumstance. I don't want to. discount anything. It takes me more to. get on the husband boyfriend did a. train. Hang on. >> Okay. So the when they went and talked. to Matt like early on like first like. day or two they searched his car and in. his car they said they found sping wet. clothes and shoes. Not like damp. They. literally say in the reports that it was.

like someone swam in these things. And. they also find sping wet clothes in his. apartment. So they collect all of it. But then Matt a couple of days later is. like hey would love my stuff back and. they say sure no problem sorry we didn't. like dry and fold for you and they just. give it back to him without ever testing. it because they have by that point Tim. masters square in their sights. >> and he's drawing. >> god forbid. and the other thing that I think is so.

interesting that was at Matt's apartment. is outside they found a bunch of. footprints that match the shoes Peggy. was wearing along with like 11 cigarette. butts of the brand that she was known to. smoke. >> Which when I think of the shoe prints, I'm like, well, she has this note, right? Like she maybe dropped it off and. then came back for it. She started. there. She didn't drop it off. She could. have been there. >> But the cigarette butts, like. >> that's a lot of them. >> So they people started to wonder like.

was she there waiting? And when they. were talking to Peggy's friends, they. said, you know, she could be jealous. And like, we could see a world where she. saw Matt with this other woman and she. thought like, okay, I'm going to go to. his apartment and see if they go home. together or I'm going to go and see if. she stays the whole night or leaves or. whatever. But then you have to wonder, so, okay, so if that's what happened, then was. there some kind of altercation in his. apartment? And that doesn't fit with.

anything we have or know at the scene. >> The theory is that the attack happens. next to the field. She gets drugged out. of the field. The blood is in like in. the field. Next to the field, >> right? And nothing. And again, we've got. this like weird stuff at his apartment, but like why would he go then take her. to the field or like if he was giving. her a ride home, why stop at the field? Like there's so much about this that. like doesn't. >> the attack can't happen in both places, but they're also saying maybe it did, >> right? And there is no part of Matt's. story ever that has him and Peggy even.

seeing each other at his place. >> Well, and my question kind of goes back. to it goes to like does Matt have a. history of violence, violence against. women, violence against Peggy? They've. been in relationships before. >> No. So, he has like he doesn't have. anything violent on his record. He has. like some DUIs, but like nobody. described their relationship as. volatile. Nobody has come forward and. said that he has done anything to anyone. since. So like again I go back to like. what would the motive be like if he did.

something it had to have been like a. heat of the moment thing but then that. would happen I think at his apartment. not while she's like walking home or. >> right. >> it doesn't it does not add up. completely. >> I think the biggest question is. does he have the Tom Macccan dress. shoes? >> He does not. And he's not a guy who. would like wear Toman dress shoes. And I. I looked up and down. I tried so hard, of course Matt didn't want to talk to us. either, to find out even just what size. shoe he wore. There was some pictures in. the file of these boots. I think it was.

because of like how they were placed by. his couch that stood out to detectives, but like I get the sense that like these. these were the nice shoes. >> These were his fancy shoes. So these. boots too were also the one that Dawn. said he was wearing that night and they. don't match any of the prints out in the. field. So maybe for all of those reasons they. end up not looking at Matt even though. he failed a polygraph just like Tim and. he failed the question do you know who.

killed Peggy Hetrick. >> kind of the big question you know. >> but the poligrapher said he's quote. probably telling the truth. so that's Matt Zolar. the next person we found is Donnie Long. Now, shortly after Peggy is murdered, there is another woman who is murdered. named Linda Hold. She's 39 years old. She is stabbed nine times. She's bound,

gagged, and tied to a tree. She, like. Peggy, is not sexually assaulted, but. there also is no mutilation in her case. And then shortly after that, 30-year-old. Mona Hughes is murdered. And we tried up. and down and tried contacting family. We. could not find a picture of her. But she. was stabbed 14 times. Again, no sexual. assault, no mutilation. And pretty quickly, police had decided.

that none of this was connected to Peggy. because they thought the MMO was just. too different. And eventually, they end. up connecting Linda and Mona's case to. Donnie Long. And Donnie Long ends up. confessing to murdering Mona and Linda. And they at least do the bare minimum. and they like circle back and they say. like, "Hey, what about Peggy?" And he. says, "Nope." And they say, "Okay, thank. you.". >> Which this is not the first time we've.

seen this happen. And it never fails to. just be like, "What?" You guys, I'm. literally working on a case right now in. Washington that I'm not saying it was. Israel Keys, but like. >> we're not saying it wasn't Israel. >> a lot of things. And I had a call with. the FBI and I was like here are the 20. things I think are like I don't know. Like I just want to know if you've. looked at it, >> but don't worry. They said it can't be. him. He told us it was only four victims. and this would have been five.

>> That's literally what they said. They're. like Keys, not a good dude. We're taking. his word for it. >> Yeah. So, like I don't know. It It just. seems strange to me. But they say not. Donnie Long. So, we we don't look at him. either. Which brings me to my favorite. part. So, Ray Martinez, his. >> I'm going in and out. I'm Are you me? Right when this is getting good. You. guys don't do this part. Don't do this. to me.

>> Okay. >> Ray Martinez. This is his favorite. person of interest and this is someone I. have become deeply obsessed with. Whether he had something to do with. Peggy Hedrickk or not, there is. something here and I will not stop until. I find it. So, I'm talking about local. opthalmologist. Dr. Richard Hammond, who many people. refer to as handsome, and I don't see. it.

So, >> we also know a lot about him at this. point. So, >> Dr. Hammond, he was uh like looked at like when they. did the neighborhood canvas like early. on like they talked to him, him and his. wife, he didn't see anything. He's not. raising any red flags in 1987. He's an. opthalmologist, a family man, except for. the one red flag that supposedly was. raised about Tim because he too had a.

direct view of where Peggy was found. from his primary bedroom window. And by. the way, he was like didn't sleep at. night, >> but he wasn't doodling. >> So So no red flags. >> So no one worry about him. Yeah. So they. they they came across him during the. initial canvas. Him and his wife are. like, "Nope, didn't see anything. Didn't. hear anything. Thank you very much. Goodbye." Well, fast forward to March of. 1995. and some really big red flags start.

getting raised because there is this. woman who Colorado State University had. like a job board, which is like digital. now, but back then was like straight up. note cards on an actual board. and she. picks up this note card for housesitting. and it's for Dr. Richard Hammond and his. family. They're going out of town. She. and a friend are going to stay at their. place and housesit. She doesn't know the. guy. They show her around. They give her. the basement like free reign. Here's. where you sleep. There's a bathroom down. here, but make yourself at home. throughout the whole house.

So, she's in the basement and she. notices. that she keeps like hearing this weird. sound in the bathroom. and she like doesn't know quite what it. is. And I think that if she were by. herself or if I were by myself, I'd. probably be like, "Weird. I'm gonna use. the bathroom upstairs." But she had her. friend with her, >> her crime junkie BFF. and have Ashley. had me with her.

>> And so they're like, "We're going to get. to the bottom of this." Like, "What else. do we have going on?". >> Full Nancy Drew. >> So they're like looking around, looking. around. They realize it's like every. time they turn on the light, they hear. this weird noise. And so they get a. flashlight and they realize that there. are cameras. in the vents, >> plural, >> plural, >> cameras. And they realize that like. these cameras are set up from an. adjoining room. And so they go to the. room next door and they realize that. like the knob is locked. So again, you.

got your crime junkie BFF. >> Never picked a lock in my life, but I'm. about to learn. >> I'm about to find out right now. So I'm. sure they're getting like again like. what am I I'm going to get like all like. the paper clips or like the whatever. I'm going to figure this out. So they go. and like God is on their side because. they go to like start figuring out how. to pick a lock for the first time and. they realize that the door hadn't. completely latched. So all they have to. do is like push it open and it pushes. open and there is this video equipment.

There are these filing cabinets with. quote an uncountable amount of. videotapes. So she well not woo you don't know. what's on these. Hang on. She calls a friend because she's like. okay like I'm let me try to like explain. this for a minute. This is there's this. can't be this. So they she calls this. friend she has who used to work at the. police department who knows a lot about. it like video stuff. This is like very. 1995.

And he comes over and he looks at the. room and he's like, "Nope, >> bad news. >> We got to call the real cops.". So the real cops come and they find. hundreds of tapes and they find this. like index that he has of like ages, names, dates. Is it a shower shot? Is it. a toilet shot? These toilet shots are. not just like someone going they they. are close up on genitals which brings us.

to Peggy Hetrick because she had genital. mutilation. >> and she had a a nipple which they said. was surgically removed with surgical. precision and then you have this. opthalmologist. starting to get a little weird and. luckily this is all happening in the. same area. And so the person who gets. called to this new scene is Ray. Martinez. And when Ry gets this call to. show up at this like house where this is. going on, he's like, "Hammond? Why do I. know that name, Hammond?" And it hits.

him that he had talked to him in the. initial canvas for Peggy Hedrickk's. case. >> So I'm tying this together. Weird. cameras. uh crime scene near the crime scene back. then and he's a doctor and guess what we. find in his closet. We start looking. through his closet and we find Tom. McCann's shoes. Boy, does that ever ring. a bell. And so we called up Brick, this.

other detective did, and he refused to come out. He wouldn't. come to the scene. He said, "No, we. already know who done it." But that's a. moot point. Basically, when Jim Rodri. said that and the officer told me about. it, I I was angry about it because me as. a past detective, you don't overlook. anything. You know, you you flip over. every stone that you can. You might be. wrong where your lead was. Maybe this is.

something different. Why not look at. what's it going to hurt? Right? But he. refused to come out. So I told the. officer there, I said, "Let's just seize. everything. Let's seize the tapes, seize. the camera, seize those Tom Macccan. shoes, you know." So we did. We collect. our own evidence and turned everything. in and it never went anywhere. And I. think a day or two days later, he's. found dead in a hotel in in Denver. They.

said, from what I've learned that when. they found him, his whole body was. shaved. He shaved all the hair off his. head and his body, complete body, and. disposed of it. So that to me is weird. other than he didn't want any trace. evidence linked to him. Why would you do. that if you didn't think you might have. left something behind at a scene? >> Don't. naked mole rat.

>> What? >> I know. And. if you ask the people who are like pro-. Hammonds, >> who is pro- Hammonds, >> there are pro- Hammond people, I'm going. to get there, they will say, and this. this really came from his wife. She said. that he was very into bodybuilding. And. like I I've heard this before, try as I. might, I don't know if he was actually. like doing competitions. Like, so my question is like is he. always like N smooth or is this like.

something that he did today? Because I. think about Peggy's case, we know at one. time. >> there are unknown hairs found at the. scene. >> Exactly. So, is that why he's doing. that? Is he afraid he's tied to. something else? I don't know. His wife. says, "No, no, no. It was just the. bodybuilding. There's no way he could. have done anything violent. That's not. like him." which like I have all the. questions about because like how does.

she even know what he's capable of? Did. he did she know about the tapes and the. video cameras and everything? >> She said she didn't know about any of. that. So I feel the same way. I'm like. you can't you can't have it both ways. You can't say that you were totally. shocked by this. You had no idea. And. >> you definitely can't do that. >> But I actually know him and that for. sure know like it doesn't work that way. So I don't know. She did end up getting. an immunity deal. >> from what is my question. >> Probably because like all the tapes and.

stuff was like in her house too. I don't. know. >> But she got an immunity deal and she. told the police like she didn't know. about this but they had this like very. vanilla life. She said, you know, she. would make dinner from scratch and he. would come home at 7 and they would have. dinner with their two teenage kids and. then their kids would do their homework. and they like didn't even watch TV. because they didn't really like it. Just. like a sweet family life. wasn't showing. what Hammond was into. >> No. So, he is arrested.

He is released on a $5,000 bond. And. that's when he went to that hotel and he. took his own life. He had like a cyanide. cyanide drip to his leg. And it's so. interesting the way that he and the. people who support him like spun this. thing after his death. And it kind of. starts with the note he left behind that. Britt, I'm going to have you read. The media frenzy surrounding my arrest.

has caused immeasurable harm to many. people, especially my family. I have. lost everything, but I cannot survive. the loss of my wife and son and. daughter. My death should satisfy the. media's thirst for blood so that. hopefully everyone else who has been. affected by the case can truly begin the. process of healing. I love redacted. family names very much. I am truly sorry. for having hurt you so deeply, Rich.

Hammond. >> So he really makes it about the media. like. >> what I didn't wasn't so bad. >> But the the way that the media they're. bloodthirsty really bad. >> And the way that the community like. latches on to this is wild. There is. basically this like brawl that takes. place within the newspaper where people. are writing like these letters to the. editor and these op-eds where they are. defending this man and saying that like.

the media and reporting on what he did. is the problem. And it's almost. unbelievable. But I want to like share a. little bit with you. I gave you some of. this. There was this woman named Pam. Hurley Nagel. >> I literally could not read all of it. >> It's horrific. >> Yeah. >> But you you need to understand like the. tone at the time because. >> so this is published like in the news. >> It saddens me that the Colorado and. other media flits chose to feast on. Richard Hammond's tragic plight.

I don't condone his alleged behavior. which was limited to the privacy of his. own home. >> What? Like filming other people without. their consent in his home? >> Minors, by the way. There's like a lot. of minors like get [ __ ]. Bam.

But the media exploited this man and his. family, their vulnerability. Okay, Rich Hammond was a man and doctor. who took time to replenish his society. with quality medical care. What he. allegedly did was wrong, but in the. scheme of things, the hurt was. exaggerated after the media got its. predatory clause in it. So this is like the tone in Colorado at.

the time and as they are finding even. more. Richard Hammond had a secret. storage locker no one knew about with. Rubbermaid tub after rubber made tub of. more videotapes, pornographic material, sex toys. He had a secret bank account. nobody knew about. a phone that like was. registered to like his practicing. partner who's like not my phone. >> Tell them about the belt. >> Oh my god. And then they then they found.

this like waist contraption that like. hooks onto a belt that has all these. tiny sharp instruments that would just. like. >> little knives, >> but they never thin knives. >> They never tested that. They never did. anything with that. And all this time, like it's important to know that when. the media is talking about him there, no. one is talking about him in connection. to Peggy. >> It's just these tapes. >> It's just about these tapes. And a lot.

of people, Ray Martinez, they're like, "Okay, is it possible Peggy was on one. of these tapes? Is it possible he was. connected to Peggy in some way?". We don't know because something weird. happened a couple of months after he. died. There was a motion that got granted very. quickly and all of the evidence in the. case of Richard Hammond, all the. videotapes, everything they collected, those Toman shoes, it all gets burned.

against every protocol, every procedure, against everything that they were. supposed to do with this evidence. It. was deemed burnable. And Jim Brick, some people thought it. was weird, but Jim Brick shows up to. talk to the Denver Post and he says, quote, "Should we revictimize all these women. by telling them they're victims?" So. really, it's an effort to protect them,

to preserve these victims rights, which, okay, hear me out. There is a world in. which I can imagine finding out you are. on one of these horrific tapes and never. wanting it to exist. >> For sure. >> Get rid of it. I don't want to even know. that it's locked in an evidence locker. somewhere. It needs to be destroyed. But. I think what we need to focus on here is. the phrasing in that statement from Jim.

Broadick. >> Yeah. Because by destroying everything, they took away their like ability to sue. his estate, to do anything legal with. it. >> Well, and on top of that, by telling. them they're victims. >> Yeah. So many people didn't even know. They did talk to some people and confirm. that they were on the tapes, but the. real kicker is they didn't actually look. at most if not all of them before they. could even assess what was on them. They.

destroyed them, which again is against all policy and. procedure. And I know somewhere out there there are. noble people who do noble things for. noble reasons. would love to meet more. of them. >> They are probably not within this. department that railroaded a 15-year-old. for drawing things. I. always go a layer deeper. have a feeling. it has to do with the fact that there.

was going to be a special prosecutor on. Hammond's case if they were going to. take this tape thing to trial because. Laramar County had to recuse themselves. because members of the DA's office quote. had been guests of Hammond's home and. may have been videotaped. >> I think we just found out why all the. tapes were destroyed. So, they were so. ready to just like write this off, make. this go away. I mean, they were like.

accepting these like bogus excuses of. why he couldn't be connected to Peggy. Like, someone was like, "Oh, well, he. didn't even like use scalpels. He. couldn't have like cut off her nipple. He didn't use scalpels." And his the guy. he like owned the practice with was. like, "Yeah, we do surgery with. scalpels. What the [ __ ] are you talking. about?" They have an affidavit from a. woman who's like, "He used a scalpel on. my very eyes." Like, that's not true. But they just wanted this to go away. And just to show you like how far under.

the rug this was pushed at the time, which by the way, it is not lost on me. that this happens in 1995 and Jim Rodri. reopens his case on Tim in 1996. But it is so far pushed under the rug. that Peggy's family, Tom, had never. heard about Richard Hammond. I remember a few years ago they talked. about a doctor. I was coming out of the. village in with my friend and he looked. at the news box, Rocky Mountain News,

and had p Peggy's picture on the front. cover of the newspaper and he said, "Hey. Tom, that's your sister." And I so he. got the newspaper. We went back into the. village and I read it. I skimmed over. it. I went, "What? Who is this doctor?". Yeah, nobody's ever told me about this. guy. >> So Tim's defense team never knew about. any of those three guys I just talked. about. And there were so many people in. the case file that I think warranted a.

deeper look. I mean, there was a guy. named Greg Casease, who I think was the. person Peggy was actually dating at the. time. Derek Cordova was somebody she had. seen before. A guy named Tim Matthews. was someone who supposedly liked Peggy. and was jealous of Matt. And I'm not. saying any of these guys had anything to. do with it, but clearly these guys were. like part of her life and they didn't. even do so much as talk to them. >> So there's a lot of other suspects, but. the thing that got the thing that like. solidified. the exoneration to begin with was the.

DNA. So like. >> So we have Yes. So this. >> what happened with it? >> We do have DNA. That's what ruled Tim. out. The DNA that we have, there was a. part of a profile on the waistband of. her underwear. Now, mind you, everything. we have is touch DNA, and they tested. that part because they figured if her. pants were pulled down, maybe her killer. was the one to pull them down. So, we. have a waistband of her underwear. Then, they found some mixtures on her clothes,

like her under her arms, her coat, her. boots, her pants. They find a full DNA. profile on her sleeve. It turns out that. was just a cop because nobody's wearing. gloves back then. You guys saw it. And we do know that there was a match to. the DNA found on her waistband of her. underwear. And do you guys want to guess. who it was? It was Matt Zner.

So, we have this. match to the partial. >> Mhm. >> profile. Why isn't that enough to. confirm to say to convict Matt? >> Well, Linda Wheeler thinks it should be. >> I want Matt Zoler to know that I'm still. after him. I want him to know to make up. some little hiccup or something that in. his life that he'll make a mistake that.

we can catch him on. But it's like I. just when I when I I I know who did it. and he's not held accountable and he's. been free for 30ome years that uh the. attorney general did all they could and. I really felt that they did. But it's. like but I'm not done and I I don't I. don't want to be silenced. There's still. a wrong that was done and I still feel. like something might good might come out. of of this case getting reopened and and.

refocused on that there somebody might. come up with something that's said or. done that we didn't know about that. allows us to take this case further and. keep it opened. >> Now the problem is there could be. explanations for the DNA like touch DNA. You don't know when it's put there. It. can be transferred. We know that her and. Matt had a relationship. We know that. they interacted the night she died. We. know they went to dinner like within the. last week and nobody asked them about. that. Like.

>> it's not 100%. We also have the Missy Woods of it all. If anyone listened to our John Ramsey. episode, you'll remember that Colorado. is having a DNA reckoning right now. because a woman who worked in their lab. from like the '9s to 2023 was found to. be like falsifying a bunch of stuff. like wasn't following policy and. procedure. All of the cases she worked. on are under investigation. >> There's a lot in question when it comes. to DNA that's being handled, stored, >> right,

>> processed through Colorado for decades. now. >> And even though a lot of it, like, you. know, some of that stuff was done in. that independent lab in Holland. Again, >> stored in Colorado. >> It all was there. And so, is that going. to be something that a defense team. uses? It's totally possible. I also. think that like a defense team basically. like has all these open ends because of. Richard Hammond as well. Like you. without that door being closed, some. very powerful people made sure we'd. never know what was on those tapes. We.

made sure that we could never like fully. close that door or cross them off the. list. And so I think it's going to. potentially make a prosecution very. difficult. But I also think that they. should be we have multiple other partial. profiles that didn't match Matt. And I. think we should be testing these other. people, too. >> And just to show you how much I think. can still be done, because I think DNA. testing is going to help. I think it's. going to potentially take this case. forward, but there is just so much leg. work that can still be done. Right now,

no one is working this case. And as we. were literally coming like getting ready. to do this show for you guys, we came. across another person who we had never. heard before. this guy named Randy. England who is in prison right now but. who had a streak of crimes from 1977 to. 87 and his crimes it shows that he was. clearly escalating in northern Colorado. and he was super active in 87 when Peggy. was murdered and we found this note in.

one of Tim's lawyers like papers that. said quote England cut off nipples too. and I don't we haven't been able to. track that down we're still trying to. request records. But there's also this. tip in Peggy's case that someone saw a. car with Wyoming license plates at. around the time that she's thought to. have been murdered. He had a car with. Wyoming license plates. So again, I. don't know if this means anything, but I. know that it means there's more that. needs to be done, more people to talk. to, more to track down, more leg work. that the state of Colorado is just not.

doing. Now, after Tim was released, he went on. to write a book about his case, about. the prosecution, about his wrongful. conviction. We relied on it heavily for. this. We relied on talking to him and. talking to Tom. And he said since since. his wrongful conviction, he's just been. like trying to live his life. He likes. working on cars. He likes working with. horses. He likes spending time with. people he loves. And he actually has a.

really surprising confidant these days. I think it is really ironic that the the. former lead investigator in the case who. came to arrest me in 1992 is actually. one of my dearest friends now, Linda. Holloway. Turns out she's a really good person. She put herself out there so much. Linda. Holloway put herself out there so much. to do the right thing. It just. for one, she it greatly endear me to.

her. I'm I'm not good with good at. words, but it's very endearing that she. did that. She put herself out there for. me, and it just speaks volumes to her. integrity. She's she's just one of those. people that will do she'll do the right. thing regardless. She just has she does. the right thing. That's a rare person in. this world. I mean, a lot of people wouldn't go out. on a limb like she did. They would just.

go with the grain. life would have been. a lot easier for her if she had just. gone with the grain and not not gone. gone against everybody else. >> Tom Hedrickk was diagnosed with stage 4. colon cancer two and a half years ago. So you heard at the top of the show he. has limited time and he's the last. person talking about Peggy before now. this is why we are talking about Peggy. and it's what has made him like feel. this sense of urgency to get her name.

out there and for you to know her story. >> I said you guys have had 30ome years to. do your job and I said obviously at this. point you're telling me the case is. closed. and I said but the fella upstairs is. going to they're not getting by him. he. already knows who it is and he'll take. care of this problem. And they just all. they're all all their faces just turned. white. And I said, "He'll he will get. the final say. You've had your chance.".

And uh and I said, "What's it going to. take to reopen this?" Because they told. me it was closed. And they said, "Short. of a full confession, nothing.". I said, "You what?" and they said unless. somebody actually comes forward and. admits to it completely. and and fully uh we can't reopen this. case. And I just I was as far as I was.

concerned with that meeting I was done. I wanted to get out of there because for. over 30ome years we I've waited around. for something to to take place for this. and then they take somebody and they put. him in prison for 9 years and he's. innocent as the driven white snow and. they ruin his life to a certain extent. and then he gets out and and rightfully.

so. And and here we are. Here we are. today, right now, doing this interview, and still nothing has been done about. it. And it's like everybody just wants. to turn a blind eye to it and move on. What? What? Move on? Well, you're I don't have much longer to. go because I have a disease that'll take. my life soon and I want something done. about I want the people that have the.

ability to do their job to get busy and. do their job. That's what they need to. do instead of just turning a blind eye. Well, you know, it is what it is. Case. closed. There have been a lot of mistakes in. this case that I've learned through. media, through the newspaper, from. Linda, quite a bit from Linda. And uh. I'm not happy, very upset about this. So, I don't have longer to go, so I want.

something done about it immediately. So, this is where you guys come in. I. need you to get out your phones. This is. the time to do it. Everyone take out. your phones. This QR code will take you. to a place where you can just put in. your information and we made it super. easy. >> Ashley, do you see all these phones? >> Beautiful, >> but it will email the attorney general. and say that we're requesting that you. guys reopen Peggy's case. We're now the. people who have to pick up this for Tom. and speak on behalf of Tom and Peggy.

So, I'm going to give you a minute. I'm. going to put it up afterwards, too. We. are so grateful that you guys are here. It is. I cannot express to you how weird. this is. >> It's wild. Six years ago, we did a show. in a basement in Philly where it was. pouring rain and it was leaking and. there was 100 people there and it was. and I don't know how we got here and we. got but we got here because of you and. you guys are wonderful and our team. I. want to say a huge thank you. There's. amazing audio check people here you guys.

who helped put this together. >> We can't do a show like this by. ourselves. They're absolutely. incredible. >> We can't do an episode without them. >> Thank you guys. >> Thank you guys. You are amazing. >> We'll see you on Monday.