The Bride Who Vanished: The Niqui McCown Mystery

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley. Flowers. >> And I'm Brit. >> And today, I'm bringing you a special. episode. If you recognize the name. Marilyn Nikki Macau, then you have. either been with us since the very. beginning or you have made it all the. way through our podcast archives because. Nikki's story was the first one I ever. told on Crime Junkie [music] back in. December of 2017 before we knew what the. show would become, before the millions. of you listening now and long before we. had a team of investigative reporters.

digging into these cases. And Nikki's. case really shaped the future of what. this show would become because I. remember you have to remember it too. The day after I released this episode, her daughter Payton reached out to me, [music]. said that she had listened, said she was. grateful for the attention, but there. was more to the story. So I drove up to. Richmond, Indiana. I met with her and I. held that conversation with me every day. for 8 [music] years. a reminder that. even when we had no following, the.

people who lived these stories would be. listening to these stories. I never. forgot her. I never forgot her mom. And. [music] I kept tabs on this case the. whole time. But not much changed in 8. years. So, I had this idea. Back in. 2017, [music] this show was a lot. different. I mean, it has evolved so. much over time that maybe it's hard to. notice unless you binge. [music] So, I. wanted to show you how far we've come to. thank you for showing up every week for.

caring [music]. and for giving us the resources to grow. And I want to show you how we put those. to work. What started out as just me and. Brett retelling a story that's already. been told, like many true crime shows. do, it is now a full-fledged. investigative reporting operation with a. team of reporters to bring you. neverbeforeheard details on cases you. thought you knew, like this one. So, little by little over the last year, me. and [music] the team have been digging. into this with fresh eyes. And now, I'm.

here to bring you the real story of. Nicki Macau with never before released. information that you aren't going to. believe. And at the end of this, you'll. realize that this case that once had an. ending might not be so tightly wrapped. up as we thought. It's been almost 25 years since Nikki. Macau went missing and over 8 years. since we first told her story. So, let.

me start by refreshing everyone on what. we knew back then. On July 22nd, 2001, Nikki and her fianceé Bobby Webster went. to church with plans to wrap up their. wedding invitations together [music]. later that day. After the service, Nikki. went back to the apartment that she. shared with Bobby. She changed into some. casual clothes like a pink top and biker. shorts, loaded up Bobby's GMC with dirty. clothes, and then drove to the Richmond. Coin Laundry on Southeast Street,

something that had become [music] kind. of like a weekly ritual. Just before 2. p.m., a witness saw Nikki inside the. laundromat. Then 15 minutes later, security footage captured her at the. nearby Village Pantry convenience store. getting change. I'm assuming for the. laundry machines. Now, before she left, she looked totally normal. Things seemed. fine. But they obviously didn't stay. that way because just a little while. later, we know that Nikki got back in. her car and drove this short distance to. her parents house where she told her mom.

that she [music] felt uncomfortable. Some guys at the laundromat had been. bothering her, like wouldn't leave her. alone. >> Well, and her mom even offered to finish. the laundry up at her place. Right. >> Right. Cuz she had a machine at her. place, but Nikki didn't. So, she goes. back and according to the Dayton Daily. News at about 300 p.m. someone sees her. back at the laundromat, but I don't. think they're like whoever's seeing her. the witness, they're like staying there. or have eyes on her for a long time. because we just have this like brief. confirmation that she's there at [music].

3 and then that's it. We don't know when. she finished or if she left or when she. left or if she left alone. We just know. that as the afternoon wore on, she never. made it back to her apartment. didn't. return to her parents' house to pick up. her then nine-year-old daughter, Payton. And by early evening, her family had. started to worry and they began calling. around trying to [music] find her. And. with no luck, they end up filing a. missing person's report with the. Richmond police that next morning. And. even though she was in the prime of her.

life with a daughter, she was about to. get married. Like, I mean, the wedding. was just around the corner. She had no. history of disappearing like this. For. some reason, the family said the police. didn't initially think that something. bad had happened. They kind of figured. that she would just come home when she. was ready. >> Well, and if I remember, they actually. kind of used the wedding thing against. her. They thought this was like a case. of cold feet. She was like freaking out. and kind of just pieced out because of. that. >> Yeah. I mean, they had nothing else. telling them [music] differently. And. so, with the wedding just weeks away,

this whole like runaway bride theory was. a convenient narrative, >> right? But her family never bought that. And they even told the police about her. getting harassed, right? >> Oh, yeah. They told police, but there. was no hint of a struggle at the. laundromat. No hard evidence left. behind. So, they kind of waited it out a. little to see if she turned back up. But. the more time that passed, the more. concerning things got. There was no. activity on her bank accounts, no trace. of the car that she'd been driving. In.

those first days, it was up to Nikki's. [music] family to organize search. parties. They got dozens of volunteers. to comb the wooded areas and the back. roads around Richmond, Indiana, and they. passed out as many flyers as they could. And one of the people helping pass out. flyers was, of course, Nikki's fianceé, Bobby Webster. But outside of that, he. wasn't really participating in any. [music] of the searches. And probably. because he was too busy doing some. really eyebrow raising things at a.

moment when optics mattered. According. to police accounts, within days of Nikki. disappearing, Bobby contacted the. community college that Nikki [music] was. attending to ask about her unused. tuition. Like, what would happen to it? Could he get a refund? >> Kind of like he's sure she's not going. to be going to class anymore. >> And he must be pretty sure they're not. getting married either because he also. went to a jeweler and returned Nikki's. engagement ring. Even cancelled their. reception venue for a refund within a. week. Now, at the time, his excuse was.

that he just really needed the money. with Nikki being gone and her not. working. >> and his car was missing with her, I. guess. Well, >> uh, it was, but that's not like a factor. in the money thing. Nikki had her own. car and he had a key to that, so he'd. been using hers. >> So, he had a car. >> that shouldn't have been like a money. factor. Basically, he just needed to. like pay the bills or whatever. Like, they weren't well off. They're kind of. living paycheck to paycheck. So, without. her paycheck or I mean, again, we're. talking days, but he knows her paycheck. isn't going to be coming, >> right? Does he? He thought money was.

just going to be tight, but he insisted. he was devastated by her disappearance. and had no idea where she could be. Now, like I said, this is all happening over. the first few days of Nikki coming up. missing. And when police start getting. more involved, they look at what Bobby's. been doing and they become suspicious of. his actions, too. So, they ask him to. come in and take a polygraph. Now, when. he does, police say that he failed an. important question, one along the lines. of, "Did you have anything to do with or.

know anything about Nikki's. disappearance?" His response was, "No.". But according to the polygraph, it said. that's a lie. Now, later on, Bobby came. out and said that is not what or how. they asked him. He [music] said that the. way the question was phrased was. something more like, "Do you feel. responsible for her going missing?" and. he said like, "Well, how would any man. not feel partially responsible for not. being there when something happens to. your fiance, your woman?" Now, I can't. find where police ever came out and.

confirm or deny any [music] of this. Was. it is it like they said? Is it like. Bobby said? Is it somewhere in the. middle? Which kind of just left everyone. with a lot of questions about Bobby, but. no physical proof [music] tying him to a. crime. >> Well, and he had an alibi, right? >> Kind of. I mean, that's what I that's. what I remember knowing back then. Like, right, he after church, he said that he. met up with a cousin and his cousin. drove them to the Richmond Square Mall. to get fitted for wedding tuxes. They're. together for like an hour and a half or.

so. And then Bobby said that he made a. couple of pit stops at people's houses. before going home between like 5:30 and. 5:45 where he expected to meet Nikki. They were going to finish up those. wedding invites, >> but she just never showed. So, yes, he. has an alibi. You know, there's a little. bit of wiggle room in there. And with. that, with the quote unquote failed. Polly, after he gets talked to by. police, he kind of just remains in this. gray space that investigators like to. call person of interest. >> Now, while searches continued for.

[music] Nikki, detectives went back to. the laundromat a week later to interview. regulars. No one saw anything that was. suspicious, not even in hindsight. [music] And more importantly, no one. seemed to know anything about the men. who may have been messing with Nikki. By. this point, Indiana State Police stepped. in to help a little by putting up a. helicopter to sweep across Richmond, Indiana, and the surrounding area. They're hunting for the vehicle she was. in, a 1990 black and gray GMC Jimmy. The.

thinking was, find the car, find Nikki, or at least be one step closer to where. she is. [music]. But week after week, the sky, the. ground, it all offered nothing. And it. turns out that's because the car wasn't. in Indiana. You see, Richmond, Indiana, you know, this is right on the eastern. border of the state, bumping against. Ohio. So, it's not uncommon for people. who live in Richmond to work in Dayton, Ohio, cuz that's the closest big city. Nikki is one of those people. She worked.

at a prison there. Even lived in Dayton. before. >> Yeah. And this is all kind of in the. same bubble for Richmond locals, I. think. >> Yes. But jurisdictional lines are pretty. solid. And so since every indication. pointed to Nikki going missing from the. laundromat in Indiana, >> no one was really paying much attention. to Ohio. >> I mean, they could go like talk to. people in Ohio who knew her and stuff. And I think they did what they could, like getting a hold of her ex, her. co-workers, her friends, but the focus. was definitely not on Dayton. So, this.

big clue got missed for months from July. 22nd all the way to November 3rd, 2001. That is when someone just happened to. stumble upon this vital clue that had. just been sitting there casually as if. it had been waiting to be found all. along. The GMC was parked at the Meadows. of Catalpa Apartments, roughly 45. minutes from Richmond. Now, the reason. the vehicle gets spotted is that one of. the doors was left open, which catches.

the eye of a Montgomery County Sheriff's. [music] deputy. He eventually runs the. plates and sees that the car was flagged. for a missing person's case. So, when. Richmond PD gets notified and gets out. there, they note that the door lock was. damaged, the ignition had been tampered. with, and the stereo was missing. So, someone had gone through the car, but. they didn't take everything. Left behind. in the back seat was a laundry basket. with folded clothes. [music] And this.

changed so much. Nikki's family first. thought something may have happened to. her at the laundromat or like right as. she was leaving or coming or going, whatever. But this made it seem like. maybe she had, you know, finished up. there completely, made it to wherever. she was going on her own. But where that. was, Lord only knows. I mean, at least. police had a starting point before. Now, all of Richmond and Dayton and. everywhere in between were in the mix. However, the complex where this vehicle.

was found had to mean something. I mean, first of all, the driver's seat was. positioned in a way that fit Nikki's. petite frame. So, they're thinking, you. know, she may have actually driven the. car here herself. But more importantly, she knew not just this general area. well, but this specific complex. She. used to live there and her ex, Steven. Johnston, [music] still lived there when. the car was found.

There was no way that this was a. coincidence. So, Richmond police went. straight to Steven, who admitted his. relationship with Nikki back in the day. had been Rocky, but he swore he had no. idea where she was or what happened to. her, and that the first time he'd even. seen the GMC there was on the news, which I remember being kind of sideeye. about this, like having a hard time. understanding it. Like, he had to have. known that everyone was looking for his. missing ex, like not just his missing. ex, his daughter's mother. And like it's.

the car is in the complex. Like how does. no one see this car? How does he not see. this car? >> Well, I mean it is possible that the car. wasn't there the whole time or where it. was wasn't in an area that like he or. everyone passed regularly. I mean, this. was a big complex and yes, it's a little. weird that he didn't see it cuz like I. did get a glimpse of some of the footage. from Richmond police, like their. evidence footage that was put on an. episode of Disappeared on Investigation. Discovery.

>> And the car is like not hidden by any. means, >> but it would almost be weirder to me if. he had something to do with it and then. like left the car in his own complex. >> Oh, totally. And I actually don't think. he's the most likely culprit. I mean, not to jump the gun on like all your. storytelling here, but we know he fully. cooperated, submitted DNA, passed the. polygraph. He was cleared pretty. quickly. >> Yeah. Right. >> So, the car being there almost feels. like a setup, which maybe someone parked.

it in a place where he wouldn't see it. for that reason, but it still blows my. mind that it was there for months. if it. was there for months. >> I mean, the only thing we knew regarding. the timing in those early days was that. police believed the car was likely. broken into sometime after it was. abandoned there, totally unrelated to. Nikki's disappearance. So, we knew it. was there for at least a little bit of. time, but nothing more than that in. those early days, >> but we don't know actually how long, especially cuz they weren't looking in. Ohio at all. So, if it wasn't Steven who.

put it there, which we're saying we. don't think it was, whoever put it there. may have been someone who knew that he. lived there or at least knew that Nikki. used to live there. Maybe they knew. about her and Steven's rough. relationship. That is someone who has to. know you pretty well, right? Well, as. detectives dug into her life in Dayton, one name kept coming up in their. interviews. someone who worked with. Nikki and lived nearby, 34year-old Tommy. Swint, who is a corrections officer at.

the facility where Nikki was employed, the Montgomery Education and Pre-release. Center. Now, Tommy had a reputation for. being close to her, maybe too close. Some co-workers, friends, family. described his behavior as protective, [music]. innocent, like a big brother figure, someone she had known for like five plus. years. But others called his behavior or. feelings toward Nikki obsessive. Nikki's.

sister, Michelle Macauen Luster, said. that Tommy had actually even sent. lingerie to Nikki's bridal shower just. weeks before she disappeared, if you. remember. She also said that one time. years before, she walked in on Tommy, pinning Nikki against a chair, and Nikki. had her like foot on his chest screaming. for help. Something that Tommy tried to. like laugh off as just playing around. And this is all sus, but kind of like. with Bobby, it didn't go anywhere. They. couldn't prove that he moved the car or. did something to Nikki, so he didn't. stay in the hot seat. And that's really.

kind of where Nikki's case seemed to. stall. >> Did they end up getting any physical. evidence from the GMC that they could. use? Well, early on they never said too. much publicly, but if they got anything, like when you think about it, if it came. back to either of the two persons of. interest, Tommy or Bobby, I don't think. it would have helped much. Like, it's. Bobb's car in the first place. Like, >> of course, there's going to be like some. sign of him in the vehicle. And Tommy. had been friends with her for five or so. years. Like, he could easily write that.

off, too. But they weren't writing him. off completely. They had over the years. kind of been keeping tabs on him and lo. and behold in 2007. this dude pops back up on the radar. Not. in Nikki's case or even for another. crime. No, they got word that he was. employed as a police officer in. Trotwood, Ohio. So Richmond police. decide that they probably need to phone. a friend here. They call up Trotwood PD.

and they're like, "Hey, don't know if. this came up in like the interview. process, but that guy you just hired, he. is a person of interest in one of our. cases." Like maybe not somebody you want. on your squad. >> They agree and basically they forced. Tommy to resign, but this man did not. want to go quietly. He filed a lawsuit. against Richmond PD and several. officials, multiple newspapers along. with two reporters alleging defamation.

His whole thing is like he says he was. never informed that he was a suspect or. a person of interest in Nikki's case and. that pretty much everyone from the. prison where they all worked had been. questioned. So like he just thought that. was like par for the course. But here's. the thing. In stirring this pot, he. pushed himself into local headlines. And. all this renewed attention finally. triggered something investigators never. saw coming. A new tip. >> A new tip, but not in Nikki's case.

>> Mm- But there would be a connection. So, in late 2007, an informant reached out. to Dayton police and said, "You should. look at Tommy for something much older. The unsolved 1991 murder of Tina Marie. Ivory. She was a 33-year-old woman found. beaten and strangled wrapped in trash. bags and a quilt dumped near a road. outside Dayton. Now, at first this seems. like a long shot, but the crime lab had. preserved DNA from the scene for nearly. two decades. Semen and blood. What they.

didn't have was a suspect to compare it. to. >> But now they do. >> Yeah. And they get him using Nikki's. case. So he's out here raising hell. being like, "I didn't know police were. even looking at me. I have nothing to do. with this case involving Nikki." So. Richmond PD are like, "Okay, like you. know, to help Yeah. to help prove your. case. Give us your DNA.". >> And he does, not knowing that Dayton. police are the ones intending to use it. So they take his DNA and the lab matches.

it to the seaman on the clothing Tina. Ivory was found in. And the blood. evidence found on the quilt that she was. wrapped in was either consistent with. him or like couldn't exclude him. depending on like what source you're. looking at. Now Tina did sex work for a. living. So the semen was good evidence. but not great. >> Like it could be argued away and the. blood wasn't a slam dunk either. So they. needed something to like really nail. him. And that's when they re-examined. tape used to bind Tina and they.

uncovered a never-before-seen print that. was his. So, all of this played out over. years. You know, this stuff doesn't. happen fast. So, it wasn't until early. 2010 that a Montgomery County grand jury. issued an indictment charging Tommy. Swint with Tina Ivory's murder. Investigators believe they finally had. their suspect, not just for Tina's 1991. homicide, but possibly for Nikki's, too. But by then, Tommy was living far away. from the Midwest. He was down in Phoenix.

City, Alabama. Now, he had been. questioned about Tina over the years as. they were like doing all that testing. So, when law enforcement from Alabama. came knocking on February 3rd to arrest. him, he must have known why they were. there. And before they could make it. inside, a gunshot rang out. Tommy had. taken his own life. He left no. confession, no explanation, no answers. about Tina or about Nikki. But for many.

people, his actions said more than. enough. And that moment became the. unofficial end of Nikki's story. The. obsessed coworker with the violent past. no one knew about had finally been. exposed. End episode. Roll credits. But we've been doing this a long time. now together, you and me and the crime. junkies. And I might have bought that. ending in 2017 when I was green. But. after covering more than 600 cases, including those in the fan club, and.

building out a team of investigative. reporters, I know an ending like that is. too vague to hang your hat on. After. all, we still haven't found Nikki. >> So, I got to wondering with our. resources now, could our team dig up. anything that changes this case? Are we. looking in the right places? Are we sure. that we landed on the right suspect? When we reached out to Nikki's family to. see if they would be interested in us. revisiting her case, I was actually kind. of shocked to learn that they themselves.

had already been asking those same. questions. For them, Tommy's sudden. death didn't settle [music] anything. And in the aftermath, some of them have. become far more suspicious of someone. else. So, they welcomed our help. And. sometimes I think if you're in the right. place at the right time, the universe. just lines up perfectly because even. though every records request and. interview request was denied by Richmond. PD, a trusted source gave us some of the.

case reports that shed a whole new light. on every detail of this case. Starting. at the very beginning, whenever there's a controversial trial, do you ever wonder, did the jury get it. right? I'm Brandy Churchwell, and this. [music] is the 13th Juror podcast, where. we break down real court cases and put. you in the jury seat. >> All right, jury courtroom. >> When the gavl [music] falls, the jury's.

decision may be final, but the debate is. far from over. Listen to 13th [music] Juror wherever. you get your podcast. We have a jury find as follows as the. cow. >> In those first few days after Nikki had. gone missing, I told you that Nikki's. family was suspicious of Bobby. He was. never as helpful as they expected him to. be. He wasn't really doing much to help. them look for her. Instead, he was busy.

returning Nikki's ring, trying to get. her tuition money, and cancelling their. wedding. Oh, and watching movies. Or. maybe just one movie, but he watched it. enough times to be concerning. Nikki's. sister, Michelle, told us that Bobby was. practically fixated on this one. particular movie, one that she felt was. absurdly inappropriate considering the. situation. I don't know if you've seen. this one, but it's a movie from 2000. called The Gift. As in the gift with.

Katie Holmes, the one where she has a. jealous fiance who becomes a suspect. after she goes goes missing. >> That's the one. Which, like, can you. imagine? You were out there searching. for your missing sister and you walk in. on her unhelpful fiance watching The. Gift. Michelle said she remembers. standing there just like in shock. watching [music] him just like play this. same movie, thinking like, why this one? Why now? Why? I say repeatedly.

>> over and over. >> And he's not even hiding it, but like. nothing he was doing felt normal or. appropriate for the situation. I mean, she told us that his emotions never. seemed to match the moment. One minute. he would be sobbing and then the next he. seemed totally fine, like he could. switch it on and off. It didn't feel. real to her. In 2024, news outlet Dayton. 247 Now obtained Bobby's 2001 interview. with Richmond PD. And there is this. moment where in my opinion I hear what.

Michelle is talking about. And I'm. actually going to play a little snippet. for everyone here. >> Any thoughts where she could be at all? >> Nothing at all. I mean, give me. >> I don't want to sit and go maybe another. guy. I do hope it's another guy. I can. deal with that pain. >> Mhm. >> Pain that I can't deal with is not. knowing. I don't know if she's hungry. I. don't know. >> Is she what? >> The settings where just can't eat. I. don't know this. And I'm sitting around. trying. >> hoping it's another guy. I could deal.

with that pain. I just don't I'm sick of. everyone going to psychics. >> Oh, they've done that, too. >> It's It's okay until the phone rings at. her sisters. I can't stay at my house. >> It's okay until the phone rings. Then. it's like, what is it now? What dead end. are we headed out now? >> Mhm. >> There are a few moments like that where. he sounds like he wants to cry, but then. maybe doesn't, though. like I can't tell. because it's audio only, but he even. tells police he's all cried out because. he's just been crying for 3 days. straight before they came to talk to.

him. [music] Now, Michelle didn't see. that in the first 3 days. And when she. tried to press him [music] about the day. Nikki went missing, July 22nd, she said. that his answers seemed very surface. level. It was like the same basic. outline repeated again and again. Church, wedding errands, back home. But. he does get more detailed with police in. his interview. He says that after. church, he and Nikki went home. She. changed into her casual clothes. She. took his car because it was a gas. guzzler and unreliable. So, since she. was just going a few miles away to the.

laundromat, she took his with like a. quarter of a tank of gas in it. And he. took her Toyota sedan to go run his. errands. He also tells police that he. gave her $10 to cover laundry. It. usually costs about six to do the three. loads that she was planning. But he also. found two quarters like right before she. was leaving. Gave her that, too. He said. that he drove to someone else's house to. meet his cousin. Cousin wasn't there, so. he drives to another house. On the way, he passes the laundromat, sees the GMC. there. He says this is about 2:15ish.

Now, he ends up finding his cousin, hops. into his cousin's car to go to the. Richmond Square Mall where they do the. whole Texas thing, and then he says he's. at the jewelry store in the mall by like. 2:45 or 3:00. And he even tells police. like they should have him on. surveillance footage at the mall. But. whether police ever verified that and. got the footage is TBD. There's nothing. saying that they did in what we have. He. says after the jewelry store, they left. and he [music] was taken back to his car. and by like 3:30 or 3:45 he was passing.

back by the laundromat and this time the. GMC was gone. So he figured, you know, Nikki's done. >> Now he stops by a few houses before. getting home at around 5:30, maybe 5:45. but he notes that he wasn't really. paying attention to the times and then. he just kind of hung out at their. apartment waiting for Nikki and watching. any given Sunday on TV. To me, this. isn't a super strong alibi, especially. if we believe that Nikki left the. laundromat alive and well. She is last.

seen there by somebody at around like. 3:00, remember? >> Well, and he's literally putting himself. right there where she was at 3:30, 3:45. And that is especially interesting. knowing what I found in the case report. There is a witness who apparently places. Bobby at the laundromat with Nikki. This. woman tells police that she walked into. Richmond Coin Laundry on the day that. Nikki vanished. Now, apparently she was. just trying to use the pay phone when. she saw Nikki at the [music] entrance. talking to a black man. She didn't know.

who he was. Didn't think much of it. Not. until investigators circled back to her. years later and asked her to review this. six photo lineup. They explained the. process, tell her, you know, take your. time, but she doesn't need time. She. immediately points to photo number six, Bobby Webster, and she indicates that is. the man I saw talking to Nikki. Now, what can you do with an ID that comes. like 4 years later and after your person.

of interest has been in the news for. this case, right? like probably not a. lot. Even though the woman says that she. didn't know who he was, never saw him. other than that one time talking to. [music] Nikki and then in the photo. lineup, but without corroboration from. other witnesses, >> her ID just kind of sits there. >> An explosive claim, if real, left inside. the [music] case report. But now that we. know about it, we wondered if there was. maybe more strange behavior that Bobby. exhibited after Nikki [music] went. missing. Now, up until this point, all.

we really had were Nikki's family's. [music]. suspicions, which like valid, >> but we really wanted to find somebody. not in her family who could give us some. kind of outside perspective. And side. note, I'm also desperately on the hunt. for a TV guide that covers July 22nd, 2001 to see if any given Sunday was. playing on TV. [music]. You don't know how hard I look for this. >> You are usually really good at finding. old publications. I found one for all. the cable channels, but not for like the. basic channels. I am desperate. So, if.

anyone out there knows, hit me up. But. >> what we did find was a woman named Kim, >> who knew Bobby since childhood [music]. and actually ended up having a fling. with him about a year after Nikki went. missing. And what Kim said that she. witnessed has never sat right with her. Now, Kim went to the same church as. Bobby and Nikki. She had seen them both. the morning of July 22nd at service. [music]. And she remembers Bobby practically. glowing about the wedding. So like no.

red flags before. But a few days later. after word about Nikki was out, he. showed up at her door and something just. felt wrong. She said that she remembers. he was wearing Nikki's engagement ring. and wedding band around his neck. Even. though Kim swears that she saw Nikki. wearing them on the day that she. disappeared, like she was wearing them. at church. >> Are we talking about one of the rings. that he returned to the jewelry store or. something else? >> No. Yeah. He ends up returning her. engagement ring on the 27th. So, they're.

like 5 days between her disappearing and. then him returning it. And Bobby's at. her door only like days after whatever. And listen, it was weird to her. There. could be a straightforward explanation. here. I mean, according to Bobby. himself, in his interview with police, he said that Nikki took her rings off. before she would do laundry, and he said. she did that day. And this seems likely. because in the case report that we have, it mentions that Nikki wasn't wearing. anything on her left hand from what. detectives could tell in the. surveillance footage. But still, Kim.

couldn't make sense of it [music]. because the explanation that Bobby gave. her at first didn't match the one that. he gave her later. Like at first he said. the rings were too loose, so she was. worried about them like falling off. while doing laundry. But then in 2002 he. told her that she'd taken them off. because she'd gained weight and they. were too tight. >> Which isn't just like a different. explanation. It's the opposite, >> right? And Kim also said that when she. offered to help search for Nikki, Bobby. told her not to bother, that it would be. a waste of time. And what really spooked.

her [music] was when Bobby started. saying that Nikki was already dead, talking about her being an angel. And. Kim just could not understand why he. would be talking like that, especially. when in her opinion, it was early on. enough where there was still every. reason to hope that she was going to be. coming home. >> So with all her uneasy feelings building. up, eventually when they were seeing. each other, Kim did something that I. think most people in her position might. not have the nerve to do. She looked.

square at Bobby and asked him point. blank if he killed Nikki. According to. Kim, Bobby didn't answer. He didn't deny it. He didn't defend. [music] himself. He just broke down. crying. Kim told us that moment stayed. with her for years [snorts]. and deeply disturbed her. She didn't ask. him again and they ended things shortly. after this. >> Yeah, >> obviously. And for years, she didn't. have much contact with Bobby. But then.

one day around early 2021, so not that. long ago, >> she gets this phone call from Bobby out. of the blue. >> He's telling her, you know, he's broke, he's out of work, he's unable to get. hired because of his connection to. Nikki's case. Like it it's always like. followed him. And he begged her to let. him come stay with her. And Kim's like, I don't know. But she agreed to at least. like talk to him. And what followed was. a conversation that lasted over eight. hours [music] that left her seeing him.

and the case very differently. Kim says. that during this long call with Bobby, she learned more information about. [music] him and Nikki and their. relationship than she had ever been. aware of in all the years she'd known. him. He claimed that Nikki and Tommy. Swint were lovers. What? And when she. asked how he would know that, he told. her it was because he'd been following. them, watching them, seeing things that.

he never confronted Nikki about because. he didn't want them to be true. And Kim. couldn't believe what she was hearing. This felt like a man unraveling, like. revealing a side of himself that she had. never seen before. Someone jealous. enough to stalk the woman he loved. So, by the time Bobby finished talking, Kim. said that she knew one thing for sure. He was not [music] coming into her home. Whatever darkness he was carrying, she. wanted no part of it. Kim said that.

Bobby kept reaching out, but [music]. then seemed to give up after she stopped. responding altogether. And then just a. couple of months after that call, Bobby. died of a heart attack. Do police know. about this? I mean, I know a heart. attack isn't like an expected event, but. this feels almost like it feels like a. deathbed confession. I don't know what. this was, but like Kim held the weight. of it for a few years until [music] she. just couldn't anymore. She told us that.

it was after listening to Bobby's taped. interview that was made public online, the one that part of the one you heard. earlier. >> She said that she heard that and she. felt compelled to come forward. So, she. says that she spoke with Richmond. detective Mike Wright about her. concerns. >> But now Bobby's dead. So, like, what can. they even do? >> Exactly. And listen, Kim is clear. None. of this is proof. This is only her. experience. But based on everything she. saw and everything Bobby told her, she. could no longer reconcile the longtime.

friend that she thought she knew with. the man on the other side of that line. during their last conversation. And. girl, same. Like I'll link out to. Bobby's full interview with police, but. I bet what rubbed her the wrong way is. what I had a hard time with too in this. interview. He's like, "Oh, you know, I. hope there's another guy. I hope like. that's the reason. At least she would be. okay. I mean, you heard him." But he. says he didn't know about anything. And. he mentions Tommy Swinn, but like as one. of her friends in line with a bunch of.

other people. ever says a word about. knowing they were having an affair or. about following them. So, if he knew. that while he was sitting in the room. with detectives, then he was boldfaced. lying to them. >> Why? But here's the thing. As recently. as 2024, Detective Wright told Dine that. Bobby is no longer considered a person. of interest in this case. But when we. tried asking police that same question. ourselves, if Bobby was officially. cleared, how he was eliminated, as of.

this recording, we have not heard back. Like when I look at the case report, like depending on who we talked to, depending on who police talked [music]. to, the story of like his relationship. with Nikki, it it varies and the files. are full of conflicting accounts. I. mean, there's one person at least who. believed that Nikki and Tommy were. having an affair. Others insisted they. were just close friends. Some say it was. all just one-sided with [music] Tommy. wanting more and Nikki shutting him. down. So, I am going to get like more.

into Tommy later, but before him. becoming like the foregone conclusion to. this case and after they had looked hard. at Bobby, it turns out that there were a. lot of people that they looked at in. [music] between. It was only ever Bobby. and Tommy. Tommy and Bobby. I thought. that was kind of all they had. That's. all we got publicly, but that's never. been the full story. And this one is. full of winding roads, twisty turns, and. more red herrings than one case can.

handle. But it's been almost 25 years. And maybe to find Nikki, we have to kind. of wade through all of that. Starting. with a totally out of left field. allegation that came about 2 years after. Nikki disappeared when someone tried to. inject a brand new theory into the case. One so pointed that if it were true. would turn the entire investigation on. its head.

In November 2003, detectives received. something completely unexpected. an anonymous letter claiming. investigators had missed a crucial. relationship in Nikki's life. No name. was signed to this letter, just a set of. accusations sharp enough to ruin a. career or derail an entire. investigation. This letter named the guy. presiding over the entire prison, >> like the warden. >> The warden. And the letter claimed that.

the two had some sort of secret. relationship, that they had argued. before she disappeared, and that there. were rumors he didn't want her getting. married. And just to make things even. stranger, this letter was signed only. with the number 6345789. >> What is that? Like a inmate number, a. badge number, like employee? That's what. I thought at first, too. But it probably.

is none of the above. The best guess. according to the case report is that. it's referencing a Wilson Picket soul. song where that number is the title. It's a madeup phone number basically. like that you can call when you want. someone to like come over and give you. some attention. So, I don't if that's. what it is. I don't know if the author. was doing this as a nod to being. anonymous or like trying to give some. clue that like we're not picking up on. or if this is just like a super weird. coincidence and the number actually is.

something else. I mean there wasn't like. a dash in it like the song title or like. a phone number actually would be. So. >> could it be something else? Maybe. But. like just look at this as a whole. The. whole thing to me feels designed and not. like someone trying to help. More like. someone trying to steer the. investigation. [music]. >> Almost like a diversion. >> Yeah. And the case report states that. investigators followed up on this, but. they didn't find anything to support it. But did they? Because we reached out to.

the warden and he agreed to answer our. questions via text and he was quick to. shut down the rumor. And according to. him, he had never heard of this letter. Now, it's unclear to me whether like. police had talked to him or not talked. to him, but he was clear that the letter. at least like that this had never come. up. He was surprised by it, which I was. kind of shocked that he wouldn't have. gotten word of something like this. >> But he made it clear that he was not. romantically involved with Nikki, that.

there were no arguments of any kind, and. that in his words, she was an. exceptional employee who earned high. marks on her evaluations. Uh, >> this is feeling a little bit like the. car to me. Like I said before, like a. misdirection. Something tells me that figuring out who. wrote this letter would be far more. telling than who it's implicating. Yeah, I agree. And I know detectives were able. to determine like a couple of things.

about this letter. Really, just that it. was postmarked from Dayton, Ohio. So. like again, we're we're still focused on. the Dayton area. That's where the car is. found. And I know they tried to process. under the flap area for Prince, [music]. but they didn't get anything. So, all in. all, based on what we have, detectives. conclude that like this Nikki Warden. rumor, whatever, isn't [music] true. And. the report even like notes that the. allegations didn't seem credible and. that they even say kind of what we're. saying, that this appears to be an. attempt to push the investigation in a. different direction. But it's also worth.

considering too that maybe this was just. a hoax because whoever wrote the letter. didn't even spell Nikki's last name. [music] correctly. >> If it was someone connected though, what. was going on in the case like right. before this letter appeared? >> I had that same question, right? Like if. cuz this this is coming two years later. like what. >> it feels like kind of cold. Nothing's. happening. >> Things had stalled by that point. And so. I had the exact same thought like what. is happening that you're like, "Oh, I.

need to do something.". >> Yeah. >> I don't have all the files. The only. note that I see right before this one. [music] was from like a few weeks before. when this body had been found in Owen. [music] County, Indiana. Now, it sounds. like they were going to run some tests. to make sure that it wasn't Nikki. Obviously, it didn't end up being her, >> but maybe someone panicked, >> right? But like you would think that. someone if it was someone connected to. actually what happened to Nikki, they.

would know where they put her body and. they would know that this one in Owen. County. >> wasn't her. >> Yeah, I guess. >> And like Owen County, by the way, is. like southwest of Indianapolis. It's a. hike from like this Richmond Dayton. area, >> which is on the east side. >> Yeah. Maybe they were just getting word. that a body had been found. I don't. know. Or again, this whole thing could. just be a red herring. What seemed much. more promising to me were two separate. anonymous tips saying that Nikki's. remains were in illegal dump sites.

closer by. In the first one, the Macauan. family got a call claiming that Nikki's. remains could be located at a site near. the intersection of State Route 320 and. US40 [music]. in New Paris, Ohio. Now, the caller. refused to give a name or any additional. information. And in the second tip, someone anonymously called the Wayne. County Sheriff's Office, again. referencing an illegal dump site over. the Ohio state line, possibly even. referring to the same one mentioned in.

the tip before. Now, this second call, investigators were able to trace to this. Nebraska. or the Dayton area. They they had it. narrowed down to these kind of like two. names, but they were never able to. identify who actually made this call. I. got kind of obsessed with this one. So, our reporters followed this lead and we. got in touch with the company owner's.

son and based on the descriptions he. gave us, one of these guys seemed more. likely over the other. We still tracked. down both guys, but either way, they. each denied having anything to do with. the call, and they said they didn't know. Nikki or anything about the case. And we. were even able to like figure out. exactly what phone the call would have. been made from inside the building. It. was like in this area that was. accessible to all employees if they were. in town at the time, of course. >> But with this being so long ago, we.

couldn't get like 100% confirmation to. nail down one person. So, kind of the. way detectives hit a dead end, so did. we. And honestly, after detectives hit. this same dead end that we did, things. really slowed down with this tip. Those. come in in 2006. And as they investigate. into 2007, that's when things with Tommy. start heating back up. And so, that's. where all the focus ends up going. But.

before we circle back to him, I have to. tell you about something tucked [music]. so far down in the narrative of this. report, I almost missed it. But the. second my eyes hit one name in. particular, I froze. Like, I couldn't. believe what I was seeing in the case. report because this name was one I knew. well. So, you see, after they found the. GMC in Dayton, police made a concerted. effort to really try to talk to everyone. in Dayton who knew Nikki, right? Well, one of the women they get in touch with.

tells them that some woman named Kay. told her she ran into someone else. I. know this is getting a little. convoluted, but this someone else told. Kay that they were Nikki's godmother. And this godmother said that Nikki had. just got cold feet. And oh, by the way, Kay has this boyfriend named Jeff. [music] Moore. And Jeff actually just. happened to be friends with this disc. jockey who was murdered in Ohio the year. before Nikki's disappearance. Her name. was Kelly D. Wilson.

That stopped me in my tracks because if. anyone's listened to my other podcast, The Deck, they might remember that I. covered Kelly's case years ago. And that. case is still unsolved. Now, the next note in the report says. that they talked to this Jeff guy who's. like mentioned, and he's like, "Yeah, I. worked construction at the apartments. where Kelly was killed and we were. friends." And it's that's it. Like. that's like the end of the the summary. of their conversation. this Kelly, Jeff, K, none of it sticks. But I was over.

here freaking the f out because another. weird detail I already knew because I. lived in that case is that Kelly's on. air disc jockey name was Nikki. And this apartment where Kelly was. killed in 2000 was Meadows of Freaking. Catalpa. The same place where Nikki once. lived, where her GMC that she was. driving ends up being found. >> Something about these Meadows of Catalpa.

apartment keeps pulling us back. >> Everything comes back to these. apartments. [music] And guess who. frequented those apartments? Tommy. Swint. >> And we're back. Apparently, he used to. pick Nikki up from that complex when she. and her ex Steven would be like. fighting. This is before Bobby. So, my. big question, did Tommy know Kelly? >> Like, we know he hung around that area, but we can't seem to confirm if Tommy.

was in the same circle of friends as. Kelly. We tried asking around, but so. far we can't find anyone who can say for. sure either way. And are we sure Kelly. knew her killer? >> No, not necessarily. And actually, I am. going to put Kelly's deck episode in the. Crime Junkie podcast feed for anyone who. wants to hear or you can find it on the. deck feed. If you are not familiar with. her case, you have to listen. It is. truly wild. But at least in my opinion, it is totally possible that Kelly could.

have been killed by someone who just saw. an opportunity, someone who may have. just been in her apartment complex when. she came home late after drinking, after. being at a party. Now, we actually. reached out to the Montgomery County. Sheriff's Office asking if they have any. DNA in Kelly's case, wondering [music]. if they could compare it against Tommy, but they said no. They don't have any. unknown DNA samples from a possible. suspect. >> But have they considered him? I mean, Dayton's big, but it's not that big, right?

>> Yeah. I mean, we asked them about a. possible connection between Nikki's case. and Kelly's, and we were told they're. quote not aware of any connection. between those two. End quote. So, they. did look at it. Honestly, I don't know. Like, we couldn't get. another follow-up with them. So, it's. not clear to me if they looked deep into. this and and that's what's making them. say they're not aware of a connection or. if it had just not come up, which would. also like result in them saying like, "We're not aware of a connection.".

>> That answer kind of works both ways, >> right? But if there is a connection, then in that hypothetical scenario, we're back where the first episode. ended, and Tommy is the most likely. culprit for Nikki's case. I mean, did. did the case report convince you of. that? Convince me 100%. No. I mean, like to to me, like until we. find Nikki, nothing is 100%. Right. I. will say that the case report filled in.

a lot of the blanks, making it clear why. they were so confident that it was him. And it made it clear to me that we never. got the whole story on Tommy. Because if. Tommy Swint had anything to do with. whatever happened to Nicki Macau, it is. clear that police theorized he worked. with and had help from someone that you. have probably never heard of until right.

now. It's impossible to talk about the new. stuff [music] I learned about Tommy. Swind without discussing this other. person because it's all so intertwined. [music] And while this is all new. information now, it's been there all. along. Actually, after I released our. first episode on Nikki and then met up. with her daughter Payton, she told me. about this other person. like not in. detail, just kind of like mentioned that.

there was this other woman who worked at. the prison who was like mixed up with. Tommy [music] and if Tommy had answers. maybe this woman did too. And it was. that comment that Payton made that had. me so sure we never knew the full story. But I didn't have the tools to dig back. then. Well, welcome to 2026. That woman is Darlene Williams. Darlene. is a co-orker and friend of both Tommy. and Nikki. They all worked at the prison. together. And I really should say she's.

a friend of Nikki's, but she's a little. more than just that with Tommy. It turns. out the two had been having this. longstanding affair, one that was still. going on when Nikki went missing. And it. made for a complicated dynamic because. no matter which way you slice it, [music] the one thing that's clear about. Tommy and Nikki's relationship is that. Tommy seemed to have a thing for Nikki. And Nikki at minimum was keeping Tommy. close. I mean, we saw something in the.

report that maybe she was even using one. of his credit cards, like according to. one of her friends. and she may have at. least once been intimate with him based. on an account that someone in her family. gave police that is recounted in the. case report. So there may have at least. been some truth to what Bobby told Kim. like a few years ago. But the question. is did Darlene know that? [music]. And if she did know about all of this, how did she feel about it? In an early. interview with police, she seems to.

think that she is the only other woman. in Tommy's life. Like obviously she. knows he's married, but like she's the. mistress. Now, people describe Darlene. and Nikki as friends, but it seems like. something was coming between them right. before Nikki went missing. When. investigators talked to a fellow. employee, she says that Nikki, Darlene, and Tommy hung out together, but later. tells them that Nikki and Darlene had. been fighting before her disappearance, and that Nikki even left work upset the. Friday before she went missing. Now, the.

case report doesn't explicitly say why, though. doesn't offer any details about. this. And when they go talk to Darlene, Darlene denies to police that there was. any kind of fight. But what she can't. deny, what I never knew until recently, is that it's possible that the actual. last confirmed time that Nikki was alive. wasn't 3:00 when that witness saw her. back at the laundromat. [music] It may. actually be later than we thought when. Nikki called Darlene. What? So, let me.

give you the whole scoop on this call. because I think it is so important. [music]. I don't know how police initially become. aware of this. Nikki does not have a. cell phone. She only has a pager, but. apparently she had left that pager in. her Toyota that day. There is one note. in the case report that this call. between her and Darlene is not on the. home phone. So, where did she make that. call from? >> I mean, do you think they're just. getting this from Darlene? >> Possibly. I mean, she admits to police.

in her interviews that Nikki called her, and apparently she [music] was saying. that she called to ask about these like. skin, nail, hair vitamins that Nikki. wanted to get before her wedding, and. she says that Nikki was going to pick. them up that day before the store. closed, maybe from like a CVS. Now, I do. think this call happened. This is like. one of those things that is stated as. fact over and over in the case report. So, they must have confirmed this. somehow, like maybe through Darene's. phone records. I know they subpoenaed.

her call records for the 21st and the. 22nd, but maybe it's not as confirmed as we. thought. Over time, and in different. interviews with Darlene, the time of. this call changes. I mean, like it in. different statements, it's as early as. 3:30 p.m. to as late as 6:00 p.m. Either. way, it doesn't seem like police ever. determine where this call is made from, which I think is so important. Wasn't. there a witness who was at the.

laundromat to use a pay phone and like. she saw Yeah. >> So, there's like there's a phone there, so maybe Nikki used that. >> Yes. But per Bobby's timeline, if we're. believing his story, he's driving by the. laundromat at like this exact time, 3:30, >> 3:45. >> Yeah. And her car is not there. So to. me, she's not making the call from the. pay phone, which like leaves two options. in my mind. One, Nikki made the call. from a pay phone at a gas [music].

station. This option half works with the. theory that police seem to have. It's. clear from the detectives notes that. they don't fully buy Darlene's story. about why Nikki called because like in. the case report they call out the fact. that there was a CVS like right by the. laundromat that was 24 hours so she. didn't need to get anywhere before it. closed. >> And when we spoke to a close friend of. Nikki's, she told us that the rumor was. Nikki wasn't going to a store to get. these. She was going to someone's house.

to pick these up. possibly a co-worker's. house. Most of her co-workers live near. Dayton. The co-orker she is calling. about these vitamins lives in Dayton. And the about 44 [music]. mile drive to Dayton was one that Nikki. made all the time for work. Like so I. don't think she would think twice about. just like going there to pick something. up. >> So my thinking is if she's going to make. a longer drive, remember Bobby's car is.

a gas guzzler. It only had like a. quarter of a tank of gas, according to. what he told police in his interview. [music]. But I found from the case report that. when the car was found, it had half a. tank of gas. So if she drove the car out. there, it had to have been filled up. Maybe she called then at a gas station. >> I mean, this makes a lot of sense. actually. >> Maybe. Hold that thought because it's. not a perfect theory. Here's the problem.

with it. Bobby said the only money she. had on her was like $1050, right, that. he had given her. >> for the laundry. >> It would cost [music] about six bucks to. do the three loads. So that's gives her. like $4.50 left. >> Did I research the price of gas in this. area July 2001 and then the size of a. GMC Jimmy tank couldn't be your crime. junkie if I didn't. >> So the tank held like 31 gallons. Gas. was anywhere from like 132 to 145 a. gallon depending on if she filled up in.

Indiana or Ohio. >> I wish. >> I know. Like so cheap. So if it's. already a quarter full to get to a half. a tank and this is before she drove and. used any more, she needs like $11 worth. of gas. And again, this is before she. makes the 40 mile drive in good. condition. A 1990 GMC Jimmy gets like. average 15 m per gallon on the highway. So, we know the GMC is in poor. condition. Like, best case scenario, let's just cut to the chase. Back of the. napkin math, she had to have put.

somewhere between like 12 to 16 bucks. into the car. She had 450 according to. Bobby, >> right? >> So, did she even have money for that? Maybe. Nikki's sisters, Michelle and. Tammy, told us that she almost always. had a wallet on her, but no one seems. sure about whether she had it on her. that day at the laundromat. All we know. is that there was no wallet reportedly. found in the GMC. >> So Nikki did or didn't have enough money. to get on her own. Like we don't know.

>> I don't know. Like. >> you just saw me do the math. Like I am. desperately looking for answers over. here where I don't know if there are. any. Like it shouldn't be this hard to. know if she had any of her cards on her. So I don't know. It's possible she had. money or a card that nobody knew about. >> Well, and she could have had Tommy's. card too, right? Like that's in the case. file. Well, in the case report, I have. like a narrative, right? >> I don't know if they checked. >> her financial reports. I don't know if. they checked Tommy's. >> But if she didn't have money on her,

then we're actually back to where we. started. And she went somewhere after. the laundromat, maybe even in the. Richmond area to call Darlene sometime. between 3:30 and 6:00 p.m., depending on. Darlene's different accounts. So, wherever she went, did someone intercept. her? and they drove the car and had. money for gas. >> Could Darlene or Tommy have been in. Richmond around then? >> According to the case report, no,

because Darlene says she got the call. from Nikki while she was at work. >> in Dayton, >> right? And it's kind of insinuated in. the reports that she was working her. normal second shift that day, which. would have kept her at [music] the. prison till later in the evening. >> But Tommy was not at work. He was in. Dayton. says he went to church, went to. dinner with his wife, like just as he. does every Sunday, never venturing to. Richmond. But when they ask his wife. about this, she doesn't seem to remember. much about [music] July 22nd. And it's.

really the next day that things get. really shifty. So, the day after Nikki. [music] goes missing, this is now July. 23rd, 2001, both Tommy Swind and Darlene. Williams were scheduled to work, but. they call out, according to the case. report. Darlene calls out of work at. 12:45, which is just an hour and 15. minutes before her shift is supposed to. start. And Tommy Swint's work records. show that he didn't put in for the day.

off until the 24th, so the day after he. actually took it. So, if they weren't at. work, what were they doing then? >> Well, in a police interview, Tommy. straight up tells police that he took. the day off to go to Richmond to help. search for Nikki with Darlene, even. saying they met up with some of Nikki's. family. Darlene has the same story when. she speaks with detectives. But when they go back to the family to. fact check this, at least according to. them, Tommy and Darlene never show up on.

the 23rd. [music] And we confirmed this. with the family today. They don't. remember either Tommy or Darlene being. with their group on that day after she. went missing. >> So I ask again, what are they doing. then? >> The milliondoll question, but as far as. our records could uncover, one that no. one seems to find an answer to. Though you can see why police spent so. much time digging into these two. So, by.

early 2002, police were running any and. all reports that they could on this. couple. They're looking for anything, and I mean anything. And paying. attention to details matters because in. doing this, police looked to see if. there were any driving infractions. And. like both had some come up, but like. none for the dates in question, whatever. But something did stand out to. one of the detectives. It was a speeding. ticket that Tommy got on October 7th,

2001. [music]. And he got it near the Ohio Pennsylvania. border. Seems totally unrelated, right? But it sounds like they didn't recognize. the car he was in. So they run the. plates and it comes back to an auto. leasing [music] company at an address in. Dayton. So they pull the address up on. Map Quest. Throwback. [laughter]. And you won't freaking believe it. The. auto leasing company is about a mile. from where the GMC was found.

>> Where the GMC is found at the Metals of. Gatalpa. >> Yep. Now, this looks like a residential. area. So, it's probably weird to them. that it's coming back to like a leasing. company or whatever, but they got to. know who this belongs to, right? So, Detective Roger Redmond and Detective. Mark Connory decide to pay this address. a visit. And listen, I've read a lot of. police writeups. They're like dry and. clinical. Even 90% of this report that I.

have on Nikki was dry and clinical. This section reads like the climax of a. movie. They get to this house, they. knock on the door, and this like big dog. charges at the window. It sounds like. there's maybe even more than one dog. But finally after knocking and knocking, the door caks open just like a few. inches and they can see that there's. like a woman on the other side, but they. can't see her. And she's asking, you. know, like why are you here? And they're.

like, "Well, ma'am, we're investigating. a homicide. We'd like to speak with. you." And she just shuts them down right. away. So she doesn't want to talk to. them. Asking them like again like who. are you? She's I don't think she's like. believing them for some reason. So they. tell her again like, "Listen, we're. detectives. We just want to talk to. you." She again refuses. So Redmond's. like, "Look, I'm going to leave my card. You can reach out when you're ready to. talk. You can see like if you need to. verify who I am, whatever." They start. going back to their car. And as they're. about to get in, >> the woman calls them back. She's like, "Okay, I'll talk to you.".

>> So they go back into the house and it's. like eerie. All of a sudden, there are. no dogs. And as they walk into the room, which is like very dark, the woman like. walks away from them, and she has them. sit in the living room while she goes. into the kitchen where they can't see. her very well because it's so dark. And. so from the shadows, she's asking them, "What do you want?" And the detective. says, you know, like, "I want to know if. you know a man named Tommy Swint." And.

she says, "Yes.". So they ask her, "Well, do you know this. leasing company?" Mhm. And. >> she's like, "How do you know about this. leasing company?" And so Redmond. explains how he pulled Tommy's speeding. ticket. And this is when she got upset, like, "You're looking at driving. records?" And she says this multiple. times. "You're looking at driving. records." And he's like, "Yeah, we're. looking at everything.". And they can see that she's nervous. She's like rubbing her head like in her. hands. And she says, "You know who I am,

Redmond. He really didn't. I mean, he could not. see her in the dark. So, he just asks, "Who are you?". I'm Darling Williams. Now, Redmond had never been to her house. before. I He had her address from her. employment records, but everything was. like, you know, on paper in those days. He didn't make the connection, especially when it comes back to a. leasing company. >> He also never made the connection that.

she lived that close to Meadows of. Katalpa. So now they know who she is. Darlene's pretty upset. And so he says. like this is the point where they kind. of like end their interview. But it got. me wondering what if the GMC was at her. house at some point. I mean, they never. were able to determine how long it had. been parked at the apartment complex. From what I can see, witness accounts. were kind of all over the place. Some. neighbors said that the GMC had only. been there like a couple of weeks.

Others said it had been sitting there. closer to a couple of months. And there. was one woman who said that she walked. past it regularly and she was adamant. that it had been parked there for about. 3 and 1/2 months. So maybe like the. entire time. And there were even a few. residents who remembered the SUV coming. and going occasionally. So we know the. cars there sometimes not exactly in that. same spot, but no one could say what the. person behind the wheel even looked like. when it was coming and going. So, what. if for at least part of the time it was.

there at her house, in her driveway, or. in her garage at some point? I don't. have enough documentation from police. documents to know how much they dug into. her alibi of being at work or when. exactly she would have gotten off the. day that Nikki went missing. But the car. Nikki's driving is found about a mile. from her house. She calls out of work. the very next day. She is the last known. person who speaks with Nikki. That is a. lot to ignore.

>> But Britt, this is where I started. having like heart palpitations. Darlene is not just Nikki's last known. call. In what we have, Redmond also. notes this. Tommy Swint had called. Darlene Williams prior to taking his own. life. Why her? I wish I could tell you, but that is literally all we've got. I. mean, remember Tina Ivy's murder wasn't. Richmond's jurisdiction. So Redmond,

when we're reading these these case. reports, he's just getting this. information secondhand from [music]. Detective Patty Tacket out of Dayton. But according to the report, she relayed. something else to him. Tacket stated. that Swint left a note behind and in. this note, he stated he was not. responsible for any deaths. But obviously that's not true. They have. his DNA and prints for Tina, >> but all they really have for Nikki are. theories. Now, in one snippet of.

Redmond's report, he theorizes that. Darlene is somehow connected to Nikki's. disappearance. [music] And he believes. that she was disposed of into the trash. dumpster that was next to where her. vehicle was left. He thinks that the car. was driven there by Darlene Williams and. she was assisted by Tommy Swint. But. after he writes this, Tacket ends up. sharing more information with him that. makes him consider an alternate theory. You see, she had gotten results back.

from the computer that Tommy had used. while in Alabama. and she told Redmond. that Tommy was closely watching the. local Richmond newspaper and he was. paying close attention to a high school. news story about something that happened. at the school near Darlene's house which. led her to believe that maybe Nikki's. body is somewhere near Williams's. address or Meadows of Katalpa the. apartment complex. Now, according to the. case report, Darlene's property isn't.

searched until 2022, more than 20 years after Nikki. disappeared. [music]. Darlene consents to the search and. investigators bring in cadaavver dogs. trained to detect decades old remains. Based on K9 results, they dig beneath a. flower bed in her backyard. Nothing's. found. Later, ground penetrating radar. does flag underground inconsistencies. The dogs are run again. Investigators. dig again. This time focusing on a spot.

where this like plastic flower pot had. been sitting. Still nothing. No remains. No physical evidence found. But there. was another K-9 indication of remains. [music] in the area behind Darene's. property. An area with dense underbrush. and woods. An extensive lot that Darlene. does not own. immediately adjacent to. here we go again Meadows [snorts] of. Katalpa. This area that has been tied to.

this case for decades and according to. the report an area that an investigator. specifically noted warranted further. searching based on this K9 alert now. Again, police have not responded to our. request for comment as of this. recording. So, I can't tell you if that. search has ever been done. The last. thing it seems Detective Redmond ever. wrote in his portion of the narrative. was this single haunting line. This case. has been suspended until further. information surfaces. It leaves this awful question mark.

hanging in the air for Nikki and for her. loved ones. People who want to know. what's been done since the file we got. ends. So far, as of this recording, there has been no official police. response from former or current. investigators at Richmond PD. And the. same goes for Darlene. We reached out to. her for comment and advised her of the. allegations presented in the police case. report. We even sent her a certified. letter and her signature confirms that. she got it. But as of this recording, we.

have not heard back from her. So after. all this, those woods around Meadows of. Katalpa could still hold the key to. everything after all. >> And and we don't even know if anybody. even followed up on it. >> Yeah. And if Nikki's remains are. somewhere in the wooded area near those. apartments, the question still remains, who put them there? I get why police. looked so hard at Tommy. And according. to the report, detective Patty Tacket.

told Redmond that Darlene even admitted. to her that in the end she no longer. believes Tommy's comments about not. being involved in Nikki's disappearance. And like what about all those things. Bobby said to Kim? What if he really was. following Nikki in her final days? Two. of the main men [music] in this story. have passed away, but I don't think it's. too late for answers or too late to find. Nikki's remains. It's been almost 25.

years, and it's now or never. 8 years. ago, Crime Junkies got to hear from. Payton. She was a new mom back then, and. so many things have changed in her life. But in the search for her mother, it's. like she's frozen in time. And like so. many loved ones I've spoken to over the. years, it really is just answers [music]. she wants now, not vengeance. >> I think I would just like to say what. we've been saying for the last 24 and. 1/2 years is we're not going to stop.

We're going to continue. We will. continue to put the fire under you until. you decide that you want to come forward. and say something and speak your peace. At this point, I'm not looking to see. anybody really serve time. I just want. answers. I want to be able to go. somewhere and take my daughter so she. can at least speak to her grandmother. without looking at a flyer or a t-shirt. or, you know, a news article or anything. like that. I would just like to have.

that piece and really start the grieving. process of the loss of my mother. It's. different grieving someone that you. don't know you really lost essentially. So I just want them to know that I'm no. matter what come Hell and High Water and. as the great Eli Pope from Scandal would. like to say, I am the hell and I am the. high water. Um, we're going to get answers. Maybe you know something. Maybe it's. about Bobby Webster's movements the day.

that Nikki went missing. Or maybe you. know more about Darlene and Tommy's. movements. As far as I can tell, Tommy's. wife is still alive. And in 2010, someone identifying themselves as Lisa. Swint wrote on Tommy's online obituary. that he was her best friend and adoring. husband and that he was a wonderful man. and that quote, "Those who knew Tommy. also know that truth as well." End. quote. We tried every listed number for. Lisa that we could find, but as of this. recording, we haven't heard back from.

her. Someone knows where Nikki is. And. if that's you, please [music] contact. the Richmond, Indiana Police Department. at 765-9837247. You can find all the source material for. this episode on our website, [music]. crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at. crimejunkkeyodcast. >> Be back next week with a brand new. episode.