Kerry O’Brien Krueger: A Missing Mother, an Impossible Trip and a Broken Timeline

The story I have for you today is one I. can't believe I'd never heard of, but it. came to us straight from the. investigator who's trying to solve this. mystery. And he needs your help. Because. the truth of what happened to one. Wisconsin woman back in 1989 might be. right in front of him in two important. clues he holds, but he needs the help of. our crime junkies to interpret them. One. of you might be able to help solve the. mystery of what happened to Carrie.

O'Brien Krueger. Hi, crime junkies. I am still your host, Ashley Flowers, >> and I'm still Brit, >> but new studio. Who this? [laughter]. As you can see, we had a full set. redesign, >> new and improved graphics, too. a little. glow up and grow up as the show. continues to evolve. >> Yeah, you guys, when we started doing. video, it happened kind of on a whim,

but this did not. >> To be fair, you did redecorate like the. entire set last night. This is true. This morning, this is true. I should. give you guys the before and after. sometime, but most of this, like the. core of this, the team worked really. hard on for months and months and. months, and now we're like a legit. operation. >> Yeah. We even have like a control room. and like every It looks so real. >> This is so much bigger than when we. first started almost 9 years ago. But we.

are still here to do the exact same. thing, which is to bring you into the. room with your two best friends and tell. you important stories. So, let's dive. in, shall we? It's December 1989 in Wisconsin, [music]. and with the holidays right around the. corner, 19-year-old Molly O'Brien is. getting into the spirit. She's spending. the chilly night curled up in her. Milwaukee dorm room watching The. Nutcracker with her roommate and her. boyfriend. Suddenly, [music] her.

landline rings, and it's her. brother-in-law, Tracy Krueger, which. isn't strange. He's married to Molly's. 32-year-old [music]. sister, Carrie. And Molly's close with. both of them. But what he's asking is. [music] odd. He wants to know if Carrie. is with her. Now, Molly spends plenty of. time with Carrie, Tracy, and their. three-year-old daughter, but it is. always at their house an hour away in. Burlington, Wisconsin. [music]. Carrie doesn't just like randomly stop. by her dorm room. So, she tells him no. And that's when Tracy starts laying it.

all out why he's concerned. The night. before, this would [music] have been. Tuesday, December 5th, 1989, he says. that Carrie got this call at around 8:30. p.m. Tracy thinks it was maybe her. manager Jim calling. Carrie works in PR. for Gander Mountain, this like hunting. and sporting goods company. And when she. hung up, she told Tracy that she had to. fill in for somebody the next day at. this trade show in Wyoming. And that. would have been this day, like the day. that he's calling Molly, Wednesday,

December 6th. Now, Jim was supposed to. swing by and drive them both to Chicago. so they could catch an early flight. [music] Tracy says that Carrie got up. super early, left before dawn, like 4 or. 4:30 in the morning after a goodbye kiss. and a reminder to take good care of. their daughter while [music] she was. gone. But a few hours later, after Tracy. had gotten their daughter off to the. babysitter and he was at work, he got a. message that Jim was trying to reach. [music] him. And what Jim said was. really weird because he wanted to know.

where Carrie was. She had pulled a no. call, no show at work for the first. [music] time ever. And Tracy says that. he's like confused. He's like, "What do. you mean where is she?" Like she's with. you in Wyoming. >> Yeah. >> But Jim had no clue what he was talking. about because it turns out there was no. trade show. And Carrie would know that. Tracking the trade shows is literally. part of her job. Now, the more Tracy. talks, the sicker Molly feels because.

there is one thing that Molly is sure. of. [music] Carrie would never leave her. daughter. So, if no one can find her, [music] she's sure right then and there. that something bad happened. But Tracy. tries to keep her calm. He's like, "Listen, don't worry. Maybe she just. went somewhere. I'm going to start. calling around. I'm going to start. checking with everyone." [music] And. he's already sounded the alarm to. another O'Brien sister, Kathy. And even. though she lives far away in New. Orleans, she knows what to do because. she's a prosecutor. So Thursday morning, the moment she hears that Carrie still.

isn't home, Kathy brings their parents. in [music] the loop and instructs them. to make Tracy file a missing person's. report with the Burlington Police. Department. Like, do it now. Do it. today. >> So Carrie's parents bring Tracy to the. station where he runs through it all. again. The 11th hour work call, the. early trip, and how nobody can reach. Carrie now. But while her family seems. to be frantic, officers are like, you. know, meh, not so much. They put out a. bolo for her, but you know, she's an.

adult. She might just need some space. So, they [music] give it to her until. they realize that space might even be. dangerous. Cuz a couple of days later, Tracy brings them a note [music] from. Carrie's doctor saying that she had been. treated for depression and she might be. suicidal. >> [music]. >> So that is what escalates things at. least enough so that she gets entered. into the NCIC database. Now what the. doctor's note didn't mention though is. [music] the real health problems she had.

been suffering from over the last year. and a half. Severe unexplained [music]. stomach pain including nausea, vomiting, weight loss, and nobody could figure out. why. At one point, her sister Kathy even. asked her point blank if she thought she. was being poisoned. And Carrie had like. joked to a friend that maybe Tracy was. the one doing it. That's a joke that. nobody is laughing at now that she's. [music] gone. But at the same time,

nobody could look at Tracy and be like, "Yep, saw this [music] coming." If he. did something to her, it would be a huge. shock. I mean, don't get me wrong, their. marriage definitely wasn't perfect. Like. before she worked in PR, she was a. [music] journalist, which is how she met. Tracy. And in the early8s, they both. worked at a local newspaper. And the two. [music] got engaged fast. Then Carrie. called it off, unsure if like this is. really what she wanted, but Tracy kept. pursuing her. And in 1985, they tied the.

knot. [music] She was already pregnant. with her daughter Megan at the altar, which caused a rift with her. conservative Catholic [music] parents, especially her mom. But they had patched. things up since then, and everything. seemed to be fine. But the couple's. relationship had been rocky lately. Carrie had confided in loved ones that. she and Tracy weren't having sex [music]. and that he'd been cold and distant. She. suspected that he was cheating. [music]. He was always pulling late shifts at the.

same paper where they met. He ran. circulation and like worked in the dark. room. Sometime in the past year, I. [music] guess Carrie had drawn a line. fix things or she was going to be done. [music] done. And Tracy agreed. He told. Carrie that he was seeing a counselor. But then she found out [music] he. wasn't. And when she confronted him, her. family says that he deflected, [music]. claiming that he had a brain tumor, which he did not. Sorry. No. There are.

like little white lies and then there. are big like life lies. If you can lie. about a brain tumor, like you're willing. to do. >> anything but the right thing. Like. >> I agree, >> girl. Get out. [music]. >> Carrie didn't. And as bad as those lies. were, there's also a big difference. [music] between a lying husband and a. dangerous one. >> And to what I was saying earlier, nobody. had ever put Tracy [music] in that. column, the dangerous column. Like to. Molly, Tracy's basically another.

brother. She told our reporter Nah, that. he had taught her how to drive. He was. there to cheer her on at her like grade. school [music] basketball games. And. after all that time together, Molly. trusted him completely. But even still, his story isn't sitting. [music] right with the family. Like, it's just too bizarre. And every time. they poke at it, another hole opens up. including a [music] big one that opens.

up on Monday, December 11th, when Car's. family searches [music]. the Krueger House for themselves. In the parks and forests you love, there. are stories waiting to be told. I'm. Dillia Deira, the host of Park. Predators, [music] a true crime podcast. that reminds you sometimes the most. beautiful places hide the darkest. secrets. Listen now, wherever you get. your podcasts.

According to Rine County investigator. Tommy Sheret, who's working the case. now, when Car's [music] family goes to. search her house, they see that Car's. purse and her ID are gone. [music] But. damn near everything else she owns is. there, including a bunch of stuff that. Tracy said she had taken with her. Her. briefcase is tucked under a desk. Her. wedding ring is there in this like dish. on [music] the dresser and her curling. iron, her new makeup, her stomach. medication is there. She didn't even.

bring a winter coat, just her all-. weather jacket. And I mean, it's heavy. removable lining is still hanging in the. closet. So, even though she like brought. a coat, she didn't actually bring the. part that like keeps you warm. And she's. in Wisconsin. She's going to Wyoming. And all of this is happening in. December. Well, but I mean she obviously. isn't going to Wyoming, right? Like. >> right, there was no trade show. >> Somebody invented that [music] trip. But. more concerningly, of of all the things.

I mentioned, there is this big brown. suitcase that Tracy said she packed, that's in the attic along [music] with. all of her other luggage. But when Kathy. points that out, Tracy kind of. backpedals and he's like, "No, no, no, no. She didn't take her suitcase. She. took one of mine." Meanwhile, the only. money missing [music] is $500 that Tracy. says they kept in an emergency stash. hidden in a [music] basement air duct.

But say she grabbed the $500 and his. suitcase and a light jacket because she. was maybe headed somewhere warmer. How. did she get there? [music] There is no. flight record that they can find in her. name. She didn't take her car and no one. saw her leave that morning with [music]. anyone. Although, there is one thing. Their next door neighbor noticed a small. black car outside her own house at. around 4 or 4:30 a.m. This is about the.

time that Tracy says she's leaving. [music] And outside of that car, there. was this man standing beside it. But. this neighbor can't say for certain. whether it was for sure [music]. Wednesday the 6th or maybe it was like. some other morning that week. And. importantly, she never saw Carrie get. into that sitting [music] car. So even. if this was the same day, it might not. mean anything, [music]. >> right? >> And with so little to go on, the.

question shifts [music] from where. Carrie went to whether she went anywhere. at all. [music] and her family can't. help but look squarely at Tracy for. answers. [music]. I mean, his story just isn't adding up. And investigators are fully asking those. questions now, too. Problem is, [music]. the more times they ask, the more. versions they get of the same story. Tracy can't seem to keep straight. [music] who called Carrie that Tuesday.

night or what exactly they said. I mean, at one point he says maybe the trade. show was actually in Montana, not. Wyoming. In some versions, her manager. Jim was supposed to pick her up, right? But like, in at least one version, Carrie apparently wanted to borrow his. truck to get to the airport because her. car was in the shop. >> How would he have gotten anywhere while. she was gone? >> Yeah, that's why he said that he. couldn't lend it to her. And sometimes. Tracy like half remembers hearing a car.

outside that morning. other times no car. because he was like, [music] you know, sleepy or whatever. And depending on who. he's talking to, Carrie was due home. anytime from [music] Saturday, December. 9th to Tuesday, December 12th. And. listen, maybe you could chalk all that. up to a foggy memory. Last minute plans, a husband who is distant and half. listening. But here is the real clincher. for me. [snorts] It's what Tracy's own. father [music] tells police, which is. that Tracy mentioned to him Carrie's.

Wyoming trip on Monday, December 4th. This is a full [music] day before Carrie. supposedly even got that late night call. telling her that she needed to [music]. fill in. So that alleged Tuesday night trade show. call is looking [music] less and less. like the start of all of this and more. and more like something [music]. Tracy constructed as he worked backwards. to build a timeline [music] of Car's.

movements. >> So can anyone verify if Carrie got. [music] any calls that night? Well, no, because in 1989, their phone company. only itemized [music]. long-distance calls, and Jim's call, if. it came in, would have been local. So, that ends up being a dead end. But. detectives can still try to pick apart. Tracy's other claims about that night to. see where else they might find [music]. gaps, starting with Car's car. So Tracy.

had left her car at the shop [music] in. early December, claiming that it. wouldn't start, but mechanics couldn't. find anything wrong with it. [music] He. also told the dealership not to release. the car to anyone without calling him. first, even though it is Carrie's car. Now, at the time, Tracy had been driving. a new Ford [music]. pickup, and he had told pretty much. everybody that that truck was a loner. from a buddy. And that seemed to be even.

what he told [music] Carrie because the. weekend before she disappeared, she and. her sister Molly were in the truck with. Tracy when he got in a fender bender. And afterward, Carrie worried how his. friend was going to react to [music]. this. Well, come to find out, when. police run the plates, they learned that. Tracy actually [music] bought the truck. back in June in both his and Carrie's. [music]. name. >> This is too many lies. Now, when he is. pressed on the truck, [music]. he said that Carrie did know and keeping.

the purchase secret was her idea. Trouble with [music] that is. investigators learn that she wasn't with. him when he bought it. [music] And so, they think that her signature on the. paperwork doesn't match her other. signatures. >> So, they think it was forged. >> That's [music] the implication. And Carrie's family doesn't think that. she would have wanted [music] a new. truck anyway. The Krugergers were. already stretched thin financially, and. Tracy had just made it worse. Detectives.

find out after that he had been skipping. shifts and padding his time cards. The. paper had also recently knocked him from. salary to hourly, so he was one warning. away from getting fired. Did Carrie know. that? >> I mean, she knew money was tight, [music] but Tracy's job troubles, all. the rest of it, I don't know. Also, where is he going if he's not going to. work? work like he said he was like. patting his time card and stuff. No. idea. But I can tell you an excuse that. he leaned on when he wanted out of.

something. He would tell people Carrie. is away for work. [music] He has to. watch their daughter. Interestingly, a. few different people reportedly heard. some version of that excuse. [music] And. they only learned it wasn't true later. when they would apparently ask Carrie. like, "Hey, how was Alaska?" And she. would be like, "What do you mean. Alaska?" She had no idea what they were. talking about. >> So that lie was unraveling like before. she was even gone. >> Yeah. And Tracy actually pulled the same.

stunt days before she vanished. When. Carrie wanted to cancel a December 4th. doctor's appointment, he suggested like. just tell them that you're going to be. out of town. So, investigators have. every reason to doubt Tracy, >> which is why they work backward from the. last time anyone besides him saw Carrie, [music]. and that would have been Tuesday, December 5th. Gander Mountain kept its. [music] own phone records. And unlike.

the phone company, which only logged. those long-distance [music] calls, theirs show that Carrie made a string of. short calls home that morning. [music]. Now, it's not clear why since Tracy was. supposed to be at work. >> I mean, maybe that's why she's trying to. make sure he's where he's supposed to. be, which is not at home. >> Well, you know, maybe that's that or. like him going hourly. Maybe he she knew. he was home. I don't know. But at some. point, I do know that he does go to work. because she eventually did reach him at. the [music] newspaper. Now, this next.

bit comes from Tracy, who didn't explain. it until after the phone records came to. [music] light, but he claims that Carrie. asked him to bring over an envelope that. she had forgotten at home. So, he says. he drops it off at her job, but he isn't. sure what was in it because it was taped. shut. And he can't remember if he left. it with Carrie or if he left it with a. [music] receptionist. Except no one from. her job remembers him stopping by that. day. [music] So, like TBD to all of. that. But we know for sure though.

through her co-workers that Carrie is at. work that [music] afternoon and didn't. leave the office until 5:30, maybe 5:45, which by the way contradicts part of the. story Tracy had already given them. [music] According to him, Carrie got. home at 5:30 and then 5 minutes later. they ate dinner [music] spaghetti that. he'd made earlier. And at 6:05, he had. left to run errands. and he can [music]. rattle off every stop. Hardware store, grocery store, liquor store, two trips.

to his [music] office, and he was home. by 7:30. Megan was in bed by 8:00. [music] and then he took out the trash. And then at 8:15, he heard Carrie on the. phone gushing about how beautiful. Wyoming [music] is. >> I mean, or maybe Montana. >> Yeah. So, she then tells him about the. trip. So, then [music] at 8:30, he got. her suitcase for her from the attic. Maybe, but it's fair. >> [music]. >> She showered, packed, and then was in. bed by like 10:05. >> And he's got it down to like a 5minute. window. That's like really specific.

>> I know. Especially for what should have. been like a pretty ordinary night. Right. Right. >> But then he gets to Wednesday and his. black box becomes [music] just like a. blur. He sort of remembers Carrie. leaving, but he like didn't get up to. see her off. Can't tell you the exact. time, only that it was still dark. [music] thinks maybe he heard the back. door close and that's it. Not a word. from her since. >> So, did anyone say how she was at work. on that last day? Like, was she upset?

Was she happy? Like, was anything like. happening in her life? Could they tell? >> Well, it sounds like it was kind of a. crappy day for her. She had been upset. about a mistake in an ad and a colleague. noted that she [music] seemed. distracted. And then she left later than. usual. Late enough that one of her. co-workers teased her about like her. watch being [music] broken. But Carrie. just said that she'd been busy and told. her, "I'll [music] see you tomorrow.". Except there is no tomorrow. At least. not one anyone can account for. Now,

when Christmas passes with no word from. Carrie, it seems like detectives are. coming around to what the family [music]. has feared all along, that Carrie met. with foul play and Tracy might be behind. it. So, as 1989 winds down, they bring. their top suspect [music] in for a. polygraph. But the morning of the. polygraph test, Tracy says that he's not. feeling good. Car's sister, [music]. Kathy, babysitting Megan while he is at.

the station, isn't buying that. To her, it is a [music] flatout act. But he. takes the test anyway, and the results. are inconclusive. So they schedule a second [music] test, one for January 5th. But then Tracy cancels. and they would never get another [music]. chance to give him an additional. polygraph because something unbelievable.

happened. Something I haven't seen play. out in any other true crime case ever. The day after Tracy's never taken second. polygraph, he is at work when he glances. at a newspaper article about his missing. wife [music] and he just collapses. He's. taken to the hospital, but the Tracy who.

arrives there says that it's 1979. [music]. and that the last 10 years of his life. are just gone. >> What do you mean gone? Gone. Gone how? >> The way he tells it in his mind, it is. literally 1979. He's a teenager, which. means [music] what wife? He and Carrie. didn't meet until 1982. >> And their daughter, >> what kid? Megan wasn't born until ' 86.

But it is only that one decade he lost. Everything before and everything that is. to come picking up at the hospital he. says is perfectly intact. So to be. clear, >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. [laughter]. >> No, you got it. You can repeat it, but. you got it. The only part of his life he. can't remember is the part that actually. matters to [music] this case and this. missing woman who he was married to but. doesn't remember. Doctors run a battery.

[music] of tests, but they can't find. any physical cause of this memory loss. There is no sign of a stroke, nothing. [music] They do notice Tracy seems to. think that he's getting treated for a. crushed finger. Like that that's why he. thinks he's at the hospital. And it was. an injury that he had gotten like years. earlier. >> Years like I don't know 1979. >> Literally it it was. But believe it or. not, the people evaluating him are. mostly in agreement that he's [music]. not faking it.

They think he has what they refer to as. hysterical amnesia. And they're hopeful. that his memory will return in [music]. time, basically. And they say it's. already starting to like a couple stray. flashes of him, Carrie, and Megan. [music] And to one of his counselors, that's exactly what makes it seem so. real. Like the way that his memories are. surfacing tracks so closely that the. counselor believes that he would have. had to research like how this type of.

memory loss would work for like. thousands of hours to fake it so. convincingly. I mean, [laughter]. to be fair, he apparently had a lot of. time off of work. So, like, >> but she doesn't she doesn't think that. he's capable of hurting Carrie [music]. either. Like, to her, he just seems sad. and confused by the whole situation. But. Tracy himself isn't even totally ruling. out the possibility that something. happened or he was involved. >> What. >> according to police reports, he tells a.

doctor that like maybe he was involved. in Car's disappearance. He just can't. remember. But it's not like he's. confessing. The doctor's read on it is. that Tracy is just like afraid of that. possibility because he can't. >> Because he can't remember. >> Right now, investigators, despite what. doctors are saying, like they're not. buying a word of this. Medical staff can. insist all day long that this kind of. amnesia is real, that after something. traumatic, the brain can shut down to.

protect itself, [music] and police still. land in the same place. The timing of. this is just too convenient. >> Yeah, but they put Tracy's hospital stay. [music] to good use, and they finally. get a search warrant for the house. Wait, what have they been doing this. whole time? I don't know why this part. took so long, but by the time they get. in there, Tracy had already done some. redecorating. So, you know, because they. waited, he had swapped out their barely.

used mattress [music] for a water bed. Never mind that they had redone that. whole bedroom like months earlier. Never. mind that Carrie hated water beds. He. had talked about getting the carpets. [music] cleaned, too, but you can't. scrub a whole house. And detectives. cover every inch with a camera rolling. We actually got the video of this. Now, you don't see much that's like, you.

know, incriminating. And the walkthrough. is almost entirely [music] silent as. they pan across a very livedin house. [music] frozen in time highlighting. anything that they think is important, like a Hustler magazine that hit news. stands after [music] Carrie vanished. with an article about a hitman who. refused a polygraph [music] and a couple. of shotguns in the basement, one loaded. [music] They also scrape a red sandy. residue off the ceiling of Tracy's.

truck. They grab some documents. And in. the bedroom, they peel away [music]. strips of wallpaper marked with. suspicious reddish brown colored stains. [music]. But more important than what they find. is what they can't find. [music] So. remember the $500 that Tracy says Carrie. took from their emergency stash on her. way out. That money that they kept in. the basement [music]. air duct, it's not there.

>> I mean, so that tracks the money isn't. there. >> No, no, not the money. [music]. There is no air duct. The hiding spot. doesn't even exist. And you know what. else is missing? Any sign that Carrie. was planning to leave. It is the. opposite. There is the decorated. Christmas tree, a half-finished pine. cone wreath that she was making, and a. long handwritten list of gifts that she. still wanted to buy for everyone, including her daughter Megan. [music].

And speaking of Megan, while Tracy is. hospitalized, the O'Brien's are trying. for temporary custody, [music]. but he won't sign off on it. >> Who's he? >> Like, Tracy won't sign off on it. Like. he says that he's just a teenage boy. basically and he needs his parents to. help him handle this complicated adult. situation. >> I mean he doesn't even remember having a. child. So like why does he have any say. in who's taking care of her where she. lives? >> Amnesia or not, he's still legally her.

father. And so like by the book of the. law that apparently outranks anything. that the O'Brien's can [music] claim. So, he gets supervised visits and once. he's out of the hospital and back at his. parents' place in [music] late January, Megan is with him. Gary's family tries. to stay in her life. [music] But the few. visits they managed were rare, brief, and honestly awkward. So, within a. couple of years, even those stopped. And.

they don't just lose Megan. [music]. As time drags on, they also lose faith. in the Burlington Police Department. [music] And I'm not trying to Monday. morning quarterback, but during our. reporting, I kept noticing this bizarre. dichotomy. On paper, detectives were clearly. suspicious of Tracy, but there was a. lack of urgency with certain things, as. if they had already decided that he was. telling the [music] truth. Like for.

instance, a second mortgage they find. out [music] was taken out on the Krueger. home in October of 1989. We're talking. just like months before she goes. missing. And it was taken [music] out in. both Carrie and Tracy's names. The. paperwork was slow, so it didn't hit. Carrie's social security number until. after she vanished. That was a hearts stopper because. activity like that like could have. signaled that she was actually out there. using it. But then the police like.

traced it to the loan and they figure. like, okay, mystery [music] solved. But. it seemed like they breeze past the. obvious question. [music] Did Carrie. actually sign it? Did Carrie know about. it? The O'Briens don't think so. They. believe that her signature might have. been forged, >> but they will probably never know. because Burlington PD didn't pull the. documents or even bother to talk to the. notary. Well, and they had a forgery. suspicion already about the truck. paperwork. Like, why would you not.

follow up on this? >> It is baffling. And by the way, the. truck is a whole another problem because. by the time the department requested. those sales documents [music] from the. DMV, it was too late. The originals had. been shredded. So, they were stuck with. copies of them. So, handwriting analysis. were all inconclusive. You generally. can't authenticate a signature off of a. copy, >> right? You need to know like how hard it. was pressed. There's like a lot of like. specific things. >> And paperwork isn't the only thing that.

was fumbled. [music] A few months after. Carrie vanished, deputies in a. neighboring county found [music]. bloody men's clothes, including pajamas. and a pullover. This is like 16 miles. from Burlington. >> [music]. >> The PJs had two bullet holes near the. underarm, and the crime lab determined a. gun had been fired at close range. Now, Carrie's sister thought that the top. looked like one that Tracy might wear,

and she believed that Carrie sometimes. wore his pajamas, although I don't think. that was ever actually confirmed to be. fair. Either way, that [music] evidence. is gone, too. There is no record of the. blood being tested and it doesn't seem. like Burlington [music] like even kept. the evidence. Oh, and you know what else. is gone? That red sandy substance that. police [music] found on the ceiling of. Tracy's truck. But this one is different.

because we know exactly how it [music]. disappeared. A detective just threw it. out. What? He said he was cleaning. [music] house, getting rid of things. that police didn't need for the. investigation. >> Um, okay. >> Don't eat it. >> How would he know what they need or. don't need? It's an unsolved [music]. case. >> And it hadn't been tested. >> Like literally, >> to be clear, >> anything could be important. Anything. could be relevant. >> You [music] know, to add to this, there. is a rumor that that same detective was.

a family friend of the Krueger, [music]. like Tracy's family. So, you can imagine how that sits with. the O'Brien, especially since, like I. said, he tossed it before it was ever. tested and the family had actually lined. up a soil expert to test it. >> So, the family lined up the soil expert. >> Yeah. Because they're basically working. the case themselves. They spearheaded. search efforts. They keep an eye on.

Tracy. [music] Kathy even puts her. prosecutor job on hold and moves home. for months to run [music] point on this. They hire a PI and Carrie's mom collects. [music] thousands of signatures. petitioning the attorney general to move. the case to a different agency. [music]. And they do get some help from the. state, but it doesn't sound like it was. much of an upgrade. According to. Carrie's sister, Colleen, an agent. suggested Carrie ran off to join [music].

the circus or the Ice Capades because. women do stuff like that. You know, Ashley, we've covered a lot of missing. person's cases and a lot of those. [music] missing persons are women. Have. we ever considered looking at [music]. like. ice capes? >> We should. I I hadn't thought of it. What a brilliant idea from this man. >> I'm assuming it's a man. [laughter]. >> Sorry. But also, what. >> I know, I know. Now, listen, tips do.

come in occasionally [music]. that will get looked at. And there. actually was one tip about Tracy's. brother that I thought was interesting. Apparently, he had been telling people. that Tracy quote blew her away. And when. police confront him about this, cuz you. got to. >> Yeah. He admits he said it, but he. swears it [music] was just a tasteless. joke. He agrees to avoid stress test, and [music] I know it's not the most. reliable tool, but I think it's worth.

noting. They ask him if he helped get. rid of Carrie's [music] body, and if. Tracy ever told him that he killed. [music] her, he says no to both. He. passes the first one. Did you help get. rid of her body? He fails the second one. Did Tracy ever. tell you that he killed her? >> Now, this next thing isn't like [music]. a tip. In fact, I don't really know what.

it means, but every so often, something. strange [music] lands in the O'Brien's. mailbox. Most of it's like harmless. junk. [music]. But one delivery, they get this fake. severed [music] finger. I'm sorry, what? Whether this is a sick prank or a real. threat, nobody can say. But even like. with this stuff coming in, like nothing. moves the needle. So [music] years pass.

Tracy and Megan get a fresh start. eventually a few hours [music] away. He. remarries. life keeps moving forward for. him while Carrie just stays frozen in. time. The O'Brien have no [music] doubt. that she was murdered. But Tracy tells. Journal Times reporter Jane [music]. Ryder that he thinks Carrie is out there. somewhere. Although he still can't. remember the disappearance or like.

anything from the decade before it. [music]. >> So his memory never came back. >> He says no. And he blames it [music] on. a stroke, which by the way, like to be. clear, I said this earlier, but in case. you missed it, a stroke was ruled out by. the doctors. >> I [music] don't get how he's saying. anything if it's like all a blank. Like, how do you know she ran off even if you. truly don't even remember knowing this. woman? >> Well, with his like memories gone or no. memories of his own, he says that he's. relying on what his loved ones have told.

[music] him. and he basically just. doesn't think that he's capable of. whatever they're accusing him of. [music] And listen, his daughter Megan. believed that. I mean, she still does as. far as I know. And listen, honestly, I. cannot begin to imagine what it's like. to walk in [music] her shoes. She. declined to speak with us for this. episode, which I understand because. [music]. >> there is no good outcome for her in this. case, and it's not a case to her. This. is her life. And I just want to give.

that a moment for everyone because I. think it's really easy to judge and. that's not what's needed here. Empathy. [music] is you are innocent until proven. guilty. I don't want to sugarcoat the. facts, [music] but like try to put. yourself in someone else's shoes for. just a minute. She is up against a world. where most people don't see this case. the way that she does. [music]. And it's not her job to fight. She has. to do what is best for herself. And I. believe that with every fiber of my. being. Like as a mother myself,

>> if I were Carrie, if I were gone, all I. would want is for my baby to be okay. >> So Megan [music] has to do what will. make her be okay. And listen, she was. really little when this happened. So, I. don't know if they were even able to. talk to her or or any of that, but I. know that as she gets older, she does. speak with investigators because around. 2013, [music] the O'Brien's finally got. their wish. A Burlington officer. transferred to the Rine County Sheriff's.

Office [music] and ultimately took. Carrie's file with her. Now, unfortunately, Carrie's mom didn't live. to see it. Neither [music]. did her father or some of her siblings. But at least now there are real. resources behind her case and a team. ready to dig in like [music] Lieutenant. Brian Vans sock. And if that name rings. a bell, it's because we have worked with. him before. He's the reason that you are. hearing this story [music]. now. He asked if we would cover it. The.

way he sees it, Car's family deserves. answers. >> [music]. >> So, to go back to 2013, one of the first. things these investigators do is they go. back to the people closest to Carrie. And that means sitting down with [music]. Megan and she tells them that she barely. remembers her mom, [music] but she had a. childhood full of love with her dad. Tracy was a good father, she says, [music] and that's what she has to base. things off of. And according to police.

reports, the little her dad did share. with her about her mom wasn't good. He. told Megan that her mother was cold and. uncaring, [music]. that she got tired of being a parent and. walked out. And Megan didn't question. it. He rarely brought Carrie up at all. beyond that. And Megan didn't push. So. most of what she knows she has [music]. pieced together online. Meanwhile, the. one consistent in her life was her dad, [music] Tracy. He is the one who took. care of her and moved them somewhere new.

when Burlington got to be too much. But. I will say that move wasn't random. They. landed [music] in the same spot as. Tracy's old counselor, that woman who. was so sure that his amnesia was real. [music]. >> What? Here is what the Rine County case. review report says about that interview. with Megan. Quote, Megan said that Tracy had moved.

to Lacrosse a few years after Carrie. went missing to get away from it all. Also, his [music] therapist/friend. was moving up there and he moved up. there to be closer to her. [music]. In fact, they have homes on the same. piece of property [music] to this day. Megan says she even called the counselor. mom for a while. Okay. And homes on the same property.

>> Yes. But it [music] does not seem like. they were romantically involved. And. just to be clear, she is not the woman. that he like went on to marry later. They described the relationship more. like a surrogate family. But Carrie's. family didn't get that kind of place in. Megan's life, though. Tracy told Megan. that the O'Brien had stalked and. harassed him. He even claimed that. they'd broken in and stolen her mom's. wedding ring. But here is the lie we can.

outright catch him in. Because in 2015, on the 26th anniversary of Car's. disappearance, [music]. Tracy speaks with a sergeant and he. admits that he pawned both of their. rings when [music] he needed cash. Now, we reached out to Tracy for this episode. and he never got back to us. But I want. you to hear him tell his story [music]. in his words. So, let me play parts of. that 2015 interview for you.

>> My impression is that she was a a very. wonderful person. >> Okay. And where did you get that. impression from? >> From friends and family. >> Okay. So, where would Megan have gotten. the impression that she was kind of a. cold, uncaring, and selfish person? Um I that I'm not sure. I don't know. You'd have to ask her. >> Well, well, we did ask her. >> Mhm. >> And she said that that's kind of the.

impression that you had given her. >> Well, I don't know how she interpreted. [snorts] that. And I'm not going to pit. myself against my daughter. Everything I. know about the case is after the fact, >> right? >> There's nothing I have no memory from. before then. So everything is had to be. relearned. >> When you were getting a a handle back. that that was your reality, what what. were you thinking? What were your. feelings about that? >> Um very overwhelmed.

>> Okay. >> You know that you know it was all so new. to me. I mean just even the fact that I. had a wife and child was astounding. And do you think that you kind of. recalled some of that or is that stuff. that you're saying that you only people. told you? >> Well, after I had the stroke and. everything everything was that was told. me was astounding. >> Okay. Okay. >> You know, I was just just baffled, you.

know, you know, because I didn't believe. I was at that age. And I mean, this is. all in in your report. It's all in the. interview. I know. >> Yeah, >> I know that it's all in interviews, but. it's been 26 years. I I'm sure that. you've been asked this question. repeatedly through the years. What do. you think happened? >> As I've mentioned before, probably 10. times to Sunday, I believe she left. >> Why Why would she leave?

>> We don't know. Um, looking back and. talking to people after the fact, I. think there were some. psychological issues that she was. suffering from. >> Okay. >> Um, I [clears throat] think maybe manic. depressives and granted um, psychologists cannot. diagnose a person without seeing that. person, but getting opinions from people. in the field. Um they raised that as a. strong possibility that yes, she did.

have issues. >> Okay. But but what do you think happened. to her after she left? I mean, she's. never used her social security number. She's never used a credit card. She's. never gotten a driver's license. >> I don't know if but obviously if she. did, she didn't use that given name. I. mean I. it's at that time it was so easy to do. My feeling is if she were dead, somewhere that body would have shown up. some place or another, >> right? >> Somewhere there would have to be a body.

>> now. Again, we know that doctors confirm. Tracy did not have a stroke [music]. in 1990, but that is the story he's. sticking with. So, investigators decide. that they're going to put this to the. test again. They hand his old hospital. records [music] to a new neurologist for. a fresh read. And she agrees with the. [music] 1990s clinicians. No stroke, no. medical reason for any of [music] it.

But she disagrees in another part. She. thinks that he could be faking. [music]. A forensic psychiatrist goes even. further. To him, this all sounds like. BS. [music] Sure, trauma can do a number. on a person, but it doesn't just reset a. grown man's memory [music] back to his. teens and keep it blank for now decades. >> And the amnesia isn't the only thing. back under a microscope. Because Tracy's. also still leaning on this idea that.

Carrie was in the middle of a depressive. episode, >> a manic depressive, [music] he said, >> right? Though these days we would call. that bipolar disorder. And remember, after she went missing, he had brought. police a note from Car's physician. saying that she was being treated for. depression and she might be having. suicidal thoughts, right? Like that's. what cranked everything into high gear. >> Well, guess what? Apparently, nobody. ever asked that doctor if he actually. wrote that note because when new. investigators go check, he's like, "No,

definitely not. I never treated anyone. for [music] depression." But Tracy won't. let this idea go. Even before he lost. his memory, he was telling Car's family. that she was depressed. [music] And then. there's the counselor who would go on to. live on the same property as Tracy. Back. in 1990, she told police that she had. Car's diary [music] and that it showed a. lot of anger towards Car's family, her.

mom specifically, going all the way back. to when Carrie was younger. >> And when is this diary from? >> That's the thing. Tracy actually hands. the diary over himself eventually. Like. he wants police to have it. He thinks it. proves that Carrie was unhappy with her. family. But when they look at the diary, it's [music] from Carrie's senior year. of high school. >> Uh so we have grown older. >> Mhm. >> But I I would love your read on this. I. just had a senior in high school in my.

>> drama. Everything is drama. I And I know. you know this. We read, we were reading. my granted sophomore journal. >> Oh my god. >> On the plane when we were on tour, not. senior year, but pretty damn close. >> And there is literally my favorite part. >> Our favorite there's one page that says. like, "Oh my god, I had the best day. ever. Like things are amazing. My life's. going to be amazing. I am like. >> I am on such an upward trajectory." And. you literally turn the page and what. does it say? Ashley Flowers. >> I [laughter].

saying. >> I without any reservations wish I was. dead [music]. >> in like Sharpie on the page and then you. just turn the page and you're like so I. was talking to so and so the other day. Can you imagine if like I go missing and. Eric takes that to he's like obviously. she wanted to die. Like that's what it. >> it's it's bonkers. >> So the note from the doctor is not real. >> Stroke's ruled [music] out. Stroke is. ruled out. The amnesia is now in serious. doubt, >> which to be honest has been for me since.

day one. But okay. >> Yeah. And still Tracy won't budge from. the theory that he has pushed [music]. since day one. His wife left on her own. The way I see it, there are two versions. of Tracy that [music] cannot be. reconciled. One murdered Carrie, faked amnesia, then. raised their daughter on the crulest. possible lie that her own mom abandoned. her. The other is a man who is innocent.

[music] but has been unfairly living. under a cloud of suspicion ever since. she disappeared. But across that divide [music]. is Megan, who's slowly reconnected with. some of Carrie's siblings, [music] and. they have gotten to show her a different. side of Carrie. Not a mom who got tired. of motherhood and left, but one who. loved her daughter more than anything. I. mean, talk about a rock and a hard place. for her. I mean, either Tracy killed her. mom and lied to her her entire life or.

Carrie really did choose to leave or not. so fast, there is a third option that. somebody [music] else could have. murdered Carrie. And that might sound. like [music] out of the blue, like some. kind of Hail Mary pass. Like, sure, anything's possible, >> but is it probable? Well, hold your. horses because it turns out there was a. man who lived just a few doors down from.

the Krueger who police believe may have. been a serial killer. I want to back up because this thread. started decades [music] ago, back in. January of 1990. We're talking weeks. a. month tops after Carrie disappeared. >> That is when [music] police got a call. from a state parole/probation. agent. [music]. >> She had been watching the news segment.

about Carrie when this familiar face. just like flashed across the screen. It. was Carrie's [music] close friend and. neighbor, this woman named Audrey. And. this agent knew Audrey because [music]. she was shacked up with a violent felon. on this person's case load. this. 48-year-old man named Philip Andrew Fox. And Phil was no joke. His record. stretched [music] back to the early. 1960s in California when he shot and.

killed his own uncle during an argument. Then, according to the Torrance Herald, he abducted a teen at gunpoint and he. got caught. But while out on bond, he. tried to rob a gas station and shot the. attendant who survived. Now, he plead. guilty to manslaughter and attempted. robbery and got out of prison in the. early 1970s. But by the time Phil moved in down the. block from Carrie, he was a suspect. [music] in five other murders, including. his wife's. She, his wife, [music] had.

been killed in what looked like a. robbery in Dayton, Ohio in 1988. [music]. But police strongly suspected Phil and. his nephew because nothing about the. robbery seemed random. Phil's wife. managed this fast food restaurant and. she had been robbed before while making. a deposit. And she told friends that she. thought Phil was behind it. So her. company moved her to a new location, [music] but then months later she was. dead, shot multiple times in the chest.

and face. And by the way, no one is. pulling this stuff out of thin air. or. Phil's nephew actually admitted to. pulling the trigger on what he said was. Phil's orders, but the confession got. tossed [music] out on a technicality. Now, the O'Briens didn't know most of. this [music] back then. The world was a. wild place without the internet and your. ability to Google your neighbors. But. Phil was a hard guy to miss. He was.

quiet, but he dressed loud. [music]. He and Audrey spent time at the. Krueger's. And Car's sister Molly still. remembers his three-piece suits and the. rings that he wore on every finger. But. it wasn't Phil's personality [music]. that made the parole officer wary, not. even his criminal record. It was what. [music] Phil did on December 5th, the. last day anyone saw Carrie alive. >> [music]. >> This officer said that when she called.

Phil, he sounded nervous and he said. that he had to get to Virginia right. away to take care of his mother. But. then a couple of days later, that story. [music] shifted. Now it was Ohio and. Virginia for like some business deal. So. Phil left that [music] night, came back. within the week, and then spent months. bouncing between Wisconsin [music] and. other states. Car's brother Pat told us. that Phil and Audrey [music] even showed. up at his parents' house around New.

Year's while the family was deep [music]. in the search for Carrie. Now, Phil. eventually landed in West Virginia where. he married an older woman with serious. health problems, sealing the deal with. his dead wife's wedding ring. [music]. And before long, her kids were convinced. that Phil was after the family's money, allegedly poisoning their mother to get. it. And they all noticed the same. pattern like she would get violently. ill, go into the hospital and recover.

and then crash again the moment she came. [music] home to Phil. Now she eventually. had a heart attack, survived though, and. after Phil attacked one of her. daughters, she divorced him. Then he. took a job at an adult daycare. [laughter]. >> Do they not run background checks? and a. 63-year-old woman went missing from that. same center. Phil wasn't on staff by. then, but he had worked there while she. was a resident, so I mean, they probably.

crossed paths, which puts him on. police's radar for that, too. Now, in. 2016, Phil got arrested in West Virginia. on something totally unrelated, an arson. [music]. and insurance fraud scheme. And that is. when Rine County sees their opening. With Phil already in trouble, they make. this trip down south to ask him about. Carrie face [music] to face. But he's no. help. He claims he barely remembers her.

or [music] Tracy, that it was all just. so long ago. Still, he swears he never. hurt Carrie and turns it around on. police, accusing them of trying to just. like pin another crime on him. But Rine. [music] has one last move to play. An. extraordinary offer for him. If Phil. will show them [music] where Carrie's. body is, they will make his arson and. fraud charges go [music] away, and they. won't charge him with anything related.

to Carrie's death. >> That's like two major get out of jail. free cards. >> It's a sweetheart deal. Immunity in. Car's case is no real gain, right? like. he's not like charged with anything. there, but like to make the fraud and. arson stuff go away. Like that would be. huge for him. But through his attorney, Phil turns that deal down. He says, "Look, I wish I could take this deal. I. wish I could help. I would if I could, but [music] I didn't kill Carrie, so I. don't know where she is." And that's.

when the Phil Fox door swings shut. Or. at least on this case [music] anyway. If. he was involved, I think he probably. would have jumped at the chance to help. [music] himself. But if Phil does have any answers about. [music] Carrie, those died with him in. 2025, which [music] for law enforcement today. puts them right back where they started, Tracy, [music]. as investigator Sheret told us, every.

road leads back to him. Carrie's. surviving siblings [music] feel the same. way. They don't doubt that Phil was. dangerous, but to them he was a red. herring. And the real threat to Carrie. was inside her house, [music] not a few. doors down. And most everyone seems to. agree with them. At least the people we. spoke with. They just can't settle on a. how or a why. Some wonder if [music] Car's flu-l like. symptoms meant that she could have been. slowly poisoned over time. Or maybe.

there was a fight that boiled over. Her. sister Molly overheard them arguing that. last weekend. It was [music] low. intense. Maybe Carrie found out about. the truck that was bought in her name or. [music]. his troubles at work. Maybe she. confronted him. But that's all. speculation. Her remains have never been. found. So, for now, no one can prove. what happened or who's responsible,

but Carrie's case is still [music]. active. Officially, she is a missing. person, even though she's been legally. declared dead. And since nearly every. Tracy related theory centers on his. truck or the Krueger's house, that is. where investigators have largely focused. their [music] recent efforts. They have. searched the family's former home and. they've even tracked down Tracy's. [music] old Ford pickup. They actually. brought out the like goodest little boy.

with the best little sniffer to check. out the truck. This is a cadaavver dog, mind you. His name [music] is Taser. >> You have a picture of him. >> I will do you one better. The sheriff's. office actually gave us the footage of. like when they brought him out. >> You can tell how excited Taser is to be. on the job. He's like circling around. the truck [music] and right at the front. wheel well he alerts. He's letting his. handler know like, "Hey, I can smell.

human remains here." Lieutenant Vans. called this hit the strongest indication. he's ever seen. And Taser does it twice. more in the same spot. Meanwhile, Cadaavver Dogs also alerted inside the. [music] house. once in the stairs. leading up to the attic and then again. down [music] in the basement. And this past January, there was this. tip from a guy who used to work for.

[music] a flooring company. And that tip. sent them back to the same basement. So, get a load of this. Around the time. Carrie vanished, [music] this contractor. guy, he was sent to Burlington to lay. carpet in a basement for Tracy Krueger. [music]. When he got down to the basement, he. says he saw something odd. There was. this like fresh [music] patch of. concrete about 3 ft by 6 ft. And Tracy. told him that it was like drainage.

repair, but drain tiles run along the. walls like this guy knows. And this was. like smacked out in the middle of the. room. Now, the carpet guy reported this. to Burlington PD back in 1991, [music] but they brushed it off at the. time because the company's records dated. the job to November 1989, which is. nearly a month before Carrie. disappeared. [music]. >> But here's the thing. Even decades. later, the tipster recalls what happened.

[music] vividly. And he still remembers. how antsy Tracy seemed [music] to just. like get the floor covered. How Megan. wandered downstairs and got into his. tools. [music] And when he hollered for. Tracy to come grab her before she hurt. herself, Tracy apologized and explained. that he was busy cleaning out his. bedroom because he was having a new. [music] bed delivered. But Tracy didn't. buy the water bed until after Carrie was. already gone,

>> which [music] makes investigators. question those company records. Maybe. they're wrong. Maybe the November date. is when Tracy like first [music] called. for an estimate or maybe it's when he. booked the job. Who knows? >> All they know is they need to go back to. [music] the basement, which they do. >> This time they bring a cadaabver dog and. [music] ground penetrating radar. The. dog alerts in multiple places, including. two in the basement, and the radar gets. a hit near one of them. Something is.

there, just a few feet beneath [music]. the concrete. Watching it unfold, Lieutenant Van Sock. and investigator Susan Connley are. [music] on pins and needles. Years of. bad leads, dead ends, searches that turn. up nothing, but like here they are. possibly standing right above Carrie. But when they pull up the carpet, the. floor [music] is solid. There's no. patch. There's no repair. There is. nothing that looks like what the man.

described. So they bring the guy back to. the house just to like see it for. himself. [music]. And he takes one look and he goes, "Well, like, well, there's your problem. This isn't the basement that I worked. in.". >> Then then, sir, what basement did you. work in? That is the mystery everyone's. trying to solve right now. It's part of. the reason that they were willing to. share so much information with us so we. could pass it on to crime junkies. They. think that there might be a house out.

there that they never knew to look at. [music] Maybe a relative's place. somewhere that police had no reason to. search. If this guy's memory is solid, that slab of concrete is out there. somewhere. We just don't know where. [music]. >> Okay, but how does that align with the. whole Tracy upstairs clearing out the. bedroom thing? Like. >> that only makes sense if it's their. house. >> I keep spiraling on that. The bed says. that he's in the Krueger house. The. floor says he wasn't. Both can't be.

true, >> right? >> So, Lieutenant Vans went and checked the. basement at Tracy's [music] parents'. house, grandparents places. >> Start with those. >> No match. He even sends the contractor. photos of another relative's house. Still [music]. nothing. Wherever that basement is, they haven't. found it. So, I had an idea. I was like, have him like sketch out the layout of. the basement that he remembers. [music]. >> And I actually have it to show all of.

the crime junkies. I need everyone to. spread this [music] far and wide. It'll. be on the blog post. I'm going to put it. on social, too, so it'll be easy to. share. Maybe this will jog someone's. memory because it does not match the. Krueger's basement. So, their basement. is like a square that is like cordoned. off into like four sections with areas. of carpet, concrete, and vinyl [music]. tile. And the stairs kind of come like. right down in the middle of the room. >> Okay. >> The basement that the contractor. remembers is simpler. [music].

Like there are just two areas. There is. concrete on one side, carpet on the. other. [music] The patch he keeps coming. back to is inside that carpeted half. And the stairs aren't in the middle at. all. They're like in the very corner. with a washer and dryer and sink right. beside them. Like I said, I'm going to. put these pictures up everywhere. Blog, social, I need you guys to share them. And I need everyone's help with one more. [music] thing. So Tracy's whole story. hangs on this idea that Carrie's.

supervisor or someone called her that. Tuesday night. [music] And for years. they always thought that those records. wouldn't exist like the phone records of. that because the phone company only. recorded long-distance calls. Right. >> Right. [music] And the manager's call. like would have been local. He was like. right there. >> Except what they learned recently is. that [music] back then the phone company. drew its billing lines by municipal. boundaries, not the [music] distance. So. two neighbors could land in separate.

zones and. >> based on like how it was zoned. >> Yeah. And a call between them could. count as long distance, meaning it would. show [music] up on the phone bill. >> Problem is, >> I mean, they can't get the bills. anymore. It's been so long. >> That's not the problem. No, they. actually still have the bills. The. problem is they can't decipher them. Those old bills basically read like. hieroglyphics. So, they're looking for. somebody out there who worked for. Wisconsin Bell in the late8s [music] and.

know their way around these bills. So, if that's you or if you know somebody, this is your time to shine. You could. help the Rine County Sheriff's Office. [music] solve a case and they want to. hear from you. Actually, they would. appreciate any information you have. about Carrie. And so, you can call them. at 262-9308254. [music]. And you can also call the Crimestoppers. of Rine County if you want to remain. anonymous at 888-636-9330.

Crime Junkie is an audiochuck. production. I think Chuck would approve.