Did Early Errors Bury the Truth in Bonnie's Unsolved Disappearance?

Hi Crime Junkies, I'm your host Ashley. Flowers. >> Brit. >> And we're back for part two of Bonnie's. story. If you missed last episode, pause, go back, you got to know where. we've been to know where we're going. Because. >> [music]. >> where we left off, I'm sure it's easy. for you to understand why people have. been suspicious of Bonnie's husband. since she went missing. >> [music]. >> in 1997. Bonnie and Rick's son even. admitted to us that for a portion of his. life growing [music] up, he wondered if. his dad could have done something. because he had everybody in his ear. telling him [music] as much. He said he.

would even be willing to accept that his. dad did it if police could prove it. Show him any evidence, even a theory. [music]. of how that makes actual sense and show. him that they've looked into everyone. [music] else. But they didn't. So we. tried and I think there is an entirely. different [music] side to this story. that hasn't been told. Until now. When I say that police never really. looked into anyone else because they.

were so suspicious of Rick, I also want. to be clear that I don't think they ever. really did a thorough enough look at. Rick to justify their suspicions. They. never searched his house in those early. years. They only searched it in 2000. when Rick was getting the house ready to. sell. The police I guess had heard that. he changed out the carpet and there. might have been a stain on the subfloor. So they got a warrant, ripped up the. carpet, tested [music] the stain, but it. wasn't any kind of bodily fluid. They. didn't do any kind of forensic testing.

in the garage, which like in my mind, if. your theory is that he followed her, wouldn't it make sense that something. happened in the garage? No one even. bothers to check for that. >> So they're really just basing their. suspicions on Rick on like what? The. fact that she wanted a divorce and the. number one mom necklace that Gretchen. gave investigators. Like that's not a. lot. And I think the fact that he knew. where to look for her and on the route. that we know she drove home. And also, I. didn't mention this yet, but on phone.

records, Bonnie had a cell phone with. her [music] and Rick said that he tried. to call her when she was missing, but. police say that the home phone records. don't show any calls and the cell phone. provider says that there had been no. activity on Bonnie's cell since like a. day or two before she went missing. But. the problem I have with this is they. never got Rick's cell phone records. And. when we asked to see Bonnie's records to. prove that there were no unanswered. incoming calls, the police said they. don't have them. They said there was. like some kind of issue getting the.

records from the phone company, so they. were just told verbally by her provider, which I don't know. I've seen enough. human error over the years that like. that is not going to like convince it or. like I'm not going to convict someone. for that based on that. >> Well, yeah, and I also wonder what the. cell provider actually logged. Like did. unanswered incoming calls even register. back then? I mean, there's so many. questions. >> I don't know for sure since we could not. obviously get the actual records and I. know every provider is different and.

we're talking 1997, that's a whole. different beast. But I mean, I've seen. in other true crime cases that date back. to the '90s where back then it would. only log the calls that would be charged. and you were only charged if you placed. the call or answered the incoming call. >> was like an actual connected call. >> Now, the other thing that I see police. spend time asking Rick about in like the. transcripts that we got is a financial. motive for wanting his wife gone. Before. Bonnie went missing, the couple cashed. out on a life insurance policy for like.

$18,000. and they spent a lot of time talking. about this check that came for that. It. came after Bonnie disappeared, but it's. like not spicy at all to me. Rick had. taken out a loan against his like profit. sharing plan at his company and without. getting to the weeds on this, it would. basically be like taking out money. against your 401k or something and he. was thinking about changing jobs, but if. he changed jobs before it was paid off, there would be this really big penalty. So they cashed out the life insurance. policy that would by the way was on Rick. and they did it together. People knew.

that Bonnie was aware of it. >> Okay. Some say that she had to kind of. be like talked into it, but she was. aware of it. >> And like it's a financial decision. Maybe she legitimately did need to be. talked into it, right? >> Yeah, and investigators confirmed that. the money did go to paying off that. profit sharing thing. [music] So it's. not like he's making money off her going. missing. >> Did she have any other life insurance. policies? She did. She had two and they. totaled like 50 grand, but those are. life insurance. Like you get paid out. when someone is dead, not if someone.

just goes missing. So while he does end. up getting that, he doesn't see a dime. of that until he has Bonnie declared. dead seven years later in 2004. Yeah, I. guess I don't think money is. like the driving thing here and no. matter what happened, right? >> Agreed. I mean, they never had a lot of. money, not before Bonnie went missing, not after, [music]. but they also didn't have money. problems. They lived within their means, they tried to take care of their kids. and Rick carried that on after Bonnie. was gone. >> [music].

>> The kids lived with him in Indy and then. in Kalamazoo, Michigan where Rick. eventually moved in 2000 for a new job. and it was probably a good fresh start. for him and for Gretchen and Josh. Though Josh didn't go right away. He was. 18 by that point. He stayed behind in. Indy for a couple of years, but it was. good because here in Indy, there was. always this cloud of suspicion hanging. over Rick, but without investigators. ever really pulling the trigger. So it's. like he can't clear his name. You just. like live in this weird limbo. >> And did they ever do any more interviews.

with him? Like. even ask him about some of the weird. stuff? It doesn't seem like it. At least. not for a long time. In 2007, the law. enforcement division of the Marion. County Sheriff's Department and the. Indianapolis Police Department, so there. were two different agencies at the time. They consolidated and that's what we now. know as IMPD. and that is who is the lead agency. today. So around that time, that's when. Detective Katherine Byron finally goes. up to Michigan and has another. conversation with Rick like 10 years in.

the making [music]. and Josh gave us that transcript as. well. So I figured you should hear. exactly what Rick had to say. Now again, I would have loved for you to hear it. from his own mouth, but our records. request from IMPD was denied, right? So. we're having voice actors read this. transcript. Whenever there's a controversial trial, do you ever wonder, did the jury get it. right? I'm Brandi Churchwell and this [music]. is the 13th Juror podcast where we break.

down real court cases and put you in the. juror's seat. All right, jury entering. courtroom. When the gavel [music] falls, the jury's. decision may be final, but the debate is. far from over. Listen to 13th Juror [music] wherever. you get your podcasts. We the jury find as follows as to the. count. >> [music]. >> This is a tape statement being conducted. by Katherine Byron of the Indianapolis.

Metropolitan Police Department. Today's. date is April 25th, 2007. The time is. now approximately 10:25 a.m. and we are. located in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Present. are myself and Mr. Richard Schultz. Okay. Um I guess this is a meeting that's been. what? 10 years in the making? Pretty. close. And I called you about what? Uh. six weeks ago? Something like that. Yes. Completely out of the blue, right? Yeah.

Um so this is really other than. that initial phone call and a couple of. scheduling phone calls here and there, this is really the first time we've had. an opportunity to talk. Correct. Okay. And And I am recently the new. detective reassigned to your wife's. case, Bonnie. The missing person's case. Um. I know it's been 10 years, but what can. you remember? What can you tell me about. that? Can you just kind of start from. the beginning for me and. Well, again, the night of July 3rd,

1997, um. Bonnie was going out with people she. worked with. I believe it was somebody's. birthday party for somebody she worked. with. Um I don't even remember where she said. they were going. Um but she left the house at 8:00, 8:30. in the evening um and again went went. with the people from work who again, because of the nature of her work, I I. didn't know any of them because they.

worked late night evenings and I was. home with the kids. Right. Um and and. again, I know it's been 10 years, so um. what did you do? What What's your best. recollection of that evening? I was home with Gretchen. >> Mhm. I'm pretty sure Josh spent the night. with friends, but Gretchen and I were at. home. I don't remember specifically what. we did. I don't remember necessarily going. anywhere, but she was only 10.

So um we were at home. She went to bed. whatever time she normally did. Um she got up the next morning, I think. around 8:00, 8:30 or something like. that. That's her normal time. Bonnie. wasn't home yet and. I didn't know specifically who she had. gone out with the night before, so. I waited a little while to see if, you. know, if she maybe stayed somewhere else. and was going to come home and then.

started looking around the house for. trying to find a list of names of people. she worked with. And. so later that day in the afternoon, and I don't remember exactly when in the. afternoon, I think I found a list of. some of the people and Anita's name was. on there. That's the lady she said that. she was going out with. Uh I called her. house a a of times and got no answer. And then later that day, which would be.

the 4th of July, Anita's daughter called. and said that my number had come up on. her caller ID a couple of times. I said. I was trying to get a hold of her mom to. see if she knew where Bonnie was. And. Anita's daughter must have called her. and then I talked to Anita and she said. well, as far as she knew Bonnie had. headed home. So that that's when I. called the sheriff's department to file. a missing person's report late afternoon. on July 4th. And they.

squad car person, that's not the right. term, but came over and took the. statement and said that somebody would. be in contact with me in a day or two. Now just jumping in real quick, I gave. you the short version last time of how. he got in contact with Anita, but this. is similar to the story that he told 10. years prior. So so far everything is. pretty consistent. Uh I I guess at what. point did you start to think something. was not right? As soon as I talked to Anita, I think.

Cuz she had said Bonnie had headed home. And I knew she hadn't gotten there. So. obviously that was my when I got. concerned. Cuz you know, I thought maybe. if again they partied too much or. whatever, she stayed with a friend and. would get home sooner or later that that. next day. But. once that lady told me that. that wasn't the case and that's that's.

what triggered the call to the sheriff's. department. Is that a common occurrence? No. That. >> No. That Bonnie wouldn't come home. >> No, not at all. So that's why when I woke up the next. morning or when Gretchen woke up, I. don't remember exactly who got up first, I realized she wasn't there. So then I. was trying to find out uh. again who she might have been with or a. phone number or whatever, but. um it took me a while to find some stuff.

around the house. Right. That was really kind of before. everybody had a cell phone and. >> Well, actually she did have a phone. Did. she? She did have a cell phone and. and again we tried to call that and. got no answer. And. I don't remember who the service was. with, but for several weeks after that I. called them on a daily basis to see if. there had been any activity on the on. the line. Because first of all, they. said well, you have to wait till you get. your statement. I said well, I don't.

want to wait a month. Then I can explain. the situation and then I I was calling. every day or every other day to see if. anything or if anybody had used the. phone during the course of that time. It. hadn't been used at all. Hold up. Was Detective Byron playing. dumb about the cell phone to see what he. said or did no one look at the cell. until 2007? I'm not sure if she's. playing dumb or if she hadn't reviewed. like the old notes yet and like wasn't.

up to speed. >> Yeah, but he brings it up. Like why. bring it up if you're lying? >> Right. Why point it out? >> Yeah, and it seems like he's going out. of his way to check the cell. Also, he's. saying that he called Anita on the 4th. and talked to her before he reported. Bonnie missing. He didn't call her until. the next day though. Right. So that this. is a small inconsistency, but this is 10. years later and he's a day off. Like. maybe it's a slip. But to me it doesn't change the facts. that much. >> Yeah, but it like the slip up does give.

him like the reason to know where the. Timeout Lounge is now, which is what. back then they said the big mess up was. >> Sure, but I mean they they can just go. back and listen to his recorded. interview from '97 and then be right. back where we started. So like to me. it's not like he's like fooling at any I. don't know. We could go round and round. and round. So let's just go back to the. tape. Okay. And the car? Uh never found as far as I can. As far. as I know. That's what.

Sergeant Kelly, Mike Kelly Mhm. That's. what he said was his biggest surprise. Uh bodies are much more easy to hide. than than a big car. So. and that was his biggest surprise after. the last time we talked, which I don't. even remember when that was, was it the. efforts that he had gone through to try. and find the car. But uh And did you. ever talk to Sergeant Ryan? Sergeant. Ryan? Uh that's actually who I took the. case from. You know, I believe I got a. phone call at some point in time that he.

I think it was a he. >> Mhm. uh had taken had taken the case. And when I moved up here, I called him, got his answering service and said that. I was, you know, for for job reasons was. moving up here. Mhm. And left him the at. that point in time my new office number. cuz I didn't have the home number yet. When did you move up here? August of. 2000. But he never called. It's been at least that long since I've.

heard from anybody. Right. That was. probably kind of shocking when you get. my phone call. Yes. Cuz I think I. as I. think I told you on the phone. conversation, you know, I had a meeting. with five or six different people from. the sheriff's department. Um. deputy chief. I'm sorry the names escape me. That's. okay. Um cuz you know, I wasn't real. happy with the way I was being treated. I mean, I understood or I still. understand I guess that I'm a.

I'm a suspect, but I've often thought, you know, I'm a victim too and nobody. was telling me anything. Right. And not. that I I mean, I watch too much TV. I. know. Not that I expect to get all the. inside information, but it would it. would be nice to at least have been told. some of what was found out or whatever. But at that point in time they told me. that they had pretty much done. everything that they could do. And.

and again I got assurance from, you. know, two or three levels up from the. people that I had been talking with that. everything was being done that could be. done. And um. that they were just going away for. something to happen. Either they find the car or or they find. Bonnie or somebody comes forward and. says I got something or I know. something. And. I. something like that ever happened, they. would contact me.

Quick pause. I got to be really honest here. 10 years. on, Rick is seeming. pretty reasonable. I know. >> Like. no one seems to be doing much outside of. just thinking he's kind of sus. And they're basically like well, we hope. we find her or her car or someone. confesses and we'll just let you know if. that happens. It's very much like a like. don't call us, we'll call you vibes. Yeah. And have they done any actual. searches for her or I mean the car I.

mean in the past 10 years? Like I know. the family did, but what about the. actual detectives on the case? >> So they did extensive searching. Like. they did multiple air searches. I know. with like a helicopter looking for signs. of her car. I know they also did several. water searches over the years, but they. didn't have sonar back in 1997. So they. had to use a police dive team and when. they did that, they didn't find. anything. And they did a lot of legwork. too, but all the legwork was very much. like around this like any idea that.

could help them prove like the Rick did. it theory. So they went to all these. storage units in the Indianapolis area I. think looking for her car. They checked. all of the bus records and cab records. thinking that if Rick got rid of her and. her car, he would have had to get a ride. back home, but they never found that he. was on any buses or took any cab. No. storage units either. So going back to. the tape, in this interview, they ask. Rick what he thought could have. happened. What is your theory?

10 years, what is. >> [snorts]. >> what is. what has gone through your mind in 10. years? You know, the TV guy, Scott, asked me that over. the phone and it's like, you know, I. don't know. I guess, you know, it's as I told him originally, I said I. don't think she would just voluntarily. leave, especially her children. If she encountered something that she. couldn't get herself out of, I mean, you'd think again the car would have.

been found by now. Uh if she had a. accident, I mean, the car would have. been found right away. So I mean, I. don't know. I don't know how you hide. something like that for that long a. period of time. Uh. unless. and I still don't think I don't think. she voluntarily ran away. And if she. did, I don't think she would stay away. this long. But. >> Right. It'd be pretty hard for someone to. conceal herself and the car for this.

amount of time. But the other thing is. is if somebody took her, how did they. how how did they hide the car for this. long a period of time? I mean, I watch. TV and stuff like that. That's based on. real events, but you know, it gets. stretched or whatever. I mean, you could. park a car in your garage, but would you. leave it sit there for 10 years and. nobody would nobody else would see it? That doesn't seem to make any sense. So. I don't know. I. I guess inside I don't think that she.

would have voluntarily run away. So I. think again either she had too much to. drink that night and encountered a. situation that she couldn't get herself. out of, but what that could be, I don't. know. So just like a quick behind the scenes. real quick. So in the transcript, the. part where he says you could leave it in. your garage, but like would you do that. for 10 years and nobody would see it. That is actually highlighted and starred. like someone found it important. I don't. know who, but it kind of seems like.

someone was like, ah, maybe he's like. slipping up and telling us what he did. Like Which like, sure. Too bad they. didn't look in the garage right after. she disappeared. They waited like what, a decade for that to actually happen? >> Three years. Like it was three years. when they went back to check. But like. also there's no way it was in the. garage. Gretchen was there, she lived. there. Josh was there, he lived there. >> Yeah, her her family, Bonnie's family, came the next week. Like they're all. driving around in the cars that they. had. And I don't know, again, I don't. know what it means. I only brought it up. because I feel like it just gives you a.

little bit of context and a sense that I. think that they might have come into. this interview with a strong opinion. And this is really, you know, what Josh. has been saying, that all the work that. they're willing to do is to. try to look at Rick, try to get Rick to. slip up, and it doesn't seem like. they're really looking for other. investigative avenues, [music] even 10. years later when she and the car still. haven't been found. Um, and there were some marital. problems, right? [snorts]. Yeah, there was. Uh, and who doesn't? I. mean, what.

what marriage is without problems? What. were the issues? Do you remember? You. know, I. I've spent a lot of time thinking about. that over the years. And um. you know, Bonnie, I think, and again, in. in thinking back, you know, she changed. quite a bit after her mother died. Her mother died 2 years before this. happened, I believe. And uh. she [snorts] died of some type of. cancer, but I mean, it was 2 months. after being diagnosed. Oh, it was quick.

I think it hit her pretty hard. And then I started getting things, you. know, we don't have anything in common. And I I was comparing again over the. years. That's what I see, saw in her. parents. Her mother was a genealogy. person, and her dad was was a fisherman. and stuff like that. They had nothing in common, and I said, well, we're not unlike anybody else. I. mean, we we each have our own interests,

but what we have in common are. is the family. And uh. it just seemed like she just started. getting more and more unhappy with lots. of things. Uh, she said a couple of times she. wasn't happy because her family didn't. come to visit her often enough. She. [sighs]. uh she always had to go see them. And uh just she changed. And uh again.

uh I don't know if it was her mother or. or she had just became unhappy with me. or life in general, but uh she. just things that didn't bother her. before seemed to start bothering her. Did you ever talk about suicide? Never. Never. Again, she talked about thinking. about wanting to get a divorce. I said, well, you know, you should. there should be some intermediate steps. between going from I'm unhappy to a.

divorce, which is what I was trying to. talk her into before she disappeared. And she seemed to be listening to that. after a while. Um you know, we had a. fairly long conversation that night. before she left about if we did divorce, what would or what would happen. She. wanted to keep the kids and the house, uh and I said, well, I don't know if I. can do that. Now, he goes on to say some of the same. things he did in 1997. That financially he didn't know if they. could swing two places, but he was.

willing to try. Like his gesture to see. if she wouldn't completely throw in the. towel. He reiterates that they weren't. shouting that night. Nothing got out of. control. They were out on the front. porch in the view of Gretchen inside and. close to other neighbors. They they. don't live out in the country. They like. lived in a subdivision. So, at this. point in the interview, that's when. Detective Byron asks him about Bonnie's. affair, point blank. It's 10 years. later. Was Bonnie having an affair? Not that I know of. Not that you know.

of. I'm sure you've heard that over the. years or. >> Several people have asked, but not that. I know of. Um and you didn't remarry? No. Over the 10 years? No. Gone about on. a few dates, but it just it just doesn't. feel right. Still that hope. Really? Tell me about that. Uh I'm hoping she'll come back. It's not very likely, but I. I hate to give up hope. Has this been. weighing on you for the last 6 weeks? I.

mean, not not to mention 10 years, but. has it? No. Has my phone call brought it. to surface again? No. No? Cuz it. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> it's always there. It never goes away. You know, the kids are, you know, Gretchen's out on her own, more or less. Josh works or whatever. He's gone. Um sitting here with the dog at night. And uh. you know, that's it. It never goes away.

And uh yeah. We haven't sat down and had a. face-to-face contact with anybody. outside of the three of us for a long. time. But um. again, I. you know, I've been up here for 6 and. 1/2 years. Uh. I haven't had any desire to date anybody. or whatever in that period of time. I went out a couple of times when I was. in Indy, right? Not right away, but after a while. But. it just.

it just wasn't right. And I still. still feel that way. And it's like, you know, you just. you do what you have to to get by day by. day, and uh. I know I had nothing to do with her. disappearance, so that's what gets me. through day by day. I would love to know. what happened. Sometimes I'm leery about wanting to. find out how it happened, cuz I don't. know if I want to know the details. But I would sure like to know what.

what happened. When you say the details, what do you mean? Well, I mean, if somebody murdered her, I don't know what I want to know all of. the details. Okay. Uh you know, did you. suffer? That type of stuff. Um I don't. need to know that stuff. I'm not. uh um. not a tabloid type of person or. whatever. I mean, I watch the major news events or. whatever, but the gory details don't. really interest me. Like the Virginia.

Tech stuff. I mean, obviously you want. to know that stuff is going on, but the. the tapes or whatever that were. released, which I I never did see. I don't really need to know all that. type of stuff, but uh. again, I think we all like to know what. happened. But how or um. not sure who we'd like to know who if. something like that did happen. That's. the the most difficult part of it all is.

not not knowing what happened. The lack. of closure. Although, you know I. I've thought about that over the years, too. I don't know that there in a situation. like this that there ever is closure. I think there's a again, you know what? Resolution? Yeah, uh. and and close. I. I know what most people mean when they. say closure. It gives you. you know what happened. And I guess. going forward from there and dealing.

with that is easier than what we've been. dealing with for 10 years. And that's we. don't know what. Is there anything you found out that you. can tell me or us? No, not yet. Um. like I said, I was just recently. reassigned to the case. So, I'm starting. over looking at it with fresh eyes. So, I'm in the process right now sorting. through everything and seeing what I can. do. So, unfortunately,

no, I I don't really think I have. anything new to tell you. I wish I that. this case can be resolved. I do believe. that. What What is that based on? Just. Detective Byron basically just says. based on the facts of the case, she. thinks it's solvable and everyone. deserves that, especially Bonnie's. family, her kids. She wants them to know. that their mom didn't leave them. And. then she hard pivots back to the morning. of July 4th asking what his first.

thoughts were. But he just says more of. the same that he said back in '97. I. mean, it does feel like he's a little. all over the map, though. Like he said. earlier in the interview that he doesn't. believe that she just walked off, that. she had to have encountered some kind of. situation that she just couldn't get. herself out of. But then he talks about. her like maybe coming back someday, even. if that's like some slim possibility. But maybe we're just getting a. bite-sized version of what his mind has. been doing for the last 10 years. Like. families of the missing say that.

ambiguous loss is the hardest. Without. knowing what happened, everything is a. possibility. And listen, I'm not out. here trying to be like the defender of. Rick. I'm just saying that like I've. gone back and forth more times than I. can even count on cases we've covered. over the last 8 years. I've gone back. and forth more times than I can count on. this very case alone over the last few. months. >> Right. And I'm not the one living with. it day in and day out. But like Rick, this is something he actually says. He. tells Detective Byron he is living it. >> [music]. >> every single day. He and the kids still.

talk about her. He sees things all the. time that remind him of Bonnie, and he. is much more emotional, he says, as he's. gotten older. Just very sentimental. And. it's at that point that Detective Byron. brings the conversation back to a more. focused question. She asks Rick if there. is anything that he thinks she should. know. And it's not new information that. he brings up. He's like, you know, "I'm pretty frustrated with Detective. Mike Kelly." He was the OG detective.

Because apparently he went on a local TV. segment about Bonnie's case and talked. about her leaving the bar the same time. as that John guy we talked about. But. he's like, "That's how I had to find out. about this John guy. Mike Kelly never. told me.". Oh, it was on a TV show? That's what bothered me is why he felt. he could disclose that on what was it, national TV on TV, but he never felt. that he should tell me that beforehand. Cuz again, I kept calling and asking if.

if he was coming up with anything or. whatever. Obviously, I was curious and. wanted to know, but he for the longest. time he wouldn't call me back. And that's what kind of triggered my I. think I wrote a letter to the sheriff. Yeah. Saying, you know, I just don't. think I'm being treated right. Again, from my naivety and. I just thought. I just thought people should at least be. telling me what's going on. But as far. as what I can tell you, it's like I.

said, she left home that night at 8:30. and I haven't heard or seen a thing from. her since then. Now, at first, this was like. one of the only things I couldn't wrap. my head around from his whole second. interview was this like time when he's. asked if he thought Bonnie was having an. affair and he says he doesn't think so. cuz it seems like such a big part of the. narrative now. Yeah. But maybe he really. had no idea. I mean, remember her friend. Anita and John? I mean, they clearly. knew Jeremy Johnson had an affair with. her, but they're not talking to Rick.

And if I go back to news reports from. those very early days, even early years, an affair is not mentioned. So, it's. possible he really was in the dark even. when police weren't. Now, a year after that interview with. Rick, the case ends up getting. transferred again to a new lead. detective, Sergeant Daniel Kistner, who. he's the one who we talked to for this. episode. And he and another detective. decide to go back up to Michigan in.

2008. >> [music]. >> And in that time, they did a nearly. 7-hour interview with Rick. Now, we. don't have the transcript of that one. and Sergeant Kistner wouldn't give it to. us, but he told us that Rick had vivid. memories of his whole life except for. the weeks leading up to Bonnie's. disappearance. [music]. He kept saying that he couldn't recall. many of the details and Sergeant Kistner. said that the interview got pretty tense. [music] when he called him on it and. suggested that he knew more. And after. that, IMPD ended up getting a search.

warrant for Rick's place up in Michigan. and they collected all the electronic. devices in the house and Sergeant. Kistner says they were also looking for. that number one mom necklace, which now. all these years later was nowhere to be. found. >> So, they take these devices, what were. they looking for on them? Cuz I assume. that like they weren't the same phones. or computers they had in '97. Literally. anything. I mean, Sergeant Kistner said. they were looking for anything that. could have like had a connection [music]. to Bonnie's disappearance like maybe in. messages, in documents or browser search.

history. And Sergeant Kistner says they. did find out that Rick was keeping an. eye on local Indianapolis news, but not for anything specific. And they didn't find anything else that. could have been connected to Bonnie's. disappearance. So, nothing comes of that. search. And Josh told us that IMPD. returned their computers and phones a. couple of years later, but they returned. everything broken. And and this is the real kicker to me, I get why the relationship is strained.

between them and police because I guess. when they were doing the search of the. house, they found like a tiny amount of. weed when they were searching in Josh's. room or somewhere on Josh, whatever. And he legit got charged for it. Sergeant Kistner said that he had no. idea that happened. He said that would. have been done by like Michigan police. and he never would have done that. He. was just there to find out what happened. to Bonnie. Like he wouldn't have had any. [music] interest in busting a kid for. weed. But listen, I'm not saying the police. are. wrong about their theory, but I I.

genuinely. still don't know. what I think. But I fully get why the. kids would be frustrated with them. Like. this whole scenario that's unfolding. feels really frustrated and pointed and. not backed by much. >> Yeah, and and like at least from the way. that Rick tells it, like. or for what I've seen from his. transcripts, right? Like he's the one. asking for updates and not getting much. Josh and his dad and relatives are the. ones out there searching for the whole. weekend before the sheriff's office put. anyone on the case. They're learning.

stuff through the media. And now even. the kids are treated like criminals. And. Josh's wife Crystal told us that part of. the reason Gretchen doesn't like talking. to people is because they always accuse. her of knowing more. That like [music]. she was in the house that night and, you. know, maybe it's not as big as her. covering up for something, but that she. has to have like some secret piece of. information locked away in her brain. about whether her dad left the house. that night or if she heard her mom come. home and something happened. And listen, we heard this from multiple sources in.

our reporting. We heard it from. investigators, even their own Uncle. Mike. But this is where I'm saying, just like hold on for 1 second. I get so. many things look bad. But for 1 second, if we kept an open mind, if we believed Gretchen that she doesn't. know anything more. Her mom left. She. went to bed. When she woke up, her mom. wasn't there, but her dad was and. everything was normal. What if there is nothing more to tell? What if we don't know what happened to. Bonnie because her family truly doesn't. know and that is the only place anyone.

has really looked. So, remember Diane? Mhm. Bonnie's like. neighbor friend or like who lived close. to her? >> Yeah. She was one of the people who. instantly became suspicious of Rick. This is Can I tell you something spooky. that happened? >> Always. >> full body chills when I was going. through the the file and like all of the. interviews. So, losing her friend and never knowing what. happened. obviously is just something that never. left her. And when a reporter was interviewing. her, she said that over the years at.

like all different stages of [music]. life, she had gone to mediums, three. different ones, all separate. And each. one told her the same thing. They all said, "It's not who you think that did it.". What? What does that Maybe maybe. nothing. What does that mean if not. cuz cuz she thinks. like she said as soon as she's always. thought. >> she's always thought it's Rick. And. listen, even she's asking the same.

question I I like you started to ask. because she was like if not him, then. who? Yes. She's like if not him, then. who? If it's some random person, you. don't need to make her car and her purse. and her credit cards and all that. disappear. Yeah. Diane thinks it had to. be someone she knew, which is why she just like kept coming. back to Rick, but then kept going to. mediums who kept saying she was wrong. Like Well, I mean, okay, but what if it. is someone she knew, just someone else? Yeah, what if? >> Or an accident. Or what if she walked. off? Like.

I know it's almost unheard of, but. recently I came across the case of. Brenda Heist. I was not familiar with. this before, but her daughter reached. out to me and she is who I've had in the. back of my head as I've been telling the. story because I know the easy answer is. the husband. But it wasn't that way in. her case. Brenda, very much the same scenario. She. was divorcing her husband and on the day. she disappeared, she was supposed to go. look at apartments after dropping her. kids off at school and then she just. vanished. And just like Rick, her.

daughter told us that her dad lived. under suspicion for years. Everyone said. Brenda would never leave her kids. She. has to be dead. And then guess what? 11 years later, Brenda was found alive. and well. She just left. Didn't plan it. Just like that morning said, "You know. what? I'm going to start over." And. sure, yes, accident is still an option, too, but accident feels less likely the. more bodies of water that are searched.

over the years. Which bodies of water is. like what people have always said, like. it had to have been a body of water that. she went into and that's why the car has. never been found. But the currently. detective on the case, Nicholas Hubbs, says that there have been more than 20. water searches for Bonnie's car in the. past 10 years, lots with sonar now that. they have it, including some done by a. private group. But I have to wonder, are. we like making a wrong assumption there? About what? About the car being in water. because like. on its face, you read about this case.

and it's like, oh, like her car, you know, it was entered. into like whatever whatever database, the license plate or the VIN number, it's never popped up. So, like it has to. be in water cuz that's why nobody's ever. found it. Maybe not? So, I was shocked when I. talked to Josh and we learned that. investigators actually messed up in. 1997. [music] Now, he's telling us this. and we're like, there's no like. >> Let's let's double check, yeah. Turns. out he's right. You see, the way it used. to work in 1997 was that an officer.

would make the report, make a phone call. to the auto desk to have a vehicle. entered into NCIC, and it would either. get entered as stolen or they would give. information to have someone entered as. missing. So, it looks like in Bonnie's. case, when a deputy called it in here, they only entered Bonnie as missing. Now, they noted that her car was gone, too, but I don't think they actually. entered the vehicle into the system at. the same time. >> So, it was just like and her car, but. there was no details, not what it was, no VIN, no license plate number.

>> as a missing vehicle. >> Yeah. It wasn't until some point in 1999. when another detective comes across this. case and is doing all of his like checks. and balances that he discovers the. vehicle is not in the system as missing. or stolen. Now, when this was realized, they were able to go back and see if any. agency had run the plate in the missing. 2 years, but no one had. But to me, it. also means that maybe no one was. actively looking out for it, which the. detective admitted to us was a missed.

opportunity. So, if the plate is never. run, then the car is hidden somehow, right? Which is why I think people keep. going back to water, but. Like I don't I don't know. I just like. but we know it's not in the water. So, like if it's an accident, I just have a. hard time believing the accident thing. Like when you think about the route from. the bar to her home, it's not a super. rural area. An accident on land would. have been noticed like almost all the. route she went home. And the bodies of.

water on her way home have been. searched. So, like. someone hid the thing. Okay, so let's. just play this out. So, like that's not. an accident to me. You know what. [laughter] I mean? Let's just play this out for a second. How would Rick get rid of his wife's. body and car. in like kind of a short amount of time? We're talking about like what? 4 5 hours. maybe? >> This is what I'm saying. Show me how it. happened. Like the easy answer is a body. of water. That's why everyone keeps. talking about water. But which one? I.

don't know if anyone's been to Indy. recently. Like we don't just have like. massive remote bodies of water. Yeah, we have like plenty of little ones. all over, but most of them are open. access. There are like houses around. them where people would see. You might. even see tire tracks that would stand. out. Or there's like guardrails if the. water is close to the road. And like I. said, the ones that have places that you. could easily drive something into. between Broad Ripple, that area, and her. house, those have been searched. Like I. Okay, but again, the focus is on the.

area between the bar and her house. The person we have saying she was headed. to her house was the guy she was having. an affair with, right? >> Yeah. That's that's that's how we know. she's going No in like air quotes. >> Every Everything is based on that. And. investigators, they've always said they. deem him credible and [music] not. involved in her disappearance. But I. mean, since I don't have their records, I don't know all the ins and outs of why. other than the fact that they say he.

passed a polygraph. And unfortunately, he died in 2006, so we couldn't talk to. him now. But we did get in touch with. John's daughter, Kim. And what she told. us was brand new information to us and. to investigators when we passed it along. to them. So, she was 16 back in 1997. She didn't live in Indy. She actually. lived in Texas with her mother. But by some stroke of cold case luck, she was visiting Indianapolis to see her.

dad that 4th of July weekend. She told. us that her dad was actually planning to. introduce her to Bonnie at an outdoor. concert on the 4th called Uncle Sam Jam. I guess the concert had one of her. favorite bands, the Barenaked Ladies. We. actually checked this. The concert did. happen that weekend, so she [music] is. spot on. And she said that her dad. hadn't introduced her to other women. And so, she took this as him This was. big. Yeah, this was like he's like very. smitten with her. She knew. But she says. that Friday, Bonnie never showed up. And.

she remembered her dad getting really. worried and him saying that this wasn't. like [music] her. She said it pretty. much ruined the entire day because he. seemed so worried about it. Wait. I. thought John gets told. that she's missing on Saturday by Anita. That is what John told police, yeah. But his daughter's saying that she knew. something was wrong on Friday. Yes. Now, it's not like he could call her. house or show up to get her, right? Like. they're having a.

secret affair. >> But she had a cell. Like he he could. have called her. So, and this is the. thing. Kim told us that she thinks he. did try her cell, but he couldn't reach. her, which brings me back to those cell. phone records. Yes, it feels even more. likely to me that no activity means that. like calls didn't connect, not that no. one tried calling. But why didn't he try. calling Anita or anything though? Like. there were other people that he spent. time with that knew Bonnie that he could.

have like seen where it what what. happened. Like have you heard from her? Whatever. I thought about this. The. innocent explanation, which I do think. is very believable, is that he didn't. think that she was like missing missing. I mean, he knew things at home were. tough. She was about to leave her. husband. He might have just assumed that. things got complicated at [music] home. But the thing that I can't wrap my head. around is in that scenario though, why. not tell police that you were supposed. to meet her on Friday and she didn't.

show up? >> Yeah, that feels like a kind of a big. piece of like the timeline puzzle, right? >> When we told Sergeant Kistner about. this, he said he had never heard. anything about Bonnie not showing up to. meet John at the concert on Friday, and. he doesn't know why John wouldn't have. mentioned that. And like this was one of. the moments where he's like, you know, it's really frustrating to have come. onto this case so many years after when. it's already too late to get questions. answered from John, who again died in. 2006. Now, he said he did go door knocking at. one point and talked to one of John's.

good friends. And this was recent, like. just about a year ago. The guy's name is. Brad Beach, and Brad told him that John. took Bonnie's disappearance really hard. Kistner said that Brad told him that. John carried guilt, that he should have. followed her home or like he should have. done something to protect her. Like we. tried talking to Brad ourselves, but we. never got a response. We also reached. out to Kim's two half-brothers, who were. John's sons from a previous. relationship, but neither of them. responded to our messages. So, we really. only had Kim to talk to you about who. her dad was. And I mean, she said that.

he was, quote, a drinker even before. Bonnie went missing. So, she doesn't. know like how much Bonnie's. disappearance impacted him in the. following months and years because. really after that, they didn't talk. often. Was she staying with him though. that night? Like can she at least. confirm that he came home and was there. after he's like said he waved goodbye to. Bonnie? >> No, she actually stayed with a different. family member while she was in town. Which like listen, I'm not saying that. John's story isn't true or that he had.

anything to do with Bonnie going. missing. But what I'm saying is like the. double standard is wild. Like you have. John with no one to verify his story, and you have Rick who has his daughter. at home saying nothing happened. And. Rick's a liar. John might have called Bonnie on Friday. We know Rick says that he did, but. there's no activity on her phone. But. Rick is the liar. Like it doesn't seem. fair. >> Right. Now, we also tried talking to Anita cuz like. I have a million questions for that one.

But she ignored us. You know who else she ignored? Bonnie's kids. Josh said that he has tried a bunch of. different times to talk to Anita over. the years. Like even reached out to her. daughter and said that she pretty much. just hung up on him. And I was talking. about this with one of our reporters, and they were like, well, you know, she. made it clear to detectives that she was. suspicious of Rick. She's always thought. that the kids were very much on his. side. So, like maybe she wouldn't want. to talk to them. Okay, I get it, maybe.

But then I found out that Diane tried to. reach out to her, too. I mean, everyone. right now is looking for answers and. clues. And the same way people are like, oh, Gretchen must know something. I. think everyone wants to talk to Anita. thinking there's For sure. >> some hidden clue like locked away in her. brain if they can dissect every word. Bonnie said that night or her exact. movements, like whatever. So, Diane got. Anita's name from one of the detectives. She called her and she's like, hey, I. know everything about Bonnie and Rick. and what was going on.

>> like, at this point still pretty. hardcore Rick did it. >> But she's like, I would love to know. more about what happened before Bonnie. came to the party that night. And this. is what Anita told her. I would never betray her trust. And Diane's like, no, you like you don't. understand. Like I want to know so we. can figure out She trusted me, too. We're on the same team. to know if. Rick's involved, and maybe this will. help. And her response was, I would. never tell anything about Bonnie to.

anyone. [music]. What? Listen, girl, if I am missing and there. is even a chance that I did not walk. away and someone killed me, spill my secrets. Like what are we doing. here? >> yap. You don't have to worry. >> [laughter]. >> But like is Bonnie going to know you. shared something? And and sharing it. again like with another friend of hers. that she was clearly confiding in. Like. again, like I said, like she trusted me, too. We're on the same team. Feels like.

the safest person. And like also someone. who can identify with what you're. feeling like as someone who like has. their friend missing. And like they. confided in you. They trusted you. It's. really odd. I don't know if Anita still. feels this way almost 30 years later. But again, like I mean, to us, she. definitely didn't seem to want to talk. about Bonnie even now. And if you want. to say she's scared or whatever, Rick. died in 2022. So, if she was keeping. quiet because she was afraid of him,

that shouldn't be a problem anymore. And. I don't know if it was ever a real. problem to begin with. Cuz I did a thing. I know the thing you. did, but I don't actually know what came. of it. Yeah. So, I'm I'm actually like. dying to hear. So, okay. So, as some of. our listeners may know, I have become. friends with Allison DuBois over the. last like year or so. And some people will recognize her name. because of the show Medium. That's based. off her life and the actual work that.

she did to help law enforcement solve. cases. That's what I knew her from. Some. people will will her from Real. Housewives where she was the guest at an. epic dinner party and predicted the. downfall of a marriage. We all love her. for different reasons. Anyway, something in this case just. really stood out to me. So, it that. moment where I like I read or the. transcript of what Diane told our. reporter, where she or I listened to it. as well, but she's telling our reporter. that over the years she went to three. different mediums and all three said the. same thing. It's not who you think.

So, I got this idea. >> [laughter]. >> I know a medium. >> Yeah, what if I ask the medium I know? I. know Listen, guys, I know it doesn't. prove anything, but like I don't know. What if? It's 30 years on, like what do. we have to lose? Police are only looking. at Rick. I'll try anything at this. point. So, I first asked Josh if it would be. okay. He gave us his permission. So, I. flew Allison out to Indy and I had her. do a reading.

And let me preface this by telling you. how she works. When she came to Indy, she had no idea. what case we were going to talk about. There is. no way she would have known. Even if she would have known. Like. there's like very little This is the. most in-depth story that's ever been. done on Bonnie's case. So, when she does a reading, what I give. her is. someone's picture and their first name. Not like a picture of them and their. family or like I mean just Just them. Just them and their first name. So,

she takes it, she goes into a room, and. like we had cameras and stuff. Like she. does like this like weird scribble thing. or whatever, and she's able to make a. connection, which I asked her before, I'm like, "Hey, if someone's missing, Like what what do you get if someone's. missing?". >> Yeah, and she's like, "I I cannot. connect if they are not dead." So, the. fact that she was able to make a. connection told me that Bonnie is not. out there alive and well somewhere. Now, she when she started talking about. Bonnie, she said that she was very. nurturing. She would have never walked. away, and whatever happened to her.

wasn't an accident, either. Someone targeted her, and it was someone. she did not know. What? >> Girl, I'm telling you, I did not tell. her anything about Bonnie's family or. husband or kids or affair. She knew. nothing about her life. But she said that someone had been. watching her. And isn't that something. that John had mentioned? >> Mhm. Everyone has always just assumed. that someone is Rick. But when she's. telling me this, and again, I'm not even. like at this point confirming for her. anything.

>> listening. >> Yeah, but she's saying that this person. who was watching her targeted her. And. she said this was someone who has a. record for burglary. She said he lived. nearby Bonnie, but not in a house, which. was like very specific. And she thinks. her remains are more likely in a wooded. area, somewhere with walking paths. And. she kept saying that she kept seeing. this scene [music]. where there were birds flying over this. wooded area near a housing development. that she said was it was built up, but. it still had some homes under.

construction. Which sent me into like a property. record spiral, because I was like, "Okay, where would have been wooded in. '97 with houses being built, but still. undeveloped almost 30 years later?" Long. story short, my best guess is [music]. the Eagle Creek area. It's like a big. city park. >> There's tons of walking paths. >> Mhm. And that's like on the west side, like out where she would have lived. And. I did this kind of like vague call out. on social media a few weeks ago about. like asking people to send me housing.

developments that would have been under. construction around like late 1997, early 1998. And to be honest with you, I. don't even like know my next steps or. what searching these areas would entail. I know at a minimum, I think I'll be. doing a lot of hiking when the weather. warms up. So, if it really is someone that Bonnie. didn't know, not Rick, not John, how. does this person encounter her? Because. John waves goodbye to her while she's in. her car headed home. So,

I have this like kind of theory, and I. kind of talked it out eventually with. Allison after she did her whole reading, because one of the things she said in. her reading before she knew anything was. that she was like seeing someone walking. in between the homes. Like she's like, "Bonnie keeps showing me someone walking. in between the homes.". And. I wonder. if she did make it home, but not inside. I think about them sitting on the porch. having this talk about their marriage,

right? They're trying to like not. probably not be around Gretchen and have. her hear everything. >> Not in the house. Right. But if they're. sitting outside, she's telling Rick. outside what her plan is. She's going to. like go away. She's not going to be home. till late. So, say there was somebody who had seen her, targeted, watched her. I mean, if they. were there earlier, they know that she. is going to be alone pulling into the. drive very late at night, early morning. hours. If they were following her. somewhere else, they see her pull in. There is a world where she gets attacked.

in her driveway. And yes, there are. houses very close, but if it is swift, if it is quick, >> And it happens in her car and he leaves. with it. He leaves with it. How would. you How would anyone know? >> not like she has to stop. It's like she. made it almost all the way to the like. Again, this is just I have nothing to. base this on. >> her car stops in the driveway of her own. volition. He's not flagging her down. She doesn't have to pull over. It's. where she's supposed to be stopping. >> Right. And [music] so, as the. conversations kept going with Allison, there's like there's so much more that. she told me, but I'm trying to keep it.

brief. But I did eventually give her. Rick's picture, because he died, too. And like she was like, "This man, no.". She's like, "He is not violent." She's. like, "He is a perfectionist. He. probably could be verbally like mean to. Bonnie, but he has never killed anyone. in his whole life.". And listen, I know people are going to. think whatever they want to think of. this. I I believe in stuff like this. Some people will not, and that's okay. The thing that I like think about, though, Allison aside,

if that's true, if Rick did nothing, it would be really. sad to think that he had to live the. rest of his life. painted as a murderer by so many people. [music]. He never got remarried. He like he said. he thought about Bonnie all the time. I. don't know. And listen, you guys, I'm serious. There's there is so much more that. Allison said about Bonnie. But again, like I realize there are skeptics. I'm. trying to like keep it brief. So, if. you're if you want to hear the whole.

thing, even the stuff that like I gave. her a moment to say like does she have. anything to say to her son? I mean, [music] it was fascinating. I'm going to. drop the entire conversation as a fan. club extra for anyone who's interested. I'm I I again, I'm just trying to give. you the big takeaways here. But I will leave you with something else. that gives me like little tiny chills. Like I've always seen like the critics. are like, "Oh, Ashley, I roll.". And like I know it's a little bit. generic, but it was like the last little. like moment I had when putting together. this episode. So, I asked our reporter.

like as I'm finishing up, I'm like, "Hey, go to Josh. See if he has just any. final thoughts that he wants to share. when we close out our episode.". At the same time, I was about to go like. do my stuff with Allison DuBois. You. know, it's different places, different. times, whatever. So, I go do my thing. with Allison, and when I ask her to like. say does she have anything to say to her. son? And the first line out of Allison's. mouth was. she said he never stopped looking for. me. And then she called him baby boy. She said a bunch more stuff, whatever. And so, I come back to finish, you know,

the outline for this episode, and the. first line I get in my note from the. reporter was. Josh has never given up searching for. his mom. Oh my god. Chill. Like and it's. It is a true statement. Although he and. his wife Crystal moved to Florida in. 2023, they worked [music] with dive. teams before they left. They were. looking for any sign of Bonnie. They. scoured maps for any bodies of water. that could be hidden or that could hide. a car. Now, one place he says he hasn't. been able to search are quarries north. of Indianapolis, but he's not even sure.

if there would be access to put a car in. the water [music] there. He says knowing. what happened to his mom has been. brutal. It has made it harder for him to. trust people, and it's only compounded by the. unanswered questions of whether his. father, his own father, was involved in. her disappearance. Now, Josh doesn't. believe that he was. He thinks someone. else out there might hold the answers, and he hopes that one day they'll come. forward to give him and his family the. relief of finally laying Bonnie to rest.

And I really do believe that there's. hope for that. So, if you out there have. any information about Bonnie's. disappearance or her missing vehicle, please contact the current detective, Detective Nicholas Hubbs at Indianapolis. Metropolitan Police Department. That's. 317-327-6160, [music]. or you can email us tips@audiochuck.com. You can find all the source material for. this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. [music]. And you can follow us on Instagram at. crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next.

week with a brand new episode.