Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger?

Hi Crime Junkies, I'm your host Ashley. Flowers. >> And I'm Brit. >> And the story I have for you today isn't. just one story, but it started that way. for me with Sandra Birchmore, which we. covered in our last episode. I was. shocked and outraged at how she was. taken advantage of in the police. explorer program. Because like, my god, surely parents have to believe that. sending their kids to learn from the. police has to be the safest place for. them. What a betrayal. But I began to wonder,

was this the exception or was this just. one example of a system with deep-rooted. [music]. problems that lets abuse thrive? And. just as I was asking [music] this very. question, literally within like 2 weeks. of Sandra's story breaking, I saw a. local news article. It said, "IMPD officer tied to teen's. suicide, ordered to write weekly journal. in rare sentence." A teen who was part. of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police.

Department's Explorer program. And as I dug into her story, I realized. that we were just scratching the surface. of a much, much bigger problem. The more. I looked, the more I found. And me and. our reporter Nina have spent months. uncovering a systemic issue with the. Explorer program [music]. that is required listening for everyone. Crime Junkie or not, this is an episode. that must [music] be shared. Because you. won't believe what has been happening.

right under our noses for decades. For Mike Gatcliff, time [music] stopped. on Monday, November 2nd, 2015, right. around 4:41 p.m. And now his life is split into before. and after. Before, he was living out the most. average day. Went to work at the. Indianapolis Police Pawn Unit, came home. to the house that he shared with his.

wife Janice, their 18-year-old daughter. Heidi, and their 21-year-old son. He. just gotten out of his car and was. bringing up some leaf bags from the yard. when this familiar face came up to him. 29-year-old IMPD Officer Francisco. Olmos, known to him and most as Paco. Now, even though Mike's a civilian. employee for IMPD, the only reason he. really knew Francisco was because of. Heidi. She had been a part of the. department's Explorer program for nearly. 2 years and he knew that she had done. some ride-alongs with Francisco over the. past few months. And Francisco had never.

just shown up at their house before. unannounced and not in uniform, but he. says that he's there that day to talk to. Heidi about a case. >> She's an Explorer. What kind of case. would you need to talk to like Explorer. part? They're not working cases. They're. not officers. >> Yeah, you're right. They are not, but. Mike isn't even concerned. Along with. working for IMPD, he's also a fire. department chaplain. So, like their. whole family trust first responders and. IMPD was Heidi's life basically.

>> [music]. >> I mean, everything she's done has been. working up to getting on the force. Maybe she's getting like a little inside. peek, like any crime junkie would love. >> sure. >> It would be great. Whatever. So, he tells Francisco that, you know, he just got home but Heidi's car is in. the driveway, so she's got to be inside. So, like come on in. He invites. Francisco in through the garage, but. Francisco stays at the entrance while. Mike goes inside to get [music] Heidi. Now, inside her bedroom door is closed. Mike knocks and then he walks in when.

she doesn't answer. And this is the. moment that time stops. [music]. Because once he opened that door, he. would always be living in the after. [music] After he found Heidi laying in. bed where he kissed her goodbye that. morning. Before she was warm and alive, his beautiful daughter with so much. potential. And after she is still and pale with a. gun near her head and her hand close to. it. Now, Mike rushes [music]. to Heidi and calls out for Francisco. realizing that he hadn't followed him.

in. And Francisco comes running, but. even though he's the trained officer, it's Mike who slips into first responder. mode. He's the one that calls 911 at. 4:41 p.m. and he's the one who gives. dispatchers what they need while. Francisco is just like falling apart. Medics and IMPD officers arrive within. minutes and Heidi is pronounced dead. there at the scene. And the rest of the night is just a blur. of chaos. Mike calls Janice at work. bringing her into the after and she.

remembers the moment that she collapsed. and had to be driven home. There, friends and family gather while. police seal off the house. Officers line. the street in a show of respect for. Heidi as one of their own. And everyone is left reeling [music]. trying to make sense of something that. makes no sense. >> [music]. >> I mean, the day before everything seemed. pretty normal. The family went to church. like always. Later, Heidi skipped baking. cookies with her mom. She said she had. plans with a friend and then when she.

came home, she seemed a little upset but. nothing major. She went back out, came. home again sometime later. Mike didn't. see her get back which was like a little. odd. >> But there was nothing that like screamed. crisis. >> Not even close. Mike is trained to. recognize the warning signs of suicide. and he hadn't noticed any. Plus like Heidi is known for her upbeat. personality. She is bright and bubbly. and driven. She loved helping people. I. mean, that's what drew her to law. enforcement. In middle school, she. actually dreamed of the FBI but over.

time, she set her sights on IMPD, the. department that she got to know through. the Explorers. Mike was actually the one. who'd first heard about the program and. thought it would be a good fit for her. >> [music]. >> And he was right. Heidi had ADHD. She. struggled with a traditional classroom. but exploring let her learn by doing. She worked security at the Indianapolis. 500. She helped on mall patrols. I mean, her confidence was growing with every. single shift. And her favorite part were. the ride-alongs. Sitting beside an. officer, following calls, watching.

arrests unfold, it felt like the real. thing and it really cemented her desire. to become a cop. And just days before. her death, she had been promoted to post. commander [music] and captain, something. that she was thrilled about. So, for. Heidi's parents and her brother, like. this isn't just grief. It is whiplash. But even in that grief and their darkest. moments, her family has never disputed that. Heidi's gunshot wound was. self-inflicted. I mean, she even left a. note on Mike's computer, which they.

found later. But there still are so many questions. about what led up to her death and why. >> And the note didn't give any. explanation? >> Not one that they fully understood or. not one that like filled in all the gaps. of how things ended up the way they did. Like in the note, she apologized to her. parents. She said it wasn't their fault, but that she'd made some mistakes. She. felt like she was hurting people's. careers. It was vague. It was a little confusing. for them. And there was nothing in. recent memory that they could call back.

to that made this make sense. And. listen, credit where credit is due for. IMPD because they are going to get their. fair share of heat in this episode, too. They did the thing that you're supposed. to do. Every death should be treated as. suspicious [music] until you definitely. rule that it's not. And even though. everyone was in agreement that this was. a suicide, there was still a mystery. surrounding it. And it quickly becomes. obvious that what led up to it might. involve [music] one of their own. Deborah, I know you have a teenager.

>> Mhm. >> What is the one thing that can give you. insight into their life? The portal into. their internal world. >> Correct. Hidden in Heidi's calls and texts might. be all the answers that her family is. looking for. And that phone still. playing music was near her head when her. dad found her. So police collected it and asked her. [music] parents for the passcode. But Mike and Janice are kind of taken. back. Like, passcode? Heidi's not. supposed to have a passcode. They have a.

house rule against it. >> Mhm. >> But detectives tell them the phone's. locked. And listen, it's not like Heidi. couldn't have broken that rule if there. were things that she didn't want her. parents to see or know after she was. gone. So they like toss out some. guesses. Police try them, but nothing. works. And eventually the phone disables. completely. And there's just something. that feels wrong about this. You see, after Mike found his daughter, [music]. Francisco had asked Mike to use Heidi's. phone so that he could call the advisor.

who ran her Explorer post. >> Call them for what? And also, use your. own phone? >> Mike didn't know why he was asking. I. mean, he had in that moment zero brain. space to even consider the weirdness of. the request. >> 100%. >> Yeah, I mean, he just found his. daughter. But Francisco was able to. place that call, presumably without. having a passcode to open the phone, which means. >> Francisco locked the phone. >> Yeah. And there is only one reason that. you would need to do that. And that is if you don't want anyone to.

see what's on it. >> Some cases fade from headlines. Some. never made it there to begin with. I'm. Ashley Flowers and [music] on my. podcast, The Deck, I tell you the. stories of cold cases featured on. playing [music] cards distributed in. prisons designed to spark new leads and. bring long overdue justice. Because. these stories deserve to be heard and. the loved ones of these victims still. deserve answers. Are you ready to be.

dealt in? Listen [music] to The Deck now. wherever you get your podcasts. Everything around Francisco is starting. to stink. He came to talk to Heidi about a case, which makes no sense now that the. blinders are off. He froze and freaked. out in a moment of crisis and had her. dad be the one to call 911. And then he. used her phone to make a call after they. found her, and now no one can get into. the phone. Like, come on. >> Mhm.

>> So, for all those reasons, detectives. have a conversation with Francisco. pretty quickly. Like, the next day, Tuesday, November 3rd. And he tells them. that he met Heidi when she was on a. ride-along with an ambulance [music]. crew. That was back in January, just. after her 18th birthday. And Janice told us it was actually maybe. even earlier at a charity boxing event. when Heidi was still 17. But either way, they started talking and Francisco. encouraged her to join him on patrol. He. worked a high-crime area known as the.

swamp, where something was always. happening, and Heidi jumped at the. chance. >> So, this was after she joined the. Explorers. >> Right. She'd actually already been in. the program for over a year by that. point. And Francisco had no official. Explorer role, but it like kept them in. each other's orbit, basically. So, he says they grew close, about 15. ride-alongs, working out together a. couple times a week, and talking almost. daily through text and Snapchat. >> That doesn't sound normal, right? >> It shouldn't be. >> Okay.

>> I mean, like many Explorer posts across. the country, IMPD's program operates. under Learning for Life, which is an. affiliate of Scouting America. >> Okay. >> And that organization forbids close. social relationships between leaders and. participants, no matter their age. But, Francisco doesn't work with the post, so. that rule technically wouldn't apply to. him. And at the time, IMPD didn't have a. policy barring officers from getting. involved with Explorers. Like, that was. only added this year, 2025.

Now, technically, since Heidi was 18, if. something was going on between [music]. them, it wouldn't have been illegal. >> But. >> But ethically, yeah, it's a different. story ethically. He is a uniformed. officer in a position of authority. hanging out with a teenager who clearly. looked up to him. So, even if you take. Francisco at his word, which is that. nothing sexual happened, it still feels wrong to me. But anyways, Francisco tells police that Heidi seemed. fine on Sunday night. They'd even made.

plans to work out that week. But by. Monday afternoon, something had changed. He said that she called him out of the. blue at around 1:00, told him she. couldn't talk to him anymore, but that. she loved him, and it wasn't his fault. She thanked him for everything and then. hung up, which rattled him, and he tried. calling back and then finally drove to. her house. And ultimately, he admits. that he lied to Mike. He didn't want. [music] to alarm him if this turned out. to be nothing, so he made up the whole. thing about having to talk to her about. a case.

>> Yeah, so then he hangs back and lets her. dad find her. >> Zero spine. >> Yeah, and lots of ick feelings about. this for me. >> But still, nothing illegal that we know. of. Where he crossed a hard line in the. sand was even touching her phone. I. mean, this dude's been a cop for 10. years. He knows not to touch evidence in. an active death investigation. And if he. really needed to contact the Explorer. advisor, he could have asked responding. officers to reach out. >> Or use his own phone.

>> Or like you said before, use his own. phone. Yeah. >> Like it does not sit right. >> So, this is when the case is bumped to. IMPD's special investigations unit. And. while they get their ducks in a row, a. digital forensic expert is trying to get. into Heidi's phone. And Mike and Janice. are just trying to survive each day. And they are left in kind of an unclear. position. Like they know that there is. an ongoing investigation, something. involving Francisco and Heidi's phone,

but they're not getting any real details. and they don't fully understand why this. is happening for a clear-cut suicide. So, one of the people that they lean on. during this time is 32-year-old Daniel. Bowman. He was Heidi's Explorer advisor, her. mentor, the cop running the meetings and. taking her ambition seriously. And now that Heidi's gone, he really. steps up for the Gatliffe's personally. The Explorers help with funeral. arrangements. Daniel carries Heidi's urn.

and gives a speech. And he doesn't just. forget about the family once those big. moments are over. He keeps checking in. He keeps sharing stories about Heidi. And for Janice especially, he becomes a. lifeline. Cuz Mike and their son grieve. in a different way. Like they're very. private, they're very quiet. But Janice. needs to talk about her daughter and. Daniel is always available to listen. By. the end of 2015, I mean, he's. practically family. He seems like a. steady source of support, someone who. cared about Heidi's future and shares.

their pain and their questions. But he. also said that he feels guilty because. of how everything went down. According. to Daniel, sometime the morning of. November 2nd or like in the early. afternoon, Heidi sent him a Snapchat. saying that he was a great guy and she. loved him, which wasn't like her. And then she sent another. And he. replied asking what was going on, but. she never answered. Court records show. that he sent her 16 messages over the. next few hours and none of them were. even read. And then later that day, his.

phone rang and it was Heidi's number. calling, but the voice on the line was a. man yelling that she was dead. Now, Daniel says he didn't even recognize the. voice as Francisco's. And he didn't. really like know him super well. Like. Daniel might have seen him around, but. they'd never spoken. He didn't really. even know his name. He said that he. didn't even connect the voice to him. until they met at the Gatliffe's that. evening. if. >> didn't even know each other, then why. did Francisco even reach out to him? Daniel says he doesn't know, but. Francisco was obviously aware of him.

because that night he pulled Daniel. aside and asked if they could talk. privately in Daniel's car. Even asked. him to turn off his police radio. Daniel. says Francisco told him that Heidi. really cared about him, like him being. Daniel, and then immediately asked, "Had. she ever talked about Francisco or said. anything about their relationship?" And. Daniel's like, "No, like I don't. remember her mentioning anything." Now, eventually Francisco got out of the car. Daniel says that he watched him go into. the Gatlift's house, which struck him as. odd because it was still an active crime.

scene. And then when he came out, he. stood in the driveway and in full view. of officers and mourners, urinated in. the yard. Uh I'm sorry, what? I know. It's like it's it's just. weird behavior. >> Yeah. >> Now, Daniel says that he feels awful. because he didn't realize how much Heidi. was struggling. And he also tells Janice. that he thinks Heidi and Francisco were. involved in some way. Now, when we. recently spoke to Daniel, he said that. he didn't realize what was happening at.

the time. That all the ride-alongs and. contact Heidi had with Francisco went. beyond what he had believed he approved. Like he'd been running the post for a. couple of years and says that he only. ever authorized a handful of. ride-alongs, including one for Heidi. And the way that he tells it, they were. tightly controlled. For 18 and up. explorers only, paired with another. student, and assigned to a short list of. approved officers. But there was an. earlier incident that stuck out. Daniel. says that sometime around the spring of. 2015, another explorer mentioned that.

Heidi went on a ride-along that he. hadn't approved, out of uniform and. outside of the normal process. As post advisor, Daniel should have. filed a report, but he says that it. didn't seem like a concern or a. complaint, more like a misunderstanding. So, instead of documenting it, he talked. to his supervisors, gave the group a. refresher on the policy, and pulled the. 18 and overs aside to remind them. He. wanted all ride-alongs to have his. approval, and anyone using a police.

radio had to be logged with dispatch so. that the department could know who was. where. But, he also told us that it felt. complicated to him. Like, Heidi was. technically an adult, and he didn't. think that he could dictate what she did. on her own. So, maybe out of all of this guilt he's. feeling, or his own grief, whatever, he. says that he's trying to be there for. her family and for the [music]. Explorers. And on November 3rd, again, this is the day after Heidi's death,

Daniel brought a counselor in for an. emergency Explorers meeting. Now, he. told us the department didn't help with. this. Like, there wasn't protocol for. handling something like traumatic like. this. But, there was a surprise guest. that showed up. Francisco. And it didn't seem like he was there for. the counseling. Daniel says that he was. like asking around, trying to find out. more about what had happened. And while. the Explorers were gathered with Daniel, there was this other group that was. meeting at the home of one of Heidi's. close friends named Corbin Myers. He.

invited their circle over so that they. could try to process what happened. And while they were all together, one of. the girls got an Instagram message from. [music] Francisco, who wanted her to. call him. And that's when Corbin's radar. started like going off. He knew that there had been some shady. stuff happening over the past few. months. [music] So, Corbin, being in the. beautiful one-party state of Indiana, decided to record their conversation. And on the call, Francisco repeated much.

of what he told detectives. But, he also. talked about his last call with Heidi. He said that she told him her life was a. mess, and that she'd been hurting people. and lying to them. And while he. downplayed their relationship to police, with her friends, he leaned into it, fishing, trying to. find out what they knew. Corbin actually. gave those recordings to police. And he also shared them with us. >> I don't know how much. of everything you knew about her.

Did you know everything? >> For the most part, yeah. >> Okay. Well, what I didn't know about. 3 weeks ago. is we've been hanging out and stuff and. she told me that we were just friends. She never said anything about liking me. She never said anything about that. We. were just hanging out. She told me that. she was seeing two other guys besides. me. Like just hanging out with two other. guys. >> What was your reaction to that?

>> Um. I was pretty upset in the beginning. I. told her that we should not. always see each other and she got really. upset. >> Yeah. >> And then she told me that she spoke to. another guy, which Do you know their two. names? I don't know if I Do you know. them? >> We know who they are, yeah. >> Francisco seemed especially fixated on. one of those men. >> She told me about him.

And she said that. that it uh. that she felt she was hurting. him. And I'm not really sure what the. relationship was prior to this, but she. said she was hurting him. >> He said he'd already compared notes with. this other guy. >> According to what he told me is. that she was telling him that they she. loved him. But unfortunately, she never. said those things to me except for the. day that she called me. I wish you guys could tell me more. I.

know that's what I was hoping that maybe. you guys had some answers to help me. >> Hang on. So, Francisco admitted there. was something going on between them? >> Well, after they hung up, he called. back. >> Like, what did she say about me? Like, like she considered what we had a. relationship. Like, how could you guys. say that? But, I wanted to know what why. she thought that. It wasn't something like a romantic. relationship. We never. It wasn't like that. We just hung out.

>> As Francisco started backtracking, Heidi's friends followed his lead. >> Did that say that to you guys that I was. more than just your friend? >> Um not as far as we know, no. >> But, I wanted to know if she ever said. that to you because. if she ever thought that we were more. than just that. And it's not that I. would be. mad at any- anything, but she just never. ever said anything to me like that. Like, hey, she never even told me she. liked me. It was nothing like that. So,

and I wish kind of she told you guys. that's what she felt about me, but I. just not. >> Okay. >> She didn't ever say anything about me. like that to you guys? >> Not that we can Not that we are aware. of. >> No. >> It's not It's not a It's not a big deal, but. the reason I I asked is cuz. I'm not really sure why. she called me. I spoke to the other.

guy that she said she's romantically. involved with She spoke to him yesterday. and kind of talked and. I don't really know what she was telling. him and what she was telling me, but I I. just wanted to make sure that I wanted. to see if that's what she meant when she. said relationship, if she thought that I. was more than. just her friend, like. someone she's in love with. >> Now, obviously, Corbin goes to Heidi's. parents with these calls. And By the.

way, just a side note, I love these. kids. Corbin and his friends sounded. better on those calls than some seasoned. investigators that I've heard. >> I know. I will send you the whole call. because honestly, like these guys are. chef's kiss. Like they sound like Crime. Junkies who have been taking notes since. birth and they do not come to play. So. anyways, Heidi's parents like get these. recorded calls. They already have Daniel. in their ear talking about Francisco, but they didn't need him to turn them. against the guy.

Between the way he unraveled the day. that Heidi died, his whole demeanor, and. now Corbin telling them about the calls, like they were sure something is up. >> So during this time, is Francisco in. contact with Mike and Janice? >> Tries to be at first, but he's not. admitting to any inappropriate. relationship with Heidi. And actually, while you have Daniel badmouthing. Francisco, Francisco is badmouthing. Daniel, telling Janice that the Explorer. program should have been shut down, that. under Daniel's leadership the teens were. barely supervised, and someone must have.

agreed with Francisco on that point at. least because Daniel says that within a. couple of weeks of Heidi's death, he was. moved to a new role. Officially, on paper it's a promotion, but to him it felt like a punishment, even though he was told he could stay. involved with the Explorers if he wanted. to. But regardless of the Explorers, he. still stays close with Heidi's family, even staying with them for a little bit. while he and his wife are going through. a divorce. He vacations with them that. spring. So, imagine the shock and the.

betrayal that they feel when they learn. who the other guy in Heidi's life really. was. He's another IMPD officer. And not just. any officer, it was the man who ran the. Explorer program. The man who lived with. them and vacationed with them, Daniel Bowman. In January 2016, Daniel's wife filed for. divorce. That's when he was staying with. Heidi's family. But this was no amicable.

divorce. In May, he ends up getting. arrested on more than a dozen charges. tied to domestic abuse against his. soon-to-be ex and family. Some stemming. from incidents that happened years. earlier. She tells police that he had. been violent and controlling, forcing. her to bark like a dog, punching her, shoving her into walls, threatening her. with his service weapon, even pointing. it at their sleeping daughter. And she. says it got worse after Heidi died. That. Daniel admitted that they had been.

involved, and he just spiraled. She left. because she feared what he would do. next. So, in the time between Heidi's. death in November and then his arrest in. May, dude had been unraveling. He moved. to that different position, which again, he saw as punishment. Then his wife left. him, and word was starting to spread. around the station that he had a. relationship with Heidi, too. Now, according to Daniel, those were just. rumors. He says started by Francisco and. a couple of other officers. He told Nina.

that they were the ones who contacted. his then wife and planted this idea in. her head. He says that he never implied. that he and Heidi were involved to his. ex or to anyone else. But based on what. we know Heidi told friends, they. believed that she and Daniel were. involved. Which again, Daniel denies. He told us. he cared about Heidi as a friend and. mentor, but insists that nothing between. them was romantic or sexual. >> Okay, but why is a grown man friends. with a teenage girl in his program? I.

mean, she would have been like 16 when. they met? >> Right, which in Indiana, 16 is the age. of consent. >> Mhm. But to be clear, >> Yeah, like still a minor. He's still in. a place of authority. Like, I'm sorry. >> And he's saying nothing happened. So, like, I agree. Like, he should not be. friends with a 16-year-old, especially. when, like you're saying, he's in a. position of power. But Daniel says that. he felt close to all of the older. explorers, and he swears that he and. Heidi were only alone twice, briefly, like as they left meetings. So, >> why is Heidi telling her friends things.

to make them believe that. he and Heidi are dating? >> But, Daniel told us that he's not sure. what gave her that impression. Maybe she. misread his goofing around, something he. says he did with everyone. >> But, if you're goofing around as a. supervisory officer gives a minor in. your care the impression that she has a. relationship with you? >> That's like the bigger problem, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You're the problem. >> Preach. >> And I guarantee that the goofing around. that's happening is highly.

inappropriate. >> Mhm. Either way, Daniel basically blames. Francisco and the other cops for all of. this. He says he documented what was. happening, and when he learned that one. of the initial detectives working. Heidi's case might have ties to. Francisco, he like sends this memo up. the chain. He saw himself as the good. guy, and we know that because of text. messages that he sent his wife. Text. that would later become part of the. probable cause affidavit for his. domestic violence arrest. On April 6th,

2016, he texted her, quote, I'll be a. hero, a whistleblower, fighting police. corruption. And if not, I have nothing to lose. You've taken everything I've ever worked. for. He took my only friend, end quote. And. then, on May 9th, 2016, he says, quote, Right now, I'm only interested in going. to. There's other cops' names that I'm not. going to say. And almost, and putting a. bullet in their heads. I'm furious. This. department failed. This city needs more. dead cops, end quote. [music].

Those messages are a big reason that his. wife contacted police. Like, his. communications were becoming more. threatening. And those I got straight. from a legal document, but Daniel told. us that he didn't write them. >> Of course. Of course. Then, please, Daniel, who did? He blames his now ex or like someone. close to her. Says that she had access. to his iMac and like she could have sent. them. That's his story.

Okay. Anyway, after Daniel's arrest, he. posts bond and goes home on electric. monitoring to await trial for the. domestic violence charges. And still at. this point, nothing had happened with. Heidi's case or with Francisco or the. Explorer program because they still have. not been able to get into Heidi's phone. It isn't until fall 2017 when new. technology becomes available that they. can finally crack it. And what they find makes it clear why.

Francisco wouldn't want them to see. their communications. It shows just how. manipulative he had been and how much. they had been in contact. All told, they. exchanged over 300 calls in the month. and a half just a month and a half. before her death and 177 texts in the. final three days. Now, I haven't seen. most of them. This is a closed case with. IMPD, but they're still withholding most. of the records including a lot of the.

texts. And listen, we've worked with a lot of agencies over. the years. IMPD has consistently been. one of the hardest to get records from. >> [music]. >> And when I say hardest, I do mean. impossible, which I hate to say about. the agency that's in my own backyard. But I have way better relationships with. other agencies. Like why the F doesn't. need to be so hard here? Like what are. we hiding something? >> Right. Like my mind goes to like why. not? >> But of the messages I can see, including. some from a probable cause affidavit,

Francisco's tone goes from like flirty. to furious. He berates her for lying and. gaslights her about this other officer. and demands to know where they stand. They end up talking three times on the. day that she died, and after the last. call he flooded her with messages, texting things like, "You can't do this. to me. You can't. I'm headed to your. house right now. And you're going to. make me look so stupid in front of your. family. You make me feel like this is really all. my fault." And the one thing that's more.

interesting than the texts is the data. showing that all of those messages. between Francisco and Heidi were deleted. around the time that he used her phone. to call Daniel. And after the messages. were wiped, that is when the phone was. locked. So, that November, more than 2. years after Heidi's death, Francisco is. arrested for felony obstruction of. justice and misdemeanor computer. trespass. Both him and Daniel are off.

the force, suspended without pay, facing. termination as their cases begin to. crawl through the court system. >> So, I'm kind of getting lost on like what. the truth. it is or was. Like, was Heidi involved. with. Daniel or Francisco or both? >> So, based on everything that we've. learned from court records, from. everyone we spoke to who had direct. knowledge of the situation, it appears. that Heidi was involved with both men.

>> Mhm. >> And that kind of dynamic, like one teen, multiple officers, is sadly not unusual. I mean, it it really underscores how. predatory some of the adults in these. programs can be. >> And did police find any texts between. Heidi and Daniel when they got into her. phone? >> So, here's what's interesting. I don't know where they find them, his. phone, her phone, whatever, but I know that they find texts. However, they don't actually charge him.

with anything related to Heidi, and. those texts never make it into any. record that we have access to. >> And IMPD won't share records. >> Yeah, right. So, in August of 2018, that. is when Daniel goes to trial for his. domestic violence charges. Now, he gets. found guilty on eight of the 13 counts, but that's all involving his then wife, not Heidi. >> Okay. >> So, the only way I know that there were. messages between him and Heidi that. seemed suspicious. is because of what happens next. So, in.

February of 2019, he gets deposed for. Francisco's case. And the prosecutor presses him on Heidi, reading their texts aloud and basically. saying that she thinks he's lying about. the nature of their relationship. But, his attorney jumps in and shuts it down, arguing that it could expose him to new. charges and that that is not relevant to. Francisco's case. >> Okay. If those texts could open him up to new. charges.

>> Mhm. >> and the prosecutor has those texts. >> Mhm. >> I I just ask this question, but what are. we doing here? >> Dude, I don't know. I like I don't I don't cuz I don't know. what's in them. >> I mean, maybe they knew they could only prove. the DV charges and figured he'd get like. a long enough sentence for those that. they wouldn't have to work Okay. >> Yeah, no, about that. So, according to. Indianapolis Star reporter Mark Alicia,

at Daniel's sentencing, the judge says. that she thinks he has a dark [music]. side but also says that his police. background makes prison more dangerous. for him. So, the judge considered it an. extenuating circumstance, but still. sentences him to eight years plus four. years probation. >> That's something at least. >> Mhm, but hang on. He wasn't in prison. long before his lawyer asked for home. detention, arguing that he wasn't safe. behind bars. I guess the defense did. some research, found out that the judge.

had the option to offer home detention. and that Daniel basically they're like. he has a job, he has a house, he has a. baby on the way with his new wife. Oh, oh by the way, he has a new wife. He has. older kids who depend on his paycheck. Prosecutors obviously objected, but a. different judge okayed it. And after. less than 4 months, Daniel was released. on electronic monitoring. So, he. finishes. the sentence in 2022. And since then, he.

has rebuilt his image in academia, branding himself as an advocate for. justice-impacted. students working in a university lab. that studies criminal legal and social. systems, and he's pursuing a PhD. To. this day, Daniel insists that the judge. got it wrong. He denies everything, the. abuse, the texts, the threats, any. inappropriate relationship with Heidi. >> Wait, people don't usually get paroled. without admitting. guilt. And And Daniel clearly hasn't.

So, I know it's not quite parole, but. like why did he get to sit at home. through all that? >> Dude, I wish I knew. The Marion County. Prosecutor's Office told us that the. lenient outcome was unusual, and they. don't seem to know why he got it. >> And what happened to Francisco? >> So, in 2022, Francisco Olmos pleaded. guilty to a reduced misdemeanor. obstruction of justice. He gets a year. of probation, 240 hours of community. service, and is ordered to submit weekly. journal entries to the court.

>> Ooh, wait. Just. hold on. There are no. police officers. in trouble for having a relationship. with a minor. in the police explorer program. >> Well, since we couldn't get records from. IMPD, I don't know if they even explored. that [music] angle. Heidi was a minor. when she entered the program, but she. was 18 when she died. and the only text. that we've seen are from when she was.

18. >> So, what are we supposed to take that to. mean? Like IMPD is just cool with. allegations of officers grooming minors? Till they turn 18, right? Like they're. cool with the power dynamic of an. officer having a relationship with. someone in their program. as long as they're 18? I mean. there were at least internal affairs. investigations in the Sandra Birchmore. case. Like that's. something. >> Well, I mean, remember IMPD did add a. policy this year, 2025. Like.

2015, 10 years later, they added a. policy this year saying they weren't. cool with it. >> But what is maddening to me is that more. than a decade after Heidi's death, so. much is still unclear. What did IMPD. know and when? >> Right. >> It's obvious that someone in leadership. saw something, at least with Francisco, because Janice told us that apparently. in the spring of 2015, so this is months. before Heidi died, a high-ranking. official pulled her aside and said that. they were concerned Heidi was riding.

with the same male officer a little too. often. He suggested that she, like, you know, maybe mix it up, ride with some. different officers. Now, Janice doesn't. remember if he named Francisco. specifically, but she knew that's who he. meant since Heidi often did ride-alongs. with him. So, she and Mike told Heidi. switch it up. They assumed she did. >> So, they were worried enough to tell her. mom, but not to actually do anything. themselves. >> We don't know what they did. >> Right. >> Meanwhile, despite what Daniel told us,

that he was in the dark about Heidi's. frequently tagging along with Francisco. on patrol, after she died, he told her. mom that everyone knew that they were. going on too many ride-alongs. Mike and. Janice still don't feel like they got. the full story, and they feel betrayed. knowing that two men who were supposed. to protect Heidi failed her. and those guys walked away with barely. any consequences. Now, our team has spent the better part. of a year trying to find out more. We.

filed multiple requests with IMPD, and. we got back a few records and like vague. assurances that they're working on. getting us more. And at the same time, they claim that they're withholding some. under an investigatory exemption, but. they haven't said what or why, considering both criminal cases are. closed. And they also declined an interview. >> answers are wait for it in the records. >> The records that they won't give us. >> Them the ones. >> Okay, so we're just like in this little. circle. >> Yeah. Now, we couldn't reach Francisco,

and neither he nor Daniel has ever. publicly admitted to anything beyond a. friendship with Heidi. But the general. feeling from people we spoke to, family, friends, people in the mix, is that both. crossed a line, and they put Heidi in. the middle, pressuring her to choose. between them. And that toxic triangle. dynamic isn't just our interpretation, either. We spoke to John Moore, who is a. former sergeant with the special. investigations unit at IMPD. He worked. the case against Daniel. He told us that. investigators broader takeaway was that.

Heidi was in an inappropriate. relationship involving both men, and. that they both groomed her using their. authority and access as officers to. build her trust and blur the boundaries. Court files have some details, but not. enough to show how closely investigators. looked at either of them. We don't know. how seriously they checked out Daniel's. relationship with Heidi or how deeply. they dug into Francisco beyond the. obstruction case. Between the delays and. the denials and the no comments, IMPD. has made it nearly impossible to. understand what really happened, and.

instead of answers, we got stonewalled. We don't even know how IMPD supervised. the Explorer post, but if Daniel's. account is accurate, he ran it mostly on. his own. There were about 30 teens on. the roster, maybe 10 regulars, and he. was the only sworn officer directly. involved. There was a sergeant who. offered light oversight and a few adult. volunteers that helped out, including. former explorers. And when Daniel took. over, he was a patrol officer with zero. youth experience. He basically says that.

he was handed the post with a "Here you. go." and no manual, just Learning for. Life handouts and IMPD's general orders, which he kind of cobbled together into a. rule book. And by the way, just as a. reminder, Learning for Life is the. organization that most explorer programs. in the country run through. And as I. mentioned, Learning for Life is an. affiliate of. >> Scouting. >> Yeah. AKA the Boy Scouts. I don't know. if you've ever heard of any abuse. problems with them, >> Right. >> but quick download, in 2020, the Boy. Scouts filed for bankruptcy after being.

hit with over wait for it 82,000 sexual. abuse claims, one of the largest abuse. scandals in US history. The organization. had known about the abuse for decades, keeping internal records commonly known. as the perversion files, but often. failing to report abusers to. authorities. So, all that to say, I bet. you would be surprised to know that in. 2015, Learning for Life still had no. guidance on adult communication with.

teens outside of meetings. No policy on. texting. Now, that same year, the Boy. Scouts adopted a digital version of what. they call two-deep leadership, meaning. that no one-on-one contact between like. adults and minors, including through. texting, DMs, or gaming, but Learning. for Life has its own handbook, and the. digital contact rule wasn't included. that year, and we couldn't find it in. there until 2017. So, to me, this isn't. just an Indianapolis problem. These. programs seem to be built in a way that. makes them prime for grooming, and the.

failures we're seeing here are happening. in agencies all over the country. And. there's no national public database for. explorer misconduct. I mean, we know. sexual abuse in general is notoriously. underreported. But there have been. reporters and researchers who tried to. pin down how widespread this problem is. A recent investigation by Lakisha Travis. of the Marshall Project identified at. least 217 abuse and misconduct. allegations in law enforcement explorer. programs going back to the 1970s when.

girls were first allowed in, spanning. more than 100 agencies with officers. grooming or sexually abusing victims as. young [music] as 13 or 14. A 2003 study. by criminologist Samuel Walker and Don. Erlbacher found that nearly half of all. reported cases of officer sexual. misconduct with teenagers happened in. explorer posts. So even though these programs are just. one way that cops interact with teens, they account for a disproportionate. share of the known abuse. And while. girls are more often targeted, boys and.

young men have been victimized, too. Now, supporters of the programs point. out that these cases are rare, a small. fraction of the tens of thousands of. teens who have participated since 1959. when a California Sheriff's Department. started the very first post. And listen, for sure, when operated properly, explorer programs can offer real value. Mhm. Participants usually 14 to 20 get. early exposure to police work while. building leadership, discipline, confidence, a sense of belonging.

Agencies get a recruitment pipeline, a. way to connect with the community. It. should be a win-win. >> Great. >> So how do we get the good without. putting children at risk? The answer is oversight. For posts under. Learning for Life, the organization is. supposed to set and enforce protection. rules with a five-point safety plan. Screen out abusers, educate youth, parents, and volunteers about warning. signs, set boundaries, encourage. reporting, remove offenders.

In practice, every safeguard lives or. dies at the local level. And as then a. freelance journalist Jonathan Kaminsky. found, historically, Learning for Life. has mostly left agencies to police. themselves. And inside that shaky setup. is a glaring vulnerability. Ride-alongs, the program's most popular. feature, and its riskiest. California-based attorney Anthony. DeMarco, who has spent years litigating. Explorer abuse cases, told us that.

ride-alongs are a perfect setup for. exploitation. Hours alone with a. powerful adult with no one else able to. see or hear what's happening, and almost. no real oversight from the department. >> But doesn't that two-deep leadership. rule apply? >> Everywhere except ride-alongs. At least. they were the exception until just this. past June, when Learning for Life. finally started requiring two adults in. the car if the Explorer is under 18. Before that, the loophole was wide open.

And the Marshall Project concluded that. ride-alongs factored into about a. quarter of abuse cases. But ride-alongs. are only part of it. These programs are. a perfect storm because they stack all. these risk factors together. Officers. get access to teens, oversight is often. thin, and the kids want to be there. They're ambitious. They want to impress. A lot of them see this as their future. And the structure can make it hard to. tell where normal training ends and. something sketchy begins. So when an.

officer singles them out with extra. attention, >> important. >> It's their big break instead of feeling. like a red flag. That's how grooming. usually starts here, not with threats, but with connection. An officer becomes a confidant, builds. trust, maybe gets close to the family. And that's just as true when the teen is. legally an adult like Heidi. A birthday. does not erase the power imbalance. And from there things can escalate, right? It's a ride home, a private.

hangout, late-night. By the time that it's clearly sexual or. coercive, the teen might actually feel. like they went along with it or that. speaking up would ruin everything, their. reputation, their shot at the job, their. future. Anthony says that there is often. this unspoken deal. Stay quiet. and the door stay open. Speak up and it slams shut. And victims might also be afraid, by the. way. >> They're cops. >> These are cops, yes. They carry weapons. They can arrest you. A lot of victims.

worry that they'll be targeted or that. no one is going to believe them. So many of them never even tell. Some of. them come forward years later. And even. when they do, there's no guarantee that. they're going to get justice. And this. isn't just a stat. So I did a bit of a. call out about the Explorer program, if. you remember, in our episode on Peggy. Hetrick. >> And not too long ago I posted a TikTok. asking people to share their stories. with me if they were in the program. Didn't say what kind of stories, just.

left it open. And the number of messages. I got from people was wild. So many of. them had stories from their past where. either they had friends that were in. intimate relationships with officers or. they themselves were groomed. And tons. of them still didn't want to come. forward even now. So the problem is so much bigger than we. think it is. But there were some people. who decided to share their story in. hopes that it could save even one more. young person from abuse.

And one of those people was a. 43-year-old woman who I'll call Kate. In 1998, then 15-year-old Kate joined. the Bow Police Explorer program in New. Hampshire. She'd grown up admiring a. dare officer and knew that she wanted to. be a cop. The post seemed like the. perfect first step. A small group of. teens led by Officer John LaRoche, who. was in his late 20s. And John's mom had been a teacher of. Kate, so he like already felt safe. And.

he knew how badly she wanted this. career. And he knew that she was. vulnerable. As a preteen, she'd. questioned her sexuality. Her parents. eventually came around, but for a while. they restricted what she could do. She. felt really cut off. And John acted like. the one adult who accepted her no matter. what. As the Explorer advisor, she. controlled everything. The program. included regular ride-alongs, sometimes. overnight shifts, and Kate was often. paired with him.

And her parents were fine with it. They. trusted him and supported her goals. But. it didn't take long for him to start. just like pushing boundaries. Within. months, she said that he was steering. conversations toward sex, making crude. jokes, asking her about her experiences, and oversharing his own, including that. he cheated on his wife. Now, at first. Kate didn't see it as wrong. It felt. like he was treating her like an equal. She actually felt special. But sometime around early 2000, Kate.

says that he assaulted her. It happened. in this dark secluded lot near the. county jail, this like boat launch that. he routinely checked while on patrol. And she tells us that one night he drove. there, made a comment about people. having sex there, and then told her to. get out of the car and perform oral sex. on him. And she said she didn't feel. like she had a choice. She was a teenage girl alone with an. armed officer, afraid of his reaction, afraid of ruining her future, so she. complied. Kate told us that there were.

more assaults in the months that. followed, all while he was on duty. At. one point, she says that John even. showed her a news article about another. cop getting arrested for assaulting an. Explorer. He then pulled out the New. Hampshire criminal code and read her the. exact statute, the one that described. what he was doing as felonious sexual. assault. Like Kate didn't want to anger. him, so she like tried to reassure him. Like she was over 16, the age of consent. in New Hampshire. But he corrected her, "If the adult is in a position of.

authority, the law is actually 18." So, he absolutely knew what he was doing. And he made sure Kate knew, too. And. after that, she changed. She became this. shadow of the fun-loving kid that her. friends knew. She tried to tell another. Explorer what was happening, but instead. of support, she got shamed. So, she. stayed in the post for a couple more. years. It did open doors for her. Like. she graduated high school early. She got. into a criminal justice program. Even. landed a civilian job with another. police department.

But the trauma followed her. She was. convinced that she let him on. That she. didn't deserve happiness. And eventually. she gave up her dream of becoming a cop. Now years passed, Kate got married. And. in 2013, she had a daughter. And there was something about becoming a. parent [music] that made her finally see. things differently. And she knew that. she'd want someone to be held. accountable if they did this to her. child. So in September of 2014, after a. lot of soul-searching, she actually.

reported John. He was long gone from. Boscawen by then. He was actually chief. of police in nearby Canterbury at that. time. But since he and the Boscawen chief had. worked together, the case was handed. over to the New Hampshire Attorney. General's Office. Investigators asked. Kate to wear a wire and confront him. And listen, she hadn't seen him in ages, and the prospect of this was like. overwhelming, but she agreed. And she goes to meet him at the. Canterbury station. And on tape, they. have this guy admitting to the sexual.

activity. Even apologizing, though he. was like insisting it was consensual. And later, when investigators confronted. him again, he repeated the confession. And according to WMUR's Heather Hamel, he even said that he thought it was. {quote} "fun to flirt with a 16-year-old. under his control." What? In August. 2015, John was arrested for aggravated. felonious sexual assault and placed on. unpaid leave. And news coverage shows. that he was indicted on a slew of felony.

and misdemeanor sexual assault charges a. couple of months later. Then he resigned. the following January. By summer of. 2016, the case went to trial. He. actually took the stand where again he. admits to the sexual encounters with. Kate, but is still claiming they were. consensual. >> How can he call it consensual. when the law literally says it [music]. wasn't? And also he pointed out that. law. >> Literally, that's what prosecutors. argued that like the whole thing was. grooming and coercion. They brought in.

an expert on trauma and pressed him on. his changing stories. But John's defense. painted him as like this like bumbling. and harmless guy and suggested that Kate. had financial motive to go after him. Two former explorers testified that she. had quote bragged about the. relationship. And so after seven days of. testimony, [music] the jury deliberated. for just two hours. And they found him not guilty on all. charges. >> [laughter].

>> I know. >> In In what world was he. not in a position of authority? Like. this is unreal. >> According to Kate, prosecutors later. asked jurors what shaped their decision. And you know, they said they just. couldn't picture John being a violent. guy. And they questioned why she would. stay in the program. Some people thought she cried too much. Some people thought she didn't cry. enough or that she seemed to just too. strong. >> So it it didn't matter what she did or. was going to do. It was the wrong. reaction. She was never going to make.

herself the perfect victim for them. >> Which is like what we see all the time, right? Like survivors are held to. impossible standards. They're expected. to fit this narrow script. Like be. composed but not too composed. Remember. every detail, even though trauma. distorts memory. >> And if they don't match what people. think a real victim, quote unquote, looks like, they're not believed. Kate. was crushed. The Attorney General's. office encouraged her to file a civil. suit. Like some survivors pursue that. even when criminal charges don't stick, but she just couldn't stomach another. courtroom. Like the public backlash was.

already intense, and she worried that. suing would make people dismiss her. story. Like think it was just about. money, so she decided against it. The. upside is that John LaRouche is no. longer a cop. And after he was. suspended, locals raised broader. concerns about Canterbury PD. So, the. Sheriff's office reviewed the. department, and they actually found over. a decade of mismanagement and. dysfunction under his leadership. Now, we reached out to John via text. He told. us that there was nothing to discuss.

since he was found not guilty. And when. we noted that he still admitted to. sexual contact with a minor explorer, and asked if he had anything to say now, nearly a decade later, he said that he'd. already answered for it at trial, and. told us to lose his number. No one at. Bosque PD today was around during John's. [music] time or the explorer era. But. the chief told us that the program was. shut down long before John's arrest, and. that no other complaints were ever. reported. Speaking out even now still. feels risky to Kate, emotionally and.

legally. Like we're using a pseudonym, but that's not going to hide her. identity from him or the community, but. she decided it was worth it. Silence. hadn't protected her. It only protected. him, and she wants people to know what. happened. And she hopes that her story. helps someone else get justice, even. though she didn't. And Kate's not alone. in that hope, or. >> [music]. >> even that outcome. For many survivors, justice stays just out of reach. The. Marshall Project found that only about.

half of the explorer-related cases that. they tracked led to any time behind. bars. Big reason is because of plea. deals. Charges just get like reduced to. misdemeanors or to non-sex offenses. Beyond Explorer Post, a Washington Post. investigation found that nearly 40% of. officers convicted of sex crimes. involving children from 2005 to 2022. never served a day in [music] prison. And when there is punishment, there is. no real standard of what that is. Charges fall under this like mix of.

state and federal laws, statutory rape, abuse of power, civil rights violations. Prosecutors don't always use the same. playbook even when the behavior looks. similar, and so sentencing is all over. the place. >> Right. >> Inside agencies, discipline is just as. inconsistent. Some officers are fired, some resign, others stay on the job with. reprimand or short suspension, or. sometimes nothing at all. And that's. what happened in Jennifer's case. In the. late '80s, Jennifer joined the Contra.

Costa County Sheriff's Explorer program. in California after hearing about it at. school. She was 15 and already set on a career. in law enforcement. And this post was. smaller, like fewer than 10 teens and. run entirely by one deputy. who we're going to call Bill. Bill, who was in his mid to late 30s, started inviting Jennifer on overnight. ride-alongs a couple of times a week. Her parents were fine with it. She was with a cop, like what could be. safer? And over the next couple of. years, he slowly introduced her to.

inappropriate behavior, things like. telling her how beautiful that she was. going to be when she grew up. She. trusted him, believed what he said, and. valued his opinion. She idolized this. man. So, when one night he turned around. in the patrol car and kissed her, she was stunned, but also flattered. A month later, he. took her to his house while his wife was. away and pressured her to have sex. Now, she said no, and he stopped that time. Now, soon after, her family moved to. Florida, and before leaving, she.

confided in another Explorer. Not as. like a cry for help like Kate, more like. she was. mourning the end of something that she. thought was real. Like in her mind, what. they had had been a relationship. That. Explorer told the sheriff's office. And. to their credit, they opened an. investigation. But by then, Jennifer was. across the country. So, everything was. happening over the phone. with her, but only with her. >> What do you mean only her? They didn't.

talk to her parents? >> Mhm. They had no idea that that. >> Even though she was still a minor? >> Yeah, it's wild. And like in that. moment, since Jennifer was like so. embarrassed, she minimized it. But she. did at least confirm that they kissed. and that the relationship was. inappropriate. The sheriff's office. didn't respond to our interview request. But as far as we know, the investigation went nowhere. Bill didn't lose his badge. Records show. that he did step down as Explorer. Advisor in 1991,

but he stayed on the job for nearly two. more decades. [music] Jennifer joined. another Explorer post in Florida. This. one larger and more structured. But the same problems persisted. She. remembers the comments, like the. lingering attention from male cops of. all ages. At the time when she's young, it didn't feel predatory. It felt like. being noticed. She went through the. academy, worked as a dispatcher, and. became a reserve officer. But the steady boundary pushing wore her.

down. And eventually, she realized. these are not superheroes. They are just. human men in uniforms. Some good, some. not. So, when she got pregnant, she left the. field. Last year, while flipping through. an old photo album, Jennifer decided. that she actually wanted to confront. Bill. But that's when she found out that. he died. So, there would be no. reckoning, no chance to look him in the. eye and tell him what he'd done to her. And she carried shame for years, blaming.

herself. And only later did she. understand how vulnerable teens are and. how men like Bill take advantage of. that. Heidi, Kate, Jennifer, and so many. others, they did what adults told them. to do. They trusted the people in. charge. And so did their parents. I. mean, go back to Heidi. Take Mike and. Janice Gatliffe. They were so involved. It's not like they just dropped Heidi. off and hoped for the best. Mike went to. her first meeting. They showed up to. events. But they were also trusting the. system and thought that Heidi was.

surrounded by honorable cops worthy of. their powerful positions. You know, they. still believe the law enforcement. explorer programs can work if there's. real oversight and accountability. But. they don't think Heidi got that. And. they have to live with the ache of. knowing that they'll never see her huge. smile or hear her contagious laugh. again. She'll never wear the badge that. she worked so hard for, pouring nearly. 2,000 hours into the explorers. So, what. they hold on to now is their faith and. their memories. The way that Heidi could.

turn everything into a joke. The moment. that she made a quiet child in Haiti. smile during a missions trip just by. refusing to give up. They know that. Heidi changed lives simply by being who. she was. >> [music]. >> And her compassion and her drive and her. goofy sense of humor all came from one. place. A heart that was wired to show up. for others. >> So, in all of this, I have I have to. ask, does IMPD still have its program? >> When Detective Christine Mannina took. over after Daniel Bolman, she told us.

that it was basically a free for all. Like teens tried to outrank her and like. boss her around. So, So, back then she came in. She set new. rules, tightened boundaries. Some of the. kids left. Most of them stayed. And she. ran the program for like 5 years before. she retired. >> [music]. >> And to answer your question, no, they. They have an explorer program now. They. have something called Junior Cadets, but. as of late October, IMPD told us no one. was enrolled in that. So, whether that's. a fresh start or just a rebrand remains.

to be seen. Because a new name doesn't. mean new safeguards, and those. safeguards are what's necessary because. this isn't just about a few bad apples. This is I keep saying it about a system. that allowed them to operate, policies. that left massive gaps, higher-ups that. looked the other way or downplayed. allegations, and a culture that. protected [music] the institution first. and the kids last. And girl, this isn't. even a new problem. Like, F the stats, this has been a systemic issue for. decades. Like, I don't know if you knew.

this, but in the '70s, the Los Angeles. Police Department found itself under. investigation after some officers were. discovered taking overnight camping. trips with teenage girls from the. department's all-female Explorer post, and one of the girls described these. camping trips as, quote, "little more. than orgies." According to reporting, it. had been happening for like a couple of. years before an Explorer finally sounded. the alarm. In that case, some officers. were charged, but news coverage shows. that most of the cases just collapsed.

Prosecutors cited a lack of evidence and. victim cooperation. In some cases, they. say they couldn't prove that the. officers knew that the girls were. underage. I guess it was too much detective work. for them to like figure out that the. girls in a youth program were. youths. Yeah. And department discipline was also weak. Like, a few resigned, a few were. suspended, one was fired. One got a. disability pension for injuries and. emotional stress. Others were cleared. And then, like, by the late '70s, the. whole thing just like fizzled out in the. media. According to Jonathan Kaminiski's.

reporting, it had been happening for a. couple of years before the Explorer. sounded the alarm. It doesn't have to be. this way. Some groups are doing it. right, like the Dutchess County. Sheriff's Office Law Enforcement Youth. Cadet Program in New York. Their. advisor, Sergeant Alonzo Montaña, has. built guardrails into every part of it. Communication runs through tracked group. platforms. Parents are looped in early. and often, and historically, they. haven't even allowed ride-alongs at all. When Nina spoke with Sergeant Montagna. earlier this year, they were just. starting to phase them in with [music].

very strict rules. And we spoke to a. woman named Dawn Boley in Wisconsin. She. says that she joined her local Explorer. post in the early 1980s when she was a. freshman in high school. She learned. skills like conflict resolution, emergency response, even firearms. training. She loved her program leaders. and says that they changed her life and. the lives of others in the program. For. Dawn, it wasn't just a resume builder, it was formative. It showed her how to. stay calm under pressure and that being. a cop wasn't the path for her at all. So, >> it's not the Explorers that need to.

stop. >> Yes. >> As usual, it's just the abuse. >> Yes. But any meaningful change has to. start with the agencies running these. programs. They're the ones with the power and the. obligation to enforce the rules. >> Yeah, and. my god, be thoughtful about who you put. in charge. Don't just grab whoever's. free and hand them a group of teenagers. I mean, like, right now, the. qualifications are pretty minimal. Advisors have to be at least 21, pass a.

background check, and get agency. approval, and then be signed off by the. local Exploring Council. >> And do they go through any like serious. safety training? >> Not really. So, beyond the background. check, the like training they have to do. is pretty much just online webinars. And. actually, Nina, when she was doing all. the reporting on this, she took them and. earned the same safety certification. that advisors get while sitting on her. couch in one night. >> Salute to Nina. >> Salute to Nina. Now, the recent. ride-along policy change by Learning for.

Life, which by the way, never responded. to our interview requests, is a step in. the right direction. But rules on paper. are the easy part. We still don't know. how or how often that policy is enforced. or what actually happens to agencies. that ignore it. That attorney I. mentioned, Anthony DeMarco, sees the. problem as systemic. Officers are given. unsupervised access to minors, then. protected by a culture and union. contracts that often shield them from. serious consequences even when there is. misconduct. His view is, "Don't just.

slap a band-aid on the problem. Right. Make it as transparent and accountable. from the ground up starting with. ride-alongs." So, what can we do? >> Right. >> Here you go. I love to leave you with a. good takeaway. So, if you're a parent, an agency, or a teenager in the program, I got you covered. So, agencies, define. inappropriate conduct clearly, things. like shoulder rubs or oversharing, and. act early with serious discipline or. termination before it escalates. Make. ride-along assignments random so.

officers can't quietly handpick the same. teams over and over. Use tech like. interior audio and video in patrol cars, GPS tracking, maybe even like an Uber style recording. that kicks in for every ride. The thing. is like Anthony thinks that there would. be a lot of pushback on that idea from. cops and explorers. >> Okay. >> But like, who cares? Like in my mind, if. it protects even one kid, it's worth the. discomfort. Now, parents, if your child wants to join an Explorer. Cadet program,

do not assume uniforms mean it's safe. Treat it the way you would a new school. or a daycare when your kids were little. Like, ask who runs the post, what are. the rules, how are ride-alongs tracked, what's the policy on texting and social. media, how are complaints handled. Stay. involved, show up, talk to advisors, connect with other parents. The more. visible you are, the easier it is for. your kid to speak up if something feels. off. And keep the conversation going at. home. Talk about boundaries. Make sure. your kid knows that they can come to you.

if an adult, even if it's someone in. uniform, >> Especially someone in uniform. >> if they make them uncomfortable. Remind. them that abuse is never their fault. And if they disclose it, go straight to. the authorities. If local law. enforcement shrugs it off or you're. concerned about a conflict of interest, go above them to state or federal. agencies. And for my youths listening, explorers or no explorers, you guys are. faced with crazy [snorts]. all the time. I wanted to be 20 when I. was eight and I was like dying for.

someone to look at me like I was older. and mature. And some people will do that with. respect. They're going to give you. responsibility and the room to come into. your own. But others are going to try. and take advantage. I didn't know what. the signs were when I was young. So, let. me talk to you like the grown-up you. are. You are not an idiot. So, if you feel. like a line is being crossed, you get. that like tingling in your spine or that. jelly in your belly, you know something. is off. You do not have to justify it. You don't.

have to excuse it away. It's not your. responsibility to make adults feel. comfortable. And you do not have to protect them from. their own actions. And if you realize it too late, no, you didn't. It is never too late to. draw the line and stop unwanted. behavior. And it is never your fault. Doesn't matter if it's a cop or your. pastor or a teacher or a coach. Whether. it's an explorer program or somewhere. else, you don't owe anyone your time,

attention, or access. If an officer asks to be alone or sends. flirty, secretive messages or just gives. you a bad feeling, tell someone you. trust. And if something already happened, you. are not to blame. Even if you didn't or couldn't say no in. the moment, even if it felt like. something you agreed to, power dynamics. can twist what feels like a choice. And you deserve support, no matter what. So, Crime Junkies, if any part of this.

episode hit home, if you know someone. who's been affected by abuse in any. youth setting or you just want those. spaces to be safer, talk about this. Share this episode. We can do better. We have to. For Heidi. and Kate and Jennifer and for the next. teenager who walks into an Explorer post. with the dreams of one day wearing a. badge. If you or someone you know is. struggling or has experienced abuse, help is available. We're going to link. resources in our show notes including.

hotlines for sexual assault, child. abuse, domestic violence, and suicide. prevention. Please reach out if you need. to or share them with someone who might. As always, you can find all the source. material for this episode on our website. crimejunkie.com. And if you want to listen to more. episodes like this and all of our. episodes completely ad-free, be sure to. join our fan club. You'll also get early. access to new episodes every week and. bonus content every month. >> And you can follow us on Instagram at. crimejunkiepodcast. >> We'll see you next episode.