Alyssa Romine-Olson: The Pond, the Timeline and the Missing Evidence

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley. Flowers. >> And I'm Britt. >> And guess what, Gilbert PD? We're back. [laughter]. We saw the responses all you crime. junkies had to our episodes out of. Gilbert, Arizona. Rachel Hansen, Nick. Cordova, Laura Sweetman, and we heard. your call to tell more of their cases, the lesserk known ones, the ones that. you really need to dig into to get to. the bottom of. Well, little did you. know, [music] we were already waste deep.

and we're about to fill you in. The case. I have for you today is one that has. been spun every which way by the police. [music] and the media. And that's meant. that for over 10 years, one family has. been forced to bury their grief. But. today, we're telling you the real story. of a woman who was found [music]. floating naked and face down in the pond. of a local nature preserve [music] in. 2016. And the headline is, don't believe the.

headlines. This is the story of Alyssa. Romanine Olsen. It's June 10th, 2016 when Alyssa Roman. Olsson's body is found floating in a. pond at the Riparian Preserve in. Gilbert, Arizona. And almost as quickly. as she is removed from the water, authorities start crafting a story. One. about a 30-year-old woman who was. depressed, [music] who was suffering due.

to recent health problems, who just. separated from her husband of nearly. four years and moved back in with. [music] her parents. In local news. articles, the word is never used. But to. Alyssa's family and friends, the Gilbert. community, the insinuation is clear. Whatever happened to Alyssa, she did it. to herself. [music] So, no foul play. involved. No threat to the public. And. therefore, those who heard the story in. the local community felt no need to put.

pressure on the Gilbert Police. Department to [music]. rush their death investigation. In all honesty, when our reporter Nicole. started looking into this case, that was. her first impression, too. She actually. called me from Arizona and she was like, "Hey, you know, like based on what I'm. seeing, what's out there, like I'm not. really sure that there's a mystery. here.". >> And she was like, "So, I know I told you. we might cover this, but like I I don't. I don't think so.". But then we got the case file and that.

combined with conversations that we've. had with Alyssa's family and friends or. anyone she went to church with and the. media story began to crumble under its. own weight. Now to unravel this threat, we have to start at the beginning so. that you can understand who Alyssa was. before her body was pulled from that. pond and the days, weeks, and months. leading up to that moment. So Alyssa was. one of 12 children in the Roine. household and her parents only. biological daughter.

According to her younger sister, Chelsea, she had a quiet way of. connecting with people. She was innately. nurturing, regularly babysitting younger. siblings and neighborhood kids, but she. wasn't someone who constantly sought the. spotlight. Alyssa was just as content. spending time on her own journaling or. listening to music in her room. Now, importantly, religion was always a part. of Alyssa's life. She grew up in a. non-denominational Christian family, but. in her late 20s, Alyssa underwent a kind.

of spiritual awakening, and her faith. became the guiding force in nearly every. [music] aspect of her life. She joined a. new church and threw herself into a. level of religious devotion that even. her family hadn't practiced. Like even. for the two of us who grew up in like a. borderline evangelical world, like. Melissa was next level. She relied on. God to tell her like even what clothes. to wear or what to eat. She didn't like. material things and she rid herself of. most of her personal belongings. So her.

life became about her religion and. evangelizing. And it was around this time, which would. have been like mid 2012, that Alyssa met. her future husband Braden at the. International House [music] of Prayer. The two were immediately drawn to each. other. They had similar beliefs and. specifically valued an evangelical form. of Christianity. And their relationship. moved really fast. Like within a couple. of months, Chelsea told us that the. couple went on a road trip together. And. then they got back and boom, Alyssa told.

her family that Jesus wanted her to. marry Braden and they had a wedding that. winter. >> And they were cool with that. >> Well, her family wasn't like against it. Like Braden seemed nice enough. Alyssa. seemed happy. Well, the truth was they. really didn't even know Braden. I mean, the siblings that we spoke to said that. he was very outgoing and a people person. to like the max, >> but they didn't really get to spend much. time with [music] him. >> Partly because the relationship. progressed so quickly, but also because.

after getting married, Alyssa and Braden. began to live a nomadic life. They were. traveling around the country together to. preach and minister to anyone who would. listen. >> And did they work? >> They didn't. Right. Like, so they didn't. need much. And for around three years, the two of them kind of just couch. surfed or crashed with friends. And. Alyssa's parents would help them out. sometimes financially. And by all. accounts, they were attached at the hip. I mean, like they shared social media. accounts, they shared a cell [music]. phone, which they rarely even answered.

And speaking to a lot of people who knew. Alyssa, it seems like she kind of. distanced herself [music] from the rest. of her relationships. like her whole. world became about her husband and her. [music] faith which kept becoming more. and more radical and they likely would. have continued down this path. But. something happened that altered [music]. it around January of 2016. That's when Alyssa suffered an ectopic. pregnancy and had to be hospitalized. because of significant blood loss. That.

medical event forced her to move back to. Gilbert to live with her parents so she. could have like a home base to rest and. to recover. >> Braden had moved back to Arizona with. her initially. But two months in they. decided to separate. >> because of her pregnancy. >> No, not because of her pregnancy. Actually, the very thing that brought. them together is what made them. separate. uh their intense commitment to. their faith that became the primary. reason like or the thing that drove them. apart like as much as he wanted to.

Braden said that he struggled to live up. to the strict religious standards which. Alyssa held so dear. >> He said that he couldn't follow the. Lord's ways as closely as elicited. >> Like what does that mean? like how. >> for him it was like watching porn, thinking about other women, wanting to. drink and smoke, wanting material things. like a house and a job so that he could. pay for said house. So, the pair decided. to separate and Braden moved back to.

Washington to live with his mom. Now, this is all around April of 2016. [music]. Now, without Braden, Alyssa's life. honestly didn't change much. She was a. woman of routine and she didn't stray. from it. According to her parents, every. morning bright and early, she woke up, had her coffee, drove to the public. library in her dad's car, walked through. this nature preserve area right behind. the library called the Riparian, [music].

and she would find a spot to journal and. read her Bible. She would be there a. while, like from like 700 a.m. to noon. every single day like clockwork, except [music] on June 9th, 2016. On this day, Alyssa leaves for the. Riparian in the morning, but then the. clock stops. [music] She never came. home, not at noon or by 7, which is when. her parents start to get worried. I. mean, they try calling her, but it's. going straight to voicemail. And we know.

that Alyssa is pretty unplugged. So, like, you know, this isn't necessarily. weird immediately. But when 1000 p.m. rolls around and there is still no word. from her, Alyssa's parents, Barbara and. Ed, they decide to drive over to the. library themselves. [music]. And right away, they find Ed's blue 2002. Dodge Caravan parked [music] in the lot. It's locked, so Ed opens it up with his. spare key, but nothing is a miss, which. does really nothing to calm them. In. fact, when they call another daughter of.

theirs, Michelle, who [music] comes. rushing over in her pajamas, her first. thought is that Alyssa must have been. kidnapped. So, not knowing what else to. do, her and her parents just start. running through the riparian in the. dark, screaming Alyssa's name, continuing to call the phone that she. isn't answering. >> And how big is this area? Like, this. park. >> huge. So, it's 110 acres with seven. different ponds along like hiking trails. and a fishing lake. So, Alyssa's family.

quickly realizes that they might be in. over their heads. And that's when Ed. calls the police. It's Gilbert PD who. takes the report. And according to. Michelle, they sort of like cordon off. some entrances of the park, but they. don't really start searching right away. I don't know if it's cuz it's too dark. or what the reasoning is, but it isn't. until the next day that a real search. ensues. They contact hospitals, churches, jails. They search her room at. home to see if maybe she left anything. behind, saying where she might be going.

She didn't, obviously. And when they. ping her phone via T-Mobile, they see. that it's been turned off since 10:00. a.m. the day of her disappearance, which. means they can't get a location or. apparently even like a location history. Well, and now they're a full day behind, >> right? So, their best bet is just to put. all their resources into searching the. preserve and the area around the. library. Now, the public library has a. surveillance camera facing the south. parking lot where Alyssa parked her.

dad's car, but according to the police. file, the specific spot that Alyssa. parked in is, of course, out of view. And the park itself has no cameras. So. investigators have to rely on their own. searches of the area to try and. understand how Alyssa's last movements. may have played out. They bring in. tracking dogs. They bring in helicopters. with thermal imaging. And [music] at. 2:42 p.m., the Maricopa County Sheriff's. Office air unit finds her. And her body.

is sort of hidden by brush. But from an. aerial view, there is no mistaking what. they're looking at. It is a nude body. floating face down in one of the ponds. And actually, while we know Alyssa was. found in a pond, I'm honestly more. inclined to call the exact spot that she. was in like a puddle. Like, she must be. on the water's edge or something because. according to the file, the water next to. her left ankle was 5.5 in deep. And next. to her right ankle, it wasn't even like.

an inch. >> She's naked, though. >> Yeah. And her clothing, by the way, like. all of her belongings, actually, like. nothing is around her. It's not there. It's not in her car, nothing. So, while. they work to remove Alyssa's body from. the preserve and send it for autopsy, they go looking for her things, right? Like, where are her clothes? Not even. just her clothes. Where's her journal? Where's her cell phone? Where are her. keys? >> None of those things are ever found. What is found in and around this area.

are other clothes. Some in the dumpster. of the library parking lot, some under. nearby bushes. [music] There's one sock. that they find in the pond. But they end. up DNA testing all of this and none of. it is Alyssa's. [music]. And interestingly, they also find a full. latex glove on a dirt path. And there's. something else that seems to suggest. Alyssa wasn't alone out there when she. died. In the mud, there is this set of.

footprints and a set of prints that show. a shoe tread. So now the question is, if. someone else was out there, who. >> and are they still out there? >> Right? Gilbert PD has an important. opportunity here to use the media and. the Gilbert community to their. advantage, like to put out a press. release to canvas for people who had. been in or near the park, anyone who had.

seen or heard anything. >> But you've probably figured out by now. that is not what is about to happen. When Gilbert PD first makes any kind of. statement to the local community via the. press, they're not pushing out critical. information or warning the public of a. possible threat. Rather, the story is. spun up for the media, twisted in such a. way to assure the Gilbert community that.

there is nothing to worry about at all. >> I mean, if we aren't going to call this. foul play, what are we doing here? I. think that they're leaning heavily on. the autopsy report to justify this. [music] stance, which when that's done. says that Alyssa's cause and manner of. death are both undetermined. [music]. In her report, the medical examiner. writes, "Therefore, because it is. unknown how or exactly when the deedant.

came to be face down within the water, and because there are no gross anatomic. abnormalities potentially causing or. related to death, it is my opinion that. Alyssa Nicole Olsen, a 30-year-old. Caucasian female, died as a result of. undetermined.". >> Wait, was there no water in her lungs? No, none. >> Are we supposed to accept that people in. Gilbert just keep dying without. explanation?

>> I know. Now I get why the Emmy might. have ruled undetermined. Like her. toxicology was totally clean. No. surprise there. And there were no lethal. signs of trauma. just some like. post-mortem abrasions along her right. side, which can be caused by a number of. like inconsequential things like contact. with debris in the water or animal. activity, >> but also like intentional postmortem. actions like moving or dragging a body, >> right? And real quick, interesting.

tidbit. There is a note about mud being. on Alyssa's hands and a significant. amount of it being like caked onto her. toes and the balls of her feet, >> which kind of tracks cuz there's like. footprints. Right. >> Right. And the shoe prints. But I don't. know if they're ever able to determine. if those are her prints or not. Because. if they did any comparison, it might be. in one of the heavily redacted areas of. the case file, like the section of her.

autopsy labeled evidence. >> Oh, the other heavily redacted area is. where they talk about the sexual assault. kit that they did at the autopsy. In the file, it says [music] the DNA. profile from it matched Alyssa's. profile. So, like no entry was made into. Cotus. But then right after that there. is a line that says scientific lab. report continued. Great. Would love to. read it. >> Yeah. >> Except the text is all redacted.

>> Which I mean to me if all the DNA. matched Alyssa, >> why. >> why would you need to redact anything? >> Why? And what's even more interesting is. that her sister Chelsea told us that the. family was told by police that they. would never know on the question of. sexual assault because Alyssa's body was. found in water which would have washed. away any evidence. >> But the water wasn't it just by her. ankles. >> I mean I guess that's what it was like. where she was found. But I mean we don't. know if her body was moved around at all. in the pond. Plus like if it did right.

if if it was like completely washed away. evidence. She's in the water for so. long. What are we What are we redacting? >> I say we're still redacting. >> What's going on? [laughter]. >> And you know, while we're on this, like. I can also see the fingernail clippings. Hers were tested. >> Those results are redacted, too. So, with all of this, what's coming into. view is the possibility that Alyssa. might have been met with foul play in. the park. And from the file, I know that.

Gilbert PD saw that, too. In it, investigators routinely call the area. where Alyssa was found a crime scene. They write that they believe, quote, "Someone did cause Alyssa's death, and. that quote, there were things associated. with the way Alyssa was found that may. indicate another person was involved.". >> So, why won't they tell the public that? >> That's what I don't know. Like, I get. not giving away case details broadly, and it's not like they're. >> making things up, right? They're not.

straight up lying to the public, but. it's more like they're really not giving. any proper context. What is getting. published are just stories where all. anyone can talk about is Alyssa's. depression, her quote unquote health. problems, and her recent move back home. And all of that when they read it feels. like a gut punch to Alyssa's family. [music] who are already in a state of. shock and confusion because like one.

minute they do they have police asking. them for a list of people that they like. think they should be looking into and. then the next minute they're reading. about her death in the paper like it's a. suicide. >> Were reporters getting suicide from. police? >> That's what I'm saying. They were not. getting the word suicide. No. like the. police can't say that. That would be a. straightup lie. It is undetermined. >> But after reading the news, Michelle. starts to like put something together. And she remembers that in her family's. initial conversation with police, it.

felt like they were trying to steer the. conversation in a specific direction, asking if Alyssa was depressed, like was. she sad? Did she eat enough? And if you. read the police reports, you'll see that. they spend an outsized amount of time. explaining that Alyssa had been keeping. to herself. She'd barely eaten in the. last few days and she was depressed. But. what they neglected to include was that. Alyssa was naturally an introverted. person, that she never had a voracious.

appetite, and she had recently not been. as hungry because she was recovering. from her ectopic pregnancy. Yeah. which. Braden said she had prayed over and made. peace with. [music]. And more than anything, core to Alyssa's. religious belief was that suicide was. wrong. Forget the fact that her family, who had just seen her, said that she was. happy and not suicidal, never even. talked about suicide. All of that is. true, but she had talked about others.

who committed the act, and she said that. those weren't true believers. One of. Alyssa's good friends, Blake, told us. that there was quote literally almost a. 0% chance that Alyssa would take her own. life, just like based on her religious. values. [music]. He said it would go against her whole. self. And none of that that I just told. you made it into the articles about. Alyssa. >> Did no reporters reach out to Alyssa's.

family themselves to get any of this. context? >> It's worse than that. The media did try. to contact the Romans early on. The. family turned them away, not because. they didn't want to speak, though. According to Chelsea, investigators. specifically told them not to talk to. anyone about anything, especially. [music] the media. They say that. everything about the case is. confidential and if anyone finds. anything out, it could compromise the. investigation. [music] And so even.

feeling like knocked down, confused, at. this point, the Romines are still. putting their full trust in police, even. as they like are reading the stuff that. is so blatantly like not their view of. their Alyssa. And so they do as they're. told. They don't go to the media and. they don't try to correct the [music]. reports that they feel are painting a. false and extremely hurtful picture. They sit back and hope that this is all. part of a bigger [music] plan. But the.

bigger plan takes them by complete shock. cuz police don't seem to focus heavily. on any of the people that the Romine. family told them to look into. In fact, investigators start looking at someone. that most of the family wasn't. suspicious of for no other reason, it. seems, than the fact that he was. Alyssa's husband of nearly four years. And Braden and Alyssa had recently. decided to separate. And you always look.

at the husband first, right? Before we get into Braden's interviews. with police, I want to go back to the. day that Alyssa was reported missing, which is June 9th. Both the police and. Alyssa's mom, Barbara, [music] tried. calling Braden to alert him. Both calls. went to voicemail. Then her dad, Ed, looked up Alyssa's cell phone activity. on their shared account and found that. Alyssa and Braden had spoken over the. phone the night before she disappeared. for around two hours, which just made.

him want to reach Braden even more. So. Ed decided to call the family that. Braden was staying with. >> the family like not his. He wasn't. Wasn't he living with his mom? Well, so. according to the police report, he was. when he first moved back to Washington, but they had a falling out over the. extent of his religious beliefs, which. ended in him storming out. So he ended. up calling this close family friend that. he'd stayed with before, this lady named. Wendy Phillips, and asked if he could. stay with her and her family. >> and still in Washington.

>> Yeah, this is just like an hour away. from his mom's place, but in Washington. So Braden told Wendy that he would been. staying with his mom, but that he quote. determined that his mom was Satan. So I. don't know if she like felt for him or. what, but Wendy and her husband Timothy. agreed to take him in. [music] And. Braden joined them and their children, James and Samantha, in Toledo, Washington. Now, our reporter Nicole. spoke with both kids, James and. Samantha, and they described Braden as.

almost like a brother to them. He would. go to their family lake days at. barbecues and when he married Alyssa, he. would bring her around too and they. adored her. Samantha and Alyssa actually. ended up becoming good friends. themselves. But when Braden came to live. with the Phillips in 2016 after his. separation, Samantha said that he seemed. to be in this like really weird. headspace. She said that Braden would. talk constantly about how much he loved. Alyssa and how heartbroken he was, but.

there seemed to be something else just. like under the surface. He would say. that the separation was God's will and. obviously something must not be right. with Alyssa because God pulled him away. from her. Samantha said it actually made. Braden an uncomfortable person to be. around. like she couldn't quite put her. finger on it, but she just got this. unsettled [music]. feeling in her gut that something was. off. >> Which brings me back to the night that. Alyssa was reported missing. So Alyssa's. family was like desperately trying to.

get a hold of Braden. They finally. reached the Phillips and [music] they're. like, "Sorry, Braden's asleep." But the. Romaines were like, "Okay, yeah, but. this is really important. Please just. tell him to like listen to the. voicemails we left him. like he'll. understand and he'll want to call us. back. >> So Wendy like she goes to get Braden who. is sleeping. She has him like listen to. the voicemail messages that Barbara and. the police officer had left. [music]. And per her account in the police file, Braden apparently showed no visible.

emotion while listening to the. voicemails. And after they finished, he. handed the phone back to one of the. Phillips and said, [music] "Thank you.". and went back to bed. what their son James said that Braden. just acted like it was any other day and. he remembers Braden saying she's. probably off on a spiritual journey. She'll pop back up. Well, guess what? She didn't. So, the Phillips managed to. convince Braden to call the police back.

the next day. This would be June 10th. But still, this is before Alyssa's body. has been found. And on this call, according to the police files, Braden. does admit to speaking with Alyssa on. June 8th, he says they spoke about what. was going on in each other's lives, about religion, specifically about this. trip that they're thinking of going on. to Florida to learn more about a certain. religious movement. They decided to. leave the decision up to Jesus. Now, according to Braden, the conversation.

was it was soft. It was sweet, loving. But interestingly, he also says in it, he admitted to Alyssa that he was having. thoughts of not being faithful, that he. was viewing pornography and he wanted to. drink and smoke and get a house and a. job, all those things that like were. pulling them apart, which were all still. things that Alyssa did not approve of. >> And does he seem concerned at this point. like to the officers or he still kind of. detached? >> It's hard to tell. Like I'm just going. off of an officer's write up of this. conversation, but it seems like Braden.

sort of dismisses the idea that Alyssa. is in danger. He says that she didn't. mention hanging out with anyone new, that she mostly kept to herself anyway, and she didn't make any indications at. all that she was going to harm herself. I mean, he said, quote, "She is probably. just at the [music] zoo." End quote. Which is weirder than a spiritual. journey. >> I mean, yeah. And like overnight, >> I guess. Yeah, cuz this is the next day. But like I don't know. Braden says that. he knows that Alyssa goes to the. riparian. He mentions the riparian every.

day, >> but she had also recently started. visiting the zoo in the mornings, I. guess. So like I don't know if he just. assumes that. >> she she went there instead and was there. like the whole time. I don't know. >> But as for his own whereabouts, Braden. tells police that he has been in. Washington with the Phillips [music]. since the end of April. >> And does he mention anything about the. separation? He doesn't. But it also. doesn't seem like they really ask him. about it. Like at this point, everything. investigators seem to know about Braden. and Alyssa's relationship history comes.

from other sources. And remember, they're talking to him at a time when. she has not been found. Like, she's just. missing. And I think they're really. focused on just like seeing if he knows. where she is. >> Yeah. >> Now, as we know, it's only hours after. this call, though, that Alyssa's body. ends up being found. And Braden's mom, her name's Jodie, she actually drives. down to the Phillips house herself to. tell Braden once she learns the news. And when she gets there, according. [music] to Wendy, who Braden's staying. with, his behavior is weird. Wendy tells.

police that Jod was trying to talk to. him, but he kept screaming at her and. telling her that she was Satan. And when. she finally was able to tell him that. Alyssa was dead, Braden says, quote, "It. [music] was prophesied that she would. die.". >> Prophesied by who? And also, why? Because I'm pretty sure 5 minutes ago. you were telling us that she was just at. the zoo. >> I don't know. Samantha, one of the. Phillips, the their daughter, she said.

that he didn't seem distraught, which. was really unsettling to [music] her. and her brother James thought that it. was downright terrifying. Though. apparently Braden does eventually break. down like screaming and wailing. So he. does have some reaction. [music] And. later that day he also starts confiding. in James. He says that he's afraid of. facing his family or going down to. Gilbert and seeing his and Alyssa's. things. He says he doesn't want to speak.

at the funeral or even see Alyssa's body. or actually go to the funeral at all. James says that they talk until James'. parents come home. And then Braden says, "I don't want you talking about anything. we talked about to your parents." But. whether James told them or not, Braden. eventually stops trusting any of [music]. the Phillips. He starts calling their. dad, Timothy, Satan. And then he stops. speaking to all of them altogether. And. the last thing he asks for is a ride to. the airport the next day, [music].

which at this point I assume the. Phillips are like happy to provide. >> Yeah. But the airport to go where. >> back to Arizona. So like Alyssa's family. had gotten him a flight so that he could. stay with them for a while. >> So they really weren't suspicious of him. at all. >> Not at this point. No. But Samantha, who. was 18 or 19 at this time, she said that. she was like the day that he left town. This would have been June 11th. She. remembers looking at her mom with this. sinking feeling in her stomach and.

saying, "Mom, [music] did Braden kill. her?" But I don't think the police were. [music] asking themselves that same. question. At least not yet. So the day. after Braden gets to Arizona, he calls. Gilbert PD asking to speak about Alyssa. [music]. >> He he calls them. >> proactively. At least that's what it. says in the case file. But when he comes. into the station for what they consider. his like first formal interview in it,

Braden does himself zero favors. Braden tells police some things that. they already know about his and Alyssa's. relationship and the separation, emphasizing, by the way though that they. had their disagreements and they were. living apart, but they were definitely. still married. [music]. And then things start to take a turn. Braden is asked what he heard happened.

to Alyssa. And this is when he begins to. describe the crime scene in vivid. detail. >> Uh which is like. >> how do you know what it looked like? >> Exactly. And he tells investigators that. he knows because he saw some video of. the crime scene on the news. >> of the crime scene. >> Well, of the investigator saying that. they found Alyssa and then he said he. saw this like overhead view from a. helicopter. and he [music] says, quote,

"It's kind of hard to see, but you can. see it if you look." End quote. [music]. And when the detectives ask if anything. stuck out to him, he said, "Just her. position.". >> Okay, but how is he seeing the crime. scene video? Like, I'm I'm confused. >> I know. This is what's like kind of. wild. According to him, it's just like. all over. Like the local news station, a. central, a family, CNN, he's saying it's. everywhere, which in the moment, I don't. think the detective could like prove him. wrong.

>> Mhm. >> So, he kind of just like pivots and he. starts down this like different line of. questioning. He wants to know Braden's. thoughts about what happened to Alyssa. And Braden says that the Lord told him. Alyssa was attacked by Satan and thrown. in the water by a demon. And I'm not. quite sure how that goes over with the. detective because there's this like. whole redaction paragraph after this. [music]. And then Braden starts asking about. Alyssa's belongings, specifically her.

bag. >> What bag? >> The investigator [music]. asks, but Braden's answer is redacted. I. don't know if she always like took a bag. with her to the Riperian or if Braden. knows more than he should because from. like what we can read in the report, there's no mention of a bag at the scene. or anywhere. But Braden is able to. describe what is inside of this. hypothetical bag. And he says he doesn't. understand if it just sank or what. happened, but he wants to know what she. was going through and what she was.

writing [music] about. The investigator. says that, you know, I can't share that. information with you. >> [music]. >> And then he steers Braden back to that. demon theory he mentioned and he asked. Braden, he's like, you know, have you. ever been possessed by a demon before? To which Braden says that he believed. demons were making him commit sins like. watching TV and drinking alcohol. And at. this point, I think the investigator. might be like getting in over his head. because he writes in the file that he. advises Braden that he is not a demon.

expert. And then he just ends the. interview. >> That's it. Well, they it doesn't actually end. He. like he tries to, but um what happens is. the investigator leaves to like get a. witness statement form for Braden to. fill out. I don't know why they're. considering him a witness or if this is. just like a generic form. >> Yeah. For like a statement form or. whatever. >> But when the investigator gets back into. the room, it becomes clear that even if. he was done asking him questions, Braden. is not done talking. >> Oh, >> and this is where things really start to. go off the rails.

>> I honestly [laughter] thought we were. already off the rails. You have no idea. where this goes. So Braden starts asking. about the injuries to Alyssa's body. He's like, "Obviously, I know there was. an investigation into what happened to. her, but like is there anything else. that there's an investigation into?". >> Uh, should there be Braden? >> Right. Like you tell me. >> Yeah. >> But Brayden's like, I don't know. Like, are you investigating a murder or are. you just like trying to find every. detail of what happened or are you.

>> can't it be both? >> Yeah. And the detective was like, "Yeah, Braden, with like all of our. investigations, we want to find out what. happened.". >> Like, we want to know what happened. Yeah. >> Yeah. But like also, I can't go into. that in detail with you. >> And that's when Braden's like, "Okay, so. you couldn't tell me if there was. anything on her body at all. like if I. called the medical police, would they. tell me what happened to her body? And. the detective is like, what do you mean? And he says, like, is there any mangling.

or strangling? Like, is there any like. bruises or like like if somebody like. punched her or at least tried to kill. her, is there any of that on her body? >> What? >> I Yeah. The detective again is like, I. can't tell you that. >> Yeah. And that it says in the case file is. when Braden giggled and like, "Yeah, I. know. I know.".

>> Okay. So, were there any signs of. strangulation, though? >> Nothing was mentioned in the unredacted. areas of the autopsy report, but there. are redactions in the file that appear. specifically in the sections that are. describing Alyssa's neck and nervous. system, which like includes her brain. and her spinal cord. But that is such a. weirdly specific thing for Braden to. ask. >> In the weirdest way possible, too. >> At that point, the detective just. straight up asked Braden if he knows. anything about what happened to Alyssa.

or anything that might assist in the. investigation. And Braden says no. But. of course, he is not done talking yet. >> Dude, go home. Get a lawyer. Stop. talking. So, he proceeds to ask the. investigator if he can be notified of. any updates instead of Alyssa's family, like specifically Alyssa's mom and dad, because he didn't want anyone to freak. out. And he kind of explains that like. he's wary of misinformation, so he wants. to know directly from the source what.

happened. And the investigator is like, "Yeah, no, you and the Roines can both. have that privilege, >> right? Not instead. How about in. addition to. >> But Braden doubles down. He's like, "Yes, these people are her family, but. like they weren't very close. >> She was living with them.". >> Yeah. And also like so is Braden at this. point when he's saying this, >> but Braden just says that he doesn't. want anyone knowing anything before him. So the investigator must like take this. opportunity to be like maybe we should. keep talking because he starts down this.

like new like different line of. questioning. He asked Braden if Alyssa. was attacked by a person rather than a. demon, what should happen to that person? [music] And Braden responds that he. thinks that person should be punished. and thrown in jail, but when they have. fully changed and repented, they should. be let out. And then the investigator. asks about the death penalty, but Braden. says that he wouldn't want that for that. person, which I can totally see being.

against his religious beliefs, right? Like that's not odd to me. >> But then he's asked, "Okay, well like. what kind of punishment would you want. for them? I have to read I know it's. like dry to read a report, but I have to. read it to you in his words because like. I don't want you thinking I'm making any. of this up." So Braden then replied, [music] "I wouldn't want that for them.". I asked Braden to clarify and Braden. replied, "I wouldn't [music] want death. for them." Right? We know death penalty. We know that. >> So this is where he says, "I asked. Braden, what would you want?" And Braden. replied, "I would want them honestly. I.

would want them to change. I would want. them to know the Lord and I would want. them to find him and for them to receive. forgiveness, but have true honest. repentance. Then there is punishment and there needs. to be change. If there's no change, then. that person should have a severe. punishment. I asked if the person. responsible should be sentenced to. prison. Braden replied, I can say. possibly. I don't know because there are. so many things that could like go. different [music] ways. Braden went on. to say, "I guess I'm judging a man by. his heart and what's in his heart. And.

if the man is turning and he's changing. and he's willing to turn and obey and. follow, Braden believed that he, the. person responsible, should be built up. slowly and gradually." Braden said he's. still in trouble. He's not off the hook. and there's punishment. But there I. think that if someone is progressing to. that there is proof then I think that. maybe a little bit more mercy. [music]. Braden went on to say if they have fully. changed I think that maybe they should. not be in jail. And at this point I'm.

reading still from the file. At this. point I advise Braden had this situation. occurred to me with my wife being killed. then I would want the person responsible. put to death. I advise Braden the two of. us have separate backgrounds which is. why we have different views. Braden. replied no honestly I feel the same way. actually what you said. I asked Braden. why he did not tell me this previously. Braden gave a deep sigh and stated I. don't know I just don't want them to be.

in trouble. >> Okay. >> I know you read this whole thing and I. was like okay okay. I feel like I'm. getting a picture of Braden and like his. thought process. And then he's like, >> you know, you make a lot of sense. >> What you said that that just go with. what you said. Write down what you said. >> At this point, the investigator says to. Braden point blank, like if you want to. tell me something like [music] now would. be the time to tell me. >> But Braden says there is nothing to.

tell. So this is when the interview. wraps up. >> again. again with the investigator. asking Braden if his DNA would be found. at the scene. Braden says nope, he was. in Washington the whole day on June 9th, which can be verified by the family he. was staying with. And he has this sort. of defensive moment where he says that. he feels like he's being accused of. something and he like needs to prove his. innocence, which like I mean what you.

needed to do is stop talking. >> Exactly. Like I don't think they were. ready to accuse him of anything when he. walked in there for sure, but they're. definitely going to start really looking. into him more now. So on June 16th, officers take a [music] trip up to. Washington. And when they talk to. Braden's mom, Jodie, she says that she. can't imagine Braden being involved in. Alyssa's death. She says that he has. never hurt anyone. And until this. happened, he's been the best son and.

brother. >> until Alyssa's death. [music]. >> No, I actually think she means more like. since he started becoming more like. extreme with his religion and like cut. the family off here. I actually have. another part of the police report I'm. going to have you read. >> He just isn't my son. Like [music] I. don't His personality used to just be so. fun and funny and light and a joy to be. around. Him and Alyssa both. They just. seem so intense. It's all about God. You.

can't have a conversation with them. without, you know, Jesus being in the. mix. So, yeah, it had gotten difficult. >> According to Jodie, Braden is the kind. of person where if you're not with him, you're against him. >> Investigators also have an interesting. conversation with [music] Timothy. Phillips, right? The dad of the family. he's staying with. He says that back. when Braden moved in with them, he kept. referring to himself as [music] the. condemned man. Timothy says that he felt.

like Braden was implying that his sins. were violent or dangerous and he thought. that Braden must have been worried about. getting a divorce from Alyssa because of. how that would affect his religious. progression. >> He also says that Braden's response to. Alyssa's death was [music] not normal. That was a quote, not normal. But the. most important conversation. investigators have is with Wendy, who. indeed confirms that Braden was at her. house every day of the week that Alyssa.

went missing, and that she saw him. physically each day up until she drove. him to the airport on the 11th. >> I mean, you're kidding me. No, like he. has a rock solid alibi, >> but it doesn't mean he still wasn't. involved, which is why they keep. digging. And luckily for investigators, Wendy hands over something that could. help them test this theory, right? Like, was he maybe involved but not like.

physically responsible? She gives them the devices that Braden. had been using while he was staying. [music] with them, including a phone and. a tablet. >> And he didn't take those with him to. Arizona. >> No, because they weren't his. Remember, Braden and Alyssa shared a phone. And so. when Braden left for Washington, Alyssa. kept that [music] phone. So while he was. staying with the Phillips family, he was. borrowing their son's devices. That's. how he would communicate with Alyssa.

and their son James told police that. Braden used his tablet constantly. So when the forensic analysis comes. [music] back a month later on these. devices, that's what investigators. expect to see, right? like all these. communications constant use. >> But there's a little problem or if. you're Braden, there is a big [music]. problem because it turns out Braden had. deleted almost all traces of his. activity on the phone and tablet. And.

according to Wendy, the day he left, Braden did the same thing with his Xbox. Live account. She tells police, quote, "It's like he was never [music] there.". 3 months after these data records come. back, investigators feel like they're. ready to talk to Braden again, to lay. out everything that they've learned. since their first discussion and see.

what he has to say. [music] And if you. didn't pick up on this from Braden's. first interview, he's going to have a. lot to say. >> Yeah. This time around, they go to him. because he's back in Washington at this. [music] point. And they start off with. an open-ended question. What do you know. about Alyssa's death? And Braden. answers, I don't know [music] anything. I know that she went to the Riperian. Preserve. I don't know how she died. I. literally don't know what happened. Is. what he said. >> Okay. I thought he knew all about the.

crime scene. >> That So that is exactly what they bring. it back to. They're like, "Hey, so. remember how you said you knew about the. crime scene because you saw it on TV?". So, weird thing, we can't find news. coverage of it. We even asked your mom. last time that we were in Washington if. like the media up there was showing. [music] something like maybe they showed. something we can't find here in Arizona. She said no. >> At one point, she even said information. regarding Alyssa's death was. non-existent in [music] the media. But.

Braden doubles down and he starts. describing the footage in even more. detail. I mean, like he literally draws. a map for investigators with details. down to where the bathrooms and the. benches were in the preserve. He says. that he watched a clip on a family of a. helicopter flying over a pond and he saw. this hourglass figure that quote looked. like my wife. But police are like dude. again where because we cannot find this. thing. So Braden like is like, "Okay,

whatever." He like whips out his phone. like, "Here, I'll show you." But all of. a sudden, Braden can't seem to find it. either. And now he sort of tries to like. walk the whole thing back. Like he says. like, "Well, I thought I saw a body, but. maybe I what I saw was like a bush.". >> Okay. He just said he saw an hourglass. figure that looked like his wife. >> I know. And at this point, investigators. are like, "Straight up, listen, we're. having trouble ruling you out as a. suspect. And [music]. this is the moment where I would say, if.

this were me, I didn't do this. I am. innocent. Braden chooses to go with, "Well, there's no evidence or anything.". >> No, not [laughter] not the right answer. >> The detective is like, "How do you know. there's no evidence?" [music] And Braden. says, "Well, you know, obviously there. isn't." And so the detective asks again, like, "But how do you know that?" And. that's when Braden has to admit he. doesn't know [music] that. And at this. point, I can only imagine that things. are like feeling tense. So Braden takes.

the opportunity to reiterate what should. be his rocksolid alibi. He was in. Washington. He didn't have his own. devices or any money or even a car. I. mean, but he was still using devices and. they were basically all wiped. >> Yeah. Braden says that that, by the way, was because he was watching porn and. sports and didn't want the Phillips to. think badly of him. But like, by the way, he also deleted. his communication, so like that doesn't.

totally add up for me. And listen, there. are a whole lot of redactions in the. file at this point. >> I mean, I can't even imagine what more. he could have said. >> I don't know. But the next thing that I. can see is the point where the. investigator starts walking through some. theories. One is that this was a murder. Two is. that someone was trying to help Alyssa. rid herself of demons. went too far and. this was an accident. And Brighton's. like, "Yep, that second one." But he.

says he doesn't think that it was an. accident because quote, "Demons wanted. to kill Alyssa." And then, as if things. couldn't get any worse, Braden like sort. of goes off on this rant about how he is. this like wretch and evil man because of. the things that he has done. He says. that he's hurt people. He's lied to them. about who he is. >> Hurt who? I don't know. And the. detective actually asks a different. question. That would have been my. question. He wants Braden to tell him.

the worst thing he's ever done to a. person. So maybe kind of the same. question. And Braden has an answer. He. tells this story [music]. about this one time that he and Alyssa. were in California together ministering. at a woman's house. And Alyssa was like. praying to God to rebuke the demons. inside of him. but she wouldn't stop. when he asked her to. So Braden. threatened her to be quiet with a knife. So now the detective asks if maybe that.

same thing happened at the preserve and. Braden says. the devil. Yeah, he manifested. I wasn't. physically there but he manifested. And then of course as soon as it feels. like we are on the brink of something, redactions, pages of them. When I can. read again, all I can see is that Braden. refused to take a computer voice stress.

analysis because the Lord told him not. to. And that must be good enough for. detectives because that is the last time. that they speak to Braden. >> You're kidding me. No. Now, granted, I've told you there are a lot of. redactions in the file, >> but this is the last interview with him. that I can see, >> and I think that is because they could. never put him in Arizona or connect him.

to someone who was there. >> Okay. But like, how do you explain him. drawing a map of the crime scene? >> Our team actually got to the bottom of. that. [music]. So, that video that Braden was talking. about, this aerial footage over the. riparian showing the discovery of. Alyssa's body, Alyssa's sister Michelle. says she saw it, too. She said that it. was on the evening news a day or two. after Alyssa was found, and it was clear.

enough for her to observe something. white in the water, which [music]. she also thought was Alyssa's body. because she was like naturally very. pale. >> Okay. So, how come the officer couldn't. seem to find it? >> Well, that's because by the time the. officer was searching for it, [music] I. don't think there was anything there to. find. It seemed like it had been taken. down. And we even dug into this a little. deeper with the help of our breaking. news reporter, Brianna Whitney. >> She worked for a family. >> Literally, she came here from a family.

And that's the station that Braden. specifically referenced in this police. interview. and she said that like as a. matter of policy there, the station. would not post any footage showing a. body or human remains of any kind, >> which makes sense. >> Yeah. Now, Brianna wasn't with the. station at this time, but she said. what's very likely is that if there was. breaking news, like a breaking news. broadcast that showed something that the. newsroom later realized might depict a. body, it would immediately be scrubbed. from their channels. >> Which tells me that Braden was likely.

telling the truth in his interview with. police. [music] And I know that he drew. a map, but like Braden had been to the. Riperian over a dozen times before this, like which he did actually relay to. investigators. Now, Michelle and the. rest of the Roine family back up Braden. in other ways, too. [music] Yes, the. stuff he was saying was offthe-wall, >> but they said he had no motive because. even though he and Alyssa were. separated, everyone in their lives said.

that the two were not even close to. heading for divorce. They just wanted a. little bit of space for like a hot. minute. No one ever witnessed any. arguing. They were still talking on the. phone for hours a day, even during the. separation. And they had plans to go to. that like Bible conference a week or two. after Alyssa died. And what's more, according to Chelsea, the only reason. that Braden even went back to Washington. rather than stay in Arizona during this. little time apart was because his. grandfather had passed away. Otherwise,

she said he probably would have just. stayed local. So, this motive [music]. not really as solid as it seemed. >> And if there's no motive, then you can. rule out like any sort of like hitman. theory, right? >> Listen, I can't say anything for. certain. And for what it's worth, the. Phillips family, who hosted Braden after. the separation, said the thought has. always lingered with them that Braden. knows what happened to Alyssa. They. still see him around in Washington. sometimes like at church or the grocery. store, but none of them have spoken to.

him since he got on that airplane to. Arizona back in 2016. [music]. They actually left a church service and. went home after seeing him because they. like didn't even want to deal. But like. I mean play this theory out, right? So. like we know Braden didn't have a job. He and Alyssa survived off donations. >> I mean the Roines literally had to pay. for his travel to Arizona. So, if this. was a hit for higher situation, >> how is he paying for it? >> With what money exactly? And listen, maybe he had like a friend in Arizona.

who would have helped him free of. charge. Or maybe we're trying [music] to. connect dots that don't connect because. Braden had nothing to do with this. Either way, there is no explicit [music]. explanation as to why Braden's name sort. of just fades from reports. And I. actually can't say for certain that the. police have cleared him. Now, I know. that James said they still have his cell. phone, laptop, and tablet, like all the. ones that Braden was using, but it's.

hard to say if the police are actually. doing anything with them or if they're. just holding on to them. >> And I'm assuming we tried reaching. Braden for comment, >> of course, but as of this recording, we. haven't gotten a response. Alyssa's. sister Michelle told us it felt like. investigators took one look at Alyssa. and Braden's lifestyle, heard about. their religious beliefs, and instantly. wrote them off as religious lunatics. And from that point on, she believes the. investigation was driven by a simple. assumption. Either Alyssa did this to.

herself or Braden did it to her. [music]. And they were going to figure out how to. put the pieces together to fit that. story. But guess what? It's over 10. years later and this case is just in. undetermined purgatory. [music] And the. more that we investigated, the easier it. became to see Braden not as somebody who. killed his beloved wife, but rather. somebody who was distraught, overwhelmed, and in desperate need of a.

lawyer. Because when you remove him from. the equation, there are some other very. viable leads that have been haunting not. only me but Alyssa's family, too. [music] And when you hear them, I think. you'll understand why. Because girl, even through the redactions, what we. found is shocking. And this case takes. some wild turns involving a family. stalker, an ex-boyfriend, two [music].

strangers who knew things they shouldn't. have, and Alyssa's ties to a. controversial religious movement, which. many online have likened to a [music]. cult. But that's on next week's episode. Or if. you are in the Crime Junkie [music] fan. club, you can listen to part two right. now adree. Crime Junkie is an audiochuck. production. I think Chuck would approve.