The Great Debate: Israel v Palestine | Candace Ep 10

All right, guys. Welcome to another. episode. This is going to be a really. great discussion between Ami Horowitz. and Dave Smith. I'm excited just to have. two Jewish comedians on because I will. tell you one thing that has been lost in. this Israel versus Palestine issue, Jewish humor. People used to be so. funny. Jewish people used to be so. funny. They could take a joke. It was. one thing we had in common, the blacks. and the Jews. But now all that's gone. because people are way too serious. Well, I'm very glad that these two. guests will be able to have what I hope. to be a meaningful discussion. And if.

anything, what I want you to take away. is that speech matters. More speech, not. less. That's what we have coming up on. Candace. All right, guys. I promised you we were. going to have such a great discussion. today. I'm very much looking forward to. it because I've already had a discussion. with these two individuals and they were.

actually productive on this topic and. there has been a lot of nonsense and a. lot of emotion, but I think that these. two individuals are going to have a good. discussion. I think it's also important. to say because you hear people say, "Oh, I'm moderating the discussion. I don't. have an opinion." You guys already know. my opinion. You guys know that I've had. Dave Smith on and that I agree with him. on foreign policy. So to keep this. discussion productive, I'm just going to. be as quiet as possible. Not an easy. task for me. Not an easy task at all. What I don't want I want to make sure. that we're not accidentally tipping the.

scales and occasionally I'm just going. to say bad and mean stuff to Dave Smith. just to make it make it easy. All right, guys. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Candace. Thank you. Thank you and congratulations. on the success of the new show. It's. awesome to see. Whoop whoop. You can't cancel Candace. So Ami, I do want to start with you. because you and I had an offline. discussion about really how not. productive my discussion was with other. people that I had on the show that I was. not intending to. People were were upset. with me thinking that I had sort of. intentionally had on like a rabid.

pro-Israel voice. I'm going after Rabbi. Shmuley and most people agree left and. right that he's a, you know, an. interesting person, so to speak. And the. truth was I was really only having Rabbi. Boteach on because he had personally. written an article about me, not because. I think that he's the most logical. pro-Israel voice or that he gets it. right all the time. I don't think he. does. So I I do want to offer you an. opportunity right here at the beginning. We're seeing right now the media sort of. saying that any critique of Israel as a. foreign nation kind of registers as a.

critique of all Jews across the world, which makes it easy to call people. anti-Semitic if they disagree with Bibi. Netanyahu. So I just want to hear your. take on that. Sure, yes. Thank you. I think that. there's always a better way I maintain. when there's disagreements to lend. themselves to conversations and coming. in good faith and understanding your. opponent's positions actually and. actually what they've said before coming. into any conversation. So there's. conversations you've had since our. conversation that I want to clear up, but also with regard to with regard to.

criticism, the idea that it's not that any. criticism of Israel is being. is being labeled as anti-Semitic, but. the point is that there's a lot of. disproportionate criticism, the. signaling out, the double standard that. Israel's being subjected to. That is. grounds for that, I do believe, and I. think that there is a catch-22 that. happens in the anti-Semitism game where. someone can make an incendiary comment, an anti-Semitic remark, and then the. Jewish community calls it out and they.

say, "Well, you see, Jews are trying to. control me. You see, they're trying to. control the speech." And so it almost. becomes an impossible task to combat. effectively. And I said this in our last. conversation that to call things that. are not anti-Semitic anti-Semitic is. incredibly unproductive and wrong and it. it's almost like a cry wolf scenario, but when we do see things that are. anti-Semitic and we call it out or. problematic comments that embolden. anti-Semitism, a catch-22 forms where. I've seen it all over Twitter, too, where people say disgusting things about. Jews. They couch it sometimes in. criticism of Israel and no one can deny.

that there's a lot of anti-Semites that. disguise them themselves in anti-Zionist. rhetoric and they say these things and. then when the Jewish community calls it. out cuz they say these Jews are trying. to control our narrative, control our. speech. Then we call it out, they say, "You see, you see, you see." And then. proceed to double down. And it just. continues to spiral. So it leaves the. voices who want to speak out. productively and constructively about. this fairly stuck. And in a world. post-October 7th, when we see a rise of. anti-Semitic incidences simply because. Israel is in a war and then you see.

thousands of people, mobs of crowds in. the street cheering Intifada Revolution, Al-Qassam, here are your next targets, protesting at the Nova exhibit where. Jews were slaughtered on October 7th. I. was there 2 hours before that with a. cohort of comedians visiting. When. you're seeing these things and then you. see a rise of anti-Semitism, I think rhetoric that contributes to. that, we need to be able to, you know, open our ears and eyes to like. understand that. being aware of these things and calling. it out is not trying to control or. censor and it there it is a real thing.

even though in the past it may have been. an exaggeration. What do you think, Dave? Um. well, I I guess I I agree to some. extent. I mean, I think that there's. there's certainly like I see a lot of. Jew-hating stuff on Twitter. Um and I do. think that you when you're Jewish you. kind of can't you can't win. Like you. make a fair point there. It's like, you. know, I've heard there was one thing. that I got tagged in where it was like, you know, like a whole list of like.

political commentators with the star of. Jew of David, you know, behind it. And it was like. first off, they just got a bunch wrong. Like a bunch of people who just aren't. Jewish were put on there. But then they. had like me and Glenn Greenwald and Max. Blumenthal and like a bunch of other. people and you're like, "Yeah, but we're. all like the sharpest critics of. Israel." And they're like, "Yeah, but. you see, that's the Jewish game." It's. like you control both sides of the So it. just becomes this thing where it's like, "Oh, okay. So if I was pro-Israel, that's proof that there's a Jewish. conspiracy. If I'm critical of Israel,

that's also proof that there's a Jewish. conspiracy." So. my feeling on that is just kind of it's. a it's a losing game and I find it. stupid and I just yeah. I mean, I. totally don't like seeing that stuff. Um. I do think that the difference is that. these are kind of for the most part. random Twitter comments and it's hard to. know what's really going on there. Is. this somebody trolling? Is this some Is. this. a 15-year-old? I mean, I like I have no. idea what it really is behind that.

Whereas when it comes to actual. people who are known, who are are making. these arguments, I don't. I just don't see. almost anybody. I mean, I don't know, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe. there's someone I'm not thinking of, but. I see people like Candace who from. everything I've seen bends over backward. to be like, "Hey, I am not talking about. Jews here. I have nothing but love for. Jewish people. I've grown up around.

Jewish people." I see That's what I see. for the most part that people that then. still just get called. anti-Semitic. And so, you know, I I do. where I would probably disagree a little. bit is that I think the idea that if you. are critical I mean, look, Douglas. Murray just had a a debate at the Munk. Debate the other day. His argument is. that being anti-Zionist is being. anti-Semitic. And it's it's remarkable. to watch people like Douglas Murray. just become woke leftists when they talk. Well, anti-Semitism is a shape-shifting.

virus and if you say anything critical. of Israel now, you now own the entire. history of hating Jewish people or. something like that. The truth is that. there there definitely is more criticism. of Israel than there are of other uh. other governments, other countries. Far worse governments, too, I would say. Yeah, but there's also. perhaps there's also a lot of reasons. why that's the case other than the fact. that it's a Jewish state. And we could.

get into what all of those are, but you. could talk about worse governments. Um. there is something very unique about the. relationship between the United States. of America and Israel as it pertains to. our foreign policy, over particularly. over the last 20 years, which has been. catastrophic for not just our nation, but every nation involved. Um there's. also something different about a war, which I hesitate to even use the word at. times because I'm not sure that's the. correct word for what we've seen over.

the last 8 months. There's I don't know. if I can think of another example around. the world, again, correct me if I'm. wrong, where a captive. permanently stateless refugee group of. people are just being just mass. slaughtered. A group of people who do. not have a military of their own, do not. have a government of their own, are. completely captive and have been ruled. by Israel since 1967. That's also unique. And so I think. there's a lot at work here. I'm not.

going to argue that people hating Jews. is not an element at all amongst anyone, but at the same time it's like if you, you know, if you are for border. restrictions, you might attract some. people who don't much like Mexicans. And. if you are for DEI, you're going to. attract some people who don't much like. white people. And if you're critical of. Israel, you also probably will attract. some people who don't like Jews. All of. this to me is kind of irrelevant to the. real question, which is.

what Israel is doing to Gaza over the. last 8 months and whether or not this is. acceptable and whether or not we should. be funding and arming this conflict. That's a great great question and I. would love to hear Ami's response to it. You know, when you and I first spoke, Ami, it was only a few weeks I think. after October 7th and I think that we. had a a really great discussion. Somehow. I was still called anti-Semitic after it. and I was going, "I thought that was. such a productive discussion. I learned. so much and I thought it was good and. healthy for people to hear the. conversation as well. too, but fair. enough. I Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they just.

sort of like I thought it did it did. both of us a disservice. I was I was. very proud of the discussion because I. was coming from it in very good faith. and I know that you were as well. And so. I think that much has changed I think. people were floating around was this a. genocide not I don't think that matters. we don't need to get hung up on the. verbiage. Do you believe that the. response to the October 7th attacks has. been equal overboard and also what would. you say is an equal or an overboard.

response? Well first of all Dave I know I'll just. say I know you wanted to be Douglas. Murray but here you have him it's the. next best thing okay. Everything Dave. said is utter nonsense from the front of. the get go people of your ilk. But. anyway. you know this is what happens when you. get two comedians on to talk seriously. as well. Yeah for you maybe. Anyway um. I'm a huge Douglas Murray fan and I. think he did an awesome job. But for the. record I'll just say this. a couple of things just to what Dave. said and then I'll address your question. Candace because I think Dave would you. concede that this you know you don't.

like the word war I don't like the word. conflict because I think there's a. fundamental flaw in presuming that. Israel and its enemies. are and I'm using these words carefully. moral equals in the sense in terms of. the values that Israel tries to uphold. the state it tries to create which. confuses me about your position in the. sense that you're someone who's always. fighting for individual rights and. sovereignty and that these governments. the whole purpose of government in and. of itself is to. is to protect those rights to the best. of its ability. That's what its primary.

function is and to the extent to the. degree to which Israel does that better. than any other area in the region I. would think that at least morally. sympathetically. your your solidarity or whatever you. want to call it your advocacy your. opinion on this would lie more so with. what Israel has to go through because. it's fighting regimes that do not share. any of those values at all any of our. values that are here today in terms of. tolerance individual rights these kinds. of things that Israel. although it's imperfect is a Western. democracy so it always shocks me when I.

see. when I see people who are principled in. your position not see that or side with. that and I know you you you haven't. fully condemned Israel fully but like. and I've seen other interviews where you. do defend what Israel's you know the. virtues of Israel but at the same time. it I always find that very surprising. because the values that you uphold and. say are fighting for on behalf of the. Palestinians it doesn't seem to me that. their regimes that represent them and a. lot of people in those populations don't. uphold those values themselves or those. desires themselves. So seeing it through. a Western American lens you know there's.

a hierarchy of values here and it seems. that the real motivating factor in this. war is it's not a geographical or. political dispute or a conflict that. presumes two sides are fighting as moral. equals but rather an ideological one in. which. Israel is fighting regimes that are. genocidal that wish to see its. destruction because it's a Jewish state. because of not just the not just it is a. Jewish state but Jews worldwide and. they've been very explicit about that. So it confuses me that we impose this. idea that everybody just wants the same.

thing and we have to just work this out. you know as a geographical dispute with. all of that messy history. What's always. seemed to me been animating this before. any occupation of any territory even. existed was a deep-seated hatred for. Jews the Jewish people and the Jewish. state. So even if people critical of. Israel aren't anti-Jewish the people. Israel's directly fighting certainly. are. Um Um okay that's that is interesting. So I only want to say that because I I. did have and I'm interjecting here I did. have a conversation with someone who. whose parents were forced out in I want.

to say 1945 is that the correct year? 48 And it definitely I don't think every. person that has an issue with Israel is. being guided necessarily by this idea. that it's just Jewish people. I mean. some of these people were actually. living there and had accepted Jewish. refugees into their home. One. Palestinian is coming to mind Mohamed. Hadid who. they were allowing these refugees to. live there for 2 years they went out one.

day came back and the the locks were. changed and they said this is again I'm. telling you what Mohamed Hadid told me. you're not allowed to come back here. your home is being taken over if you. come back they will shoot you and kill. you. So I think some people are being. motivated by the what they perceive to. be the historical injustice. Do you. think that that's a fair assessment to. say that some people aren't just looking. at this as these are the Jews they're. looking at this as these are people who. took our our homeland and it's not fair. Uh Or do you think it has changed over. the years? I think what's always fundamentally not.

like there are marginal issues and there. are fundamental issues and I'm not. denying that innocent Palestinians. suffered as a result of all this and I. think you know you could play a. suffering Olympics all day long and keep. going back and keep playing this game. all day over who you know atrocities. that have been committed across the. board throughout history. That's not. unique to the foundations and formings. of any state but I think that um um. as far as what's what's fundamental here. is not that there's this thirst and. desire to create a Palestinian state but. rather to destroy the Jewish one.

Dave Um okay let me let me address the a. bunch of that stuff. So I I think. look. when you say okay so like I'm a. libertarian and I believe in in freedom. and government should if it exists at. all only be there to protect property. and and. natural rights. So. look if. you were to say like let's compare. the United States of America to Saddam.

Hussein's Iraq. which society would I rather live in? Which society do I think is more moral? Which government you know was less. oppressive? Okay obviously the answer is. the United States of America. But or at. least to its own people. We're probably a lot more oppressive to. other countries but. but that's totally irrelevant to whether. I'd have solidarity with George W. Bush. and Dick Cheney. The question is who's. right in this conflict? Were you. justified in invading and destroying and.

killing a million people there? And the. answer is no. And so it doesn't matter. like that it's just totally irrelevant. to the conflict. Now it's not irrelevant. to how you feel about the country as a. whole but if you're talking about the. war in Iraq I'm not going to go like. well you know. you know George W. Bush is not as brutal. as Saddam Hussein therefore I have some. solidarity with him. It's like no he's. destroying a nation of people has no. right to do this and by the way he's. also greatly degrading my country. Now. as far as the rest of your.

characterization of. Israel I just I think it's totally. unfair and not in line with the history. and it's kind of circular reasoning. Like you're like well but don't you. you know Israel's the good guy so how. come you don't support the good guy? Wouldn't you be more sympathetic to them. cuz they're the good guy? It's like well. no but that's look Israel is not a. Western democracy. They're just not and. they don't get to play this card. anymore. Israel took control of the West. Bank and Gaza in 1967.

They didn't they they haven't occupied. them for a few months after a war or. even a few years after the war. They've. occupied them for nearly 60 years for. longer than the Soviet Union occupied. all of Eastern Europe. And none of the. people in those in those territories. have any voting rights whatsoever. So. how can you call yourself a democracy? By the way I don't I don't even I'm not. that into democracy. I understand. I. don't really care about voting rights. I'm my beef is that they have no natural.

rights whatsoever. But you don't get to. just hold 5 million people captive for. nearly 60 years with no voting rights. and claim to be a democracy. That's an. apartheid regime. And so I don't listen. the the fact is and many just to your. other point cuz there were a few there. Many. Israelis at the highest level of. government have admitted this for many. many years from Moshe Dayan to. to Barack. all all up and down bunch of former.

prime ministers admitted. It was Ehud. Barak who said if I was a young. Palestinian I'd be a terrorist too. And. they all and it's not because they are. just. all possessed by evil and and Jew. hatred. The truth is that the creation. of Israel however you feel about it. involved three quarters of a million. Palestinians. being kicked off of their land. And then. after 1967 they've been occupied by a.

foreign military ever since. It is the. most human thing in the world that you. would develop hatred for the people who. did that to you. There is no group of. people anywhere including the three of. us who would not develop a burning. hatred for the foreign military that is. policing your streets. kidnapping your people whenever they. feel like it killing your people with. zero consequences. I mean you know. imagine the the you know this this. government look the Likud party Benjamin.

Netanyahu's party. which is he is the longest serving prime. minister in the history of Israel was. was founded by who? Menachem Begin a literal terrorist. That's what Israel did with their. terrorists. They elected them prime. minister. Who wouldn't how could you. possibly live in Gaza or the West Bank. and not hate Israel? Okay. I can I. respond? Sure. Yeah. Oh yeah of course. So there's a lot there. I mean I. appreciate we're letting each other go. for a little while cuz I I appreciate. your perspective but you you mentioned.

the word invasion and if we bring it to. here and now and we talk about what. happened on October 7th cuz we are. talking about this current military. campaign just to just to kind of hone in. on specific points in history for me cuz. we can deliberate all of the history. that you mentioned and alluded to and it. can take up 3 hours. But if we're just. talking about here and now right now and. trying to solve these problems on. October 7th who invaded who? And did. they invade occupied territory or did. they invade sovereign kibbutzim of. individuals and deliberately target. their civilians because they were Jews?

Let's remember the terrorist that called. his parents on October 7th and they have. an audio recording of it saying. "Mommy, Mommy, Daddy, Daddy." He didn't. say I got our house back. I got our. property back. Guess what? I liberated. Palestine. He said "Mom, Dad, I killed. 10 Jews with my bare hands." And they. scream in pride and elation. They did. they took Israeli babies that are still. being held hostage today. The reason. they're doing it cuz it's they're. animated by Jew hatred and I think to be. naive to that is incredibly dangerous. and it's it it misses the entire.

motivation behind what Israel's facing. This. occupation of these places that you. mentioned first of all, Israel leaving Gaza in 2005, 2006, leaving it to every every effort in in. other words for Israel to uh give land. back and minimize what you call the. occupation, which I think is a false. term and we can talk about that cuz. occupation refers to uh one sovereign. nation illegally occupying an existing. sovereign nation, of which there was no. such thing when it came to Palestine. I.

know the geography was called Palestine. and I say that just as a point of. preference to say that a lot of the. language in this conversation is. deceptive. It's not just a. propagandistic talking point, but I. think saying terms like that gives. people this false narrative impression. that a sovereign state of Palestine that. was independent and had its own. leadership and its own uh its own. independence was usurped by Israel in. what you alluded to today, leaving out. what actually happened in the formation. of Israel in that the refugee crisis was. largely caused by the fact that a lot of. the Arab nations did not want the.

creation of a Jewish state and sought to. destroy it upon its formation. And so we. can't just start the story in the. middle. So fundamentally, you can say. it's the occupation that's leading to. all this terrorism and I know you're not. excusing the actions of the terrorists. that some people have tried to throw. your way. I'm not going to I'm not. saying you're saying that, but you're. saying that there's a context here. And. I would say yeah, it didn't start on. October 7th, but it didn't start in '67. or '48 either. There were massacres of. Jews in the '20s in Hebron. There were. massacres and tensions between these two. people and hatred going on. in the Islamic world going back to the.

beginning. If you go to protests today. and you hear chants in Arabic, they're. not saying two states side by side, liberation for the West Bank for a free. state of Palestine alongside Israel. They're saying "Khaibar, Khaibar, ya. Yahud." And what is that reference to? Khaibar, Khaibar, ya Yahud? The Battle. of Khaibar in which Muhammad came across. the Jews and he gave them a choice. Convert to Islam or submit and become. dimmies and second-class citizens. And. this is what's animated the entire. region and the expulsion of Jews. throughout all of the Arab countries in. the Arab world. And so the the need for.

a sense of Jewish safety in the region I. think is super important and not to be. discounted. And my fundamental point is. that I do not think it's occupation that. leads to terrorism. It's terrorism that. leads to occupation. In other words, the. only reason these things perpetuate is. because Israel is continually attacked. And if you want the solution to stop, you have to have goodwill on the. Palestinian side to commit to not. wanting to kill the Jews in Israel and. attack them. And I think leaving Gaza in. 2005 was a perfect example of that. What. did happen? We you know, I know you've.

heard these points before, Dave, that. greenhouses and infrastructure were left. there. Hamas takes over, kills their. political opponents, fellow Muslims, Fatah, and establishes a terrorist. statelet using all the international aid. and funding to fire rockets and attack. at Israel. Invade Israel on October 7th, breaking a ceasefire. So accountability. I'm not denying suffering of what you're. talking about for local populations, but. who's accountable for that? And at a. certain point you can't say Israel is. Okay, so thank you so much and I want to. ask a question back to you, Amie. Dave, I know you're going to have a lot to. respond to with that, but again, I am I.

want to be very clear. of the three of us, I know the least. about the history, which is why I think. it's important to let you two talk. Amie, just I want I do keep hearing this. point over and over again that, you. know, it wasn't a state, meaning you. know, this was just some territory, but. people lived here and my family is Saint. Thomian and I just think, you know, they've lived in. generations upon generations in Saint. Thomas. It's not officially a state, it's a US territory. So is your thought. process, I guess we're talking about. Puerto Rico or we're talking about Saint. Thomas, that if the US wanted to right.

now, they could say "Hey, we're giving. Saint Thomas to Jewish people in Israel. Give up your houses. We're not going to. give you any money. Get out or you'll. get shot.". And then your your thought process is. "Hey, listen. You're not a nation. Like. you're you're not a nation. It's like. this you I know you've been living here. for a long time." Could you clarify that. cuz I don't want to misrepresent you. saying that and I'm not saying. there I think the whole essence of. creating Israel in a 1947 partition plan. was that there were native peoples.

living there, Jewish and Arab alike, and. no one disputes that native people lived. there. I'm simply dispelling a false. narrative and I think a lot of people. fall into that who aren't informed on. this issue when you talk to people that. there was this prosperous, free, independent state of Palestine with its. own sovereignty uh with not in the. context of under a British mandate and. previously under an Ottoman Empire and. at a time when the whole region was. being carved up by the Western powers. and figuring out what to do with the. native peoples where there was tension. I'm not disputing that they were.

present, but I'm just. I'm saying it to be very precise in. getting the history right because I. think it's often misrepresented and I I. I don't know what Dave feels about that, but I'm I'm being very particular and. narrow in in specifying that because I. think a lot of this conversation about. this topic is so co-opted by false words. and language that's very confusing and. deceptive. But you would agree that telling people. that have purchased a home and are. living there irrespective of the. politics that they have to get out. without even giving them money. Cuz I I. actually was very surprised Lauren they.

didn't get anything in return. I thought. maybe they wrote them a check and were. like get out. We would I think we would. all principally agree that that that. first thing is wrong morally. Do you. agree with that or not really? Yeah, I. can I can understand that position, but. I'm just saying at the time the reason. there's a. the for a refugee crisis and we can. debate the history and a the accounts of. this is that in if you do if you accept. that there's also a Jewish legitimate. claim to the ancestral homeland in. Israel and a priority to create a Jewish.

safe haven for Jews given what had. happened to Jews historically in Nazi. Germany and the Arab world, not at the. expense of local populations and to. displace them. The reason they were. displaced is because of a refusal to. accept a Jewish state and Jewish. sovereignty and what followed were. attack after attack after attack from. the surrounding Arab nations with the. aim of destroying the Jewish state, not. with the aim of creating free Palestine. Okay, thank you so much for clarifying. that and I want to let you Dave now. reply. I know sorry, he said a lot and. then I just wanted to I cuz I'm also I'm.

learning with you guys. So I'm kind of. going to ask questions. Yeah, well well look, I mean as far as. the idea that the there wasn't a. Palestinian state, I just I do find this. to just be one of the weakest arguments. I mean, human beings have natural. rights. This is the. foundation of Western civilization is. that your rights are not derived from. whether or not you have a government and. that people were there. People were. living in those homes. They had. homesteaded the area. They had they had. property rights. They had natural rights. and they were violently evicted from the. place that they had been living for.

hundreds of years if not thousands of. years. And that that's wrong. And this. is there there's really no dispute here. because even if some of them just fled, which which is true. Some of them fled. Some of them were violently evicted. Some of them fled because they saw how. violently evicted others were, but they. weren't allowed to return and Israel had. no right to do that. But Dave, do you do. you agree that there didn't exist I I. just I just to get clarification. Do you. agree that there didn't exist a. sovereign state of Palestine in the way. we recognize countries today? Yeah, but. that's that's not even a debatable.

point. Yes, that's true. It didn't. exist. It didn't exist. I think a lot of people do think that. But I'm saying I think it's completely. irrelevant. But yes, it's it's true that. there wasn't a sovereign government. known as Palestine. They were ruled by. the British under the League of Nations. mandate and then before that for 400. years or so they were ruled by by the. Ottoman Empire. Um. all of that is irrelevant to me and. especially in the United States of. America. It's just kind of, you know, like this was like the Putin logic that. he opened his Tucker Carlson show with.

or something about, you know, like who. has historic claim over these different. territories. I I guess the British have. historic claim over us, but we don't. care cuz we wrote the Declaration of. Independence and said screw you. We're. not doing that anymore. We have rights. God gave them to us. Um but but there's. a bunch of stuff here that I want to. talk about. So. again, the question isn't whether they. had a state or not. The question is that. Israel has been militarily occupying. these people. Now, in 1947 when the UN. had their partition recommendation, they.

made a recommendation. The General. Assembly had no authority whatsoever to. just go around carving up countries and. deciding whose territory was what. They. made a recommendation and then the. Zionist settlers decided to to violently. enforce that. Now, obviously a lot of. people a lot the Palestinians rejected. it and for very legitimate reasons. In. hindsight, maybe it would have been. better if they accepted that. Maybe not. However, they were they were granted 54% of the. land in this recommendation.

After the war in 1948, they took 78% of. the land. After the war in 1967, they took 100% of. it. What every single. peace proposal has been based around. going all the way back to the first Camp. David through the Oslo Accords through. Camp David in 2000 to every time there's. been a serious negotiation about a. two-state solution, it's always been. that last 22%.

You're talking about Gaza and the West. Bank. No one. Aside from what some dumb college. student might be hollering or what. someone on Twitter might say, there has. never been a serious conversation about. from the river to the sea. About the. Palestinians actually got. the right of. return stuff is always whittled down to. like a very small number of Palestinians. who could maybe come back to where they. used to live. But we're talking about. the final 22% that Israel has absolutely. no claim to. No claim.

That's what Hamas and and Mahmoud Abbas. believe. Uh from the river to the sea. That's what That's what they're. fighting. Okay. Okay. to want a clarification. Uh. Okay. One second. Hamas has actually in. the past agreed said they would they. recognize Israel under 1967 borders. That may not be what they're saying. right now at the moment, but just to be. clear, they have said that before. I'm. not again, I'm not just talking about. the dreams of some terrorist group that. can never come true. You know, Osama bin. Laden also wanted worldwide Sharia law. That wasn't probably going to happen.

though, okay? So, anyway, this is what's. been going on in every single uh. negotiation. The entire global. community, including every single United. States president of my lifetime, knows that Israel has no claim to that. last 22%. It is not theirs. It's not. theirs to give. It ought not be their. decision whether the Palestinians get a. state or not. It's not their territory. That's why they they're the occupying. force. Now, I just want to mention. because this is something that I know um.

the the pro-Israel side always loves to. brag about that what well, we disengaged. with Gaza in 2005. Um what a little. interesting note about that that never. very rarely comes up is that Benjamin. Netanyahu resigned over the. disengagement. Uh this was in Sharon's. government and he resigned over it. because he was so against it. So, by the. way, the guy who's in there now, the. longest-serving prime minister in Israel. is Israeli history, resigned over this. disengagement. it worked out so well, Dave, in the in. the long run to disengage?

No, he he resigned when they did it. Yeah, he was No, he was against doing. it. Right. And how did it work out to. disengage from Gaza for Israel's. security? Why do you think they did it? What's. that? Why did they do it? Why did they. disengage from Gaza? Mhm. Yeah. They pulled out 8,000 people. from Gaza because it wasn't worth the. protection of that settlement to give an. experiment in good faith and goodwill to. see if a Palestinian state could be. created. Okay. Let me Let me read you a. quote. Good. Okay. This is uh This is.

Dov Weissglass who was the senior. advisor to Sharon in his government when. they pulled out of Gaza. Here's why they. did it. Uh-huh. Quote, "The significance of the disengagement. plan is the freezing of the peace. process. And when you freeze that. process, you prevent the establishment. of a Palestinian state, and you prevent. a discussion on the refugees, the. borders, Jerusalem. Effectively, the. whole package called the Palestinian. state with all that it entails has been. removed indefinitely from our agenda.

And all of this with authority and. permission. All with a presidential. blessing and the ratification of both. houses of Congress." Of course, he's. speaking about our government, Mhm. not. the Israeli government. Mhm. I continue with the quote. "The. disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde. that is necessary so that there will not. be a political process with the. Palestinians. The disengagement plan. makes it possible for Israel to park. conveniently in an interim situation. that distances us as far as possible.

from political pressure. It legitimizes. our contention that there is no. negotiating with the Palestinians." You. know, you mentioned that they pulled out. 8,000 uh settlers or so. I think it was. a little bit more than that, 8,500, something in that ballpark. That same. And and the graves? Hold on. Let me That same year they put. 15,000. in the West Bank. So, this was never And. now, by the way, they also if you could. So, they pulled the IDF forces out of. Gaza and put them all on the perimeter.

Okay. They still controlled the amount of. food, the amount of uh construction. supplies, the amount of medical supplies. that could come in. They controlled the. airspace, the seaspace. This is why all. the international human rights. organizations all say the occupation. never ended. Well, In fact, life actually got worse. for the people living in Gaza. But just. to be very clear, the Israelis were very. explicit in their own words. They did. this to dead the peace process which. they had agreed to to see through.

because I have to. as well as the entire global community. was like, "You got to stop eventually. You can't just occupy these people. forever.". You just did something inadvertently I I. can't let you get away with when you s-. read me a quote of one person and then. said the Israelis did this. There were a. lot of people that were for the. disengagement because they genuinely. believed that if we cede land to the. Palestinians to give their own right to. attempt to self-determine and form a. state, then we will get more peace. And. every attempt Israel has made to do that.

has led to more bloodshed and terrorism. against Israel following Oslo Accords, Second Intifada. And as we've seen now, what happened in the last 18 years in. Gaza. You cannot blame Israel. Well, Wait, wait. I didn't interrupt. You cannot blame Israel. but okay. Keep going. once. I gave you one. I'll give you one. You cannot blame Israel for a culture. that is bred within Gaza raising. children every day in kindergarten, as. young as kindergarten, that they they. they should aspire to become shahids and. martyrs and and they should live the day. that they can go into an Israeli cafe in.

Tel Aviv and blow themselves up. That is. what they've been doing. That you cannot. blame Israel for all the international. aid that's coming to Gaza that instead. of being used to invest in. infrastructure and build up a prosperous. state alongside Israel, instead we're. investing in terrorist tunnels, terrorist activities, and destroying any. chance of an actual free prosperous. society. You can't blame Israel for. wanting to secure its border. And you. can understand why they would be. cautious when pulling out of Gaza. And. look at what happened 18 years later. I. think you're always starting the story. in the middle. You're saying, "Well,

they pulled out and they were cautious. in securing the border and monitoring. things, and that's what caused the. terrorism." No, they they were. monitoring things because they were. smuggling rockets into Israel in order. to attack them and using and using all. the aid and materials to build rockets. and weapons to constantly attack and. deliberately attack Israeli civilians. Everything Every rocket fired at Israel. is indiscriminate and with the intention. of of killing Israelis and maximizing. civilian casualties. And so, I think. this is like this this moral equivalency. that's being done is is really.

disturbing to me in the sense that. Israel is not is not doing those things. even though there's a disproportionate. in terms of the numbers. We can specify. we can get into those details. Um but. the point is. it. the the they the disengagement you There. may be There may have been politicians. who said, "Oh, this will cause this. This will do this. We can benefit from. this in such and such way." But you're. taking all the agency away from the. actual terrorist regimes that took over. and sought to destroy Israel as. explicitly stated in their charter. How. can Israel be called the one who's. doesn't have the moral high ground here. when they're fighting against regimes.

that took over with the explicit goal of. wiping out Israel and all of the Jews. I. don't care if they said something in '67. as some kind of tactic to try to get. world pressure off of them. But they. benefit from this kind of apologist for. what they're doing. I think. for what for for saying that. it was all it's all Israel. It's all. Israel's responsibility. This occupation. is perpetuated simply because of Israel. It's It's perpetuated because of Israeli. security needs. That's Well, okay. You're just you're you're doing a lot of. arguing with straw men here and not. anything that I actually said. So,

number one, I didn't pick a quote from. some random Israeli. I picked a quote. from Sharon's senior advisor explaining. why they embarked on the policy that. they did. He didn't say, "This is what I. like about the disengagement plan." He. said, "This is the purpose of the. disengagement plan." I'm sorry. If you. had, I don't know, uh Paul Wolfowitz on record telling you. this is why the George W. Bush. administration did something, that's not. the same thing as just like some guy in. Kansas said it. I didn't just pick some. random Israeli. I picked a senior member.

of the government as they were doing. this telling you what the policy was. about. And in terms of this like a lot. of these are like the buzzwords that I. hear in these debates, moral. equivalency. I never said they were the. same. I In fact, I think Israel's done. much worse to the Palestinians than the. Palestinians have done to the Israelis. So, I'm not saying they're the same at. all. And in terms of. Well, you can react. It's kind of an. objective fact. But look, No, intention. in in when evaluating morality matters a. ton. I mean, if I if I'm driving.

Yeah, but you're just assuming what the. intention is. I'm reading you the words. of what their intentions are. If I'm driving in my car and I. accidentally lose control of the car, the brakes go out, and I kill 10 people, versus if I'm driving my car and I see. one person and I deliberately run over. them, the latter case is a much worse. human being deserving of condemnation, even though in the first case. difference. more people died. I think. people look at numbers and they say. Israel must be the bad guy here because. of the disengagement. such a This is so disanalogous. I mean, like yes, obviously there's a difference. between vehicular manslaughter and.

first-degree murder. However, And self-defense and murder, I would. say, is a difference. Yeah, and self-def- Listen, this is all. the stuff. It's like look, self-defense, just to be very clear about this here, okay? To break down kind of these terms. If somebody broke into my house. and points a gun at me, and I shoot and. kill that person, I can say, "Hey, I. acted in self-defense. This guy was. threatening me." Nobody would argue if. an IDF soldier shot one of the Hamas. militants on October 7th in Israel, no.

one would be sitting here going like, "Oh my god, how could Israel do that?". That would be legit self-defense. nobody, but No, hold on. Let me just. finish my point here. Now, if. nobody I think is pretty fair on that, but whatever. Anyway, if someone broke. into my house, kills a family member of. mine, and then runs out into the world, and I go, "I got to go get that guy. because of self- I have to defend. myself." Now, that I might have a right. to go get that guy, but that's not.

self-defense. That's not what. self-defense is. That would be justice, that would be revenge, he keeps firing at you? Yeah, let me just finish my point, okay? Cuz you just Just me not to interrupt. you. So, what we're talking about now, even if you're just talking about Israel. going and getting the people responsible. for October 7th, that's not. self-defense. You can call it justice, you can call it revenge, but it's. something else. Now, if that person who. just came over in my house and killed. one of my family members goes back to. his house and I know that his kids, his.

wife, his aunt, his grandma are all in. there, and I say I'm going to blow up. the house and kill all of them cuz I. want to get that one guy who came over. here and killed somebody, I have. committed not vehicular manslaughter, but murder in the first degree, cold-blooded murder, okay? So, I'm just. saying I know things are a little bit. different when we're talking about. different countries, even though Gaza is. not exactly a country, but I'm just. saying invoking self-defense.

to justify what is actually murder in. the first degree is just pure trickery. Like, that's not a real comment on. what's going on. it is. I can explain it to you. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. I would say you're. stopping the continuation of things. It's not just going into the house. And. this this really boils down to a lot of. this conversation boils down to the. morality of war to begin with because. it's not just a bunch of random. individuals fighting. We have. governments that have a responsibility. to seek out justice and defend their.

citizens. And I would say it's not just. somebody committing a violent act. against you, but threatening to do so. over and over again and under that. duress, a threat of violence is just as. justified to defend yourself as actual. violence in real time. Would you agree. to that? No, not necessarily. a gun up and then say I'm going to shoot. you and I'm going to keep doing it, you. have a right to defend yourself. Right, but if a if a homeless guy on the street. goes goes I'm going to kill you and your. whole family, and I just murder that. guy, you'd be like, no, that's not. justified just cuz he made some threat.

that he has no ability to follow through. on. And so, it's it's not. I I can understand that, but I'm just to to Yes, to continue my. point, it's not that they just commit. this act and then go back to their. business. If they stay in that family's. house, outfit the windows of that house so that. they can successfully shoot RPGs at. soldiers trying to do special operations. and trying to gather intelligence, and. they use these houses and create. military installations out of these. homes, then is then you do have the. right to That is self-defense to to to.

and blaming Hamas for putting these. people in harm's way, for putting for. implicating themselves and exploiting. that asymmetry. And Israel makes efforts. to minimize civilian casualties, but. it's not accountable to Israel to do. that when it is fighting a war of. defense. a good. First off, that does not describe the. vast majority of the cases of people. being killed in Gaza, but okay, in that. hypothetical, I think the way you put it. is an interesting one. They're. exploiting that asymmetry. That's right. because this is an asymmetrical war, okay? Do you think Israel exploits the.

asymmetry at all? Do you think they. exploit the the fact that they have way. more power than the Palestinians? Dave, Dave, Israel in terms of these. claims about genocide and being leveled. at Israel, which I think is a smear. Just think about it this way. Israel could level the place tomorrow. They could have done it on October 8th. and 9th and leveled the entire country. They could do it, but they won't do it. And Hamas. can't do it, but they would do it. If. they had the military capacity, they. would kill every Israeli tomorrow. Do. you not agree with that? Okay, so I just.

want to jump in here cuz I do want to. ask a question about that because I have. shown aerial footage. There have been. Doctors Without Borders that have gone. there that have worked in tons of war. zones and have written pieces saying. that. this is not a regular war. Like, it. looks like they are raising the place. And when I see again, of course, someone. will always say that's propaganda here, but when I look at it, it does sort of. look like they are. they want these buildings fully. collapsed, and then it doesn't it's not. helpful to the pro-Israel side when. Jared Kushner jumps up and talks about.

how profitable the property would be. And so, I do want to jump into kind of. what Israelis are currently protesting. I actually got a phone call today from. an Israeli newspaper who was saying we. would like a comment from Candace. because the Israelis are believing that. some of this was a false flag. He had. interviewed some Israelis on the ground, and they think that, you know, there's a. larger plan that's at bay. Now, that. sounds crazy unless you read the. Jerusalem Post article which came out. earlier this week. I covered it on my.

show where they are saying that there is. no question that. the Israeli government knew that Hamas. was going to kidnap 250. Um I want to read it read to you. verbatim here because I don't want to. miss I don't want to misquote the. Jerusalem Post. Obviously, none of us. would say the Jerusalem Post is. anti-Israel or anti-Semitic. Um the headline read, "The IDF knew of. Hamas's plans to kidnap 250 before. October 7th attack. The IDF had precise. information about Hamas's intentions,

but due to prevailing conceptions in the. security establishment and possible. negligence by officials, the warning. signs were not acted on." Now, you can. go ahead, you can read that article, guys. We'll drop it in the link. And I. do want to say this is kind of gets into. what Charlie Kirk was saying instantly. about any of us who have been to Israel. Just like it's a very long time for them. not to respond. I've been to Israel, you've been to Israel. It's very small, and there's just it feels like there's a. military presence every 5 ft. It's. actually scary going into the country. They're so secure. You see women. holding, you know, massive guns pointing. down at you in the airport. And so,

people were questioning whether or not. they allowed this attack to go on, and. they had this intelligence, and they. wanted to go on for larger regions. Additionally, we know that Egypt said. that they had handed Israel a report and. told them that there was something that. was being planned. Ami, do you look at. that and say, well, that's all a. conspiracy and that's crazy, or do you. think. that's interesting? I just like like to. hear your feedback on that. would say to that is obviously everybody. on the pro-Israel side, especially, wants a full investigation after as to.

how something like this could have. happened. The fundamental obligation of. any government, first and foremost. before any other policy, and we all. would agree here, is to protect its. citizens. And everybody acknowledges. that security failure. To infer this. nefarious incendiary reason to me sounds. very much like 9/11 truthers saying, "Hey, there was a lot of money to be. made from the Iraq war, and we needed a. reason to go in, so let's just let the. planes hit the towers, and it's not. really Saudi Arabia, and it's not really. the hijackers, it was an inside job.". So, it to me it has as much credibility. upon hearing it for the first time from.

you here, that idea sounds about as. credible as as a 9/11 truther. conspiracy. should add more here cuz the article was. a bit longer. I didn't realize this was. the first time you were hearing it. because it did it just come out. yesterday, so that makes total sense. It's a it's actually a document. So, a. newly surfaced document has revealed, and this is the reason why the Israelis. are protesting, has revealed that the. IDF and the intelligence systems had. detailed knowledge of Hamas's plan to. raid Israel and kidnap 250 people weeks. before the October 7th massacre. The. document, which was compiled in the Gaza.

division, outlined Hamas's intentions. and was known to top intelligence. officials, according to a report by Kan. News. And then it goes into further. detail. So, I think And by the way, quite ironically, yeah, 9/11, there were a lot of questions as. well, USS Liberty. And I just so you. know where I stand on this, I do not. think that false flag attacks are. impossible. In fact, I know they're not. impossible because of the CIA. declassified documents pertaining. pertaining to Operation Northwoods and. JFK's refusal to allow them to stage a.

false flag attack with the CIA on. American soil to go to war with Cuba. So, if we accept that. intelligence agencies, I'm referring to. America now, have attempted those things. in the past, and now they have documents. alleging that they absolutely knew they. knew something. Now, they could have. been negligent, that's entirely. plausible. I do think, given a lot of. the rhetoric, and I definitely I. personally don't think Bibi Netanyahu is. a good person. I do think he's quite. nefarious given statements he's made in. the past, and he's been caught on camera. talking about, "Don't worry about. America, and we're going to do this to.

the Palestinians. Turn the cameras off. It's. I just don't see him as a good guy, and. I think that that's what a lot of people. are questioning. Like, why do Jewish. Americans feel that they have to defend. this guy. Because simply because he's. the leader of Israel. There are always. bad leaders. I wouldn't defend Joe Biden. against crazy stuff. You know what I. mean? I think it's important to make those. distinctions. I would simply say that, you know, someone I think we all like, Thomas. Sowell, is always asking when you're. evaluating things, compared to what? You. know, it's not like I can stand by. everything Bibi Netanyahu has said or. would defend him, and not everyone. should, but compared to what? When we're.

looking at the situation, the leadership. of the opponents and the enemies of. Israel have said far, far, far worse, worse, more disgusting, more genocidal. things than I think anyone in Israel's. ever said. And it's evidenced by the fact that you. you you just you don't see the same. kinds of. you don't see IDF going in to. a Palestinian home, dragging a body. through the streets of Tel Aviv to mobs. of cheering crowds. And I will say also, just as a point, that that as we got. into the weeds of the military actions.

here and what's justified in our. discussion before, Dave, about. self-defense, I just I I know that. argument from authority, like, you know, everyone should be able to talk about. anything, but it's to approach this. topic with humility as we all sit here. comfortably in armchairs in the West. commenting on our microphones and on our. podcasts as if we're military tacticians. knowing exactly how to conduct a war. If. we all accept the fact that war is. horrible, and war is tragic, and war is. ugly, like, even a just war, if we could. if if you agree that there are joint.

wars that are just, and you're never. going to not have civilian casualties. and collateral damage, not saying those. terms as just buzzwords and just ways to. evade responsibility and accountability, but we accept that in reality war is. hell, and war is tragic, and you do your. best you do the best you can, but you. you. I just think it's it's really I always. find it really frustrating, and it's. kind of a. just rich to see people all of us. everybody kind of commenting on this as. if they know if Israel's just in. responding to October 7th, we can tell. them not the IDF, not the military.

experts on this who are trying to. conduct this war, we know best how they. should do it. And what But way that what. that manifests in ultimately is you. know, soldiers having is 19 and. 20-year-old Israeli soldiers sitting in. a booby-trapped building in Gaza waiting. to be killed because the rules of. engagement in Israel are super so so. strict and and they have to go through. so many channels before they actually. execute operations and then we get. reports back of dead soldiers who were. blown up who were killed because they. couldn't. execute properly be effectively because.

they were restricted by rules of. engagement that Israel imposes upon. itself. You would never hear that from. the Hamas side. You would never hear the. Hamas issuing an apology for a rocket. that landed in the wrong place or Hamas. getting up and saying we're launching an. investigation to find out what went. wrong here. And Dave, I know you're not. defending that and I'm not trying to. just make points past you. I'm just I'm. pointing out that to me it's a point of. confusion as to why not more people see. it that way. you only Yeah, if you only look at. things from one side's perspective and. of course that is the more powerful, the. more wealthy, the ones who are doing.

more of the killing. If you just look at. it from their perspective that's true. You could just as easily say, "Hey, we're all sitting here in America. talking to our microphones. What do you. know what it's like to be lived in a. blockaded occupied territory where you. just got to accept that your grandmother. was just, you know, killed in a in a. some drone strike or that your kids just. got their limbs blown off. Maybe you got. to join Hamas. What do you know about. the rules of engagement? Maybe you got. to go over there and kill whoever you. can." I mean, you could play this on. either side. Let me just say a few. things cuz there's just been a lot here.

So, I want number one, I did read this. piece in the Jerusalem Post and I will. say I'm not a conspiracy theorist on. this. I I think that the most likely. explanation, although I'm not ruling. anything out. I mean, there's definitely. no question there were wild. um. exaggerated claims made about October. 7th that were just not true and were not. founded. The atrocities were horrific. enough. There was really no need for it, but there were a lot of claims that were. made that just turned out to not be true.

at all. Um there is no question that. Benjamin Netanyahu is desperate to keep. this war going as long as he can because. whenever the music runs out he's the. longest-serving prime minister in. Israeli history and his entire doctrine. was I'm going to do this and thwart a. Palestinian state so that we can protect. our people and it culminated in October. 7th. So, there's Yes, there I wouldn't. say nobody doesn't want a real. investigation of October 7th, but.

there's a reason why we haven't had that. yet. But I don't know if any of you guys. ever heard. In fact, I think I might have brought. this up when I was on your your old. show, Candace, with my first and I'm. guessing last appearance on a Daily Wire. show. But. I I made this point that there's a hot. mic or like a secret recording of John. Kerry. that you can listen to from back when he. was Secretary of State and he was. talking about the rise of ISIS in Syria, which of course for people who know. about this, the Obama administration had. a brilliant plan of arming all of the.

anti-Assad rebels. to have another regime change there in. Syria and this is why ISIS was driving. around in Toyota trucks as they were. taking over parts of of Syria and parts. of Iraq. And John Kerry is talking very. candidly about this. And if you. remember, this is around the time when. Obama called them the JV. This was while he was sending weapons. and and funds in that he knew was ending. up in the hands of ISIS. And John Kerry. says very blatantly, he goes, "Look, we. saw the rise of ISIS and we thought this.

will be great because this will put. pressure on Assad to step down cuz these. guys are coming toward Damascus. What's. he going to do now, you know? And so. he's going to have to step down and then. we can put the government in that we. want." But then they turned around and. invaded Iraq. That wasn't part of the. deal, you know? Like it's just this. tremendous hubris that you can prop up. this terrorist organization and then use. them in the way that you want them. And. this is I'm just saying I know that for. years this was the Israeli attitude.

toward Hamas. This was the the quote, "We can control the height of the. flame." Benjamin Netanyahu said. He was. propping up Hamas intentionally so that. he could look to the rest of the world. and say, "Hey, look, we got no partner. for peace. Look, it's a terrorist group. who's won there." He was literally just. a week or two weeks, I think it was, before October 7th, he sent the head of. Mossad into Cutter to make sure cuz some. of the funding to Hamas had slowed down. So, he sent him in there to make sure. the funding continued. This was his. strategy. By the way, this has been.

acknowledged again by we could go. through a lot of quotes on this one by. all types of people at the top level. of Israeli government. It's been. reported on in. the Jerusalem Post, the Times of Israel, Haaretz, the New York Times, Washington. Post. It's been widely reported on. But I think this was more likely what. happened that they they totally. underestimated Hamas's abilities and. they did not think at all that they. could pull off something like October. 7th. And it seemed from what I've read.

about it that even when they were. getting this intelligence that was like, "Hey, they're planning something here. They're planning something big." It was. like, "Yeah, yeah, they'll never pull. that off. We don't even really have to. worry about them." Israel has for the. last 20 years been much more concerned. about the threat of Hezbollah, much more. concerned about the threat of Iran. They've totally downplayed Hamas as this. little like punk gang that like what. couldn't do anything to them. So, I'm. just saying. is there a bigger conspiracy involved.

that is possible? From everything I'm. looking at, it seems pretty likely that. that's just the the easiest explanation. is that Benjamin Netanyahu had. tremendous Dick Cheney-like hubris. thinking he could get away with doing. whatever he wanted to and this is why he. was propping up Hamas for years. and it it backfired. That all to me. starts the story in the middle, Dave, still because at the end of the day. what's been Hamas's attitude towards. Israel since its inception and what's. been Israel's enemies' attitude towards. Israel since its founding in 48?

You're not on the side of Hamas. Hamas. has a bad attitude, for sure. And in. perpetuating violent attacks and raising. populations of people to hate the Jewish. state and want to kill it, I mean. whatever political benefits one can. operate in that scenario, that scenario. exists because it's a given and by. default not having to do with any. occupation. They want to destroy all the. Jews. symmetry here? But don't you see. the asymmetry in our arguments here is. that I'm making a point Listen, I'm not. defending Hamas, but you are defending. the government of Israel. So, when I. point out something. by shielding accountability from Hamas.

in what's perpetuating this war, you're. not defending their actions, but you're. missing where the accountability lies. No, I'm Okay. Again, I'm not defending. Hamas. I'm not shielding them from. accountability, but you are defending. the government of Israel. So, when I. point to something that Israel's done. horrifically wrong that there's just. like no excuse for, you immediately. pivot to how bad Hamas is. Only because I I. only Hamas is a bad group. Hamas is a. bad group, but the way you say it is all. the emphasis. Okay, let's say I agree. with you. Netanyahu did all these.

nefarious things and I'll just for the. sake of argument That's a fact, dude. Totally. It's been widely reported. It's. documented. It's proven and we have the. quotes in their own words admitting to. it. There is still to me just There is still. the way I see that there is a marginal. issue and a fundamental issue. There is. a world that these politicians are. operating in and that world is that. Israel is the underdog surrounded by. regimes that wish its destruction. continually and constantly. And to. shield accountability for them, that's. not BB causing them to do that. BB.

didn't cause Hamas to come in, slaughter. opponents and Fatah members and take. over in Gaza and oppress his own people. It doesn't BB doesn't write curriculum. for schools in the Gaza Strip to hate. Jews. He doesn't do any of that. funds a terrorist organization so that. he can make sure he never has to give. the Palestinians their freedom. No, the. if the Palestinians wanted a. In his own words. If the Palestinians wanted a state. tomorrow and started saying, "You know. what? We support a two two-state. solution alongside Israel. We're going. to raise our children to support freedom. and prosperity and and live coexist with. our Israeli brothers next door and then.

we have a Gaza Strip that I could go. visit when I go to Israel and go and. vacation there along people. And by the. way, no Jews allowed ever live in the. Gaza Strip or the West Bank. It has to. be Jew-free for this to be just. Like. people are just emphasizing the complete. wrong side of the picture here and. that's what I feel you're doing. It's. that. in the Gaza Strip the idea is we have to. get rid of all the Jews. And and no one seems to have an issue. with that. Every Jew has to leave for. this to become a Palestinian state. And. no one seems to have an issue with that. Like the in talking about the. disengagement no one seems to care that. their main priority is Judenrein. No.

Jews here at all allowed. In the West. Bank, what about the quote settlements? Listen, there's a distinction to be made. between a caravan on top of a mountain. top with quote settlers versus. neighborhoods that have established a. real property right in the settlements. in that designation and one has to. account for new factors on the ground. And you've said this before in. conversations, Dave, that you don't want. Israel to be in terms of the right of. return. I heard you respond in in your. conversation with RFK that you don't. believe a Tel Aviv should just be turned. over to the Palestinians and completely. pulled. You would object to all that, right? Sure. So, I'm just saying my.

distinction here is not that I'm fully. Israel's imperfect and has its flaws, but I do think it's super important to. make distinctions between the marginal. issues driving the conflict and the. fundamental issues. And to me to. overlook the ideology that animates this. region against the Jewish state existing. at all is the fundamental. Look, the. there's no question that. there's a long and I find very. fascinating, very tragic, and very. complex history. in this region and it involves.

the Zionist settlers. embracing terrorism. It involves the. Arabs embracing terrorism. It I. shouldn't say not all of them, but. groups of both. It involves occupations and terrorism. and military conflicts and all of this. stuff. But if you say you want to get. down to the foundational issue here, like what's really going on, this is the. bottom line. A bunch of Eastern European Jews decided. that they wanted to start a homeland in.

historic Palestine. That this was like. where their holy book told them that. this would be the place to go and they. had suffered a tremendous amount of. oppression in Europe and so they. embarked on this plan. This this very. radical and like but pretty damn. impressive that they pulled it off. Um. this was their their plan. It was a. group of Eastern Europeans who uh. had never been to the area did not know. anything about the the local people. really. They uh most of them didn't.

speak the language that they decided. they wanted to build this country. around. In fact I don't think any of. them did at the very beginning. Um and. they they started migrating there. In. this process way before the beginning of. the creation of Israel it involved a. whole bunch of Palestinians being kicked. out of their homes. There was resistance. to that. There was violence on both. sides. When it culminated in the. creation of the state of Israel it. resulted in 750,000. Palestinians being evicted from their. land. Can I respond After the 1967 war.

Israel has occupied them ever since and. my argument is not that there's no bad. guys on the Palestinian side or that. they've never done anything wrong. My. argument is that that is the fundamental. issue and if you if you're not talking. about that you're not having a serious. conversation about this issue. In the. same way that if you want to actually. talk about 9/11 you have to talk about. American foreign policy. If you don't. acknowledge that then you're never. you're not even really having a. conversation about what's going on. That. understanding of the history I think is.

false. The way you just said it that. this fundamentally fundamentally Israel. is formed by all Eastern European Jews. displacing the native populations there. Do you do you dispute that there's. always been a Jewish presence in that. part of the world? Yeah of course there. has. There has been and that indigenous. rights and on on that argument alone. that historically Israel that part of. the world the last actual state and you. could go back I'm going back now to the. 2000 years argument that I know you. don't like but the point is that there. is a connection between the Jewish. people and Israel that goes back.

thousands of years. You don't deny that. Yeah sure but you you don't get to claim. a property right because you were. somewhere 2000 years ago. know but I'm I'm just let me finish the. point because you're simply starting the. story at this one element of Jewish. immigration to Israel and ignoring what. about all the Jews in the Arab countries. that were immigrating because they were. kicked out and expelled and the and the. efforts to purchase out purchase land. from absentee landlords who weren't. Sorry I'm sorry I just want to jump in. there because this is where it gets. confusing because. over time you know Judaism used to be a.

religion now it's a race and now it you. know some people think it's an ethnic. group I it's a bit confusing right? It's. not you think it's not a race okay. because some people would say to be. Jewish is to be a race. I think what. he's saying is that that migration from. the majority of Eastern Europeans into. the Middle East just to clarify because. I know it gets kind of confusing. It's. like of course there's always been. people that followed Judaism that have. lived in that region. There's always. been Christians there's always been Jews. But I'm talking about the rise of. Zionism which is what ultimately led to. the creation of Israel. There were.

hundreds of thousands of Jews that were. displaced from the Arab world and. ethnically cleansed from the Arab world. in that part of the region as well. We. conveniently leave out that fact of what. was going on. no it's not conveniently leaving it out. Yes it's true in 1948. this was all a European colonization and. displacement of a people so I'm. disputing that. was starting from the late 1800s and. taking you up to the creation of Israel. but yeah there's no question in 1948 in. Iraq and other surrounding Arab. countries a bunch of Jews were kicked. out. That's wrong that they did that. I. have no problem like acknowledging that.

that's wrong. The difference is that. nobody's defending that. Nobody's. pretending that never happened. Nobody. like again listen to your point that you. you said earlier and this is. when I said no of course that I don't. think all of the Jews should go back to. Europe is the answer any more than I. think we're going to give the land back. to the Native Americans. That's not. going to happen. You know it's many. generations later and you would be. committing the same evil act to kick all. these people out of their homes now. However what I am saying about Native. Americans is that number one we could.

recognize what was done to them. and say hey that wasn't so cool. And. number two if there's any Native. Americans around still they should have. full rights protections under our legal. order that they should have let their. natural rights protected. You can't just. keep abusing them. At a certain point. you got to go hey the past was bad. We're not going to 100% make up for it. but going forward you deserve your. freedom as much as anyone else does. you just said the whole indigenous. rights argument to Israel were Jews were. technically there first and displaced by.

previous empires doesn't matter. you're talking about hold on hold on. Listen. Th- this is a totally different. argument. To say oh well someone else. was displaced 2000 years ago or. something like that. Uh. okay fine. Yes lots of bad things have. happened historically and as I just said. we're not going to be able to go back. and rewrite every wrong that's. historically ever happened. We can say. stop doing it now. I get it cuz it's. That's the argument. I'm arguing that. the Palestinians get their crummy 22%.

Israel won. Okay? They won by. illegitimate. Yeah I get confused about the you know. the argument that like we are the. original Jews from the Bible. It's just. Ivanka Trump Ivanka Trump has converted. to Judaism. Is she now get to say that. she has claimed to I mean people over. these years have also there were mass. conversions. That's why I keep trying to. say it is relevant that we are talking. about a religion here because you can. just convert into a religion and then to. say well I'm this religion so I'm the. original person and I have a right here. I think it just gets crazy so we should.

really talk about practical solutions. which I think what you are saying. Yeah what you are saying Dave is that. you just believe it just needs to stop. Like everything just needs to stop. Allow the people that are remaining. there to be there and I mean what would. you say is a practical solution? Do you. follow BB Netanyahu's perspective that. until we get every last hostage we can. just keep blowing everything up. Well as. far as things blowing up we can keep. blowing things up. This idea that BB. should accept a negotiation and.

ceasefire is to me so backwards. They. should give back the hostages. unconditionally. Don't we all. Well what if they don't? Then you you have to pursue the. hostages. What they're doing is. does that mean? What does that actually. mean practically? Like if like I I need. to to hold you on the answer here. because is your perspective that if they. don't get back all 250 hostages that he. has a right. to kill every Palestinian? Every. Palestinian? There was a there was a. a a mission that took place a few weeks. ago and Israel was demonized because. hundreds of Palestinians were killed in.

an operation to try to rescue the. hostages. I guarantee you if Israel. could have walked in and taken them. peacefully without firing a bullet they. would have. The question isn't are. hundreds of Palestinians even though. they're of course they're not making a. distinction between who of those. Palestinians were actually terrorists. and attacking the Israeli soldiers. trying to rescue the. hostages. No distinction was made there. and the real question isn't um. is res- is hundreds of Palestinian lives. worth rescuing four Israeli hostages? The question is are hundreds of. Palestinian lives worth keeping for.

Israeli hostages? Worth kidnapping for. Israeli hostages? I hate this perversion. that's going on. They should be returned. unconditionally and Israel as a. government has a responsibility. I just need to hold you to an answer. because I I want to understand this. What do you mean unconditionally? So you mean but let's be practical here. If you say we're just going to keep. looking for our hostages until we get. them back. Okay? Is your perspective. that he can quite literally kill every. Palestinian if it means that he is able. to get hostages? Like there has to be we.

have to actually talk about this. practically because everyone says. unconditionally and we say until every. last hostage I'm like okay let's really. talk about what you're saying here. The. question to me is problematic and I'll. tell you why. I just the question should. be aimed at Hamas. Is it really worth. keeping these hostages when Israel has. an obligation to bring them back and. whatever the military cost is in the. collateral damage you have a. responsibility to return this hostage. You are the aggressor against Israel in. this scenario. In this current military. campaign I know Dave we're talking about. the broader context which I can revisit. to sort of wrap up the conversation but. in this current military campaign on.

October 7th a ceasefire was broken. You. went into sovereign territory. You. slaughtered people and I take issue with. this exaggerated claims of October 7th. I mean it's a gross conversation to have. and I've spoken to many many people who. it's not just reports I've read. I've. spoken to people personally who can. attest to the atrocities. But as you. said Dave even murder and burning people. alive is enough. So let's just take that. for what it is. But my point is they. aggressed against Israel. It's their You. can't all of a sudden then. complain when there's consequences for.

that. You have to be the ones. responsible. I'm not complaining. I'm. just trying to I'm just trying to. understand what you mean when you say. until every last hostage. I just need. like a yes or no. Does that mean that BB. Netanyahu and the IDF have a right to. kill every Palestinian if it means that. they are able to secure their hostages. It's a very simple moral question. It's. not a simple moral question at all. I. don't think they have a right to kill. every single Palestinian and gratuitous. violence is is can should be condemned. but they have a right to pursue them and. if Hamas keeps committing to keeping. them as in civilian homes hidden among.

civilian populations Israel has a right. and obligation and responsibility to to. rescue them. I can't see how we don't. agree on that. Well I I because because. the problem is there's a whole bunch of. babies being killed. So why don't you So. why don't you say Hamas give them back. and stop. No one's not everyone wants the hostages. returned. Sorry everybody wants the. hostages returned. I just disagree with. unconditionally. So you think it's just just to pursue. them but maybe you're disagreeing with. the means. Yes I'm saying you can't kill. every Palestinian to get back 250.

Israelis. That's my position. All right guys I hope you are enjoying. this conversation. I just want to take a. brief pause here because we are talking. a lot about freedom. We're talking a lot. about children. We're talking about. peace prosperity. Are these things. achievable? And of course just as. Americans we ask ourselves what kind of. a future do we want to leave for our. children. We know especially now that. these are not guarantees freedom peace. prosperity. It's up to us parents and us. grandparents to instill knowledge and a. love of liberty in them. Public schools. are definitely not going to do it. By.

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Unless this is what's crazy and what. what there's such a disconnect when you. even ask the question. You go, "I don't. understand how this is even like an. issue." It's like, "Oh, well the issue. is that babies are being murdered.". That's the issue that me and Candace. have with this, right? It's like. with murder. I disagree with the term. murder. You can disagree, but that's factually. true. So. Killed and murdered are different. things. You're describing intent. Yes, they are different things. Yes. Murdered. Murdered. When you drop a. bomb, when you drop a bomb knowing that. there's babies down there, knowing.

you're going to kill babies, you. murdered them. That's murder. When Obama. drops a drone on a wedding in Yemen, that's murder. And when Israel drops. these bombs on Gaza, they are murdering. people. It would be Listen, the standard. if you did that like within a. government, within the legal framework. of any government, this would be murder. in the first degree if anybody else did. it. So I'm quite comfortable using the. word. Let me Let me just finish my point. here. So the. If you don't just fundamentally value. Israeli life above Palestinian life,

then obviously if you have to kill a. whole bunch of children to save one. person, it's not like, "Oh, that's. obviously the correct answer." You go, "Uh, I don't know." I mean this is. There's there's so many innocent victims. here and that's the issue that people. have. Now if far as your your constant. kind of like deflecting this back to. like, "Why don't you tell Hamas to. release the hostages?" It's like Again, Hamas release the hostages. Okay, didn't. work. So let's talk about what we can. focus on now. This would be like if. right on the dawn of the invasion of.

Iraq, I were to say, "Well, I think. Saddam Hussein should step down and. institute Jeffersonian Republicanism in. Iraq so we don't have to invade." It's. like, "Yeah, but that's not on the table. right now." So like what is on the table. right now is should we invade or should. we not? The truth is that if the if the. mission truly was which by the way just. slight correction, Candace. Benjamin. Netanyahu has not said that if they. release the hostages, the war will be.

over. That's things that I've heard a. lot of like pro-Israeli pundits say. Benjamin Netanyahu said Hamas has to be. eradicated. So even if they did release. all of the hostages, it's not as if he's. said the war will be over now. He's said. until job is finished meaning all of. Hamas is taken out which is totally. unachievable and will not happen. But the question becomes if the primary. goal here is to retrieve the hostages. which I do think should be Israel's. primary goal, then.

what has led to them getting the vast. majority of hostages back not just in. this conflict but in the past? It's what. we do when people take hostages right. here in the United States of America. Someone runs into a bank and holds a few. hostages. You know what we do? We don't. start dropping bombs on the place. We. don't go in spraying machine gunfire. We. call in a person known as a negotiator. And you try your absolute best to. negotiate the return of the hostages. That's it. Sorry. And this has been successfully. done many times. It's a much much better.

strategy than just slaughtering. an insane amount of innocent people. which is going to do nothing but. guarantee that there's more hatred and. more terrorism in the future. I think history disproves that whole. outlook that this will create more. terrorism in the future because I think. when you demonstrate to an aggressor. that attacks you for ideological reasons. that to the extent that you support this. ideology of hating the Jewish people and. hating the Jewish state and wishing our. destruction, to the extent that you buy.

into this, you will face the. consequences of our. military doing what it needs to do to. defend itself against that. And if you. keep But history disproves my point? You. guys have been Are you guys Israel has. been dominating militarily the. Palestinians for decades and decades and. decades. to World War and we can go back to. the fact that when you assert your I. mean war is a ruthless terrible thing. Can you imagine any sort of war where. there isn't collateral damage or any. civilians? Does that mean it's never. just? Does that mean it's not just? No, it doesn't mean it's always just.

but but But what you said something. interesting before where you said, "Okay, Hamas release them." But they're. not going to release them. Does that. still mean they're not accountable for. what's to come when they don't do that? No, Hamas ought to be accountable, but. innocent Palestinians shouldn't be. For the For the innocent For the. innocent Palestinians that die in the. crossfire. I'm not denying that that. happens. Why are you not. agreeing with me that Hamas is. ultimately accountable for the. escalation for the perpetuation? In. other words, we all of us here hate the.

sight of dead Israelis, hate the sight. of dead innocent Palestinians. So this. whole idea of valuing one life over. another, I I I'm with you on that. But. I'm saying you know who does like the. sight of dead Palestinians? Hamas. They. tell you that very explicitly. Yes, so. so do a lot of Israelis. Yeah. No, that's that's a false equivalency. No, it's not. Why do you use this term? I didn't say they're the same thing. I. didn't say they're equivalent. I said. there's also a lot of Israelis who like. the sight of dead Palestinians. at all to the same degree. And a lot of. the people killed as I said on October.

7th were peace activists. Israel would. want peace tomorrow with its neighbors. if its neighbors just said, "Okay, we. want peace with you too.". But they don't. So I I would just interject here to say. that I I believe that Bibi Netanyahu. has a different agenda and I think what. gives a lot of people pause, people that. are agnostic on this issue is when you. say something that feels like a very. easy moral question. Like do you believe. every Palestinian should be killed in an. effort to get 250 hostages? And people.

don't say, "No, of course not. That. would be crazy." Like we can't just kill. a million people, women and children, majority children because we need to get. 250 hostages. I did say that. And I think that's kind of leads into. that. You didn't You didn't say like it. wasn't an easy question. You were like, "Uh, I don't know about this question. It would be Hamas's fault." And I think. that that might be And this is really to. be constructive here, Amie. I'm not. trying to come down on you. I'm just. trying to be constructive because I see. I'm I'm I'm actually actually using you. as a conduit to talk to the entire. pro-Israel lobby. So Do not take any. offense to this, but I'm not a lobbyist.

No, no, no, no, no. Like that's why I'm. saying I'm using you as a conduit. So. Please don't take offense to this, but I. want to communicate this cuz there are a. lot of people that are pro-Israel who. lobby for Israel interests and I want. them to just hear this feedback because. for me and I think that I I am a person. that really just does see racial. equality. Like I am not I just do not. value Israeli life more than Palestinian. life. Period. Innocent life more than. one over the other. And when I hear that. question and people are not able to give. such an easy response. Like obviously.

no. Like. demand. I want every hostage returned, but not under a circumstance where a. million Palestinians are going to be. obliterated. And yet we see so often. that a lot of the pro-Israel voices are. are not willing to say it. They're like, "Honestly, I've seen people tweet this. until every looks like we're going to. have to go in there until every last. Palestinian." And it's Hamas's fault. That's doesn't make me Like I don't. think that that brings people closer to. the pro-Israel side. It makes people go, "Okay, are we dealing with racial.

supremacists? Are these are these good. people? How how is there no compassion? How is there no Wait a second. No, of. course we do want the hostages back, but. we also obviously know that we can't. kill a million people to get back 250. people because that just sounds. war and we look back at history and the. millions of innocent people who are. killed in conflict in war, one has to do. one does have to evaluate fundamentally. how these things happened and who's. accountable for those deaths and who's. accountable for innocent collateral. damage. And it's so obvious to me that. all of those people we talk about that.

have been killed and. have sympathy for in this. conflict were alive on October 4th, 5th, and 6th. Now, you're back to your. question. If I need to clarify it, yes. Of course you Not every What was your. initial question? No, every single. Palestinian life. No, and Israel doesn't. have to do that. And thank God it. doesn't have to do that. And it wouldn't. be just to have gratuitous violence. against innocent Palestinians. But when. there are innocent Palestinians that are. killed in collateral damage, yes, the. fault is on Hamas for initiating this.

war. Absolutely. And when they embed. themselves among those civilians, when. they hide hostages inside a journalist's. home that then gets reported, Palestinian journalist killed, and you. see that headline and say, "Oh my God, Israel's killing journalists." Well, the. journalist was keeping three people. hostage. So this. muddying of the waters over who's a. combatant, who's a who's a civilian in. all of these situations when somebody. talks about children, but we're talking. about a 17-year-old with an RPG, that's where I'm telling you it becomes. I'm illustrating why it's very very. complicated and we can't just think of. these things in a black and white terms.

or in abstractions. Like, "Well, a. million people, that would be terrible.". But when it comes to World War when. millions of people were killed in Nazi. Germany or hundreds of thousands in in. specific in specific. instances, we're judging things in reality itself. under the context of war which is. horrible and nobody on the pro-Israel. side, at least for me and I speak for. myself, desires it or wants it at all. But in wars of self-defense against wars. of aggression that are committed against. Israel, you know, who are we as far as. military tacticians to say how it should. be conducted other than the fact that it.

is just and the hostages should be. returned unconditionally and that would. certainly mitigate civilian death on the. Palestinian side. So I like this who are. we to say what they should do militarily. other than to say it's just and it's. great. I guess we're we're qualified. enough to say that it's just, but we're. not qualified enough to say that it's. unjust. Okay. in the details. Absolutely. So look, Yes, there's a moral question. to be asked here on on war. Okay. So, if you imagine I'll get to. that question about war in a second. But, if you imagine.

say like uh um you know, there's a. someone goes and takes a bunch of. hostages in a school or something like. that and they they're in with all the. children and your local police. department comes down and they go, "All. right, boys. Blow up the school." They. blow up the school. They killed the guy. who took all the hostages and they they. kill a whole bunch of kids with them. And then they turn around to you and go, "Hey, Dave. Why are you so outraged with. your local police department? I mean, that was on the guy who took the. hostages and he was using human shields.

And so, it is sure does suck that we had. to kill all these kids, but it's not our. fault. It's that guy's fault." You could. see where maybe I wouldn't accept that. answer. And I go, "Hey, first of all my. my tax dollars fund you. Okay? Which I'm. not thrilled about to begin with. And. number second, you're the one your whole. justification here, right? Is that. you're the cops. You're supposed to be. the good guys. You're the first world. democracy in a sea of the third world,

right? So, yeah, there is a little bit. of a different standard. You would hope. over a terrorist group or someone taking. hostages and you who supposed to be my. taxpayer funded police officers. And if. they turned around and said, "Well, sorry. All the deaths are just on them.". I think we would all say that just on. the logic of it. Because they took. hostages and because they're among. civilians, therefore responsibility. absolved is ridiculous. Now, to your. point about war um I had a question. I.

had a question on that too. Well, well, let me just hold on, but I just want to. get to. the other stuff because there's a few. things that I haven't addressed that you. said. Um Look. There there has long been. many brilliant people particularly in in. the tradition of Christianity who have. thought about you know, just war theory, what a just war looks like. One of the. big separations that always. is made is whether it's a war of. necessity or a war of choice. The.

question Look. When you think about the. ungodly level of human suffering that. Israel is bringing to Gaza right now. I. mean. forget even like so many of these. debates which I appreciate that we. haven't gotten bogged at like get bogged. down into like the numbers and do you. trust the God Gaza's health ministries. numbers? Do you trust Israel's numbers? Look. I literally watched a couple. months ago an interview with a doctor. who just got back from Gaza who was. talking about the shortage of.

anesthesia. It's like if you could try to just think. what that looks like. Means they're. operating on children. with no painkillers, with no anesthesia, operating on little kids. You're talking. about bringing this profound level of. human suffering to a group of people. There's only one question that matters. And it's do you absolutely have to do. this? Is there no other option? Is is this. is it so self-evidently clear that the.

alternative to doing this would be worse. than doing this because this is so bad. And the simple reality is that Israel. just doesn't have to do this. They don't. have to. Israel had a monumental. collapse of intelligence and security on. October 7th. It is not a guarantee. especially after all they've done the. last 8 months, it's not a guarantee that. October 7ths are going to happen left. and right if they were to end this war. today. If they were to end this war. today Israel October 7th is the worst.

terrorist attack that's ever been pulled. off in the history of the existence of. Israel. And there's been lots of. terrorist groups and they've been. plotting a lot of things. They pulled. off this one big one which I'm sure if. we ever get that investigation, we'd. find out as much as we already know, we'd find out even more about what a. massive failure it was on on Israel's. part. So, how about they could plug that. up? Israel for years before October 7th. was propping up Hamas. Was. underestimating the threat of Hamas and.

was relying way too heavily on their. like uh. machine gun robots instead of having. like actual soldiers on protecting their. border. So, they could just not do that. They could just stop right now and not. do that anymore. Stop propping up Hamas. Stop relying so much on the on the. machines. Have actual soldiers there and. don't underestimate the threat. They. don't have to keep doing this. They. don't have to keep bringing this level. of human suffering to the people of. Gaza. Two points, Dave, I wanted to ask you. ask you.

Does a. Does a government that represents a. people have a unique obligation to its. own civilians as far as protection? Sure. Okay. Yes. So. in your scenario of the bank robber guy. going into a bank and taking people. hostage and his own government coming in. and mowing everybody down. You would say. it's clear that that's not comparable to. two warring governments going at war. against each other. One being. responsible for its own civilians as uh. and one other being responsible for. protection of its civilians.

Okay. So, just to be clear on a couple. things there. Number one, there is no. government in Gaza. Hamas is not a. government. They are a government. They No, they are. not. In what sense are they not a. government? Israel literally has control. over the tax revenue. They have control. over their trade, their airspace, their. sea space, how much medicine gets in, how much technology gets in, how much. food gets in, how much sugar gets in. No, they're not a government. They're. ruled by Israel. But, to your question. Yep. um look, I'm not saying it's an.

identical situation and I even pointed. out that okay, things are a little bit. different when you're talking about like. you know, within a country versus not. So, you said it's analogous before, so. I'm pointing that out. It's a logical analogy. The point is. that the logic that says because they. took hostages and because they struck. first therefore all the death that. follows from this is on them simply does. not follow. It's just not correct. But, could you imagine if you did a. further analysis hypothetically speaking.

given that it's just for Israel to. respond, which we agree. When when. they're attacked after October 7th, they. have to respond. We're really arguing. here and I'm just honestly trying to. identify this area of disagreement. Um. it's that the means have been. disproportionate. They don't have to do. it this way. They could do it a. different way. Um and when I say who are. you to say that, it's more like if you. analyze it, could you imagine a. situation where given the fact that. Israel does a lot of dropping of. leaflets and intelligence gathering to. find out where people are and sending in. special forces and risking their own.

soldiers' lives and their civilians'. lives for the rockets and and and fire. they're willing to tolerate keeping. having a high tolerance for their own. civilian casualties. If you analyze the. situation, could you imagine a situation. where. the choices are just between bad and. worse? Well, I mean look. The in obviously as I. said, October 7th was the worst single. terrorist attack. But, in the 70s and. 80s, Israel was dealing with terrorist. attacks on a much more regular basis. Of. course, there was also the the first and. second intifada. Um it was not until.

Benjamin Netanyahu that they ever. started treating the terrorism problem. as a military problem. It was always. targeted assassinations, special. operations, negotiations for hostages, things like that. That was always how. Israel dealt with the terrorism problem. throughout its entire history until this. psychopath Benjamin Netanyahu. rose to prominence and decided that. we're just going to treat it for the. regular old army. Just treat it like. it's a it's like it's not a people that.

we've had captive for six decades. trading a thousand Palestinian prisoners. who've been convicted of who've been. who've committed crimes against Israel. who've committed Have they been. convicted? Have all thousand of them? They've committed violent acts against. Israelis. I think that's Have they been. convicted? Cuz you started saying that, but then. you kind of stopped. I don't I'm in. certain cases yes and in certain cases. no, but they're not hostages. That's my. point. They're not innocent. They've. committed violent acts against Israelis. Well, you know, you kind of don't get to. say that if they haven't been convicted. of a crime. That's kind of the whole way.

a system of justice works. I understand that point. Fair point, but. my point is this. Do you think it is a a. moral to trade a thousand for. uh in terms of disproportionality. In. other words, incentivizing kidnapping. and hostage taking on the Palestinian. side. That's what those negotiations. ultimately lead Yes, again. Sinwar who. was traded back to Israel was the one. responsible for October 7th. Okay. I. yes, as everyone who's a member of. Western civilization, this should be. foundational would agree that yes, it's. better to let a thousand guilty men go.

free than put one innocent person away. Yes. Oh, no, that's not what I'm saying. That's Hold on. So, no, it's exactly. what I'm saying. It's better to let a. thousand people who are guilty go free. than to kill 200 trying to save one. person. Yes. It's better to let a. thousand people who are who could risk. attacking Israel again in the future. go free go free again. See see listen, this is the point that I think me and. Candace were were getting at that I. think you're not exactly understanding. Okay. See, even when you say this, you. go, "But, that's a risk." That some.

innocent Israelis could die. Right. No, because That's better That's. better than just slaughtering a bunch of. Palestinians. Correct. No, because I. there is a and I'm going to say it. again. This false equivalency between oh. well, there's prisoners and Palestinian. prisoners and there's Israeli hostages. and we should just trade for them. And. I'm just saying there's a moral. difference between Yeah. the. the actions of one and the actions of. another. The crime of the hostages being. taken were that they were Israeli Jews. and the crime of Palestinian prisoners. is very different than that. These a lot. of these these people have committed.

acts of violence against Israelis. Well, okay. So, first of all do it again like. Sinwar for example. I I think you're. getting at a really important point. here. By the way, it also this is. as a lot of the pro-Israeli side does, it's very like looking at Israel through. rose-colored glasses. I have heard. several different like first-hand. reports from former IDF soldiers who. like quit and left Israel because. they're like, "No, we were just like. rounding up people and kidnapping them.". And then like your your like sergeant. would be like, "Ah, whatever. We'll say. he was throwing rocks at us." And get.

like, "No, there actually are a lot of. innocent people both in the West Bank. and Gaza who have been kidnapped by the. Israeli government with zero due process. because again, they have zero natural. rights, you know? Cuz screw them, I. guess. That's just what they have to. accept forever." But you made a point. earlier that I never responded to and I. think what you're talking about now is. somewhat on on the same. similar vein. And that you were saying, "Look, there's a moral difference. between like. Hamas running in. on October 7th and just trying to.

slaughter in the most barbaric way like. any civilian they could get their hands. on and an Israeli bomb that is trying to. get one bad guy and sure might kill a a. lot of innocent people in the process. But like there's just a moral difference. between those." And I I do on some level. I do agree. Like, there is no question. that one is like so much more primitive. and barbaric and you know, like so I was. just by the way, I I know me and Candace. are both pro-life. I don't know where. you fall on the abortion issue, but it's. not really important just for the the.

point. But someone said this to me. yesterday which is a very like kind of. basic. pro-choice argument that someone said to. me. They go, "Oh, so you say. you say abortion is murder, Dave. Well, so that means you've you've probably. been around women who've had abortions. before. You're not treating them like a. murderer. You know what I mean?" And. like there is a sense in which that's. true. Like that's true. If I like if I. found out my neighbor was a woman who. had an abortion once, I would feel a lot. different than if I found out my. neighbor was a murderer. You know what I.

mean? Like that But. But that's not necess- But like the act. is the same thing. It's just that look, you have a little bit more grace for one. because it's kind of like, "Ah, we live. in this culture where people have been. so poisoned." Look, I know a bunch of. military guys who went to Iraq. They're. murderers. But I also don't look at them. in the same way as someone who just like. murdered his neighbor because they were. caught up in this much bigger system. They were propagandized. I'd like to. change the culture to a point where they. kind of look at this in a different way.

So I'm saying there is something. different about the barbaric murderer. versus the soldier who fought in Iraq or. the woman who's had an abortion or. something like that. However, while you. can recognize there's something. different about it, you can also. recognize there's something very similar. about it. And if from the Palestinian. perspective, like if that was my kid and. they got killed and you said, "Well, Dave, it's not as if it was some. barbarian who ran over into your. country. It was just something that we. accepted.

be the outcome of pushing this button.". Then it's like, "Yeah, no, that So yes, there is kind of a difference, but there. is also something where because a. government is more sophisticated and. more powerful, we do have this kind of. reaction to look at it the way you are. This is different. They're not a They're. not being kidnapped. They're being. detained. They're obviously guilty. We're not just slaughtering people. We're having collateral damage." I get. the point. However, if you're on the. receiving end of that.

it doesn't feel any different. And I. believe that trick, Dave. I'm I'm. judging actions and I. of the differences between someone taken. into an Israeli prison. I'm not claiming it's a linguistic trick. trick. Yeah. I'm saying that there is often a. feeling the more sophisticated and more. powerful a country gets that it's like, "Oh, well, we're a little bit removed. from the brutality of what we're doing.". Whereas if you're on the receiving end. of that, you can understand where it. feels just as brutal. I I said as far as.

the subjects go who experience such a. thing, it doesn't matter if somebody. killed your family member by accident or. on purpose. For the subjects. experiencing it. The the difference isn't by accident. Okay. No, no, I'm just saying for. somebody experiencing a tragedy, a loss, a a bomb being dropped on their family. And I can argue that it was just if you. can make that argument that it's just as. far as their as far as they're. concerned, it doesn't matter. I. understand that point that you're making. that for those subjects, it doesn't. matter. But it's super important for the.

basis of basic civilization and. understanding these things that murder. is not the same thing as killing and. it's not the same thing as self-defense. Even though the outcomes as you're. describing are all the same. What's the. difference? This this person was killed. and it's barbaric and this person was. killed by. think you're missing my point. I think. you're missing my point a little bit. because I'm not saying No, it would look. as terrible as it is to lose a kid, you. would feel different if it was an. accident than if it was intentional. Like if it's an accident, you might fall. to pieces and be hurt. If it was. intentional, you might be ready to go. murder that person who killed your kid.

Um now that My point is that it's not. that it's unintentional. Again, when. Israel if Israel bombs a building that. they suspect a member of Hamas is in, but they know that there's a whole bunch. of innocent people there. It's not an. accidental killing. It's still a murder. It's they've decided that the price of. murdering these people is worth it to. get this guy. That's not. accidental. of that equation where leaving that. person in place will.

lead to a. a battalion being killed or an attack on. an Israeli city that's pending. not ignoring that. That's not a foregone. conclusion. It's not true. for you to say if you don't if you don't. face the risk of that on a regular. basis. It's it's convenient to say that. Again, you're only looking at you're. only looking at it from one perspective. Sorry. Go ahead. All right, guys. Well, you just heard. Dave Smith mention the fact that he is. pro-life. You already know that I am. pro-life. Well, the reality is that new. estimates show that more than 1 million. babies were killed by abortion in 2023.

That is the highest amount of abortions. since 2012. The overturning of Roe v. Wade only made them more ravenous for. the blood of babies. We absolutely must. fight back against this evil. Because. when they shout abortion, we have to be. screaming life. And how do we do that? Well, you know what I'm going to say. We. join hands with Pre-Born, the largest. pro-life organization in the country. that sponsors ultrasounds for clinics in. the highest abortion areas. Because when. a mother is considering abortion and she. meets her baby via ultrasound and she. hears that sweet little heartbeat it.

virtually doubles a baby's chance at. life. Every day Pre-Born rescues 200. babies' lives and that, my friends, is a. true miracle. By the time I finish. reading this ad two more babies will. have been taken by the tragedy of. abortion. But guess what? It takes just $28. $28 and that could be the difference. between life and death. So please join. the fight by sponsoring not just one, maybe even two, three, or 200. ultrasounds. All gifts are. tax-deductible. To donate, all you have.

to do is dial pound 250 and say the. keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or. you can visit preborn.com/candace. That's preborn.com/candace. So we are running up against time here. and so I first and foremost just want to. say how much I appreciate both of you. guys, but I want to just give the floor. for 2 minutes Ami for you to make your. points regarding what is happening in. Israel and also how Americans should. engage in the topic and then to give the. floor to Dave similarly. And then I'm.

going to give the floor to myself cuz I. was so good at staying quiet and it was. very hard for me. So you first, Ami. Okay. I in an effort to sort of. steel-man Dave's point and try to. understand it fully which I I believe I. do and it's It's been great talking to. you, Dave, and I think you've been. really passionate about this issue and I. appreciate your perspective. I still stand by the idea that. fundamentally what's driving this. conflict is not geographical and it is. not political. It is not a land dispute. It is ideological. It is religious. And.

the ideologies that animate what's going. on in the West Bank, the people who hate. the state of Israel and what's going on. in Gaza who hate. the. the state of Israel and wish it. destroyed don't wish it destroyed. because of a property dispute or because. of what happened upon its founding. They. don't want the existence of a Jewish. state and they want and they are the. ones who are genocidal explicitly. towards Israel and Jews around the. world. And to ignore that and. two places the right to the. self-determination, we would just get. peace and prosperity and coexistence.".

Well, every single effort to do that. over decades and decades has led to more. violence against Israelis. And the fact. that even before an occupation of. between '48 and '67 before the West Bank. and Gaza, there was an effort to and uh. to destroy Israel and attack Israel. And. there were even before the founding of. Israel, there was. violence against Jews in the region. And. I think to ignore that fundamental. reality, to ignore the culture that. exists not because of Israeli brutality, but because of radical Islamic. fundamentalism that dictates that uh.

Khaybar Khaybar ya Yahud, we must. destroy the Jews not just in Israel, but. around the world. And next up, by the. way, America, too. Death to Israel. Death to America. This is an ideological. conflict. Um and there are other players. at play here, too. We didn't talk about. Iran and funding the proxies to destroy. Israel, the little Satan, and America, the great Satan. And so that to me is. fundamental to this problem. And other. other political actors we could disagree. with, we can dispute, and we can talk. about which policy is better. There have. been there Netanyahu hasn't been the. only prime minister of Israel. There. have been other prime ministers with.

different policies. And Israel still. faces genocidal threats and annihilation. constantly from the north, from the. south, from countries all around that. wanted to want to see it destroyed. because it's a Jewish state. As far as. American support for Israel, there is an. academic discussion to be had about the. role of foreign aid to any country. And. I'm curious to continue a discussion. another time with you, Dave, about the. positions of nation-states and the. legitimacy of nation-states and the role. of how we support allies and. adversaries. But as far as the list of. countries, if we want to start with a. priority of who to support or pull.

foreign aid from, there are plenty of. worse countries much more adversarial to. the United States than Israel. And one. could make the argument that Israel. doesn't ask for charity from the United. States, but rather there is a strategic. alliance that America benefits from in. supporting its only ally in the region. because they share the same enemies. So, one can have that discussion. That's an. academic discussion. And there are. plenty of pro-Israel people that are. anti-foreign aid, too. There have been. super pro-Israel Zionists who didn't. want Israel entangled with other. countries and want to have full. sovereignty and believe Israel's. sovereignty is compromised by accepting.

foreign aid. And that's kind of a. separate subject. And I think to. conflate being against foreign aid to. Israel with other hostility or. anti-Zionism isn't necessarily fair, either. But at the end of the day, the. fundamental issue that Israel is facing. is an ideological one from its enemies. that want to see it destroyed much more. than they want to see a free prosperous. Palestinian state. They want to see a. non-Israel exist. Um okay. I I you know, let maybe I could. start with kind of a point of agreement. there on the last thing you said. I. mean, it's certainly not the case for.

the majority of Palestinians. But there. are certainly groups like Hamas, um who. I do think you're right basically at. this point. Like things have gotten so. bad that this death cult has kind of. like risen up. And I do think they just. want to destroy um Israel more than they. even want something for their own. people. They're clearly very willing to. sacrifice their own people. And it's. terrible. At the same time, because I. don't solely put myself in Israel's. shoes, I can't just go. Look, I got two little kids. And if. someone ever did anything to one of. those kids, there is no level of evil.

that I wouldn't stoop to. I mean, like I. I'm capable of doing very, very evil. things if anyone ever hurt one of my. little kids. I mean, like I could do. something to the kids of the person who. did that to me. I could go to very, very. dark places. And so, yes, basically this. conflict has gotten so bad on both sides. that. it the Palestinians are stuck as Daryl. Cooper put it as Daryl Cooper put it, who's one of the best minds on this. topic, by the way. Hamas essentially celebrates losing.

It's like a sick death cult. But this. didn't arise out of nowhere. And I'll. say just two things I want to say very. quickly, okay? Number one, uh I I don't I reject all. foreign foreign aid. If I could only cut. foreign aid to one country, it would be. Israel. Israel is the first one that should go. Number one, because it's received the. most of it. But number two, as as you. almost. as you you kind of admitted there, we. have the same enemies, right? Why? Why. do we have the same enemies, okay? It's.

because we inherit all of Israel's. enemies. Benjamin Netanyahu came over to. the United States of America in 2002 and. testified before Congress as a regional. expert. And you know what he said, Candace? You'll never believe it. If you. overthrow Saddam Hussein, democracy will. sweep the region. So, I highly recommend. that you go fight a war with Iraq, who, by the way, the neocons, essentially the. Likud vanguard in America, had been. planning overthrowing Saddam Hussein. with Benjamin Netanyahu since the '90s.

You can go read A Clean Break, the memo. from Richard Perle and David Wurmser to. Benjamin Netanyahu about their plan for. overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Not Israel. overthrowing Saddam Hussein, of course. The United States of America. overthrowing Saddam Hussein on behalf of. Israel. Also, in that same congressional. hearing testimony, Benjamin Netanyahu. advocated that the US preemptively. attack Iran. Coincidentally, yeah, we do have all the. same enemies. Look, let me just say this. and I'll I'll finish on this.

All of human there's nothing unique. about Jews or Israel in terms of the. evil stuff that their government's done. I think that the way they founded the. country involved violating a lot of. people's property rights. I think. they've killed a whole bunch of innocent. people. Nothing I wouldn't say about my. own government, as well, you know? And. that's true for lots of governments. around the world. Throughout human. history, there has been. atrocities, genocides, ethnic cleansing. campaigns, slavery, all types of. horrible things. And at every single.

point, there were people who would rationalize. it. Because that's what human beings do. The people are we play tricks on. ourselves. We're very capable of of. coming up with good rationalized. arguments. What Israel is doing to Gaza right now. is simply evil. It is inexcusable. It's. been going on for eight months. Forget. the the. the health ministry's numbers. When this. thing is all over, it's going to result.

in hundreds of thousands of deaths and. displacements. It's going to ruin lives. for generations. And it should stop. All. you really need to do is look at some of. the images of what's going on in Gaza. right now. The only question that should. matter is do you absolutely have to do. this? Does this have to happen? Could. you stop? Is there any other way? And as. soon as you start asking that question, you'll realize that yeah, there actually. could be a lot of other ways to handle. this. I do want to also say I really do.

appreciate like the spirit of this. debate. I know that you know, we're both. pretty passionate about it. But a lot of. the. for some reason that you know, the topic. of Israel is a very um. I don't know, Candace. Have you noticed. it's a little bit of a hot button issue? Yes, and that's why I was like I was. very happy to have you guys back because. I just feel like we've had productive. discussions. And I do I want to just. really commend Amie because he's coming. into this knowing that first and. foremost, I tend to agree more with Dave. Smith. And he was still willing to do. it. And what here's what I always say. In terms of any person who's pro-Israel,

I respect people the most that will get. out there and debate their ideas. It is. like the reason why I respect Dennis. Prager, even though I had disagreements. with him, he will go out there and he. will actually debate what he believes. people that won't debate what they. believe that you should never listen to, okay? You should never. so much. Oh, wait. Ooh, sneaky, sneaky. These comedians are just telling a joke. And the last thing that I want to say. and and just to in now to interject my. opinion and where I come at this, you. know, I became very well known for being. a person that stood up to my own.

community when Black Lives Matter became. the prevailing ideology in America and. everyone was sort of calling everyone. racist who didn't support this. corporation. And I challenged Black. Americans to go, "Hey, first and. foremost, you're an American. Don't let. somebody pigeonhole you and tell you. that you are black and you therefore. must defend these certain things that. don't really make sense." And I want to. say to Jewish listeners the same thing. I know that in school I was. propagandized to see myself as a black. person, to think about slavery as a. horrific sin, and to always therefore. have an emotional response when anything.

was happening to a black person. But at. the moment that they are able to instill. in you a fear, no matter how rational or. irrational it is, they're able to. control you. And so, to my Jewish. friends, I don't think of you as a Middle Eastern. foreign nation that you are required to. defend. You aren't. You simply aren't. You are an American first. You are. allowed, of course, to critique Bibi. Netanyahu, to critique what's going on. there. And you are certainly not. required to defend death because you. have some fear that perhaps was. instilled in you to believe that if you. don't, it's going to represent some sort.

of existential crisis and suddenly. they're going to wipe you out of you. know, New York and LA and Boca Raton and. all the other places that I go with my. Jewish friends. It's just not going to. happen. And I I just come at this for I. don't want to be involved in any of. these foreign conflicts. If you do feel. a closeness to Israel, if you are. Israeli, there are people whose family, like you said, grew up in Israel and. that is the reason why you feel so. attached to this issue, then more power. to you. You should also be allowed to. speak about what you want to say. You. should never feel feel fearful in any.

city in America saying that you want to. support Israel. That would be completely. wrong. And to the extent that that is. happening, you will always have my. support. And I hope that what everyone. listening to this has learned from today. is that what this country needs is more. speech, not less. You're going to agree. with Dave some. You're going to agree. with Amie some. What we can all agree on. is that, you know, I'm better looking than both of them, you know? And you should just keep. watching my podcast and my show for that. reason. Gentlemen, thank you so much for. joining me. And I wish we had more time. to do this. But I've got I've got a sick.

daughter. So, I've got to I've I've got. to go take care of her. Thank you. I know how that goes. Thanks, Candace. Thanks, Amie. Thank you so much.