Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg (Full Episode)

What is up, Daddy gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call. Her Daddy. Pen Badgely. Welcome to Caller Daddy. Hello. Um, I'm so happy you're here. So, you said this isn't normally what you. would wear. Is this what anyone would. normally wear? No, that's what would you. usually be wearing? I mean, just my. clothes. Yeah, like jeans, sweats. Uh, no, no, no. I mean, no. I I I would wear.

I would wear So, I mean, the real answer. I have like three pairs of pants that I. wear that I wear on rotation. Two of. them are in all of the Tik Toks I've. ever made or or any of my podcast. I. mean, it's just there's green pants and. there's gray pants. Okay. Everyone that. follows you is the gray pants. I know. the green pants. All I So, I think I got. them right before the pandemic. This is. this is true. And then you know. fatherhood pandemic the fact that my job. I'm never wearing my own clothing when. I'm working. I mean and you know what.

they are? They're J Crew unpaid. I. wouldn't ever. J Crew but I'm not a J Crew boy at all. But they're just pants you know. Okay. I. love that pants. Um your wife is. pregnant. Yes. With twins. Yes. Are you. ready? Who could be this? Um yeah. As ready as we could be. When. you found out that you were having. twins, what was the reaction and. emotion? Really got to stretch for this.

coaster here. I know. I'm like I I. [ __ ] up. I'm trying to No, I [ __ ]. up. I [ __ ] up. It's okay. It's okay. Okay. Okay. Reaction. Well, so my wife. is a doula. So So birth is a big part of. our world. You know, for me, uh, 38-year-old man, I think I'm. probably, you know, I happen to be birth. is just, it's like it's in my, you know. what I mean? So, so actually, when we. thought we were just going to have. one, and we were close to being like, no, we're good, you know, we were, we.

were close, then we decided, no, you. know what, let's let's try it. And. um I think we thought maybe one would. be you know we know what it is. We have. two. We're surrounded by children and. people who are having children. That's. just kind of I think it was like we knew. like yeah it's going to be a. lot but it's it felt like a known. quantity and then it was just it was.

like oh oh this is how it will be very. new. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah. adding two. Yeah, you guys are you guys are going to. do incredible, but you're brave. Yeah. No, I mean it's it's as it's it's it's. great. I mean, actually, to be honest, like when we see the sonograms right. now, seeing them together. So, first of. all, as an only. child, you know, it's very touching to. see them already so together. They're so. together. They're just like there is one. shot of them where they look like they. were just hanging out in a hot tub cuz.

they both were like up like this. Or at. least in the sonogram. I don't know. which direction was north or south here. cuz you know it's its own world but they. looked like they looked like they were. just you know they were sitting across. from each other just like talking [ __ ]. just sort of like twitching you know I. mean it's and they're they're in a. different position every time we see. them. What do you think is your best dad. quality currently? What comes to mind is. listening and then and then saying I'm. sorry. You know, those are two things. that I.

think fathers are. not, you know, when men are getting a. lot. of [ __ ] Um, and these days, when are. they not, am. I? Um, but you know, men can be good. people. They can be great people. They. can be great dads. Dads can be great. We. sh We And unfortunately, there are. enough of us who have shown us. otherwise, right? But fathers can be. great. And and I. think but what we do.

not attribute to a father much I think. is saying something like I'm sorry and. like really listening and like you know. what I mean? Yeah. I think that's like. almost like baseline people are like oh. no just like go to your mom if you have. a mom because like the dad's not going. to listen. So I think it's like nice. that you're acknowledging. I'm trying to. be opposite there just just in those at. least I mean look there are other things. that I do. It's not like I can only. listen and say I'm sorry. Um, that would. imply I'm just constantly messing up. And I know I'm like, damn, you're just.

constantly saying I'm so sorry. I'm so. sorry. I hear you and I'm sorry. Um, that's also what you have to do to your. wife. That's whenever I whenever I'm. having a problem with my husband, he'll. be like, what was I even thinking? I'm. so sorry. I love you. I've learned. better. I like, what was I even. thinking? That's a nice Um, okay. Your. podcast obviously focuses on people's. like middle school experiences. So, I. kind of want to like go back a little. bit today with you. Let's go back to. yours. How would you have described. yourself as a kid? That's actually I've.

thought about this. I'm not sure exactly. how I saw myself. I think Well, what I. can be sure about is that I was in that. particular period of 12, 13, 14. I was a. bit horrified by. like I very very very self-conscious. very extremely self-conscious about. what? I mean, probably mostly the way. that I looked and then also the way that. I sounded. So, those are the two, you. know, how did you sound? Well, before my. voice changed, like anybody, I had a bit.

of a high and nasly. voice. Um, and so also I moved to LA to. become an actor when I was 12. So, I was simultaneously. pursuing, you know, this career and I. mean, I had no idea what I was getting. into, but I think that made me self-conscious. So, I mean, everybody I think a lot of. people go through this and a lot of. times it's just it just is what it is. I. was I was pretty chubby and and there.

was a period where I was fat, you know, and that happened to have a big impact. on my on the way I felt about myself. It. did. It really did. Cuz did you feel. that way when you were alone or was it a. lot of like people saying things about. you? Because I feel like when you're at. that age, it's always like kids are. going to make you realize that you're. like, "Wait, my parents made me think I. was great." Yeah. Yeah. Well, and for. me, you know, the truth. is like I was a pretty constitutionally. skinny kid and it was this period where.

my parents' marriage was falling apart. We lived we were really isolated. We. lived in the middle of. uh we were on a mountain in outside of a. town called Isiqua in Washington State. Um it might be quite developed now but. in the mid '90s it was not. And uh we. had we had moved very suddenly from the. east coast very far away. So uh so and. my cat died on the third day of moving. there. Just didn't come home. So I was. like eight I think and um and I was just.

you know had no social outlet. the vibe at home was. uh yeah it was you know what happens. when divorce is like quite needed. So. yeah, I was I was sad as as kids can be. I think as many kids, you know, are as. you're kind of coming into your. consciousness, but also I feel like cuz. I talked to my mom about this a lot cuz. she was an only child and her parents. didn't have a great relationship. So I. feel like it makes you grow up pretty.

quickly because you are like it's almost. like you're one in three adults. It. feels like immediately. Yeah, that's. that's that part definitely like not. normal. Yeah. Well, or I mean it's. normal for you don't know it's not. normal. Yeah. So being an only child. from your experience growing up like. what how would you have described your. relationship with your parents? That's. an interesting question cuz I. cuz from 12 years old on my. memories feel a bit void of parents even.

though my mom was present. Um, I mean, I. moved with my mom to to LA. Like, in. fact, when I visit here now, you know, it's just. it's surreal when I'm in places that I. used to be when I was very young, you. know. So, you moved when and your. parents got divorced around the time. that you moved here for acting? Mhm. And. did your dad stay? Yeah. And your mom. picked up and left with you? Yeah. I. mean, a lot of actor kids, this is the.

case because like why is a kid gonna. truly pick up and leave with one parent? like what's you're not leaving like a a. flourishing family life behind. So yeah, that that tended to be the pattern. Is. there like. a core memory that comes to mind when. you think about like a moment from your. childhood where you remember being like, "Oh, my parents don't have the. healthiest relationship.". Yeah. I mean, it is so early. So early.

I don't even know. When I was 14, I I I. saw my. um my parents dance together. This long. after they've been divorced. Uh it was at a function for a show I was. on. It's like a. um and they danced together for one song. and they and they and they sort of. hugged and they but what it was it. demonstrated a closeness that I didn't.

realize until years later when I was. like why do I remember this and think. about it every now and then you know. like and because it made me. uncomfortable. It made it it made me. feel a type of way that I couldn't. identify. Um but that is to say they demonstrated. a closeness that I had like ne you know. never seen them them have you know. they're two people who they came. together. like who you know their parents and the. parents like they're they're a.

generation where like they didn't have. they had so little modeling of. like not only did they not have modeling. they didn't have um like the. consciousness that we have now around. you know relationship dynamics like. listening and I'm saying I'm sorry, you. know, like they was these things didn't. exist. Um, you know, they just they like. it's amazing that they stayed together. long enough to have me and that they. were like, "Yeah." And also, let's keep. doing that. Like I don't I you know, it.

all they don't have a good answer for. it. They Yeah, that's really interesting. about the dancing thing because I feel. like I've talked to people before who. are like I literally cuz obviously you. either replicate or try to do the. opposite of what you watch your parents. do from a young age. So for you to like. watch a form of intimacy at 14 years old. and be like what are this is so strange. to watch them dance and like hug and be. cordial. Like when you were younger, did. you ever have romantic relationships. that you felt comfortable being overly.

affectionate? Yeah. Well, actually, so. this is um I think at least for boys. I. don't I don't. know. I know that it's not just me. I. mean, I actually was because I was. starved. for many kinds of intimacy. The one kind. that. I. understood didn't understand it. was sexual and romantic intimacy. So I. mean I think as soon as those.

um I was going to try to think of a word. other than juices but you know those. chemicals were flowing um that's that's. uh that's when I just craved that cra I. mean you know and again show me a. teenager who doesn't really I mean I. think It's of course quite typical, but. I think particularly for for people who. grow up in homes where there isn't a lot. of intimacy. I think what they crave is. that, you know, you crave what you see. on the in the notebook or whatever. We.

didn't have that then, but you the. Titanic. You know, I'm not a a romantic. movie or romantic comedy person at all. You'll think you are. But but see, but. the Titanic or No, it's a Titanic, isn't. it? It's not the Titanic. Titanic. Titanic. Um, like I loved and I didn't see it a. bunch the way everybody did, but I just. thought like like good good lord I. wanted that you know that you want you. love comes in so many forms so many. forms and it's actually tragic for us.

all that we have conflated it so. completely with just sex. But you know I. mean from a very young age that's what I. wanted. I think that also makes sense. because because you didn't have anything. like that at home, then I think once you. taste it and you like feel it, okay, we're these are the juices, right? Let. me just go ahead and reach over here for. my tea and bring it on the long trip. around. Bring the [ __ ] But I think then. once you probably felt that, you're like. going to crave it because it's like I.

can't get any of that at home. Whereas. maybe someone like was like, "Okay, I've. seen it. I know it's out there again. where once you found this is I'm going. to go right there. I want that thing. Yes. You know. Yes. Yeah. Now being a. father, I'm curious if there were any. like behaviors that you witnessed as a. kid in your house that you are never. want your kids to experience. Yeah. Well, it would be just the it. would be the. [Music]. um the vibe the the just.

the saying call it coldness. I feels a. bit unforgiving to my parents. It's It's. not cuz it that sounds like there's. um intent behind it, you know, and. awareness, but it just uh just uh there. wasn't a lot of life at home. That. wasn't a lot of life. But I get what. you're saying. I also think it's like as. you get older, I'm sure you've realized. like it's weird when you have resentment. of your childhood and then as you become. a parent, so I've heard it's like, "Oh, wow. They were they were really doing.

the best that they could." And it. doesn't mean that you didn't experience. what you experienced, but it also puts. more in perspective. Like it wasn't so. [ __ ] personal sometimes. I can't. speak for everyone's experience. Yeah. I. mean, yeah, there's of course plenty of. nuance in there, but the basic principle. you're pointing to is what I was saying. like that's all it is is like you're. constantly as a parent, you're. constantly being brought in touch with, oh, that yeah, I I didn't have that. I.

mean, you know, I've said this elsewhere. a few times. Um, uh, but the first time. that I needed that I felt that I needed. to say I'm sorry to my now four and a. half-year-old, I think he. was three, maybe freshly three. Um, it. was a minor moment. He would not get in. the car seat, as any parent knows. And. anybody who hasn't has kids is like, "Oh, shut up about the [ __ ] car. seats." Yeah. Is it really? Yeah. It's. like, yeah, it can be hard. It's a.

battle. It's really And by the way, it's. reasonable for them to not want to get. in a car seat. They're strapped in. They. can't. And if they think it's going to. be two hours, like to them, that's a. lifetime. That is a lifetime. You see. how many phases a kid a three-year-old. goes through in two hours. You want them. to sit strapped in the entire time. I. mean, so I'm with three-year-olds on. this, but I had to get him in and I and. I started to get impatient, you know, go. figure. And. um but the key thing to remember or for.

me. like fatherhood, parenthood until about. two and a half, it was. like in terms of losing my patience like. it didn't happen. It didn't happen. I'll. lose patience with my wife. Hi baby. Sorry. Um but uh love you so much. Um, but with a kid with with with a. child that small, I mean, they're just. like, what are you going to do? So, I.

noticed that I was losing my patience in. a way that was like I was speaking to. him in a way that I'd never spoken to. before, which is kind of short, you. know, like a little dickish, you know, I. mean, he let's not talk about his. behavior, the dick of the century, okay? He was being crazy, but he's allowed to. be. You got to keep it together. You're. the adult. Yeah. So, so I was starting. to like I was starting to take it like. as though he's not three. And that's. what we all do as parents. Eventually, you lose perspective and you're like. treating them like somebody who's much. older. And that's not fair. That's not.

fair to them at all. Um, so I was being. really impatient with him getting him. into the car seat. I don't at this point. I don't remember what I I I think I. definitely wasn't being like, you know, I wasn't doing that. That's a bit rough. But I was speaking in a way that was. just, you know, not as loving dad as you. usually are. And then I and then I think. I realized it as I was doing it cuz it. was a new thing. Um and and I just. said, "I'm.

sorry. I'm being really impatient with. you, aren't I?" And then he just. went, "Yeah.". And it immediately. broke. And I and I said, "You're right. I don't like the way I was speaking to. you." You still have to go in the car. seat. Yeah. And I was like, "But you. still got to get in the [ __ ] car. seat." No. No. No. Oh my god. No. It was. really It was like he relaxed. So real. though. Buckled them in and you guys.

went on your journey. Yeah. See, but. when this happened, I realized like, oh, you know, in terms of my mom, like she probably I don't I don't know. I'm not sure. But certainly in terms of. my father, I think. I just just their generation, the way. they parented all of us, I was just. like, "Oh, that was new." You know, me. apologizing to a three-year-old as his. father. Like, I was like, "That's new.". Right? You're like, "I taught myself.

that." Well, my dad never taught me. that, right? And that was a beautiful. moment. That was like, you know, that is. beautiful cuz it means you're like. changing gener generationally what. you're going to now instill in your kid. And then if he ever has kids, he. hopefully will do that. Yeah. In our. hectic, fast-paced lives, we could use. some slowing down. Hogand is made to be. savored and enjoyed slowly for a moment. of slow that's just a freezer away. Introducing new Hogenaz's Belgian waffle.

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of taste and texture. And now my mouth. is actually watering. So I'm going to. need to head to my freezer after this. It is time for a cone break. Savor your. moment of slow with new Hogand's Belgian. waffle cones available at retailers. nationwide. You though talking about going at 12. years old to Los Angeles with your mom. I feel like whenever people think about. actors, you sharing, you know, you're. like, I was chubby. I was going through.

it. My voice like I was insecure. Then. people would be like, so what the [ __ ]. are you talking about? Then you become. an actor. Like people associate like. actors who like love the way that they. look and like to look at themselves. It's like a lot of vanity, but then I. feel like in a beautiful way. What do. you mean? What are you talking about, pen? No, but you know what I'm saying? Like, and then I think the beauty of. having podcasts like this is like you. learn things about most people get into. the arts because it's a way to like find. themselves. Totally. A lot of times. people pour themselves into it cuz.

they're running from something else. Absolutely. So, when you go to LA, were. you still quite insecure? Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the insecurity hadn't. even really found its full expression. until I moved here because I was 12. And you know, I hadn't yet started. making money in a in a in a in a. livelihood, a practice, a craft that. would come to depend more and more on. the way that I looked. How did you even. get into acting? So, when we moved to.

that mountain outside of a Siqua, having. lost my cat, wasn't enrolled in school. because it was the end of the school. year. So the sum the long summer was. ahead of us. Um again parents like not. the tightest uh. uh my mom clearly saw like ooh this is. we need something you know we need like. neighbors our our our closest neighbor. was a mile away like our our our um.

driveway was like two dirt tracks up the. it was like a real mountain. That's why. the cat died. There's cougars and bears. and all kinds of Yeah. And you're an. only child, so you're sitting in a. house. Your parents are basically mid. divorce. You got no cat. You're not. feeling too good about yourself. Yes. Thank you. Just just to remind you. Thank you. No, putting all awful. And then we need to find pen something. to do for the summer. So. auditioned. I don't know what the.

competition was like. No memory of that. I got the role. Winthr a music man. It's. it's a significant role. He's a boy with. a lisp who's very quiet and shy. I was. very quiet and shy. Um, but he comes out. of his shell when he learns to I play. something in a in a band. Um, so I loved. just the. camaraderie of and mixed stages too, you. know, it's like kids and adults and. everybody in between and it was it was. just. like is not like going to school at all.

It was it was really really exciting. It. was um and on opening night just getting. that feedback you know the excitement of. being on stage you know it creates. stakes and structure which everybody I. think needs a bit of to thrive like. um I loved it. I loved it. I actually. said that night like I want to do this. for the for the rest of my life. you. know, that little boy was not aware of. all the implications or what it would.

take or that it was even that it was. ever feasible, that it was actually. delusional and like basically not. feasible. Um, but yeah, so and and. people very quickly and why they do. this, I don't know. But if you're in any. town close to like a major city like a. satellite for LA, like there's Seattle, there's there's Florida, like Tampa. A. lot of kids come from Florida. There. other places, maybe Chicago, but if. you're in a certain town, people will. say you should try going to LA. I mean, it's not good advice. It's just not good.

advice. Are you going to make it? You. did. Are you going to Yeah. What's the I. mean, it's I'm not You're like, I'm the. 1%, Alex. It's a But this is the thing. though. It is to a degree a fluke. It. just is. You think I'm not saying. there's no talent involved. I'm just. saying those of us who make it are. something of the exception that proves. the rule because the rate of failure in. this town is high. It's high. It's high. It's it's a bit tragically high for. people who want to make art and want to.

do things, want to perform. And it's. like, you. know, it's to me it's not just it's not. a meritocracy. You know what I mean? I. don't know what industry would be. But. when do you think you started making. money off of it? I I know when I did. I. was 12. Oh, really? I started working. that summer. Off of acting? Yeah. Was. there a point in your life where you. turned into the bread winner for your. family? Yeah, very early. How early? 15. How did that shift? I mean, so not the. whole family. Um, and I wasn't I mean, my mom was fully capable of working, but.

she needed to be present. So, it was. like this dynamic. I mean, I was. financially. independent by 15. I wasn't always the. bread winner and but but but then you. know by the time but like I've always. I've always needed to and wanted to uh. provide support for my parents since. then. Yeah, that's really nice. I feel. like you then kind of from what I've. researched like you went on to really do. a lot of like the awkward nice guy roles. like pretty consistent. When has that. stopped? I guess it hasn't stopped until.

you became a murderer but he's an. awkward nice guy. Okay. Yeah, that's. actually fair. There's kind of a through. line even though he's a [ __ ]. psychopath, but that through line is. like pretty consistent, right? That's. fair to say. Were you looking for those. roles or did they naturally just come to. you because it's a little bit of who you. are? Who wants to be? No. Well, so, so here's the thing. That's true starting at 20 years old. So, I had eight years.

of near financial independence. professional work. I was working. I was. tired of television by the time Gossip. Girl came around. I famously said or I. don't know famously, but I've said many. times, you know, I initially turned the. role down and I didn't and I didn't just. like kind of turn it down. I mean, I I. said I said, "So grateful you thought of. me. Wish you well, but no thanks." And. they went on to try and cast the whole. thing and cast Dan and and they and they. and they evidently could cast everybody. but but but Dan. But.

so, you know, by the time the point is. not about Gossip Girl. The point is that. by the time I was 20, I was like I was. feeling real disillusioned and dried up. and tired of being in Hollywood of. acting. I've been doing it my entire. since I was 12. When you're 20 years old. and you've been doing something. professionally since you were 12, that's. your life. That's like your whole life. And I was I I was Yeah. I I was you were. done because you didn't like it anymore.

That also I just was not you know I came. real close really close to like a number. of great roles in these great. independent films and I wouldn't get. them. Um, and I was like, "Okay, great.". But you know what? This is not I I. really wanted to try my hand at music. That had been my passion since, you. know, but the point is I was real. uh I I I had I had. an a tiredness about me at 20 that I.

think is not typical for a 20-year-old. because I've been working for so long, you know? Well, I feel like every time. I've talked to like child actors, that's. something. that is lost, I think, in in the way. that we look at these young kids. Like, I always look at like Lindsay Lohan. I'm. like, it's incredible how long she. worked while all of us were like picking. our noses and like being in school and. like doing [ __ ] nothing essentially,

but like just being a child. And so to. have worked your whole youth and then. into adolescence and then all of it like. I'm sure you're like I never want to. work another day in my life. I'm so. exhausted when you were supposed to be. having fun. You were working. But then. to turn down Gossip Girl is like what. now we know what a success it was. But. at the time like were you also. uninterested in the role that you were. going to play or was it just cuz you. were like I'm so [ __ ] tired. I don't. want to do this anymore. with all due. respect and I mean I told the creators. this at the outset so it's not and it's. not no shocker like I was not interested.

and and that's you know that's just I. think that's fair to say that's that's. fair to say. um that's what I have to say about that. okay so obvious you can ask me more but. you obviously ended up changing your. mind so like what changed. well I was close to broke although that. was Uh, I was looking forward to like. figuring that out. Um, I'd had a pretty spartan year behind.

me, you know. I was like I I. I was enjoying my way of life. Um, but the future was real unknown. And. I. think, you. know, it's not like I could go live with. my parents. for there's the stakes. the stakes is. high, right? So, and you know, a few.

people I mean, my manager certainly. spoke about it in a way that he thought. it was a good idea. [Music]. Um, few key people close to. me and then it was it was New York City. getting to live in New York City where. I've now lived since and which is my. home and I'd always wanted to live. there. Uh, you know, you also think about a. show like.

that. It's hard to grow beyond. it. I'm going to be 40 next year. Wait, I'm 30. You lose track at some point. I'm eight. Am I 38? I'm think I'm I'm. 38. Uh, so I'm going to be 39 this year. Next year I will be 40. I will still be. answering questions about this show I. decided to do when I was 20. You know. what I mean? And whatever that is what. it is. Like certainly that's fine. But.

um it's it sets you on a certain track. that you have to in a sense resist. You. have to learn how to work with it, interface with it. Otherwise it just. sort of takes you on its ride. Um, so you know, you're you're kind of. playing you're taking a huge risk, I. think, in a way actually. You know, if. if it's going to set you up to do only. some things and you're going to have to. fight to try and do other things, you.

know, I think that's so understandable. for people. Like I get I think people in. this industry really get that and I. think people that are consumers don't. see that whatsoever. They're like, there. are going to be people that watch this. and then are like, pen, what the [ __ ]. are you talking about? You on the. biggest show in the world. Like, I will. forever love you. Like, oh my gosh, that. show I rewatch every year. But to you, I. think a lot of actors understandably. have that where like you don't want to. be typ cast into this like one thing.

that people think of you as cuz then you. want to you want to keep growing. Yeah. You Yeah. You want to have some autonomy. and you sign. So, also signing on to a. television show, what you do is you have. to sign a six-year contract. There's no. other way to do it. You don't, you know, you haven't seen any of those scripts. You're just like, "All right." So, you. know, Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah. I mean, I chose to do. it because it felt like it could be an. exciting new. experience and and I'm Yeah. No, I mean,

look, I'm grateful for it now. It took. but it took some time cuz I cuz keep in. mind I started in a place where I was. like tired, disillusioned. I was. literally compared to the others like. oddly I was like a veteran you know and. I was just kind of like here we go this. [ __ ] show. I mean I'd done like four. series before that you know. Okay. Something that I love though is I think. what we and this is goes past acting is.

like there are stages in your life where. you have to have time to step away from. it to have any bit of love and respect. for what you did at that time. There are. people that look back at what they did. in high school and they're like actually. [ __ ] stab me and kill me before you. even bring that up. Please look away. But then all of a sudden you look back. and you're like, "Oh, wow." Yeah. With. now more perspective and time, I like. look back and I can see positives from. that. So, let's pay a little bit of, you. know, respect to Dan. Yeah. Yeah. We'll.

go back to the childhood. I mean, how. long we got childhood? No, no, no. We're. going to go back to We're going to get. into trauma. We're all of it. Dan's. going to be a breeze. Dan is literally a. breeze. You're going to be like, let's. talk more about Dan Humphrey. Roffus. Okay. In what ways did you relate at all. to Dan Humphrey? I mean, it's not that. hard. He's like he's Isn't he kind of. He's not quiet, is he? He kind of was, but then he's TV quiet. Yeah. The same. way he's TV like ugly and poor. He's the. quiet ugly poor kid. Like, okay, guys.

Sure. Sure. Sure. Talk to me about the. sideburns at the time. Oh my goodness. No. If I could have seen in real life. the side of my head, I guarantee you I. would have never. never No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, not just not just like give Dan his. flowers. Let's give Let's give Young. Penn his a little bit of something here, too. You know, you know, in the early. 2000s, it was like it was like bootcut.

jeans with a lowrise waist. Um, there's a there's a look to a. sideburn that I always wanted. Like the. second I could grow facial hair, which. happened to be early, you know, it was. like I I wanted them. And. um it was just an aesthetic thing that's. like you I only see my face from here, you know, I only see just this little. bit of, you know, this little bit of. little bit of contouring. It's like. gives me some age, right? Have a baby.

face. Always wanted to look older. Now, those. sideburns did. Why didn't anybody say. they were so large and thick and and the. width? Well, and by the way, I didn't. like I didn't I didn't like do that. That's the way they are. Yeah. Yeah. But. they were kind of like pronounced cuz. you didn't have a beard. It just because. I had to shave every day on that show, you know? It's like I was never allowed. for gradation or or or a little bit of. growth. So, it's like, look, this is me.

starting to shave here. To the point. though that someone could assume that. they were a prop. Like, you stuck those. bad boys on every day. No, they were so. pronounced. I mean, who allowed that? So. many people allowed that. It looked. amazing. It I definitely focused on it. quite often and like the first season. that [ __ ] was popping. Oh my god. Okay, so we relate a little bit to him. How. are you different than Dan? I mean, in. every way. Yeah. Um, [ __ ] him. We love. Dan. Do you? Um, he went through his.

phases where I would be like, "Lonely. boy, like I do love you now." And then. I'd be like, "Dan, shut the [ __ ] up.". Like, yeah. When he dated Georgina, I. was like, "You're so done in my eyes. I. hate you." Can Can I ask you why? I'm. like, "It's Georgina." And meanwhile, you're like, "Serena, like, I love her. She's great." And I wanted to just Yeah. But then you came back around. To be. honest, I can barely remember those.

story lines. Like there's a lot of them. I'll walk you through them. Don't worry. We got a lot. There's a lot of them. Um, who's worse, Dan or Joe? Well, that's. not I mean, it's. Joe. I'm sorry. Was Was Dan masturbating. in the street and strangling women? I'm. sorry to say it so like pronounced, but. I mean, why do why am I Every was like. he needs to chill. I'm like, no, bro. Bro, you watched it. That's what he. does. Why? Why when I say it is it worse. than watching it happen? The worst Joe.

did or what's his face? Dan. The worst. Dan did was. What's his name? Shut the [ __ ] up. What's his name? The worst Dan did was I. mean he did like We know what he did. What he did was sociopathic just in. terms of being Gossip Girl. Sorry. Yeah. No, actually sociopathic. Can we talk. about that? Yeah. Where were you? What. were you wearing? Where were you. sitting? Or were you standing? What was. the energy in the room when you found. out you were Gossip Girl? I was in the. hair and makeup trailer room. Don't.

remember what I was wearing. JFK was not. assassinated on that day. It was just me. being Gossip Girl. Um, but I remember. just being like, "What the fuck?" Huh? Okay. Like if I'm trying to I'm trying. to math it, it's tough. All right. And we've got a shoot. tomorrow. Cool. Okay. You know, I mean, I found out real late. Real late. You. have to tell. me who you think should have been Gossip.

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whether it's merch, products, or the. next best idea, get on. shopify.com/daddy and make it happen. That is shopify.com/daddy. You have to tell. me who you think should have been Gossip. Girl. It wouldn't have made sense for. anybody. We all wanted it to be Dro. Without a doubt. Yeah, Droto would have. slapped. They needed it to be a series. regular. Sorry. What about Roffus. series regular? That little They needed.

They needed to be one of the core six. otherwise nobody cares. Oh my god. You. get to call yourself one of the core. six. I am. I'm sorry. That's like a. badge of honor. I'm not just the core. six. I'm Gossip Girl, baby. I mean, I didn't write it. It's on. the wall like that. You are daddy. I am. Gossip Girl. These are facts. Okay. Facts. That was just like the promo. right there. Sound bite. Yeah. I just. gave you I just gave you everything you. wanted. You're welcome. Um, okay. Wait. When I interviewed Nate Archabald, aka.

Chase Crawford, he told me that he and. Ed Westwick would like throw these. rooftop parties at their apartment. Did. you ever get invited? And did you ever. go? Did I get invited? Of course. It. wasn't like they were sending out. invites. Yeah. I mean, but I didn't go. much. I was not a partyier. Okay. What. were you doing during your like rise to. fame in New York City? Sitting at home. just Yeah. Um, good question. I just had a different friend circle. Okay. I did. What were you doing? Like,

would you go out? Good question. I mean, didn't go out as as much. Where did you. live? Um, Grammarcy, you weren't going. to One Oak. I did go to One. Oak way after everybody I'd heard about. One Oak a lot. I remember the first. time. Okay. I Okay. I I remember the. first time that I had to pay for a. bottle. And this was years later. Years. years years later, I took somebody out. They really wanted to go out. They're. from Thailand, right? They like they. wanted to party like they saw. And I was. like, "Okay, we'll go." I go to some.

place. I don't even remember the name of. it. I've been to many times. I bought a. bottle and I was like, "I'm sorry. Come. again." What? Wait. Whoa. You know that. meme of the guy being like in the math. just playing like this? I was just like, "So, not only have I been getting free. bottles my whole 20s, completely. unaware, again, we're talking about. upholding the. artifice. This is this is I was just. like, people pay for this this much, and.

you could go to the grocery store and. get a bottle of Grey Goose for like it's. criminal." I I I I was like, "Yeah, I. feel good about not having done this a. bunch." I I mean, stunned me. It stunned. me. I was like, people have to save up. to waste it this quickly. I mean, good. lord. Wait, but did you have people like. as you had from Thailand, did you have. people thinking because of your life in. New York City being this it guy you had.

this access and this lifestyle that you. like weren't living in Gramarcy? Yeah. Certainly for Gossip Girl. Certainly. certainly because. of, you know, the early. 2000s. celebrity city thing. Um, yeah. I mean, I think I think well, look, you know, and Crime River, it's. not a big deal. I'm what I say is as a. witness to it, not as a complaint. But I. think one of the aspects of celebrity. that you deal with constantly is just.

like everybody just thinks you're. somebody you're not. And you know, again, it so that's so I think that's. just always So, how long did you do. Gossip Girl? Um, six years. For six years. You're. living in New York City. You're in your. early 20s. And I feel like a lot of the. character that you were being, you were. kind of had parallels, right? You were. like living in New York City. Sure. You. were also living in New York City at the. time for the show. You were dating Blake.

Lively. you were dating Serena on the. show. Did you feel like you were able to. like separate your actual job from your. reality and actually able to like grow. in your 20s or did it all feel like it. was kind of merged? I mean, that's a. great question because it was it was the. struggle. You. know, the difference. between there are many differences. between film and television. One of.

them is that when you do a film, you do. it once, you know, and you kind of give. it your all. uh and then you move on whe whether you. want to or not, you know, you you you do. um when you do a television show, you. are you're doing it. constantly because of the nature of that.

show and because of celebrity culture at. that time especially it was like you. know I remember like you know suddenly. the influx of interviews being asked. about like I remember doing something. for you know cosmo girl or something. that's a thing right it's not is it is. it oh girl like it's like the younger. version wasn't it like teen vogue was. had just come out you know what I mean. like I remember doing interviews for. those kinds of publications and being. asked about like you know dating advice. or like by the way like think I've been. on one day in my life. Like spent most.

of my time just sort of either in a. relationship or not. Um and I remember. just the feeling. of not. knowing. It's it's but it is this this. it's this thing you feel like you're. constantly even though no one may be. actually asking you to do this you feel. like you're constantly needing to. prove yourself in some manner otherwise.

what are you doing I mean you you you. know what is what is the space this you. know this kind of thing has evolved over. the course of however long you know but. we didn't have podcasts like this back. then where you could explore things at. at length and depth you know they were. looking for a quick sound bite and it. was just Like it was just like, "Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. All right. Uh-huh." And it's. like, you know, you don't interfacing in. that space can actually feel really.

crazy and you you you you suddenly feel. the need to perform and you're just. like, why can't I just say something. [ __ ] normal, you know? like why can't. and so what starts to happen when you're. in this one role for a long time the the. you know the aspect of celebrity being a. a part of it a huge part of it there. there is not enough separation I think. for anybody you're seen as this person. you're called their name out on the. street.

um you also constantly have to be that. person at work. um and I was 20 I was 21 22 so like I. didn't have the emotional maturity to. understand to how to differentiate. myself just in terms of. selfworth like what people seem to think. of Dan seemed to be what people thought. of me and now I had enough sense enough. intelligence enough selfworth enough. just you know like I wasn't like losing. myself but it bothered me well and I. feel like that makes a lot of sense too.

because even as you're saying that I'm. thinking about like very specific people. could look back at their time in like. Hannah Montana for example That is the. biggest mind [ __ ] for Miley where it's. like you're playing yourself but you're. secretly a pop star and then you. actually become a pop star. Like you. guys were playing these characters that. were actually physically living in New. York City and it wasn't like you guys. were like superheroes. It was it was. like an actual thing that people could. believe. You're like excuse me Dan. again. Gossip girl [ __ ] But like you. know what I'm saying? It's like people.

it's easier to believe the Friday Night. Lights characters and the Wentry Hill. characters. like those were just normal. characters that people could believe you. are as opposed to this like you're. playing a doctor. I guess even still. Ellen Pompeo was like people went into. [ __ ] surgery because of me. But like. people merge it too much and so when. you're walking and you're like am I more. like this or am I this character? It can. get [ __ ] confusing. Definitely. How. did you approach your dating life in. your 20s? Okay. So, going back to what. we said earlier about.

uh. uh that need for intimacy and really. wanting a love that transcends the body. truly. I mean, that's what we all want. But, um never had an approach. I I I'. I've had a handful of long. relationships and that's that's about. the extent of it. You know, I really did. not date. Uh tried found it. not what's the word? I don't even know.

I mean, fulfilling, satisfying, I don't. know. It just I was not good at what. felt like dating is. Um, dating is a bit. of a performance, I think, right? Isn't. it? Like, I mean, it's just initially. like that's and I think that just like. really stressed me out. Um, I never had an approach. So trying. to like I I. really longed for that kind of. connection, that kind of. intimacy. Uh I think just as anybody.

else, you know, kind of something that. my show You has been about, which is. like the the the really toxic. misconceptions we have like modern love. mythology, the way that a relationship. should be, the way that you should feel. um like it does to watch Titanic. You. know what I like that like so I so I. wanted that and. so it's. so I also had a very long and difficult. relationship in my teen. years.

Um that marked me and I actually. remember thinking when I got out of it. at 19 I was just like that was a way to. start it all. I wonder what effects it's going to have. on me, you know? I wonder. So, I um but. then I found myself in my 20s, three. different long-term relationships. The. third one was with my wife, and it's, you know, Can we talk a little bit about. modern dating culture cuz I know, like. you're kind of saying, you have. obviously very strong opinions. I I.

don't know any The truth is I don't know. anything about what it's like actually, but I can only speak as a person who. hears about it. You know what I Casual. dating. Yeah. What do you feel about. that for people? Here's a platform upon. which to skewer yourself. No, just go. Sure. Call Her Daddy is brought to you. by Tinder. Have you ever seen someone on. Tinder that really stands out to you? Like, oh my gosh, this person is such a. catch. Now, with Tinder's first.

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Is it ever casual? Show me somebody who. really really. truly is casual about. it. I'm I'll. wait. I'll. wait. Not that they act casual about it, that they feel casual about it. I'll. wait. Please. I would like to see it in. the comments. I think that some women. would ask back to you, Pen. Mhm.

I wish he didn't feel like it was. casual. I'm telling you that he doesn't. understand the ways in which it is not. casual for him either cuz he may just. actually be like, "Oh, I don't like. you." What about that? That whole thing. Yeah, that's Sorry. So, I you know, I am. sorry to women on that one. I I can't. apologize for men, but I'm just saying. like that is that is the whole. like What is that too? like he's just.

not that into you. That whole thing that. like what that Okay, so if I if I. venture something. here, one of the reasons I I didn't like. dating was because of what it seemed. like young, you know, young men, boys, men need to sort of how they need to. behave and act, which always felt real. corrosive and toxic and coarse and. just callous. Um, at a very young age, if I'm.

representative of anything that can be. generalized, it. seemed that it was important and. necessary for me as a man to like, you. know, it's a such a dumb old term that. so many young people be like, "What did. you just say?" But like, so your wild. oats, you know, that kind of thing. I. don't know what what would what would. you say now? What would you I sound like. an. 80year-old. What What would you say? Wait, say that. again. So, I'm not going to say it. again. You're like, "Okay, say it one.

more time for me, please." And make eye. contact with the camera. Wait, I actually don't know if you said. so. So, your or ones. So, your oats. Your wild. It sounds so dumb. So, your. wild oats when I have to say it so break. it down. So, your wild oats like to to. have sex with a lot of women. That's. probably how they would say it. Sure. To. have sex with a lot of women. With a lot. of women. Yeah. Like they're [ __ ]. around. Yes. Not the oats. It's more. just they [ __ ] around. Well, think of it.

like this. You're a you're you're you're. a gardener and you've got a you've got a. handful of seed and you're just casting. it out into the wilderness. Yes. Okay. Now, see, this makes more sense. Maybe. someone will start saying that in Gen Z. and you're going to trend it back. upwards. Okay. I might have that power. Maybe. Maybe. Okay. So, how do you feel. about casual sex? Not now, obviously. I. know. Again. Again. Show me anyone who's. able to have it truly. And I'm saying. I'm not just saying who does it. Yeah.

Plenty of people do. it. Show me someone who's actually What. about it is casual? What about it is. casual? Again, I'll wait. I think it's a. great question to pose to the girls. listening. Yeah. People obviously like always say. relationships are hard. They're hard. work. They're a lot of work. But what. does that tangibly look like to you to. work on a relationship? I feel like you. have to always be. learning.

new levels. of. listening. because when you get past the, you know, it's anywhere from the 6 months to two. year mark when the the juices, so to. speak, the chemicals have like sort of. run their course, you may have had. something that could be like wildly. intoxicating. In some cases, that's. true. In some cases it may. be less or somewhere in between. but you know studies.

show about 6 to 6 to 24 months that runs. its course. Then you have. to enter into a different kind of. relationship. One that we don't see a. lot you know we don't see it modeled a. lot hardly. ever. Um you know for reasons that have. to do more with like what it takes to. tell a good story than than reality you. know in movies and TV and books and. stuff. So then you have to think to. yourself like well what what is a. relationship for? Not just like what am. I in this for? What is a relationship. for?

Um that's also a question I pose. What. is a relationship for? Not just what is. it doing for you? What is it what is. what are relationships for? you know, um, and at some point I think you just. have to realize that like you you're. developing your own narratives and. biases that have to be kind of. constantly. reshaped, reach, you know, you have to. check in with them. And so it just means. it's just another level of listening. You you know, you and then once you get. into parenting, it's it's it just adds.

like a level of complexity that's that's. really beautiful and and. rewarding. So, you know, when you're when you're. parenting, actually, sometimes it can be. really practical stuff like we have to. schedule time for any kind of intimacy. we want to have. Like, if we want to go. out, that needs to be in that calendar, and you have to find child care, you. have to it's all this stuff. It's like. it's it's very real. Um, and that can. actually be a surprising amount of work. Like because I was going to ask I know. obviously your wife has a child from a.

previous relationship and when you were. starting to date that takes another. level of commitment and stability and. like how did you know that was something. you were ready for? Well, I didn't. And. I mean, I think so like the when we. first met, it was kind of it was. immediate. And before we had time to think, I think. we just we wanted to be together in in. the deepest way. And I wanted to be.

there for her son. [Music]. um in whatever way was best. His. father's always been in his life. [Music]. Um, but then the. cultural dating laws, which I never. abided by, never understood, but you. were pressuring me. I was like, I need. to sew my wild oats. What am I doing. with this woman with a child? Um but you know I was 28 I think maybe.

27 and I really did. think is it right for me you know to be. to be getting into a relationship with a. woman who has a child like that it so. the stakes were always significant. there. We both felt that. And so we both. actually after an. immediate intense connection and like. not thinking about it, we then sort of. like, you know, we need to think about. this. more. And what I only felt that I was.

ready once I felt confident to like. leave all that, all these notions about. what it is to be a man, what it is to. date, what I needed to do, who I needed. to be sexually. Once I was able to start. really leaving that behind. That's. beautiful. I also love like just like. hearing the way that you talk about your. relationship. It's so nice to hear again. almost back to the way that you're. parenting about like listening and. apologizing and doing things that are. like not typically what you would think. like a man is leading with. I think it's.

really refreshing to hear because I know. even you've talked about with your wife. that you guys like early on in your. relationship took breaks and I think. like so much of what you've shared is. quite helpful to people because I know. there's people listening who are trying. to figure it out and I think people. obviously look up to you. So, when. you're more open obviously with what. you're comfortable, I think it's nice to. hear when you are like willing to share. that kind of detail about your. relationship cuz I know that there's. people like, "Holy [ __ ] can I be a good. mother, father to another child?" You.

know what I mean? Yeah. It's it's. um there's a spiritual component to this. which. is really the thing that is that allowed. it to happen. So, she and I, you know, we happen to sort of become sober around. the same time. we were picking up meditation and and. prayer and really trying to. live with a different sort of framework, you know, independent of one another, but this was happening kind of at the.

same time. And I think that was what. even created like the opportunity or the. the conditions for us to be like we're. dealing with a lot of ways of thinking. that are not our own. Some of those ways of thinking are. putting a lot of pressure on. us to conform in a way that we've seen. before to either be together in a way. that we've seen or to not be together in. a way that we've seen. And so and I.

think I think like maybe the world is. ready for a lot of new relationships. like where people are discovering. something. And I think in some way like. we we discovered something. [Music]. uh like if I if I had advice for young. people and it risks being simplistic. You could take it a lot of ways and I. guess it could be misused but like I. think young people now we we waste a lot. of time worrying about relationships. rather than. like being in them and trying. We we.

waste a lot of time in fear and. hesitation and trying to imagine what. the other person's thinking. Like, when. is that ever going to happen? You don't. know. You've never known. Stop trying to. act like you've ever. known. Never once have you read that. person's mind. It's not going to start. now, you know? I mean, like, I don't. know. Just just the way that. relationships function, at least from a. pop culture perspective, I think is like. so crazy. dysfunctional, you know? And like so,

no, it's a good point. It's like. definitely. a it's definitely become something that. I think people almost like aren't even. noticing. And it's like these games and. it's like we we don't have to do any of. that. And I definitely felt like I did. it. I was a part of the cycle. I was. like in it heavy. That's how I literally. started this show. It's just like you. don't say. Yeah. Well, the name Yeah. I. was like, "Oh, we're going to flip it on. its head and we're going to like do what. men do to us." And then eventually when. I met my dad doesn't make them happy.

either. Exactly. And then I literally. met my husband and I was like, "Oh my. god, I'm literally I'm going to call him. daddy." Yeah. No, but not sorry. Not not. enough. Never. I will always scratch. that from the record. Strike it. Strike. it. Take it out. Um I want to talk to. you about you though because I do think. there's a lot of themes in it that are. It's all this kind of Joe is the. embodiment of not realizing any of this. Before we get to that, is it true you. also almost turn this role down? Yeah, it's my thing. Pen, what? Why did you.

almost turn this down? Same reasons, different, you know. Are you overacting? Are we done? Am I overacting? Is this. your retirement podcast? Am I. overacting? Yeah, I I'm um No. I mean, I. think if anything, I've I've I feel like. I'm finally coming of age as an actor. Maybe. We'll see. Well, this is the last. season, so Yeah, but I'm not done. You're going to keep going. Yeah. Okay. So, you you eventually were like, "Yes,

I'm going to do it." Mhm. You said. before that you It was not I should say. it was not such a resolute no. I was. interested in the premise far more. because it was Yeah, it was a different. kind of role. I mean, people love to. draw the similarities and I'm. responsible for drawing some of them. between Dan and Joe, but I mean, they're. not the same. Like I like Joe is the. show. He is the lens through which. everything happens. So, being in that. position is a completely different. experience as an actor. You get to do a. whole lot more. Um, and because. of the depth to which he goes, there's.

just a lot lot more of the spectrum to. to explore as an actor. So, it was a, you. know, I knew it was an incredible. opportunity when I when I saw it. At the. same time, I wasn't sure that I wanted. to give expression to this kind of. character for an undisclosed period of. time. Had it been a film, be like, "All. right, right. 3 to six months done." I. do though, as I was just listening to. you say that though, it just made me. realize like I which is incredible for. you as an actor like I do think this now. is like holding a light to Gossip Girl.

where it's like you now are known. Yeah. You could be on one side of the street. and someone's going to know you as. Gossip Girl and then the other side is. going to be D like uh sorry you. And I. actually feel like that is the hardest. uphill battle to like we were just. saying to do to have people not just. think of you as one character. Now I. just want them to think of me as two. Now you got two. Got to work on three. Then we Dan and Joe. Yeah. Yeah. Now we. need another basic name for the third. Who's the third going to be? Dan, Joe,

and Tim. Tim. Jim. Matt. Matt. I said. Tim, but yeah. Carl. No, that's not. basic. I hate that. That's not um Okay. A huge theme is obviously toxic. masculinity. How have you. approached being a character that is. like completely toxic? I mean, beyond. toxic. Is it a weird headsp space to be. in? Sometimes no. I mean, at this point, like, you know, I'm done, which is. crazy, by the way. Wow.

Uh it became real. easy even early on but easy even the way. like you know you might be a marathon. runner but by the end of a marathon. you're like I'm about to fall over you. know that's the way it was easy it was I. mean he by the end of every season by. the middle of every season I usually had. back problems because all the expression. of rage is just like a lot. Um it was like running Yeah, it was like.

running a marathon. It's highly athletic. every time. Very physical, you know, a. lot of not a lot of speaking on camera. So, a lot of just, you know, coming into. my body, physicality of performance was. really lovely to explore over the years. And uh and then the voice over was. interesting too. Finding that I feel. like I really found it in the sixth. episode of season. 1. Um where that episode was almost all.

voice over and then silent. acting. Um and I actually had a mask of. prosthetics on. uh because he'd been badly beaten at the. end of that of of the previous episode. Okay. So, uh, what was your question? No, I was just asking like, is it weird. to get into this character that's like. really [ __ ] up? So, so, so actually I. would say in some ways it's. quite fun. There's levels to it.

Day-to-day basis kind of fun, kind of. taxing or or it can be very taxing, really interesting moments of stranges. that are fun to. explore. Overall, it's been quite a. quite an. endurance test in a way be- because. because of just the level of commitment. that it takes and then choosing to speak. about him in a way publicly which I. think like just adds a level of. responsibility to the whole thing. So,

you know, it's just it's like it's a. it's a it's a it's a lot. The final. season, do you think fans are going to. be happy with the ending? I mean it's. not without its you know anything is. going to you cannot land a six season or. five five season series you're going to. fumble here and there but I think where. it really matters now unfortunately here. I can't talk about it in a way that's. like more substantive you know.

um because I wouldn't want to spoil it. for you either please don't. um but it's I think it's very satisfying. for a lot of meaningful reasons. Okay, I'm going to end the episode the. same way you end some of yours. If you. could go back and talk to your. 12-year-old self, what would you say? I would want to give him a really long. hug. I would want to. be the the the man, the the male figure, the role model in his life that he he.

somehow did not seem to have like up. until way too late. Um, I want to hold him. first so that you know that that Lady. Gaga Bruno Mars song. It's been stuck in. my head so much. I want to hold you just. for a. while and die with a smile. Okay. Um, maybe you're going to bring the band. back. Yeah. [ __ ] acting. Uh, I would.

love to play music, but you know, I got. to find the right people for that. Um, I. I I would I would hold him just for a. while and and I would have to get back. into the time machine. So then I would. die with a smile. I don't know that I. could say, you know, what a 12-year-old. wants to what a 12-year-old needs to. hear and will actually listen to is not. necessarily what we would say. So I. don't know. You know, I mean, the the. essence of what everyone always says is. basically like it's going to be okay. Like you're going to be okay. And I.

would want to communicate that, but I. don't know how he would hear it. So, I. think I would just hold him and just let. him feel like not only that you're okay, but like this is the point. If you. haven't. if there's anything you're missing, if. there's anything you're feeling a way. that you're hurting, this is the point. You have to learn somehow. Yeah. You. know, it's beautiful. Yeah. Pen, thank. you so much for coming on Caller Daddy. That was truly a pleasure. I appreciate. it. It's really nice podcasting with. podcasters. Yeah, right.

So much easier. 10 out of 10. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. [Music].