Michelle Obama: We Still Go High

What is up, daddy gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper with Call. Her Daddy. >> Michelle Obama, welcome to Caller Daddy. >> Hey, Alex. Look at here. Call her Her. Daddy. I'm here. You don't even know. >> Cool set, too. >> Thank you. It is beyond an honor to be. sitting with you today. How are you. doing? >> I'm doing good. I mean, I'm personally. good. um individually good, feeling.

whole, but you know, the world feels a. little nutty and so there's, you know, that piece of it seeps in in ways, but. I'm happy to be here. >> I'm happy you're here. Um, talk to me. about your outfit. How did you pick it? >> My outfit, this is a Meredith Coupe. original. And as we were thinking about. promotions for the tour, there is a. picture that a lot of people have been. showing of me at Princeton and Meredith.

Coupe had the idea of updating. This is the. >> updated version. >> It's on one of the first pages. I. remember when I. >> one of the first ones and when she. brought it to me, I was like, you are so. Look at this. I mean, isn't So, it's a. redo. It's the next version. >> Oh, that's so good. my campus look 2.0. 5.0. Yeah. Yeah. So, we were like this. is the perfect place to do it with Alex. >> I love it. So, >> okay. I am going skiing soon and I heard.

that you are also a skier. >> I love skiing but I'm kind of putting up. my ski boots. >> You're done. >> I just feel like I am just one fall. away, you know? I because I am like a crazy. skier. Like I can't ski a little bit. I'm like skiing all day. >> Oh, you're going black diamond. >> I go Well, I go black. I don't go double. black. I like blacks and blues. Um,

>> are we doing moguls? >> No. No, not yet. But when I ski, there's. still I'm still the former first lady. with security, so I have sort of a ski. motorcade. So there [laughter]. >> Wait, I'm trying to picture myself. >> skiing down like. >> You can't tell, right? >> No, you can't. No, because the agents. are they're they're blending in, you. know, some are snowboarders and some are. but they're usually in the front and the. back, right? So that no errant person.

just clobbers me, you know? So I don't. really know what goes on behind me when. I'm skiing. I just know we make it down. And I usually I ski with an instructor. I ski in Aspen. Vance is my ski husband. and I miss him dearly. Vance. >> I've skied with Vance for 10 years and I. hope he hears this. I love him. I miss. him. I haven't skied in two years, but. we ski, we made it a motheraughter trip. Um, all every President's Day weekend. for the last 10 years. They're a bunch. of mothers and daughters. We've all.

raised our kids together and we take the. long weekend, go to Aspen and ski. So, yeah. But you're you're done. I just I'm. just worried that you know like I. usually have one fall. You don't need an. injury. You don't need to be in a boot. and then I can't do anything else, you. know, >> and we need you to do other things. >> Yeah. Anyway, so that. >> we need you. Okay. Well, good to know. I. was just wondering like hobbies. I'm a. skier. I'm I'm the similar way though. Like as I continue to get older, I'm.

like I don't want to be hurt from this. I want to enjoy myself, but I'm so. competitive. >> This is the thing. I bet. What do you. Are you Black Diamonds? I'm trying to go. black diamonds. I'll start on a blue. just to like feel something and then I'm. like. >> then you start feeling feeling it and. then you're just like, "Yeah, yeah, no. Let's do that black run. Let's do it.". Or you do it once and then you're like, "Let's do it again.". >> And it's like, "No, it's it's after. lunch you just ate a lot.". >> I always have one run too many. It is. the one run where I say, "I am done.

>> after this run." And then right in the. middle of the end of the run, like I'm. not stopping. Like that foot's not. >> You're getting lazy. >> Getting lazy. And then the form goes. >> form goes and then. when I fall, you know, the looks on. everyone's faces, it's like everybody. has a heart attack. >> Yeah. I didn't even think about that. Like you kind of also have to worry. about all these other people. Like you. said, you everyone's behind you, in. front of you, watching out for you. So. if you're falling, >> how do they feel? And do do they feel. responsible? And it's.

>> sometimes you want to fall and like have. no one seat. You don't have. >> No, everybody's there. Ski patrol, doctors, you know, men with guns. It's. like I'm go I'm good, guys. I'm good. My. god. Get up from there. >> Okay. Well, good to know. I just was. interested in, you know, hobbies. I know. you knit. >> I knit. I haven't been knitting lately. because I've been reading a lot and. reading in prep for our podcast. I'm. reading people's books. So, and I still. like books. So, I don't do audio. And. you if you're holding a book, you can't.

knit. So I'm like really reading a lot. right now. So I haven't knitted as much, but it's still there. It's in me. >> I have been trying to read more as well. I think just especially with the uptick. in social media and the usage and. everything, I just feel so. >> uninspired. And so reading has allowed. me to tap back into parts of myself that. I do miss when I was in education, right? And when you're in school, you're. like taking it for granted. But then. when you leave, you're like, "Wow, what. a what a privilege it was.".

>> Um, okay. So, when I was preparing for. this interview, >> Yes. >> I realized that there were kind of two. ways I could go about it. >> Uhhuh. >> Option one. >> would be more OG call her daddy days. You know, talk some relationships, try. to ask you a couple questions about. >> Barack Obama wants to [laughter] get. reports on. But you said what? >> You're like, it's her show. I don't know.

what we were just talking, >> right? Relationships and sex, which. again, you're right. It would go viral. And poor Barack would be like, why? Literally, of everything I've done, why? Um, but then there's the other side of. this show. >> Yeah. which is option two, which is hard. but important conversations that are. relevant to young women and girls all. around the world. And so as juicy as. option one would be.

>> or not. >> or not actually fair. >> It could have been like that's that. >> I'm like oh [laughter]. um right fair. Um I just thought about. it. like you sitting here today as one. of the most influential and powerful. women in the world. >> It would be too great of an opportunity. not to have you impart your wisdom on. the next generation who is watching and. listening today. >> So, we're going with option two. >> So, I think we're unless you want to go. option one.

>> Just like I think with that setup, you're right. Let's let's go with option. two. >> And to anyone watching, you can all take. a deep breath. This is not going to be. about politics today. This is going to. be about women. Yeah. Which I love. talking about here on Call Her Daddy. So, Michelle, are you ready? >> I am ready, Alex. >> Call Her Daddy is brought to you by. T-Mobile. Okay, Daddy gang. I am starting to think. a night in may actually be the new night.

life. Uh, where am I in my life right. now? Okay, I have been working so much. lately that all I want to do at the end. of a long day is hang out on my couch. There is just nothing better than. getting into comfy clothes, pulling out. some of my favorite snacks, curling up. with Henry and Bruce and Matt. You can. join too, Matt, and doing absolutely. nothing. And on those nights in, T-Mobile has me covered with value that. keeps on stacking up the more I use it.

Like streaming benefits and snack perks. that truly deliver. The math is mathing. With so many perks and benefits, T-Mobile is basically making staying in. a lifestyle. So, you know what? I love. you even more now, T-Mobile. Okay. My. go-to recently has been popping on a. reality TV show, ordering a whole pizza, and hitting next episode all night long. with a side of ranch. Okay. And if you. have T-Mobile like I do, you won't. believe how good staying in can be.

Check it out at t-mobile.com/magenta. Status. Disclaimer: streaming benefits. included while you maintain a qualifying. line in good standing. Okay, so you recently released your. book, The Look. Congratulations. >> Thank you. Thanks so much. >> Beautiful. And on the surface, it. presents like a fashion book, right? >> But it's so much more than that. It is. about your values, uplifting women, building confidence, and we're going to. get into all of it today.

>> But first, I kind of want to set the. scene of how we even got here. You have. talked a lot about how we live in a. world where a woman's appearance and our. bodies are overly scrutinized and. objectified. I'm going to quote you. You. said it is the habit of the culture of. the world to put women in their place by. attacking their physical being. >> Even after you went to Princeton and. Harvard Law School, you were in the. White House doing things like combating. child obesity and advocating for girls.

education. the haters still chose to. focus on your arms and your hair. What. was that experience like for you and how. did you navigate it daytoday and not let. it distract you? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it became um sort of the shock. shock of the reality of that. Um I I I. felt in the the the first year of. campaigning. um you know when Barack announced I was.

hesitant but once I was on board I was. on board and I knew that I needed to be. out there campaigning and introducing. the world not just to him but to us. Um, as the first potential black president. and black family, we understood that. there might be hesitations, mis misconceptions, people who, you know, weren't exposed to. a broad diversity of people. And so, we. knew that it was important for both of.

us to be out there telling our story, helping people understand our values, what we cared about, how we were raised, who our parents were. To me, all of. those stories are what connect us. So, that's what I'm out there doing. You. know, um I'm in Iowa. You know, it. starts out that I'm in people's. backyards and, you know, in church. basement. I mean, it starts out small. because who are the Obamas? I mean, who. are these two, right? So, it wasn't like. people were climbing the walls. I mean,

Hillary Clinton was the favorite in. Iowa. Barack was a distant fourth, but. we worked hard at the grassroots and. understood that we'd have to meet people. in their homes and in their communities. And so I was kind of like not even a. blip on the screen. So I was out there. freely talking and I never had a written. speech. Um I just would usually talk. from my heart and talk about us. And so. slowly things grew and grew and I wasn't. in a backyard anymore, but I was in a.

school auditorium and it wasn't 10. people, it was 5,000 people. Um, and I. think everyone was kind of shocked by. how I was connecting in that way. Um, but I always felt like this is this is. who we are as Americans, you know? I. mean, the one of the best experiences I. had in my life was leaving the south. side of Chicago and going into rural. America and understanding that we're the.

same people. You know, it's like the. food we eat, the things we care about, the way my dad loved his family, the. pride he had in his family, you know, the workingclass nature, his work ethic. People would do that. They just shake. their heads and nod. and what might have. been a I'm not sure about you became a I. know you right and that was the. experience I was having but as my. popularity rose I was being covered more.

right and so the press enters the scene. and there are now reports right and the. first thing after all this great. conversation and connection. the the top of the article would be she. was wearing. you you know, um, not my education, not. my, you know, not not my professional. career, but it started with appearance. and it got worse as. we got better.

So, I understood it as campaign tactics, right? I could separate it out and go, well, this, yeah, this is politics, right? It's like what better way to beat. a moving engine is to try and slow it. down. And so with women, what do we do. with women? We start sort of talking. about their strength and their So then I. became I was angry, not passionate. I.

was a misogynist. I wasn't joking about. my husband and humanizing him, right? Um. I wasn't athletic. I was scar scarily. muscular, [laughter] right? [gasps]. Um, so it it was it was a rolling thing. and I attributed it totally to politics. and I didn't write it off to what people. really thought because I had months and. months of understanding that the people. in those auditoriums and in those school.

buildings and at those speeches they. they understood who I was. Did if that. makes sense. >> It does make sense and I think that's a. great way to look at it, right? because. you're you're able to compartmentalize. essentially that this is the name of the. game. This is how it goes. >> But it still doesn't mean that it's. sexist, right? It's it's it's they're. attacking you for your looks and they're. not doing that to a man. >> They weren't doing that to my husband, right? They weren't describing him.

physically and he was out there more. than I was. So, I was like, "Okay, well, this is where it comes from." It's like, wow, whoever is doing this when it comes. to how we put women in their place, it's. like, okay, you there there wasn't. comment about the substance that I was. saying. It was like, why did she wear. this and was that appropriate? And what. does this mean? And it's all about how. we look. And the more you pay attention. to that, you see it not just happen to. me, [snorts] but even happen to other.

female candidates, other wives, other, you know, other celebrities, other. people in the public eye. Um, so I I. tried not to take it personally and. understand that this was a game and I. definitely didn't want to assume that. this is what America thought. like being. able to separate out what is politics in. media and where people's hearts are. And. I think sometimes we still we struggle.

because the game is still happening. You. know, we're still dividing each other up. when my truth was that no one ever in my. face in any community was unwelcoming. or rigid or close-minded, right? not in person, right? It was all. about what was being fed. So, I didn't. want that to I didn't want that to color. my heart towards this country. Even you.

speaking, right, we're talking about. objectification because we as women. experience that every day and then. you're dealing with with it on the world. stage. I also love it because you have a. pattern of challenging norms and you. refuse to shrink or to conform to the. patriarchy which I love. And in your. book you talk about learning that quote. if you can't beat them work their. fascination to your advantage. It's one.

of my favorite quotes truly because it's. so relatable. Like from a very young age. as women, we learn how to shape shift. essentially and we constantly we have to. it's unavoidable, right? >> Biologically. >> to survive. >> just to survive. >> But that when you're you're talking. about leaning into the fascination, can. you talk to me about how you personally. learn to navigate it and how did you. know Michelle when to lean in. >> and when to pull back? >> That's a that's a good question. Um, I.

think again on the campaign trail and as. in those first months of of of being in. office, um, you know, you just you you. see what's written and you see the, you. know, you look up and there was a whole. website, Miss Zo, that, you know, focused on and this is all it's this was. complimentary. It was exciting. I could. see the fun of it, right? I get it, right? Um, but I kind of thought that I.

I understood that fashion and appearance. for women is so powerful that if I spent. too much time talking about it, maybe. nobody would hear anything else I'd have. to say. And I I came in wanting to say. so much and do so much substantively. I. knew what I wanted to do going in. And. it was interesting. I'd always get the. question leading up to the campaign, well, you know, how how do what do you.

want to accomplish as first lady? And my. first answer was, first of all, I want. to make sure my kids are whole. So, me. being a good mother in this, me and. Barack being good parents in this, like. it didn't mean that we weren't going to. work hard, but if you want to know what. my priority was, like a lot of parents. was making sure that my kids weren't. destroyed by this thing we're doing, that they ended up whole. And I thought. by saying that that that wasn't. controversial. It was just like like I.

we have kids and they've got to go to. school. they have security and so I'm. going to have to focus on that just like. all of us as women mothers do. We're. multitasking and we're doing it all the. time and I was doing it before I landed. there. But it was always interesting and. people would be like well how do you. know what to do in this role? And to me. it was clear that oh my god you you. don't you don't know anything about what. I did before I came here like you don't.

like you know and you don't want to but. I was like well I went to Princeton and. Harvard I mean I practiced law I was an. assistant to the mayor in Chicago I ran. a nonprofit of 501c3 a build I was a. vice president for community relations. at the University of Chicago hospitals I. was a dean of students It was like, "Oh, you guys, I all of that just disappeared. in the course of this whole election and. you now see me as just Barack Obama's.

wife." So that made me say, "What? That. that quickly. my shoes become the most important thing. about me, right?" And again, not unique. to me. It can happen to the best of us. So, I shied away from fashion leading. the conversation, but I knew I couldn't. I didn't completely control it. So, let's lean in. [laughter]. Let's lean in with what we do. Let's.

make sure that we have a plan and a. strategy in place for how fashion, just. like everything we did in the White. House, would have meaning and impact. That makes so much sense because again. in the book you're talking about the now. the behind the scenes of the designers. you were choosing and people that you. were choosing to work with was so. meticulous on your end but speaking. about it you can now speak about it but. at the time I understand it's like I. cannot be reduced to the dress and to.

the shoe and to the hair and the whole. thing. I want people to hear what I'm. actually saying. Um, I have a question. because I think this is pretty. applicable to my audience because it's. tough for women obviously when we're. even talking about fashion. A perfect. example, a young woman is going for a. job interview and she gets the lowdown. Oh, this boss is a full misogynistic. pig. So, she wears the dress instead of. the pants because she is so acutely.

aware and maybe it's subconscious that. if she she leans into her conventionally. feminine aura then she probably will. have a better chance at getting the job. >> But is that okay? Or are we abandoning. ourselves and are we compromising. ourselves? Like what what do we do? You know, look, life is full of. compromises just period, right? I mean, some of what I always say is that. you've got to pick and choose your.

battles. We all do. Um, and the the the. personal question becomes where are you. in life, right? If you're a young woman. that needs a job to pay off her loans. and to and and it's your first job and. you're, you know, you have less leverage. than I do [laughter] as the former first. lady to wear what you want and have this. empowerment and say what you want to do. Like my advice to young girls is f first.

of all, make sure you can pay your rent. um you know and don't make decisions so. rashly when you don't have the leverage. to keep yourself safe right but in the. midst of that you you don't want to. compromise yourself so much that you. lose yourself and you are not safe right. so you may wear the dress because it's. professional and gives you an edge but. then you want to be very careful of who.

this person is that you're now working. for you know and whether so now you have. to be smart it's it has less to do with. what you're wearing but who is that. person and do [clears throat] you trust. him and can you trust him um you you. know women don't have to dress a certain. way to lead on somebody who has. misogynistic you know a lot of times we. blame ourselves and say well if I you. know look you leaned in because you wore. that dress and you you know um But but.

it is a tricky balance because. you know if you're in a professional. setting and wearing a dress or a certain. if if if that is the standard. then you are a little you know you do. have to be thoughtful. So we have to. think a lot more. I mean, it's justing. this is also what I'm saying in the. book, right? I mean, to to strike that. balance and to be thoughtful about what.

messages we're sending, giving, receiving. Men don't do that. My husband. wasn't doing that. Same suit. Put on. blue suit, black, white shirt, different. tie. You know, I mean, we're on a trip. where there's 8,000 things happening in. one day. you know, we're on a safari and. then we're at a meeting and then, you. know, even the way they structured the. day, it's like this is a man's schedule, you know, and all he has to do take off. his tie, unbutton the top top, take his. jacket off. Now he's casual. Now he can.

talk to kids. Now he's at a meeting at. the UN, throws that jacket back on. And. I'm following around and it's like, I. got heels and flats and cobblestones and. sweaters and blazers and tops and skirts. that are too short. Now you can't stoop. That's me. But that's all of us, right? We we So there's so many there's so much. work that I think we we do it so easily. as women. It it is just a part of waking.

up. And it is a lot of work. And I'm I. want us all to start owning that it is a. lot of work and that it does take. strategy because you know and and for. men to pretend like it doesn't that that. that this isn't part of the game you. know like and if we don't name it you. know if we keep trying to pretend like. no I just woke up like this you know I I.

want you to know how much we're I want. My I wanted my I want my husband I made. sure he understood me traveling with you. and you traveling. Different. different burden, dude. Different. burden. It's so refreshing because again. I've seen obviously critics online being. like, "Oh my gosh, this is just this. isn't for the time. We don't need to. hear about the nice dresses you were. wearing." And I'm like that that's the.

complete that's you're actually feeding. into why she had to write the book. because that's the exact point that. you're still just seeing it at surface. level. >> It takes people to read the book, right? And this is what politics are, right? I. mean, you know, I've been in the. political world. I am affiliated. I. understand it. You know, it's like you. don't know me, right? So you see the. book, anybody who's known me, my career, my life, the book, other books I've. Which is why this book is the third.

book, not the first book, because I was. like, yeah, talking about fashion, you. know, you know, you got to lay a. foundation for it. >> You got to ease them in. >> You got to ease them in. But it's also. like, if you know me, you know I'm just. not that person. I'm not the person. that's just going to talk about some. dresses, right? It's got Michelle. It's. got to have a meaning behind it. So, what I would just say to people is pick. it up and read it first. That's all. As. opposed to reading a review about it or.

reading a review of somebody who would. never like me, who has already has a. predisposed. opinion which exists in this country. This is this is really a book about um. [clears throat]. self-determination, who we are as women. um how it's about. the team of people that help us and and. it's an industry and a business and it's. a billion-dollar business and what. stylists and makeup artists do is not.

just this fun little thing. You know. that many of us don't have the time the. luxury to do it but this expectation is. still there. So if we if we don't talk. about if we don't have to talk about. fashion, then let's make it irrelevant. Then why are there dress codes? And why. are people commenting about people's. hair? Why why why are we doing any of. it? You know, it it puts us in a trap in. a way, but it can also be fun with I.

know it's like such a good point. It's. like it can have such a fun freedom to. it, but we would be remiss to not. acknowledge everything that you've said. in this book so brilliantly of just like. yes, but guys, we have to acknowledge. that women just have such a different. standard that we're held to. And I. appreciate you acknowledging that yes, there is a different level of privilege. as the two of us sitting here right now. and the outfit choices that we're. making. Yes, we can decide to send a. message what we're wearing. But it a lot.

of times right now in our position, we. are not being. >> held to well, you wore that, so you're. not going to get the job now. But if you. rewound to our lives, like when I was a. younger girl, I did dress a specific way. because I knew I was in a male-dominated. industry. And I knew I would have a. better time if I wore a tighter shirt. because the guy would maybe give me more. attention. What I did with that, though, is so important, and I appreciate you. acknowledging that. It's like don't lose. yourself to the game of the misogyny. that we all get wrapped into. And I want.

to talk about social media with you. because this plays into it where. >> that's the newest arena where women are. being objectified. And I emphasize. newest. We've been objectified for. forever since day one, but this is this. is new. Um you've talked about how women. and girls are demeaned, devalued, and. disrespected, especially online now. And. we have studies to back it up, right? Mental health issues, body image issues, self-esteem issues. >> One really sad reality of this is that.

>> it's not just men tearing women down. >> Well, this is. >> women. It's more often women. >> tearing each other down. And. >> that's even more painful. >> Yeah. >> Because it's sadly, I hate to say it, we. expect it from men. And so it hurts that. much more when it is another woman doing. it to another woman. How did you deal. when women came at you? And do you have. advice for.

>> women who are victims of you know being. unfairly targeted? I mean it's it's you. know surprisingly yeah it would hurt. more um coming from a woman um because. it's like wow you know you know you know. what we're going through but here's what. helps me and it doesn't you know it it. it it takes time maturity to kind of.

come to peace with this um but in order. to keep myself sane pain in the midst of. this on all levels I just try to wonder. what's going on in the mind of the. person who can go there right and when I. think about women attacking women. it it is always rooted in the insecurity. and lack of self-esteem that is rampant. in our culture like we're set up to feel.

badly about ourselves. right? And then to turn against. ourselves and then to turn on each. other. Um it's a doggy dog world out. there. Um so I try to humanize my. victimizer and say something happened to. you. Something is, you know, some. something is tearing away and it doesn't. ha and it doesn't have to do with me, right? I am I might have been the. closest easiest target for you at the.

time. Um, but let me so that I can stay. sane and wake up and show up well with. people because as first lady that's. ultimately my job. I mean, I couldn't. let something break me to the point. where I got so cynical and despondent. about the whole of this country. Like to. me it's like it was it's my job to. believe in America to believe in our.

utter deep goodness because that is. true. That is the you know and when. people go astray it's because of. something that happened to them a. brokenness and that helps me rightsize. my feelings. Um. >> I agree with you because I think. especially with therapy and you know we. have psychology right we know through. psychology that women that are attacking. other women it's like there is an. insecurity there is a pain and a lot of. times I think online especially the.

conversation does stop there though of. oh she's just jealous or she's insecure. she's going through something I mean I. think the term mean girl for the. millennial and genz generation it has. been so present in their vernacular It. is at the forefront of the way that they. speak and they look at each other. She's. a mean girl. She's a mean girl. She's. not a mean girl. I guess my question. though to you would be if we know this, if these people are in pain, then how do. we solve this issue? Like how can the.

women who are bullying and abusing. redirect that anger and that insecurity. not onto other women but to where? >> Yeah. Yeah. the one of the reasons why I focused so. much of my energy in the White House in. in my post White House years on just. working on issues of women and girls and. their empowerment and self-esteem. um. you know the we're we're not focused on. that strategically or politically when.

we you know we haven't had conversations. in a long time just about education and. the education system or what what kind. of afterchool opportunities are there. for kids. I mean you know we as a. society aren't talking about a lot these. days about how we are nurturing and. protecting our kids. Um, so now. everybody is taking it on individually, right? So what do I do with my girls?

I'm trying to make sure that they feel. seen in their household because they, you know, and I'm trying to sign them up. for activities that make them feel. strong and to build confidence and, you. know, I'm I'm doing that for myself and. I'm staying healthy and, you know, but. how do you deal with a problem. systemically? Yeah, that's where government and. taxpayers and people caring about one. another and caring about our kids. It.

happens because we give. wonderful places for kids girls to land, you know. Um I think you know kids need. to young girls need to be in groups, you. know, Girl Scout groups and opportunity. They need to be able to play sports and. they need to be able to they need to. have access to things that get them out. of their loneliness and off of their. phone and and get their brains and. bodies working, right? So, so it's a I.

think it's just such a big, you know, I. know we could be here for weeks and days. talking about this because you're right, it is such a systemic issue. I I. couldn't help but think too when you're. talking about, you know, bring women. together and and I know how you uh talk. a lot about your kitchen table. girlfriends and how integral they have. been to your life. And I think every. woman can feel that when you have your. girlfriends, like you say, you know, love Barack, but. >> they're your sanity. Those girls, we we.

get each other. >> The flip side though is still living in. this patriarchal society. It breeds. competition between women because there. is not enough room for all of us. So. there if there's 90 people in the room. and the three women are coming in, how. can you not feel competitive? And and. then I think. >> about you in this situation. It's like. >> by society's standard now you are the. friend to be jealous of, right? How have you worked through the.

competitive [clears throat] dynamics. with girlfriends and tried to keep it. not competitive? >> Well, some of it is like how you pick. and choose, right? So, in the light when. I talked about the kitchen table, it's. like you've got to be really smart and. selective about who you let in, who you. let stay in, um, and who who you let. out. um you know who who is ready to. follow the path that you want to go on,

right? And that that's practice, right? Uh one of the things that I say to my. girls and to young girls, it's like. don't be afraid to make friends, you. know, be open, stay open. Um, and I. always wanted my girls, no matter what. they were going through, it's like try. on new people and and let them in. because you're strong enough to deal. with somebody who might disappoint you. because sometimes people disappoint you. And if they disappoint you in a way. that's dangerous, let them out quickly,

you know, slow ghosts. Get them get a. move on. Trust. And the more you. practice it, the more you you you. recognize it quicker, you know, and it. so for me, I I I think I choose well, first of all. Um, and so it starts. there. And again, that takes practice. You learn that over time. You learn. yourself. Um, and once my friends are in. in my journey, we're all going together,

you know? I mean, it's just it's not. it's never just my journey. It's like. you're coming, you know, let's do this. You know, I had to do that really. proactively as first lady because we. lived in this bubble. And if I wasn't. proactive about maintaining my. relationships with my friends, everybody. could have easily slipped away. You. didn't have my phone number. You can't. walk up to my door and just, girl, what. you up to? It's like, nope. You got to. go through eight rounds of security. You.

know, hand in your social security card. You gota, you know, you get you get a. hold to do audit. You [laughter] know, it's like, hey, >> you're a high maintenance friend. You. know, >> you know, I would understand. It's like, you know what, I give up. So, you know, >> it's a good point. >> So, that's why I said even making. friends as first lady, I didn't like. write that off. I was like, I'm going to. have to really extend myself for a new. mother to be like, okay, Sasha's coming. over for a sleepover. We're going to.

need to know your social security. number. We're going to there there's. going to be a sweep of your home. They're going to find out. They're going. to want to know about whether you have. guns in the house or drugs. They won't. take them from you, but they need to. know. There will be men standing out. So, what time do you want her to come. by? Great. [laughter]. >> They're like, I don't know anymore. >> So, you you you know that that kind of. helps you. It's like, okay, you ready? You you you ready? >> You ready? >> Let's go. >> Um so, I just for me um I just I take my.

friends with me as much as possible. So, you're coming with me. We're doing, you. know, we're doing boot camps, you know, once a quarter. We're going on trips. We're planning the motherdaughter ski. trip. We're And a lot of times I would. take the lead because you, you know, you. can't schedule me, [laughter]. >> you know. No. So realizing those. limitations and I think when you're all. kind of even if people aren't rising or. doing the same thing, I found that if my.

friends feel like I see them and I I'm. like I want you on my journey and we're. all going to we're all going to enjoy. this together. It's not me and you. I. found that that's the way I've kept this. sort of am I the friend to be jealous. of? It's like we're all we're we're all. going up this mountain together. >> I mean, I think that my audience needs. to hear that because I think it's it's.

very. present right now in a lot of people's. lives. We've got a lot of, you know, 18 to 30, 40 year olds listening and. it's like you're leaving maybe college. Did you get the job? who's moving, who's. got the boyfriend, who's got the thing. And it's it there's so much. clouded competition because you think, well, oh god, she got married first and. I haven't yet or she had the kid and I. didn't yet. >> Well, because this is what we're doing. is we're checking boxes, right? And.

social media kind of, you know, it. exacerbates that because now you know. what everybody is doing and and. everybody's only posting the good things. that they're doing. The thing that I. want the listeners to know, young women, is that. the value of cultivating friendships is. important. It's as important. It's as. important as the degree that you got in. college. It's as important as the job.

title and the salary or the dude you're. trying to, you know, catch or the the. the ve length of your veil on your. wedding dress like that. All that stuff. comes and goes. I don't even remember. I. remember my wedding, you know, I have. the pictures. It was a wonderful day. But my friendships, those relationships. are important. And I just want, you. know, in the the the the advent of.

technology and social media, it's almost. like we're telling people, you're okay. by yourself. All you need is your phone, some apps, and success. And what I'm. saying is no, you need friends, and you. have to work on that. That means you. have to be a good friend. That means you. have to put down your stuff and. prioritize your friendships. if you want. to have them. >> Let's talk about that because. >> there's so much pressure on women to. present as perfect, right?

>> And then get validated for it. And. especially, you just said on social. media, but you think back in the day, two magazines come out a month and it. doesn't mean that there's not, you know, scrutinizing and comparing and everyone. looking at it, >> but it's endless now. It is 247. all day. all day the Photoshops and. airbrush and we're curating and we're. carefully, you know, designing how we. want people to think about us. Can you. talk a little bit to perfection and how.

so many women and girls feel like they. need to reach this unattainable goal? >> Yeah. I mean, I'm generationally kind of um. that's it's it's the experience that. young women, girls are ha, you know, having now. It is foreign to me. I, you. know, I didn't with my I'm gonna be 62. I'm an old lady. No, you're not. >> I'm like my grandmother, right? That's. I'm counting the days and going, you.

know what? >> When I thought my grandmother was old, she was my age, right? >> Stop, [laughter] Michelle. [gasps]. >> No. But with as fast as things have. changed, we are in the midst of one of. the a major uh industrial revolution. It. was it's like the creation of. electricity, right? The TV like this is. new, right? And I'm of the old guard, right? So I don't I don't have the.

habit. I'm not hooked on it. Like I'm. still picking up a book. I'm still. calling a friend, right? I don't even. know why you would want to be lonely. Like, why are you alone? It's like, don't do that, you know? >> Sounds so good when you say it. >> Go to the coffee shop, you know? Don't. order the thing in. Just get out, right? Go to the gym, you know, just because. you can be by yourself. Don't don't do. it. So, um, so that it is foreign to me.

the the pressure that you guys feel. Um, but I get it. I I get it. Um what I want. to tell people, young women, is get off. the phone. I really do. It's like it's a. habit. It's not a need. And I'm not. saying get rid of it. I'm just saying. you've got to get off of the phone and. start investing in your in real life. stuff and experiences. >> But can we go as far to say like it it's.

an addiction? >> Yes. >> Think about this. >> It's intended to be an addiction. No. generation prior to this had. >> four year olds being addicted to. something. 5y olds, six-year-olds, 10year-olds. We have addiction right now. that the we we cannot stop. I am hoping, Alex, that the the learning curve is. going to be quick, right? Because we. didn't know, right? It's this is so new, you know? Um and now we're starting to.

get the statistics in on depression. This is real. It it's it the the the dip. in and the rise in depression is. directly connected and linked to the. creation and rise of social media. And. I'm hoping that the society parents will. start understanding that this isn't just. a free-for-all thing. There are great. things about it, but there are a lot of. problems with it. So, we have to stop we. we have to start regulating. Well, we. [clears throat] have to start regulating. also because I've, you know, I've.

interfaced with some young kids and I'll. be like, "Why do you want to have this. phone over this phone?" Or, "Why do you. not want to do like take your phone and. put it away for a while?" And they're. like, "Because if I don't see it, then I. go to school tomorrow and I am the only. person in the class that is not aware of. what the entire rest of the class was. talking about. So then there's like a. bullying element and there's an. alienization that's happening where. you're like, I don't want to be the only. kid that's not clued in and tapped in. So then it h it cannot be one kid trying.

to lead the pack and it can't be right. And that's some of the experts have said. it. Jonathan Height, Scott Galloway, a. lot of people who've written books about. it have said that it would be a lot. better if parents and communities made. these decisions together, right? So that. you you know but we're still a long way. from that. We're still figuring that. out. In the meantime, I don't know that. I have a my message is the old school. message of no one is perfect. That stuff.

isn't real. >> It's not real at all. >> It is just not real at all. And so why I. write this book and try to talk openly. is that if people are listening to me. and I'm saying that look this face it. takes work to do and I'm not trying to. have a full face every day. You know I. wear makeup when I'm going to be on TV. right that no one is living these great. lives. It's just I know that because I. live a really great life and it's not. always perfect. Um, it's it's it's a.

message that I don't know lands because. it's rooted in what I know is the truth. and all I can say is how do I know. because I know. Um, and so don't. >> don't feed into it. >> Don't feed into it because and I and I. can also say I know a lot of these. people that you're looking at. I know a. lot of these celebrities. >> girl same. And I'm like. >> trust us, >> right? It's like. >> it's not exactly what it seems and this. is work. They're getting paid for it,

right? And I think something that you um. you know talking about even just like. there needs to be actual change and we. need to organizationally come together. it is similar to what we're talking. about with women and change right and I. think especially with social media. >> the amplification of aging and the. conversation about aging around women. There are billion dollar brands that are. pushing anti-aging aka saying as a woman. gets older it is a bad thing to age.

Meanwhile, it is a privilege to age, but. we have been warped to believe put this. cream on or inject this thing into your. face and then you will be deemed more. worthy to society. In your book, you. talk about aging, right? And embracing. new seasons of life rather than freaking. out over, you know, a gray hair or a. wrinkle. >> But how do we as a society fight this. demonization of aging women? Well, I always say that we just, you.

know, men get older and wiser and. esteemed, right? Um, women, we just get. old, right? >> Yeah. [sighs] It's crazy. >> But the truth is that like I my 60s are. the best time of my life. That's all. it's it's the canary in the coal mine. I'm just telling you ladies, girls, like. it gets better and better and better, you know? Um, yeah. The youth and the.

your skinny waist when you're 20. Yeah, but you have no money. You don't know. what to do with it. I mean, it's like, man, it's and it's it's hard. You know, you're confused all your 20s and 30s. And I'm just telling people, you're. right. Yes, it's confusing and it feels. painful, but it's it gets better. And so. for me, I'm also, you know, what we are, what we don't do is celebrate the wisdom. of older women, right? I mean, there's.

so much that older women know for sure. Like, it's like, we were there. I got. the answer. I can really like I know. I. I did it right. I'm not saying I know. because I'm smarter. I just tried all. that. I failed. that doesn't you know. you can literally go that's not going to. work for you doesn't mean you're not. going to try it but when it doesn't like. I can tell you don't feel badly. that you failed because it wasn't ever.

going to work and there was only one way. to learn that is that you did it and. it's okay that you you did like there's. so much we have to offer but what do we. do we. instead of re you know podcast and blogs. and social media being run by really. wise women who actually have facts, right? It's a bunch of kids who are. like, "You don't know. You I know you. don't know." I mean, like, I love a.

parenting blog for sure, you know, when. it comes to the best bottle and the new. contraptions because it that stuff is. better. Like I'm like, "Wow, I wish I. had that stroller that you can just pop. and close." But like who do I want to. listen to on like childhood behavioral. stuff? I want to talk to a woman, a. parent, not just woman. I want to see. what your adult children look like. I. just want to meet.

>> before I figure out whether I'm going to. follow your theory because when you're. young, you don't know. >> You're just living it. You're sitting. You're testing it. And so I think the. social, you know, the social connection. of mother, young mothers or young. parents struggling, that's a cool thing. But guess who has some real wisdom. around like I tried this and it failed. like this really? But where are those. bloggers? Where are those conversations. happening? And where are young women. just coming to ask to say, well, let me,

you know, sit down with my moms and my. aunts. >> It's such a good point, Michelle. But. then again, I think because of the the. competition and the misogyny and how. warped our brains are, I see women in. the comment section saying, "Aren't you. too old to be doing that? Aren't you too. be old to be doing this?" And so, but. again, it's all projection. It's the. fear of getting older. It's like, how. can the absence or the presence of. wrinkles on my forehead dictate the the. like words that are coming out of my.

mouth and how much you actually respect. them or don't respect them? And so aging. for women, it's this fear when really, again, like you said, for men, it's like. we're washed up. They're wise. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> It gives them integrity. We're. irrelevant. >> And so there's this push and pull that I. think at some point, you're right, women. have to look inward and start to say, why am I not tapping into this older. generation who is looking down being. like the hands out, we got you, girls. >> And I think those are great. conversations for young women to have. with one another, right? Um because I.

think I haven't met an older woman that. isn't like any like you want to know. you're asking. >> Yes. >> Sit down. Let's talk. I don't want you. to fail. I want you to be better than me. because now I really am not competing. Like all that stuff that was going on. you we learned it didn't help. It didn't. it just messed up a lot of stuff. So now. you know we can really look at that. gener. At least I know I'm in that.

place. >> No, it's a great point. >> Like it's the favorite thing I have to. do which is impart some something that I. learned to somebody younger. >> That's why speaking of you know you have. this wisdom. You have talked about the. gender gap when it comes to confidence. As women we are you know often doubted. and underestimated by others and. ourselves. We struggle with imposttor. syndrome while men walk around with what. you call unearned confidence.

As someone who has been such a symbol of. strength for women around the world, when did you doubt yourself the most and. how did you get through those periods? Wow. Um, you know, your 20s and 30s are. tough times, right? be because I always. I' I've learned or I felt that. women were less or at least I was less. likely to claim what I knew because I.

was always there was always maybe I. don't know and well and I don't want to. I don't want to sound too pompous or let. me not cut you off. Um, you know, we're. we're we're more socialized to don't. step on toes because then you're bossy. You know, there's also a little. smackdown of it. You know, it's like, well, if you're if you're a little too. aggressive now, you're aggressive. You. you're you're not. So, sometimes those. labels happen and we get them. I mean,

my my own mother, I was she was like, "You're a bossy. I'm the bossy one." You. know, it's like I felt like the bossy. one my whole life. And I know a lot of. outspoken young girls who were labeled. as the bossy ones in their family when. they were probably the ones that like. had good instincts and were organized. and had opinions and you know so that. stuff is actually happening to us. It's. not in our minds, >> right? It's like self-doubt because.

>> you are young and you are figuring it. out. And so the imposttor syndrome I you. know in your book I love how you talk. about this cuz. >> you talk about the tension that we often. face as women between wanting to be. viewed as both a woman of substance. >> and a woman of style. And so right in. other words it's like you want to be. respected for your brain and you also. you want to be cool. You want to have a. career and you want to have a romantic. relationship. Mhm. >> You somehow managed multiple identities.

at the same time. You were an attorney. and you were on the cover of Vogue. You. were known as mom and chief and you were. meeting with the leaders of foreign. countries. >> How did you nurture all of those. identities and stay whole? Because this. is so relevant to my audience right now. They're struggling to be multiple things. at once and feel confident about it. >> Yeah. I what I've come to learn is that. this can you have it all? Yes. Not at.

the same time. And I think that we beat. ourselves up because here's what I there. are lot a lot of women who are listening. a lot of women period who I will call. 120enters. That means that just showing. up means we're not just showing up we're. excelling because we've always had to do. that to get a seat at the table. we have. to be smarter and brighter and and we. kind of do because if you slip up, you. know, you don't necessarily get a second. chance or the benefit of the doubt or so.

we've been trained to do that. So now. we're operating like that and trying to. do it with everything that we're doing. and 120% plus 120% plus 120% adds up to. crazy. >> and a mental breakdown. >> Exactly. Um, so one of the things I had. to learn is that like a lot of times my. 50%. is good enough, but I have to first be. okay with it, right? So when it came to.

raising my kids and keeping my job when. I felt the push of I don't know if I'm. like am I there for my kids like I want. to? Like I had to stop breastfeeding and. I had to do this and I had to go back. Um, but I like having the salary and. being able to pay down our student debt. and why walk away from that. Um, what I. realized was like, okay, I I can't be. driving hard at my job at this time. My.

husband is in politics. He has three. jobs. Somebody's got to take it down a. notch. So, I I've learned to stay in the. car, keep your foot on the gas, but just. don't floor it all the time on all. things. You don't that doesn't mean you. have to break. That doesn't mean you. have to pull the car over and get out. It just means that there will be aspects. of parts of those your yourself that you. can't go 120%.

And then that means that we as women. have to accept a little bit less from. ourselves than we're used to. And that. that takes you have to just get used to. that. And it's all in here, right? It's. it's all the internal message. Like if. you have a job, maybe you aren't going. to be able to make homemade baby food, you know? And guess what? Like I loved. the jar face. Like there was nothing. better than that dinner. I was like,

whoa. I when they started needing real. real food, I was like, curses, >> I gotta cook. [laughter]. But that stage of, >> you know, sweet potatoes, I loved it. And I'd just go to the grocery store. I'd be like, "Look at mom figure. You're. going to have a little beef here, a. little carrot in a jar." I, you know, I. mean, >> I love it. I love it. It's so real, though. So, you have to be kind of okay. with that's not going to kill them. Or.

maybe you you can't breastfeed for a. year because you can't um you don't like. it. Your body isn't able to. You had to. go back to work. Baby's going to be. fine. You know, I mean, we our parents. didn't even breastfeed. I mean, there. was a generation of women that were. told, "Similac, here you go. I am a. formula baby, 5'11. Brain's working just. fine. Just just a little just a little. bit. Just a little bit, you know. So,

you know, we have to take some pressure. off of ourselves. It's like, why are we. trying to bounce back? What's the bounce. back? >> What's the You're going to have a baby, your whole body is twisted up and then. you want to like be back at the gym. doing solid core at the Why Why are we. doing this to ourselves? And I think the comparison for women. when especially mothers um I've seen. again because social media it just is. non-stop. >> We don't know what everyone's going. through. So.

>> lying. >> Yes. They're lying. >> And so when you're saying you're popping. the jar open and you put it on the. plate, you're taking a picture of the. plate. You're like look like what I did. And you know it's just like let's not do. that to each other. Let's be more honest. about the struggle. I'm try I try to do. that, you know. Um and I am constantly. telling young mothers like you it's. coming, right? You don't have to get off. your career track and I don't even. recommend it because kids grow up fast. and then they're gone. Like you've.

sacrificed everything and you know when. they leave they leave. They close the. door and act like you never sacrifice. They're like I remember you. I don't. need you anymore. Right? So what I'm. like, you better have saved something. for yourself so that when that period. comes and they're ready to move on and. you're also not holding on longer. because now what do I'm going to do? I. devoted everything to you and I need to. now I've got to fill my time. So I.

always in I encourage people to hang in. there and keep something for yourself. throughout this process. But that means. you don't you're maybe you're not going. to be VP in five years. Like if you have. in your mind that there's a track and. there's only one way to do it. That's. what trips us up a lot of times. Like. I'm going to be partner by the time I'm. 28. Hey look, if you live until you're. 80, 90, there's so much time. There's so.

much. And I tell people, look, I had to. get off a track and take pay cuts and. come back, sacrifice cuz my husband was. president, you know, and that that was. kind of a, you know, so um but in the. midst of that, >> I still manage to. >> be a lawyer, run a nonprofit. I can run. down the list, be an author, you know, I. raise really sane kids who, you know,

aren't perfect, but I they're really. really good. Um, so there is time, but. we have to be we have to give ourselves. a lot more grace in the process. That. would that that's what I've learned. Giving myself grace. It's like, yeah, I'm not I'm not getting it all right. And and then we we as women have to be. we have to support each other. We just. really have to stop being a part of the. fantasy, you know. Um it's it's not.

serving us. It's not true, you know. And. it's okay to not be happy sometimes. Like that's also a thing you you know. like not being perfectly satisfied and. in the exact place that you want every. part of your life is that's like that's. what life is. >> Yeah. That's what life is. And I love. how you said like but I understand that. society makes women feel like they have. to be perfect. So when it's very.

uncomfortable at first when you're like. I'm not succeeding and I'm not doing the. best. Like it reminds me um in your. memoir how you would tell your girls to. always start dinner even if your husband. hadn't come home yet because I didn't. want them to ever believe that life. began when the man of the house arrived. home. We didn't wait for dad. It was his. job to now catch up with us. >> I think society puts such a pressure on. women to prioritize finding a man over. finding a career and a life that they. love. As women, I would love your wisdom.

and advice of like how do we prioritize. finding fulfillment within ourselves. first. >> before finding fulfillment in a marriage. or a partnership. I think it starts with. the subliminal messages that we send our. our girls. Um, and I'm really I have two. beautiful daughters and you know, you. find yourself slipping up and going, "Oh, are you dating anyone?" You know, it's like like let me not make that the.

first question or the second question or. a question at all. Like let me, you. know, um because I hear it being asked. You run out of stuff to say to a young. girl, it's like you dating anyone? Um. you know, it's like I I just in our girl. group, I'm when it comes up and we do. that, I try to talk to our my mom. friends about it and what what that's. doing. What are our own insecurities as. mothers like that? We're like, well, I.

you seem happy and you're on a track, but do you have a boyfriend? Like like that, you know, >> so bad. >> It's just a it's an when you break it. down like that, it's like those are the. little things that no matter what and. then despite what your parents say, it's. just a social pressure. you see. everybody getting married, you So I. think we have to be mindful of the the. way we craft questions to our not just.

our daughters but our sons, >> how we talk about what happiness is and. we have to work hard to separate our. fears and insecurities as parents. >> We have to separate that from our kids, right? Because we're still carrying. these old images. We are still. programmed. We are still of a gener. generation where that's what women did. You went to We did go to college. We. were different. There there was the. expectation that you went to college. We.

all got our degrees, but everybody. started getting their MRS as they called. it out of college and that was also a. part of it. And you'd have a career, but. you'd do it until you got pregnant, you. know. So we have to admit that women of. my generation there was a there was a. path and we and we carry that with us. Um and we imprint that onto our kids as. like this is the way that I know that. you'll be happy so I can stop worrying.

about you and I can know that you'll. have a good life. It's such a good point. of like, you know, putting the former. beliefs and system onto the new. generations because like you even think. about it like why do women have miss, Mrs. and then Miss. >> and men never change from mister. They. are you're just you're always you. Once. again, you don't have to evolve. See, we. we're even evolving. What do I call. myself? >> We're changing,

>> right? You know, it's like I went. through that too when I got married. I. was like, "Okay, I'm going to be. Michelle Robinson Obama." Right? I did. that. I was pr I was in a real career. and it I felt like this is a lot of. name. [laughter]. It feels like a little silly. Michelle. Robinson Obama. Hello. I did that for. like a month and I was like, "Okay, that. that's I'm tired, you know." Me, too. >> I got to write that down. That's long. Three syllables for three names. >> It's too much. It's too much. >> So, I was like, "Okay, let me pick one.".

And I stuck with Obama because. I had a brother. I didn't come from a. family that my father was like, "You. carry the name, you know, it was like. it's a name." Um, and I was like, Obama's really strange name, so let's. all just be this strange name together, you know? Let's just all take it on, you. know? >> It's [laughter] a good name. It's a good. name. >> I'll take it. I'll take it. But that was. the that was the thought. It's like, let. me just pick. But he didn't he wasn't. going through this. he wasn't changing. his license and his social security.

number and you know he he you know so. yeah another way that we evolve and it's. another way to send a subliminal message. that it is up up to us to do the. evolving it is and and I love how you've. spoken about um society's expectations. we're discussing obviously of women to. stay nice and to stay passive and small. and how hard it is if you are a driven. ambitious woman trying to make a big. impact. When we talk about dating for my.

audience, so many women I think then if. they are going against the societal. norms and they're like, "Okay, I'm going. to focus on myself. I'm going to pour. into myself. I'm going to focus on being. an individual. I don't need a man. I. want a man, but I don't need a man.". >> Then it brings the whole caliber of, "Oh. god." Then you have to potentially. shrink yourself when you do find a man. because you're so sure of yourself. And. that is terrifying for most men. And so. they're threatened and you're kind of. trying to play the game and you can't be. your full self. Did you ever feel like.

you had to do that when you first met. Barack Obama and you were an experienced. lawyer and he was, you know, a summer. associate? >> Yeah. Um, fortunately, it was one of the things. that drew me to him, you know, like I. didn't have to I I didn't have to change. my fundamental self. I think it helped. that we started out that summer with me.

not seeing him as a potential because I. was his adviser and I was like, "Yeah, no, we're not going to do that." Right? Um, and why? you know, he's cute, but I. have a lot of friends. And so, I think. that helped, right? Because I wasn't, we. didn't start up our relationship as, oh, I'm going to try to Yeah. You know, and. maybe it would have, but I think we kind. of entered it, you know, as as peers, you know, and we developed our.

relationship because we had the same. kind of humor and we'd make the same. kind of jokes and we'd find the same. things kind of corny, you know. Um, and. I was being fully myself, cynical in. ways, and you know, I'd pick at pick at. him and be like, "That's weird. Why do. you do that?" I mean, so the fact that. that. made him think we should date, right? It's like that me that like that didn't. repel him. That was like he was like and. I was like, "No, we shouldn't date.

because that looks tacky." And it was. like I don't care what people say. Um, so it's like, you know, so what do I. tell a lot of young girls? Like dating. different people helped me to to see the. difference in who Barack was when he. showed up. I don't, you know, if he had. been the first person I dated because I. just didn't date, I might have taken. that for granted. I might have thought, "Yeah, well that these are buddy vibes, right?" Um, I had learned enough to know.

this is this is different in a in an. important way. Um, and I just think. that's the experience of dating. different people and noticing in in the. end it's I want young listeners to focus. more on their internal feelings. It's like really instead of what is hap. what what the world is telling you to. feel. really start trusting your gut and.

building that internal gut um of how you. feel about other people how you feel. about yourself in I because I think in. the end the work is still within like. the only thing you really can tr can. control is you in this world and even in. my marriage Now, you know, you go. through the period of I want him to be. different. I want him to do this. differently. I've grown to know I don't. have control over him just like he. doesn't have control over me. So, let me.

do my work and let him do our work and. together we come together as whole. people. And so, I want our our our. listeners because they're mine now too, right? >> Bring them in, Michelle. >> Like, let's do do the work on self. like start feeling good about yourself, start working on your health, start. feeling strong within yourself, start. practicing self-esteem, start working on.

building your relationships and your. friendships, you know. Um, work on being. as whole as you can be. Uh because you. can't control who's going to love you, who's going to like you, who's going to. give you a job, who's going to see you. the way you want to be seen because. everybody has their own stuff. And so. you can't define yourself by other. people's stuff. So like how do we become. more confident individuals? We have to.

practice that, work on ourselves. We. have to know pick apart those aspects of. our childhood that we carry around. I am. a believer in therapy. I am I am in I go. to therapy. We've been in couples. therapy. I believe in the practice of. having those conversations with. objective people who help you piece. through that stuff. And it's a constant. it's it's constant work. You don't get. to a point where like I'm there. I'm.

done. I'm good. It's over. Right. it and. then so I don't want people to be. intimidated by like this is what life. is. We were ever growing, evolving, improving. There isn't like a finish. line where you get an A and you're now a. whole person perfectly. It it I'm 62. It. doesn't happen. My mother was 86 when. she died and there were parts of her. that she was still building upon. And so. it's not in your 80s. You know, I had a.

great conversation with Jane Fonda and. Beth Anne Hardison on my podcast about. aging in the public eye. They're still. having those conversations with. themselves about evolving. And I think. that that is the power that we have as. women is that we know we have to keep. evolving and so we do. A lot of men. don't. They don't. >> It's so true. I um. >> they're just like here and proud of it, >> right? Because I've worn these same. pants for 20. It's like don't say that.

Like that's not cool. >> It's not It's not impressive. >> It's not impressive. >> It's not impressive. No, it's so. inspiring the way that you are speaking. about this because um I remember I was. so fortunate I got to interview Jane. Goodall and she talked a lot about how. she was still pushing and she was still. going because she still wanted to learn. And I think having an appetite to learn. means you want to change and you want to. evolve and you want to grow. And I agree.

with you the power of the system. basically [ __ ] us being like you're. not enough and you need to be this and. it does force us to constantly have our. head on a swivel. So in a beautiful way. you have to find the positives. We're. forced to be so multifaceted and we're. forced to know who we are in so many. different lanes and we're also forced at. every age 18 21 30 40 50 60 80 we have. to constantly be thinking how we're.

evolving because society is forcing us. to do that. But if we can use it to our. advantage. that's when you become unstoppable. we. can give oursel grace in the process. because in the end I think we're all. just too hard on ourselves that it. starts there, right? And so you're your. first fan and if your first fan is like. you're just kicking your ass like of. course you're mad and [ __ ] and want to. beat the other woman. Of course that. you're competitive within yourself,

right? And so that's where it splatters. out onto everything else. And I think. that women, we need to be kinder to. ourselves, really gentler, you know. Um. >> the. the anger that can come up with the. double standards. Um I just want to make. sure we hit on this because I feel a lot. of in a beautiful way. Yes, our there is. a lot going on with this these. generations, but we are vocal and people.

are saying how they feel. But it is. crazy how the world still punishes. outspoken women and judges us more. harshly than men who literally say the. exact same thing as us. Right. At the. beginning of your husband's first. campaign, you were labeled an angry. black woman because you were speaking. assertively and honestly. >> and passionately. >> Yeah, you referenced that earlier of how. they turned passion into Anger. >> Anger. >> What advice would you give to strong.

women in this upcoming generation right. now who are listening who have been. labeled a [ __ ] or too much or too. passionate and they're doing the same. exact thing as their male counterparts. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's, you know, there's still strategy in in all of it, right? You know what I found that I had. to do? I had to be more thoughtful about. my tone. I didn't agree with it, right? But I was like, until people get to know. me, okay, [sighs] let me smile a little bit.

more. Let me make sure I smile, right? Cuz sometimes I'm talking and it's like, and that's the photo they get. Right. So. that's on the front page. I was like, I. didn't feel that way, but that was in. the middle. And I don't I don't I didn't. like this, but I'm like, okay, we're. we're we still live in a society that. has a different standard for women. So, it's just like with fashion. Let me let. me understand the game and let me let me.

let me play the game. All right. So, instead of being angry about being. called angry, I was like, okay, let me. be careful about doing extemporaneous. speaking, right? because I can do it. But then I launch, right? That's why I. do more speeches publicly because I can. take time and think about what I want to. say and how I want to say it and sort of. think about, you know, how I come off. I. think now the more people have gotten to.

know me, right, at this stage in my. life, I feel like this is why I say, okay, if you know me, you know, you've. heard me enough. You know my heart. you. know, yeah, I I can be funny, but angry, h nah, not really. I'm not that angry. about that. But I am angry about stuff. I'm angry about injustice, unfairness. I. hate bullies. There's a lot I'm angry. about, and I am I feel justified in. being angry about it. So, all right, you.

got me. I am angry about some things, but generally, right, but it takes some. time to earn that, right? Um, so as I'm. talking to younger women, it's like. understand how people are going to come. at you, you know, and then think about how you. want to deal with that because it's it's. not going to go away. So what's your. strategy of re understanding that this. is part of the game.

that it that it doesn't define you. but if you're like I think it is more. important for me to get the point across. than to be right about how I do it. Um. especially in the world that we're in. which was it's the country right? So I. my it wasn't about me. It's not how I. feel. Like to me that's what you the. responsibility of being a leader that. it's not your feelings anymore. Like I.

can have my feelings now cuz everything. I'm doing is about me but when I was. first lady and when I'm doing public. things it's like okay my ego. So how do. I how do I get this to work? You know um. that's what I think about. And if if if. I'm if I'm delivering something in a way. that makes the message fall short on. some ears, then I'm going to change it. because I want people to get the. message. It doesn't matter how I feel. I'm okay with making some changes to get.

this thing done. >> It's such good advice, Michelle. Like. even for myself personally, I'm I feel. like a sponge right now. I'm like, keep. talking. Just keep going. Like how much. more time do we have? because it's so. relevant to the way that women live. right now. It's like there are more. ambitious women than ever, which is. amazing. There are women working. We. finally are allowed to vote. We all have. credit cards. Great. Now we actually. have ambition and we're trying and it is.

an uphill battle. >> But we are being met with like, wait, >> I said the same thing as him. Why didn't. that work? It is. We have to acknowledge. the game. And I think for a while. potentially, especially with feminists. and everything, we felt weird being. like, "No, play the game because it. feels like we are twisting something and. we're being sneaky." And it's like, "No, no, no, no. We are the other. We are the. other." So when we are coming in, it's. we're always playing someone else's game. as women. We are the other sex. So it's.

okay if you are trying to move a certain. way because we live in a man's world. And so you have to sometimes plate and. smile and do these things. But if you. get your message across, that's kind of. all that matters. If you get what you. wanted to get done. >> And the other piece of that is that when. we do have power, >> let's just not become male versions of. the thing that was fe female versions of. the thing that was broken, you know, because a lot of this has to do with. leverage, right? So if you if you don't.

have the power to change it, then you've. got to work to get the power. And. sometimes there are compromises that. have to be made to get the power. And. then when you get the power, when you're. the boss, when you're running your own. thing, then how do you behave as the. leader that like then like because this. is your culture you're setting when. you're in charge of the culture and if. you're still if if you're perpetuating. the game, >> then you're not and not approving it,

you know, that means that then you lost. the plot on the way in. So like as we're. being ambitious women when we do get. that thing then who are you in it? How. are you changing culture? How are you. shifting? Are you just repeating the. mistakes that made you play the game in. the first place? The game is to get the. power to have impact to broaden the. aperture of what is possible. But when. we do have the power, if we're if we're. oppressing, if we're shouting down, if.

we're not including, if you know, if. you're in charge of the dress code, change it. you know, um if if you are. the head of HR and there are ways that. you can make life easier for uh you. know, working mothers and families, then. be the advocate at the table and don't. say, "Well, I had to when I you know, I. didn't have this when I was there. So, you have to pay the same dues.". >> Be the change.

>> Yeah. Be the change. And don't like you. don't want everybody to have to pay your. dues. If you know the dudes were there, then open it up for your the the next. generation. Make your seat the seat that. makes it easier for others like you to. be there. something as you're saying that to bring. men into this conversation um which I. was watching your speech in 2016 today. um when you were the whole speech was.

really about women and you were um you. know there for Hillary and it was such a. beautiful moment because you're like and. men men listening and I I think. sometimes I don't want ever to have men. leave the conversation and be like oh I. guess that's not about yeah it's not. about me and it's us against you and. it's a whole thing so I think to bring. men into this conversation. Um, you've. talked about some really important male. figures in your life. You've talked. about your father, your brother, your. husband. >> How do we bring men in and make them. allies and partners to help solve these.

issues? Because women cannot do this. alone. We need them. >> No. No. I mean, look, I I as the older I. get, I realized how blessed and rare my. existence was as a woman in the world to. be surrounded by so many amazing men. where I was always safe like like and. realizing that like that's more unique. like abuse, neglect,

none of it. I had uncles and brothers. and you know grand both of my. grandfathers right I now understand how. rare that is like it's sad and it makes. me sad to know that so many of us women. and girls don't can't say that that they. had someone in their life that um that. harmed them in some way. um they were.

harmed at the hands of a man that they. couldn't trust. Um I didn't have that. Um and I feel blessed and I understand. that's unique. So in that sense, we. can't lump men into a category, right? Because there are a lot of allies, you. know, they they're different from us. They, you know, we can joke. It's like, nah, you're not that good at that and. you're, you know, but I I have I've.

grown up with wonderful men who my f the. men in my life made helped me with this. confidence, you know. I was always a. part of the of the crew. I was never the. little girl out. My father always. thought he's going to learn a box, you're going to learn to box. You know, my brother protected me, right? Um, so. we can't forget that there are so many. good men that, you know, it isn't us.

against them and we're the ones raising. them still. >> Yes. >> You know, um, we we have so much to. uh impact into how our young men are. shaped as mothers and as women in the in. the world. And so we have to see them as. essential allies from the the moment. they show up in the world. So, but we. can't love them into. uh complacency or incapability.

You know, we're always building the men. that we want. Um, and so my message to. those men, you know, when I'm in a room. full of CEOs and men, the thing I I say. to them, assuming that I'm talking to. all the good ones, it's like, I know you. love your daughters, right? Cuz we're of. a generation now where the way my father. fathered me is not unique anymore. Like. now we have fathers who want their. little girls to be CEOs. like like you.

raised them and you want them to believe. that they can be anything, right? And so. now you're in power. So the question is, are you building the. world that you told your little girl. existed, right? Are you can you look around the seauite. that you run and say that the little. girl that I put all these thoughts and. ideas in that she'll be safe at this. table that I've created and that I.

control. And I'm I'm hoping that if men. think about the tables they're creating. and they're not just looking at the. women they don't know, women that are. not their children. They you know, it's. like men don't raise us, right? So maybe. they don't see us as part of them, but. maybe if you see your daughter at the. table, that you'll do the work to make the. table a place that will respect and. honor the. the the world that you told her she.

could have. Because I always say, then. if you don't, you were lying to her cuz. she's going to enter this world with the. beliefs that you built her up. You know, you built her up. you set her up and. that can be crushing and it's. interesting when I put it that way like. those rooms can go a little quiet in a. way that I think I don't know that there. are men thinking about that allyship in.

that way like putting themselves in in. the role of their daughters that they're. raising right but that's why even just. this conversation Michelle it's like I. can already see it just. clipping that, having that out there for. people to consume what you're just. saying. Like I do think I can recognize. as a woman, as much as you like, oh my. god, like I hate these freaking men, >> that. >> is going to help all of us get closer to. this goal of we do deserve to be equal.

to men. We really do and we still. aren't. And so it's like you have to. allow the people who are in the position. of power to let us in. And so to. completely alienate them, I think a lot. of men in this generation are like, I. don't even know what I'm supposed to do. I guess like women just [ __ ] hate me. I'm just going to sit over here. And. it's like, no, no, no, no, >> do not. We cannot lose their attention. And I think the this message is. >> important. >> Um, >> you said that not going to Trump's. inauguration was an act of getting even. more comfortable saying no regardless of.

what people think, which was so powerful. because as women, >> that's how we're trained. people, please. say yes at all costs. >> Has getting comfortable with saying no. changed your perspective about your very. famous line, when they go low, we go. high? And do you think that the message. still applies given the enormity of what. women are up against today? >> Yeah, I you know, I.

in the light I tried to I I tackled that. question. Do we still go high? Right. And I and I start by saying like the. point of what going high. means to me is what we talk getting to. the solution. It's it's outcome. determinative, right? Like what are we. what is our strategic goal? Um.

and going high means that we are working. strategically towards that goal with a. plan and some objectives and and it's. not purely emotional, right? That. doesn't mean that emotions don't exist. because they do. I do feel anger. I do. feel pain and hurt. But if my anger is leading and it. doesn't work, then what's what are we doing now? I'm. just indulging myself now. I'm just. having a tantrum, you know? And some.

people want that. They're like, I don't. want to see you have the tantrum that I. want to have, right? I was like, but if. the tantrum is not going to work, then. what is the point? And when you're a. leader in my mind, you should have a. point other than self-indulgent, you know, indulging your your anger, right? Because we can get lost in that. So going high to me is feel the. feelings, but where are you trying to go.

with them and let that lead? That's what. going high is thinking before you talk. I mean, we we we teach our kids that. I. mean, that's what it is. It's like count. to 10, you know, cuz like how I feel at. the kitchen table like like that's what. the kitchen table is for. Like get all. that out. Say all the things you want to. say and then look at it and say, "Is. that how you really feel? Because. usually after you step back a little bit. and it's like, "Yeah, well, I would take. that out." And I said all of them and.

always I used a lot of absolutes. That's. not true. now that I'm on 10. So, let me let me re. refi refine that a little bit. Let me. take that. And then you'll find out that. half the stuff you threw out there in. anger isn't even true. And it's not how. you really feel. So now you should go out and communicate. what you really feel really clearly that. you think will that to me that's what. going high is. So yeah, I think we.

should always be trying to go high and I. think as anybody with a platform, a. powerful platform, it's a. responsibility, right? Because that that that platform. is powerful. Like the words you say move. people and you can move them to. productivity or you can move them to. division, you can move them to hate. Um. it is like anybody with a platform can.

do that. So now we now have a. responsibility. If you want the platform. then be it's like a gun like learn how. to use it. Put the safety lock on you. know um because you can cause a lot of. damage but you can also do a lot of good. you know. Um, and that's what going high. means. And yes, I still think that, but. have the feelings. You know, I'm not.

telling people that you're feel like. just like us as women. Yes, it's not. fair. It sucks. The the the the. standards are double. We're killing. ourselves. You know, we're in over we're. inundated with messages that are wrong. Um, feel that. Don't feel like you're. crazy for feeling it. Wrong is wrong. Like, you know, bad is bad, you know, and going high doesn't mean to ignore. that. And and we need to feel those.

feelings to act, but how we act on those. feelings is the going high part is is my. point. >> Michelle, [sighs] I need to hang out. with you more. [laughter] Um, okay. Wow. I'm just like I'm going to like watch. that back every day what you just said. Holy [laughter] [ __ ] Um I want to ask. you about a recent comment you made. about a female presidency. You said,

"Don't even look at me about running. because you all are lying. You're not. ready for a woman." You're not. >> as a country. What do we need to do to be ready? Like. what is it going to take? Look, we've. come a long way, you know. Um, and what my husband has. said and I agree with, change takes time. and context matters, right?

50 years ago, we were fighting for the equal rights. bill, you know, I mean, just this in. there are people alive today, you know, that, you know, couldn't marry the. opposite race, you know, couldn't love. who you loved. I mean, this is recent. history of a country that's been around. for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's. been going along this way, then there's. a little change. It just happened. But but that means.

that the remnants of what has been there. and what we've been socialized is really. deeply embedded in who we are. and whether people really feel yet that. they can follow a woman as president. Like we would just be silly to think. that there aren't just some gut kind of. I I don't know. like we're not even. analyzing what those feelings are about.

because we're trying to pretend like. it's all better. And I just think, well, how could it be all better, you know? I. mean, we we've been feeding off of this. bone for so long. It doesn't just go. away. It takes time, right? So, but. we're moving. We are moving in that. direction. So, that statement was, you. know, there was the humor of it like. stop looking at me, right? You know, so. that it's also my ry humor. It's like. come on people. You know, there were.

people who there are there are men out. there that were not going to vote for a. woman. You know, that's th you you. people have had those conversations, right? Let's just be real about it and. let's put that on the table and talk. about well, what's that about? Let's not. be mad because I made the statement. Let's look at the fact that we've had. two really qualified female candidates. one who was first lady, secretary of. state, well educated, you know,

my husband beat her, right? People were. more comfortable with him as a newcomer, right? And now we just had the for the. former vice president. You know, we've. had we've had qualified women and they. just, you know, again, if they're not. perfect and they don't cross every tea. and dot every eye, there's a falling. shortness that is happening that I, you. know, I'd say, look, but why can't we. talk about that? Why are we pretending.

that that didn't just happen? >> I want to also just let you know, I. agree with you, [laughter] Michelle. I. agree with you. My question back to. everyone who's like, "Oh, no, we're. ready. It's like, how could a woman hold. the highest seat in the government when. she has less rights than half the. population? >> Yeah. Yeah. H. >> how how would that even be? How would. that work? We don't have legally equal. rights to men. How would a woman sit. above. >> men? Like it does it's we're not there. And so there were some people even.

within the Democratic party that. disagreed with your statement publicly. people came out and just said, you know, just because we didn't like the. candidates, that doesn't mean we aren't. ready for a woman. Um, well, I hope so. Like, yeah, great. You know, and look, that mean that doesn't mean that women. should roll up their sleeves and call it. a day, you know. Um, like we're still. growing, you know. So, yeah, I think. it's going to happen. Uh, are we ready.

now? I don't know. Let prove prove us. wrong. I would love that. Right, Michelle? [laughter]. >> If this incentivized everyone to prove. us wrong, I'd be like, >> really? It's like, all right. And I'll. be the first to be like, you're right. Statement. My bad. My bad. >> We're like, we piss them off so much. They're like, no, we'll show you. >> Let do that. And look, for all our the. young women that we're talking to, keep. keep climbing. If you want to be.

president of the United States, dog gone. it, then yes. Yes, you can, right? Um, so yeah, this isn't about slowing down. You know, we keep fighting and growing. and developing and evolving and learning. what happened there, why didn't that. work? But let's really talk about it. because it it hasn't worked. We've had. women governors. we just haven't been. able to crack that ceiling with really. great candidates. So, let's figure out.

what what what's what's going on. And in. the meantime, what I'm telling all young. girls is keep going, y'all. Go to. college, get your education, continue to build those skills, continue. to be good, be kind to yourself, go into politics. I am not a politician. That was also the other point you know. it's just a reminder it's like I am not. a politician not interested in it you. know um just it's not who I want to be.

but I do want a lot of young people a. lot of young girl I want those who want. to do it we need you we need you to want. to to be that so don't take that message. as you can't you should keep trying keep. pro keep keep throwing the opportunity. in this country's face, you know, and. but just be strong in it and know that. you may come up short because maybe we. are, maybe we aren't, but keep going.

Well, it's like our whole conversation. today. I think there again, there's so. much to do for women to get to that. place where we are ready. Um, okay. This. is I mean, >> let me know if you'll answer this one. [laughter]. I'm just going to try. Okay, let's have. a little fun. Okay, >> we're I'm I'm talking about the future. here. So, the future is whatever we want. it to be. Okay. >> So, if this is all hypothetical, >> if Trump does change the law and runs.

for a third term, >> hypothetically, do you think. your husband would consider running? [clears throat]. >> I hope not. [laughter] Michelle, >> I would actively work against that. >> [laughter]. >> you know, >> the whole world starts crying. >> I I would really I wouldn't be I I would. be at home working against it, you know, and maybe a lot of people be like, "Good. We don't want them anyway." And. I'm like, "Yeah, that's what I Right.".

>> Okay. So, you're like not interested, >> you know? I I do believe in the need for. new vision, right? I mean, the the two. terms is not just about we like them, we. want it. It's just like the we're. changing and growing so fast. This is a. hard job and it it requires new energy, new new vision all the time, new ways of. looking at the world, right? So, I do.

believe that eight years is enough like. you know, so and there's so many. talented people out there like why why. would we keep going with the same. people, you know? Um, I I would be a. proponent for how and how are we going. to build young leaders if the same. people keep doing it again and again and. again. You know, now it's your turn. Now. it's my turn. Now you did it again. I'll. do it again. It's like and there's all. these young smart people who are just. looking out outside with their ideas as.

leaders get older and older. You know, the older you get, the just you you you. just live a different life as an older. established person. Um, and I think. there's room for that wisdom, but. there's room for new ideas to come in, you know. So, I am I think two terms is. enough um for everybody, you know, and. it's not a question of what order. It's. just like we've heard and experience. your ideas. This country is constantly.

evolving. What are the next thoughts? People with. a new set of experiences, a new set of a. new take on the world. this new. generation is coming up. They travel. more. They know more about the world. They're exposed in a different way. Like. I I am really really curious about their. perspectives on how to fix some of this. stuff. Like we don't have all the. answers and that's okay. That's why we. move on. [laughter]. >> Yeah. It's a great point. It's a really.

great point. Um to close us out. >> Yeah. >> Two more questions. >> Yeah. I want to end on a message of hope. because this is it's heavy stuff but. it's like in order to change in order to. grow we have to have hope we have to. believe that there is room to move. forward. So first. >> what advice do you have to women. listening who feel scared and angry. about the current state of things and. where we are headed as a country? Oh, it.

it goes back to something that I have. said throughout this conversation that. we we have to be mindful of the context. of where we are and even this time feels. difficult. I would argue because we've had a lot of. unfettered growth, right? This has been a unique time of just.

no war. There's been no great. depression. Um I mean if you look at the. history of the country the the that's. this little period. why it's been you know not free of a lot. of problems right but it's it's been a. real it it's been a continued shot. upward and now we're kind of leveling. off a little bit maybe a dip here or. there and that feels scary but as Brock.

said the the arc of the universe is long. but it bends toward justice. It means. that you don't get to the place in a. straight direct route. That there are. bends and curves along the way. And we. may be in a time where we're. experiencing a bit of a bend, a bit of a. dip, but we're still moving forward. And. that is true. That's not like that's. factual, right? Um, as Barack says all. the time, if you could pick any time in.

human history to be alive, when you. think of disease and poverty and science. um, and equality and openness and. access, would you pick any other time to be. alive. than right now? I know I wouldn't. knowing what you we can fantasize about. Hogwarts and No, I you know I don't even. know what what time that took place. because that's not a real.

>> I do fantasize a real story, >> right? >> But there was a lot of stuff that was. broken that we didn't have that we. didn't learn and we've learned it now. and and we're struggling to get to that. next phase. But that struggle doesn't. mean that we we we're not making. progress. The other thing that I will. say is like I my experiences. throughout my life particularly as first. lady I have seen this country up close.

I really I've been to many towns and. communities, mourned losses, been on military bases, um you know, been in homeless shelters, have seen. great joys and great pains. But rarely am I disappointed as a whole. with who we are as a people. Like that. is my experience. cuz I've gotten to be out there in a way.

that most people, let alone most. Americans, don't. We live in our little. corners of the world. We live on our. blocks in our neighborhoods. That's how. we are. We're humans. We are packed, you. know. We live in our small tribes. That's how we are. And we don't know. about other tribes, right? We we know. what we know. Um, I've had the chance to. experience other tribes and I don't care. what your political affiliation, what. religion, we're all really we really are.

wanting and moving towards the same. thing. You know, we want to we want to. live in communities where we get along. You know, we want our kids to be safe. and have a good education. We want them. to maybe be a little bit better off than. we have we were. But people aren't. fundamentally greedy. You know, my. father was a working-class guy. He never. wanted to be a millionaire. He ne never. wanted to be a tech giant or an. influencer. You know what my dad was, which was like most men, black, white,

blue, green. He wanted to be able to pay. his bills and feed his kids and take. care of his family and maybe have health. care. You know, he's like he wasn't. competing to be the richest of the rich. In fact, he was like, "You can have. that. That seems complicated, right? I'm. good." To me, that's most Americans. And. we we can get there cuz people most. people don't want that much. But we do.

have to support each other. You know, we. do have to protect one another and we. have to, you know, have policies and. principles that protect the greater. good. And I think with the right. leadership, we're right we're right. there. you know, when it when it doesn't. feel fair. People aren't happy, you. know, they don't they're not they don't. feel comfortable watching other people's. pain. I know that about this country. It's just a question of how do we get. get out of this and it's complicated and.

we like answers that are quick and easy, but most of the stuff is really, really. hard and it takes some time. I don't. know if that's hopeful, but to me it is. It is. It is all possibility. It is. hopeful. I think. it's it's what we needed to hear because. I agree with the immediiacy. Everyone. now is looking for such. answer immediately or else they're just. like so we're doomed. It's over. And I.

didn't work. >> Yeah. And I think my last question when. I was thinking about that is yes. At. first I was kind of talking about women, but like. it our world does feel or our country. does feel very divided today. That. that's a fact, right? It. >> some people we can't even look at each. other anymore. >> Yeah. >> And the hate and disgust and vitrial. It's so bitter. Like it it it's the. divide is so big. It almost feels. unfixable.

And sometimes I think it feels like. we've turned away from seeing people's. humanity. that it almost feels like to the point. that we've off like almost lost our own. humanity cuz we can't relate. We can't. see even if we are divided on what side. we're on. And so to leave us with this I. guess and I know it's you'd be like well. do you have 10 hours but [laughter]. in in the opposite of what you just said. where I'm like can you give us a quick. answer Michelle? Um, can you though.

somehow. explain in your opinion how you think we. begin to repair not only what we have. lost. >> but create a new future that is actually. inclusive, equal and respectful of each. other cuz right now it does not feel. like we are close to that. And don't you. get a sense that people are not content. in that? >> Yeah. >> Right. So let's, you know, I think more. people are starting to be outspoken.

about it and realizing is this what we, >> you know, and a lot of people are like, I didn't sign up for this. That is us. speaking. That is us, you know, that's. our real hearts kind of coming to the. fold. I'd like to think, you know, it, you know, didn't happen right away, but. it it's not like it's been a long long. time. We don't we're not like I just if. everybody looks inside this isn't what. we wanted. We want parts of it. There's.

some things we want that mix didn't work. but this I don't think we're we're happy. in this state. And I think that's a good. sign, you know? I mean, if if everybody. were like, "Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, I feel. great. Merry Christmas." Right. I mean, maybe I'd be like, "Okay." Right. But, you know, I'm assuming in your. conversations. people are starting to really we're. figuring out what is it that we do want.

You know, we were defining a lot. I. don't want that and I don't want that. But the work is well, what do we want? And I do think I don't think that this. young generation wants to go back, have. less freedoms, less possibilities of who. they can be in the world, who they can. marry, who they can love, who's in and. who's out. I, you know, I I just think. we've come too far to go that far back.

That's what that's that's what I I have. faith and I'm choosing to have faith, you know. Um, and so that those are. choices. And now for all our listeners, it's like now we've got to do the work. to look inside and figure out the parts. of this that are working and what isn't. We have to really start having. conversations about that. um that that. that's hard to do at a time when, you. know, our our algorithms are feeding us.

what we want to hear. But now we know. that. Now we're aware. It's like, okay, you can't just get your information from. your phone or your TikTok because it's. feeding you yourself. And so if you want. to learn something else, you may have to. talk to people. We may have to start. coming out of our phones and back into. communities. And we have to give each. other the benefit of the doubt. takes a. little time because we've been so mad, but it hasn't been that long. It hasn't. it hasn't been that long. So, we we can.

remember what it felt like when we felt. more connected. It's such a great point and I think. I think that's why I just was so excited. to talk to you today because I feel like. especially understandably young people I. think have just like an aversion to. politics right now. It's just like, oh. my god, it's all this like marketing and. propaganda and like. >> and then again with social media, we've. lost the way we're. >> we don't really know who to follow right. now. We don't know who to listen to.

right now. And so. >> that's goes back to the beginning of. this interview to close it out. It's. like I knew that we could have fun. I. know you're funny. >> and I know we would have a good time, Michelle. Okay, trust me. It's like. round two. You'll come back again one. day, but it's like we could have fun, but we needed you. I needed to hear from. you and we needed to absorb this right. now because I just felt it and I try to. have such a pulse with my audience on. what they're needing and I felt this. It's like going into this new year, we.

need this fresh perspective and so I. genuinely cannot thank you enough for. gracing me with your time. I know you. are beyond busy, but this. >> but let me let me say, Alex, that part. of the solution are folks like you. young. You're still to me, you're young. You're a baby and I it's like proud. baby. Way to go. Um [laughter]. but you you you've evolved. >> Yeah. >> And you're building you understand the. power that you have to have different.

conversations and you know, you've got. this amazing audience. They love you. They're, you know, they're intrigued by. you and there's a reason for that. So. that's power. And now you're in the you. you're in the you're in the power seat. So what do you do with that? You know, how do you how do you you know take what. you've learned or you're learning and. you know about the folks who follow you. and help them see more and see things.

differently and you're doing just that. People are listening, right? You know, they may come in for the burger, but. they leave with they leave with a carrot. [laughter] carrot of wisdom. Um, and. that's because you're choosing, you. know, to really think about your. platform and modeling something new. And. that's what it's all about. Um, look, I. love talking to people, but I I'm I also.

don't want to be talking to people. forever. It's like your generation. It's. time for you all to sit in these seats. and get right what we didn't get right. And it's okay for us to admit that our. generation, we figured a lot of stuff. out, but we didn't fix it. And that's. not what the it it's a it's a marathon. It's a relay race. I'm passing the baton. to you, my friend. [snorts] Um, and you. can do it.

[laughter]. >> Maybe a couple more side conversations. just to like give me a little bit more. We'll keep talking, [laughter] but. >> we'll stay in touch. We'll stay in. touch. >> But I am I am uh proud of what what. you're you're building and how you're. using um your your space and that's. that's going to make a difference. So, keep doing what you're doing. This has. been so much fun. And I'll talk to. Barack and make sure that you know next. time I come and you know you want to.

talk about option one. Any. >> Barack [laughter]. option one and the headlines from this. cannot be as crazy as what option one. would be. So anything you're stressed. about PR-wise, babe, don't worry. >> It'll be fine. You know, it's right. there. [laughter]. >> Michelle Obama, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It was honor having you on. color. >> It It's great spending time with you. Thank you for having me and more to. come. >> More to come. >> More to come. [laughter].

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