Kerry Washington: Power, Perfection & Olivia Pope

Hi Daddy Gang, before we get into. today's conversation, I just want to. share a content warning. This episode. includes discussions of eating disorders. and suicidal ideation. If you or someone. you love needs support, we have included. resources in the show notes. Please take. care while you are listening to this. week's episode. Love you guys. What is up Daddy Gang? It is your. founding father Alex Cooper with Call. Her Daddy.

>> [music]. >> Kerry Washington, welcome to Call Her. Daddy. >> Thank you. I can't believe I'm here. No, like, okay, I need to take a second to. just fan girl for 2 seconds. Oh my god. I This is a full circle moment for me. because growing up in Pennsylvania, >> my mom and I would bond Scandal, obsessing over Olivia Pope. >> that. >> But you really brought this woman to. life who was so powerful and bold and. brilliant and unapologetic in a way that.

I felt like I hadn't seen on television. before and it was such a bonding. experience for my mother and I cuz she. was like, you can be like that and you. can do those things. So. >> Okay, I'm going to cry already. We're. like 2 seconds in because. So, I feel like I know your mom because. of your documentary and I think your. parents are such a powerful example of. what real loving parenting looks like. The way that they give you permission to. be you and then like stood by you.

through your hardest I mean, I learned. so much about being a mom watching your. documentary. So, I love that you guys. bonded watching this show. I love that. you guys bonded watching this. >> and be like at home screaming like, Brian, [laughter] did you hear Kerry. Washington just say my name? Well, because they're they really they. really gave you They have given you. permission that you have then like taken. on I mean, you are your own beast. I. don't want to take anything away from. you but without them, like I couldn't. have achieved what I have achieved. And. so to yes, have a mother that was.

watching with me being like look at this. woman, look what she is embodying and. what she's doing. To now sit across from. you, it's very surreal for me. So thank. you for taking time out of your day to. join me on this show. This is an honor. Getting right into it though because. speaking of her being so bold and. obviously you are also in your own right. bold. But like. when you first took on Olivia Pope, which is something very big to take on. >> Yeah. Did you realize how much that role. was going to shift the conversation.

around women on television at the time? So, yes and no. Like I. all of the press when Scandal came out, a very big portion of the press when. Scandal came out was about the fact that. it had been almost 40 years since a. black woman had been the lead on a. network drama. And I was I think 37 at. the time. So in my lifetime I had never. seen it. A lot of my peers we'd never. seen it. And so there was all of this. talk about how historic the show was. We didn't know if the show was going to. work. We didn't know if anybody would.

watch the show. But that kind of. pressure around it I felt like if we. don't win, it might be another 40 years. before a woman of color has the chance. to be the number one on a show. >> But that's a lot of pressure to also put. on yourself. But also. again, it was an exercise of like really. trying to be clear about what I can. control and what I can't. Like I cannot. control whether people turn on their. televisions on Thursday night and watch. my show. What I can control is. my work ethic, like pouring my heart.

into it, leaving it all out on the. court, like doing everything that I can. do to make it great. And also on the. marketing side, like we had that whole. idea to live tweet the show. Like I can. do everything in my power to try to make. it a success. But in the end I can't. control what happens. >> point. And in those beginning days, like. what qualities. did you love about her when you first. read the material? So, when I first read it, I I literally. threw the script across the room cuz I. was like, this is me. Like, it felt like.

it was written for me. It was um but. also like there were 20 other actresses. that felt the same way, so I had to. audition multiple times. But, it I think. what I loved about her was It's so funny. cuz this is very related to the show I. have coming out now as well. What I. loved about her was that she had the. presentation of power. Like, she. performed. power in the world, and she was very. powerful. But, also behind closed doors, there was this contradiction of being.

like. so heartbroken and like her personal. life was a mess, just a [ __ ] mess. >> Just a little bit. >> Yes. And so, that that dynamic, that. duality, I really identified with. I. really identified with like the. presentation of self versus the truth of. self. I love that, too, because I agree, which we're going to get to your new. show. It's like. the presentation of a woman, most people. [clears throat] just take that at face. value. >> Yeah. And it's like, that's never It's. never as it seems. >> more complicated and cool than that. We. have more going on.

>> Please. Of course, we do. [laughter] Um. in what ways did she challenge you in. those beginning days? Well, I. I think she taught me a lot about. leadership. Because the character was the leader, you know, she had her own company, she. was the leader of all the gladiators, she was the most powerful woman in the. White House, um. and in real life, I was number one on. the call sheet and eventually a producer. on the show. And so, I think she really. taught me a lot about what it looks like.

and feels like to be the lead character. both on and off screen. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. In a way, how. empowering because sometimes I feel like. as a woman, like. that must have been kind of incredible. to be given the. >> Yeah, I was like role-playing. leadership. There was like like. literally like put on the shoes, put on. the suits, just like you have it's your. job to pretend that you have all the. power in the room. It was so such a. great exercise. It was like a training.

ground for me. What's also so crazy to me is as we're. talking about this, I know that. obviously this character became one of. the most beloved on television of all. time. You were going to completely quit acting. altogether almost before you started. Scandal. Kerry, what was going on in. your life? It's happened a couple of. times in my career. I because I love to. act. I love acting. I love. the research. I love like disappearing. into a character. I love figuring out. how she walks and what music she listens.

to and what perfume she wears and how. she speaks and how she stands. I love. all of that. The business around it, the. politics around it, I don't always love. Like the people feeling like they can. they have agency to tell you what to do. with your body or like the rejection and. the like all of that stuff is the. competitive nature of it at time. That. stuff I do not like. I don't like it. all. And and that's what I think has. been so fascinating whenever I've gotten. to sit down with actors and actresses. It's like. we see the glamorous parts. We see the. billboards. We see I'm binging Exactly.

And I'm like, I love this character. But. to get to that point, there is a lot. that goes into it. There's a lot of. executives that have a say. There's a. lot of marketing and branding and they. want you to be malleable. And so there. is also a dynamic at play where you're. kind of a pawn as an actor. And that and. until you garner some form of power, you. kind of have to play the game and you. have to decide at what expense and like. or what level are you willing to push it. to? >> draw the line, right? And I think for me.

that's part of why I really fell in love. with producing. But halfway through. Scandal, I started my production company. Simpson Street. We made a film called. Confirmation where I played Anita Hill. And that was like, oh, now I'm I get it. now. Because I actually don't have to. sit at home and wait for somebody to. invite me to a party. Like I can throw. my own party, which you know what I. mean, everybody. Like you create your. own opportunity. And that that has been. very freeing for me. >> And it is freeing and also to give. credit to like everyone needs the.

stepping stone of you have to go work in. the capacity that you see what you like. and you don't like. So that then as you. build your power and your name, you can. then be the person that maybe changes. things through your production company. and be like, I want things to run this. way because I've experienced the latter. >> Yeah. And I think as you know from your. journey, like you don't always know. exactly what you're doing in the. beginning. But I learned from. role-playing power in Olivia Pope, like. sometimes you just put the shoes on and. walk down the hall and you figure it out. along the way, right? Like you grab your.

Prada purse and you like you step into. it and you'll discover it along the way. If you ask for help and you're willing. to make mistakes and you just keep like. falling forward. Men are really allowed. to fall forward, fall upward, and I feel. like we have to give ourselves. permission to do that too. Like a. mistake is not the end. A mistake is an. opportunity to learn and grow, iterate, shift, move forward. >> nice hearing from someone like you who. again we see in media and you've had. such success. And that's why I wanted to.

kind of go back to those OG days of like. you walking into Shonda Rhimes' office. And you walk in and on the walls it says. Shondaland. her name. I was like, What. What were you expecting when you walked. in for that first meeting? I think I was. worried. I was nervous. I was nervous. because she had so much power. And like. to walk into I wasn't. comfortable yet in my power. So to sit. down with somebody who was comfortable. enough with her power to have the walls.

covered in her name. And like she was. very comfortable in her power. I think I was nervous about what that. would look like, what it would feel. like, if we would get along. Um. and it was amazing. I like 5 minutes. into the conversation, I was like, "I'm. obsessed with her. I want to live in. Shondaland. I want to be a citizen of. Shondaland." Obsessed. You know, she's. she's so generous and she's such a. genius. And I And you realize like, "Oh, society tells us that we should be.

intimidated or scared or uncomfortable. around a powerful woman, but there's. nothing dangerous about this." When you. think back to your time with Shonda and. you both now being such obviously. powerful women, is there like a memory or story that you. think really paints the picture of your. dynamic over those seven seasons. together? Mhm. Oh, there's so many, but. the one I that really comes to mind.

first is. when I was pregnant with my first child. that I had. So, my second child, but. first that I first that I birthed. Um. I was so nervous to tell Shonda because. I knew that it could be very disruptive. to our shooting schedule and to our work. environment, and I was determined to. work for as long as I could and. you know, to keep the show going and but. so I was worried. I was nervous to tell. her and I asked her to come to my. trailer.

And not only was she happy for me, like. she like actually jumped up and down. with joy in my trailer. Like, I I. couldn't believe it. She was. genuinely thrilled for me and committed. to helping me. do this in a healthy, sane, positive way. while also protecting our show. That is. so refreshing to hear cuz I think there. are very far and few between people who. have ever had that experience with their.

{quote} {unquote} boss or someone that. they're in a job with, right? Um and. also I think going back to what you had. said of like it had almost been 40 years. since we had seen a black woman have a. role lead in a drama network television. show. So this pressure on you, I. remember reading like the network said. casting you as a lead was a risk and. Shonda was so so um open about wanting. you as that person. Like how did those. comments affect both of you though? Mhm.

I can't speak for Shonda, but we knew that we we knew that we were. lucky to have each other. That we. you know, so often in these spaces. you're the only woman in the room or the. the only black woman in the room. And so. to be able to have each other and then. Judy Smith who inspired the character. and another really amazing writer in the. writer's room, Raamla Muhammad, who is. kind of we've grown up together because. she was a research assistant initially.

on Scandal and then I brought her with. me to Little Fires Everywhere and now. she's the showrunner on Reasonable. Doubt, which we produce. So she's that's. been also really special. >> yeah. So that that dynamic I think. Shonda and I were like we had each. other. We had each other's backs and. there was always a great deal of. respect. I knew she was my boss, but she. would also say to me like I want your. thoughts. But I would say like four things that I. loved about a script before I ever gave. any feedback that was to change. something, right? Like and I wasn't. manufacturing that. It was really like.

there's so much that I love about this. and also there's this one thing I'm. bumping on. And like. now obviously we know it's such a. success, but and and [clears throat]. in that moment hearing from executives. like this is a risk, yeah. then you have. success. Like was there any part of you. that. was so happy to be able to prove people. wrong? Like was there any element that. you were still looking a little bit back. to how they didn't potentially want you. in the beginning days? I think the thing that I felt most was.

excited that it wasn't going to be. another 40 years. Like, halfway through. Scandal, ABC launched How to Get Away. with Murder, and you had Quantico, which. was not a black woman, but a woman of. color, and you had Empire on another. network on Fox. Like, you had suddenly. networks were like, "Maybe it's not so. much of a risk. In fact, maybe we need. to find our black lead." Like, they were. really clued into the cultural value of. allowing black women to stand at the. center of a story. And I think it was so.

exciting for audiences, too. Like, there. was this mutual excitement. There were. people who loved the show because. suddenly they were seeing themselves on. television, and that was so fulfilling, and so just like, I felt so proud to be. offering my sisters that opportunity. And then there were all these people. that were like, "I knew Olivia Pope was. the black woman they were closest to in. their life." Like, they were being. allowed a window into the life of a. black woman that they didn't have any. black woman that they were that intimate. with. And both of those things were so.

exciting to me cuz they were both kind. of collapsing. the idea that there's a a group of. people that don't matter, right? What. you're essentially also saying is. Scandal opened the door in in a lot of. ways because it was like, had this not. yes been successful, you're right, it. could have been another 40 years, and. instead it actually propelled so many. shows to immediately get on air because. of its success. So, because of that, we. need to play a little rapid fire. >> Oh. Okay. Ooh. No pressure. Ooh.

I'll participate a little bit cuz, you. know, I also rewatched it recently, so. like, don't worry. Call Her Daddy is. brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one. finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest. Daddy gang, you could be. scrolling, sleeping, doing all the same. things that you're already doing, and. still making money, honey. That's the. whole idea behind investing, and the. sooner you invest, the more potential. you have to grow your money. And listen,

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Advisory services via SoFi Wealth LLC. What do you think was the worst crisis. you can remember that Olivia ever had to. clean up? I loved the very, very first crisis in. our pilot because I was like, oh, from. jump, this show is diving into issues. Like the fact that I was protecting a. member of the queer community in the. military. I was like, oh, we're not only. is she having an affair, not only is it. an interracial relationship, not only.

it's like also my client is gay. Oh, let's [ __ ] go. We're hitting it right. out the gate. Like this show, it's like. like it or leave it. >> Yes. Truly. No, I was thinking about. that, too, and then I was like, you know. what? I also would just have to go like. the election, Rig Gang. I mean, that. broke my heart. That broke my heart. I. of all the things and the case of. >> want to talk about that in the world we. live in right now. It's so scary. But. [clears throat] yes, but I was like. horrifying. Sitron and the defiance of. Ohio. [laughter]. I was stressed. Well, I think also.

Olivia getting kidnapped. That was. That's when I was like, what is. happening? >> Yeah, it was saving that hair was. insane. >> I just remember being like, why are they. doing this to her? >> [laughter]. >> Um, Fitz fix it. Um, okay. >> he tried. >> He did. In your opinion, what is the. most iconic Olivia Pope line of all. time? It has to be it's handled. It has to be. It's the one that gets quoted to me most. often. It's handled. >> agree. I also wrote down, I know this. isn't the most iconic, but I remember.

this cuz I was like, I wish I could have. said this to an ex-boyfriend. You said, "I'm not the girl the guy gets at the. end of the movie. I'm not a fantasy. If. you want me, earn me. Until then, we're. done.". >> [laughter]. >> I was like, why did I not use that on a. boy? Like that is goals. >> There's still time. >> Okay, fair. Well, I'm married, so that's. true. I'll tell I'll tell Matt if we're. in a fight one day. He's like, "What are. you talking about?" I'm [laughter] like, "You don't get it." Okay, what was the. most fun episode to film and why?

Oh, wow. Um. Anytime we had like big state galas. Like this is probably not a nice thing. to say, but actually the episode when. Fitz got shot was so much fun to shoot. Like that dress, I'm obsessed with that. dress. And it just was so dramatic and. the exteriors, it was just a really I. remember being in that hospital. We shot. at a hospital on location. It was a. truly this like very windy night. And so. I remember like the moving camera and. like the wind is blowing my hair and the. gown. It was like,

stunning. Also, I loved when you would wear gloves. and then gloves. You would go all out. Um, sometimes directors would be like, "Do you need gloves?" We'd be like, "Yes.". >> Yes. It needs to be so over the top. Olivia would. If you had to choose, Yeah. what was the hottest Olivia and. Fitz moment? If I had to choose, I think. I think the hottest Olivia and Fitz.

moment was the first time, and this was. Ava DuVernay's episode, the first time. we got to go to Vermont. I just think that house was so. beautiful, the like helicopter landing. on the lawn, the I think that whole. moment was just so beyond dreamy, and. you know, that we got to actually see. Vermont was pretty spectacular, which. was really Calabasas, not Vermont, but. Stop. >> [laughter]. >> Wait, stop. I'm like, you never told me. that. What are you talking about? Kerry, no. You're in Vermont. [laughter]. Oh my god. Making jam.

>> Oh my god, I can't unsee that now. Um, okay, you have your phone? Yes. Would. you call Tony and ask him what he thinks. his favorite go-to iconic romantic. moment of the two of you He might be on. set. >> Let's try it. >> Let's try it. >> If not, I'll tell you mine. Way less. interesting. >> Well, you have to tell me yours. regardless. He's going to think something's wrong. He's like, why is she calling? I only I. must know. Hi Kerry. >> Hi Tony. >> [laughter].

>> Um, I'm I'm in the middle of an. interview. Yeah. And I got dared to call you. >> [laughter]. >> But so I have to ask you a question. Are. you ready? Should I say, uh-oh? >> Yeah, you should always say, uh-oh. Where are you right now? Just give the. give the fans some context. Where are. you? >> I'm in Washington D.C. >> Of course you are. Uh, we're doing actually my kids are. here, and Jane's here. We're going to go. and take them see our show, Shid Joey. Oh, Tony's doing a show in D.C. at. Arena. Everybody should go see it. Okay.

Yes. Um, so [laughter]. so I have to ask you what you think the. hottest Olivia and Fitz moment on the. show ever was. Wow. >> [laughter]. >> Well, we had a few. We do have a few. >> [laughter]. >> I mean the one minute. I didn't say the. one minute. I probably should have said. one minute. Is that what you were going. to say? No, what were you going to say? I was thinking. >> [laughter]. >> having sex in an electrical closet. >> Oh, there's that one. That was like the.

somebody was getting baptized. Like what. if your children, right? We were such bad people. We were. My. favorite one minute was. sitting in your apartment. >> That that's the first one. The first one. minute. Yeah, the first one. Well, no. Well, in in chronological order, the. hallway. Yeah, but but on the show in. filming, it was in my apartment. >> [laughter]. >> I said I said Vermont. I was like the. first time we got to see Vermont. Oh, Vermont. Yeah, that was right. Yeah,

that was pretty good. That was one that. Ava directed, right? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, good memory. Thank you, Tony. >> All right, I'll let you go. I love you. madly. >> [laughter]. >> I've got I'm just in the middle of doing. Call Her Daddy. >> [laughter]. >> So, we called her daddy. We called Olivia's daddy. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. Bye. Love you. I'm having heart palpitations. [laughter].

I'm so happy he picked up. He's such a. busy person. I didn't expect him to pick. up. >> Tony being in DC right now telling us. that he loved [ __ ] in the electrical. closet. [laughter] Not that it really. happened. It's one of the very few. scenes that Olivia Pope wore a dress. because the way the scene was written, we had to like to in the closet had to. be a dress. So, it was like one of those. really like I guess for like events in. churches maybe she wears So, cuz it was. a baptism, so she had a dress on. So, then in the closet we could do what we. did in the closet. It's insane.

So, you two have stayed friends since? >> Yes, although it's hard for me to get. him on the phone cuz he mostly hangs out. with my husband, >> [laughter]. >> which is hilarious. So, like when he's. in New York, I'm like, "What are you. doing?" He's like, "Well, I'm seeing. Namdi tomorrow." I'm like, "Can I see. you?" But yes, we have We've all. remained friends. I just hiked with Katie Lowes last week. Like yeah. Do you think they made it in. the show at the end? I love I know it's very hard to end a. show. I love how the show ended with. them like seeing each other and just. that classic high. I think it's really.

sweet cuz it lets you kind of imagine. however you want it to be, but I know a. lot of people really hope for them that. they're in Vermont making jam and happy. and I was going to say one of my. favorite moments was I think it was one. of his one of his birthday dinners and. you guys meet out on the lawn and you're. like, "You cheated on your mistress with. your girlfriend or whatever." And he was. like, "Don't ever call yourself that.". And he said, um "I love you. I'm in love. with you. You're the love of my life.".

[laughter] And I the way he said it and. he's like, "You control me, my every. being.". >> me. Yeah, it's really It's a good one. >> me." I was like, [laughter] "Oh my god, Shonda, stop." Like I'm not okay. >> such a romantic. She's such an. incredible writer. I think she's It's It's a gift how she. gets to the thing that will make us all. like turn into a puddle. I'm not over. the heat just answered. I'm like I'm. like [laughter] blushing. I'm like And. hearing you two talk, I'm like, "Okay.". Okay, we're moving on. Um okay. What is a personal moment in your life.

you got a little clout because people. around you, your kids were there and. everyone thought you were Olivia Pope. They're talking you up as Olivia Pope. and your kids are like, "Oh mom, you're. actually cool." So, I would think I. would My kids do Let me be very clear. My kids do not think I'm cool. Let's just be very clear cuz they will. have like go on a national campaign to. refute me if I attempt to assert that. they think I'm cool. They do not think. I'm cool. But, they were My daughter So,

my daughter's first concert was T Swift. And which was very sweet. Uh this is my. younger daughter. And we went with her. older sister and a bunch of friends. But. then I was like, "Okay, Beyoncé's. performing in the same place later this. summer. Like as a black mom, there is no. way that I'm not letting you see a black. woman do in this space what Taylor Swift. did in this space." So, she wasn't Yeah, she was a little young cuz it was. Renaissance. So, she wasn't like a huge. She like knew Destiny's Child songs, but. she wasn't Renaissance wasn't really.

like her album. And she came. And when we were walking through the. crowd, people were like, "Olivia!" And. she was like, "Who is Olivia?" Like she. didn't She was like, "What Who do they. think you are? Like that is not your. name." And it was a little weird to her. how crazy people were going until. backstage at like the friends and family. recept for So, she loved the concert. Like that was the night I witnessed my. youngest daughter become a stan. Like a. Beyoncé beehive. Like she was like.

blown away. Yeah. And then Cowboy Carter. is her album. Like we went to We had a. girls' weekend in Vegas to see her. together. >> You're like, "You're welcome.". >> So, yes. >> I put you on. >> But that night we went backstage to like. the friends and family thing afterward. And she People were asking to take. pictures with me, which she thought was. really weird. And then she was like, "Well, can I get a picture with Bieber?". And I was like, "Hundo P.". >> [laughter]. >> I think that was like the one moment. where she was like, "My mom might be. slightly cool." Like for half a second.

>> strings for me. For a half a second. >> Okay, so you had some clout. >> For a minute. >> Clout with the kids. >> Yeah. It evaporated. >> do you believe Olivia Pope eventually. became the president of the United. States? Mm. Do you? I go back and forth because I. think a part of her was so. She of course she could be. Like if she. wanted to be she could have been. But. there was a part of her that just loved. her wine, her popcorn, hanging out, and.

she liked being behind the scenes in. moments. And so would she really want. the. fiasco that comes with? I don't know. I. think she's more of a behind the scenes. person. I do. And to clarify like I. would have voted for her. >> Oh. Definitely I would have. >> There's no better option. Absolutely. >> mental health. I'd vote for her today. I. [laughter] would vote for her 10 toes. down. 10 toes down. >> Just ready to go. I'd be phone banking, knocking on doors, I'd be doing it all. >> I'd be ready. I'd [laughter] be ready.

Um okay, are there any Scandal reboot or. movie conversations in the works? There. aren't. Although this joke about Chase. Infinity and Tariq being our children, this is like the joke that will not die. and I love it so much. Um they actually do like she has my. smile and Tariq has his smile. It's so. absurd. >> It is kind of weird. >> Um so and we actually just started a. family text thread. >> [laughter]. >> Dad. Tariq texted me yesterday and was. like, "Chase, I don't I know you don't have Kerry's.

number but now it's the first So I was. like, "Do I bring Tony into this text. thread?" It's hilarious. Yeah. We can all pray. Yeah. Call Her Daddy is. brought to you by Clorox Disinfecting. Wipes. We all know how good it feels to. reset our space, okay? Whether it's. actually messy or you're just. overwhelmed and you need something in. your life that you feel like you can get. under control. Sometimes a quick little. spring cleaning is the best way to get. back on track and for me that starts and. stops with Clorox Disinfecting Wipes, okay? They are quick and easy plus the.

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One of the most impactful moments on. Scandal was when Olivia Pope had an. abortion. And when I interviewed Shonda, she told me that. the network pushed back on that. storyline, and she really had to fight. to keep it in. >> We didn't know if we were going to air. that night. Like down to the wire. I was like, "What. are they going to do? Are they going to. like show reruns? Are they like what are. you Because they were locked in the. disagreement about what it could and. could not be." So you literally sat.

there and waited to see if it aired. >> Yeah. What did it feel like for you to. be at the center of that moment, publicly and privately with the network. and everything? I was so proud. I was so proud of Shonda. I was so proud. of our whole cast. I was so proud to. have shot that scene. There had been. characters on television who had had. abortions, but it was the first time. that you got to watch a woman actually. in the procedure. Um and obviously there. was nothing graphic about the scene, but. it was about her inner life and her.

emotional reality in that process. And I. just, as somebody who had had an. abortion, and as somebody who has fought. for reproductive rights my whole life, it feels like I was so so proud. >> Yeah. I know I I was going to say in. your memoir, like you open up about your. abortion in your late 20s, and so many. people connected to you. But going back. to that moment, like what emotions did. you feel not only writing about your. experience, but then also releasing it.

to the world? Okay, so first I want to. say. that I watch a lot of clips of the show, like a lot of people like I catch parts. of the. the episode that I love the most that I. watched beginning to end was your trip. to North Carolina. And you say in that episode, if there's. one episode you're going to watch, it. should be this one. So, I just want. everybody who's listening, if you have. not watched the North Carolina episode, pause this one. We're not going to go. anywhere. We will be here. Pause this.

episode, go listen to and watch the. North Carolina episode where you are so. brave and that work you do is so. important in that episode. And then you. can come back and we'll be here. >> it right below. Go ahead. We'll be right. here. So, welcome back. >> you. >> [laughter]. >> Now we're here. You're educated. Perfect. Let's go. Um you see what a bad. ass she is. Um so, okay. I when I was. writing my memoir, I did that thing that. people tell you to do of like, just. write everything and then you can decide. later what's really going to go in. Cuz. if I wrote the book thinking about. people reading it, I would have written.

one word. Like there would have I would. not have gotten past the first page. So, I did a lot of writing of just like. vomiting on the page of experiences and. I remember the morning that I was like, I'm going to write about this thing. And I wrote about my abortion experience. and I was like, that's never going to be. in the book. And I like put it in the. file of things that will not be in the. book. And then when I handed in my book to my. editor, there was a line later in the. book about my abortions and miscarriages. and she was like, hey, like circled it, can we get more context here? Like you.

just dropped this in the book, but you. don't share about your miscarriages or. abortions. And I was like, oh god. And I. had to like file through my computer. to try to find it. Um. and then having some distance from it, rereading it, I thought, I want to share. this. I do want to share this because a. lot of what my abortion story is about. is my personal loss of privacy. And it. is our right to privacy that has been. taken away from us. That is how Roe v.

Wade got. reversed. And I just think I'm not a bad person. because I've had an abortion. And you. get to disagree with anybody gets to. disagree with me. Absolutely. You don't. You don't think I did the right thing. with my body, you are allowed to believe. that. I don't love the judgment, but I. make room for it cuz everybody is who. they are. What you can't do, what I. don't want you to do, what I'm going to. fight till the day I die to make sure. you can't do, is to make decisions about. what I do with my body. Like your. opinion is yours, but my body, my bodily.

autonomy, my ability to decide how and. when I start a family, that needs to be. mine. >> Yes. It's. so sad cuz it sounds so simple. >> so simple. >> it's not. For you, Carrie, like. you felt. like you said ready to tell it, but were. you nervous at all about the reaction? I. was. I don't know if my parents even. knew at that point that I had had an. abortion. My husband knew, but I I don't.

I know there were friends and family. members who didn't know. So I was. nervous, but I also felt like, I mean, I'm just What's the point in At this. point I was writing this book like. really revealing myself. I talked about. my eating disorder, I talked about. my genetic background, I talked about. sexual abuse. I mean, I was like, why. would I hold this back? Right? Like what. am I What would I be protecting in. holding this back? And I think there's. our reproductive lives are so shrouded. in secrecy. We don't talk about abortion. or miscarriages or adoption or.

infertility or even our periods or. menopause. And I just think we have to. take the cloaks off of our reproductive. lives. Like our bodies are our bodies. Abortion is health care. Infertility. treatment is health care. Like this is. It doesn't have to be filled with shame. It doesn't. And I think what is so hard. though is because it is and that is the. stigma, it does take strong women like. yourself who come forward knowing there. is going to be backlash, knowing there. will be judgement, knowing that there.

are people in the world that may never. look at you the same. You can lose fans. because of this, because it is such a. definitive line in the sand for some. people. So, it does. it it hurts me to know that it's also at. the cost of so many women having to be. so strong in the capacity that they. shouldn't have to be. You know, I was thinking about it. You. shot that scene for Scandal and you had. not at that time publicly talked about. your abortion yet. Was it. triggering at all to film that scene?

Mhm. I don't think it was triggering to film. it. I do think it was cathartic. It would It like allowed me to. sometimes. in my work as an actor, what I'm doing. is. like what looks like truth on screen is. often because an actor will try to find. the closest truth that I know to what. the character is going through and share.

that through the character's body and. through her words. So, what. the gift that I got in filming that. scene was I got to share my truth. through Olivia Pope. I got to say like. this is something that happened to me. This is something that I chose. This is. something that I've lived through and. I'm not going to hide it anymore. Even. though I was hiding it, like on some. like deeper emotional level, I was able. to say like I'm going to step into the. truth of this moment and share it with.

all of you. So, you just showed up every. day that you were filming that just. yes, keeping it to yourself and just. pouring it into the work. >> Yeah. And at the end of that, it just. fully felt cathartic. There was no. >> It felt like I had less to hide. That's. the healing that often happens through. characters is that I feel like. and you must have felt this also doing. your documentary that like the other. side of it, which was your real real. real truth, on the other side of it I. just often when a character is really.

when I'm lucky a character lets me share. a truth through her and on the other. side of it I feel a little bit healed. It's beautiful. I. I know that you also wrote which I think. is so important to point out because to. women who are listening to this this is. probably a very very relatable feeling. of the shame and embarrassment that you. were feeling leading up to the procedure. and the loneliness, right? If you could. go back what kind of.

empathy or just kindness do you wish you. could have shown yourself? It took me a long time to forgive myself. not for having the abortion. I really knew that that was the right. choice for me. But it took me a long. time to forgive myself for getting. pregnant. And. I learned a lot about myself about. I learned a lot about what was going on.

for me mentally and emotionally that I. allowed that to happen. And. it really invited me to figure out how. to stand up for myself and my boundaries. more, how to be more honest with myself. in the moment and how to stay in my. body. Like I have a lifetime of. disembodiment of like based on sexual. abuse, based on all kinds of stuff like.

of leaving my body and I feel like so. much of my life and my work as an actor. has been about trying to figure out how. to be back in my body and live and stay. present in my body. And that experience. was really like a line in the sand for. me of like. this is the situation I have found. myself in because I I do not know how to. stay in my body and in my truth. I mean. that's so even even hearing you say that.

Carrie, it's so one yes like hard but. also two I can't help but be like yes. but it does take two and so I can't help. but be like oh but give yourself even. more grace in that but I'm hearing what. you're saying also which I think is one. of the most. terrifying and scary and unsaid things. that women go through which is. [clears throat]. why didn't I like what. >> for myself. >> I say no? Why wasn't I more clear? Why. wasn't I And then how did I get lost in. the moment? Like I've I was at that.

point I had been a sex educator for like. decades I was for over a decade because. I started doing that work sex education. work when I was like 13. So I. I was like I knew better. Like what how. am I getting swept up? Like what what is. going on? But it's always like people. pleasing, perfectionism, um. disembodiment, all of that. And I think it's so much. easier we can read something on a paper, we can ingest it in a lecture but when. you are in a moment and you are living.

it and that is why unfortunately really. mainly primarily only women will be able. to relate to this when people are like. well why don't you just say no? It's. like when you are in that moment and. there is so much going on in your brain. and not going on in your body because. you're disassociating and you're like. removing yourself it is close to. impossible It's very hard. to be able to. create a strong boundary because a lot. of the times it is easier to just go. with what is happening whether it's for.

safety or whatever it be. So you writing. about that I think was just so. powerful because it also is like there. is kind of not an immediate answer in. those moments. It's just giving yourself. grace of like. you felt guilt after that of you took. primarily the responsibility of getting. pregnant. And then what was the process. of. undoing that guilt for yourself? I think that thing you talked about. around like learning how to not.

disassociate with a lot of therapy, a. lot of work, a lot of introspection. Um. but it's been a journey for me of. staying in my body, like the healing. around the eating disorder, all the work. around like how do I stay in my body so. that I can make choices that are right. for me. I guess the the choice to have. an abortion I was so clear. I was like, I am in this moment I am in I'm now in. my body, I'm in the truth of what's. happening in my body, and I need to make. a very clear decision, and I knew it was. right for me, and I was like.

I I want to be in this state more often, if not all the time, right? I want to I. want to be with myself. Wow. And I. remember when you wrote, um I know. legally clinics have to ask the. questions to make sure that this is the. right choice for you. And in your book. you describe this as having to. essentially defend your choice. for an abortion. How did it feel in that. moment to have to justify yourself? Just. to get yourself to that point feeling. confident in yourself, knowing this is.

what the right this is is for your body, and then someone looking at you being. like let's walk through, are you sure? How did that feel? I think it. contributed to the guilt because I I. wasn't. I was at a place I was at an age where I. could have chosen to have a child. I was. in a relationship where I could have. chosen to have a child. I was like there. were lots of factors that. it wasn't a life or death situation for. me. It wasn't the case of rape or.

incest. It was like it's so I could have. made that choice. I just knew it wasn't. the right choice for me. And that feels really specific and and. it leaves room for a lot of people to. disagree. It can seem selfish. It can. seem a lot of things. But it you know, you get this one life. and I I knew that this was the right. choice for me. What do you wish more. people understood about the realities. women face when it comes to abortion?

I think that it's not an easy decision. That by the time a woman makes the. decision to have. an abortion, it's never an easy. decision. Um and so. I think we need to give people grace. around making the choices that are right. for us in our life. But I think also one of the things I. love loved about your episode was when. you challenged that guy around like, well, shouldn't young men just get. vasectomies and then like when they're. ready to have babies, we can reconnect. them and.

I think that all of the onus gets put on. women. Is it's just so unfair. It's so unfair. and the minute that I tried to engage. him in the conversation and include. them, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like, but what laws. >> But you're legislating my Yeah. reproductive organs, so why can't I. legislate yours? >> Why are there no laws around men's. bodies? And it's like, well, hold on. You're like, and so I agree. It's like. I think where we're at right now is. it feels impossible to but finding a way.

to bring people to the table to have a. conversation um because we're sitting. here right now and there are women that. don't have the same right that you did. in the moment to make the decision. >> don't have as many rights as I did at. their age, neither one of them. That's a. travesty to me. And you know, if this. was really about. saving lives, then we would do a better. job taking care of the children that. exist in the world right now. Like if.

everybody who believes that abortion. should be illegal was also like really. ready to come forward with supporting. education and healthcare and resource. like resources for families to be able. to thrive, we could maybe understand. this conversation a little bit more, but. it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't. feel like it's about care for a child. It feels like it's about control of a. woman. Um. and maybe control of children, too. So, I I just um. I think actually the real answer to your.

question is like. we don't have to be silent about this. I. know that we we are in a moment where we. have fewer rights than we ever have had. when it comes to our bodies, but we. still have a lot of rights. We have the. right to free speech. We have the right. to be able to protest. We have the right. to vote. And we have to like take. advantage of the rights that we have to. try to grow some of the ones that we've. lost. That hopefully is what people can. understand we're saying is like if it is. not the right choice for you Yeah.

That's fine. That's fine. >> That's the beauty of living in a free. country. We're a democracy. You get to. like make choices for yourself. So, let's. make sure that is applicable to every. single woman on this Earth. Um. thank you for talking with me about that. cuz I just think there's so many women. that listen to this and it is important. topic especially right now. I want to. pivot to your family. Yeah. Because you. >> part of me. Yes. And something that, you. know, you referenced earlier and you. mentioned in your memoir, um a few years.

ago you revealed that your dad was not. your biological father because your. parents used a sperm donor. Just take me to that moment of like, how. did they break the news to you and what. was that conversation like, Kerry? So, when Scandal ended, I bumped into Henry. Louis Gates, who is an incredible. professor who has this television show. called Finding Your Roots. And we've been friends for a long time, and I'd always wanted to do Finding Your.

Roots, but I never had time cuz of. Scandal. And he was like, I read that. it's going to be Scandal's last season. I said, yeah. He said, will you come do. the show? And I was like, absolutely. Like, this is my moment. My mom is so. interested in genealogical stuff with. our family, and I know my dad will be. into this. This will be so great. So, I call up my parents, and I'm like, I bumped into Skip Gates. I'm going to. do Finding Your Roots. We're going to. learn everything we can possibly learn. about our family. And my dad started having panic attacks. And I couldn't figure it out. My mom was. like, that's great. And I was like,

okay, well, she's always a little, you. know, like, [laughter] she's a little. she's My mom is not the most emotionally. expressive person. That's how I'll say. it. So, I was like, all right, well, I. think it's great, and maybe she she. thinks it's great, too, and we'll get. there. My dad was not happy. And I was like, what are you afraid of? Like, you're. worried that you're going to find out. like your great-grandmother was like, um, I don't know, like, had a brothel, or. like, what are like, what's the what. what could possibly be the issue? Um, so I offered my parents, because. Skip Gates is closer to their age.

generationally, and so I was like, do. you want to talk to Professor Gates? And. like, maybe he can help calm you guys. down, and. so basically, this Harvard professor. knew about my genetics before I did, because my parents were like, "What if, hypothetically speaking, >> [laughter]. >> And you're like, what? she happened to. be born from a sperm donor. What like, would that come up? And he was like, definitely, it would, and you need to. >> tell her. >> [sighs]. >> And they were like, no, no, no, no, no, and he was like, he said, thank God, he.

said to them, that in all of his years of doing the. show, when this has this kind of thing. has come up, that people's greatest. regret is not being able to know when. everybody's still alive, because you don't get to deal with it, and move through it, and like, get. closer in the truth of it. So, um, so I got this text from my mom. that my parents wanted to talk, which. never happens. I was like I mean it has. happened once or twice like when my. mother first told me she had cancer or. when my dad was in trouble with the law. Like I was like this is not good news.

Um and I went to the apartment the. apartment in LA and um. and they like fumbled through sharing. this news with me. And I remember it. like the it was like. I don't know. It was like that scene in. Alice in Wonderland where she's like. free falling through the characters and. the the props. I just was like what is. happening? Nothing felt solid. I felt. kind of dizzy. I was like is this like a. weird prank? Like I just I I could I was. so confused and also at the exact same.

time I felt like yes, this is it. Like. this is the this is the puzzle piece. that I've been trying to solve for my. entire. life. This is why I've this is part of. why I've had such a hard time being in. my body and staying in my body. It's. because my body has been a lie to me. from the moment I came to this planet. Like from the moment I was born the two. people who love me the most have lied to.

me about who I am and about where this. body comes from. And so I had an. opportunity to make peace with my body. for the first time and with my the truth. of who I am and and like how I'm here. I. mean. It was really cool. >> going to say like incredible and so. disorienting. Like 40 years of your life. you believe your father is your. biological blood father. They tell you. this. Like how did you even begin as a.

human being to process something like. that? My first concern. >> [snorts]. >> My first concern was my dad. Because I remember looking at him and he. was devastated. Like I could tell he. felt like he lost me. And so it took me a while to actually. even figure out how I was feeling about. it cuz I realized very quickly that my. parents needed my help in this moment. That they were courageously stepping.

into the scariest thing they had ever. done. And that they thought that they. were going to. explode our family. That they were going. to destroy us as a family. Cuz I'm an. only child, so it's just the three of. us. And so. I really the my first concern was like. to sit next to my dad and to look at him. and to say, I just want you to know. >> [sighs]. >> that I love you. And that every day that I've said I love. you up until now, for you, it's been on.

the condition of a lie. Because you think I love you because I. think you're my dad. I said, "Today, you. get to know that I love you. unconditionally cuz I know you're not my. biological father and I still love you.". That's it. Oh my god. >> [laughter]. >> It was really. powerful. >> imagine the. relief, but also did you ever get to. talk about like did they do this out of. did they say because they thought they. were protecting you? >> Yes. Yeah, I mean at the time, nobody.

knew 40 plus years ago that there was. going to be a 23andMe or an. ancestry.com. Like that that was like. science fiction. That was like the. Jetsons. Like what do you like what? So. so it was really. I think they were really protecting me. They were trying to make me not feel. othered, not feel different, not feel. weird. Like it wasn't like today. You. and I have friends who like go to a. sperm bank and look through a binder and. like choose what degree the person has. and like what color eyes that the donor.

will have, but this was like the wild. west. My mother would like got a phone. call like we have it, it's warm, come to. the office. Like she had no idea who the. person was. My parents just said like. please let him be healthy and let him be. black because they didn't want anybody. to know, so they wanted to keep it a. secret. So, it just it I think it was so. sure again shrouded in secrecy and shame. and also my dad's shame about not being. able to provide. Like it was about. protecting him and protecting me and So. much emotions all around. >> Yeah. Although not the same, this makes.

me think about your new show Imperfect. Women, which touches on secrets and how. they impact relationships, right? >> Yeah. How did you use what you went. through in your life. >> Mhm. to inform this character that you. just went on to play? It's such a good. question. You're so good at this. >> [laughter]. >> I'm having the time of my life. >> Surprises to no one. Um So, I I think. one of the biggest things that shocked. me when I went on book tour was.

that every single person at every book. signing when they were taking a picture. with me was like, "My family has a. secret." Like they were they were. sharing their family And I started. realizing like, "Oh, every family has a. secret. We all have them.". >> All of us. It's part of what defines us, right? It's like the moment that we. reveal our truth and how our family. deals with it is a big part of what. defines who we are and who our family. is. So, I have really gravitated toward. I mean, yeah, actually even before. knowing like Reese Witherspoon sent me. Little Fires Everywhere before my.

parents told me. And in Little Fires. Everywhere, I play a woman who. volunteers to be a surrogate and then. does not tell my daughter who her father. is. Like it is so absurd that this was. the project that Reese sent to me. When. I sent my mom the book, my mother was. like, "Oh.". >> [laughter]. >> Wait. Like in hindsight, I like I watch. my life now like the way you watch one. of those movies where you're like, "Oh, there were all these Easter eggs, but I. didn't know they were Easter eggs in the. moment.". >> I watched that show. I love that show. I.

completely forgot. >> crazy? It's so wild. >> Your mom like freaking out when you sent. her the script. She's like, "So. gorgeous, have fun." That sounds so. great. Totally. So, but also it was such. a blessing because by the time we were. filming that show, I did know. And then. I actually got to step into my parents'. shoes because I had this beautiful young. actress Lexi Underwood saying like, "Tell me who my father is." And me. through tears saying, "I can't. I. can't." Like I had to really. really step into in a very compassionate.

way understanding my parents' fear and. why they couldn't tell me. So, that was. such a great. >> You found this out while you were. filming. >> process of developing that show. I'd. already signed on to it and and then. they told me and then I went to go make. it, which is insane. >> Oh, you're like, "This role is meant for. me.". >> I'm in. Isn't that crazy? >> Oh, wow. >> when we were doing in developing. Imperfect Women, I realized like this is. something that I a theme that I return.

to again and again. The kind of. presentation of self versus who we. really are because for so much of my. life, even when I didn't know that I was. born from a donor, I knew that something. was up. Like I knew that there was. something some weird missing puzzle. piece in my family. I didn't know what I. didn't know, but I knew we weren't real. with each other. I knew that we were not. 100% transparent. I talk about it in the. book as like a veil. There was like a. veil between my parents and I. >> You want to keep a secret, you tell my. mother and father because [laughter] my. mother is has four sisters, none of them.

knew. Her mother like no one knew. Not a. single soul. So, also it was so freeing. for her to be like, "I don't have to. keep this secret anymore." Yeah. Oh, wow. >> But so so for Imperfect Women, I really. gravitated. toward this project because I was like, "This is a a series about. about women who keep secrets from each. other even though they love each other. so so much." It's three friends who. adore each other and they want to be in. their truth, but because we have this.

pressure in society and culture to be. perfect, they keep things from each. other, really important things from each. other. >> And it's like. why I love when shows like this explore. that concept is because the the word. secret understandably has such a. negative connotation, but it is so. refreshing even when we're talking about. what happened with you, with your. parents. It's like when you explore the. why, there's so much underneath of. secrets that a lot of it comes from the. person.

the people that they love. >> Yes. >> And really it's like most of the time. the truth is always the answer, but but. we can empathize with the people that. keep the secrets when you actually get. underneath the why of why they genuinely. thought it was the right. >> It's terrifying. I think in the end. we're all afraid that we're not going to. be loved, that we're not going to be. accepted, that we're not going to belong. to the people that we love the most if. we let them know who we really are. And. so I think watching people grapple with. that and and be willing to unpack that.

is so captivating cuz it's terrifying. for all of us. >> It is and it's so universal just like. the fear of rejection. You referenced. earlier how you have struggled with an. eating disorder and this doesn't always. look the way we expect it to, right? How. did you recognize and come to terms with. the fact that you were struggling? So I. want to say I want to share with you cuz. I'm super proud of it. I invested in a. company called Equip, which is this.

incredible online community for healing. recovery from eating disorders. And why. I believe so strongly in this work is. because I've, you know, as a person of. privilege, I've been able to have group. therapy and individual therapy and. nutritionists and physical trainers and. doctors. Like I've had access to. incredible health care throughout my. life. And this platform, Equip, is like. the democratization of that kind of. health care. They create a team of.

health care support around every single. person, so that the healing because. eating disorders are such a. multi-dimensional illness. It's It's. psychological. It's biological. It's. cultural. And so you need your team of. support to reflect that kind of care. And so they do this online with people. all over the country. >> Incredible. And they take insurance. And. it's unbelievable. So, yeah. So, I'm. very proud of that work. >> And for me, I think especially it's. important because a lot of people of. color go undiagnosed. People who live on. the margins go undiagnosed. So, people.

who are in the queer community, um women. of color, men of color. It just We I. think in general we tend to downplay how. dangerous eating disorders are even. though they are fatal. Um so many people. die every year from eating disorders. So, I think. for me, I recognized it because I knew. that I was in a real mental health. crisis. Like the thing that actually got. me to get help with my eating disorder.

wasn't the food itself. Wasn't the. behavior with the food. It was the. suicidal ideation. I was like, I'm using. food as a an exercise as a tool to not. be here. Like I'm trying to escape life and I I. need to figure out how to be in life cuz. I don't I was terrified that I was being. so. mean to myself, right? That I was in so. much pain that it was like inflicting. more pain was the only way out of my. pain.

And it's so hard to. recognize when you're in it. Like I. think it and it's also sometimes and I. know I've spoken to women before on my. show where they say like it's sometimes. easier to stay in it. >> Yeah. >> because dismantling all like you said, this is not just like and then just you. stop doing it. It's like you have to go. through the psychological. You needed to. get into the body and like. >> No, I like to say like you know and this. is not to diminish the. the power of any addiction, but there. are some addictions where the work is.

like you have to put it down and you. stop. And one of the things that's. tricky about an eating disorder is I. have to take this tiger out of a cage. and pet it like a house cat three times. a day, right? Like that's that is one of. the interesting dynamics is that like. you you can't just say I'm not going to. eat. >> Which is actually another extension of. eating disorder. So you you have to be. in relationship with this thing that is. so challenging to engage with. I remember reading that quote of yours. and it was such a.

um. it was so helpful to read that cuz I do. I agree it puts it into perspective that. this this feeling and this um whether. it's disorder or addiction or whatever. you want to call it like. it's ever present. You can't survive. without eating. And so I agree it's like. every addiction is horrible, but this. one specifically there is such a. complexity to it. >> Yeah, it's similar to like the money. addictions or the sex addictions where. like you don't you can't just give it. up, but you got to figure out how to do. it in a way that doesn't ruin your life.

and the lives of the people you love the. most. Yes. Mhm. What was your healing. process like? I mean it was the first it was the first. thing that got me on my knees ever. Like. the first time I ever prayed was to get. out of this insanity where I was like. the only thing like my entire life. revolved around what I was eating or not. eating, how many calories I was burning. I was so I was when I was in college it. was the worst the worst the worst. That's when I first went into treatment. And I it was the first time I got on my. knees to be like I need help. Um and so.

it was for me it was group therapy, it. was individual therapy, it was the first. time I ever went to see a shrink and. have therapy and talk about my feelings. Um it was working with a nutritionist, it was all of that stuff. Yeah. I think. something that can be really hard is. like when you are genuinely so concerned. about someone, it can come off like you. are criticizing or you're commenting on. their body when you're trying to help. them. Do you have any advice for people.

listening on like how to navigate that. type of conversation if you are a friend. or a family member concerned? I had the. opposite where I went to a couple people. to say I think I need help with this and. people are like, "It's fine. Everybody. eats when they're upset." Like they they. kind of refused. to see how serious it was because they. didn't want that to be true for me. And. I think sometimes people do that because. they don't they don't want to look at. their own behavior with food. So they're. like, "It's fine. Whatever. We don't. have to talk about it.". >> So it's also just listening to the.

people around you. >> to I think if you're if you're the one. struggling, it's trusting your gut. If. you know you need help, don't let. anybody tell you that it's not a big. deal. And as a parent, if you know your. child needs help also cuz I I mean even. a lot of pediatricians struggle to. diagnose eating disorders. There's a lot. of education that needs to happen in the. medical community where still people in. medical schools are being taught that. eating disorders are things that happen. to like. white, wealthy people in suburbs. There's all this weird misinformation. around who has them and even what are.

eating disorders. What are the different. eating disorders? So. I think like if you're a parent, trusting your gut and getting help for. your young ones. And if you're. struggling, don't minimize it. Like it. might be eating disorder, it might be. disordered eating, it might it could be. a whole spectrum of things, but if you. need help, ask for help. Like you don't. need to suffer alone. You don't need to. live in pain. You don't need to. to engage in activity that takes you out. of life. >> Yeah. As someone who is in the public eye,

sadly that does come with scrutiny over. your looks and your body. Yeah. How does that constant commentary affect. you? I keep thinking it's like a lot of times. when you're asking me questions, I'm. like, I love the title of our show, Imperfect Women, because I'm like so. much of the journey is about being like, I'm not perfect. We're all imperfect. Like, imperfect is a synonym for human. It's just like that that is that's who I. am. So, I think I'm in a place in my.

life now where I understand it's I mean, people are going to have their opinions. I'm just doing the best I can. And I. have pretty high standards, so like I'm. reaching for gold in my version of me, and if it's not good enough for you, then that's your issue to deal with. Like, yeah. It's a great point, and I. also think I had somewhat of a. conversation similar to this with. Michelle Obama, where we talked about. how the internet. >> Queen Michelle Obama, yes. Okay. Still.

such a positive No, no, no. I know. Okay. I'm still not over it. Yes. Okay. Um the internet is so ruthless when it. comes to body shaming and criticizing. women, but the sad reality is a majority. of the time it is coming from other. women. What do you think is. behind that? Mhm. We're not taught to love ourselves.

It's not like a core value, and it needs. to be. And so I think a lot of times we reach. for criticism of ourselves and others. because we just don't know how to choose. to be more loving. We don't know how. It's so true, and I. think like. when. women go at other women, there's almost. this. projection that's happening, whether. it's someone that's triggering something. in you, um whether you're seeing. something that you wish you could be.

doing, or you you It's the same reason. because it shakes your idea of what's. acceptable. >> Yes, and I think like. what I want to work on and I'm I think. when Michelle talked about that I was. hoping like also my audience can work on. is like really pausing in those moments. where you do have a negative feeling. towards another woman and really trying. to dissect like why is this happening. because. >> Where is this coming from? >> Because we're only going to continue to. perpetuate it and the the only way we're.

going to dismantle the patriarchy of all. the men are just laughing. Like they're. just like, "Oh my god, if anything now. they're all so busy tearing each other. down like we used to have to do it. Now. you're all doing it yourselves." It's. like it's worked so they've worked so. long to put us in this position where we. are uh below them and we have to believe. we are equal and so we have to start. actually rising directly next to them. and looking at ourselves being like, "The only way we're going to get there. is if we actually shut our mouths the.

next time that we want to say something. negative about another woman." I'm not. saying you can't disagree with women, you can't. >> Yeah. you know, say I I think the. opposite of you or I actually don't. agree with what you are doing. Sure, but. maybe the next time you think to do. that, you stay silent at least publicly on. that or DM the person and have a private. conversation. But I don't know, I just. think there's different solves to. actually getting underneath how do we. stop the war against women when half of. the time it feels like we're we're in it. within ourselves. Yeah. I mean, the.

thing is what you're talking about. requires a lot of maturity because. there's a certain level of emotional. regulation that when I get ramped up. about something that I don't just jump. to react, but that I pause. Like I feel. like such a big part of being an adult, a mature adult is in the pause. Like am. I willing to pause, take a beat, look at. my side of the street before I'm. reactive. And it's really I feel like it. is at the cornerstone of being able to. grapple with a lot of really challenging.

relationships. I mean, really important. in parenting. Pausing is. really important in parenting. >> imagine. >> Because you do you and you get triggered. a lot. You get activated a lot by stuff. To great. >> Mhm. point. And I can't help but think. like you've been in so many rooms with. men and women in this very heightened. industry. >> Mhm. Do you have any moments where you. realized you were kind of being set up. to compete with other women? And how has.

that evolved for you as you have kind of. come into more power compared to maybe. the beginning days where you didn't have. as much of a say? I will never forget this. Um. I I think it was Chris Rock who said. this to me that the most. racist thing that's ever been done to. you, you'll never know about cuz you. weren't even in the room. I think it's true in sexism, too. Like. the most sexist decision that gets made. about us, we won't even have access to. the moment it got made because it will.

be in a room that we did not have access. to. So, that's wild. It's a wild idea to. wrap your head around. But I actually think of I think of a. moment that's a little bit of the. opposite. Like I I referred to this. earlier when when the script for Scandal. was circulating, everybody was obsessed because we hadn't. seen an opportunity for a black actress. like this in our lifetimes. And. everybody wanted to read for it. Everybody thought they were born to play. this character. And God bless Shonda,

she was like, "If you want to read, I. will let you read." Like she saw. everybody cuz she understood the hope. that lived in these the pages of this. script for so many people. And I remember speaking at a luncheon. for Essence magazine after I had gotten. the part. So, it was a room full of. black women. And I don't know how to explain. this, but I'm going to try. Um, I felt nothing. but love in that room. And I knew that.

there could have been, like I could have. been standing in front of that room, in. front of all those women, many of whom I. knew were like down to the wire, like. down to me and four other women, all of. them were in there. There was no sense of competition. There. was no sense of like it should have been. me. There was no sense of. how dare she. It was all like you have. to go win this thing. Like we believe in you. You got it. Now. you have to go win for us.

And that magic, I was like this is, I. know that this is not the norm. I know. that this is rarefied air that we're all. breathing right now, and I felt so. grateful and res- and responsible for. that and for all of us, for like for. like standing up, for representing all. of us. And by the way, there may have. been some of them who went home and were. like, that [ __ ] like I know I I could. have done that part with my eyes closed. I don't know why she's doing it. Like. I'm not saying those feelings weren't.

there, but I'm saying like in that room, the energy that they were consciously. sending my way was all love. I mean, that though is I agree, it's like we can. Yes, we can always focus on the. negative, but that is such a testament. to. the. statement and the reality that has kind. of been built out is that there can only. be one woman at the top. >> I know. >> And although in that moment, it was.

proving true, as you're saying, I am a. black woman in this position that for 40. years. >> happened. >> And so it is on my shoulders right now, but how incredible that you took that. and you had all these women standing. there being like we are rooting for you. >> win. >> You have to win. >> And I always say, like I didn't change. history. Like I was going to cut I was. going to come in and and know my lines. and make strong choices. I was going to. do my job as an actor no matter what. The person who made history, that was.

our audiences. Like audiences all over. the world, they tuned in and they made a. point. They They were able to prove to. the network that it wasn't a risk, that. it was actually a strong ROI, that we. were going to bring the value. So, when I think about that moment, I also. think all of those women they were the. women who were like retweeting and. reposting and joining in on Thursday. nights because when we were a. grassroots, you know, mid-season. replacement show, it was like black. women who were first like, "You got to.

watch this show. You got to watch my. girl Kerry." Like that's that energy. So, we did all win together. There was. only room for one, but it took all of us. to break that door open. And then there. was room for more of us to go through. it. >> Right. Back to what you said, all of. those shows that followed. Yes, at first. there was only and that is I think what. like ending that conversation. It's. like, that is such That is what we're. talking about. It's actually yes, if one. if it can only be one woman in the room, we have to believe that she's going to.

work her ass off and it will allow for. the rest of us to also rise with her and. we have to believe that. We just have. to. And look what happened. >> we can't tear each other apart for our. imperfections because when one of us. comes forward to say, "I had an. abortion. It was the hardest thing I've. ever done. It It was a really difficult time in my. life, but I made that choice." When we. allow her to do that, we allow other. people to say, "I have a secret, too. I. have a secret, too. I adopted my.

children and didn't tell anybody. I used. a sperm donor. My husband's infertile. I'm infertile." Like whatever it is, like we when we make room for each. other's truth, also like each other's. success, each other's pain, like we have. to support each other as women in our. human, imperfect, messy journey so that. we can continue to be badass and human. and imperfect and messy and awesome. It's so true cuz then the stigma is. gone. There's only a stigma cuz we're. making it. >> That's right. >> And then the more we keep talking about. it, that stigma will be gone and then.

people won't have to keep these secrets. because. >> stay in community and just be who we. are. Girl, I mean, >> this today. I did. Call Her Daddy is. brought to you by Pandora jewelry. All. right, celebrate your unique story with. Pandora jewelry crafted with meaning and. exquisite artistry. Daddy gang, Pandora really comes through when it's. time for a good gift, okay? Whether. you're picking out something for your. partner or you're just treating yourself.

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flavors, White Claw Seltzer Works, Chicago, Illinois. Okay, relationships. Okay. You have been married for about 13. years. What has your partnership taught you. about yourself? Oh, wow, that's such a good question. What has my partner. taught me about myself? That [snorts]. I'm really, really lucky. >> [laughter]. >> I'm like, I must have done something. really good in a past life because.

[laughter]. >> [gasps]. >> I mean, what an extraordinary human. So, I'm really lucky. Um. Oh god, he teaches me stuff all the. time. One of the things that I really love. about our relationship is that very. early on we started couples therapy. Like, we started couples therapy before. anything was wrong. Like, we just. started couples therapy kind of. preventatively. Um. he was newer to therapy. I feel like. I've been in therapy my whole life, but.

we were like, we should just like start. having these conversations so that if. something does get hard, we already have. a culture of knowing how to talk about. stuff. I'm obsessed with couples therapy. It's. It's my favorite. It's like part. logistics meeting, part like um party, part date in the afternoon. Like I so. look forward to it. We start every session with something. that the other person did well. Like. something that we appreciate about the. other person. And like every time I am.

like this is the best part of my week. Cuz so often, what's really so often the. thing he shares with me that he. appreciated or the thing I share with. him, it's not something I would have. guessed. It's like something that to me. was small, but to him it meant a lot. And that's so useful cuz now I'm like, "Oh, I can do that again." Like I can do. that all the time. That was nothing to. me, right? Like So you really learn how. to love each other better in that way by. starting with something good.

Um. I think he's taught me just how to be a. better person, a better human. Um and. he's given me the greatest gift, which. is his partnership and also to be a mom. >> Yeah. That's beautiful. >> Yeah. Um something I was thinking about. is you have been able to maintain a. career and obviously you talked about. motherhood, right? To anyone listening. that's like, "Girl, you in particular.". Yeah, I'm like, "Girl, how do you. thinking about starting a family?". >> Yeah, I'm like, "To anyone that's maybe. thinking about that one day, [laughter].

um how?". "Girl, give me the advice. What do I do? How do you do it?". >> I have girlfriends who I'm I have said. like, "You should just come over.". Because it's a little bit like you just. need to see it. You just need to see it. in the wild. Like you just need to be. like, "Oh, like it's chaotic, it's. crazy, and it's awesome." Like you just. got to Like you just have to come over. >> Perfect. I'll just watch it. >> Yeah. You just need to It's like It's. like seeing a lion in the wild. You're. like, "It's real. Okay. All right. Well, we can do it." I would say.

you're never going to feel ready, or by. the time you feel ready, then you're. like on a clock. Um, I don't know, just. follow your gut. >> Yeah. Follow your gut. >> I know, I feel like that's a lot of what. I've read online or like seen people. talk about is like there's only so much. advice you can give to people and then. it's like you got to just throw yourself. into it because everyone's made it work. somehow. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Like it's going to be hard. >> That's right. >> But there's. also a journey you need to go on for. yourself.

>> Yeah. That there's only so much you can. read in books or listen to on podcast. and it's like you kind of got to live. it. >> I would say two things. >> Okay. One is just think about it. Like don't. not think about it, right? Like the. biggest thing I say to my girlfriends is. like don't just make your whole life. about work. Be open to thinking about where these. other pieces can fit in because Michelle. Obama says this all the time, you can't. have everything all the time, but you want to make sure that by the. time the things you want by the time.

you're ready for the things you want, you're still able to do them, right? So. like really be you're so strategic about. your life, like don't be afraid to be a. little bit strategic about this. >> Yeah. It's great advice. >> right? Like like take it seriously. This. is part of the plan. This is part of the plan, so take it. seriously. >> I feel like Olivia came out a little bit. about there. It's my name on that door, but it's your name on that door, so act. like it. Um, okay. >> is the plan, Alex. I'm like, yes, keep. going. >> Yes. I think also a lot of my audience.

is in a phase right now where they're. maybe getting engaged or they're. thinking about marriage and the way that. you just said, you know, you feel so. lucky with your partnership. Like is. there any conversations that you do. think are essential before getting. married that maybe my audience could. benefit from having? Well, I do think not being afraid to. allow independence in your marriage is. important, right? Like I have I remember. having a conversation with one. girlfriend who was just like, "They have.

to love Indian food." And I was like, "Well, why? Like I will eat Indian food. with you." First of all, you can go to. an Indian restaurant by yourself. And. also, I will always eat Indian food. Like they You don't have to like all the. same things all the time. >> it's good if you don't. >> if you have separate interests. It's. It's important. It's powerful. It's. meaningful. And then you get to come. back to each other and have something to. talk about. Like So, I think not being. afraid of independence is really. important. Um. and I think the family thing is. important. Like, do you want to have. kids? Do you not want to have kids? That.

I think that's really important. >> Yeah, I actually really love the. independence topic, too, because I think. to anyone listening, it's also like so. much that goes into the beginning days. of a relationship is this conscious. coupling of like, do we work? Do we have. the same this and this? Do do our lives. merge? And so much is seeing if you are. compatible, which yes, is important, but. then you're merging so heavily and. making sure everything aligns. That then. it's like, well, wait, what if one thing. is off? And it's like, no, no, no. Watching my parents now who have had.

have been married for 40-plus years, and. the things that they both don't align on. in terms of what they like or whatever, it's actually so beautiful because as. they've grown, they've filled in that. area with friends or their child goes. and does it with them or they do it. alone. And that allows for the. independence to remain, which is so. integral to a relationship because you. came in as individuals. You don't want. to then just somehow merge. Like, you. fell in love because of who you came in. as individuals. That's right. That's.

right. I also think that like there's a. lot my I did not have a very traditional. wedding, but I do think about those. vows. I think they're so powerful. because I think you have to really ask. yourself in sickness, like in poverty, when things are not. good. Like, who is this somebody who I. want to be down with and who is going to. be down for me on the good days and the. bad days. Like really asking yourself in. the more challenging times, is this my. ride or die? Like is this my Do I want.

to be this person's co-pilot and do I. want them to be mine? Cuz that's also. the thing, right? Is that like part of. that independence conversation is like I. am the lead in the story of my life. He. is the lead in the story of his life, but also I like being the supporting. character in his life and he likes being. the supporting character in my life. That I can I can have both. I can be in. two movies. I can be in like the Kerry. Washington movie where it's all about. me, but I also really love being number. two on the call sheet in his movie, you. know? I love that. I know I'm thinking. about like all the girlies listening. Like if you are just liking him right.

now cuz it fits into your social. calendar, maybe maybe just think a. little bit more before he gets down on. one knee or what however you're going to. do it because there is so much more to. life than just the fun times. You're. right, in sickness and in health, when. if money is lost. Like those are the. There's the important things, Kerry. Um. okay, back to your new show as we. >> Yes. I was going to say wind down and I. was like every time my therapist says. that I get triggered. I'm like. >> [laughter]. >> I get IT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? I'M LIKE. WE'RE AT THE 50-MINUTE MARK, PLEASE.

Like I could be sobbing and she's like, "Well, as we wind down." And I'm like. [laughter]. >> Wait. No, don't leave me now. >> I wind up saying it first cuz I don't. want the therapist to say it. I'm like I. know we don't have that much time. I. always say that at the end of sessions. I'm like I know we don't have a lot of. time. No, that's actually so real. You. start to look and you're like we have 1. minute. I'm going to say it first and. it's like oh my god. >> breaking up with me. I'm breaking up. with you. It is so [laughter]. That is so real. Um okay, I know you. said obviously you can't give spoilers, but like. what do you think fans are going to love.

the most about this show? This show, I swear to you, I know a. little something about like water cooler. television. This show is your next like cannot miss. everybody's talking about it, psychological thriller, sexy, juicy, girly, fantastic show. It is like it's. so captivating. These characters are. unbelievable. The acting is crazy. Like. Elizabeth Moss is a beast of an actress.

She's just a beast. Kate Mara is a. beast. We are all three women who have. held our own shows. So to like team up. together to support each other in the. telling of the story is incredible. I. imagine this is what it feels like to be. on a dream team at the Olympics where. you're like I can't drop the ball. Like. I can't be the one who doesn't sink the. ball. Like I you have to I have to win. cuz this team has to win. And so you. every day also one of the things that's. really cool about the show that I love. is that it's actually told from. different point of views. Like it seems. like it's my show in the beginning and.

then it becomes Nancy's show and then it. becomes Mary's show. And so like you're. actually getting the story from. different perspectives which is like. unraveling of truth as you keep going. through. So you go deeper and deeper. into these secrets and into these. discoveries. It's just so good. We would. have arguments on set constantly about. the things these characters were doing. Like we disagreed among cast and crew. about whether things were right or. wrong, whether people could do what they. were doing. Like does that make you a. good friend or a bad friend? >> love shows like that that actually force.

you to really self-reflect and be like. wait, do I think would I agree with. that? Would I do that? >> Yeah. My husband was like enough. I'd go. home and I'd be like okay, if I died. he's like I don't want to talk about. this anymore. I'm like I just have a. question. >> [laughter]. >> If I died He's like enough. Yeah. Stop. it. No, I am so excited to see it for. everyone watching. Like I think we love. you. We love watching you on our TVs. You've just obviously been with us for. so long and any project you have I think. we all rally behind you because you're.

just you're our comfort watch. You're. our girl. So like I am so excited for. you. I'm so excited for this new show. and I am. >> [sighs]. >> I can't I can't to call my mom after. this [laughter] because she doesn't even. know. She doesn't even know I'm. interviewing you today. >> Is is she live here? >> Oh, so you guys should both come over. This is what you should do. You should. both come over and I will convince you. to have children. >> [laughter]. >> I am like. I'm going to take your word for that. I. have never followed up. No, I'm just. kidding. No, that means so much and.

you're so sweet and my mom would. actually pass out. Um, but thank you for. your time. I know you're so busy. I know. you have so much going on and like to. get two hours of your time to sit with. you, to pick your brain, to go back and. relive memory lane with the scandal days. all the way to the current projects. Like you are such a special woman and. I'm honored to have met you and thank. you for giving me your time. Thank you. so much and thank you for forcing me to. call my friend Tony. >> [laughter]. >> Tony, literally hearing Olivia and Fitz one.

more time I was like, I need to go. rewatch it now. Thank [laughter] you. Thank you. >> [music]. [music].