Katie Couric: Sexism, Storytelling & Standing Up to Cancer

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call. Her Daddy. Katie Couric, welcome to Call Her Daddy. >> Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. >> You are one of the most legendary. journalists of all time. You are the. first woman to ever solo anchor the. evening news. You have literally. interviewed everyone from world leaders. to Taylor Swift. You have broken.

barriers for women, all while managing a. lot of personal struggles along the way. And so, I feel like we have so much to. talk about today, and I'm very, very. excited to be here with you. >> Well, thank you for having me. We do. have so much to talk about, and I'm. going to have to resist Alex asking you. a million questions. >> I was literally just going to ask you. that cuz I was like, I know you're. usually in my seat getting to ask all. the questions, getting to be in control. How does it feel when you have to be on. the other end of it?

>> it actually depends a lot, honestly. No. pressure on the interviewer. >> No pressure. Thank you, Katie. >> But but, you know what I love about you. is you're always really well prepared, which is so important, and I think it. shows. I think first of all, it puts the. person at ease. They feel like, "Wow, this person isn't just kind of sitting. down. They know something about me. They've done their homework. They have. found little interesting things that. they are, you know, interested in. And.

so, I I think when somebody's prepared and. interested, it makes it a lot more fun. >> I agree. I think it's like it almost. also feels safer cuz you're like, "Oh, you got me. Like you want to be here. I. want to be here, and trust me, I got. you, Katie.". >> Okay, thank you. >> Um I was thinking about it. The last. time one of the last times I was in New. York interviewing someone was Amy. Schumer. >> Mhm. >> And. I heard from little birdie that there. was like a pretty bold prank that she.

played on you and your husband. What. happened? >> funny. God, I think we were at a dinner. I. think it might have been for Glamour. magazine. I can't remember. This was. God, maybe 10 years ago or something. And I left my phone on the table. My. husband was meeting me at this party. He. was talking to his. his free pass, Keri Russell. >> What about for you? >> because uh friend of his was a is a. director and directed Keri in something. Anyway, so my husband's talking to Keri.

Russell and I'm like, I better go over. and say hi to him. I leave my phone on. the table. I guess it was unlocked. And uh and Amy texted my husband. I. guess maybe my text messages were open. and said something like. "Anal tonight?". >> No. >> Yeah. >> No. >> And so. >> Nope. >> it was very funny. She used it in her. stand-up. She talked about it on Jimmy. Fallon. But I always said, "Amy, you. didn't tell anyone what my husband. texted you back." Which was, "Again?".

>> No. >> [laughter]. >> Wait, and did you immediately know it. was a joke or were you like, "What is. that?" Okay. It was like so crazy. You're like, "What is happening to me. right now?". >> It was really funny and honestly gave. her a lot of material for many many. routines. Uh. >> And you know what? That's the whole. point of this. >> it was embarrassing because I think like. my phone blew up. I think we went to bed. right before like the late night shows. came on. And the next morning, of. course, everybody told us that she told.

that story on Jimmy Fallon. But it was. funny. >> me.". >> I thought it was funny. >> Okay, I feel like whenever you hear. someone is a journalist, people have preconceived notions. They're like, "Oh, they're probably. going to be like a little stuffy, a. little serious." But how would you. describe your personality? Like, what. are you like? >> I think I'm really funny. I'm incredibly outgoing. Like, I will. talk to this table. I've I never met a. stranger. I think you and I have some. similarities there. I sort of always.

hated the perky word because I felt it. that description sounds demeaning and. sort of. um. kind of somebody that isn't smart. Perky. seems sort of vapid to me. >> You're right, especially as a woman, if. you are fun and you're outgoing, I think. a lot of people then naturally believe. that you can't be serious or the. intellect isn't there. >> Definitely. >> And I so relate. >> women and and they put them in these.

boxes. And we contain multitudes, as Walt. Whitman says. >> What a concept, you know? Katie, what a. concept. We can have multiple different. things about us and not be like one like. singular focused woman. >> Right. Right. >> I like that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Love it. Having been on air for so. many years, like I have not been someone. who's doing live, right? I'm doing. podcasting, but you have been in the. trenches. Things have been thrown at you. in the moment, you have to go with it.

Like, if you have to just think at the. top of your head, what is one of the. craziest things that you've had to deal. with on air in a moment? >> I mean, actually. probably. and and this is obviously a very serious. thing, but the the most challenging time. I was on live television was when 9/11. happened. >> [snorts]. >> Because Alex, you know, I was doing the. Today show. It was before the Today show. had expanded to multiple hours. It ended.

at 9:00. The first plane hit at 8:46. And we Matt Lauer and I and Al Roker. I'll never forget it. We're having to process what we were. seeing, what was happening, trying to. understand it. like in real time in the most terrifying. situation you can imagine and just like. everybody who was watching us. we had no idea what was happening and it. was so interesting to me I remember.

having this magical thinking that oh. it's before 9:00 so a lot of people. aren't in the office yet and I remember. thinking I talked to somebody recently. about this and they thought the same. thing oh. it must have been a pilot who had a. heart attack or something terrible. happened because that had happened at at. the Empire State Building like many. years before that something terrible had. happened with a much smaller plane so. you know it's so interesting how you you. process these things and you kind of try.

to rationalize them and make sense of. them and then of course we were sitting. there when the second plane went into. the. you know the World Trade Center and. and I remember my hand was shaking. and and I also remember Matt saying this. is an act of terrorism that whole day. was spent you know just. it got worse and worse and then the. plane you know crashing in Shanksville.

and the. it was just [clears throat] terrible and. I I've often said that that was. a moment where I've never felt a greater. sense of responsibility. to viewers because. they were desperate for information. nobody knew what was going on everybody. was so freaked out and confused do you. remember that at all you must have been. very young. >> I was I was in second grade and I. remember I will never forget it's it's. so chilling to hear you speak about it.

because now as an adult thinking about. the position you were in. >> But, there's so much going through my. brain right now because number one, I. remember standing in my living room with. my parents and. my neighbors screaming and everyone um. on our cul-de-sac was running to each. others' houses. >> Cuz you were in Connecticut, right? >> Um Pennsylvania at the time, yeah. >> Pennsylvania, that's right. >> And my mom and dad are standing in front. of the TV. and we're watching you.

And we're watching you. tell us what's going on. >> Me learning in real time right along. with you, right? And it was so. it was so scary. Honestly, there was a. moment that morning I felt like the. world was ending. I that you know, you. just didn't know how many planes had. been hijacked. You didn't know sort of. who was behind it. I remember during. like when somebody else was doing an. interview, I ran into our production. area and I called my parents.

And my mom and dad at the time, they've. they've since passed away, but they. lived in northern Virginia not far from. the Pentagon. And I remember calling. them and telling them to get in the. basement. I mean, it was so scary. You. just didn't know. kind of how bad it was going to be. >> It was so surreal as a child and I. remember not fully understanding because. um my aunt had lost someone in the. towers and so there was crying and. screaming and I just remember watching.

my parents being so scared. And it was. one of the most horrific times. I I. agree for this entire country. It's. going to be I think now almost 25 years. >> 5 years this September. But it was so it was such collective. trauma. >> It is one of those things that like. living through that, you will never. forget. Yes, even as young as whatever I. was or younger, like you will never. forget where you were. And to think. about you as a journalist on air, the. news was on 24 hours a day. Like you.

When do you think you even process what. was happening? Cuz all of us are looking. to you. Like you're like our our. journalist / therapist at the time being. like, "Tell us what's happening." You. you go into basically fight or flight. mode just being like, "I have to do my. job." Your hands are shaking, but you. have to be locked in. When did you process all that had. happened? >> I I think it took a few days, honestly, cuz I think I stayed the whole day. I. did the evening news with Brian Williams. that night. And then I remember going.

home and Laurie Beth had gotten Ellie. and Carrie, my daughters. And. we lived on the Upper East Side, and I. remember coming home and the acrid smell. of burnt plastic and electrical wire had. come all the way up to 91st and Park. Avenue, and people were kind of walking. around our neighborhood in a complete. daze holding candles. Isn't that so. weird? And even for days afterwards,

we'd see, you know, F-16s flying sort of. close to New York City. It I It It. really did feel like a movie, as you. said. It was so surreal. >> I. to again, everyone's families watching, anyone that had been affected, like we. were with you and we think about you and. it and it's crazy because even like I. feel like we both just had tears in our. eyes when we were just thinking about. that moment, like 25 years. And it also. still feels like it was yesterday. Also,

sitting in New York City doing this. interview right now, like it is. remarkable though how much our country. came back from that moment. And to see. the way the resilience and the passion. and the pride for who we are, especially. those New Yorkers, but my god, we as a. country were so resilient in that. moment. >> think back at that moment, too, and I. think about how unified we were and how. apolitical the whole thing was and how.

countries around the world. supported us. And I mean, yes, for all. the families who lost people they love, I have a friend who lost her fiance and. her brother in 9/11. I've kept up with a. number of people I interviewed that day, then I thought a lot about what. motivates people. And I think in a way. they come to honor. the lives lost, to say. this person meant something.

And and. I want to show the country that who this. person was. >> Such a good point, Katie. It's like when. it is something that has so deeply. affected your life, I think in a way, the way that also we as human beings. survive is by sharing our stories and. connecting with others, right? So, to. sit and self-isolate, you're only going to ruminate on it. more. You're only going to feel whether. it's shame or guilt or scared. And to.

actually like almost like break bread. with other people and talk about it, it. it gives some not even levity, but just. like it honors it in a way that it yeah. >> know, that's interesting, like the role. of storytelling. in, you know, since the beginning of. time, right? This need to share. and to, you know, validate a life lost. I I just. think it's so interesting because so. many times uh throughout my career I.

have spoken to people who are just so. anguished and have experienced something. horrible, and yet. and yet they're willing. and almost anxious to come on and talk. about it. I just think it's so. interesting. >> Call Her Daddy is brought to you by. T-Mobile. Daddy gang, summer is. officially here, which means the Euro. trip you've been talking about in the. group chat since January. It's actually. real. The outfits are planned, the.

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you're covered on America's best. network, daddy gang. Hook yourself up. I can't help but think like yes, you've. become obviously one of the most famous. anchors of all time. >> Which is hilarious to me. >> No. No, but you like going back to your. origin days, which I think is so. fascinating when people are like looking. at you, Katie Couric, oh my god, you're. telling us these moments that you've. been in these huge moments. Early days, a major executive looked at you and told. you. that you shouldn't be on air.

>> It was even worse than that. >> Tell me the story because I'm like what? >> Well, you know, I think because I looked. kind of young and wasn't the. prototypical. news anchor person type. Um. when I got into the business, I always. wanted to be a reporter cuz I always. loved to write and that curiosity thing. and to be able to talk to anybody about. anything kind of made I thought me a. perfect fit to be a reporter. And.

you know, I started out and when I was. 22 I I look probably 16 and in fact the. bureau chief of CNN in Washington said, "We're going to give you a break, kid. You're going to go to the White House. and you're going to report you're going. to say what the president is doing that. day, what's on the schedule." So I was. very excited. I was like practicing all. night in my talking to my hairbrush like. Marsha Brady and terrible diarrhea cuz I. was so stressed out. I get to the White. House. I give the whole spiel like today.

the president is meeting with national. security advisers a big new Brzezinski. I had like a pantsuit on, you know, I. was very very very professional. >> saying. You're like, "I know it to a T. what I was doing, what I was saying.". >> And then I. I knew I wasn't very good. You know, I. hadn't done it really before and I came. back and I asked the assignment editor, you know, the camera crew was like, "Yeah, that was fine." So I could tell. like I went back and this guy named Bill.

Henzel who's such a doll, I said, "How. how did it go?" And he goes, "Well, Reese Schonfeld, the president of CNN at. the time, he called and said he never wanted to. see you on the air again.". I was like, "Great.". >> did you feel in that moment?". >> I felt obviously so deflated and. defeated and. wondered if I was doing the right thing. even pursuing this as a career, you. know, full of self-doubt.

And then I kind of picked myself up and. I thought, "Okay, that sucked." And I. looked around the room and I was like, "These people are smart. What do they. have that I don't have? Experience. They've done this a lot more. than I have." And I thought there's no. reason I'm, you know, baseline as smart as they are, that I. couldn't, with some practice, become. good at this. And that's that's what I. figured, and that's when I decided I. just have to keep doing it.

>> That is such a good attitude to have. because I'm not going to lie, hearing. from the head of CNN being like, "Girl, get off my screen." You're like, I I don't know I actually think it's. painful that he knows my name now. because I wish he didn't know my name in. that capacity. I think there's a lot of. young women who obviously watch my show. that could take some advice from this. moment because I think we can all relate. in some capacity to the idea of feeling. like, "Oh my god, I messed up a moment.". And yes, it is because I'm young and I'm.

inexperienced, but sometimes these. fields that we're walking into, it. doesn't feel like there's any time for. gaining the experience because it's like. you're shoved in and it's like, "Do it. right or get off.". >> Yeah. >> Do you have any advice for anyone who. has gone through a. a hard yeah, setback and how to regain. that confidence? >> Yeah, I mean, I think you have to take. an honest look at yourself and say, "Okay, what did I do wrong? What could I. do better? And how do I get from A to B,

right? Like, how do I get so that in. another situation, so that might mean. learning more, reading more, talking to. more people, figuring out what you. missed and how you can make up for that. So, I. I think it it it can be a setback, but. it doesn't have to be permanent. It can. just be sort of like a early warning. system saying, "And you know what? The. thing is, if I had been thrust into a situation.

and made to cover certain stories, I. wouldn't have been ready. And in a weird way, he did me a great. favor by saying, "You're not ready for. this." And that as a result. I went and I worked in local news. I. covered, you know, bodies in trunks in. Miami and drug deals gone bad, and. you know, I interviewed Ray Charles in. Atlanta. I did. I think I even. I Did I interview Boy George? Yeah, all. these different people, and I did a.

whole variety of work. So, and then I. covered the Pentagon, um which was really a challenge cuz I. didn't have My dad was in the Navy, but. I didn't have this great military. expertise. But, what happened was I worked really. hard, and when this opportunity to to. anchor the Today show came along, it was like I was ready. I was seasoned, and I had confidence and the experience, what Malcolm Gladwell says you have to.

do anything for 10,000 hours to become. good at it. And in a weird way, I think. it can be really motivated when you're. told you're not good enough. I have. another funny story. My news director, who I really like and who hates this. story, when I was at Wash in at WRC at. the NBC station in Washington, I asked if I could anchor cuz I was just. like this little street reporter, and I. was, you know, very aggressive little. street reporter running around DC and. and the whole. Washington area, and I said to him,

"Hey, can I try anchoring?" Cuz I just. wanted to expand my. abilities, and he said, "Sure." So, I. anchored the morning cut-ins. Those were. like the local news in between the Today. show, like at 8:25 and 7:25 when they'd. go to your local station. Well, I had to run the teleprompter. I had. never timed something. I I was awful. Like, I kept talking, and the commercial. had already started. You know, I was. terrible. So, I said to him, "Hey, you.

know, what did you think?" type thing. I. knew I was awful, and he's he's I said, "Do you think I could anchor again?" He. said, "Well, maybe if you go to a really. really really small market, you can. try.". >> I [laughter]. just getting punched in the face. >> But, it was actually really funny. because when I ultimately ended up at. NBC, I filled in. for the nightly news on a Saturday. night, you know, during a holiday when. they were desperate. But, I remember I.

ran into said, you know, aforementioned. news director and I said, "Hey, is the whole country a small enough. market for you?". >> [laughter]. >> And he was like, "Ha-ha-ha.". >> He's like, "Ha-ha-ha. Shut up. Don't remind me.". >> But, it is sort of hard like, you know, when Reese Schonfeld said that, I should. have probably called him when I was. named the co-anchor of the Today show. and be like, "Yo, remember, Reese? >> I figured it out. I figured it out." And. they're all like, "Yeah, you did. Okay,

you got [laughter] us.". >> But, it can be motivating, you know. >> And obviously, it was. I was going to. say obviously, the executive ended up. being wrong because now again, look. where you are. You went on to become the. first woman to solo anchor the evening. news. I need you to explain to me like. and more also to my audience like how. historic that was at the time. You were. the first woman to ever done it. >> This had been the. the territory of sort of.

white authority figure, somebody who. could be considered uh you know, worthy. of delivering the evening news was. always a man. So, when I had this. opportunity, I thought, "This is such an. important. thing to do for all the little girls and. the little boys out there to see. that and we're still struggling by the. way with taking women in in positions of. power seriously. Um but, I thought this. is an opportunity I can't say no to. Um.

and that's. that's why it was sort of a big deal. And I remember I'd taken my daughters to. the Galapagos Islands on a spring break. or whatever. And this mom came up to me. and said, this was after I. had done my I guess I'd been on the. evening news for maybe about eight. months or something. She said, it was so exciting when you became the. first female anchor of the Today show. I picked up my daughter from soccer.

practice. In fact, I didn't even let her. stay for the whole practice because I. said to her, we're going home because. this is an extremely important moment in. history. We're going to watch the first. woman to solo anchor an evening. newscast. And I said, that is so nice. She said, so we went home, we watched. you, and we never watched you again. >> What? >> [laughter]. >> Wait, what? Katie, these stories I'm like I'm like. about to cry and then you're like and. then she we Why did she say.

>> [laughter]. >> You're literally about to cry. You're. like, thank you. What the [ __ ]. >> Is that so crazy? >> Wait. >> And I was like, what? >> [laughter]. >> I was like, >> I'm so confused right now. I'm so How. did you even respond to that? Were you. just like. >> I just remember I mean, I was so moved. and then I was so insulted. >> [laughter]. >> All in like 15 seconds. But it was.

funny. >> have a good day. No, it is um. >> funny. I'm sure I mean, listen, I'm sure. you've experienced a lot of weird. comments. Like, oh, you look so much. better on television or you look No, they always say to me, you look so much. better in person and. >> Oh, and you're like the backhanded. compliments and you just stand there and. you're like, thank you? Question mark? Yeah. Moving. on. Oh my god, no, but it does um that. even slash out the last part of the. woman's statement, the.

how important it was. And I agree with. you, it is difficult to sit here and. also know like we've made progress, we. haven't really made progress, some of it. some not, but to know how transformative. it was in that moment to have a woman. sitting there alone, and it was you. Like. did you feel pressure? >> was going to come out of my chest and. land on my script on my desk. I'll never. forget. that first night of doing the news, and.

you know, it was very exciting, but it. was really hard because as a friend of. mine said, you know, when you're a. trailblazer, you get burned, right? When. you're the first of anything to do. something, then it's kind of open. season. So, it was really tough because. you know, it's funny, I was listening to. Michelle Obama talk about this and how. with you and how no matter what she did, people talked about what she was. wearing. They didn't talk about how. smart she is, her professional.

accomplishments, you know, her her education, anything. It was always such a shallow. perspective, and that's sort of happened. to me, too. You know, people wrote about. my makeup and my hair and the way I held. my hands in at the desk, and all these. other things. So, it it was it was. challenging, and you know, I also think. I had had this mandate. They wanted me. to kind of change up the way the evening.

news was done. They wanted it to be sort. of less. "Good evening, you know, the voice of. God" kind of thing. They wanted it to be. more accessible, but. what they didn't realize, I.E. Les. Moonves, who was the head of CBS at the. time, was that that audience is very. old. CBS is the most traditional. network, and they didn't really want. >> a change up. >> They didn't want a change. I don't think. I think probably just having someone. deliver the news wearing lipstick was.

jarring enough. But then we were sort of. we were I was brought there to kind of. change up the format. So, viewers hated it. Internally, I had a lot of uh people, naysayers, and people trying to sabotage. me. uh internally. And it it made for a. really challenging time in my life. And. I tell this funny story. I think I wrote. about it in my book that my. >> [laughter]. >> I was eating dinner with with Ellie and.

Carrie and Lori Beth, our our nanny who. I love, who was like my wife and it and. really another parent to my girls. And I started crying at the dinner table. cuz I was under so much pressure both. internally, externally, just everything. And talk about self-doubt. And I was like, "I don't think I can do. this anymore.". And they're like pretty startled cuz I. didn't do that a lot in front of my. kids, you know? And they said, "What's wrong?" And I was like,

"Everyone is just so mean to me.". And and Ellie and Carrie Carrie, who was. 10 at the time, uh said, "Mom, remember what Samantha. said in Sex and the City?" And I was. like, "Oh Jesus Christ, this is really. bad that I'm allowing my daughter". hopefully she didn't watch the Funky. Spunk episode. So, she goes, "Samantha said, 'If I listened to what. every [ __ ] in New York City said about. me, I'd never leave the house.'" And it.

was so funny, and she's such a good. mimic uh that I started laughing and. everything was fine. >> fully clocking you. You're like, "You're right.". >> It was really funny. >> you watching Sex and the City? >> Oh, I'm a terrible mother. You should not be. watching that. >> That it. I mean. It is so crazy though to hear you talk. about how you were put in this position. and it also makes it pains me for you. because I I've dealt with things like.

that where you're like you're being told. to do something and then it's all your. fault. America's watching and they're. like, why the hell is she doing this and. you're like, I am literally the the man. paying my paycheck is telling me he. wants to shake it up a little bit. I I. I'm just trying to do my job but it's. all falling on you publicly. >> Yeah. >> Without as much as you can like. I think there's something um. kind of like the underbelly of the. industry even you just saying the. sabotage. Um.

as much as you could share just like a. moment you remember where you're like, oh these people there are people here. that fully want me out and how. any any example or even just like an. like an isolating moment where you felt. like I'm so alone right now. >> Well, I there was a story, you know, 60. Minutes was sort of my dream. Um. you know, even if I hadn't been. asked to anchor the evening news, I. think that would have been a great job. for me. Um. I love the show. I've watched it ever.

since I was a little kid. and. the head of 60 Minutes at the time. um I think maybe because he wasn't. really consulted about bringing me over. and. you know, I was sort of seen somebody. from a different network coming in and. sort of muddying the waters and I hadn't. come up in the CBS system. So. I don't know. He just. he just didn't like me and I remember.

saying. to the people who work on 60 Minutes, I've got this great idea cuz I always. felt like 60 Minutes was a little behind. on like big cultural moments. I said. there's this incredible singer. and I think she's going to be the next. Madonna. She's so interesting. She went. to Catholic school, but she's so. outrageous and she is huge and she's. got, you know, a huge number one song. I think we should do a profile of this.

person, Lady Gaga. And they're like, "Mhm." And so they the. producer who now is a good friend of. mine called me and said you know, I. talked to Jeff and he said it's not for. us. And I said, "Okay.". Flash fast forward a year. and. uh she calls me and says, "Hey, I think. we should Guess what? Jeff wants to do. the piece on Lady Gaga." And I was like, "Okay, well, she's kind of overexposed. now. She was on the cover of Rolling.

Stone. She wore a meat suit to the Met. Gala or whatever she did. Remember that. all that stuff?". >> Oh, God, we'll never forget that. >> she had kind of exploded and I thought. you know, wouldn't it be nice to get. somebody right as they're about to pop. instead of a year later. But I said, "Okay. Well, that's great. Maybe we. could do a different angle. Maybe we. could talk to the nuns who educated her. at Sacred Heart and kind of talk about. this juxtaposition of her her background. and education and and this outrageous. singer she's become. So.

they said, "Great." So I I was all. excited. I went back over and they had a. whiteboard at CBS and they had the name. of the correspondent and the story next. to it. And I see Lady Gaga. Anderson Cooper. >> I [laughter] know. I. >> And I was like. >> What? Like this was my whole idea. Like. >> Right? >> What What do you mean? >> It made me crazy.

But that happened again with Hillary. Clinton. They said Jeff Fager, the. executive producer, said, "Katie, we. want you to do a profile of Hillary. Clinton as Secretary of State." I said, "That's awesome. Maybe I could really. focus on the work she's doing for women. and girls all around the world.". Suddenly, my producer is saying, "The State Department called. They're. very confused because Scott Pelley and. his team are calling about Hillary." So, I go to Jeff Fager and I say, "I thought you wanted me to do Hillary.

You told me explicitly that you wanted. to assign that story to me.". And he said, "Yeah, we decided to to. change things up.". It made me insane. >> I'm pissed. I'm like, Oh, and what's so frustrating is also. when men decide, "Oh, no, this man. should talk to this woman.". Oh, and you don't think the woman. talking to the woman is going to be a. better outcome? Like, it's And then also.

the woman who came up with the idea? >> Well, that's I think the point, you. know, that. that it was sort of a bald-faced lie, and then it was being done behind my. back, like without even. the decency to call me and say, "Guess. what? We've decided to reassign this. story and this is why." Instead, I have. to find out because the State Department. spokesperson tells my producer. So, like. stuff like that was,

you know, talk about getting gaslit. I mean, to me, that is the definition of. it. And so, those were some of the. really tough situations I had to deal. with when I was there. >> I think also something that. people. maybe can misconstrue is we see you on. television, right? And understandably, I. think there's so many people in the. world that are like, "You've made it. If. you're on TV, you've made it." And. there's almost this feeling like if you. are making it and you're on television,

then. all of the problems of sexism and. misogyny must go away. You're powerful. now, Katie. You're at the top. And I. remember um in your memoir you talk. about an early moment in your career. where an executive made a comment about. how you're only successful. because of your body. >> My breast size. >> I was going to say yeah or or your. boobs. Um. how did that conversation go down, Katie? >> funny cuz my husband and I are. rewatching.

Have you watched Mad Men? >> some of it and I it's so funny cuz my. mom just said, "You have not watched the. whole thing. You need to sit down and. watch it.". >> It is such a good show. >> Okay, I'm going to watch it now. >> It is really amazing and it's like. you know, I guess it takes place from. the late '50s to maybe 1970 and it's so. well done and the acting is so. incredible. Everything about it is and. it's just beautiful. Um but I I I watched some of the stuff. that was going on back then and I'm.

like, "Oh yeah, I kind of came of age in. this Mad Men era." It wasn't as bad as. it was. exactly, but I think about well I. graduated from college in 1979. and so I started working in television. news in the early '80s. and just the the way the behavior and. the way. you were spoken to and diminished, it. was like not that that's a good story. about the CNN guy, but even before that.

I was an intern at a radio station in. Washington and. I. walked in I went back to say hello, you. know, cuz I was graduating and I was. kind of trying to maintain. relationships. I wasn't quite sure what. I was going to do. and the general manager of the station. um I went and said hi and he said, "Are. you on the pill?". And I said, "Excuse me?". He said, [clears throat]. "Well, your boo- your breasts look much. bigger than they did last summer.".

Can you imagine? >> You know what? I was going to say no, and you know what's even sicker? Yeah, I. can imagine. I can imagine, Katie, because these men. >> like my whole body, you know, like when. something happens and you're get hot. >> It cuz you you kind of freeze, and you. don't know what to do. >> I was so taken aback, and then at CNN, the story you mentioned, is I walked. into like an executive kind of story. meeting, you know, a production meeting. in the morning, and I was filling in for.

the producer who was on vacation. And I. walked in, I don't know what they've. been talking about, but he said. something like, "That's not like Katie. She's been successful because of her. hard work, her writing skills, and her. breast size.". This was like a table, big table. surrounded by male executives. You know, a lot of them pretty young, cuz CNN was. kind of a bit of a startup back then. And. it it was just so crazy, but I had this. really incredible moment. This anchor I.

worked for named Don Farmer, and he was. married to Chris Curl. Don Don has. passed away. They were husband-and-wife. anchor team. And I came back, and I was. so like. flummoxed. I said I said, "This just. happened." And he said, "Sit down. We're. going to write him a memo together.". And he got on his little Smith Corona. typewriter, and together we wrote this memo saying, "What you said to me was inappropriate, insulting, sexist, and totally.

unacceptable. I expect an apology immediately. If you. do that, we can keep this between us.". In other words, I'm not going to go to I. didn't even know if they had human. resources back then. >> Right. I feel like I don't know who I'm. going to go to. I'm not going to go to. anyone. >> But how great that that, my friend Don. Farmer, said, "You do not have to put up. with that. We are going to write him. this memo. >> How I mean I mean what makes me just so. hopeful is like I do believe there are.

men in this world that actually will be. allies. And I remember talking about. that with Michelle when we were talking. I'm like, "What do we do?" And she's. like, "We have to bring the men in. because they are the ones in the. positions of power. So, we can't. completely alienate them over and be. like, 'We hate men.' It's like we need. them to be allies and to help advocate. for us in those moments. So, the fact. that you had a man also in a position of. power who looked at you and was like, "Let me also help you in this moment.". >> Right. >> It's invaluable.

>> I don't think I would have known what to. do. And I mean, honestly, I I I am so. grateful to him because not only did he. help me in that moment. I I get kind of. emotional. He helped me realize the. importance of standing up for yourself. So, it was it was a life lesson. that extended way beyond that incident. And it. I really owe him a lot and I I've always. really been grateful to him for that.

>> It's so incredible also, I think like. the power in numbers when you are going. through something and to have someone. stand by you. Not to be isolated, but to. be able to turn to your left or right. and have someone. Um because I think as. women also like it's real like. people can ask you, "Well, why didn't. you you know, like why aren't you going. to say something?" You're like, "Because. I'm I'm it's scary." You didn't know if. you were going to like lose your job. And you didn't know what was going to. happen. >> I didn't know who to talk to even. You.

know, I didn't know is there somebody I. can go to. >> Yeah. >> So. >> It's really it's interesting, Katie, and. I think this is why I knew it would be. so fascinating talking to you cuz it's. like the comments about your body, the. um. you know, the the sexism just in the. language of I I remember um one of the. nicknames people had for you was. America's sweetheart. And while yes, that's endearing to some capacity, it. does kind of remind me of the word perky. you brought up earlier because it it's.

um. >> It's fluffy. >> it's diminishing somehow. >> You're covering the most serious topics. in the world. You are talking about. stories. and then in in one sentence, in one uh. phrase, it's kind of making you sound. not serious. >> Right. I mean, I think also morning. shows are particularly challenging. because you have to be kind of warm and. welcoming. People have to sort of feel. comfortable and develop this parasocial.

relationship with you. But then you're called on to do serious. news. So, one of the reasons I think. that I was so well suited to do the. Today show because what we've talked at. the very beginning, it kind of allowed. me to show all different sides of who I. am. I could have fun. I could, you know, fly across the plaza as Peter Pan on. Halloween. But then I could cover 9/11. or interview Tony Blair or do, you know, go cover the Iraq war. And you know, so.

or the Persian Gulf War at the time. So, you know, it it really requires you to. flex so many different muscles, but I. think also. people who don't see the breadth of your. work can sort of say, "Oh, she's cute. and perky and fun and America's. sweetheart." And they discount the more. serious stuff. >> I'm um curious to, in your opinion, like. why do you think people are so.

skeptical. to. trust women in a position of power and. they're so trusting of men? >> I think it's I do think it's kind of. changed. I think we've been culturally. conditioned. You know, um. I think that. that I read this book called Blind Spot. because I did a documentary about sexism. in Silicon Valley and the tech world.

And, you know, from a very early age, our brains are taught to associate. certain images with certain roles. And I think those things are really hard. to unspool. And And so, I think that for. so long, all of our images of people in. power have been male. And And I think it just takes us like. you know, change different framing to. respect women in that role. And And, you.

know, as we mentioned a couple of times, and I know you interviewed Kamala. Harris, I think that. people are still, what for whatever. reason, have a hard time still accepting. women in positions of power and. authority. I do think it's changing. somewhat. Um but but I still think it's. there. I think that strain still exists. >> I agree. When Michelle said that she doesn't.

think that we are ready for a female. president, what is your take? >> I thought. it was a really sad statement. that is probably true. Um I think it's particularly right now, where there has been, I think, so much. backlash and regression in terms of the. progress that we've made in so many. different areas. Um. I think.

I think right now uh. I I I that's probably true right now. But I don't I hope it's not true for my. lifetime. I really really and I really. thought Hillary Clinton was going to be. elected president. I truly did and I. think she would have been a magnificent. a magnificent president. She is so. scary smart. Have you interviewed her? >> I have not. >> You have got to interview Hillary. Clinton. You will be blown away.

She is just brilliant and. she would have been wonderful, but I. hope, you know, I hope that I'll see a a female. president in my lifetime. >> said, she's like, "Prove me wrong. I'd. love to be wrong." I was like, "Shit.". >> Yeah. >> Um and I also think it's always, not. that we need to, but important to. clarify for all the women listening, it's not because a woman a woman's not. ready. >> Oh, no. >> of the sexism and the misogyny and the. patriarchy that's so ingrained in us.

like, "The woman can do the job just as. good if not better." And I think that's. something really apparent and I was. having this conversation with my mom the. other week. We were talking about how. it's so fascinating when you look at. the way that we speak about women from a. young age of like, "We Our brains. develop faster and we are more mature. and we are the class presidents and we. are the ones leading." And then you get. to college and there's like the frat. boys and then the women are like half.

the time doing these men's homework and. they're succeeding and they're driving. and then we get out of college and. somehow like he gets the job over the. woman that was the president of the. entire organization. You're like, "Wait. So, if we're always saying men are so. immature, they're so immature, it takes. them longer to mature." All of a sudden. we're like, "How did they leapfrog? Wait. How did that How did that happen?". >> it's cuz cuz if I think it's a. self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. I. think that people hire people who look. like them. And until you break that cycle,

uh you have men hiring other men who. they can relate to, they want to go to. the golf course with. And. and I think that. that it's this sort of. cycle and. and that's what we have to break. And. then and then, you know, we have to make. sure that women. want to bring up other women, too, you. know? And I think that's so challenging. I've always been fascinated like if.

you're ambitious and competitive, how do. you both compete with your female. colleagues and support them at the same. time? And I think that's such an. interesting conversation that really. deserves to be had. >> I agree. I think it's something that has. so much nuance and I do think it is the. right time to start having that. conversation because there is headway in. there is not just one woman in a room. anymore. Around, there's all women in. this room. You know what I mean? So, it's like but then how do we now get. into the phase two? Okay, now there's a.

couple of us in the room. Fabulous. We. made it, girls. Now, what are we doing. to actually ensure that we're all. lifting each other up? There's new ways. to do it. >> no matter what, even if there are a lot. of spaces, right? A lot of spots and. it's not um, you know, like what do they call it? Scarcity, right? >> mindset, yeah. >> That that it's still you know, competitive. And men are very. competitive, too, right? And. it's just a really interesting. conversation.

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back in the time was diagnosed with. colon cancer. You had to deal with it. privately, but you also had to deal with. it publicly. Like looking back, how did. you navigate both of those dynamics? >> It was terrible. You know, um it was so. out of the blue. that I remember. uh I got a call from uh we had an Irish. nanny named Nuala. and she called me and she said, "You. have to come home. Jay is doubled over.

in pain and he something is seriously. wrong." And I remember. meeting him. He didn't even have a. doctor. You know, he was 41. So many. men, you know, don't go to the doctor or. I I hope they do now more than they did. But. he didn't have a regular, you know, internist and so we met at my internist. and. uh I remember he said to us, "Don't. worry, it's not cancer.".

Even though it obviously was. And. you know, I went from. like being having this happy marriage, normal. you know, I'll see you when I get home. situation to your husband has stage four. colon cancer and it's all over his liver. and the prognosis is bleak. Like in in. in a nanosecond, everything changed. So. he was sick for 9 months and it was.

hell. It was hell. It was. you know, our girls when he was. diagnosed were one and five. And uh. it was. it was crushing and heartbreaking and. to see someone young and healthy and. smart and vibrant and loving and. incredible father and husband suddenly. facing this what was ultimately a death.

sentence was just excruciating. And so. uh. you know, you you get through it because. you have no choice, but it was horrific. Horrific. And I kept working and I I the. only respite I had, honestly, was when I. was on the Today show. That's the only time when I wasn't. thinking about it 24/7. You know, if I. had to do an interview, my brain just. couldn't couldn't contain two thoughts.

at one time. I had to really concentrate. on what I was doing. But as soon as it. went to commercial, I would just be. devastated again. And um. so it was really really hard. It was. really really hard. And then there was. the whole tabloid aspect. You know, people writing about it. Uh. You know, I remember a nurse Jay had to. have some surgery and a nurse came in. with the National Enquirer and said, "Look, you're on the cover of that. National Enquirer like Katie's private. pain." And I was like, "Why in the [ __ ].

would you do that to me? Like why would. you bring that in to our hospital room. to show me?" Like what an idiot. Um so, it was like trying to maintain his. privacy, our privacy as a family, being. a public figure. Um and obviously just. doing everything I possibly could to try. to figure out if there was any kind of. treatment, you know, anything that would. even treat this disease like a chronic.

illness. But back then there were very. few therapies available and um. Well, you can imagine. Imagine just. seeing somebody you love at such a young. age get sick and get sicker and sicker. and sicker. >> being able [clears throat] to do. anything about. >> No, and that's the thing. Like you're. like me. You know, you're probably like. I can fix this or I'll let's let's. figure this out. And that's what I kept.

saying to Jay, "We'll figure this out. We'll figure this out." And the thing is. there was nothing to figure out because. there was nothing to do. And I think. obviously there were so many. levels of this that were hard, but that. feeling of not being able to do anything. about it was just. you know, so hard. Yeah. >> And I think there's something it's like. you do that too because it helps you.

feel like. there's some you have some semblance of. control. Like cuz what else are you. going to do? Just sit there? >> Right. >> Like you're trying to convince yourself. like we got this. Like we're going to. figure this out. And it's like. it's to help you try to stay motivated. during a time where it feels like. there's there is no light at the end of. the tunnel and you're stuck and you. don't know what to do when you're. incapable of helping the person you love. the most. I can't imagine the pain. >> Well, that's why I became like a maniac. I would call pharmaceutical companies,

all my friends at NBC pretended like we. were doing a cancer special, which is. probably so unethical, but they would. call like. uh you know, to find out like a biotech. firm to find out about clinical trials. I would search the internet every day. We had and and unfortunately, like there. was just nothing and. he was sick for 9 months. That's all. And. um. >> I'm so sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was terrible, honestly, but so many families, you know, so many.

families go through this. I talked to so. many people who have. dealt with. cancer, but also other terrible diseases. like ALS and. that's why medical research is so. critically important and it just. infuriated me, Alex, that all these uh. millions of dollars were taken away from. scientists that that are that that will. be devastating to the progress we're. really starting to make in cancer.

research and other really terrible. diseases. >> Right, cuz it's like when you're in it, you see it so clearly of how much we. need to understand how to solve. something and you're sitting there like. screaming into a void and no one can. help you. >> is really a very complex disease, you. know, it's like a million diseases in a. million different biologies. And um my sister Emily, you know, just a. couple years after Jay died, she was. diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and she. it's so weird cuz I had I had never had.

anything bad happen to me. Like Jay, my. husband used to say I was born on a. sunny day. You know, I was just a very. and I still am, believe it or not, but a. positive person. And then like Jay died and then my. sister Emily died and it was just my 40s. were really, really hard, you know. >> I also think about you in that moment. You, you know, I I know you said they. were one and five and then I'm when your. husband at the time passed, they were.

two and six. You're a single mother, you're a working woman. You have to show up as a mom for these. young daughters, but also like how did. you handle also grieving? And like did. you ever give yourself the the grace to. grieve and to be upset and to be like. [ __ ] the world, this isn't fair or did. you just go kind of into autopilot mode. for them? >> think I the grieving process started. when Jay was diagnosed and I knew. the prognosis was so tough, even though.

I tried to be hopeful and I tried to say. we'll figure it out. I think I knew in. my heart that this was a very. challenging diagnosis. And you know, and. I think what was helpful to me is I. think when something like this happens, it's so isolating. But I I think, believe it or not, being. a public person, I got so much support. Like I got I had. bins and bins full of people who had.

written me sympathy cards and sent me. mass cards and all these things, just. complete strangers who I think and and. that was so comforting. And I think if. if. absent of that, you know, I think it. could have been an incredibly lonely, isolating experience. That's why I think. it's so helpful when people get together. in support groups and people have had. similar experiences. But in a weird way, that was.

extremely. um. helpful cuz I had so much support even. from people I had never met and that's. incredible. >> Wow. I think also there's such a difference. between moving on. and then moving forward. And as you then progressed, you went. back to work. You're finding, you know, your new normal with your family and. being a single mother and. eventually putting yourself back out.

there. But like how did you. move forward without feeling guilty? >> Yeah. I think it took a while. I kept. thinking of this. Thomas and Jeff Thomas Jefferson quote. It He said something like. the earth belongs to the living. And I remember thinking if this had been. happened to me and Jay was the surviving. spouse. that I wouldn't want his life destroyed, too.

And I think I just thought. you know, I always say we're all. terminal, right? We all have a finite. amount of time on the planet. And I wanted my children to be happy and. healthy. I didn't want this to destroy our entire. family unit. And so I really made a decision that I. was going to find joy. and and and find and and create a happy. home life for my girls.

And then ultimately I was like. I'm a very traditional person. I would. like to ultimately have a partner. And so. you know. I at some point just started dating and. everything and um you know, it was a. very strange thing cuz. cuz. you know, people would write about like. if I went out with somebody or whatever. It was it was hard, but. I ended up being single for a long time.

and having serious boyfriends that. didn't work out for one reason or. another. Um and now I've been very happily. married since. >> I know, I was thinking about that. >> 2014. Yeah. >> Yes, it was So it was like about 15. years after you lost Jay that you end up. getting remarried. How have you. been able to hold space for both of. those really major core relationships in. your life? >> What's great about John and I've often. said this, he.

has never felt threatened by Jay's. memory. And that is a beautiful thing. You know, he also he he says, you know, he. understands there's room in my heart to. hold two people at the same time. And. that's a real gift, you know? >> Oh, that's also someone that loves you. so much that like so much of who you. also are is because of that first. marriage and how much you loved that. person. And and it also allowed you to.

find your new husband. And so there's so. much positive in that. That's really. beautiful. >> Yeah, and that's I mean, if if if you. can find somebody like that, and you know, I also think we idealize. people who have passed away, you know? And my relationship with Jay wasn't. perfect. We had challenges in our. marriage. And I think kind of being clear-eyed. about that, too, um has has made me, you. know, made me much more receptive to.

being with somebody else and and uh. to. someone like John uh with whom I have a. different relationship, but a wonderful. relationship. So, I don't know. I think just all about. perspective and um. you know, I feel really really lucky. >> Call Her Call Her is brought to you by. SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where. you can bank, borrow, and invest all in. one place. Daddy gang, let's talk bank. accounts for a second. The average bank.

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alarm goes off, my first instinct is to. immediately immediately snooze. So, to. mix up my morning routine, I have. started using Hello's whipped. toothpaste, and it's actually completely. changed the start of my day. I have been. using the peppermint stick flavor, and. it's that perfect clean fresh feeling. that actually wakes you up. But, they. also have mellow mint dream, which is. like a little softer if that's more your. vibe. Um, the texture is super light and.

foamy, and of course, it still does. everything that you need. It prevents. cavities, strengthens enamel, and keeps. your breath fresh all day, which we all. need, okay? I also always keep a tube of. it in the office like or in my purse for. just like a quick refresh between. meetings. And a lot of times when I go. out on date nights because sometimes, you know, if you go a little rogue at. lunch at work and you're like, "Ooh, I. want that tuna salad." And then you're. like, "Oh my god, I have a meeting with. this person and I don't need to be. breathing in their face." I just whip. out my toothpaste, do a quick brush in.

the bathroom, and I'm in the clear. If you're looking for a fail-safe. toothpaste that takes you from your work. day to a date night, Hello's whipped. toothpaste is it. I'm telling you guys, experience the joy of Hello's whipped. toothpaste. You just got to try it. Buy. online or at a store near you. When I think about also, you know, you're talking about how you had never. had anything bad happen to you, and then. the series of events started to spiral. Um you are a major health care advocate,

and you are you co-founded the. organization Stand Up to Cancer um. a few years ago, you were diagnosed with. breast cancer. >> Right. >> And I'm like, Katie, I'm like, or Alex is like, >> When will it end? >> I just feel I'm like, oh my god, to go. through what you went through with your. first husband, then your sister, now. yourself. Like, how did the work that you had done in. the space and the experiences that you.

had had with cancer affect the way that. you approached this diagnosis and this. moment in your life? >> Well, I think when when you are. diagnosed with cancer or somebody you. love is diagnosed with cancer, it is. like being thrust into a world that with. a vocabulary you don't understand. It it it's like suddenly being thrust. into a foreign country that you you. don't speak the language, you don't. understand what's going on. I feel just. so fortunate. And And I kept thinking,

I'm so lucky. I have access to these. extraordinary doctors. And when your. health care really. depends on your your. checking account and your zip code, which I think is such a travesty that. all people don't have access to the best. medicine has to offer. I did, and I was. so grateful for that. >> I mean, now being cancer-free, congratulations. Um. my audience is primarily women, as I've.

mentioned. I know you're um you've been. working on a film Hormonal, >> Yeah. >> which discusses how inequity in medical. research funding has directly impacted. women's health. Can you share what has been the most. shocking or illuminating thing that. you've learned during the project? >> There's so much about this that is. shocking. I started to really pay. attention to this about five or six. years ago. I think, you know, my spidey sense is. really good. It's kind of seen these.

issues that are kind of bubbling up, cuz. I read I do some reading all the time, and. I started noticing that. there started to be a lot written about. health care and and these inequities. And, you know, for a while it really focused on. menopause and how menopause had been. such a taboo topic, but I realized that. really. from puberty.

to. old age, women have been dismissed and. marginalized, and the research about. them has been so underfunded. It is so. it it it was maddening, and I kept. reading, honestly, statistic after. statistic, and I saw how this um. this this um. impenetrable sexism. had really shaped our medical.

establishment and how scientific. research. has been conducted for decades for. decades where. women were really treated as small men. with boobs. And they weren't really studied because. it was thought that their hormonal. fluctuations. would screw up the research. So, I mean, I have had so many aha moments like this.

is insane that women weren't required to. be included in clinical trials until. 1993. It wasn't until 10 years ago that. scientists even differentiated between. men and women in their studies. Um, you. know, gosh, what else? I This is a. really great statistic that really. you know, makes me pissed. Um, that. erectile dysfunction. which affects 19% of all men.

has gotten five times as much funding as. PMS which affects 90% of all women. >> Let's just take a minute, Katie. >> Doesn't that say it all? >> Like. I don't even. >> Women have been so ignored, dismissed, marginalized, and I think 1% of global. global research dollars and investment. or innovation is invested in women's.

health other than cancer. I mean, honestly, I could Women take an average. of four extra years to be diagnosed than. men. Uh, we've been looking at endometriosis. The average time frame for a woman to be. diagnosed with that is 10 years. 50% of. women who have it are walking around and. haven't been diagnosed. And you know, there there and you look at the Women's. Health Initiative and estrogen. replacement therapy and how that was all.

screwed up and for 30 years like for. example because I have estrogen receptor. positive breast cancer, I can't do HRT. anymore. And can I tell you enjoy your. estrogen while you have it honey cuz it. is a wonder hormone. I mean it is it. it's responsible for making you feel. like it's it's a mood elevator. It's a. lubricator for your joints and a lot of. other things if you know what I'm. saying. >> Yeah. >> And um and and yet I can't take it now.

and I can't tell you how much I miss it. and because I cannot take extra extra. estrogen and I can't help but wonder if. this Women's Health Initiative hadn't. been. um you know prematurely stopped. if they would have figured out a way to. have estrogen that would not be. necessarily adhering to or or. exacerbating my breast cancer, right? >> Well, they definitely would have figured.

it out if it was affecting men. >> Right. >> They definitely would be like oh my god. well if this is affecting men like it's. it's so it's infuriating. It's. infuriating listening to that but I do. think that's why. I I'm so happy we're talking about it. >> It's great and we really hope to change. hearts and minds and public policy. because. you know like there are other other. statistics like 80% of auto immune. diseases affect women. And I don't you were an athlete in. college ACL surgeries.

uh. more women get them than men and they've. now thought that the rehab that they. have needs to be different than because. all the research has been on men and. ACLs and not on women athletes or just. women in general and ACL. Here's the. other one that really bugs me. >> Tell me Katie. >> Well, I'm sorry and then we'll we'll. move on to something happier but I am. really excited about this well, let me. tell you the statistic really quickly, but um two out of three.

people with Alzheimer's are female. And yet, only 12% of research dollars. goes specifically to female Alzheimer's, which is crazy. And the reason why your. hormones, these chemical messengers that. really are responsible for your whole. body's health, um you know, have a big role in all of. this. Like, what role is estrogen or. lack thereof playing in Alzheimer's? In.

immuno and autoimmune diseases, as I. said, 80% happen to women. And so, I I'm. really excited about this because I've. read about it. I'm sure you have in a. million different places, but I don't. think anyone has really connected the. dots. So, I'm working with Dawn Porter, who is an Emmy-winning. lawyer turned documentary filmmaker, and. Esther Deer, who's a Emmy-winning. director, and we are trying to kind of.

like. show the past, present, and the. potential for the future if. if our aperture on women's health. changes. And you know, only half of. medical schools even teach courses in. women's health. And. I was reading about crash test dummies. cuz I think it's this is so emblematic. of the problem. For so long, crash test. dummies were men. And they realized that more women like.

were were injured in head-on collisions. And so, they finally have female crash. test dummies, but I was reading about. it, and they're only required to be used. in testing. by 2028, which is just so insane. And I. just think that. it just shows the tentacles. of of what a patriarchal. system. leads to and and how it touches so many.

different aspects of our lives. But, you. know, I I just think that this documentary is. going to open a lot of eyes and put the. pieces together for people. And there. are a lot of green shoots, you know, we. don't want it to all be gloom and doom. There's a lot happening in the space. that is really exciting. I think we need. to get more venture capital in women's. health and startups, etc. So, um I'm. just really excited about the project. and and we're.

It's It's going to be great. I know it. >> what you're doing and I think. it's. needs to be talked about also because. there are people who are ignorant even. when you say like. women are not equal to men to this day. And people will say, "Well, what are you. talking about? Like that's not true.". And you're like, "Listen to what you. just said. We are an afterthought. We. are second-class citizens to men. They. are used as the option for every single.

decision decision that has been made in. this country." And then it's like, "Oh, and then we'll throw women in there." Or. "Oh, we'll eventually get to that." And. so, but we are so different than men. Like you just said, they think they. think of us as just like a man with. boobs. Like it's like, "No, no, no. Do. you have a There's uterus and this and. that." Like there's so much that we have. that we need to more information on that. we haven't had and we're not privy to. this information. And until probably. women start to be like, "We demand. this." Why would they change anything? >> Well, it's all in their favor.

>> Right. And it's exciting that more women. are going to medical medical school than. men. But, I think this this deeply. entrenched. sexism has a long tail. You know, and. and and this cultural conditioning which. I talked about, it just takes a long. time to to unravel. And um you know, I I. think I do see it changing, but we're. hoping to to give that change a a little. gasoline.

And and and and to make people we we. want to I mean, some of it is funny and. crazy how, you know, women have been. treated by doctors for so long. So, we. don't want it to be, as I said, all. gloom and doom. And we want it to be hopeful and we want. it to be fun and entertaining. And we. also want to make people mad and say, "You know what? This isn't right. We're. not going to put up with this. We demand. change.". >> Well, you pissed me off. I'm over here. literally like I'm like I'm pissed off.

I'm infuriated and I just want to play. that clip over and over and over until. everyone finally agrees like, "Yeah, maybe. maybe you're right. Maybe she you are.". Like we need we need change. And I I. love that you're talking about that. I'm. excited for this project for you and for. women and it's needed. So, thank you for. doing that. You are now an independent. journalist. You're no longer working. with a major network. What has that. shift been like for you? >> Well, you know, I don't have anyone sort. of over my shoulder saying this is what.

I need to do. I feel that. when I see something, I can say. something, as they say. You know, and I think that. this is a time where there's so much. much misinformation and disinformation. and there's so many people who are. getting their news and information. from a self-constructed. ecosystem. and echo chamber.

that. you know, I hope that people who have. watched me since they were in second. grade. see me as somebody who is a straight. shooter, somebody they can trust, somebody who. as painful as it can be can call out, you know, speak truth to power as they. say. and call out when I things think think. things are really wrong. um with what's happening in our country. and what our leadership is doing.

um and you know, but also call out when. I think you know. kind of across the spectrum things are. things aren't right. Um so it's been. incredibly liberating. I think. >> your career has been such a testament to. someone who has been. you know, you persevered, you prevailed. in the face of a lot of adversity, you. have rolled with the punches, you have. been someone who has um really made a.

name for yourself and although you in. moments had to yes, um conform slightly. to what a network was saying, you really. have found your voice in all of that and. I think as a woman who loves to. interview women, that's why I was so. excited to have you on today because I. think there are so many women who listen. again in different fields than us, but. who are looking for people like yourself. to hear from that it's like it's not. easy, it's going to be challenging, but.

we are sitting in a situation that. hopefully is going to be a little bit. better so our next generation that we. bring up also has a better time. Just. like you said, like the Mad Men days. Like things have gotten better since. then and we do have to look at some of. the positive um and so I just so. appreciate you talking through the. personal and the work and all of it. today because you're such an inspiration. to so many people and you're so wise and. you've you've gone through so much and. like thank you for sharing the. vulnerable sides and just going down.

this long journey with me. I was like I. think we could have talked for 10 hours. Um the The are going to shut off cuz. they're like ladies, but um. no, seriously, thank you Katie for your. time and everything. >> to you and I think, you know, I think it's hard. I think there are a. lot of challenges and I I do still think. it's it's still hard for for women who. have careers and want to start families. and I still think the division of labor. between men and women is still not equal.

and again, I think it's that cultural. conditioning that we just need to really. >> We're working on it. >> but I but I also think, you know, I feel. really lucky because. I found a career. that I have loved so much and that that. is really the crux of it for me. Like. how can I keep doing what I love to do. or how can I use it in service of.

others, not to sound too cheesy, but. like with my cancer work. And, you know, and for all the technological changes. that we bemoan and social media and. there are a lot of negatives to it. Let's face it. Like it has opened up a world for me. that has allowed me to continue to do. what I love and I'm so grateful for. that, you know? So. I I I wish for everyone listening or. watching that they.

they find this thing. that they enjoy, that they. that gives them purpose and like you. have, you know? And that's that's such a. gift and I think that if you focus on. like what is it that I love, what am I. good at, what do I want to do, how can I. contribute. that that you'll figure out all the. other things that are happening and a. way to continue to do what you love. And scene.

>> Katie Couric, thank you for coming on. Call Her Daddy. We have to end on that. >> Boom. >> And. >> good night, everyone. [laughter]. Katie, thank you. >> You're welcome. That was so fun. >> Oh. >> [music]. [music].