Jennette McCurdy: Half His Age

What is up, Daddy gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper with Call. Her Daddy. >> Janette Mccertie, welcome to Caller. Daddy. >> Thank you. Good to see you, Alex. >> Good to see you. You are officially my. first guest of 2026. >> That's so cool. >> It's really good. I feel like we're. kicking it off on a strong note. Are you. someone that does like New Year's. resolutions? I'm huge like huge into New. Year's resolutions and goals and I sort.

of map out my whole year. It never winds. up happening the way that I plan it to. but I'm very into like the workbooks and. the list making process. >> Like are you buying like a new notebook. for it? >> I do Aaron Condrin planners. I do the. Artist of Life workbook of them every. year. >> You're like laminating things. You've. got like a. >> my floral stickers. I like pin them in. the corner. Yeah. >> Okay. Wait. What are your New Year's. resolutions? And I sort of well I do I. do goals rather than resolutions and I. sort of break them down by season. This. is going to get really nerdy really. [laughter] really quick. >> Holy [ __ ].

>> And I take my favorite part of the year. is the week between Christmas and New. Year's and I take that week to kind of. evaluate my life and reflect on it and. think where do I want things to go and. then I I plan from there. >> Um I love this and you're going to make. everyone No, you know what? Cuz it's. funny. It's like by the time this is. out, everyone's going to be like, "So, I. had this goal and I'm already a week in. and I didn't [ __ ] do [laughter] it. God damn it." No, I'm someone that used. to do it and now I've just completely. stopped on like the concept of New. Year's resolutions. But I do like your.

vibe, which I do a lot of like goals. Like I'm like career goals. I've got in. my brain of like what I want my 2026 to. look like for me and my company and my. career. >> I don't say it's a resolution. >> We have to talk about this. No. >> Okay. because I feel I I have done the. same thing for so many years where I go. like my main focuses are my primary. focus is career my secondary is sort of. relationship what are my goals at these. two are the rest of like the pie chart. of life goes by the wayside who cares. [laughter] health what whoever we'll. figure it out but career is the thing. that's always driven me and just as of.

this year I've started thinking you know. because I've reached so many milestones. that I wanted to and I'm feeling the. success that I wanted to for so long. there's something about that that has. caused me to want to maybe reframe my. life a little bit and wonder what what. else can I do from this and do for. myself? Exactly. >> Oh my god, you're like, wait, should I. take care of myself this year instead. [laughter] of maybe like completely. focusing on work? Like what a concept. >> Wait, is there more than achievement? >> That is so relatable. So maybe actually, yeah, that's a good way to think about.

it this year. Make sure that your bucket. is not all career, >> right? >> Or not all one thing. >> It's just so I don't know. I feel like. it's such an easy thing to do because. it's I put so much of my worth in that. and identity in that. So, I want to try. to divvy up the worth a little. >> I love that we're talking about this. Meanwhile, I'm like, "You have a new. book coming [laughter] out." We're like, "You haven't stopped working." No. Okay. First of all, we need to talk about You. are the best-selling author of I'm Glad. My Died. Now, you have a new novel. coming out, half his age. Congratulations.

>> Thank you. >> How are you feeling? >> I'm so excited and I'm so proud of this. book. And I think this is I think. because I've I've left my kind of my. heart and soul on the line with this, I. do feel like that's what's motivated me. to go, okay, maybe maybe I take a step. back, maybe I take a breather and and. and re-evaluate things. But I think. that's because I've left it all. >> on the table. Exactly. >> Um, your memoir sold 3 million copies. and now it is being turned into a. television show. What has it been like.

working on that project? Um, it's been. interesting. It's been complicated. There are a lot of politics involved, which is not my forte. My favorite thing. is to sort of be It's really interesting. because writing for writing, you're. really rewarded for being truthful. And, you know, I'm showunning and creating. executive producing this thing and. producing you're kind of rewarded for. not being truthful. So, it's a lot of. like, okay, how can we tell this person. one thing but kind of do another? And so. it's it's been I I won't lie, it's been.

challenging navigating the politics of. it. And I feel much more connected to my. books. Like I'm so so much more excited. about talking about Half his age because. that's something that's 100% what I have. chosen. That's 100% every decision that. was made in the process of this is. something that I believe in and. something that I support and something. that I love. It's not been there's no. games involved. There's no like chess. match involved. It's just hey here's my. heart. Take it or leave it. It's crazy. cuz like we both have an inside look.

into the film and TV industry which I. know a lot of people watching may not be. fully privy to and it's like. >> it's horrifying. >> It's literally. >> horrifying. [laughter]. >> It's so crazy. Like I was on a call the. other night with my husband. We were. talking about this one show and it's. like. >> we were helping our friend and we're. like man managing directors and this and. this and we're like oh my god all the. optics and all the egos and all the. things and it's like not even about the. project. It's about like stroking one's. ego and make it and it's a dick size. competition and it's like there's so. much that goes into it. So I can imagine. that writing for you it's like you are.

writing about and it's you in a room and. it's all on you and. >> it's truly freedom. >> It's freedom. Okay. But before we move. on from this TV show that's causing you. stress, but it's going to be great. Um. Jennifer Anderson is playing your mom in. the show, right? >> Yeah. That's so crazy. Um. >> it's so wild. >> What conversations have the two of you. had? She actually has I don't want to. speak for her, but um I think she's said. this publicly, so I hope she'd be. comfortable with me sort of re-sharing, but she has a lot of um she relates to.

the material a lot. And so in that way, we've really really connected. And I. think it's kind of the only way to do. this project is to be doing it with. people who relate deeply to the. material. Otherwise, it's a moot point. If somebody's just doing it for the. wrong reasons, I think it really gets. lost in a project like this. I think. that can work for a lot of projects, but. I think for something that comes from. this personal of a place, it's other. people have to relate that deeply or it. just, you know, gets watered down. >> I can't wait to see it. Um, >> thank you. >> This new novel centers around a. relationship with a very clear power and.

balance between a 17-year-old and her. high school teacher. Yeah. >> What made you want to explore this. theme? You know, I'm really interested in. themes of desire and power and the. things that we desire being confused. with some form of power. I think, you. know, sex being the most prominent. example. When I was younger, I really. confused sexuality with power. When I. first started developing and first. started feeling, you know, attractive to. men and started getting that kind of.

attention, I really believed that was. power. And I really believe now as a. 33-year-old, it is not. And um and I I. think one of the biggest motivators was. was maybe anger. Some anger I felt. toward situations I'd I'd been in in the. past that you know uh sort of emulated. some version of the dynamic that's in. the book. Um and anger is a really uh. useful emotion for me in writing. I find. it to be kind of the place that I write. what I think the most effective work.

from. And I didn't even realize it at. the time. I I thought why is this the. thing that's coming out? out and then. I'd try to check that part of my mind. and just keep keep typing, keep typing. And then after looking back a few drafts. later, a few drafts, I mean, it's been. many many drafts now, but a few drafts. in, I realized, oh, I'm still really. [ __ ] angry about some of this and. this needed to come out in this way. And. I think I I assume a lot of women will. feel really angry reading this, whether. they've been in a a significant age gap. relationship or just any kind of.

relationship where they haven't really. had their needs met, where they've. really clawed or embarrassed themselves. to attempt to have their needs met. I. think unfortunately so many of us can. relate. And I hope that in some way if. there's some anger kicked up for people. that that it's useful in their. processing of their own experiences. There's so much that I know my audience. is going to be able to take from this. and I think it's important that before. we almost get to. that and your personal experience and. what kind of inspired this novel. I do.

want to go back and I want to talk about. some of the ways that power and control. showed up in your childhood because. obviously those are the most formative. years and talk about those experiences. with your mother. Um and then fast. forward Yes. and get to more like the. relationships. So, are you down to go. back? We're going back to childhood. Let's go back. >> Good old childhood. >> Haven't spent enough time in childhood. and therapy, so might as well. >> Perfect. >> Let's just relive it. Um, okay. Your mom. was diagnosed with cancer when you were.

really young, like two. >> I was two. I was 2 years old. >> Okay. How did this shape your family. dynamic? >> Wow. What a beautiful uncomfortable. question that I appreciate. um our whole family the the way I. describe it is that it felt like it was. a held breath and that it was like okay. when's mom going to die it was stage. four metastatic ductal carcinoma. [snorts] um and you know she had a a. masectomy and she had bone marrow. transplant radiation chemotherapy it was.

really really um dire it it was really. serious and me being at that age it's. really pretty preverbal and I I I I. think that's really uh I think that. really influenced my life for a long. time. I think feeling the weight of the. gravity of okay, this person's death is. imminent and obviously not being able to. articulate any of that or put any words. to it or understand it. It's just a lot. of adults looking at you, a child, with. this grave, serious, oh, it's going to.

be hard kind of look. So, I think some. of my earliest memories are of like. church ladies with quafted hair and. casserles standing in front of me with. pity and looking really like, "Oh, you. poor thing." And so I think that. definitely did influence some of my. initial narratives about the world and. how it works and how scary it is and how. uh yeah how scary it is and and that's. that's been a process to reframe those. narratives and and find new ones. How do. you think. that kind of taught you to prioritize.

your mom's wants and feelings over your. own? Oof. I mean, I think that was maybe. the most pivotal piece that caused me to. do that. I felt like she could be gone. at any moment. And I think when you're. young, you don't necessarily know what. you need, but you know, the person in. charge can help you with that. And so, I. think it was a a mode of survival that I. was in for a long time of how how can I. do whatever I can to help keep my mom. alive because if my mom's alive, then.

I'm safe. And how do you think your mom's sickness. impacted the way that you thought you. were allowed to just like feel about her. as a whole? Like could you ever be. [laughter]. >> like, "Oh, I don't Oh, wait. Well, she's. sick, so I can't like were you ever able. to feel like you could be annoyed or. resentful or. >> Wow. Wow. You've gone deep." No, I think it's I. think it's both because of my mom's. cancer and because I grew up Mormon. And. I think those two things are really uh.

they they they uh are in tandem with. guilt. They're really sort of rooted in. guilt. It's like, okay, there's this. person has cancer. She's dying and. you're Mormon and you have to be nice, nice, nice, nice, nice. So, it was. really I would feel such profound guilt. if I even thought an annoyed thought or. felt anything that was other than, oh, mommy's the greatest thing that I think. I would just stuff down that annoyance. any resentment that was brewing, I would. stuff it down. I any anger, I would. stuff it down. And it was just, okay, I'm allowed to feel these three emotions.

and anything else is bad. So, I can't. feel that, and I'm going to just keep. stuffing it down until eventually, of. course, it can't stay stopped forever. And it came up. You were two when she. got sick. So, she went into remission, though. At some point, she became. healthy. >> Yeah. >> Was she in remission and then she was. healthy by when you were four? But then. when you're 10, this is still a topic of. conversation. Do you know what I'm. saying? How long did this linger and. play out? >> Yeah, she she went into remission um. within I want to say like a year and a. half. Uh somewhere around there, but she.

really in my eyes um utilized her. cancer. You could say utilized, you. could say weaponized, one's a little. more judgmental, but I I think either. one's appropriate, honestly. Um she. really did not let me or I have three. older brothers or any of us forget, you. know, mommy had cancer. Mommy could go. at any minute. The cancer could come. back at any minute. It was a constantly. used phrase in the household is mommy's. cancer could come back at any minute. So, it was kind of we were living in. this state of okay, she's better, but. not really like it's going to come back. at some point and that's going to take.

her and that's going to destroy our. family. And so, it was really just this. tense um tense feeling in the household. I mean, eggshells feeling all the time. You obviously were a very successful. child star and that was not something. that you decided for yourself. Your mom. made that choice for you. What do you. think that she was trying to achieve by. making you act at such a young age? And. how old were you? >> I was six when she put me in it. Um I. think she was trying to if I like feel.

into what I think I think she was trying. to be seen, feel seen um through me. I. think she was living vicariously through. me. I think she felt really I guess I'll. never know, but really what I my my gut. instinct is that she saw it as an. opportunity to feel seen because she. never really did. She never felt she got. the attention that she needed or her. needs met or whatever. And so she. thought this is an opportunity for that. to happen. Um and I think at first it. kind of did seem like it was it was.

useful in that way for I think at first. it did make her feel when I would get. recognized, I could just see her face. would just light up, just blow into the. hugest smile and she'd be so thrilled. But what type of pressure did that put. on you as a child? >> Uh, a lot. So much. >> Did you recognize the pressure. initially? Like, did it ever feel fun? >> No. Oh my god. Oh my god. No. Um, yeah, it was really a lot of pressure.

you're asking questions people haven't. asked before. So, it's really. interesting because I'm sort of like. finding it as I go, you know, but it's. your time. >> Thank you. It it it really just my life. just felt like pressure for so long. And. that kind of ties into what we were. talking about earlier with like trying. to find what are the other aspects of. the pie chart of life because I think. from such an early age I was so. programmed for achievement, success that. equals mom's happiness. Mom dies, then. it's like, okay, but still achievement. and success equal happiness. And then. it's like, okay, now I've achieved. things. What else is there? There have.

there has to be um other means of of. joy. And I know that there are and and. there it just it can't be the thing that. I think you plant a flag in. But I think. that's what I did from an early age was. okay, success equals mom's happiness. Achievement equals mom's happiness. Let's achieve. Let's succeed. Let's do. whatever it takes. Did you ever. recognize when you were younger that you. were the bread winner of the family or. was it kind of smoking mirrors? >> I think I started to realize that around. around 13. 12 is when I started really, you know, making consistent money. I had.

booked a bunch of guest star roles that. year and commercials and things that. were bringing in more steady streams of. income than beforehand where it had been. kind of more sporadic. Um, and that's. when I remember, you know, I would. overhear my parents' conversations and. okay, well, she can cover that, we can. get this and that and that'll be fine. and because she got the Sprint PCS. commercial. So it it it did um I think. there was an added layer of kind of. pressure at that point of okay so I need. to kind of take care of my family and. this is the way to do that. This is this. will be helpful. Looking back how do you.

think the financial success that you. were having impacted the power dynamic. with your mother? >> I wish it had impacted it. Like I wish I. was just a little like diva rolling. around like mommy give me my latte. you. know, like just saying what I wanted and. what I needed. Instead, I feel like I. was really just kind of a. Everybody says this, so I'm wary of. saying it, but it was I do feel it's. truth. I was kind of a chronic people.

pleaser and trying to like so consumed. with being polite and saying the right. thing and saying, you know, the. appropriate thing and the thing that the. person needs to feel okay about. themselves. And so that was kind of that. was my my mode of operating. My primary. mode of operating was how can I just. make this other person feel comfortable? Meanwhile, I was a nervous wreck, uncomfortable ball of stress um for so. so so long. You mentioned that you it. was never fun. You're like, "No, oh my.

god." You like almost laughed. You're. like, "Oh my god, no. Acting was never. fun. I was always stressed. I was always. like, "Oh my god, I've got to go and do. this to make my mom happy." Were you. ever able to articulate that to her. like, "Hey, mom, I'm not loving this.". >> Yeah, there's one memory that comes to. mind. And also, I will say, you know, there was an aspect of I did feel I was. good at it at a certain point. I wasn't. initially like I really was very stiff. in my body and really um like I just. couldn't access the thing that I feel. like makes for good acting. Just that.

leading off of instinct and impulse and. just kind of being free. I couldn't. access that for a long time. Once I. started being able to access that, I did. feel good at it, which was helpful. It. was nice to feel good at something. I. think that's just universal, right? It. feels good to be like, "Okay, I'm good. at this thing." But um but no, there was. one time when I I had tried to bring it. up to my mom and said like, "I really I. don't want to act anymore." I was in the. car. Uh we were in our old Ford Winstar. on the 101 and she really instantly went. into that kind of the mood switch that. she was really really common to her.

where it was, "What? No, you're going to. break mommy's heart. What? No, you're so. good. This is our chance. This is our. chance. This is our family's chance.". And it's I mean it's hysterics. It's. that but it's like tears pouring down. the cheek screaming like really really. hysterical response. And so as a kid I. think it's impossible not to program. that as okay don't do that again. Don't. ever say that again. That's not an. option. That's not okay. >> But that's also programming of speaking. up for yourself. As a child you were. essentially taught don't do that. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. This is this is this.

is the thing. This is the thing. This is. the theme of my life is how can I find. opportunities to speak up for myself to. voice my opinions to you know even if it. means somebody doesn't like me even if. it means it's hurt somebody's feelings. how can I be authentic in myself because. so much of my childhood and adolescence. was rooted in being inauthentic to. please other people and your primary. caregiver is essentially manipulating. the situation in front of your eyes. where she's becoming the victim she's. becoming this poor poor person because.

if you don't keep doing this then. mommy's going to be so upset. Okay. So, there was an extreme amount of. pressure being. like, "Hey, can we turn off for a second. and me not be the actress and me go to. my mom?" She's essentially saying, "I'm. not having it. Keep the keep keep it. moving.". >> I didn't feel like she wanted and I know. and it's I know she was trying her best. and and it also makes me sad that that. was her best, right? It really makes me. sad. I know she had a lot of trauma.

growing up. I know she was in a really. difficult position. I I sympathize with. that, but also work on yourself a little. bit. Like, come on, you got four kids. See them a little bit. Maybe maybe try. seeing them. What would that look like, Deb? Um, but I didn't really feel that. she did that. I felt it was it was just. kind of, you know, if if I'm being a. character, then it's, oh my god, you're. Josie and you're so good at being Josie. You're so good at being this character. But it wasn't, what's going on with. Janette? Are you okay? Seemed like you. were dealing with a lot of pressure. How.

can I help? Okay. For kids though, did. you ever get resentful of your other. siblings because I know you've said that. you were the main focus obviously of. your mother. >> Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of pressure. on me and then on my oldest brother. Marcus and then my two middle brothers. um Dustin and Scott did for whatever. reason did not have the same standards, did not have the same um goalposts that. my mom just didn't have that for them. They could play video games hours every. day and that was fine by her. I don't. know why she sort of chose Marcus and. myself. Um, and I think at a certain.

point I did feel I did start feeling. some resentment. Um, I c I really don't. anymore. Um, but you know, as a as a. teenager, as a kid and a teenager, it. was hard to see, well, why why are the. standards so different from them? And. I'm sure they felt it toward me cuz it's. like, why is mom giving Janette so much. attention? Why is she doing all this for. her? She doesn't I'm sure some of their. video game playing was some kind of act. of rebellion because, well, she doesn't. care about us. She's taken her to CSI. auditions, Law and Order SVU auditions. Like, she's letting us play Donkey Kong.

Country. >> Oh my god. And meanwhile, it's And. you're like, I'd rather be playing. Donkey Kong and you go do the CSI thing. But it's like that's also just like. creating such a triangulating situation. where you're she's dividing all of you. So like you're resentful of your. siblings somehow. Really, they could be. your allies, but there's such a. triangulation that you're like, I can't. even turn to you cuz I'm resentful of. you. But then you're like, wait, no. Now. you can see you can have commonality. with them and you can like now not be. resentful, but in the moment it's a. little too strategic. >> 100%. And I've I've really tried I' I've.

begged them to tell me like please tell. me everything. How uncomfortable was. that for you? How frustrating was it for. you in and they're just they're so kind. They they they don't they don't go. there. But I I'm open if sometime they. do. I'd love to hear I really would cuz. I'm sure there's a lot of uncomfortable. stuff in there for them somewhere. Or or. maybe not. Maybe there you know maybe. not. But I would imagine there there. there is. you have talked about and. written um about some of the extreme. codependency tactics that your mom used.

growing up like not allowing you to. shower by yourself. Um making you share. a diary with her. You couldn't have your. own. You had to share it with her. Like. >> how did that impact your sense of. identity and more importantly freedom? >> I didn't feel I had either. I guess um I. I really didn't feel I had either. Writing has been a such a profound. source of identity for me. It's been the. place where I have found myself and um.

and and learned about myself and. explored myself. And I I I don't I can't. imagine what it would have been like if. I didn't um if I didn't have writing. I. feel like it would just be kind of a. floundering existence of like who am I. without her and what you know? It would. just be very very confusing. you had your mom even start to control. your body and what you ate. Um, how did. she initially start to explain these. intense dieting strategies to you? This.

is where it gets so this is where it. gets really complex, right? And it's so. um specific and anecdotal and whatever, but I because she had had breast cancer. when I was so little. I one day wake up. and I feel like a lump in my right. breast, right? I'm like, "Oh my god, I. have cancer. I'm dying." That's my. thought. So, I go to my mom and I say, "Oh no, I have a lump." Not realizing. that's breast tissue developing. I'm I. was 11 years old at the time. It. happens. Um, and she instantly kind of.

there was no moment of, "Oh, you know, you're just you're developing and this. is normal and we'll get you a training. bra and we'll whatever and this is the. process." It was just, oh, oh my god, we. got to get you on a diet plan kind of. thing, you know? And so it was then we. would team up together. um and count our calories together every. day. And I'm smiling because it's like. it felt I'm remembering how it felt fun. for me at the time. It felt like a a. form of connecting with my mom at the. time. Oh, we can write down everything.

that we eat. And we had two bites of. this shrimp scampy lan cuisine and like, you know, just whatever the little. things were that we ate that day. And. then we'd compare our notes and then she. would advise me on the next day and what. we could do and how we could streamline. a little bit more, cut back a little bit. more. Her thought being, you know, if. you develop early that's more likely. that you'll get cancer. I think that's. one of her things and she was really, really scared of me getting cancer. Fair, right? And then I think the other. thing is she really just did not want me. to grow up. I think me growing up.

represented to her differentiation of. the two of us. And I think that was very. very uncomfortable for her. Very. uncomfortable for her. the the idea that. oh Janette's a different person from me. because that means she can't live. vicariously through me anymore right if. I'm a different person I have my own. wants my own priorities my own goals. aspirations and she can't sort of. intercept that anymore and I think that. was really really threatening to her so. I think puberty was really threatening. to her and therefore she doubled down on. the control. >> exactly so through you know using this.

almost as a bonding moment. >> how do you think do you think your. dynamic shifted in terms of you actually. got closer through the eating disorder. >> Yes, absolutely. Okay. I I think we I. mean I had been so close with her for so. long or I thought that I was I thought I. was the close that really is thought I. was genuinely intimate with her. Only. years later did I realize it was. completely not that. It was not that. But uh but the eating disorder stuff. really really bonded us in a way that.

was like this is our thing. We're in. this together. It was very secretive. We're not doing it in front of the whole. family. We're not comparing notes of. what we ate today and counting our. calories together and tracking things. and planning out meals the next day in. front of everybody else. It's after. everybody falls asleep and then we do it. in the kitchen or we do it in on the. couch and we sit there and nobody else. is home and we figure that out together. So, it was this really kind of secret. bond that I think fueled the the. disordered thinking in such a. significant way because it was that. thing that we had together. >> Yeah. control and um suppression of anger are.

tied to developing an eating disorder. >> How did those two states of being relate. to your mother? [laughter]. >> I'm think [snorts] I don't know why I'm. like thinking of anger. I'm thinking of. suppressing anger. It's it's such a. theme in my life. I think it's something. that's so important to feel. fully and be able to stand with yourself. in. And it's been that's the one that's. the one that I really was like that's a. bad one so we can't go near that. Um.

what was the question? Did you feel her. anger ever? [laughter] Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. I mean she would chase my dad. around the house with a steak knife. Like there were there there were. outbursts frequently. There were mood. swings constantly. Outbursts frequently. daily I would say. You know our neighbor. Bud would like peer his head over the. fence and say he was going to call. social services and we need to do. something about this. And it was it was. really kind of public knowledge at at a. certain point where was she couldn't. hide it anymore. And it was okay there.

there's a lot of anger here. Um but I. was just scared of her anger. And I. think being so scared of her anger is. what made me really unable to process my. own see my own in any way. Um, and I. think I also think this is I don't want. to speak for my brothers, but I do sense. this theme where like we all have this. thing where we're polite and we're, you. know, yes, of course, and oh my god, yeah, no, I would never. And like really. trying not to offend people, but I kind. of want nothing more than my brothers to. just be like, I'm [ __ ] angry. Like I. just want to see that in them cuz I I. know how helpful it's been for me and I. hope to just continue exploring anger.

more. >> Well, you never had any other option. other than to be prim, proper, and. perfect. And so then again, that then. creates even more anger where children. should be able to have a moment where. they have a tantrum and they lash out. and they're angry and they're upset and. then they are consoled and they're held. and they're listened to and they voice. their feelings and then their parent is. supposed to be like, "I hear you. Let's. make sure this gets done and happens for. you." And for you, you're like, "How can. I make sure mom is okay and mom doesn't.

have a t temper temper tantrum and mom. is and so you've never been able to be. like, "What does Janette want?". >> Yes. >> Ever. >> Yes. And I think, you know what what the. memoir made me realize is how. unfortunately common that is. I mean, that's the biggest thing that people. tell me when they come up to me is that. they had that same experience with their. parent and there, you know, they. couldn't vocalize their own needs. They. couldn't stand to themselves. They. couldn't feel their own emotions. >> because of the power imbalance. >> Exactly. Exactly. How are you going to. tell your mother? >> Exactly. >> Six, seven, you're going to stand up to. your mother. 10, 13.

>> Well, actually, I'm feeling some. resentment toward you. >> It's not even a No. >> Um, you said that you didn't know what. anorexia was until you overheard your. mom talking about it with your doctor. >> Yeah. >> When do you think it finally started to. really sink in that your mother was. actively not only enabling but also. encouraging an eating disorder? I think. I mean in that moment when I heard her. speaking with the doctor, it was when I. first started piecing things together of. okay, at that point we'd really been in. the trenches of cataloging everything we.

wrote, restricting calories, really. monitoring, weighing me all the time. She'd measure my thighs. All of these. behaviors had been in play for a while. And then hearing my doctor speaking with. her, I didn't know, you know, I was I. guess I I don't know, I was maybe 11 or. I was 12 maybe at that point. And so I. didn't know exactly what was going on, but I I had a feeling that gut instinct. something was wrong. And I shoved that. gut instinct down and I said, "Okay, there's no place for that because mom. would never do that to me, right? Mom. would that would not come on. She's my. mom. Whatever. Give her the benefit of.

the doubt." And I just kept giving her. the benefit of the doubt at the expense. of my own selfrust. uh for for a long time. For a long time. Um I know that you've been eating. disorder free for years. >> Yeah. And you said on your podcast that. you can now finally accept and love your. appearance. Can you talk about how you. were able to get to that point? >> Well, my my the therapist I saw. specifically for eating disorders was. really instrumental in the process. His. name was Jamie Farquar. He was in.

Toronto. I was working on a thing at the. time and saw him and he did a mixture of. he worked with me with um you using DBT. and schema based therapies. And I think. the modalities are really specific. because I think something like CBT, I'm. like a therapy nerd, right? But like. CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy is so. much talking that for a person like me. who I'm already in like I'm in my head. enough. We don't need to spend we are. good. We don't need to spend any more. time up there. So DBT really helped me. to kind of unravel my thought process.

and assess it in a way that was more. scientific and clear-cut. And then. schema based therapy was more the. feeling kind of sense of things and. understanding the root of the traumas to. then unpack from there. And I think. those two modalities were really really. really pivotal. I don't know if it I. would have had the same results from any. other kinds of like ecoin therapy like. what like petting a horse or whatever. people do like I don't know if that's. going to do it for me or fingerpainting. my trauma not going to work for me. CBT. I don't think would have been as. effective but those two modalities were. really really effective. I suggest them. for anyone anybody you know anyone who's.

struggling with it. I think I think. there's a lot of promise in those two. modalities. >> What was the biggest challenge that you. had to overcome in your recovery. process? >> Uh there was this moment early on where. um Jamie had encouraged me to uh see he. said what in what ways is your eating. disorder helping you? And I was shocked. I was what are you talking about? Like. I'm sitting here to try to get over this. thing. I don't want to do have this.

anymore. or I don't want to be throwing. up [ __ ] eight times a day. I'm tired. of this. I'm exhausted. I don't What do. you mean? What good is it bringing you? He goes, "Well, you have to accept that. it's bringing you something good in. order to move through it and find. something that can bring you at least. something as effective, if not more, preferably more, so that you can replace. this with that new thing." And so really. recognizing its value was this odd kind. of process of going, okay, I have to. really accept that this thing was a. positive for me in certain ways and. really helped me survive in certain.

ways. Um, and it felt really. counterintuitive, but I but I think it. was very helpful to the process. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Isn't that wild? >> Interesting. >> I think it was my first realization of. the gray areas of life. I'm such a like. I tend to be such a black and white. thinker and I like to compartmentalize. in that way because it makes things. simpler, right? It makes okay, this is. the villains and the victims. this is. the good and the bad, this is whatever, and I can put it in these two buckets. But that was the beginning of realizing, oh, life is a gray area. Like, it's not. so clear-cut. It's not so simple. And. trying to make it that way is actually.

pretty unhelpful cuz you're going to do. the pendulum swing instead of finding. that balance somewhere in the middle. Um, you also wrote about and have talked. about that the first time you went to. therapy, you quit because you couldn't. handle the thought of your mom being. abusive when you started to get. underneath all of it. What do you. remember about that first session? >> Oh my god. Feeling like my body was on. fire when that was even kind of. suggested to, you know, you know, your. your your mother it's is abusive. This. is, you know, she kind of laid it out. for me and I just felt instantly like I.

have to run. It was that fight orflight. instinct. I can't do this anymore. This. is not I can't go near this. I I. couldn't face it. It was quite, you. know, a while before I was able to fa. reconsider it and face it again. >> Where do you stand today with how you. feel about your mom? I'm able to just miss her sometimes, which is something that I will take full. credit for. You know, I think. um she the she left me with a lot of.

[ __ ] to to kind of parse through. And. the nail in the coffin being when I. realized that when I found out from my. who I thought was my dad that he was not. in fact my dad. And that was came a year. and a half after her death. And so that. was the kind of piece of information. that I needed to go, okay, let me. consider that maybe this person didn't. have my best interest at heart all the. time because she couldn't, because she. wasn't capable of that. And there was so. much anger initially. There was so much. frustration, so much hurt and pain, but.

really just masked with with deep deep. anger. And I I really don't feel angry. at her anymore. Um, and I think that's because of the work. I've done. And also, if I'm being. totally candid, I think because because. the book was successful, like I don't. know if it had just gone like I I I. cringe saying that, but it's also true. where it's like if the book had petered. out and whatever, like would I be. sitting here being like I'm happy with. where I'm at? It's all it's like almost. you got the closure that you deserved. from all the pain and you were able to.

pour into that book everything in you. with regard to your mother. But then I. can't help but think like [snorts] you. finding out that the father that you. thought was your biological father your. entire life wasn't but she was dead so. you couldn't even ask her these. questions like. >> yes. >> another form of resentment of like are. you [ __ ] kidding me. >> why did she not say that when she knew. she knew she was right this wasn't a. sudden thing it's not like she died in a. car accident didn't have an opportunity. she knew for years she knew for years. when I was two I get why you don't tell. your children then she knew again when I. was 18 and my siblings were all three.

five and nine years older than I was so. we were at that age where You could have. it would have been uncomfortable. It. would have been painful. Of course, >> you would have gotten the answers. >> Exactly. I would have gotten the. answers. I would have gotten some. closure. And honestly, I would have. respected her more. Like, say the. [ __ ] truth. It's I think it's I I. think it's really been helpful though. for my life in that way that it's really. led me to recognize what a value truth. is. Um that my my senses are up for for. any anything that's [ __ ] And I. can't [ __ ] stomach it. And it's I'm.

at this place now where I don't care. I'm not going to say the thing I'm. supposed to say. I'm not going to say, "Oh, I'm so grateful for whatever like. stareyed [ __ ] idiot." Like, you know, it's it's worth it to be honest and I'm. hopeful that that helps somebody who. needs to to hear it and and needs to. find that path of truth themselves. It's. also so sad but symbolic of on her way. out she couldn't grant you this one last. thing that would actually really be. quite helpful for you and who you are. and your development and your story.

because it's your life too and for her. to take that um I do think it kind of. wraps back to like yes we're looking for. truth within people but half the time. like you can't rely on anyone in terms. of to be a good person with integrity. and be honest and So sometimes you have. to stop looking for the truth and just. >> know your truth and keep it moving. >> Do you feel like you can rely on or. there like do. >> I have a lot of people I've like learned. that I can rely on. But I think. >> yeah in life I've had like a lot of ones.

where I'm like. wait like you want to shake someone and. be like this is not true. This is not. happening. And and you can drive. yourself down the barrel of like I must. get them to tell me what and it's like. why am I tr making this so much harder. on myself? Leave. Just leave. >> Right. >> Yes. Yes. >> Like and would you even believe them if. they said it's the truth? >> God. Yes. Yes. >> Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Zach. Do.

Okay. Do you remember [music] that. doctor's appointment you were supposed. to make a while ago? Talking to myself. and all of you listening and watching. Yes. The one you meant to book, but then. you got distracted and you completely. forgot about until now. Me reminding. you. Maybe it's a dentist appointment. Maybe it's an overdue annual checkup. Either way, let this be your sign to. finally book it today. Zachdoc is a free. app and website where you can search and.

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stop putting off those doctor. appointments and go to zdoc.com/daddy. to find and instantly book a toprated. doctor today. That's zooccdoc.com/daddy. This message is sponsored by Zacock. Listen, Daddy gang. Winter is here. I. know it's freezing out there and I know. the sun is setting insanely early, but. hear me out. Just because we have to.

throw a couple extra layers on doesn't. mean we can't still enjoy ourselves, right? And that includes finding some. time to crack a few claws with our. friends. Whether you're at your favorite. dive bar, warming up in the crowd at a. concert, or just having friends over to, you know, watch a football game, the. best winter nights are really just about. doing something together. Personally, I. love getting together with my friends in. the winter because it's an excuse to. make every hangout even cozier. I'm.

talking blankets out, fuzzy socks on, and white claws in hand. There is. nothing better than sitting by a fire. with your friends catching up all night. long and never leaving the house. So. pick up a pack from your favorite local. spot and grab life by the claw with your. favorite flavor this winter. Please. drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with. flavors white claw seltzer works Chicago. Illinois. Okay, power and control. As we've been. discussing these themes obviously and.

they are a huge conversation and theme. in your new book Half his age. Can you I. know we kind of talked about it earlier. but can you just kind of set the scene. for my listeners of like what this novel. is about? >> Yeah. The main event of the novel is a. high school a senior in high school's. sexual relationship with her creative. writing teacher. But to me in a way. that's kind of I guess similar to I'm. glad my mom made it. That's sort of the. the the the main event the big noisy. event. But underneath it's really about.

desire and loneliness. And why do we. desire things that might not be good for. us? And why do we so desperately paw at. the things that we desire even if we. know deep down they're not good for us? Why do we still pursue them so. relentlessly, so exhaustively at the. expense of often times our own. self-esteem, our own self-worth? Um, that's sort of the deeper. every [laughter] girl is going to be. like, "Yes, yes, and um, no, it's really.

relatable and it's. >> scary and it's uncomfortable and it's. um, I've had versions of this in my life. and I know you when you were 18, >> your first relationship was with a man. in his mid-30s.". >> Yeah. >> How did your personal experience inspire. the book? >> I want to hear about yours as I'm I'm. really curious, but um. >> you know, I think I I I don't know how. to not write from a deeply personal. place. I was really excited to write. fiction. I thought, "Oh my god, like. this is" and I completely want to keep.

writing fiction. That's my my really. biggest takeaway from writing half his. age. But I also can't help but write. from that place because that's the thing. like I mentioned earlier sort of the. anger the if there are those deep deep. painful feelings. Writing is my way to. closure for those feelings is my way to. closure for past experiences. Um and I. think my way for connection with other. people who were kind of seeking a. similar closure in some way. But I. didn't even realize how angry I still. was about that. I thought I was I. thought it was done. I thought it was.

good. I thought I didn't really consider. that I didn't I didn't think of him. ever. this person I was in a. relationship with at all. Like he wasn't. on my mind, right? And then I'm writing. this book and it was only several drafts. in where I I looked back and I said, "Why? Why this? Why now?" And it was, "Oh, because I have so much anger left. about this thing. Because there's so. much left to process about this thing. because I have to find closure on this. stage of of my life through this.". Interesting. >> Yeah. Well, it's it's so hard because. when you're that young,

it feels like you're just in it. Like. there is kind of no processing. >> Sure. >> And then you get out of it and you kind. of need to really really remove yourself. to a certain degree to actually have any. wherewithal to look back and unbiasedly. look at yourself and be like, what. happened there? And you can actually. look at your younger self as like your. older sister of your younger self, if. that makes sense. >> It totally does. I'm curious. So, you. feel like there did you feel like there. were like for me I feel like there were. micro moments of processing or micro.

moments of like something's not adding. up not quite right. Did you feel that? >> Yes. And I I I think I like still. haven't fully processed it like I think. through my show or whatever I'll like. tell stories and even sometimes I think. I romanticize it and so it's still like. a little like. >> say more. What do you What are the ways. that you romanticize? >> I think that when I was So I was 18 and. he was like 33. >> Yeah. >> I was 19. He was 33 or 34. Okay. >> Um, weird. That's weird. That's weird. >> Can you imagine now being with how.

>> creepy it's Imagine me being with a. 19-year-old? Like, >> no. That's a great way to put it. When. they have when they are older than you, it doesn't matter what their career, there is a power imbalance. And so, there is something enticing about it. There's something mature about it. there's something kind of elusive about. it that you're like this is going to. make me it's all to like it kind of. helps you fuel your ego at such a weird. susceptible time to like I don't know.

who I am and so you kind of like migrate. into their world and you feel like oh my. gosh they're helping me find my identity. when really then when you have the. actual capacity when you hit that age to. look back and be like oh my god in your. 30s I shouldn't even be talking to an. 18-year-old um. >> I think it it it's confusing because you. want to believe that you're like smart. and you have mature course which they. tell you which we're gonna get to. Um.

yeah, it's complicated. It's very. complicated. So I I I have a lot of. empathy for women that are listening and. we're going to get into this. conversation that I acknowledge there's. probably potentially some still. romantization that you can be. romanticization that you can be doing to. that previous relationship if you had an. older person in your life. But also, let's start to unpack the other side to. it. >> Yeah. I'm my mind just went to also like. those moments where I would piece. together that something was wrong. But. and I'm so I feel shame in saying this,

but I remember that, you know, there was. this point when he would introduce me to. his friends and he would take me to kind. of barbecues and I would meet the. friends and their wives and the friends. would be the guy friends would be, you. know, hey, like to all smiles, whatever. And the wives would be like, mhm, hi, nice to meet you. What's your name? Okay, Janette. Yeah, great. And I. thought like, are they being mean to me? And now I see, oh no, they [ __ ] hated. this guy's guts because they know [ __ ]. They knew [ __ ] then that I didn't know. >> and they're looking at this man like. >> going, what a [ __ ] loser. >> Another younger one here. Exactly.

>> How young is she this time? And it's. like and you took it personally because. you didn't even [ __ ] know the. conversation at hand was like you didn't. even know what it was. You didn't even. know what they were thinking. >> Exactly. And I'm just saying, "Oh my. god, they were being protective. They. were being helpful. They knew so much. more than I knew. If only I had sat and. talked with one of them instead of. splitting a vegan hot dog with I almost. said his name. >> Can I ask like how did you guys meet? You met through. >> through work. There's nowhere to meet. anybody else. All I did was work at. work. Yeah. >> So you are a young actor at the time.

Were you 17 when you met him? 16? >> I I think I was 18 by the time you. started working on the show. I think I'm. not sure about that. It's possible I was. younger, but I was at least I was most. likely 18. And how did this relationship. start? Um, a lot of like hanging out on. set, a lot of hanging around the writer. We would hang out in the writer room. after work. He would show me movies that. he thought I would like. Like Dazed and. Confused, which I did not like, but I. pretended to like. He would play me.

music that he liked, which I did not. like, but I pretended to like. It's also. like, why do they all have terrible. taste? They have such bad taste. >> Or or Janette, pause. Maybe it's because. they're 30 [ __ ] whatever and you're. 18. So there's no way you're going to. have the same taste. Maybe when you get. to that age, you actually would like. that movie or that song, but how are you. at 17, 18? You're like, "Actually, [ __ ] that [ __ ]. [ __ ] that shit." [laughter] But you know. what [gasps] I mean? Half the time. you're like, they're showing you [ __ ].

You're like, "Who?". >> Yes. >> And everyone else in the room that's. that age is probably knows what that is. because they're of the same decade. >> Yes. >> Yes. Um, exactly. >> Okay. So, he's you guys start hanging. out. >> Um, and then how does it like progress. to a relationship? >> Um, he comes over. I don't the feelings. part of it, like us saying our feelings. I don't remember the sort of nature of. that, but I remember him coming over. really drunk one night to my apartment. At this point, I've moved out of my.

mom's place. I'm very new. Like, also. red flags all over. I've been living. away from my mom for maybe two months, and I'm like, great. Okay, a. relationship. That'll be great. Um, and. he comes over and he has beer stands on. his shirt and he's bumbling around and I. at this point in my life I've never had. a sip of alcohol. So I don't understand. how drunk he like. Now I go, okay, he. was drunk off his ass. But I didn't know. did you drink one drink and that's how. drunk you are? How drunk is one drink? How drunk is 10 drinks? I had no frame. of reference. So he just comes over. really drunk and we like make out. It's.

a lot of dry humping. And it's that for. months. And I tell him, you know, at. that point, I was still very I was I was. no longer going to church, but I was. still kind of tied to my Mormon roots. and didn't want sex before marriage and. didn't feel ready for that. And I. certainly was not uh in terms of. maturity. And so he he and I just made. out a lot and and kind of, you know, dry. hemp a lot. Very high school. What do. you remember about how you felt about.

the age gap? >> Thinking that I was mature, thinking. that I was so smart that this could. happen. And also, I hadn't really felt a. deep connection with anybody my age at. that point yet. I had felt one. connection with a friend who a female. friend who who I still love to this day, but she was, you know, 7 years older. than me. So, not not as not nearly the. age gap that it was between he and I, but um I remember thinking like, "Oh, yeah. There's just something about me. that's a little different. Like, I'm. special." Like that's what it felt like. for me. I'm special. I can connect with.

older people. Younger people aren't on. my wavelength. Like please. And how did. he talk about it and justify it like. that? Like that. Like [ __ ] that. It. was, you know, you're so mature. I can't. talk to anyone this way. I can't believe. how smart you are. Like, are you kidding. me? It's I was such an idiot. I'm so. embarrassed. Also, how humiliating that. he thought that was smart or or even. used it as being smart as a manipulation. tactic because how stupid of him. >> Yeah. Um, in the book the teacher manipulates.

his student by saying things like, "You're so mature for your age." Um, which I am so happy that now in the. conversation online and socially, like I. do believe everyone knows that is a red. flag. Maybe again when you're in it, it. may not feel like a red flag, but I. think socially that concept has been. spread around enough where people are. like, "Got it." If a man is calling a. woman [ __ ] mature for her age, >> please pause for 5 seconds and someone.

protect that young woman. >> Yes. Um. >> I think and people are a lot savvier. than at that point. A lot a lot more. confident, >> which you hope more mature. Now it's. sounding like I'm doing the. >> Oh my god. No, but I think it's also. because of this kind of stuff, right? People are finally feeling able that can. talk. Women actually have a place where. we can talk about this and we're not. being silenced and we're not being made. to feel like we're making things up in. our head and you're being dramatic. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Totally. Totally. >> What other similarities. did your relationship with this older. man kind of share with the one that you.

write about in the novel? >> Ooh. What similarities? I think. I think there's this element that both. Mr. Corgi gives to the protagonist Waldo. and that the person I was in a. relationship gave to me which is this. the that feeling of specialness that. feeling of that it was that it was. ultimately my choice that it was. ultimately up to me that ultimately I. was the one in charge and I think if you. feel really powerless you'll take that. bait you know you'll take that and.

you'll go okay I'm I really want that. feeling of power even though my gut kind. of knows this isn't that I'll take what. you're saying and I'll try to run with. it and I'll try to make it into some. semblance of power. If you're that. desperate for it, you will take the. bait. And I think I did and I think. Waldo does as well. >> Yeah. >> You just obviously referenced that you. were a virgin when you met him and you. were wanting to wait um for marriage. >> How did that impact the way that sex. >> Oh my god. >> played a role in this relationship.

>> Okay, this begs for a story. Um he Okay, so we. had a plan. He had a girlfriend. Did I. say this? No, I did not. He had a. girlfriend. Okay. >> Um felt a lot of um guilt and shame. about that for a long time. >> He had a girlfriend while you were. seeing him. >> While I was seeing him. Yes. While while. the dry hump make out sessions were. happening. How. >> was that he lived with? >> How that he lived with? >> That he lived with. >> So where were you guys hanging out? >> My apartment. >> And how did he explain the girlfriend to. you? >> Uh that you know he's in a relationship.

and he Oh man, I can't believe Okay. Yeah, it it was it was tricky because it. was initially positioned to me as sort. of like he's not he's I'm not going to. leave her. I'm not going to leave her, but I want this, which is I mean, come. on, right? I'm not going to leave, but I. want to pursue this with you. So, it's. like, don't get your hopes up. I can. have my cake and eat it, too, but you. you can't. You're going to not have any. cake, but I get to have my cake and eat. it, too. And um this went on for I think. we started after like the physical.

relationship began in in maybe August. And by October, November, I was starting. to feel like I can't do this anymore. Like it's too difficult to want. something this bad to feel this at the. disposal of someone else's kind of whims. and availabilities and it's these. halfhour pockets here and there and like. I just have to be at his every beck and. call and then when he calls and I'll go. whatever and it was just exhausting. It. was exhausting and I couldn't do it. anymore. And then finally once I say. that suddenly it's I'm going to leave my. girlfriend. I need to be with you. I'm.

going to leave my girlfriend. What great. messaging to send to an 18-year-old. It's like the whole the whole process. was just so twisted. Um, and so I think, okay, is he going to leave his. girlfriend? I hope he's going to leave. his girlfriend. I want to be with him. Whatever. His plan is that it's he's. going to go home for Christmas break, which he actually does go home, but he's. going to say that the trip is longer. than it is. And he's actually going to. be staying at his friend's place, and. I'm going to go stay with him at his. friend's place. We're going to have a. couple nights to oursel, which I didn't. realize then. And of course, I realized. now was like the trial period, seeing,

okay, does this actually work? Can I do. I actually have enough in common with an. 18-year-old to be with this person? Is. this what is this going to look like? Um, and so we spent those few days. together. It went quote unquote well, and he was going to stay firm on on. leaving his girlfriend. Around this. time, my mom had been hospitalized for. having she had had a seizure. She was. hospitalized, and then she got out of. the hospital and was going to come stay. with me at my apartment. but he was. going to come stay with me at my. apartment because he was breaking up. with his [ __ ] girlfriend. So, I can't.

have my dying mother and my boyfriend. she doesn't know about and would never. approve of at my apartment at the same. time, right? We have a dilemma on our. hands. So, I'm going, okay, what do I. how do I like treat my dead mother with. some my dying mother with some kind of. respect and can I how do I keep the. place for her and how do I do this. thing? And he's saying, I shouldn't have. broken up with her. It was the worst. mistake of my life. This is see this is. what I'm talking about. like you can't. he's he uses the you can't meet my needs. thing a lot and so I go okay I'll get us. a hotel room I'll leave the apartment.

I'll tell my mom I'm hanging out with my. friend which I did and she was like very. suspicious very it didn't matter she was. dying she still had a mother's instinct. she was still like something's not right. about this who's which friend who how. long um so I rent us a room at the. [laughter]. Sherin Universal. >> right near Universal Studios that was. like my idea of like a good hotel I also. love that we're um we're not even. acknowledging that why is the 30. whatever year old not getting the hotel. room. Why does the 30 or whatever does. he not have an apartment of his own? Did. he He shared it with the girlfriend, but. like why didn't he get the hotel?

>> Thank you. Well, you know, >> let the 18-year-old do it. >> Let the 18-year-old do it. Also, I was. like, "Oh, well, maybe we can go on like. Hog the Hogwarts ride it." [laughter]. >> He's like, "What's Hogwarts?" You're. like, "Oh, right. [ __ ] You don't know what I like and I. don't know what you like. Pretend." Oh. my god. Okay, so you're at the Sherin. He's completely drunk again doing the. bumbling around thing that I didn't know. what that was indication of. And we go. into the hotel room and he asks me for a. [ __ ] which I don't I don't know what. that is because I was raised Mormon and.

because I was homeschooled and I didn't. I didn't have I didn't [ __ ] know. He. explains to me what it is and I'm like, "That sounds kind of weird. I'm nervous. to do this." He's like, "I'll guide you. through it. I'll guide you through it.". Whatever. He does. And then he he's. like, "I'm going to come." And then it's. squirts in my mouth and I'm like, "What. was that? What was that? Something came. out." I thought, "Did he pee in my. mouth? What the [ __ ] just happened?" I. did not know what come was. He explains. and then that was sort of that was my. entry entry point into you know real a. real form of sexual activity. And it.

was, you know, now it's funny, but at the. time it was really uncomfortable and I. didn't I was it was difficult to kind of. regroup and figure out what what was. that exactly and and this. moment of. you know this [ __ ] like was it not. all under the guise of I just left my. girlfriend so like now I'm with you and. was there any form of like pressure of. like if I left this former or person,

what are you going to provide for me? >> 100%. There were phrases like, you know, similar to, I have to know that my needs. are going to be met. Like, this is. something that I'm I'm a blanky old man, mid-30s man, and this is something that. I'm used to, and this is something I. have to know. I I'm I'm respectful of. your it was it was very I'm respectful. of of your boundary that you can't have. sex before marriage, but I also have. needs of my own. And I think that's. something interesting to also explore. because it's not going to be this. mustache twirly villain kind of way of. saying like, "Get on your knees, bitch.". like nobody's saying that, but there are.

there is a nuanced power dynamic at play. and things that can be said in discreet. ways that are, you know, now I would. know to read between the lines. Now I. would know how to have that kind of. conversation with somebody at 18. I did. not. I didn't. I didn't. >> And I don't think most 18-year-olds know. what to do because again, go back to the. beginning of this relationship. It. starts with you're feeling special. Yes. And so when you're feeling so special, but you are the underdog, there's going. to be moments where when every idiot is. like, "Well, why didn't you just not do. it?" It's like there's so much. psychological warfare that you're going.

through in your head trying to. understand like how do I keep this thing. going cuz it's making me feel so special. and it's like giving you your sense of. identity. >> And then yes, there's a moment where. you're like, "But they're the older. ones. Like this feels right. If they're. telling me this is going to be okay and. normal, like I should trust this person, right? you're trusting of this person. and then it's like to what extent are. you like wait I'm fully getting taken. advantage of here like I'm 18 this is. the person with their right mind and. their fully formed frontal lobe has. happened yours hasn't yet there's a.

responsibility that they completely. neglect in those situations. >> 100% did you have any similar. experiences to that or was it were you. had you what was your age gap. relationship like had you had other. relationships before. >> I had had other relationships but they. were all very similar in age. >> and I think with sex for me I felt like. there was a performative element that I. felt like. um it was always told to me and I kind. of forget how he would like word it. because like you said it's not like. [ __ ] suck my dick [ __ ] it's very.

discreet it's very discreet but I always. knew there were other women if I wasn't. there that could like take my place. >> and so in that moment where you're not. feeling like I don't really want to. >> I don't really want to do this tonight. or I'm tired I'm whatever in the back of. your head, you're like, "Well, if you. don't, like, guess what? Guess what he's. going to be able to do, and you're going. to lose your spot." And so, there's like. >> a pressure you put on yourself, but it's. not you put it fully on yourself. It's.

because of the things they're telling. you, but somehow. >> they are not in the wrong, and you're. you feel. >> horrible. You feel like, well, I should. do this, right? Like, why don't I want. to do this? And if I don't, then this is. going to happen. So, and it kind of all. becomes a game within yourself and. they're not even a factor somehow. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I'm also I'm also curious if you. had this thing where I feel like sex or. you know anything sort of physical. intimac physical intimacy can be.

confused as it's. it's almost like more of a turn on if. they're not available. Like it's. uncomfortable to say that, right? But. there's some element where it's like I. would I would things would happen in my. body where I would feel the relationship. is threatened or I would feel he was. pulling the rug out from under me. Okay, he's not as interested. Oh, he's going. to go to one of his other options or. he's going to go back to his other. girlfriend. There's all these other. factors that if I would feel one of. those at play, you know, sex just yeah, I'd really.

crave sex. I'd really want sex. It was. sex for me was a means of finding. commitment. Was a means a misguided. means of assuming I'd found commitment. and a misguided means of assuming I'd. found attachment. A misguided means of. assuming I'd found safety. But the. second that the two of us come, it's. gone. It's [ __ ] gone. Dude, that's so bleak. And it's so real. No, it's so real. cuz I I bet so many. women are listening to this and it's. like saying it out loud is maybe.

rare to hear that statement that you. just said cuz I don't think a lot of. women have. the confidence maybe to admit it. >> and I really respect you for saying. that. Thanks. Because I think a lot of. women are going to watch this and be. like, "Yeah, I have had the same thing. where you're like in the moment you're. just like, I literally don't know what. else to do other than physically give. myself to this person." And you can feel. it in that moment you're like, "Yes,

yes, yes." And you're right, the minute. it's over, >> you have never felt dirtier. You have. never felt more worthless. >> And it was like a high to go. If. anything, you go farther down low. because you're like, "How did I think. that this was going to solve anything?". >> They're on their phone immediately. after. They leave the room immediately. after. And you're literally like, "I did. the most intimate thing I could give you. and I'm still nothing.". >> Yes. >> Yeah.

It's. exhausting because what you eventually. will like come to realize as all of us. will have our moment in life where. you're like that is not how it that is. not what sex should be. Sex should not. equate to power. But when you are in a. power imbalance. >> of course as a woman you're thinking. this is something I have that I can give. to the man. Right. >> Yeah. I understand too that this is a. process that so many women have to. experience on their own and that like. here if there if there's somebody 21.

watching that it's it's going to be hard. to relate to maybe the things you or I. are saying or they're they're just in a. different position. And I I wish so. badly that I could just have that not. happen for women. Like I love women so. much. I think they're so. much cooler than men. [laughter] Like. no, you're right. It is like I guess as. I sit here I'm trying to think of that. like 18-year-old version of you or. myself. >> Yeah. >> And. >> yeah, what could you say? What could you. do? What could you do? >> Cuz the way we're speaking right now may.

be too. >> reflective and and to meet yourself. where you're at, you have to think about. >> all the insecurities and all the. instability and it would require such. like a. >> I don't know like or is it you have to. go through it? cuz I was thinking for. you it's like. >> this is a very common thing for women. and then I feel like for you and and. correct me if I'm wrong but you had such. um. >> you had already kind of learned this. game a little bit from your mother where.

if you give her what she wants and what. she needs then you are going to avoid. rejection and abandonment. >> the trigger words. Yes. So then this is kind of a similar thing. where it's like if you give him what he. wants sexually, >> you're going to avoid that rejection, but it's fleeting. >> Mhm. >> So then how can you talk to me about how. the sex continued to play a part of this.

dynamic for you with this relationship? Because like we're saying, you do it and. then it's kind of like, huh? So h how. much did you compromise your self-esteem. and your self-worth. in that relationship? And where did sex. fall into that? >> So I eventually did have sex with him. I. I um disregarded my self-imposed rule of. no sex before marriage and that was. definitely the right decision for me. I'm so glad that I did that. Um but.

having sex with him was there was this. the only way I can describe it is that. there was an addictive component where. it was that's the thing that I'm. chasing. That's the thing that I'm my. nervous system is sort of hijacked in. waiting for and then when it happens. when it happens afterward there's the. crash and then it just kind of ramps up. again in anticipation for the next. sexual encounter. And then once that. tapered off was really when the. relationship tapered off. And I felt. that with several relationships I was in. where it was really they were really. rooted in in sex and sexual connection.

And I think the sexual connection was. actually a distraction from anything. else because I thought, well, we're. having good sex or we're having intense. sex or whatever, passionate sex, whatever it was that I was confusing as. a legitimate connection. But then sex. always, I mean, it's going to taper off. It's going to fade. It's not going to. have that charge that initially does. And then when that would happen, I'd go, "Oh, I don't really know if I like what I'm. left with here. I don't I don't want to. be doing this anymore.". >> How did it ultimately end the. relationship? Uh my mom was dying and I.

like like weeks away from dying and I I. felt this kind of this mode of almost. invincibility of okay I like it all has. to go. I don't I don't [ __ ] care. about like okay what means anything? My. mom's dying. I don't care about. anything. Um and then we did get to back. together briefly after my mom died and. then that ended um sort of quickly. So. it was it was one of those we were over. but we kind of tried it again for a. second. um having other partners and you. kind of mentioned this pattern. Yeah. >> Um of the emphasis on sex to avoid.

the other things going on. Are there any. other patterns that you can kind of look. back on in romantic relationships that. you started to see in partners that you. were with? Oh yeah. All unavailable. [laughter]. All completely unavailable. Whether they. had a girlfriend or a mental disorder or. whatever, you know, there was something. that was keeping Yeah. they were not. available. And I think there was. something in me that really relentlessly. wanted to chase that and felt like, oh, if I can only make this unavailable man.

who is showing me by every measure of. availability that he is not available, if only I could make him available, like. then I would then I would matter. Then I. would have some sense of selfworth. The. more difficult give me a challenge. Like. I'm always up for a challenge. That's. what I wanted. >> And. because that's what you did your whole. life with your mother. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> You're not available. you're not. emotionally there for me at all, but. like hopefully hopefully you'll notice. me if I tap dance hard enough and I sing. loud enough then like mom was that good.

and she's like huh and it's almost like. again that's the horrible part of a. young woman where then sex becomes. another thing you can. >> throw at the problem. I hate to say it. like that but like and it is so sacred. and when you can learn to be like no I. don't need to use this to get closer to. someone. Yes, >> it's so powerful. But maybe it is like. we're saying you kind of have to go. through it as a woman. And some have to. go through it in a much more heightened. and intense capacity than others.

sometimes get away with like one bad. relationship and and they're like, "Okay, never again. They love that for. you. Love them. Love them.". >> You know, it's interesting because I I. I'm thinking of um in Half Age, I I. wanted to write it. It's it's told. through this girl Waldo's point of view. the entire book. And it's not we don't. have her perspective when she's 30. looking back on it and going ah here's h. here's what happened then which I think. can can be kind of a hallmark of of. books that cover this subject matter is. that there's this territory where you. get to see the person with their wiser.

self looking back in in in hindsight and. I think as you and I were kind of. realizing oh I think it's kind of. something you have to go through I think. that was I literally only piecing it. together right now but I think that was. part of the motivation cuz I kept. thinking oh should I have the section. later on where she's older and she's. piecing it together for real and what it. actually meant. But it felt so important. to not have that. It felt like I had I I. literally could not that was not an. option for me. I had to stay in her. experience. It felt so so so important. And I think it's because it's going to. fall on deaf ears. It like I don't want.

to I don't want to be here sitting here. preaching or teaching or trying to like. that's not I I don't have the answers. It's just the situation laid out very. plainly and take from it what you will. Um no, it's [ __ ] right. It's really. frustrating because you're as a woman. who has gone through a lot in. relationships and as have you. I I. agree. We're kind of sitting here being. like what's the advice? What's the. takeaway? And I just feel like.

especially in the world that we live in. today, like. yes, still women are not considered. equal to men in this country. That is a. fact. And so it's like. the only way to like garner strength and. to gain strength and to become more of. yourself is unfortunately as a woman to. go through like extreme adversity. >> instead of just like a lot of times. being a man is just like be the man, be. the man. It's like are you woman enough? Is constant like is she woman enough? Is.

she feminine enough? And we're. constantly battling as women like are we. enough? Are we this? Are we that? And. sometimes you have to go through all of. that hell. >> to come out on the other side and be. like, "All right, >> I am not going to take [ __ ] and I'm. going to have confidence and I'm going. to do this and that." But like, should. we have to do that? >> No. But is it the world that we live in? >> Unfortunately, >> a little bit of a pivot here. I I was. thinking about, you know, I think a lot. of people who understandably and. unfortunately are constantly in survival.

mode for a good portion of their life. can feel. >> restless in secure dynamics. >> Have you ever found yourself. >> feeling bored in healthy relationships? Only occasionally. And I try to sit with I really do try to. kind of sit with that boredom when I. feel it cropping up and recognize what a. what a thing it is to be grateful for. You know that it's not chaos that there. is something so sturdy. Um in my good.

moments I'm able to do that. And in my. not good moments I'm like you know I got. to do something. I got to whatever but. take a trip. Whatever it leads to is. going to be something positive versus. something self-destructive which it had. been for so long. But yeah, I've been in. a relationship now for um nine nine. year. We were friends. We've been. friends for 11 years. We've been. together for 9 years and it's so. healthy. And um yeah, every every year. it truly gets better. But but there are. definitely pockets where I you know I my. nervous system will kind of want to.

latch on to like where but where's the. chaos? Where's and I just have to sit. with that and and you know journal. through it whatever whatever tool works. But um but it's it's the the the element. of my life that I'm by far the most. grateful for. I think I had this. conversation recently with another guest. about, you know, when you have abusive. parents. Um, sometimes it can complicate. your feelings about becoming a parent. one day yourself, right? It can either. scare you or excite you. And.

how has your childhood influenced your. idea of motherhood? [laughter]. >> Um, I don't want kids if that's what. you're asking. Do you want kids? >> I do. I think when I was if I think if. you asked me in my. >> 20s, I really didn't think I did. >> That's interesting cuz most people know. >> most people know early on and they stick. with that. Okay. Okay. So, >> I didn't think I wanted to get married. and I didn't think I wanted to have. kids. Now, I got married and I I want. kids. >> You want kids? Okay. >> But it it really changed for me and I.

think it was just like a lot of selfwork. that I had to do on myself. Not saying. that like you have to do self work to. want to have kids. It just for me. >> in the place I was in my life, I. couldn't even fathom it. And then. something changed and I think that's. okay that I was just like you know what. I actually think I do. And so I don't. know when and timeline but like for. right now I'm like this is something I. definitely know I want and I wasn't sure. of. >> Okay. So talk to me about. >> I'm so happy for you. That's really. exciting. What an exciting trajectory. >> and Okay. So talk to me about how you. know you don't want kids. >> Well I will say I I I think I know I.

know I don't want kids at this point in. my life. I'm also open to wanting kids. at some point. So, actually a couple. year a couple months ago in September, I. went through the egg freezing process. >> Um, and because I don't know if I'm. going to change my mind. We've discussed. it and neither of us really want. >> kids, but we are also open to changing. our minds and being in that process. together. And so, I didn't want to. change my mind 10 years from now and. it'd be too late. So, I wanted to. >> How did you decide like what what were. those conversations like to freeze your.

eggs? Because I know there's a lot of. women that are always like should I. should I not like if you don't mind. sharing just kind of the process. No, I. was so the fir the first time I I looked. into it, I went to a doctor in Beverly. Hills, which was I mean already a red. flag, but I sat down with her and she's. like, "Yeah, the the best time to do. this was two years ago, but like. otherwise right now she starts like. drawing this graph, which always. stresses me out when somebody starts. drawing a do like when a doctor starts. draw like you should have been an artist. if you want to be drawing. What are you. doing? Please stop reading. [laughter]. Give me the medication. What is it?". She's like drawing things. She's like. drawing these spears going up my vagina.

and like telling me how she's going to. pull out the whatever. And I'm like this. is terrible. This seems awful. I don't. want to do this. No, thank you. And then. about a year and a half later, which was. this this past summer, I started. thinking about it again. I I went to a. different um doctor and they seemed much. more comforting. I felt much safer in. that environment. And I thought, okay, you know what? I'm going to I'm going to. go for it. I thought it was going to be. terrible. I was warned that it can be. really really emotional having these big. mood swings. And it for for me it was. actually really really not that. It was. really straightforward and simple. And.

um I was lucky that a nurse could come. to my house every night. I think it. would have been a lot more stressful if. I'd had to like formulate the things. myself and put the powder in with the. liquid and inject it like that seems. like a nightmare. Um, but having. somebody kind of come and administer. everything was was really really helpful. and the process was very simple and. seemed effective. How would you describe. obviously we've gone through so much of. your life in your childhood into you. know relationships and now you being. able to write a novel about one of those. young formative relationships. Now.

you're in this 9-year relationship. Um, how would you describe this time in your. life? Certain most definitely the most. grateful I've ever been. Like by far. Um, the most connected I've been. and. the most the most authentic I've been. able to be. And there's still so much, you know, road to cover. And so, so.

I hope I stay on this path. I hope I. don't switch to a different path. >> Um, but something I read that you had. talked about is you really struggled uh. for a while to celebrate your success. and to own any of your success, which is. so relatable, right? It's like if I felt. like it would make me rude, a a [ __ ]. diva, like whatever, to just be like, "Yeah, no, this is this is where I. belong. I've earned this. This is. something that I worked really hard for. I deserve this." It felt like I had to. Oh my god. I get this thing where it.

still I hate when it happens sometimes. on Zooms, but I call it my like G. willilickers persona where it'll. >> what. >> it comes out in so long. >> G Willickers. >> Yeah, you shouldn't. It's It's a good. thing you haven't since Leave it to. Bieber episodes. But um it really is. this part of my personality that comes. out if I'm like taken off guard in a. Zoom meeting. If somebody I'm thinking. of one maybe like six months ago where. somebody said like, "How do you feel. Janette?" And I just wasn't expecting at. the end of it was like the closer of the. Zoom. we'd all heard whatever kind of. mediocre news and it's a Zoom that. should have been an email that should. have been a whatever text. So, we're.

going through the motions and they're. like, "How how did you feel?" And I'm. just like, "I'm I'm just so h I'm just. so happy to be here with all of you. amazing people. I'm just so grateful.". Like, I completely reverted to this. [ __ ] It's the Mormon homeschool. seven-year-old. Just I'm just happy to. be here. I'm just grateful. No, no. Like, >> right. And you're like, >> literally, and then you we played. afterward and I'm going I wish I would. have just been like it's kind of. mediocre news, but we'll all be fine. Like, we're smart people. We'll figure. this [ __ ] out. It's kind of [ __ ]. Don't really want to be doing this as a. Zoom. I like half of you. Half of you I. hate you. Bye. Then click off. Half of.

you wish I hadn't agreed to work with. you. Bye. [gasps]. >> Dude, you literally like and thank you. I'm grateful. Then you end the Zoom and. you're literally like, >> "Yes, fuck." [laughter]. >> Yes. And I think that creates that thing. where it's like this discordance inside. when it's why did and then I'm then what. happened is I'm beating myself up after. the fact. Of course, I'm not I don't. wish that I'd said I hate happy you, but. I do wish that I'd said something in a. little bit more authentic. >> Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm just going to happen. to be here is not authentic. It's not. true. I earned my seat at the table. >> But it's like you're we're so.

conditioned to be that way because the. minute if I I have said this so many. times. If I'm in a meeting with my. husband and he's like yeah that's not. good enough. I want to be like yeah. that's not good enough. Instead I'm like. >> um we can progress in a way that and I'm. like why can't I just say it like that? Cuz they'll be like she's a [ __ ]. [ __ ] And I'm like and so now I sat with. Shondaanda Rimes and she was like be the. [ __ ] be the [ __ ] And I was like, I'm. taking that, you know, that's I'm taking. that into 2026. >> Yes. >> And and half the time it's like, be the. [ __ ] Oh, wait. No, just like say what.

you're feeling. >> Yes. >> And most of the time that means you're. not being a [ __ ] Yes. >> You're just being honest. Totally. And. then it's on people to receive that. information. If they take you being a. [ __ ] from that, then that's on them. >> 100%. >> Oh my god. Um, okay. We're almost done. >> Okay. >> Are you having fun? >> I am. I forgot that we were filming for. a second. I'm like, "Okay, we're back.". Um, this has been really nice. I. [laughter] forgot, too. >> I know. We're like, >> we're like sitting here just talking. about like life's. >> like we're like theorizing about life as.

women and we're like, "Oh, wait. Yes. Okay, we're still recording a podcast.". [laughter] Um, so overall, what do you think you're most proud of. in your life and your career at this. point? >> In my life and career? Um, life. I think. that easily goes to overcoming an eating. disorder. I think that was the hardest. thing I can imagine doing and I've I've. done it and I'm I think it's so. important to say they always say to say. you know you're always in recovery and. it's always it's I think that's really. negative. I think that's really. unhelpful. I think saying hey look I.

haven't counted a calorie tracked. anything that I've eaten binged purged. restricted nothing in years is a is a. message worth sharing and something that. I think a lot of people I hope can. benefit from and something that I know. my past self could have benefited from. Um, and then I'm proud I'm I'd say I'm. proudest of this book in terms of in. terms of career. I I love this book. I I. I put every part of myself into it. Blood, sweat, tears, my heart and soul. is in it and I I hope and think that. really comes through. So, can you talk.

to me more also about the writing. process of Half his age? Like, where did. you begin and what was the vision when. you first started writing to then what. it netted out to actually be? >> Yeah. Weirdly, I had the the first idea. for this book. It's so strange to me. now. Um, when I was 24, I was taking a. solo trip to Japan and I was on a. Shinkansen, a bullet train. And at this. point, I had I had quit acting like a. year prior and I had just been writing. every day, getting nowhere, writing. plays and short films and screenplays.

and whatever. Um, I had not written any. books and I knew I I thought, "Oh, it's. going to be a student teacher. relationship, and it has to be a book. That has to be the format that it comes. in." Um, and it was fiction. >> Yeah. Yeah. Which hadn't done had I. literally hadn't written written any. book, nothing like didn't even consider. I didn't hadn't considered that. And yet. I knew in that moment and I remember. doing a bit of journaling about it and. feeling like okay when the time is right. this thing's going to come through and I. just have to follow it. And then you.

know what, however many years, seven. years later, it kind of came through in. a very palpable way. I was writing. something else and I couldn't. It's like. this demanded to be written and I. thought, okay, I'll take a couple days. off that other thing and then this will. wear itself out and then I just round up. wound up writing writing it very um. quickly the first draft very quickly. When you go from writing a memoir to. fiction, obviously that's like a. complete 180, but obviously you like. infused themes into the book about your. life that or like inspired by your life,

right? Um, how were you able to keep a. distance with the characters but also. still infuse inspiration from your own. life? >> That's such a good question. I feel like. it's really a beautiful aspect of. writing fiction is that you can kind of. get away with a lot where it's I can say. point of view that maybe I'd be too. scared to own in myself. Like this. character Waldo is bolder than I am in. certain ways. She's who I wish I could. have been at 18 in so many ways. And so.

I can say those things that I I can kind. of retroactively go, "Oh, I I wish I. could have said that." And then I can. say it this time around. I can do it. this time around. She's she's bolder and. braver than I was, and I I respect her. character for it. And I think I've. learned from the writing of her how to. kind of incorporate that more in my own. life. >> This is still a personal. piece of work. >> It can't not be for me. It can't not be. Is there any part of you that's nervous. or is it all release excitement? Like.

what are you feeling? >> I feel I feel excitement. Am I nervous? [sighs and gasps]. No, I feel it really does feel like I'm. just really excited for this has been. it's been in myself and my sort of orbit. for so long and it's something I've. worked on. I've been working on for two. years while working on other things, but. it's been it's been a long process and a. and a lot of just kind of me in the. vacuum and the bubble of of the writing. dome, right? And now is the is the. portion where I get to kind of see that. see those effects and see it connect. with people and that's what makes it all.

feel worthwhile. Do you feel like the. work that you have done in therapy. allowed yourself to be ready to write. this? Because I know you mentioned like. it was kind of like in you weirdly where. you're like I wasn't planning it and. then I it kept coming up for me. Like do. you think that's because of the therapy. work that you had done or was it still. just this unfinished business? >> That's so interesting. I do think that. for me. therapy and and selfwork really kind of.

ties into career and achieve all of. that. Like it kind of feels like it has. to start with something that I'm working. on myself. I think I'm lucky in that I. don't know if that I think some people. can achieve great things and be super. successful and like deeply unhealthy and. deeply in their trauma and deeply. >> a disaster. >> Yes. >> You know, but for me it really seems. like it's one foot in front of the other. and it has to the first foot has to. really be. >> in in that therapy chair and then I. think everything else kind of trickles. out after that. >> Okay, last question. Okay.

>> Um you said. >> Oh, I just felt sad. >> I know. Me too. No, we'll keep talking. after this. Don't worry. Okay. Um, you. said in an interview that the more. uncomfortable something is to write, the. more important it is to write. What. types of conversations do you hope your. new book will start? I hope it sparks. conversation conversations around desire. and power. Those are the two areas where. I think there's so much to discuss. We've I think talked some of it through. today, but I think it's just endless.

um there are endless [clears throat]. conversations to be had around those. areas and. um. and also loneliness. I think I think. there's a lot that's said about. loneliness and I think right now despite. being so plugged in as a culture so. constantly, I think there's a real. epidemic of loneliness and I think um I. think that's explored in the book too. I'm so happy for you. Like it's so. obvious that writing has you said I mean. from a young age like you wanted to be a.

writer but now to see you. >> walking the walk and living it and and. now coming out with your second book. like it's so. >> incredible to see you doing something. you love so much that's also cathartic. and is helping you but also helping so. many other people. um from you know your. memoir I I agree it's like there are so. many people I sit across from that I go. to dinners with that I know personally. that are in my family that have. struggled so much with the parent child. dynamic and again that's something that.

I don't think has been explored as much. it is it is being recently because of. shame right like how dare you talk ill. of family for the first you know just. that at the surface but then especially. your mother um that's a really. complicated. dynamic that you took on and you did it. so well that I think allowed other. people to probably be like, "Okay, you. know what? I can finally now start to. also look at look inward and and start. to heal myself from that pain that I've.

experienced.". >> Um, and now this new book, I think. there's something so. prevalent and important and just honest. about the themes that you've brought up. that I think we hopefully will continue. to explore. Again, I think we were both. like in a good way like we don't know. the answer. Yeah. And a lot of times. that means that then this is just the. beginning of the conversation. >> Yes. >> We don't know the answer. Why has this. not been a bigger conversation? >> And and thank you for saying all that. I. I I do feel like my experience of life.

has so often been like, why is nobody. saying this? Whether it is sitting on a. Zoom or sitting at a a a dinner table or. sharing a holiday with a bunch of. people, it's just like why are we not. talking about anything? Why? It just. feels like I'm going to [ __ ] explode. And writing is the place where I can not. explode, but explode in that way. I, you. know, not explode in in real life, but. on the page and get it all out and and. hopefully connect um in that way. It's I.

think the the truest form of myself and. the thing that I hope connects the most. with people and I think does. Well, all. the way back to the beginning of this. episode, maybe that is something people. will take from this is like 2026 is the. year of say whatever the [ __ ] you. actually feel and stop putting on a. front and stop pretending to be prim and. proper and this or whatever you want you. think people want you to be and just be. yourself and see how that goes for you. this year. >> Yeah, >> I'm going to try it. Oh, [ __ ]. [laughter]. >> Are you scared?

>> I I'm I'm I'm excited. I think it's a. great um wakeup call for all of us. because I agree. I think we've been. doing it too much. And I hope with your. I hope with your story you felt like we. dived in enough today where your message. came across cuz I felt like it was such. a powerful message and like I appreciate. you trusting me with your story because. it is a very vulnerable and honest one. So, thank you for coming on color. >> So nice. Thank you for having me. >> Thank you. [music].

>> [music].