I am Jane Doe

Hello everyone. Welcome back to a. really, really important episode of Call. Her Daddy. So, if you have been on. social media this week, you have most. certainly seen four words everywhere. I. am Jane Doe. As a woman, you probably saw those words. and you knew exactly what they meant. Maybe even your body knew before your. brain did. The words themselves are.

simple, right? But they carry the weight. of countless stories we hold as women. The stories of our friends, of our. sisters, of our mothers, of our. grandmothers, and for many of us, our. own stories. And right now, one of those. stories that has come to light is. forcing the country to pay attention. She was a 20-year-old student at Cornell. University who went to a frat party one. night to see a guy she thought was her.

friend. She eventually went upstairs. with him and another fraternity brother. And it was in that room that things took. an absolutely disturbing turn. And then. at 1:42 in the morning, a message went. out to a fraternity group chat saying, "Free pussy.". Another fraternity brother responded, "I. [ __ ] love Ki.". And later someone asked, "Shop still.

open?". Let me be really clear about something. These are men talking about a woman, a. human being, their classmate, their. supposed friend. When Jane Doe went to. Cornell's campus police three weeks. later, she spent hours with an. investigator giving a detailed account. of what she says happened to her that. night. And she was pretty damn clear. about one thing. She told the. investigator she was 100%.

confident she had been raped. I wanted. to come on and I wanted to talk about. this today because it is so important to. note. It has been almost a decade since. the Me Too movement first started. A. decade. How the hell are we still here? Right? We have been talking about campus. rape, consent, the way institutions fail. women for even longer than that. We've. got the language. We have the research.

We have the tools and the resources to. understand sexual violence, to help. survivors, and to prevent it from. happening. And yet we are still having. the exact same conversations. It is. exhausting. and more importantly it is infuriating. More than one in five women have. experienced rape. One in five women. So. every single one of us knows a Jane do. Many of us are Jane do. You know, every.

once in a while a story becomes so big. and it resonates with so many people. that it's clear it has the power to. change the way that we talk about an. issue. And I think we might be. witnessing one of those very moments. right now. And so when I started to. think about who could help us make sense. of this moment, who could answer some of. the questions and help us understand. where do we even go from here? I.

immediately thought of today's guest, Dr. Kate Man. My mom actually introduced. me to Kate a few years ago. I genuinely. believe she is one of the most. brilliant, important feminist thinkers. of our time, and she just so happens to. also be a professor at Cornell. University. What is up, daddy gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call.

Her Daddy. Daddy. >> Kate, you are a professor at Cornell. What does it feel like to be on campus. right now? The mood is pretty grim. I. think students are incredibly upset and. it's really all anyone can talk about. But I will say this, I had this moment. where we were all walking down to Ho. Plaza where the rally was on Monday to. support Jane Doe and it really felt like. an inspiring moment of hope to have so.

many students and faculty and staff. members coming together. It was. thousands of people and yeah, we turned. out for her which was so great. you have. written before um there's a feeling at. times that protesting sexual assault on. campus is a lost cause and I think a lot. of people do feel that in general. sometimes with protesting like is this. actually going to make a difference. Does this moment in particular feel any. different? It does feel different to me. It feels like there has been a kind of.

simmering rage frankly on behalf of. women that a lot of women were feeling. and also people who just care a lot. about women. And this has crystallized. something and it's become something much. bigger. It has a lot of momentum. It's. this sense that women and girls are owed. safety of a kind that we don't currently. have. And so it feels like this is the. moment to really demand better for. ourselves, for our daughters, for our.

sisters, for our friends. Obviously, we. talk about the pros and cons of social. media, right? And I feel like we are. actively watching. one of the pros and it's to be able to. see how many people are coming forward. and speaking and supporting, which has. been amazing. But in your opinion, why. do you think this particular case has. garnered so much national attention? >> This case being an alleged gang rape is. somewhat more salacious. People feel.

certain things like disgust at the level. of their visceral reaction to the case. it seems kind of out there and so that. can lead to more moral outrage even. though we should be equally outraged for. every victim who comes forward. I agree. I think the. >> headlines are so buzzy for people, seven. plus men and you know speculating of 50.

plus people in a group chat. it. There's. a story that people unfortunately on. social media are clinging to that's like. interesting and clickbay, but this was a. woman's reality. And also, even if it. was just one man, that's enough to have. a story be talked about. And so, I I. agree. I think it's important to. highlight the injustice is just as. strong. Whether it was seven, whether it. was one, however many, assault and rape. is assault and rape. >> That's exactly right. And so part of.

what is going on here is people feel. particularly disgusted towards the Frat. brothers, which I think makes sense, but. that drives a more heightened morally. outrage reaction. And I think that is. the right reaction. I share it. completely. If what Jane Doe alleges in. her lawsuit is true, and for the record, I believe her. And so I do want to just. say let's extend that out in the way. that I think the hash I am Jane do is. doing precisely that. I want to get a.

little bit more into that today of the. essentially the effects of sexual. assault especially on these campuses and. what the outcome is for the victim. rather the perpetrator. So prior to this. case how aware were you of sexual. violence at Cornell? I was very aware of. it and this is in fact why I began. working on misogyny because I came to. Cornell as an assistant professor in. 2013. I'm practically a lifer at this.

point and I immediately had young women. in my office talking to me about sexual. assault. And look, I was aware of the. abstract statistics which say this is. unfortunately very very common that. roughly a quarter of female. undergraduates will be subject to sexual. assault during their four years in. college which is really shocking. We. shouldn't lose our sense of shock that. this is happening but as you say it's. not surprising. We know this is.

happening and this sense that they were. being. subject to just horrific sexual. violence, but then there was really no. adequate institutional response. That is. what got me into thinking about misogyny. and all of its layers back at that time. And to clarify, is Cornell unique or is this. representative of a much larger problem. across campuses in this country? >> This is absolutely not a uniquely.

Cornell problem. And I say this not to. defend my employer. I have been very. vocally critical of Cornell's response. to these allegations, but this is a. ubiquitous problem across campuses. And. when it is a man versus a woman. scenario, very often nothing happens to. the alleged perpetrator, even when. there's really good evidence and the. female victim ends up in a terrible. position. So the system is just not.

working as it should. And frankly, it's. not even clear to me that it is even. designed to support survivors. women have come into your office and. explain what they've gone through with. sexual violence. >> Without getting into anyone's personal. stories, >> what were you hearing from these women. throughout these years? >> I want to share a story that I was given. someone's enthusiastic. consent to share with my readership. Um.

because this was a case that really. showed to me the layers of it. So this. student who I have given the um moniker. Jill to keep her anonymity and to. protect her, she came to me and she said. she had been subject to image-based. sexual in uh violence. And this. image-based sexual violence had been. something where it was just incessant. She couldn't shut it down. She was. incredibly bothered by it. Understandably, there were vile images.

of her on social media that were coming. from Frat Brothers that were targeting. her in her place of work on campus. So, she went to the police, the campus. police, CUPD, and she complained about. this. They sent a mail officer, and this. is all her written report of what. happened to me because she shared this. with me in a written form as well as a. conversation. So, I have all of the. written records. The male officer said.

she should be flattered by the. attention. He said that there was nothing he could. do if it wasn't stalking or some kind of. physical sexual violence and he just. left the case and did nothing except he. went to the head of Greek life at. Cornell and told him about the. allegations. That person then essentially tipped off. the fraternity that Jill had complained. and made these allegations betraying her.

confidence and disclosing her identity. because she was the only woman who. worked at that um particular workplace. and lived in the building. So she had. this situation where she tried to get. help and her safety was compromised. It's like we as women were told, "Well, why didn't you come forward?" And then. you have this woman who's coming forward. and the response is, "You should be. flattered by the attention of these.

naked images, this essentially revenge. porn being used against you to. traumatize you, and that is a form of. stalking.". >> I know. I also just want to validate any. woman who's watching who has decided to. not come forward with their stories. because this is a perfect example and I. appreciate you bringing this one up. before we get more into Jane Doe because. this just highlights actually these men. put this woman in even more danger by. her coming forward and talking about.

what happened to her. She ended up. actually being more exposed to these. fraternity brothers because they have. the police and they have the authorities. at the campus who are essentially. saying, "We're on your side.". >> Correct. >> And this woman is now alienated and. alone. >> Yeah. Why would she have spoken up? Now, in hindsight, I get why if she had to go. back and she wouldn't come forward. because look what happened to her. >> Yeah. And she said actually when she. wrote all of this down in an email to. me, which again I shared with her.

complete blessing and permission, she. said, "This will discourage me from ever. coming forward again." Doesn't that just. say it all? Women are often held to be. scared or anxious or worried about not. being believed. And of course, that can. be a factor and that is valid. But it's. also sometimes just a rational. calculation of what am I going to get. out of this? it might actually. compromise my safety and not help me at. all and we have to change that. That is. something that desperately needs.

institutional reform. Let's talk about. when it comes to the current case that. we are all talking about Jane do. specifically in what ways from what. you've been able to observe do you think. the system has failed this woman? >> So I think it's failed her in a number. of ways. I mean, one way that it's. failed her, and this has not been really. widely talked about, is she went to. Cornell Health because she had a UTI and. she talked about the fact that her. injuries were traumatic and according to.

her allegations, the physician or. medical provider, whoever it was, didn't. follow up and for example, offer to take. a rape kit. So, that is really one other. institutional betrayal that we need to. be thinking about. But let's also look. at the ones that we're all talking. about. So after what she alleged, she. went to Cornell University Police. They. have all of the powers of any other law. enforcement officer, but they're. employed by the university. So many.

people have been worried about this. conflict of interest, and I share that. worry. She went to CUPD. They had an. officer take hours of her statement. There's no evidence that it was a. traumainformed officer who understood. how to really sit down with someone who. has been subject to sexual violence. So. that is a problem. But maybe an even. bigger problem is they condensed hours. of her testimony, including the. statement, "I am 100% confident I was.

raped.". They deleted that from her statement and. condensed it into a mere six pages which. they then gave to the Tomkins County DA. who then did nothing on that basis. So. they alled her saying I was raped from. her testimony. Isn't that shocking? It's so shocking but it's also like you. said Kate like the administration. >> is funding. >> it's employing these they are university. employees as CUPD officers.

>> correct so it's like if your employer. you know wants to protect and cover. everything up always. makes sense why these people are. covering these things up we don't want. to deal with another rape case we can't. have another one on the fraternity we. got to kind of shove this under the rug. and so it's become a cultural. issue. >> and so as shocking as it is for all of. us to hear is it's not that shocking. >> It's not surprising. I always hold on to. this sense Alex of I am in a perpetual.

state of being morally shocked but not. empirically surprised and I want to be. clear. So I do think Cornell took some. actions that were very positive in this. case. So they immediately suspended the. fraternity, meaning that they can't hold. parties, they can't hold events, they're. not recognized on campus as having the. status of a fraternity. So that was a. serious action they took. And they. issued an interim suspension for those. seven students. Okay?

>> And then they expel two students. So. that's good. But five of the seven are. left free to graduate. And it is very. hard for me to understand. Admittedly. not privy to all of the ins and outs of. the internal investigation because none. of us are. But it is hard for me to. understand why Jane Doe ends up dropping. out and not getting her tuition refunded. while five of the seven men who she. alleged attacked her are left free to. graduate with a Cornell degree. I think.

we are owed much more accountability and. transparency about that process. I. couldn't agree more. I think that's. what's so infuriating. Again, the woman. is always the one because of the lack of. of accountability that is being taken. and the lack of action that is being. taken. She cannot feel safe. I really. think that we need to become a zero. tolerance campus and that all campuses. need to apply this policy where if we.

find someone responsible for a serious. kind of sexual misconduct that leads to. an expulsion. I completely agree. I want to talk more about. culture and men and what is underneath. all of this because there is so much to. discuss. And. >> you coined the term empathy, >> which. >> if no one knows what empathy means, Kate's about to explain it to us and you. will never not think of this word again. because I feel like it is literally what.

our world revolves around. So, can you. just explain what empathy is? Yeah. So. empathy is my word for the scenarios. where we have sympathy and loyalty for a. male perpetrator of misogyny over a. female victim. So basically we feel bad. for him who did the thing that is awful. over someone who is the victim of that. harmful behavior. And so we see this I. actually coined the term in relation to.

Brock Turner. He was found guilty. convicted of sexually assaulting Chanel. Miller behind a dumpster at Stanford's. campus after a fraternity party. And yet. so many people worried about him missing. out on his bright future rather than the. fact that what about her bright future? What about the ways she was shattered? What about the ways that this, as we now. know, brilliant writer and creator and. artist had her life derailed for years.

by what he did to her? And so our. sympathy flows up the social hierarchy. Instead of going to the people who. deserve it, the people who should be. centered and honored in this process, the victims of sexual assault, we worry. so much about him. Cuz even when you say. that, I feel like so many of the people. who watch and listen to my show are. women. So we're all like, "Oh my god, yes." Like I didn't know there was a. word for it, but yes. Like why are we. worried about the men? Can you explain.

from your understanding like why do we. do this? Why do why does society provide. such empathy for men who are engaging. and accused of sexual violence? So this. is how the wheels of patriarchy turn. It. is the system whereby if you do. something as a man and there is really. strong evidence or even in the case of a. Brock Turner full knowledge that he did.

what he did because he was apprehended. in the act of sexually assaulting Chanel. Miller by two Swedish graduate students. who caught him in the act and performed. a citizen's arrest. So we knew what he'd. done. And yet the sense is we cannot. possibly hold him accountable because he. is too important. He is the priority. He. is the center of this story. And she as. a female victim, especially if she is. similly or even less privileged, we do.

not care about women. We are indifferent. to women and girls. So, I've spent so. much of my academic career trying to. understand misogyny as not hatred in. boys' hearts, but rather as a social. system that punishes and enforces. patriarchal norms and expectations by. visiting women with so much [ __ ] so. much hostility, so much hatred when we. don't stay in our lane. But the flip. side of misogyny is just as women get.

punished, men get rewarded. So whenever. you have these social systems where you. have punishment and blame and holding. women responsible for their behavior. even when they're really doing nothing. wrong, you're going to have this flip. side which is rewarding and lionizing. and even celebrating him for engaging in. this punitive and misogynistic behavior. So it all fits together. >> It does. And can you fit it together for.

us for people who are so engaged and. following this Jane do case? In what. ways are we seeing empathy and misogyny. kind of show up in response to Jane do. right now? >> Well, so what we see in this particular. case, if her allegations are true, and. again I am just going to state candidly. for the record, I believe Jane Doe. So. if what she alleges is true, they those. seven men acted in a way that was just.

irredeemably entitled. They acted like. they were utterly entitled to take what. they wanted from her. Not because I. think they were all that interested in. her as a human being, but because they. wanted to show off to each other and get. points in an intramasculine hierarchy. And basically, Peacock perform their. masculinity in ways that being. misogynistic in that game is not a. feature, it's a bug. Violating a woman.

is not like, "Whoops, I didn't realize. what I was doing." It's what they're. aiming to do because that gives you. points in this intramasculine. competition. And so once that. entitlement is in place, unfortunately a. lot of people in our patriarchal society. actually share this sense that men are. entitled to do what they like to women's. bodies. And so you see the empathy in. the sense that well maybe he was. entitled to do this if she was drunk or.

uncetamine voluntarily which I think you. know there are very difficult questions. to be asked about ways in which we have. buil this as voluntary drug and alcohol. use where her lawsuit make puts that in. question let's just say but whatever it. was there's this sense that he is. entitled to do what he likes to a. woman's body and we are basically on his. side. And this is a very unfortunate.

reality. But empathy is not just. something men feel for each other. It's. something that I think as women we. sometimes need to get past in ourselves. this sense that holding him accountable. would almost be wrong because we owe. loyalty and sympathy to a male. perpetrator over the woman he has abused. or assaulted or been otherwise. misogynistic towards. Do you mind. defining um intermculine. competition? Cuz that was really. interesting how you started to explain.

that dynamic. >> Yeah. So I think we need to be looking. hard at all male groups in this. situation and the way that in an allmale. group men are basically competing with. each other but also wanting each other's. approval and admiration and even love. So there's this amazing quote from. Marilyn Fry. This classic feminist quote. that you will see all over the place. saying straight men in groups, they are.

having sex with women, but they actually. want the love and admiration and. everything else from male peers. They're. actually more oriented in a funny way. towards performing their masculinity for. their male peers and showing off. And. women are then often just a means to an. end. They're trophies in this. They're. someone to exploit and behave. disgustingly towards as a form of again. kind of masculine peacocking and showing.

off what a big man you are because you. have done this disgusting thing to a. woman. And it really is such a terrible. system because in these all male groups, my read on it is that there are kind of. two rules of the bro code. One is that. if someone proposes something immoral or. illegal, you don't call it out. You. don't say no. You don't shut it down. You ratchet it up. You at least. participate. And the other aspect of the.

bro code, I think, is empathy. You. protect your brothers after the fact. instead of a vulnerable person like Jane. Doe allegedly was in this situation. You. don't help her. You help your brothers. cover their asses. I agree with you on. that empathy note too because I think so. many people we've just been seeing like. but should one night really ruin his. future? Like should are we really going. to do that? Like are we sure? And again. it's not just I agreed the men there are.

women who are thinking that I've seen a. lot of women on social media saying you. know I I did think about that before I. came forward because I'm like oh my god. could this ruin his life? The answer is. usually no. It actually probably won't. ruin his life unfortunately. He'll be. fine. >> He'll be fine. It makes so much sense. the way that we actually reward men who. are exceptionally good at exercising. their power in a way that is demonic.

But we still somehow as a society view. it of like a lot of men look at it like. well it is kind of commendable. like he. like there's something weird and twisted. that we have and it is the patriarchy. misogyny that a lot of us don't want to. admit it and women do it too where we're. like but he's powerful. >> Yeah. That act of domination is seen as. a kind of sign of masculine prowess and. it is awful. It's like a complete. inversion of what morality really is, which is we should be kind to each.

other. If you see someone in trouble, you help them. You don't hurt them. But. in these allmale groups, this dynamic. really reverses where you see that. there's almost a sense of moral. obligation to go along with the worst. act. So it's not just that morality goes. out the window. It feels to me as a. moral philosopher more like there's a. sense of no, my moral obligation now, the right thing to do now would actually. be to go in and participate and be part.

of this group effort to humiliate a. woman and assert what men are entitled. to and be part of this quote unquote. fun. >> I want to come back to fraternities in a. little bit. Um, something that has been. a pretty prominent. conversation online that women have. brought up and and it's really ruffled a. lot of men's feathers is the man verse.

bear conversation that kind of took off. this past year on Tik Tok. And um, basically it's like to anyone that's not. familiar, women were asked essentially, would you rather be stranded in the. woods with a man or a bear? M. >> and most women say a bear. No doubt. about it. And a lot of people are like, "Wait, wait, why?" And I'm like, "Because if the bear comes and mauls me. and I somehow survive and I go to the. police station and I say this bear. mauled me, they're going to go into the.

woods and they're going to shoot the. bear." But we know the alternative. This. is the whole conversation we're talking. about, right? You go in and you go into. Cornell PD and you tell them what these. men did to you and they tell you, "Well, you should be flattered that he came for. you. You should. >> What were you wearing? What were you. wearing? So why then you have the. uprising of men being enraged by this. conversation. >> What do you think about this. conversation? And why do you think men. are so deeply insulted by this.

>> comparison? I love this question because. I think that it is so natural and normal. for a man to hear this comparison and to. feel at the very least really. uncomfortable and to feel confronted. like women in my life and women I follow. online are saying that men are really. really dangerous. Like that's what this. comparison is saying. But I would really. encourage men to sit with their sense of. discomfort and channel that and see if.

they can sit with that and work up a. feeling of outrage on behalf of women. because understanding that we're making. this comparison because the world is. such a dangerous place for women and so. much more dangerous than it needs to be. I think channeling that discomfort into. a sense of, oh, that must be what it's. like to be a woman and I need to take. action on that basis. Not to be prodded. into it by the women in my life and not.

to have the conversation of my mother, my daughter, my sisters. That's a good. start. But you can just be upset that a. woman, a girl, any woman is subject to. sexual violence of a kind that is. completely unacceptable. So yeah, take your sense that this is an. uncomfortable conversation and see if. you can do something more impressive. with it than remaining in that place of. defensiveness. I am I am not anti-men in.

any way. This comes from a place of. hope. Really, we are having these. conversations partly because this is not. inevitable male behavior in any way. Men. can behave so much better than this. And. we see this, I'm sure, in our own lives. in the many people who have as men. earned our trust. My some of my best. friends and yes, my husband and my. colleagues and my wonderful male. students and all of the wonderful young.

boys in my daughter's life. I think that. we can come at this from a place of. saying we're holding you accountable as. a group because of course men are. capable of good, decent, humane. behavior. We have all the optimism that. this is possible because it's actual. So. why are there some men perpetrating acts. that just are utterly inexcusable in the. year of outlaw 2026? Something that I've seen a lot online.

also is we are referring to the Cornell. 7 alleged rapists as boys. Um, and this. happens a lot, right? We we tend to call. them boys instead of men. Um, and as we. are essentially infantilizing these men, it feels like we are doing the exact. opposite to Jane Doe. And we are trying. to analyze every single decision she.

made that night. And some people are. desperately wanting, they want her real. name. They want to know what she looks. like. >> Why? It's so interesting because I do. think that part of the power of the I am. Jane Doe movement and it really does. feel like a movement at this point is. that we don't know her identity and many. people can project onto her their own. experiences of sexual assault, sexual. violence, sexual harassment and more.

And that is a wonderful thing. She is. kind of because she is so courageous and. has come forward in this lawsuit, she's. become a kind of roar shark as a victim. for anyone's experiences. And yet, because of that anonymity, not. knowing her identity, there are people. who are really interestingly desperate. to see what she looks like as if that. would explain what happened. And I have. written extensively on the way that if.

someone is perceived as not. conventionally attractive, they're. actually more subject to sexual. violence, sexual violence is actually. slightly elevated for people who are in. larger bodies for one example of this. because people who want to um perpetrate. sexual violence perceive that they will. not be believed. they will they have the. I think very accurate belief that people. will dismiss their testimony about what.

happened to them by saying well she's. not the most attractive girl she was. probably flattered and it's so appalling. but this sense that essentially a woman. has to be a very very particular way and. a perfect victim in order to be credible. is something we need to lose that. collective myth and that belief we need. to lose that yesterday. >> It's so. disturbing because I. think you're so right in I think people.

are looking. they want to know her race so bad. >> Yes. >> They want to know. what her social media looked like. They. want to know they want to know. everything and so that they can destroy. this woman essentially. And I I. I'm so in a in a way um. happy that we're being able to see this. this conversation happening without.

essentially objectifying a woman and. just letting the facts and the story. speak for itself. And I agree with you. It has allowed that level of anonymity. to have every woman of every race, of. every body type, of every like everyone. is able to talk about their own Jane Doe. story. But the perfect victim um. >> is something that is coming up a little. bit and I was actually reading comments. in um this morning and people were like, "What is everyone talking about? What do.

you mean the perfect victim?" And can. you explain that for people who may not. be familiar? cuz although we're talking. about it like really put it into pretty. simple terms for maybe people watching. who don't understand. >> Great question. So I can make it very. concrete. The perfect victim looks a. certain way. She is thin. She is white. She is also someone who is perceived as. pure according to patriarchal purity. norms which says she can't ever consume. drugs or alcohol. She is not allowed to.

enjoy partying. She's not really meant. to enjoy sex. She is meant to be this. pure almost virginal woman who is. considered perfect according to. patriarchy and then the idea is she is. sullied by rape. And in any other case, there is a prevalent belief. Of course, it is hopefully we're making progress on. this, but there is often a belief that. it is essentially the victim's fault. Or.

in some cases, we just don't care very. much. Or again, we're skeptical that she. could really have been sexually. assaulted because we continue to make. this mistake of thinking that rape is. about sex rather than power and that. therefore only someone who is the most. conventionally attractive woman could. possibly be attacked in this way, which. is such a fallacy. I mean, I've written. about the intersection of misogyny and. fat phobia for years, and I was like,

you have, you know, managed a a new low. in terms of the discourse. You have. managed to be not only victim blaming, but bring fat phobia into this as an. element of this case. Like, congratulations. This is these are. horrific comments that show that a woman. who is not considered perfect as an. archetype and morally perfect is not. going to be taken seriously in many. contexts. I also am so glad that you're. bringing up, which we're going to get.

to, that rape has really nothing to do. with sexuality. This is not like, oh my. god, this man can't control himself cuz. he's just so horny and he has to have. sex with this woman right now. like it. it that is not what is happening. Um but. before we get there, I think it's so. important the way that you are kind of. talking about the the victim and the. multitude of angles that we come from. when we look at are they worthy of being.

believed essentially. And this specific. case with Jane Doe, people are starting. to point out that initially it is. believed that she consented to a. threesome that night. that has now become such a central. debate over what happened afterwards. And now, well, was it really rape if she. was okay with the threesome? Talk to me about this. >> Yeah, it is so wild to me that we're. still having to say this, but let's just. be really clear. You can be sexually.

adventurous as a woman and still be. raped. You can consent, and I'm not. saying this is what happened because it. is at the very least unclear. You can. consent to have sex with two men, but. not five men or seven men. So we need to. be really clear that women are allowed. to we are entitled to have sexual. freedom and still be taken seriously. when we come forward and say this was.

not consensual. And so many victims of. sexual assault, part of the activity was. consensual. like she said yes to the. date or she said yes to a kiss or she. even said yes to some form of sexual. activity but then it turned violent or. non-consensual in a way that I think. that is also part of why many people are. relating to Jane Doe's story which is. that then you often times end up blaming. yourself and even gaslighting yourself.

and saying did I really. have this encounter that was just. completely horrific and not consensual. The answer is yes, but because there is. an aspect of the night that I did agree. to that becomes harder to say. About 85. to 90% of sexual assaults reported by. college women are perpetrated by someone. they know. >> The victim, this is usually a friend of.

the victim. this is usually someone that. they are friends with to some degree or. they're in the same social circle. And. so I think also why it's so hard for. women aside from the actual aftermath. and the in the moment and after of the. trauma that they're enduring. There is. something that is again so not perfect. victim of okay hold on this man didn't. just jump out of the bushes and push me. to the ground and I and I was raped and. and I'm scared and this is what it looks. like in the movies, right? It's hard.

though for I think a woman to understand. if I knew him and he was I thought my. supposed friend, how am I going to. explain this to people after you go. through something so horrific? And this. is something that is also happening in. this case. >> Another thing people scrutinize a victim. for. >> is this aftermath we're talking about, right? If a woman continues to text or. to see the person that she says.

assaulted her, people immediately think. that that is evidence that the assault. could not have happened or that she is. lying. Why might someone stay in contact. with the person who harmed them? >> Yeah. And these two points are. connected. So, we have this archetype of. a monster in the bushes who is this. dastardly character who you would just. recognize him on site as a bad person. who jumps out as a stranger and rapes a.

victim. But we know that that is a. caricature which just isn't accurate at. all. And in fact, the idea of a monster. kind of exonerates other men via this. caricature because they are not this. monster archetype. And as a result, I. think as a direct result of that, a lot. of women have trouble reconciling their. image of what sexual assault is with. what happened to them. They're like, "Well, he's not a monster, therefore he.

couldn't have done this." Instead of. thinking, as people eventually come to, he did this. And so sexual assault can. be perpetrated by people who don't seem. like monsters and are not monsters. They. are in a sense very ordinary men. So in. the case of Jane Doe and many many other. victims of sexual violence, we really. have to understand the flight, fight, freeze or fawn response where fing is a.

way of saying after the fact, "Oh, it. was okay. Oh, I enjoyed it. I think. you're nice." Even though that is not. actually accurate at all to what the. victim ultimately thinks. and to what. happened to her. It is rather that she. feels like the only way she can be safe. is to plate him. And also, frankly, sometimes our brains don't want to fully. recognize the horror of what we have. been through. So, it can take a long.

time for us to say what has happened to. us and to name it even though what. happened was not consensual. um in cases where like Jane Doe there. were consensual aspects of it again. according to her allegations. there is just a very real kind of. self-defensive self-protective mechanism. that kicks in and people don't want to. say immediately what they're having.

trouble processing. And so fawning is. both about not um really being able to. reconcile your image of a sexual. assalant with well he's your friend but. also protecting yourself against this. horrible thing you now have to wrap your. mind around. And I think what has been. again something that has hopefully. through more people sharing in this I am. Jane Doe movement.

women are seeing this and and people are. trying to use, you know, she texted him. the next day or whatever as like so does. it didn't happen. It didn't happen. What. has been so sad but also illuminating is. the amount of women in the comment. section that are like, "Oh, oh, she she. texted him the next day. I I stayed with. my rapist for two more years and. continued to date him. I called him the. next day and asked if he wanted to go to. pizza with you. I I I went to his house. the next day. I had consensual sex with.

him the next day. >> It is so. confusing, I think, because we have not. been able to find the right way to talk. about this because it's so secretive, right? That people start to again, he's. a monster. No, no, this is your friend's. brother. This is your neighbor. This is. the kid that sits next to you in class. And they look like ordinary guys. And so. much of the conversation people are. starting to have that is also, I hope,

going to change the way that we believe. and look at victims is. every woman knows a woman who has been. raped. Yes. >> Every woman. >> If you walk down Time Square and you. grab a woman, can you do you know? Yep. You got it. You go ask a man, do you. know any a rapist? And they're all like, no, no, no, no. So then who's doing it, though? And so I think it's important. that we use these moments to have these. conversations to continue to educate not. only everyone but ourselves and remind.

ourselves you guys this is a strategic. lens that has been portrayed to us that. we are supposed to believe. So that it. also we gaslight ourselves essentially. to not think well m maybe maybe I I saw. it wrong maybe I saw it wrong right I. mean he's a nice guy he did something. that maybe he was confused about.

question mark I should really make this. okay between us because that's my role. that's my job as a woman is to smooth. social relations and make sure no one. feels uncomfortable and so I'm going to. reach out and text him. And that's part. of it, too, which really breaks my heart. that these signs that a woman is feeling. really deeply uncomfortable are. misinterpreted to say nothing happened. when the fact that she was trying to in.

a way pleate him or reconcile in her own. brain what was happening with her what. her body is experiencing. I mean, let's. remember Jane Doe went to Cornell Health. and said, "I, you know, was subject to. traumatic injuries." And as well as. that, she also went to the emergency. room eventually, the day before she. filed a police report where she asked. for a rape kit. This is not someone who.

was shrugging her shoulders and then. changed her mind. She was, if you read. the New York Times story about how she. went from shame to anger, she was. processing and she was going through. many attempts to get help. And my sense. is. when you're a victim of something, there's the awful fact of what happened. But what is almost worse for many. victims I have spoken to in my work is. the sense of indifference surrounding.

it. the silence surrounding it and the. shrugging about it. And so the way women. are so deeply unhelped and I would just. say unheld in society when something. awful happens to you and instead of. everyone being like, "Oh my god, what. can we do? You need support and we need. to listen to you. We need to help you. We need to have accountability for the. perpetrators." when all of that is. absent and instead you get a kind of. hympathetic task force trying to.

exonerate him and shrugging their. shoulders about what you're alleging, then you end up doubly traumatized. because it wasn't just the event, it was. the way you are unheld by everyone in. the aftera. I think that's such a great. point, Kate. And also. having been in college and and you know. interacted with. frat bros. It's like I can also imagine. when you're when we talk about the.

trauma of a woman. I think it makes. sense to so many women when we hear like. of course you don't wake up the next. morning and you say this is what. happened and this is what I need to do. There is something in your body that is. trying to not only survive what you just. physically went through mentally also. what you're going through but. emotionally being on a campus where the. humiliation and you know what could come. with it like there's so much that we. will never be able to understand what.

this woman slowly started to unpack the. day after the 3 days later the week. after of starting to put together truly. as her brain and her body became a. little bit more lucid to her reality. It. it makes me emotional thinking about. her. And so to act like a victim is not. going to have that on the nth degree of. the scale. We're we're just we're being.

uh negligent to what we know as human. beings our bodies go through, which is. really upsetting that we give no grace. to these women. I want to talk to you. about. rape and frat culture. You recently. questioned the phrase teach men not to. rape. >> And it's something that people say and I. can't believe that's even a statement. that we have to teach men not to rape. But what do you think this framing gets.

wrong? >> And look, I believe in education. passionately. I am an educator. That's. my whole thing. But education can be a. necessary step without it being even. remotely sufficient. So I think for. young boys who are in say early. adolescence, then developmentally. appropriate, age appropriate lessons. about what consent looks like can be. valuable. But once we're doing that, repeating that process and doubling down.

on that really assumes the problem is. that these men simply do not know what. they're doing and that they want consent. and they're just somehow bungling the. exercise. I find that highly. questionable. I think in many cases, unfortunately, the violation is the. point. We have a problem not of not. knowing what they're doing, but knowing. exactly what they're doing and wanting. to do it anyway because that is a way. again of getting masculine proess, of.

getting points in a masculine. competition, and of kind of celebrating. your misogyny to other people who are. watching the exercise, to other men who. are watching the exercise. So if this is. not a problem of false beliefs, but. really bad desires to violate women, then we need a completely different. approach than just telling men what. consent is and teaching them not to rape. in a way that is based on this, I think,

false assumption that men are committed. as a group to ensuring this doesn't. happen. So basically what you're saying. is like. when men are like what even is consent. these days like no don't rape a woman. don't inappropriately touch a woman do. not touch a woman if she does not want. to be touched. >> Um and so it really has nothing to do. with these men are not confused. It all. has to do with the violation that they.

are enjoying and the power that they are. asserting over this woman's body. And. then actually the lack of education also. can be used as well I didn't well what I. oh okay so we're not allowed to and it's. like they're hiding behind the lack of. education. No one is [ __ ] confused. what rape is. >> They're not confused because it's not. confusing. If there is any question of. whether or not someone wants to do this, you don't do it. It's very simple. No.

one has ever died from, I will not have. sex with this person who I think is has. had a little bit too much to drink. No. one has ever even suffered badly from. saying, you know what, someone else. seems a little compromised or I'm not. totally sure that the enthusiasm was. there. We're just not going to do this. right now. So, the idea that this is. this highly confusing thing and that. education is going to make this huge. difference to rates of rape is also just.

I'm sorry, but we've been beating this. drum for a long time and we have not. seen rates of sexual assault go down. meaningfully. In fact, we're seeing some. evidence of an uptick. And so, let's be. real here about what the problem is. And. I think Celeste Davis, the writer, put. it beautifully in her essay on this. She. says, "Look, violating a woman is unfortunately it. can be a feature, not a bug for certain. men under patriarchy." And that's a.

horrible reality. And that's a very. confronting statement. And look, it's. not true of every sexual assault. And. there are, you know, some circumstances. where more education would be helpful. But in a lot of cases, the aim is to. assert your entitlement to a woman's. body and violate her very deliberately. such that there is not an honest attempt. to get consent that was again somehow. bungled here. How does fraternity.

culture reinforce these beliefs or. motivations? >> I mean, I think all male groups. generally are very problematic. I mean, look at the Epstein files and the way so. many men didn't call each other out for. doing disgusting things to girls, and I. emphasize to children. It is so painful. to think about. And of course, fraternities aren't completely unique, but they are one kind of allmale group.

where it's this dynamic on steroids. You've talked about how, you know, fraternities are basically hotbeds of. rape and misogyny. Let's talk about what. is in the DNA of fraternities. Let's. talk about. >> rush week and let's talk about the. hazing and the it's not even a group. think mentality. It is like this silent. code of conduct that it's like we are. all going to first of all do something. essentially illegal. >> to to kick off our time together and we.

are going to suffer and be in pain and. go through all of this together. And can. you talk about almost like what what. starts as the bonding and then this. ritual then continues as we saw in these. Snapchat messages with what was going on. with Jane Doe. >> Yeah, completely. I mean, we don't just. need to be concerned about fraternities. in terms of sexual violence, although. that's a huge factor. There's also. hazing and bullying of a kind that's so. severe it's got a name, a special name, which is biohazing.

So basically um ways in which people are. forced to consume. just substances that they shouldn't be. are exposed to essentially biohazards. I. mean who wants their child going into an. environment like this even independently. of the fact that there is good evidence. that they're more likely to be initiated. into rape culture if they're a member of. a fraternity versus not. And so I just.

don't think these institutions should be. part of a modern university which is a. place of learning, a place of education, a place where we should be having fun. and the students should feel a sense of. enormous freedom in ways that honestly I. don't think the fraternity brothers feel. very free either. There is this very. established code within them to go along. with terrible things and then the kind. of ama the silence around anything bad. that was done. I had posted a couple.

weeks ago Kate at the very beginning of. this and I just was like how are. fraternities still up and running? Like. we need to shut these fraternities down, right? and seeing first of all how many. women in sororities were like, "Oh, we. got shut down because there was a bottle. of wine in a room where there was a. freshman." That's how that's how our um. sorority got shut down. But but yeah, let's look now at what the fraternities. are doing. Again, it's just the. disparity in the accountability is.

shocking with men versus women. But when. we do talk about this, I and I posted. about this. So many people were. messaging me, "Oh, well, Alex, it's not. every fraternity. It's not all frater, it's not all men. It's not all this.". People often obviously are going to. respond to the conversation by making it. clear it's not 100%. What is your. response when people say, "Well, it's. not every frat, Kate, so why would we. shut them all down?". >> Well, look, we always have to make a. complex risk versus reward calculation.

And let me give you an analogy. Maybe um you have had a good time. drinking and it's really convenient to. drive home and you were fine. You drove. home drunk, worked out fine. It was a. convenient way to get home and you had. an excellent time drinking at that. party. That does not mean drunk driving. is okay. It means you got lucky. So to. the person who says, "Look, my. fraternity was nice, or it wasn't that. nice, but nothing like this ever.

happened." I'm sorry. I'm so pleased for. you. That's wonderful. But the. riskreward calculation is just. completely off. These are dangerous. institutions to the point where a really. telling detail from Jane Doe's lawsuit. is that they are virtually uninsurable. That's how dangerous fraternity houses. are, that they're just a hair below. hazardous waste disposal and asbestos. removal in terms of insurance risk. So. if insurance companies are saying, "No,

this is how dangerous a frat is, even if. you personally had a good experience in. your frat, I'm sorry, we need to be. really changing our policies." Even so, just as we became incredibly hard on. drunk driving and that had demonstrable. results in terms of reducing rates of. deaths and horrific injuries, I think we. need to take a similar approach here of. we need to radically change how we're. thinking about these institutions and.

reform our response to them and be. intolerant of institutions where yeah, it's just so much harm and whatever good. they do is just outweighed by that harm. Um, I agree especially because we have. the statistics, we have the statistics, we it's all right there. >> At the same time, you have advised young. women to avoid fraternity houses. >> How do you give young women, you know, practical advice about protecting.

themselves without putting the. responsibility. back on them? >> Totally. And this has to be a really. nuanced conversation because I want to. be completely clear. If you go to the. worst frat on the worst night and get. absolutely shitfaced, anything that. happens to you is 100% the fault of the. people who do that bad thing. Rape is. always 100% the fault of the rapist, 0%. on the victim. But that's a question,

that's a conversation about morality and. who is to blame for rape. Again, 100%. the rapist. So, does that make sense. that I want young women to feel very. clear that I would never even remotely. hold them responsible in any way for any. ill that befalls them. And at the same. time, if they're practicing. forward-looking self-p protection, then. I do want to acknowledge that there may. be ways to minimize risk and I want them. to have that information. Um, and I.

think we need to have a more nuanced. conversation about this when people are. interested in self-p protection, and not. everyone is, but we also have to. recognize that it's not just for rats. If we want to talk to women about, oh, where are places that you could get. raped? Well, um, for a lot of us, then. you're going to say you can't go home, you can't go to the gym, you can't go to. your job, you can't go to the doctor's. office, you can't go to the park, you.

can't you can't we can't go anywhere. >> So, you can't be inside, you can't be. outside, you can't be. >> and it's it's it's disheartening even. Kate, as women, this is though our. reality. And so all of us also we can. get angry as we should and we should be. upset but we also have to live in our. reality of like unfortunately this is. what it is. And so until we are going to. continue to be loud and active and force. and change. yes be realistic about our. circumstances. >> I mean it's a kind of you shouldn't have.

to but you do. Yes, there are so many. situations where you shouldn't have to. think for a single second about any. aspect of your sexual and physical. safety in this way. And unfortunately, we often do in ways that I do want to be. able to have these kinds of. conversations with my daughter where and. she's just six, nearly seven, but I want. to be able to say to her, look, if you. come to me and you say you have placed. yourself in a situation of risk, I want.

to be very clear. I will say. I do not care what you did. I do not. care what you drank, what drugs you. took, what you were wearing. this is. 100% on the people who wronged you. I am. always, always, always on your side and. morally speaking, you did nothing wrong. But if she's coming to me and saying, "Look, I'm worried about doing this or. that." I'll say, "Okay, I think gently. this would be a great idea and this.

could be risky." So that is what I would. advise looking forward. And again, if. you decide to do things differently, I'm. on your team and I will support you. every step of the way. So that's like a. very contextsensitive and nuanced. conversation. And that's the. conversation I want to make room for as. feminists, which isn't as blunt as just. like insisting you can go anywhere and. do anything because that's what it ought. to be. But that doesn't mean that that. is how it is in reality. So, when we.

look at this Jane Doe case, um, when it comes to all these men in. this group chat, something that has been. extremely. interesting to watch unfold within this. case is the element of technology. >> Yeah. And if these Snapchat messages. didn't come out, >> we probably would be even a little bit. more lenient to these men and seeing in. writing like these are your friends.

These are the frat guys at KiFi, wherever they are and like this is what. they're messaging on weekends. This was. a normal. No one was like confused. No. one had to ask a question. It was like, "Oh, we're back. It's Saturday night. Here we go, boys. Like the fact that. someone wrote like shop still open and. whip it out, boys. >> We would be so naive to just turn a. blind eye and just say like this is a. one-off. This is one of the few that yes.

is going and someone is actually taking. legal action. And it happens that thank. god social media has gotten so loud. because I I believe that this is going. to help push it even more up the hill, but it is so hard to even get it up the. hill. We're watching it right now. People are already starting to. discredit. People are already starting. to defend the quote boys in this um and. we've known this for a long time, Alex. And this is not just sexual violence. It's also intimate partner and other.

forms of domestic and dating violence. And we have examples close to home of. horrific abuse that happen in our. neighborhoods. These are our friends. These are our colleagues. Sometimes. they're our own partners. And yet. there's this sense that evil is somehow. elsewhere and other. And that is not. accurate. It is a matter of hierarchy. and a matter of genderbased domination. that is just such a prevalent force in. society. But I really think we can do.

better. I'm here and have been on this. just um decadesl long career path. because I really think that we can do. better than this for girls and women. >> I agree. Cornell has said it wants to learn from. what happened here. Um you have said you. want to see you know there needs to be a. no no tolerance policy. >> Yes. This case seems to have in an.

amazing way outraged and woken up women. by far beyond Cornell. Um they are using. I am Jane Doe not only to stand with her. but to talk about their own experiences. What do you think changes when women are. able to recognize their individual. experiences in a larger pattern? Basically what's happening right now. I. think there's something so powerful in. it because sexual violence among other. things is really shaming for many people.

including Jane Doe. It does this thing. where it makes you feel like you're the. bad person even though you did nothing. wrong. And so what shame does like think. about it physically it bows our head. It. disconnects us. You lower your eyes. Maybe you want to disappear. But when that shame changes sides and. you have women looking at each other and. other victims of sexual assault, because. of course there are other uh victims of.

sexual assault, there are always victims. from people of every gender, but it is. disproportionately women raising their. heads and looking at each other and. saying, "I am Jane Doe." And that does. something amazing to galvanize a sense. that we have nothing to be ashamed. about. And actually that shame does need. to change sides. And the people who. should be ashamed are the people who are. doing the sexual assault. They rapists. should be ashamed of themselves. It's so. It's so true. It sounds so simple.

though, Kate. It's like how is Jane Doe. the one who is getting the shame? You. can already feel it. And it's like, what. about these men? Like, oh, what about. his future? What about her future? And. it's like it's so simple, but we still. are like, "Well, what did she do? What. did she wear? What?" It's all on this. woman. So, I do agree with you that when. we're able to help other women lift. their heads up, hold their hands, all of. us look at each other, and be like, "You're not alone in this. There is.

something that feels so powerful." And. the idea that we demand safety for girls. and women, that is something I deeply. believe in. And look, shame gets a very. bad rap, but I think shame has a. powerful role here. Shame is a powerful. motivator for people to not do shameful. bad things like committing sexual. assault. >> I was going to say also, Kate, when you. think of the word shame, it's very. gendered in my opinion. You just think. of women. >> That is absolutely right. And that is so.

interesting too because so much actually. shameful behavior is disproportionately. perpetrated by boys and men. So why is. that? >> I think something as you know someone. who is about to become a parent. I also. think that something that has been. allowing me to feel more hopeful about. future generations is when we are. looking at these men and these women,

>> we we we actually can do something. >> Yes. And and as this generation that I'm. a part of is raising the next. generation, we have an opportunity to. course correct essentially and look at. the trauma that so many of us have. endured and say if you are raising a. young girl or young boy, you have an opportunity to help them. understand what is appropriate, what is. consent. Yes, we can educate them from a.

young age how to have the moral compass. that is going to allow them that when. they are put in that group chat with. that amount of men, they can actually. feel so confident in themselves to be. the person that is the buzzkill, that is. the one that says, "What the [ __ ] is. going on?" That is the one that goes to. the authorities. That is the one that. stops it. And I think that is something. as someone who's about to become a. mother, it it gives me hope because it's. something tangible that I know that I. can at least control within my household.

and myself. You can't control everyone. But I do think for any woman or man. watching, it's like that is one thing. that we can do. We if if you are looking. if you are interested in having children. or raising the next generation, that is. something tangible, right? That's. exactly right. And there is something. really possible here to do that is a lot. bigger and deeper and more radical than. consent education which is teach boys to. care. Teach boys to be caregivers for.

each other but also every human. So. there is often this sense that what boy. moms need to do is to teach boys to shut. things down if for example they are. subjected to a hug that they don't want. and that's great. That's part of it. There's also a sense that boys need to. express their emotions openly and again. that's great. It's part of it. But boys. need to be taught they are not entitled. to other people's bodies and to touch.

without permission. And it is a very. simple lesson. I mean, teach boys to be. babysitters for that matter. Teach boys. that they can be teachers and that they. should be contributing to caring for the. next generation. I do think there is a. sense of yeah, like a limited repertoire. that we're teaching boys about in terms. of truncating their sense of. entitlement. What about instilling in. boys a sense that they are morally.

responsible for caring for everyone. around them such that that is the. mentality of a boy who might be able to. intervene in the group chat and say. that's not okay. I'm going to be the. killjoy. I am going to intervene and. this is not cool and just shut that [ __ ]. down. As we look forward and kind of. conclude this conversation, um I'm. curious if you think that we could be. witnessing. the beginning of another Me Too.

movement. I do think that it feels like. this really incredible momentum that you. know thanks to those brilliant student. journalists, Sice and Sophia have really. started something that feels like. another powerful way in which women are. coming together and recognizing their. ability to protest unjust treatment. So, I do think we're seeing that. >> What needs to happen now for this to.

become sustained change rather than just. another moment of outrage and then and. then and then. >> Well, I think we need to get really. serious about looking at police. departments on university campuses and. their role in this and having. traumainformed officers doing this kind. of interviewing. We need to get really. serious about Title N investigative. offices and completely reforming that.

process. And we need to get serious. about a zero tolerance policy at. universities where if a student is found. responsible or at fault for sexual. misconduct, in my opinion, they should. be expelled. That's what zero tolerance. means. But as well as that, this is an. opportunity to continue to push at the. bare that is patriarchy. It's such a big. thing. There are so many pieces of it to. dismantle, but we can begin to work on.

that process. And this is a moment to. say, look, a victim is never to blame. for what happens to her. A rapist is. 100% the responsible party for a rape, and we need to be protecting and. supporting survivors of sexual violence. and not protecting perpetrators. Kate, thank you so much for coming on Call Her. Daddy. I. know that this is just the beginning of. the conversations and I'm so grateful to.

you and our relationship and and getting. to pick your brain all the time, but I'm. so happy that now my audience was also. able to hear from you because you are so. bright and you have such a incredible. grasp on really one of the biggest. fights that we as women are up against. right now. And it sometimes feels. truly unimaginable that change could. actually happen. I think sometimes it.

feels like you're just yelling into a. void. I feel feel like that sometimes on. my show where I'm like, "We're talking. about it again. Here we are again." Um, but I do think that these moments we. have to get loud and we have to sit and. talk and look at each other. And I. believe that that's the only way through. is to just keep forcing conversation. And I know it's not going to change. overnight, but I do believe that the.

amount of women who are coming forward. with their stories, it feels different. right now. And so we need to keep the. momentum up. I am so grateful for this. conversation, Alex, because this is. doing the work. This is lending your. voice and your platform and your. advocacy to stand up for survivors in a. way that truly matters. And that means. the world to me and I believe will mean. the world to Jane Doe because let's not.

let a single other alleged victim of. sexual assault end up so unhelped and so. unheld in the aftermath. >> I I agree with you. It's almost like the. last statement is to her. Yeah. >> Um to Jane Doe, I we stand with you and. also I feel so. >> hurt for you that your trauma had to. become you had to go through this to.

have now this movement start to happen. You should have never had to go through. this. But just also know and I hope she. feels some form of comfort in seeing how. many women are standing there on the. front line with her saying I am Jane Doe. too. And I think this is one of those. steps. So thank you so much for your. time. Thank you so much for flying here. This is a less than 24-hour trip and. then you're back to Cornell and you're. going to fight the good fight and we. will follow along and I know that the.

daddy gang will be loud for you and. whatever you need I am here as an ally. >> Thank you, Alex.