Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

What is up daddy gang? It is your. founding father Alex Cooper with Call. Her Daddy. >> Estair PL. Welcome back to Call Her. Daddy. >> I'm It's a treat for me to be back. Third time. >> I know. I'm so happy. This is the first. time that we've met in person. >> That's right. >> And it feels right. I remember during. the pandemic, I felt like you were my. safe place. I was like, I need you. we. all need you. Talk to me. And we had.

such an amazing We've had such amazing. conversations and today I'm just ready. to get back into it. Um, for anyone who. lives under a rock, you are a renowned. psychotherapist and a relationship. expert. You're also one of the best. couples therapists out there. you focus. on modern relationships, intimacy, um, infidelity, and I think a lot of the. things that you practice and focus on is. going to be very relatable to my. audience today. So, should we just get.

into it? >> Let's Where should we begin? As we say. on the podcast, >> where should [laughter] we begin? I. think a lot of women are really, really. discouraged by the current state of. dating. What do you think is just behind. that? There's a lot of things behind. what's happening to dating. Dating is. the symptom, but maybe one way of asking. is what's going on in the world of. relationships. Okay. Um that is making. dating more complicated. The the world.

of dating itself, romantic consumerism is really. challenging when you are constantly. looking for the perfect and afraid to. settle for the good. When you are. dealing continuously with the paradox of. choice with so many options and looking. for a soulmate on an app and with a. tremendous case of FOMO when the ick. factor is so omnipresent and very very. quick to kick in when we need more.

social skills than we ever needed before. because we are living in such a. contactless reality and we actually. don't have the skills to speak to people. to look at What what is one of the first. things we just did when we saw each. other is touch. You know, we have been. so disembodied. So we looked at each. other, we smiled to each other, we. touched each other and we kind of really. grounded ourselves in each other's. presence so that we can have a. conversation rather than trying to look.

for algorithmic perfection. I completely. agree with everything you just said, but. specifically I think what is very. applicable to my audience is like we're. looking for the perfect. Yes. And we're. so hyperfixated on because there's such. an enormity of options out there because. back in the day our parents never had. the access we have. They didn't know. that there was a guy named Mike in LA. who had a six-pack that they can stalk. Like it was just the people that were in. their proximity. And I would love if you.

could expand a little bit more on like. being inundated with relationship. content online and through pop culture, like how has that warped our idea of. love and dating and what it's supposed. to look like? So the first thing is. where does the perfection come from? Right? many different sources, but one. that comes up immediately is when you. look at your phone, it will tell you. from app to app where to go, what to. listen to, where to eat, what to watch.

next, what to listen for next, and it. gives it to you without any ambiguity. It gives it to you with utter. predictability and perfection. And all. those technologies that we are having in. the palm of our hand are promising to. unbburden us of all the inconveniences. of life. And this is in major part what. is warping expectations between people. because now I want my people that I meet. to be just as predictable and just as. perfect and just as unquestionable and.

just as certain as the responses that I. get in the palm of my hand for every. second question I have. What happens. between people is filled with. uncertainty. It's experimentation. It's. the unexpected. It's the unknown. It's. the surprise. It's the curiosity. That's. what drives relationships with people in. the beginning. And none of that is being. trained when all I need to do is click. on something. And God forbid I would get. lost and discover a whole new landscape.

that I didn't even know existed. A. building I had never noticed. Serendipity, spontaneity, happen stance. Those things produce anxiety rather than. awe and surprise at this moment. Right? It's like people are not as predictable. as these apps are and that is becoming. somehow a negative in our eyes. We're. like it should just be you know black. and white but really that used to be. what was so divine. They are by nature.

unpredictable, flawed, imperfect. And. that you know what happens when you look. for perfection and predictability in. people is that you stop being able to. deal with the messiness of human life. The smells, the bumps, the caretaking, the less shiny aspects of intimacy, i.e. not the six-pack, right? >> Not the six pack. >> Not the sixpack. What do you do when. you're dealing with the messiness of. human life and you've become accustomed.

to always on delivery of your every. delight, you know, perfect pitch that is. before the advice that's even before. we've come to the advice, >> right? Can can we also focus on I love. how you said like the feeling of these. people are going out there and then. there's this anxiety but I think. something so beautiful about first dates. and first experiences or second dates or. third dates is sometimes the butterflies. we feel when we meet someone and there's.

the unknown and again the. unpredictability that shouldn't scare. us. should excite you to some degree or. or the knowledge that when you meet. someone excitement and insecurity go. hand in hand. Of course you're anxious. Of course you're wondering. Of course. you're unsure. Of course you're. trepidacious and you're excited and. you're expectant. It's all of this in a. fantastic soup. It's not a problem. It. is what happens when you have the.

mystery meeting the longing, meeting the. desire, meeting the uncertainty and. meeting possibility, >> right? How can someone tell the. difference though between anxious. butterflies and then when it's actually. a warning sign that maybe something is. off? [gasps]. >> Butterflies are often mixed with. anxiety. That's the thing. It's, you. know, it's part of the soup. Yeah. You.

can't have butterflies that are just, you know, because because the minute you. start to be drawn to someone, let's. explain why butterflies involve anxiety. Because the minute you begin to be drawn. to someone, the minute you start to. experience any any inklings of. attraction or love, you also experience. a fear of rejection, a sense of. insecurity, a question about how much it. is shared and mutual and reciprocal,

and a fear of loss. They go together. You can't experience any love without. also experiencing the fear of losing the. love. So I think that the idea that you. can have it clean without any anxiety is. really taking us down the wrong. direction. >> Yeah. It's like if anything there's. something really beautiful about it. because it means that there are stakes. involved and you could get rejected and.

that's okay. You're putting there. yourself out there. Again, going back to. your Spotify playlist, it recommends the. exact songs that you also will like. because you listen to the song. And then. you go on your app and it tells you the. exact jeans that you should buy because. you bought these last year. And it's. like the unpredictability is actually. something that we should lean into. because there is so much unknown and. there's things to explore about yourself. and that person. But when we are so. focused on figuring them out, it kind of. completely um denies the ability to grow.

and to grow into the relationship if. we're just looking for the answer on day. one. >> Yes. If you want to take out all the. wrinkles from the start, you're in. trouble. Wrinkles are part of experience. and you don't if it's basically taking. out the wrinkles from the start is like. taking out the experience. When do I. know that the butterflies are the sign. that something is opening up and. happening versus a sign that this is. something that may be troublesome? The.

only way you know is context. And. context means that you look for other. signs. Is it all the time? Is it in. writing? Can you have a conversation in. person? Can you act? It's not just you. put yourself out there. Is that of. course you come with your vulnerability. It's part of you. If you're not. vulnerable, you're probably not. interested enough. Just let's put that. out. You know, vulnerability is a sign. that I care that something important is.

happening here. I'm interested. And now. I'm not sure. Are you interested too? Are you interested as much as me? Did. you think about me as much as I thought. about you? You know, I instead of. wondering how many words shall I send. before I show myself to be too needy and. too dependent. No, you know if you put. it out and the other person answers in. kind, you know that something is. happening between us, >> right? And if they don't, it's okay. Like you will find someone else. Let's. say someone finally is like, "All right,

Estair, I am going to approach dating. now. I'm going to be less stressed. I'm. going to allow myself to just move past. that fear of the unpredictable and I'm. going to lean in." I think we've heard. people say, you know, this person checks. all my boxes, right? In your opinion, when is it realistic to have a list of. qualities you're looking for in a. partner? And when does that actually end. up instead limiting you? [gasps]. >> Every time I'm talked, I think about the.

list, the checklist, the boxes, this is. that I always think, do you put as much. emphasis on who you want to be than who. you want to find? I mean, it's like what is this? This is. the consumerism. I come with my. checklist. I sit in front of you in a. noisy bar and I'm going to ask my. questions and see if you check my boxes. That is such an awful experience. And if. you think that in the middle of that. you're going to get goosebumps or some. butterflies in your belly, you're off.

the chart. Seriously, >> it's so true. It's also like. >> who do you want to be? How do you show. up? Who what do you want? It's like so. product, you know? Oh, I'm buy I'm. coming to check if you you fit the. product, >> right? Like I want to get a product. review. Like are you a five stars? That's way like actually so humbling and. I'm I No, [laughter] I was going to say. I'm married and I even was like cuz I. used to do that and I think it's so. honest what you're saying like we all. liquid inward half the time we have.

expectations for people that we don't. even meet ourselves. Like some of the. things I'm I used to. >> Who do you want to be? I mean you want. the person to have this this this. Who. do you want to be? What do you bring? What do you want to offer? What do you. want to share? Who do you want them to. think that they are in the presence of. rather than this one-sided, you know, um. this is that's you know the but the the. the piece that would help a lot with. that Alex is that there and I think that.

that's one of the most off things on the. dating scene is that the dating takes. place in a completely secluded place. away from your life. Yes, >> dating takes place either virtually, maybe at some point you'll finally get. to meet somebody in in flesh and and. basically. at some point if you think something is. really happening here, you'll have the. big reveal and you'll bring this person.

to your life, to your friends, to your. you know to to to present them instead. of bringing the person in your life. I'm. going to whatever. I'm going to hike. tomorrow. I'm going to look for antiques. tomorrow. I'm going to bike tomorrow. Do. you want to join? Are you into this. stuff? I'm going to the movies. I'm. going with some friends. Join us. That. is lower the stakes. >> Lower the stakes. Esther, that is such a. brilliant and yet somehow simple concept. that I don't know why we're not.

>> because I tell you what I'm told. But. that is so vulnerable about your friends. may judge you. Your friends may not like. me but your friends are the people that. know you the most. They will see they. will tell you looks good or they will. tell you no not really you know and then. you decide what you want anyway. But. bring the person in your life if it. doesn't work. My life didn't miss. anything. Otherwise, what happens is three times a. week, I'm out there dating away from the.

people that I really care about and with. whom I actually enjoy myself. >> and then I come back empty-handed. sometimes and I have to report of my bad. dates. >> Estair, we're done with first dates. being alone. Like I'm I'm not kidding. you. as you're talking. I love it. because, you know, it just made me think. of something. I remember when I was. dating, I had so much success when I. would be at a bar or at an event with my. friends. And if I met a guy there and he.

was with my friends and I, I ended up. like we'd have the best night and then. we'd go on a one-on-one date eventually. But it weirdly. >> let all of my kind of my guard like was. down and we were. >> surrounded in your life. >> Yeah. And it was so the stakes were so. low cuz I was like I'm with my girls if. you blend in and then I would watch him. interact with my friends. >> That's right. Data points. So many data. points. >> Guys, I think that Esther Pearl. dissolved. We can just end it right. here. We are no longer going on first.

dates that are just solo at a table. awkwardly. Like bring them when you are. going out with your girls for drinks or. bring them on the hike that you and your. friends are going on. Be like, "My. friends and I are doing this. Want to. meet up with us?" How? And bring some of. your friends. >> That's right. I was going to go do this. You can even do it alone. I was going to. go do this. Would you like to join me? Meet around an activity that is part of. your life where you have a certain. confidence already and you can share. something. You bring, you know, and then. you will see you may, you know, you'll.

come out of the movies, the theater, the. the whatever the show, and you say, "Oh, I have nothing left to say." And then. you say, "It was nice." And then you. still enjoy the show. Or you'll actually. say, "Do you want to continue talking? Shall we go have a drink? Shall we go. have a bite? And it's it's in context. and all those questions about when do. you know will become very very different. if you have a context because this. context gives you a felt sense and a. felt sense is intuitive and it's so much.

more important and accurate to your real. life rather than your checklist of being. like okay I remember I wanted to see if. he does this and you're alone on your. date and you're trying to hit your. checklist like that is. >> where do you live where did you go to. school where did you grow up what do you. like are you applying to be my assistant. or. >> it's a job interview? >> Okay. >> It's a job interview. It's not a it's. not a beginning of a of a story. I mean, you know, relationships are stories. A. first date is the first page of a story. and it will either be a short story or a.

novel. It's interesting because let's. say and I know everyone is obviously. different and every circumstance is. unique but let's say Estair someone is. like okay I am in the dating world I'm. taking all of your notes so far but. could you help me in what traits are. actually important to care about in a. future partner? Like what should someone. really be actually focusing on if. they're looking for a longterm person in. their life? I wish I could give you a.

blanket answer, but it really depends on. you. You know, relationships thrive in. complimentarity. I am a person who is very solid, says. one. I I structure my life. I'm. reliable, but sometimes I wish I was a. little bit more flowy. I wish I was more. spontaneous. I wish I didn't overthink. things. And I welcome someone in my life. that actually is more fluid, is more. spontaneous, is is less, you know, rigid.

like that. And vice versa. That's a. complimentarity. That's very common. If. I can give you basic sets of human. traits. Yes. Find someone who is decent. Number one. Number one, decency. Find. someone who is kind, who enjoys giving, who likes to think about others and. isn't just constantly making sure that. they have the bigger piece on their. plate. Find someone who, for some of us,

it's for someone who can. rejoice, who really can wake up in a. good mood because that's something that. doesn't always happen to me. Find. someone who, if it matters to you, has a. sense of family. Find someone who has a. sense of religion. If it matters to you, find someone who loves to travel if it. matters to you. Find someone who can. tolerate difference. But ask yourself. also, can you tolerate difference, >> right? Like.

look inward. Don't just you know. >> expect. >> because even that question can become a. list too. >> I agree with you. It's almost like you. can't tell people exactly what to look. for because I agree it needs to. compliment you. Is there anything. qualitywise that you actually think we. should start to devalue though as a. society that people are looking too much. for and that's not what we should be. focused on? Yeah. I think that. so much of our pressures at this point. are about focusing on the self and on.

the optimization of the self and on the. self-hacking and on the self fulfillment. and the self-worth and the selfawareness. and the self self and and then even when. you ask what should I look for in a. partner it's what can this partner bring. to me rather than what are each other's. needs that we can cultivate together. It's very different to say a we versus a. you who is going to help me become more.

of myself and make me become the best. version of myself. You know, you live in. a big world. There's a lot of things to. think about besides just me. Call her. Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. I. feel like all anyone in LA is talking. about right now is Coachella and Stage. Coach. And it's making me reminisce on. last year when Lauren, Kristen, and I. went to Stage Coach together. We booked. a great spot on Airbnb that was right. next to the festival grounds and it was. seriously such a game changer for the. weekend. I don't know if you're aware,

Daddy Gang, but it is like 100° all. weekend during these festivals. So, we. were out at the pool literally all day. and when it was time to get ready, everyone had their own bathroom with. great lighting, which is absolutely. crucial for a girls trip. And the house. itself was also super cute for photo. ops. There were like cactuses all over. the backyard, the mountains in the. distance. So, we just took all of our. content before we got to the festival. grounds. And being that close to the. festival was so key at night when the. wind picked up and it was literally.

freezing. We would just run back, be in. our cozy pajamas in a few minutes, and. then just turn on the fire pit for a. little debrief. because the lineup can. be amazing, but coming home to a place. that's cozy after a long day is really. what makes the whole weekend so special. Now that it's spring, it's time to get. the group chat together and start. planning a trip. And one of the easiest. ways to set yourself up for a good time. is booking your stay on Airbnb. Get the. space, amenities, and location you need. to make your stay fun, seamless, and. comfortable. Whether you need a place.

for the friend group or somewhere calm. and relaxing for a solo getaway, you'll. find all kinds of options to help make. the perfect trip on Airbnb. Call Her. Daddy is brought to you by T-Mobile. Okay, Daddy gang. I am starting to think. a night in may actually be the new night. life. Ah, where am I in my life right. now? Okay, I have been working so much. lately that all I want to do at the end. of a long day is hang out on my couch.

There is just nothing better than. getting into comfy clothes, pulling out. some of my favorite snacks, curling up. with Henry and Bruce and Matt. You can. join too, Matt, and doing absolutely. nothing. And on those nights in, T-Mobile has me covered with value that. keeps on stacking up the more I use it. Like streaming benefits and snack perks. that truly deliver. The math is mapping. With so many perks and benefits, T-Mobile is basically making staying in.

a lifestyle. So, you know what? I love. you even more now, T-Mobile. Okay. My. go-to recently has been popping on a. reality TV show, ordering a whole pizza, and hitting next episode all night long. with a side of ranch. Okay. And if you. have T-Mobile like I do, you won't. believe how good staying in can be. Check it out at t-mobile.com/magenta. Status. Disclaimer, streaming benefits. included while you maintain a qualifying.

line in good standing. Let's talk about. friction. Yes. Because I know that you. are passionate about needing to invite a. little bit of friction into our dating. lives. What is the benefit of doing. that? And can you explain what that even. means? >> What that even means? When I said to you. before that our technologies, our. predictive technologies are trying to. remove all the inconveniences, what they're trying to do is present you.

with a very polished life where there is. no friction, no obstacles, nothing that you have to work through. which traditionally has always been seen. as that which gives you a sense of. resilience, that which gives you. experience, that which is necessary for. child development. It's true for little. kids as well. They need friction, they. need to resolve problems, they need to. figure it out, they need to make. mistakes and correct it. So do we. So.

that's friction. Besides that, I'm a sex. therapist as well. And we have a there's. a beautiful formula of Jack Morin, a. major sexologist who that says. attraction plus obstacle equals. excitement or desire. Obstacle is. friction. It makes me want more when I don't have. and I have to reach out and I have to. seduce and I have to be imaginative. rather than it's right in my lap. Well,

and I was going to say I think it's. important too to clarify like what is. the difference between good friction and. bad friction because I don't want any. girls going like, "Oh, wow. We need to. fight. We need to fight to feel the. thrill.". >> No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking. about toxicity. I'm talking about. friction. I'm talking about this that. creates heat. It's really that it's the. ability to tolerate difference. It's the. idea that other people will have very. different versions of what just happened. and they're sitting right side by side.

with you. It's tolerance for conflict. It's rupture and repair. Friction is all. the paradoxes or the contradictions that. we feel in relationships. Attraction and. disgust, care and aggression, rupture and repair, trust and betrayal. These polarities are intrinsic. They are. part and parcel of every relationship. They come and go. They move. You know,

there are moments when you are deeply. trusting and moments where you are. suspicious. There are moments where you. think I can't take another minute of. this and then the next minute you think. I can't take another day without it. It makes me think a little bit and I. feel like we all have those people in. our life where you kind of hear that. friend be like, "Oh, my partner and I. never fight. We never even get in little. arguments like what is your take on. that? >> Trouble on the horizon. [laughter]. >> You're. >> Trouble on the No, because you know.

conflict avoidance. >> or only doing that which we both like. We only see the movies the two of us. like. We only go to the bands the two of. us like. We create sameness. at all cost. You know, at some point it. starts to feel like in order not to lose. you, I ended up losing major chunks of. me. Every relationship and you asked me. before, you know, what are the things. where to look for and I will answer it a.

little differently. I think that one of. the most important tensions for all. relationships, every dating story will. have this is how do I connect to you. without losing me? And how do I stay. connected to me without losing you? In every relationship, you will find. that there is one person that is often. more in touch with the fear of losing. the other and one person more in touch. with the fear of losing themselves.

One person more in touch with the fear. of abandonment and one person more in. touch with the fear of suffocation. And they often meet. You can give me any. list you want. This is not what you look. at when you are a couple's therapist. It's what drew you together has very. little to do with we like the same band. and we like hiking the same mountains. and we both like skiing and outdoors and. none of it or we are foodies. That is. not what is really being played out in. terms of the relationship dynamic. So.

when you never fight, you are trying to. basically smooth out the wrinkles, the. differences, the tensions, the autonomy. because this is how you negotiate. separateness and togetherness. This is. probably the most important task of any. relationship. What should you be trying? What what am. I looking for? You're looking for. someone with whom you can and depends if. you are capable too to negotiate what is.

together and what is autonomous. What. where are we separate? Your friends, your activities, your interests, your. careers, your family and what is ours. What is the we and what is the me? That's what happens in relationships. You can have the most common tastes with. your partner. If these things don't. work, that's where you will have. trouble. >> You know, it's interesting because. >> follow me.

>> Not only do I follow you, I'm already in. my head being like that needs to be. clipped and [laughter] every human being. needs to watch that clip because what. the No, no, no. Like it it's so. real when you're talking about how in. relationships like one is more afraid of. being abandoned and one is more afraid. of losing the sense of self. If everyone just pauses, you I know who. I am in the relationship with my husband. in that dynamic and like I'm sure every. >> Are you the same with him as you were.

with others? Cuz it's not static. >> No. Yeah. >> It changes from relationship to. relationship. It's not like I'm always. in that position cuz my attachment style. is always the same. It changes. >> It changes. >> You need to go through some friction. because you need to see how you two. argue. And I'm not saying arguing is. healthy, but like at some point, human. beings cannot just go through life and. just have no issues. That's just not how. life goes. So it's like the beginning of. relationships, it is sometimes important. to see if you are almost compatible in.

the way that you handle conflict. And I. think a lot of people can be like, "Oh, we're getting married. We haven't had. one issue." Do you think it's concerning. if people have never had one problem and. already like, "We're getting married. We've never fought a day in our life.". Oh, it's just a matter of time. At some. point, they will. They will. But here's. the thing. The research is very clear on. this, Alex. It's really not so much the. conflict itself as the repair. There are.

couples that are way more volatile. They. bicker more, they argue more, it's. faster, it escalates. It's really, can. they make up? And how do they make up? And did they make up just by kind of. smoothing it over or they make up and. they actually are able to acknowledge. what they contributed to the argument? And the repair is more important than. the actual conflict. >> And when you get to repair, how. important is compatibility then in.

communication styles? >> What matters the most is not. compatibility in communication styles. but accountability. It's the ability to. say, "I was threatened and I just lashed. out on you. I just said things that I. wish I didn't say, but when I'm scared. or when I fight, I sometimes don't know. where to stop. I take full. responsibility for this. I realize that. when I said that, I was not paying. attention to what you had said before, to your needs, to what you had asked. from me, to how I let you down." It's.

the ability to take responsibility. without shame. And do you suggest or. again does it not matter? Should repair. happen in the moment or can you wait? >> Great question. So some people can do it. in the moment. Other people need 20. minutes, 2 hours or two days. So if you. are with someone who needs two days, don't start talking in the moment. They're totally disregulated. They can't. listen. They're not yet there. Wait. But. this is what happens is that you have.

one person who needs to make sure that. we don't go to bed. >> upset. >> Upset and the other one who just doesn't. not don't give me one more word or I'm. going to. >> explode. >> Yeah. So this is where you one needs to. learn to engage sooner and one needs to. learn to wait longer. >> Yeah. That's something that I've always. found interesting in the dance of. relationship. >> That's friction by the way. >> And also there has to be a level of. respect, right? Because I remember my. husband and I in the beginning days, he.

would want to handle it immediately and. I would be like, I need a second. That's. right. >> And then we we would both be like, wait, like and then it would we almost need to. find our common ground of like, okay, I. can't go into a hole for 3 days and. ignore you. So, I'm going to we need to. find our middle ground of where we both. can respect each other that you need. some reprieve right now. You can't just. be waiting for 3 days. And also, I. though can't have this conversation in. 20 minutes. So where can you meet in the. middle? Again, that just takes. accountability, right? >> It's accountability and it's. acknowledgment of the differences. Yeah.

>> I mean, it's you're needing the three. days is not because of me. >> You need three days is because of who. you are and how you've learned to calm. down and whatever history you come with. And the the most important piece about. it is not to personalize it. Then I can. say look after a day because I'm not. sure that you like the 3 days. Maybe you. actually would love it if it was just. half a day but you don't know how to do. it because you know you wait you wait. you wait till all the nervous system.

kind of sets back in. You've gone three. times to do sports whatever you needed. to do to kind of you know get yourself. back to ground zero. I could help you. actually. That's the thing. I may. actually be able to tell you, hey, you're not going to lose face and you. don't have to feel like you're giving in. and giving up if you talk to me two days. before and I'm not going to attack you. Can we sit and just look at what. happened here something? >> So, I'll help you with the three days. It's not just the middle cuz it's nice.

to meet in the middle ground. It's that. I have something you don't have, >> right? because I'm not arguing or. fighting with myself. Like there's. another person that has the keys to the. answers of why they acted that way and. why I acted that way. >> Where did you learn to need three days? >> I think that something that would be. very useful for all your listeners is. the typical thing is to say what do you. fight about. rather than what is it that you're.

fighting for? And when you look at what people fight. for, Mark Howard Markman. summarized it really beautifully. He's a. researcher on couples and he said people. fight about a few major thing. The first. one is people fight for power and. control. Whose decisions matter most? Whose needs. get priority? Who gets to decide? Much of our fighting is actually about. power and control. It doesn't matter if.

it looks like it's about money or the. kids or the parents or my activities or. your friends. [snorts] The second thing. we fight about is care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Will you look out for me? Can I rely on. you? And we don't say I fight about trust. We. fight about you didn't call me and you. didn't tell me you were going to be late. and you didn't tell me that you had. visited these people and you didn't. share that with me and and I didn't know.

you tell Chaj GPT this and that you know. care and closeness. And the third one is. respect and recognition. Do you value me. when you didn't invite me to join you? We can talk about how I wasn't included. but the issue is I didn't feel valued. I. don't feel like I'm important in your. life. So power and and control, care and. closeness, and respect and recognition, power, trust and value. That's what most. fights are about.

>> If you get away from all the what you. will actually understand why why people. get so upset. >> It's so [sighs]. >> I'm so happy you're here. I'm going to. say that a million times today. It's so. real because I can already see it. I'm. sure everyone else, Ken, that's. watching. It's like you're you're. venting to your friend and it's like I'm. waiting for him to text me and I'm I'm. it's driving me insane cuz then I found. out he ended up going to the dinner and.

he never even invited me and I just. don't like I don't even understand. I'm. just so over it and I'm done and I like. actually hate him and I'm over. it. And what you're saying is like, okay, slow down for a second because. this is someone you love and get. underneath like what is it that's. actually upsetting you? And that. probably would fall, I would assume, into the category, the last one. Right. >> Totally. >> Where you're just like, you're looking. for the recognition and you want to be. respected and seen and a part of their. life. >> I you want to feel like you mean. something to someone and when you went. alone and you didn't tell me or you.

didn't invite me, you didn't include me, I'm like, you know, mashed potatoes. >> I don't feel what hurts. I don't feel. valued. And I think what you had said. earlier even in the dating that really. applies to this is what's so hard in. conflict resolution between couples is. so much almost a lot of time in no. matter what argument it is also starts. in power in terms of like I don't want. to admit I was wrong here or whatever.

but it also is power in terms of like it. requires you to actually get vulnerable. You know what is the most beautiful. power? One of them. There's so many. But. I have often said to people in sessions, >> I'm trying to think about an episode on. the podcast that that people could go. listen to that kind of instantly speaks. to that where I say the person who. apologizes first is often the person who. has the most power.

>> I love that. >> Do you understand? >> Roll that again. Because we feel the. weakest, right? >> Yes. Exactly. And especially those for. whom this feels weakening to admit, to. acknowledge, to take responsibility, to. say I made a mistake or I was wrong or I. went too far. >> Why do they have the most power? >> Because if I say that to you, it is more. likely that you will say, "Thank you. B, I appreciate this. Three, you feel seen. Four, you realize that.

we're both in this together.". >> Yeah. And um and five, it's not so bad. I can. get over it. because my admission is all you needed. I don't need to, you know, stretch. myself on the floor. It's not and shame. myself and make my is I'm just simply. saying to you. it's this. It's that gesture with my. head. I know. I see. I own it. I take my.

responsibility. And then usually what do. you do? You say, "Well, I wasn't at my. best either." Right? Then they'll meet. you there. >> You meet me there. >> You meet me there. That's power. That's. power, too. Rather than power over. I. was going to say cuz there's such a. difference between I was going to be. like, "Okay, power sounds negative, right? Power sounds like you have. something over people." Cuz I remember. growing up, my mom would always say like. the person who cares the least in the. relationship. >> has all the power.

And it pisses people off when you say. that. They're like, "That's not true.". And it's like, "No, no. The person who. cares the least has all of the power. They don't give a fuck." So, you're. constantly trying to get their attention. and get them to care and get them to and. you're the one that's aggressive towards. and the other person can just sit back. and be like, "I'm chilling. That's toxic. >> Why are you making such a big deal, right? >> You know, what's what's the big deal? Can't you just, you know, and that's. toxic power? That's using power in a way.

that's not fair in the relationship. >> Why is it toxic? >> Because you're. >> What is the tone when you say what you. just said? >> I think it's it's a imbalanced. relationship in a way that feels. manipulative like they're using. >> there's a word for it. >> What. >> contempt? >> What what stands out when you say what's. the big deal? Why you need to to always. overblow things? You always have to make. such a big drama you know just you know.

just relax just chill just relax just. keep it in perspective just just just. meaning what's wrong with you and what's. wrong with you says I have contempt. which is really the number one killer. actually call her daddy is brought to. you by zip recruiter all right so when I. first started call her daddy I made. myself a little dream guest list. And. over the years, I've been really lucky. to check off some incredible names like. Michelle Obama, Kim Kardashian, and.

Cardi B. It all starts though with. putting yourself out there and taking. the chance to reach out. And when people. know you're genuinely interested, I. think there is way more of a likelihood. that they are going to say yes, right? So, Daddy Gang, if you want to get on. someone's radar, sometimes you just have. to make it personal. Send a message, make a call, tell them why you are the. only one they should be talking to. The. same goes if you're looking for a job. Letting an employer know that you're. interested can help you stand out from. other applicants. Zip Recruiter is the.

best way to do this. Matching you with. the right job in literally minutes. And. Zip Recruiter has a new feature that. lets you be seen first. Just tell the. employer why you're interested in the. role and your application jumps to the. top of their list. You actually almost. double your chances of talking to an. employer if you're really interested in. that job. Make sure they know with Zip. Recruiter. Go to this exclusive web. address, ziprecruiter.com/daddy, right now to see what a difference it.

makes in your job search. Again, that's. ziprecruiter.com/daddy. Call her Her Daddy is brought to you by. Ashley. Ashley Lux is an allnew. collection that's changing the meaning. of luxury and inspires your everyday. spaces with premium furnishings at a. surprisingly practical price. Daddy. Gang, these pieces are so wellmade with. quality materials like wood, stone, velvets, leather, and brushed metal. It. feels very next level. But what I love.

most is how easy they make it to. actually make the space feel like you. The Ashley Lux collection has so many. fun accents and decor that you can just. mix and match to your style because your. home should reflect who you are and how. you live, right? For me, I love being. able to host at my house. And there is. nothing worse than hosting a big dinner. where someone is stuck at the end of the. table and can't see or hear half the. group. That is why I have been loving. Ashley Neoline. Hi. They have the most.

beautiful curved wood tables that. everyone can fit comfortably around. They're timeless, sturdy. They come in. this like gorgeous espresso finish that. makes everything just feel a little bit. more elevated. If you're feeling ready. to upgrade your space, it's time to head. to Ashley. Discover the new Ashley Luxe. collection by visiting Ashley in store. or online at ashley.com/luxe. When is it betrayal to go and share too.

much with friends or family about issues. you're having in your relationship? Every biography is a betrayal of someone. else. You cannot tell your story without. telling things about people who are in. your story who didn't ask to be spoken. about. That's a by definition. I mean this is. the era where more people have written. biographies than ever before. Every. person has a biography to write. So a. biography tells my story in the context.

of many relationships with others who. then asked for this story to be told. Every biography is a betrayal. A small. one, but it's a bit. >> Okay. Wait, but Esther, doesn't it it. helps you to some degree process when. you get to. >> Oh, I didn't mean to say therefore you. shouldn't tell. >> You're like, "Oh, [laughter] girl, get. after. >> you." But but you need to know that. that's what we do. And I've look I've. had more than one in this instance men.

in in hedro relationships tell me you. know. if I knew. it's it's about how much my partner my. girlfriend my wife whatever my. girlfriend tells her girlfriends about. us betrayal would be redefined. mind. I think that there is often a sense. among women, girls that that it's not a.

betrayal because I'm talking to my best. friend. Whereas for many people, many men who. are much less likely to share that much. about their girlfriends to their male. friends to if they were to discover all. what she is able to put out there, betrayal would be redefined. And I think. that there is something to think about. that. Now when you talk to your. girlfriends, the question is this. Are. you ever actually saying what you have. done as well? Or are you only talking.

about what he or she or they did to you? And that's where the girlfriends can. come in and say look everything starts. with the name of the other person. Alex. did this and Alex said that and Alex. didn't and you know what Alex and what. have Alex again? Alex Alex Alex at some. point you want to say and where is a. stair in the story and if a stair is not. mentioned and what did you do? You know. I when I see a couple and I see one.

person telling me a story and then when. the other one arrives it's like. everything this one left out is what. this one starts with. But how though then Esther do you. protect the privacy of your relationship. without fully isolating yourself from. your friends and your family? You It's. in the tone. It's in the way you you of. course you come to your friends. I'm. struggling with something. I don't know. what to do. And good friends sometimes. give advice and sometimes really make.

space and listen and just say you will. figure this out. I'm here for you if you. need to. Sometimes I need to tell you. this is what I think is happening now. You need to talk to her. You need to. tell her what's happening with you. You. know, you're dealing with loss. You're. dealing with illness. You're dealing. with children. You're dealing with no. work. You're dealing with loss of your. best friends. Whatever. You need to be. able to to talk. But talking is not the. same as dishing, >> right? And also starting more with I.

statements rather than the constant and. then he did this and then he did this. blame, blame, blame, and I'm the victim. of the other person's doing. >> That is not always the case. >> Interesting. I do find that like. emotional depth and intelligence. I. think sometimes a lot of women write in. just feeling like I really like him in. the beginning. It's been fun, but like. I'm starting to wonder if he's. emotionally intelligent enough and can. go deep with me enough. and I'm starting.

to go to my friends and family when I'm. going through hard things or when I'm. looking to have an intellectual. conversation cuz he can't meet me there. Like, how do you gauge if your partner. is emotionally intelligent enough to. match where you're also at in your life? Cuz that's a very elusive hard. >> by going outside of your own definition. Your def what you think is emotionally. intelligent may not be his vocabulary. And maybe the day something happens to.

you, he will show up and he'll deliver. and he'll be there for you without many. words. We have many vocabularies. Words is one. And we are girls are often. more trained to be in verbal vocabulary. We talk, you know, partly because we've. been taught to distrust our bodies. So. we became masters of talk intimacy. But. intimacy can be experienced in a lot of. different ways that don't involve the. only words. And by the way, we talk with.

our bodies for 18 months before we utter. the first word. So our mother tongue is. often physical. Emotional intelligence and intellectual. compatibility is different things. You. know, um if you if it's very very. important for you to be with someone. with whom you can have these meaty. conversations, know that upfront. know. that upfront. If you say discussing what. how I should handle my mother is not. something that I do talk about with my. boyfriend because I don't think that.

that his advice then go to your. girlfriends. Do not think that one. person can give you what an entire. village should provide. A boyfriend is wanting a boyfriend. A. girlfriend if you're a girl is wanting a. girlfriend. We need a community. You. need to diversify. Better relationships, stronger relationships are often. diversified. You know exactly when I. have this kind of issue or this kind of. interest. That's not where I go. I have.

my friends with whom I I share those. things and I have my friends with whom I. talk about those things. That is not. what I do with my partner. And that is. okay. >> It's okay. [sighs and gasps] Okay. Let's talk about cheating. [laughter]. We're back girl. Let's get into. cheating. Everyone's oh so favorite. topic. That's right. When there is. infidelity, >> I think as of recent in because this. didn't obviously used to be it like you. know in in previous generations, but.

there is an expectation now it feels. that the relationship has to end if. there is infidelity. Especially when the. woman is cheated on, there's a lot of. shame from other women being like you. have to leave. You don't respect. yourself. Get the out of that. relationship. Why do you think there is so much shame. on a person staying and should there be. that level of shame? >> I love the question because um because. it is probably one of the most important. changes that took place between your.

grandmother and you. You know when marriage was a onestop. enterprise from which you could not get. out. then you had no choice but staying. Everything changed with divorce with the. democratization of divorce with no fault. divorce and with women being in the. workforce so that they can actually take. care of themselves and not worry about. the destitution and the loss of their. children.

And now that you can leave, you should go. If you stay, it becomes a. sign of no no self-esteem, not no. self-confidence, weakness, the opposite. of what it used to be. The fact that you. actually can forgive or can rebuild or. that not every infidelity is actually a. sign that your relationship is over and. that staying and reconnecting and. rebuilding the trust is actually a sign. of strength rather than weakness has.

[clears throat] really become a. challenge and the younger you go the. more this takes place. This is the. belief system of the moment. And why do. you think, although I feel like this is. a very obvious question, I just have to. ask you cuz I want your opinion. Like. why do you think women. disproportionately. bear the shame of staying? Cuz there are. men who stay after getting cheated on, you know. >> Yes. That is very cultural. When I work. in Mexico or anywhere south of the.

border, that is not the case. You only know it more from the women. But you know when a woman stays and is. quiet about it, you may be sure that the. silence of the man is even bigger. What kind of a man are you that you. would stay? With a woman, nobody says, "What kind of a woman are you?" We just. say, "What kind of a low self-esteem. woman are you?" But we don't challenge. the whole constitutional element called.

woman. We just think about her strength. of character. With him, we say, "What. kind of a man are you that you let your. wife? You couldn't control your wife do. those things and you still choose to be. with her. You're not a real man. So, it's misleading to think that this. is the pressure is more on women. The. pressure is more overtly on women, but. that pressure is usually even bigger on. men, >> right? because it's emasculating.

>> Yes. >> What conversations. do you think need to take place in order. to make the relationship work after. someone has cheated? Because I know you. meet with couples and you do help repair. relationships. So I spent 10 years. studying infidelity, wrote state of. affairs about it and um and and began to. really I I have a list of 150 questions. really that it wasn't just one but I. think the most important.

set of questions come from this. distinction. Try not to go for the facts. Where were. you? When did you do it? How often did. you do it? Did you do it standing? Did. you do it lying? Did you keep your. clothes on? Did you bring them to the. house? Did you do go for the meaning? What did it mean for you? Why do you. think you did this? And what were you. thinking about us as this was happening? And do you want me to forgive you? Or do.

you think I actually would be more. respected by you if I didn't forgive. you? Do you think you are forgivable? Would you have accepted something like. that from me? Go for the investigative. questions rather than the detective. questions. >> Right? For the meaning, not the fact. >> For the meaning, not the fact. Because. it's in the meaning that you will also. understand did it have anything to do. with you or with your relationship or. did it have absolutely nothing to do. with you, which is hard to believe, but. is actually a lot of the time the case.

>> Really has nothing to do with you. Yes. To do with the fact that I felt lousy. about myself, that I felt lonely, that I. didn't really feel like you were giving. me enough attention or that that I. thought, you know, suddenly somebody's. laughing at my jokes again and you know, but is that then inadvertently kind of. about the other person like what drives. someone to cheat? Let me tell it to you. in one sentence that that to me became a. real sometimes.

I people go to look for the gaze of. another not because they're looking for. another partner but they're looking for. another self. not that they want to leave the person. that they are with but they want to. leave the person that they have. themselves become. oh what they're dealing dealing. with. Is there depression? Is there. loss? Is there grief? Is there aging? Is. there whatever issues inside is the way.

that they lost themselves into, you. know, they forgot who they are and all. of that. And that's what they are. reclaiming. And their sense is that they. can't reclaim it in the same place where. they lost it. But it's not the other. person's fault that they lost any of it. It's also so hard though because you're. like, yes, it may not be about you, but. it impacts you obviously so deeply and. it's almost I wonder for people have you. found when you're in these moments and. you're talking to these couples, >> is it more infuriating for the partner.

that got cheated on to be like, >> I didn't do like this is all about you. I couldn't like it wasn't even cuz like. I wasn't like having enough sex with. you. Like there's nothing I can change. You just were going to do this no matter. what. >> You were into women. you were into. >> which is easier for someone to. >> depends who. So I think the most. important piece that you're saying here. is that every thinking about infidelity. in a relationship is a dual perspective. What it meant to you and what it did to. me.

So the first thing in phase one is I. need you to know what it did to me. You. don't go instantly for what it meant, what it did to me. how you hurt me, how. you deceived me, how you lied to me, how. you betrayed me, how you had duplicitus, all of that. And do you feel bad about. that? Do you experience guilt or. remorse? If I don't get that, there's. nowhere to start. Even if you had good. reasons for doing what you did, you need. to be able to know what it meant, what. you did to me with it, especially if it.

has nothing to do with me. Even more so, >> do you find when you've done couples. therapy that the person who cheated is. usually capable of meeting the partner. there? >> If they don't, then you have a bad. that's a bad sign. If they don't and if. they only justify and they you know, but. those are also people who typically will. say it's because of you. [laughter]. >> You're like there's patterns here. >> You know, that kind of goes together. So. generally I give you an out because I'm. telling you even if you had good reasons.

and you don't feel guilty about what you. did, you need to be able to feel guilty. for what it did to your partner. >> Have empathy. >> Have empathy and take responsibility. It's both. It's always the empathy and. the accountability. It's two parts. And. then. what are you doing to give value back to. your relationship? You now have to prove. to your partner because a betrayal is a.

devaluation of the other person. I. didn't think of you. I didn't care about. what it would do to you. I put myself. first. It's all of that. What are you. doing now to redeem the relationship? And that's on you. And that one of the. main ways you do it is that instead of. waiting for me to ask you another. question, did you did you come to this. restaurant? Did you take her here? Did. you go there, you are the one who say. when we pass in front of the restaurant. and we drive there and you say we didn't. come here and you preempt me because.

what you think is that all my questions. is because I want to make your life. difficult. That's not the case. I. question you a hund times the same. question because what you did has just. shattered my reality and I don't trust. myself anymore because I thought I knew. my reality and now I think like. everything I thought was real was. actually possibly not. So I come back to. ask you the same thing cuz I need to. kind of reconstitute my reality. That's. what I'm doing with you. It's like must.

be so hard too cuz I could see the. person that cheated wants to move. forward but the other person is like I. need you to know I'm actually if I'm. deciding to move forward I'm not. actually trying to hold you against the. fire forever of being like did you come. to this restaurant but I would love if. you could meet me there and trying to. just fill in the gaps for me so I don't. have all these question marks. >> If you think of it at that moment and. you tell me then I learn to trust you. again. That's actually where the trust. gets rebuilt because now I'm not.

thinking that I'm the only one who cares. about what happened. I'm the only one. who's hurt. I'm the only one who thinks. that we've just taken a big hit in our. relationship. I know you're in it with. me. And that allows me to then think. about something else. Even as. uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can. be from the person who cheated, that is. the beginning of repair. >> sometimes. But sometimes before you ask. a question, h and this I'm going to say. to all our viewers here, ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your.

question? Or do you want your partner to. know that you have the question? >> Give me an example. >> Did you fall in love with her? Did you. think about leaving me? Did you hope I would never find out? >> Wait, what if we do want to know those. questions? I'm like, did he? Well, that's the thing. Do you want to know. the answer to your question? Because. then you have to deal with the. consequences of knowing. I think I would. want to know if someone had fallen in.

love if if my husband cheated on me and. I think I would need to know like are. you in love with her? Cuz then like we. have to be done, right? Go be with her. >> That's you, >> right? Some people don't want to know. >> But another person in very different set. of circumstances, >> I would ask. >> Yes, >> I would need that. >> Fair enough. Cuz that for me would just. be like, >> "But you just answered me. I need to. know because I'm prepared to deal with. the consequences of knowing.". >> I see. And some people would be like, "I. don't want to know because no matter the.

answer, I'm willing to work through. this.". >> I just did an episode on on my podcast, a 25 year affair. He has. >> 25 years. >> Yeah. So that's not necessarily for for. our viewers here, but it is maybe your. parents. >> Oh Okay. And she is clear that she. doesn't want to leave. because she's also very clear that they. actually had a very good marriage. throughout those 25 years. And that is. true too. And things are not so black. and white. And it is not my job to tell.

this person nor any friend's job to tell. this person and talk about the shame. because 25 years you have a the she. doesn't want the family to know because. she doesn't want them to pity her for. staying with him and she doesn't want. them to be angry at him because then she. can't love him if they're all despising. him. So she's not carrying the secret. about the secret, >> right? And the shame it that's so. >> and we don't have we can't be so.

judgmental about that. >> No, we can't. It's like I've had people. on the show before that have come on and. talked about staying after cheating and. the way the internet has just t like. torn these women apart and it's like but. it's their life and everyone's like well. you don't respect yourself and you and. it's like but do you know that? Do you. really? You don't know that this person. may have done so much work within that. relationship to repair it. Like why are. you so triggered? It's her life.

>> Look, everything on where should we. begin was to say to people, we don't. really know what's happening in the. private lives of other couples. >> That's all. >> And it's very easy these days because. you can anonymously state your opinions. on every platform you want without any. consequence. Is there Esther a. timeline. in terms as a couple's therapist that. you're like repair. should fall within a little bit of this.

timeline? If not, like we you can't keep. going back and forth of like you. cheated. I need these answers and we're. five years down the line or can it just. be forever? >> No. No. I think I think yeah, you can be. forever but you will be stuck in a. marital cell. you know, or a relational. cell of any sort. No, I think that. sometimes if if you can't accept it, if. you can't learn to live with it, if you. can't find a place for it in your life,

then you may need to make a decision. Or. if you live with someone and you've done. all the repair and all the showing up. that was necessary and your partner is. still coming back to you every day, every time you're five minutes late, you. may need to think about that. What do. you want to do? So no, I don't think. people need to remain stuck in misery, you know, and and in blame cycles all. the time. But at the same time, for some. people, they still prefer that,

you know, and um and you make sense of. it, you understand why they prefer that, you understand the stories and the rel. the childhoods they've had, etc. Um it's. it's very important for us not to become. um the public square. that oozes with um with judgment about. as if we know when we don't we don't. know if people are also taking care of.

elderly or sick children or there other. reasons. I love that too, just even to close out. on that cheating chapter for anyone. listening. Like we all have those people. in our life that whether it's your. sister or your friend or whoever that. stays. There is understandably a anger. within you as someone who loves them. because you are protective of them and. you you think I want better for them.

But again, we all know the extreme level. of intricate detail that goes into why. we are who we are that no one will ever. understand even if you explain so many. times like you're living in your own. body with your own trauma and your own. history. And so as much as you say you. want better for them, if they genuinely. are saying to you this is what they want. at some capacity, you have to also. relinquish control of trying to dictate. other people's lives because what does.

it affect you? So there are two parts of. the what they want that I think are. often not spoken up. [snorts]. It's one thing to think you are not. trustworthy, but it's another thing to. doubt your own self-rust, your own. self-confidence. And the idea that you could have made a. bad decision, that you made a bad. choice, that the deal, the bargain that. you struck with yourself, that you were.

going to be with somebody who would. never do such a thing to you, that you. purposefully didn't stay with the person. with whom you had much more passion and. much more intensity. You chose someone. who was safe and sable and stable and. you thought that person will never cheat. on me. My ex did that and then this. person does it. And then you have to. deal with your own reckoning. So that's. one. The second one is that sometimes. you stay not because you're weak and. because you let the other person roll. all over you, but because you're. actually silently admitting to yourself.

that you know that you contributed in. some way, too. I mean, the loneliness is. one of the most important reasons why. people seek connection elsewhere. Call. Her Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the. all-in-one finance app where you can. bank, borrow, and [music] invest. Nobody really explains how your money is. supposed to work for you, right? You. just put it into a savings account and. assume that's enough, right? But daddy. gang, the average bank savings rate is. 0.39%. in interest, which basically means.

you're only earning pennies on your. savings when it could be doing so much. more. And that is where SoFi comes in. With SoFi's high yield checking and. savings, the money sitting in your. savings account right now can earn over. eight times the national average with. eligible direct deposit. And there is no. account fees or overdraft fees, so you. get to keep more of your money. You can.

also get your paycheck up to two days. early. And when you sign up with. eligible direct deposit, you can earn up. to $300. welcome bonus, which we absolutely love. to see. Okay, so if you're ready to get. more out of your money, sign up for SoFi. checking and savings at. sofi.com/callerdaddy. Sofi checking and savings is offered. through SoFi Bank NA member FDIC. Terms. apply. Let's talk about intimacy. What do you do? Because I truly believe.

this is one of the biggest most. prominent issues in every single. relationship. Not every single, but a. majority is like when you and your. partner have different ideas. of intimacy, of how much you want it, of. how often, like. >> physical intimacy, >> phys physical intimacy, like. >> touch, affection, touch, affection, sex, like. >> what do you do when you're on different.

pages in a relationship with that? I think that the interesting thing is. that people seem to be talking about sex. with everybody, but the least is with. the person they're actually having sex. with. And in the beginning, you don't want to. talk about it because you don't want to. talk about it. What's the, you know, and. then you don't want to talk about it. because you don't want to jinx it. And. then you don't want to talk about it. because you didn't talk about it before. And then I mean it's just like you know. and then you only talk about it when. there is crisis for a lot of people in.

in by the way connecting it to the. previous question infidelity becomes the. moment where people start to talk about. a lot of things that they put under the. rug for a long time. and finally you know the hits the. fan. So now we start to discuss all our. grievances, our resentments, our. longings, our disappointments, our. unfulfilled needs etc etc. And it's like. had you talked about that, no, maybe it. wouldn't have gotten there. >> No. And monogamy and all of those.

issues, it's like, you know, um and and. more so in straight couples actually, you know, especially around monogamy and. questions like that and exclusion and. boundaries and all of that. So then. there is what do we talk about? What is. candid communication, you know, around. physicality? It's even I touch you. Do you like it? I. saw just saw your twitch, you know. Do. you want me to continue? Shall I stop. instead of guessing? They seem to like.

it. They don't seem to like it. I don't. know. You know, I do. They don't. respond. Is it because of me? Is it. because they're tired? Is it be, you. know, okay, I won't do it anymore. Ask, check in, talk. Sometimes you may. get unpleasant answers. That's okay. So. that's the first thing. Then you have. discrepancy of desire. You know what. happened there? I think that there is a big difference. between sex and eroticism.

between doing the act for which you may. do a lot and feel very little and doing. very little for which you may feel a lot. which is the erotic that involves your. imagination touch meaning what why the. experience of it rather than just the. act of it. It's not just sex is not just. something you do. It's a place you go. It's where a lot of things happen there. So what happens to you? That's a. question. Where do you go? Why do you. hold back?

What ignites you? What blocks you? Is it. on your mind? Is it not on your mind? Is. there something that has been unpleasant. that you've never talked about? Does it. hurt and you never say anything? In order to want sex, it needs to be sex. that is worth wanting. And many times. women, girls want it less, not because. they're less interested in it, but. because it's not the sex that they want. It's not what they're looking forward. to. So, how much are you able to express.

that? Sometimes you do it in writing. Sometimes you do it by playing a game. Sometimes you There are lots of ways. that people learn to become more at ease. talking about the very topic that they. spend their entire childhood learning. not to talk about. I mean, let's be facing that too. You. take a subject on which that has. constantly been hidden and suddenly you. need to be able to be all eloquent. about. So that's not so easy. It's. difficult. It's so difficult and it's.

that's such a great point even to just. ease all of our minds. Like I understand. that it is sometimes really hard and. awkward and to talk about it with your. partner because sometimes from what I've. experienced in the past and what people. have written into me is like it just. feels like if I approach this it's going. to come off like I'm not happy and then. it's going to be so awkward the next. time we go to have sex because he's just. going to be thinking about like well you. literally just complained that you're. like not enjoying it and it's like no.

the way that you approach the. conversation dictate so much of how it. goes. >> The way you do it, you know, I wrote. mating in captivity 20 years ago all. about what is desire in relationship? How do we sustain it? Then I did the. desire bundle. It's a whole course with. these kinds of questions. And one of the. things I understood is one of the main. shifts that we as women need to do is. instead of saying I don't enjoy it is to. say I would enjoy it a lot more if I.

very much like when you do and I would. love it if you did more. Go with what. you ask for. Women have always learned. to say what they don't like when it. comes to sex. They have not been. necessarily trained to actually speak. about their wishes, their needs, their. preferences, their likes. Go to your. partner, male, female, them, and say, you know, I like when I would love if it. would please me a lot if you could do.

that. That's a way to not have the other. person the next time saying, oh I. don't want to approach you because. you've just told me that you really. don't like, >> you know, and now I'm lost my entire. sense of confidence. I thought you liked. it and um. >> cuz you faked it. >> That I love that so much too because I. think it's very relatable for anyone. listening where you're in a situation. where you become so comfortable with. your partner in every aspect of life and. then this thing over here that's one of. the most important aspects of your. relationship you never talk about. So.

then it does get awkward because the. person that's holding on to not being as. fulfilled by it. I understandably the. other person's like, "How long have you. been feeling this way?". >> That's right. like, "Holy. >> right? What did I not know? How did I. miss it?" You know, you that's a form of. lying, too. Sometimes, by the way, >> that is a betrayal, too. For six years, you haven't said a thing to me cuz what. is what what are they supposed to do? >> Or you've been fantasizing about someone. else or about or you've been not liking. it and and and and make and pretending.

to me. That sometimes hurts no less than. you've been because you've been. elsewhere. Whether you've been elsewhere. alone or you've been elsewhere, I feel like you have just, you know, I. thought I was with you in this and I've. just discovered that I was by myself. Let's talk about codependency. >> Yeah. >> Um, when you're in a serious. relationship, understandably, your lives. become fused together, right? You do so.

many things together. You're living. together most of the time. What are some. signs though that you have gotten. yourself into a situation that is fully. codependent? When you are cold, I'm not instantly. cold. You've got your own body. temperature. And I can say, "Oh, that's. interesting." I can't say, "How can you. be cold? I'm not cold. Why should you be. cold? I'm I'm the thermometer." When.

you're hungry, I'm not immediately. hungry. when you're tired or when I'm. tired, you're not on instantly tired. We. have a different system. But somehow when you're upset or when. you're sad or when you're anxious or. worried, that instantly makes me anxious. because your feelings are my feelings. If you're unhappy, that makes me. unhappy. Or I think that you're unhappy. because it's me. What did I do? What did.

I do? What's wrong? So I use the temperature and the hunger. and the tiredness because people. immediately understand it. When it's. physical they understand where I stop. and where you start. We are two separate. people. We are close. We are not fused. We are not that in meshed that what. happens to me happens to you. But when. it comes to the emotional level for many. of us that is not how we grew up either.

We grew up with somebody who wanted. their feelings to become our feelings, their needs to become our needs. And so. we have not known where to know where is. the line where I stop and you start. That's where codependency lives. If someone is sitting here being like, you know what, Estair, there's a chance, there is a really good chance that I am. in a codependent relationship and I do. like love my partner and I think we've. just like fallen into this and it's. really it's not toxic by choice like it.

just happened. What are some steps that. you can take within your relationship to. reconnect with yourself and build back. your individual identity while still. remaining in a relationship? I think the first thing you do uh is. what belongs to you and what belongs to. them. Don't personalize. It's a strange thing. It's what you said before, you know, somehow sometimes it's even worse if it.

has nothing to do with you. It's like I. would rather be part of a bad story than. not be part of the story at all. Cast. me, please. [laughter] That's like. literally the entire internet. They're. like this isn't my life. This isn't my. situation, but I'm in it. And it's like, wait, what? >> You know, it's like it's not your story. And and if when and you know sometimes. what it means because a friend can tell. you something and you don't instantly. think it's you. >> Why do people personalize it though? >> Because there are only two relationships.

that really mirror each other. The one. you had with your family or your. original caretakers, caregivers, and the. one you have in your romantic. intimacies. Those two match. People can tell you I. don't have this with any of my friends. and I believe them. I don't you don't. I'm sure you know to maintain that. differentiation is what we call this. that there are two people here and when. one person feels something the other. person can feel for them but they're not. feeling the same thing as them. I stare.

I could talk to you for 10 hours. I am. so happy that you came today because I. needed and I know the daddy gang needed. all of this. I think even from the. >> You still called him the daddy gang. >> Daddy gang. Oh, they're still the daddy. gang girl. >> I remember the first time you know, right? Oh, wait. I remember the first. time you said it and you were like, "Daddy gang, listen to me." And I was. like, [laughter] "As Prell just. acknowledged the Daddy Gang." That was. Oh my That was everything. And it still. is. Um I am going to go back and listen. to this and like take notes. I have so.

many thoughts. I have so many episodes I. want to make from this episode. Um, you're so wise and you're so brilliant. and you're so warm and generous with. your time and I just can't thank you. enough for taking your time cuz I know. you're so busy to like sit down with me. and give us and impart all of your. wisdom on the Daddy Gang and myself. I. care about it and I see people. struggling. more and more and I also know that there.

is nothing that matters more in our. lives. You know it's like you have daddy. gang I have the quality of your life is. determined by the quality of your. relationships and everything else. follows from there. >> I can't thank you enough. This pleasure. to be here. >> Oh there's so we can do another episode. soon. We have so many topics we could. have covered. I'm like, I know we went. even for longer than I expected, but um. thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And. congratulations on all of your success. I. >> love just watching you and the wisdom.

and all the things that you have given. to society truly. And like thank you. Thank you for always coming and stopping. by and giving me your time. >> Anytime. >> [music]. [music].