Dr. Orna Guralnik: Couples Therapy 101

What is up daddy gang? It is your. founding father Alex Cooper with Call. Her Daddy. >> Dr. Orna Gerolnik, welcome back to Call. Her Daddy. I am in shock that it's been. what I think it's three plus years, right? >> Unbelievable. I I I sort of didn't feel. like it was 3 years. I It feels like a. year and a half ago, >> right? Yeah, >> I guess it's also because like we do.

stay connected and we do communicate. through email which makes me so happy. Um, but we haven't literally seen each. other in three plus years, which is. bananas to me. To anyone who is new. here, Daddy Gang, Orna is a psychologist. and psychoanalyst, and she is the star. on the docu series couples therapy, where you counsel real patients about. their lives in their coupled dynamic. Um, and a new season is coming out. >> Yes.

>> And Matt is screwed because when a new. season of couples therapy comes out, I. go MIA. I sit in my room and I binge the. entire thing in one sitting. So, thank. you. >> Okay, you have to explain to me how you. process all of that information like in. one binge. >> I think it's because I get so invested. in these people's lives and I want to. know like are they going to stay. together? Are they going to progress? like what is the trauma that they're. about to uncover. And like I think it. feels like the most real show I've ever.

watched. Like you're so incredible at. extracting information from people in a. way that makes them feel comfortable, >> but also like you fall in love with. these people, you know, and I love that. we get to see their home life and we get. to see them as like real humans and it's. not just this like fake facade of like a. fun show to watch people talk about. trauma. >> Yeah. >> So I'll be binging. I'm very, very. curious to talk to you after you watch. the show. >> Caller Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money.

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just like what that has allowed me to. embrace in my life maybe where people. who were raised in a home that like. weren't as open about therapy. It has. more of like a negative connotation and. stigma. >> But couples therapy, I feel like. everyone now is like, "Oh my gosh, get. into therapy. It's the best thing." But. couples therapy still has this negative. connotation for couples. Why do you. think there's such a big stigma around. it? >> Well, I think first of all, there's this. I don't remember if we talked about it. last time, but there's this like really.

intense firewall around couples in. general. Well, people do not like to. share the fact that they're having. struggles and trouble in their coup's. relationship with other people. there's. some need to kind of preserve a certain. kind of. um some kind of facade of what a couple. is like especially when people get. married. Um. so in that sense it's not only the. couple's therapy, it's just the idea. that couples are having trouble is very.

scary for people. They don't want to. talk about it. They don't want to expose. it. Um, it's almost like they're calling. in bad spirits. >> if they talk about it. >> It's a good point. And I also think. there's a. fear of if you share too much in a. vulnerable moment, then when the next. day you're fine and you're at the park. and you're smiling, you almost feel this. shame of like, "Oh, I'm embarrassed and. I I feel like I can't recover from what. I shared." Like I definitely had moments.

in the very beginning of my relationship. with Matt where like I would share with. a friend if we had a fight and then I. felt a little awkward because I'm like. well we're still together but like we. worked through it and and then the. friend is is almost like wanting to. check in on you and you kind of don't. want to keep bringing it up. So it's. like there's this like social element of. you don't need to they don't see. everything. >> right. >> and when you share the bad they also. don't. >> you don't want to leave that bad. impression. >> and also you you're responsible you have.

another person's trust in your hand. >> Yeah. >> So talking about it it's a little bit. like does your partner have the consent. if have they given the consent to it's. complicated. How does someone know if. they should start couples therapy with. their partner? >> Funny people ask me that. Um I'm not of. the of the school that believes that. everyone should be in couples therapy. and it's always good. I I don't think. so. Um I think there's a certain kind of.

window in which coup's therapy is a good. idea. If you're in a relationship and. you feel like there's a certain kind of. pattern that feels destructive and not. like not a growth pattern that keeps. repeating and you and your partner are. trying different ways to change it and. nothing's changing, you feel like you're. kind of stuck and whatever you're doing. is just either repetitive or making. things worse. That's a good time to. bring in a third person and and and try. to get some perspective on it. Do you.

feel like if someone comes to you and is. like, "I'm terrified he's going to. cheat." And you're like, "Well, has he. given you any reason to that he's going. to cheat?" And she's like, "No, but my. past and whatever," then it's like, "Would you ever be like, "So, you. probably need to go to individual. therapy.". >> Right. >> Okay. Yes. Cuz it's like that that's not. a good idea to go to couples therapy in. that moment, >> right? Before anything bad happens, >> right? I mean, but people sometimes do. that. It's like they think of it as like. premarital counseling. Like tell me how. to like avoid all the problems that life.

is going to present me with. And it's. like there's no way life's going to. present you with problems and patterns. are going to emerge and you can't like. >> protect yourself against it. It's life. It's like go in and live it and and when. you need to get someone to help you. And. then on the other end of things, if. people wait too long, >> sometimes it's too late. I mean, it's. it's a very sad thing. But, you know, I. I see sometimes couple that come in. after years and years of slogging it and. and kind of avoiding the problem or.

repeating issues and by the time they. come in there there's just like not. enough goodwill left in them, not enough. love or not enough hope and as much as. they try, it's really hard to resurrect. the relationship. So, >> that's interesting. >> So, that's kind of the window for me. >> Okay. What if someone's sitting here. listening ora and is like I want to go. to couples therapy so badly but my. partner refuses and has no interest like. >> common how do you deal with that there's.

one thing which is to get over the hump. of starting therapy which often one. person is more resistant and more scared. of doing that. >> um and that getting over that particular. hump of just the beginning is not I. don't think it's a big deal I mean I I I. can tell people look just like ask your. partner give it a try or barter, you. know, say something like if you come. with me to couple's therapy, I'll offer. this for you. I'll I'll go your way in. some other way. You know, we can go like.

take that trip I've always refused to do. or I don't know. >> Yeah. So, getting people through the. door is not that hard. But then it's the. job of the therapist to make sure that. both people feel like. it's a safe place. It's a place where. both of them can get something out of. it. >> Because I think what often people are. afraid of is that they're going to be. dragged into a therapist's office and. they're going to be ganged up on and. everyone's going to try to force them to.

give up something that matters to them. to change in a way that they don't feel. is right for them or it's not going to. be for them. And you know, the the job. of the therapist is to make sure that. you're really helping the couple, not. one person. And I think once two people. feel like they're really being heard and. that they both have something to gain. from it, they're going to want to stay. >> Yeah. I think that's what is a huge. misconception about couples therapy from.

the person that is not wanting to go and. is kind of reluctant. Like I think so. many people are like, I'm literally. going to get attacked. Yeah. And I guess. there if you could like explain to. people maybe that are listening like. what can they expect in couples therapy. because you're right. I think people are. terrified of it. I think that the person. that sets it up the other person is like. oh there you guys have a plan and I'm. not in on it and you guys are going to. try to like push me into a corner. like. how would you explain it to someone who.

has never done it but is a little. trepidacious about going into it but is. like or no what what am I going to walk. into? >> That's a really good question. Um, I. think what I would say to people is like. think about. therapy, about couples therapy as a. place where you have the chance to. really imagine what you want out of the. relationship. and to have in the therapist.

an ally of the relationship. Someone who. can help you and your partner get to. something that you actually want. together. Meaning. it's not a situation where anyone should. feel cornered. I mean there are moments. when people are going to face difficult. things about themselves and be asked to. grow and expand and and maybe give more. than they're used to. But the ultimate. idea is that you're you're there to.

gain. You're there to gain something. that matters to you. And if that's not. happening in therapy, you're not in the. right place. I think that's incredible. to hear though because I think anyone. that hasn't been raised around therapy. being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to. even conceptualize because you're. >> picturing someone staring at you judging. you, >> right? >> And that is intimidating because.

vulnerability is intimidating in the. first place. And to have someone that's. like a specialist, I could see someone. who's not aware of how a therapist. actually acts towards you could be like, "Oh, this is going to. judge me and it's going to tell me I. have all this trauma and painful.". >> Yes. >> And why are we opening all this up? I'm. fine right now. >> Yeah. >> And it's like, well, >> you're fine until the next fight starts. And then you go back to your patterns. because of whatever happened in your. childhood when you were in your home, the way your parents treated you that. you like, it's all connected. like why.

people don't go for example to have a. mammogram or a colonoscopy that they're. both like afraid that it's going to be. painful. >> fear. >> and they're afraid of like what they're. going to find out and that is not what. happens in therapy. >> So true. >> It's it should feel I mean it's not like. you know Luna Park. It's not like fun. fun but it should feel like an enriching. good experience of like. >> being heard understanding someone else. kind of in a richer deeper way. There's.

clarity. >> Yeah. And truth. >> Yeah. So, I'm curious. I feel like a. huge part of the show is. >> people come to you and are trying to. learn how to manage conflict. I mean, I. feel like that's every relationship. How. do we fight? How do we communicate? How. are we going to handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see. people making when arguing with their. partner? Um there's. people I don't know if to call it a.

mistake but I think where conversations. go wrong where conflict goes wrong is. first of all just on the simple level of. um level of agitation. like again like I was talking earlier. about like a window like a good window. there's a good window in which decent. conversations can happen. >> and that's when you're not either too. upset or too activated or too wounded. that you can't actually process and then. [clears throat] the conversation is not. a real conversation. It's just like.

either a crying, screaming, whatever. match. Um. >> and on the other end, you can people can. feel so um shut down or hopeless that. they're not really engaging there. There's a they're withdrawing from the. conversation. So, so the the. maybe the most basic thing for people. for a good conversation, for good. conflict would be to make sure you're in. the right zone. >> You're not too shut down and you're not.

too over whatever agitated. >> Yeah. >> The other. big kind of still tactical. issue is and and this is it might seem. just tactical, but it's actually pretty. deep. Are you noticing when you're busy. trying to convince your partner of. something and when are you actually. trying to understand. >> them? Shots fired.

>> Yeah. [laughter]. [gasps]. >> Right. >> It's huge. It seems like it should be. simple, right? >> But it's huge. And I see it in my. couples. I actually just had a session. with a couple this morning um where they. kind of realized that difference and. what it how it will change things if. they really move into deep listening. mode rather than convincing convincing. >> right. >> and it changes everything. >> It does because it's like when you're in. those moments you almost have blinders.

on where you're like I will get him to. understand my point hell or high water. Yeah. and he's on the other side being. like I'm need her to understand what I'm. saying and so you're just like hitting a. wall and it's bouncing back at you and. you feel crazy and you're like no why. don't you hear me they're like and then. it's like if you can get to a better yes. >> you're literally nothing is penetrating. >> it's like people get increasingly. frustrated both sides get increasingly. because it's not a conversation.

>> it's not on the show you say and this is. kind of what we're talking about but I. think this is like a huge thing for my. listeners that they always write in. about. You talk about how there is. usually so much more to the fight than. what the couple is actually specifically. arguing about in that moment. >> How does one step back and see the. bigger picture? because it's difficult. >> very I think. I think the you know when when it's in. the heat of the moment when when the. iron is hot I think it's a lot to ask of.

people to really know always what's. going on and what might be feeding the. superficial fight I think maybe a. realistic thing to ask of people is to. have a voice in there that says to one. says to oneself I'm sure it's not only. about this. There must be other things. going on for me that I'm not exactly. aware of right now. >> I'm going to if I need to, if I feel. like I'm getting too, you know, there. could be signals that you're getting too.

heated about something that shouldn't. be. >> And then you can say to yourself, maybe. I should pause, think about it for a. while, and come back to the. conversation, not in the heat of it. >> Yeah. >> But just to maintain this kind of kernel. of curiosity. I have an unconscious. There might be other things going on. here. There are signals that that you. give yourself when you're like when you. get too excited about something, too. upset, like when there's a feeling that. you get when when something else is. going on. >> Y.

>> I love that in the show though when you. have those moments with someone because. again, I think like sometimes in. romantic relationships there's a dynamic. that you're trying to sustain and like. the ego does come into play sometimes. And so I understand when I watch people. on the show like one person doesn't want. to give it up but then when you ask the. brilliant question of like can we pause. for a minute what do you think this what. else is this about for you like what hap. like what was your relationship with. your mother? Yeah. And then all of a.

sudden the person goes down a spiral of. like, "Well, she never gave me attention. and I was always fighting for attention. for my mother." And then all of a sudden. before she even finishes the sentence, she's like, "Oh.". >> Oh, I guess it's cuz she she never is. looking at me in a way that I feel like. I'm having to like ask her for. attention. Like it's all these inner. dynamics that we had growing up. I know. that when it's in the moment, when your. when your partner triggers you, let's. say in the way your mom triggered you,

>> it's very hard in those moments to like. step out and say, "Oh, it's my mother. issues that are playing out right now. cuz it feels so real and so intense in. the moment.". >> Yeah. >> It's hard. It's hard for people to do. Do you have any advice? Like how do we. check in on ourselves and determine if. we're picking a fight quite literally. just for the thrill of conflict? Like I. think people do love conflict. >> Yes. >> Give us some advice. Or.

>> I like that you're saying that the. thrill of conflict because I talk to. people about that. Um. >> people don't usually like to acknowledge. that. Mhm. >> I think what I would say is first of. all, it's great to acknowledge that. there is such a thing as the thrill of. conflict. >> Okay? >> And I'm going to say something even. slightly provocative. There's nothing. bad with that. >> Okay. Or.

>> I know like. >> who is she? [laughter] I know. I know. I'm not like I don't think like the I. mean people are different in what they. need in their relationship, but I think. sometimes people who need to have fights. or or pick on each other or let out some. steam through the relationship or I. think that's okay. I mean, it's. relationships are not supposed to be. this kind of hallmark. picture perfect like sweetness thing,

>> right? It's it's a place where people. live. >> um and discharge on each other um and. use each other and in small ways betray. each other and recover. I I think that's life and and I think. for people not to be so hard on each. other for using each other in that way. for for living in the relationship. It's. just like, you know, I often talk about the fact. that I don't I don't use like I don't.

even use coasters on my furniture. I'm. like, furniture is to be used like like. leave a stain and cut through the board. and and it's like that's what it's here. for. And relationships are like that. too. You want the relationship to be in. a live place. >> I think where it gets um problematic is. if you're really. >> hurting each other. >> Mhm. And if there's something too pernitious. about it or if like the thrill of injury.

is what takes over or of retaliation or. injury, that's when I'm like I draw the. line and I'm like, "No, that is not. you're not there to like. um abuse each other. >> and not every fight is an abuse." That's. a really great point because I think. when couples say like, "Oh, we had a. fight." Like most of the time you could. also change it to like we had an. argument or like we had a disagreement. Yeah. >> And I think when you're right though. like it it can be healthy to have fights.

because you're working through something. >> but there is a difference between a. fight and then something that is like. absolutely abusing the relationship and. is getting you [clears throat] nowhere. and it's just to push and hurt. But I. love what you said though um about how. there should be conflict and these. relationships like we're living in them. I think we've watched growing up for. decades and decades. Like historically. when you think of romantic relationships.

they're held on a different pedestal. than every other relationship in our. life. Like who the hell has a perfect. relationship with their parents, with. their siblings, with their friends? It's. like, of course, you're going to have. conflict, disagreements, growing pains. with friends and family. Why do we think. that that wouldn't also be true and. present in romantic relationships? >> The person you're the closest to, >> right? Yeah. That you have to like live. with and wake up with and like load the.

dishwasher with. >> Right. Right. And I think that's like it. it's it's helpful to talk about that to. make people feel better of like of. course no relationship is perfect, but. when your primary dynamics were in the. household you were growing up in, of. course families are going to fight. Now. your new family that you're building, of. course there's going to be problems, but. it's how do we actually like address the. problems? Is it to be cutting and to go. beneath the belt and to make the person. feel bad? Or is it like you're talking. through a disagreement and like you're.

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details. I need to know, and this is for. all the daddy gang out there that are. like, "Don't call us out." Why do some. people find toxic relationships so. exciting and so addicting? Okay, good question. How how would we. frame it? Um, I mean the the more kind of classical. psychoanalytic way to think about like. why people get pulled towards like.

abusive and toxic relationships is that. it's some form of what we call in jargon. repetition compulsion. >> Okay, where something is unresolved. Let's say a past dynamic is unresolved. or past trauma or a way that you were. treated in an earlier stage of your life. is unresolved and unworked through and. you're kind of looking for some way to. repeat the same issue that you haven't. resolved.

um whether it's to master it. >> to to come out of it better or because. there's just this kind of. um compulsion to just repeat the same. thing. So that's one reason people get. stuck on on toxic relationships. But. there are other ways to think about it. like. toxic relationships. One of the things. they do and toxic relationships I mean. sometimes it's too wide a term. I like I. think maybe not. I don't think we need. to go as far as like it's abusive. It's.

just like this very unhealthy like this. person is constantly playing games. constantly like. >> is there a version of like little. gaslighting? Like it's not full-blown. gaslighting like. >> you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Um, it's, you know, I I often try to. like when when I talk to people about. like they're clinging on to. relationships that are not good for. them. Sometimes it's um.

when a person feels on some level damage. or bad about themselves or. um. shame about certain aspects of. themselves. they at times go for. situations that reinforce that view of. themselves. >> Interesting. Because as you were saying. that, I was having a moment where I was. thinking about when I was in college, I.

had been like super insecure when I was. younger and I would go for these men. that like. it was like I was trying to get the the. guy that was so unattainable. And when I. would get him, I was like playing the. game back, but there was a part of me. that like enjoyed it because it felt. like it was like validating to me, like. you got him, like you did it. And it was. almost like healing the wounds of me. feeling like no guy wanted me when I was.

younger and like I would get picked on. And so when I would get these guys that. was like the captain of the hockey team, it was like I almost was going for like. in my brain accolades of like I want to. get there to prove to it was more to. prove to myself I can. I never felt. fulfilled. I never felt happy. But it. was like. >> I was replaying, oh, if I was younger, these are the things I wish I could have. done. And then I got there, I'm like, well, this isn't fun. Right. >> Like I don't feel happy. I don't feel. seen. But it was like an ego thing. almost, >> right?

>> And you can and that is in a certain way. you're trying to repair something. >> Yeah. >> But sometimes it's I mean you can in a. way flip it and you can see people who. are not doing it to repair. They're. doing it actually to just keep telling. themselves I suck. I suck. >> And what do you what is that mostly from. childhood that. >> it's a form I mean you can think of it. as masochism but it's it's like um. it's a it's being stuck on a certain. kind of repeat. It's um self-negating. I.

mean people do all sorts of neurotic. things that are bad for them. >> Yeah. >> For I mean that's why we have. psychoanalysis. I mean, >> yeah, >> there many ways that people do things. that are bad for them. >> Have you found through psychoanalysis. like any repeating pattern from. childhood that would make someone. constantly. try to remind themselves of how they're. not worthy, not good enough? >> Yes. >> Can you share just a couple examples? Well, the classic example, I mean, it's.

kind of an extreme example, but think of. the classic pattern of people who've. been, let's say, sexually abused as. children. >> and then in teenage years, they're like. they enter like a series of like. abusive, promiscuous relationships that. just make them feel like because. that's the only way they can they know. how to think of themselves. It's like an. endless self-punishing cycle. It's very. I mean it's like a very particular kind. of dynamic with people who've had like.

early abuse. >> that it takes like deep work to. >> move out of that pattern. >> But you know that that's so helpful. Yeah. I think because I think again why. I appreciate these type of conversations. in the show is like I think a lot of. people who maybe have not. even begun to like experience therapy or. thought about it or it just wasn't a. part of their upbringing. Like that. statement alone could would be crazy to. people. Like hold on. So someone that. was abused is now going to go and like.

and. >> put themselves in harm's way, >> right? And they it would be like wait. what? Like I'd think they'd just never. have sex for the rest of their life and. they'd be shut down. that's just not the. case. But I think these type of. conversations help explain to people. like the intricacy of trauma and how it. unfolds in your adult life. But I. appreciate you sharing that cuz I'm sure. I mean one in every what three women. like so many women listening to this. show may be sitting there like, "Oh my. god, Orna.".

>> Yeah. >> I think I'm. >> I think I'm doing that. >> And how do you even begin to like what. just therapy and talking through it? I. know the work of therapy. I mean there. other ways that people deal with issues. but. >> in psychoanal in psychoanalytic work. what we do is we I mean this is like. yeah. >> it's different with each person but um. you basically the idea is that you try. to go back and revisit. the actual experience.

>> and help the person now with their more. mature mind really tend to what happened. to them to the injuries to to what was. missing. try to imagine how things could get. better. Like you really try to tend to. all the areas that were disavowed and. neglected over the years and and heal. And I understand why that sounds. absolutely terrifying to people. >> Yeah. >> Like people with that type of trauma or. any type of trauma, you're like, "Hold.

on, Ora. I'm supposed to go back and. relive it, >> right? >> Are you crazy? Like I put it away. I. tucked it away.". But I think what people realize when. they come out on the other side of it is. there's such. >> power and resilience you feel within. yourself when you can go back and you. can start to take. >> control over your own life and not let. this thing that happened to you. >> Yeah. >> Define you. >> Yeah. >> Because it does start to define you when. you don't. >> address it. It comes up in your romantic. in your friendships in every part of.

your work life. Um, and that's when it. gets terrifying. >> and people, it's so important for people. to feel like they're not, like you're. saying, defined by bad things that. happened to them in the past, that they. have some freedom, some degrees of. freedom out of that. >> Yeah. >> Back to couples, how big of a role does. sex play in a healthy relationship? >> Um, it's funny. I just saw something in. the in the Times today that I I haven't. read yet, but about like people that are.

talking about how sex is not that. important in their marriage. I think it. varies a lot. >> I think not only is sex like a you know. this kind of domain that could goes. anywhere and people have like all. possible things in their mind and in. their bodies and and. >> that can transpire between them. I mean. sex is like a huge terrain. but um the importance of sex and like. what meaning people assign to sex in. their relationship varies a lot.

>> Um. I think for some people. having. an ongoing connection through the body. through sexuality is incredibly. grounding. Um and without that they feel. um unmed. and for other people it's not like their. main it's not where they live it's not. where the essence of their life is. I.

mean for some people it might be like in. the far out [snorts] intellectual domain. and and the body is kind of a. sort of byproduct that they tag along. but they really live in their mind and. they want to live there with. [clears throat] their partner. >> It really varies a lot between people. cuz I've had conversations with friends. and I have. >> a large spectrum as you would expect. Like I have one friend that's like my. parents weren't overly affectionate. So.

I don't find myself like I don't like. need sex. I actually just like crave. more conversation. >> Exactly. >> Whereas I have other friends that are. like oh I like the only way I know that. we're like in a good place is if like. we've gone too long without sex. I'm. like what's wrong with us? Like are we. disconnected? >> Yeah. And I though I'm curious if you. have a couple where one is on one side. of the spectrum and one is on the other. that then tough. >> that's tough right. >> it's tough definitely it's tough um.

if if people come into the relationship. on with very different let's say love. languages or. inclinations. that is tough. What's interesting is. that um couples might start off not that. different from each other. I mean, one. might be more physically affectionate or. have like a stronger libido or like find. sex as like where they express.

themselves and the other may be a little. less. Sometimes what happens and that is. a problem is that people work out other. tensions or difficulties through in that. arena and then they polarize. >> So explain that more. >> Someone could I mean the bedroom is. often where people sadly work out other. agendas. Mhm. >> So, someone could be like mad at their. partner for, I don't know, like not. picking up the slack or taking care of. the kid or whatever and withhold sex.

>> It's easy for them to withhold sex cuz. that's not exactly their mode of. operating, but for the other party, it. might feel like the worst kind of. punishment and like the most threatening. thing to do. And then and then you get. into the dynamic of polarization. So. they may not have started so different. but it's they're working out some other. issue through in that domain and that is. a problem. Well, that's also a problem. because the person that is not, let's.

say, as this is just I'm just throwing. this out there, sexual, that's not the. actual right term, but if the person. that's not as sexual in the relationship. >> has the power, right? >> Because they're holding the keys to the. sexual relationship. And the person that. wants it is then at times probably. feeling like I'm such the pursuer. constantly. I feel like I'm being. rejected. I feel like I'm not getting. the love I want. where the other person. is like, "All you care about is sex.

for it." But then they're like, "Well, because you never come to me for it.". And they're like, "Because you're always. wanting it." And it's like, >> how the hell do you like. >> how do you approach a conversation, I. guess, when you're in these dynamics. with these couples to like bring them. back to center. >> There's no one-sizefits-all. I mean, it. really with each couple, it's a. different thing. Mh. >> Um, but what I find happens a lot in couples. therapy is that you have to try to.

separate. If people are trying to. negotiate other issues in a way to pull. it out of the bedroom. >> Interesting. >> If you've got issues that you're working. on, if you're resentful about other. things, just try not for the bedroom to. be the arena where you're like working. it out. >> Unless it really is about the bedroom, >> right? If you both have just complete. different sex drives, like how do you. approach a conversation with your. partner if you are dissatisfied in the. bedroom? Like how do we. >> cuz that's a tough conversation and can. be awkward.

>> Tough conversation and I would actually. probably start off by assuming I mean. unless it's a very verbal couple. >> I would actually not start with. language. >> Okay. >> Um a lot of sexual needs and. differences. great to resolve. I mean, if you're going to try to work on it to. do it in real time through the body, >> like signal through the body, through. nonverbal ways what you want, what you.

need. Experiment with things. And I. guess it depends on the couple like what. works for them. Working it out in real. time or working it out like when you're. not in the middle of a sexual encounter, when vulnerabilities are high, passion. is high. It's a tricky thing to use. language in those moments. >> It's so tricky because I mean unless. you're in deep deep therapy like you got. to be very careful because you can. completely shut down and like I I agree. to not like gender it but like let's say. it is the woman coming to the man like.

it can just make them feel so shut down. where they're like how long have you. been thinking about this? You're. dissatisfied. They're feeling. emasculated. Or rolls reverse the man. comes to you and you're feeling like oh. my god have you not been enjoying the. sex every time we're having sex? Who are. you thinking of? Like sex is a very very. vulnerable thing in a relationship and I. think you're I never thought about it. that way. You're right. It's like if you. can address it first with your body like. let's say the person is dissatisfied. because every I'm making this up like.

>> every time you're having sex with your. partner. You're feeling like it's you're. disconnected. Like you're having. physical sex but it just feels physical. and there's no connection. Okay. Well, instead of saying that, like you're. right, Orna, like maybe you're when is. the last time in the morning are you. hugging and kissing before you each. leave for work? Or no, you're just kind. of ships in the night and you see each. other and then of course when you're. having sex, of course it doesn't feel. intimate and special. Are you hugging? Are you touching? Do you hold hands? Like. >> you want more connection of intimacy.

when you're having sex. Put intimacy. throughout the rest of your relationship. first before like you're right. like. lead with that and then all of a sudden. >> and you can do it while you're intimate, while you're having sex. I mean, there. are ways that people can increase that. kind of intimacy while they're having. sex, not through words, >> right? Looking at each other, kissing. while you're having sex, like maybe you. guys never kiss while you're having sex. That could feel a little like isolating. where you're like, "This could be. anyone." So,

>> I love that advice because I do feel a. lot of people write into me just like, "I literally don't know how to tell my. partner like I'm not happy." I think. that's like a very non-daunting way to. go about it is like first just slowly. trying to make those steps yourself. within the relationship and you don't. have to have this big like blow up. conversation. >> Yeah. Why blow up at all? I mean when. we're talking about sex, I mean there's. the other thing which is like. frame things as requests. >> as opposed to as complaints. I mean,

that's always a good piece of advice, which is like translate what's bothering. you into a request, into an ask. >> rather than a complaint. >> I mean, the outcome could be very. different. >> Can you give us an example of like how. it would be bad to say it versus a good. way to say it? >> Like, you never kiss me versus let's. kiss. [snorts]. [laughter]. It sounds so simple, but like. >> it's so not that simple when you're in.

the moment and he's like doing the. dishes and you're like, "Okay, here I. go. Here I go. >> Why don't you kiss me ever? When we have. sex, you never kiss me." I don't know. the last time that you've made out with. me and we're having sex and he's. literally like mid dishwashing. What? What [laughter] just happened? And. meanwhile, it's like you also I think. something I've learned in therapy a lot. and we did it in couples therapy was. like something that you have been. holding on to. That's why it's so good. to not hold on to things for too long in. a relationship because then you've had. 19 conversations with yourself and they.

have no idea you've been thinking this. So then when it comes out it can. literally feel like a war and the person. is like oh my god [laughter]. >> what is happening. I thought our sex. life was great recently. >> Yeah. >> So you're right. It's like hey you know. what I would. >> love to make out when we're having sex. I was thinking about that like I love. making out with you. Why don't we do it. more when we have sex? making it. >> I wouldn't even say why don't. >> Oh, don't say [snorts] why don't. Nope. >> Let's. >> let's shall we? >> Yeah. Shall we?

>> To the best. >> As opposed to why don't [laughter] we. >> but it it's I love these conversations. with you Orner because when we are going. on our day-to-day lives like it is hard. to remember all these things and. sometimes it's good to just have these. slowdown conversations of like. >> all of us are the way we are because of. everything that's come before us with in. our lives. And when you're standing. across from your partner, it is not just. the day we met on our first date and. forward. It's like no, no, no. Life. existed before this person and what.

happened to you. Um, I'm curious like. when we talk about past trauma because I. think this is something that's like a. misconception. I think a lot of most. people assume we're talking about. extreme situations, which we can, of. course, we could do a whole episode on. extreme situations like abuse, but can. you talk about other types of childhood. dynamics that can impact us in. adulthood? >> Yeah. Um, of course. I mean, first of.

all, there's, you know, what I mean, I think it's. quite popular now, um, to talk about. like attachment styles. Mhm. >> Um but the very first patterns of. relatedness that we establish with the. people that take care of us, often. parents, not always, they will influence the rest of our. lives. They will set the kind of. expectations we have. For example, a. simple and very important thing like if.

you need something and you make an ask. to the world, will the world respond? M. >> or not. >> Like you're saying if you asked your. parents when you were younger for help. on something and. >> before even ask for help like your. diaper was wet and you started crying, how long did it take for your parent to. get there and change your diaper? If you. were collicky and you had like. incredible stomach aches, was it even.

possible to help you with it? Sometimes. it's really difficult to help calicky. babies and they start off the world with. some idea that when I'm in distress, the. world can't always help me. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. It's like it's really like basic. stuff [snorts] of like what what to. expect from like the world. Like can do. I have that like incredible trust that. when I'm in distress, >> help will come. Those are really early. things that get established and they're.

not [clears throat] always because of. neglect or abuse. Sometimes it's just. like again I mean you can be a collicky. baby or you could have all sorts of ways. that your system is disregulated and. it's very hard to take care of you as a. baby. >> and then you start off with a pattern of. I don't know what to call it mistrust or. some way that the call-in response is. yeah not established well. But I think. it's important to just like highlight. that for a minute because I can imagine.

a lot of people listening are like, "Oh, well, I don't have trauma compared to my. friend. Like my friend went this through. this or was abused when she was younger. or did that." And like I don't have. trauma. It's like. >> everyone has something that we all are. the way we are because of our. upbringing. >> And I think that when we instead of. being like, "Well, my stuff is not as. bad." Take care of yourself. And also. recognize like, hey, if you find. yourself in a pattern in romantic. relationships where you're like, why do. I keep doing this? Oh, and it does kind. of show up at work, too. Like, I'm. always pulling away when someone's being.

nice to me. I can't take a compliment or. I can't like as simple as that. Where. does that come from? And I think when we. start to ask ourselves the questions, yes, it leads us down this like little. dark path, but it's exciting to know. that there is an answer. >> Yeah. >> And you can resolve it. And the answer. could be like really interesting. actually to go down that path and try to. figure out. It's actually it's really. interesting. >> It is it's fascin.

But it really comes down to like I'm. fascinated by the human experience of. like we all grow up and like what. triggers did we experience to make us. afraid of intimacy or overly intimate. and overly trusting or reserved or. outwardly like very dramatic in moments.

and people see it as dramatic, but. really what is it? Is it a cry for. attention because you like. >> Yeah, it's interesting. >> It's endless. >> Like I love it. Call Her Daddy is. brought to you by T-Mobile. Daddy Gang, there are honestly so many reasons to. just choose T-Mobile. They've got. T-Mobile Tuesdays perks, tons of. freebies, travel benefits like hotel and. rental car savings. They make your phone. plan feel like it's actually giving you. something back instead of just being. another bill that you have to pay every.

single month. And if you're a student, T-Mobile has student perks plans. designed specifically for you. I. remember being in college and constantly. literally just looking for ways to save. money, understandably. And so, these are. the kind of perks I would have. absolutely taken advantage of. Students. can get things like a $5 movie ticket. every month, exclusive access to. concerts, okay, and even streaming. benefits, so you can always have a. reality TV binge night with your girls.

And when you're already paying for your. phone every month, getting all of these. extra benefits on top of it just it. makes sense, right? For all the reasons. to choose T-Mobile, find yours at. t-mobile.com/membership. Qualifying plan required, visit. T-Mobile.com. question I think is very interesting is. I actually had this from a fan was which. is where should someone draw the line. between being supportive of their.

partner versus taking on way too much of. their partner's trauma as their own. >> I think that um the question itself is. an important one. There's a difference. between. [clears throat] There's a difference. between caring for another person and. taking care of them. and getting kind of inshed, symbiotic, lost in someone else, >> which is not actually an act of care.

It's something else. >> Um, it's I guess what in in lay language is. called kind of codependency. You know, it makes me think a little bit about um. raising children. Doing everything for. them is not always the best thing. Figure out like what do they need for. their own independence and development. When are you overdoing for your child. because of your own issues like in a way. using your child to to work through. something versus seeing them for who.

they are and and when do they need a bit. of support and when do you need to step. back and and let them do their own. thing. I mean, that's kind of a a very. good learning ground for this difference. between like overdoing it and and doing. it right out of care. Um, I think there are many reasons why. people get codependent that are not. about care for the other person. >> Share with me. >> I mean, you can come like a million.

reasons why, like getting lost in. someone else because you don't want to. face something in yourself. you're. escaping like your own stuff, insecurities, um, all sorts of avoidance tactics. I think. maybe what I'm trying to say is that. it's important to try to ask yourself, am I getting super involved because I. care for the well-being of this person. or am I answering some need of mine. here? Hard hard to decipher. That's what.

I was going to say cuz like is it is it. up to say like someone that has. like secure attachment. would probably never get themselves. completely down a rabbit hole in that. situation cuz they would be like hold on. love you so much but like you need help. and I can't give this to you where. >> maybe it immediately turns on a light. for someone of like I'm needed I'm. wanted they need me and then it becomes. codependent because again back to the. beginning of this episode it's just.

feeling actually something within them. to take care of that person. And of. course, they think they love them and. they're trying, >> but it also is like completely filling. their cup by being like, >> "They need me and I'm here. [clears throat] and I'm the caretaker. and I didn't have that when I was. younger, so now I'm going to take on. that role." Like whatever it is. >> That's a really great way of describing. it. Yes. But do you think it's almost. like in a way also to help someone with. that question is like is this too. dramatic to be like it's almost like. when.

if you're dating someone that has a. substance abuse problem. >> you literally are cannot help that p. person to a certain extent. Of course. you can drive them to rehab. >> but they have to walk in the doors. They. have to participate in the healing and. you're not a professional to help the. healing. So when someone has this. trauma, you can be there and cry with. them and hold them, but it only goes to. a certain extent where you're then both. being brought down. And if anything, you. could be prohibiting them from actually. seeking real help because there's this.

like codependency of like we're going to. do this together, >> right? >> You can't you can't do that together. >> Agree. They need they need a U. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Or a me or an AA. situation or Yeah. More questions from. our fans. >> What are some signs the relationship is. moving too fast? >> You know, a relationship has ideally it. I'm saying this and I'm immediately. contradicting myself in my mind, but.

okay. >> Okay, >> let me say the first thing. >> Okay, >> a relationship has typically like a. developmental arc. >> It takes a lot of time to get to know. another person. Mhm. >> I always feel like with my patients, it. takes me two years to feel like I know. this person. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> My god. I wonder how my therapist feels. about me. >> How long have you been seeing them? >> Over two years. >> Yeah, for sure. >> It I I feel like there's a moment in. which suddenly it's like, oh, all the pieces are coming together now.

I get this person. >> It takes a long time to get to know a. person. Um, and I think the idea of like. moving too fast is when you assume you. know more than you do. When you think you got it, you you. understood everything about them. You. you get it. They understood you. And and. in a way, you're um. blocking all the areas that create. the discomfort of realizing I don't know.

that person. and that person doesn't. know me, which is scary. It's. uncomfortable. It's scary. I think. people sometimes have an inclination to. to want to avoid that and rush so that. they don't sit through the discomfort of. like otherness and and unfamiliarity and. awkwardness, >> which is part of getting to know a. person. There's going to be a lot of. awkwardness. >> So much awkwardness. >> Yeah. And I like that you're saying that.

because I have had women write in being. like, "Alex, I'm officially 30." I'm. like, "You're so young. Enjoy it." And. it's like, "No, no, no. I've got to find. a husband." And I'm always so worried. because it's like, listen, I think. there's moments also where we completely. project our wants onto someone. And they. could be literally sitting at a dinner. with you being like, "Yeah, so I have. this trauma." And you're like, "Oh my. god, you know where we should go this. weekend? We should go to Cancun." And. they're literally like you're just. putting on them what exactly you want. I.

want a husband. You look great. You. played the part. And it's like. >> we sometimes just. >> approach a relationship based off of. what we want from it and need from it. >> And we completely neglect the fact that. the person across from us is like I. >> stranger. >> Yes. A complete stranger. >> Yeah. >> And it's like this honeymoon phase. Mhm. >> I think the honeymoon phase can be so. tumultuous in the long run if you. elongate it for too long and the.

honeymoon phase is on you to decide when. it the bubble pops and you're like so. >> you. >> actually who are you? >> Yeah. Literally like tell me about your. childhood. >> Mhm. >> Like what what are you insecure about? Like what is something that has been. like one of the biggest hardships in. your life? Like. >> it's. daunting, but again, like you can hear. an answer from someone and be like, "Oh, I don't want to be with you because of. the way you're telling me you handled. that with this. Oh my god, I I couldn't.

relate to that at all." But sometimes. people go sometimes people I mean, you've probably seen it. How long have. you seen people go in a relationship. where you can sit down with them and. they're married for like 30 years and. you're like, "Do you guys know each. other?". >> I know. I know. >> Like, how does that happen? >> It's actually shocking to me. It's. shocking to me. >> Like that's possible, right? Like you. >> It is possible. I mean, it's like people. who like their spouse says, "I want to. get divorced." And I'll ask them like. somebody can show up for therapy and. say, "My my spouse wants to divorce me.".

And I'm like, "Well, what what have they. been what have they been saying to you. over the years that will help us. understand?" And they're like, "I don't. know.". >> What is that? >> That is um. self-absorption. How long does it. usually take in therapy to come out? >> A while. >> Really? >> A wow. >> I And I think as we're wrapping up, oh. my god, I sound like a therapist. As. we're wrapping up, you're like sobbing. I have done that with my therapist. sometimes. She's like, "And we're. wrapping up, Alex." I'm like, "Wait, my.

life is in shambles.". I appreciate you walking us through that. though at the end there because I feel. like the whole thesis of this episode is. like truly trying to dive underneath all. these decisions that we are taking on. our day-to-day just at face value. Oh, he treated me like Oh, she did. this. Oh, Why? >> Yeah, >> there's always an answer. Sometimes we. don't want to know it, but it can give. you a lot of peace when you do get. underneath it and you know it. Thank you. so much. This relationship that we have.

makes me so happy. I Oh, it does. Okay. I don't know you. I'm like emailing you. like, "Hi, Orna.". >> No, I have like a deep great fondness. for you. >> Don't make me cry. No, it's. >> No, I really appreciate you and. everything you do and I think this show. is truly revolutionary. We don't get to. see therapy working from a start to. finish moment. And obviously I know it's. not finished, but we don't get to see. the like breaking down of humans and. like watching these inner dynamics come.

from beginning to wherever they're left, whether it's breaking up or staying. together. And so I think what you guys. are doing is amazing and I'm addicted. So I'll be watching. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.