Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (Full Video)

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call. Her Daddy. Bethany Joy Lenz, welcome to Call Her. Daddy. Thank you. Your book, Dinner for. Vampires, comes out this week. Congratulations. How are you feeling? I. feel proud of it. >> Mhm. I you know, people often ask me, "Are. you excited?" And I'm thinking, "Excited. is not the right adjective because I.

it's not a story that I was ever really. dying to tell. It's not like I thought, "Oh, this is this is great material.". >> [laughter]. >> I just lived through something. traumatic, and you know, you you go. through therapy, and you want to just. work through it in in your private life. But, that became part of the healing was. recognizing how relatable my story was. to so many other people who hadn't been. in something as dramatic as a cult, and.

yet somehow I was finding myself in. conversations with so many women in. particular, but so many people who. had found themselves in this kind of. dynamic relationally. And the more I had. that conversation, the more that brought. healing to me. And then when the. opportunity of for writing a book came. up, it just felt like. this is the right thing to do. It's also. what good are our mistakes if we can't. It's honestly one of the things I love. about you and listening to your show is.

that there's this sense of like an open. mess. Like and I it's the Please don't. take that the wrong way, but. it's actually really wonderful and. really comforting to see somebody just. living in this space of, "I don't know.". And and also, "Look at this stupid. decision I made, and look at this weird. mistake that I made, and oh, we're not. alone." And we're not alone, and I and I. really appreciate you coming today. because I I think you're right in. talking about there is something that. you've gone through that maybe at face. value to people are like I cannot relate.

to being in a cult but the themes that. you experienced throughout this moment. in your life are so relatable and are. these very tangible experiences that so. many women listening are going to be. like yep yep yep I've been there. So, we're going to get into it. Um I mean I. just have to though say like and I was. saying it to downstairs the book is. incredible and it's so fascinating. because you do talk about your childhood. and your relationship with your parents. and One Tree Hill and oh by the way for. 10 years you were in this cult and I. think it's important to kind of go back.

to what led you to this moment and then. we're going to kind of go all through it. but let's get into it. How would you. describe yourself as a kid? >> [snorts]. >> I was. I had a huge imagination. I was lonely. Um. I I had a a really. I guess it was kind of like an old soul. where I think I always had this sense of.

this too shall pass. This moment is not. the biggest thing ever. and that helped me a lot in the feeling. alone, feeling. the solitude. Um. I don't know why I seemed to always. understand that as a kid but. yeah, so so there was this comfort in. knowing that there was something bigger. out there, another there was another day. coming. There was hope. And it's okay to.

just be alone and and I just learned to. enjoy my own company which was a huge. gift as well. That is a gift. Why do why. why would you say you were lonely? I was an only child and my parents were. wonderful but very young and doing the. best that they could at their age. We. had addiction in the family, we had. codependence. There was there were so. many dynamics at play, and everybody was. just trying to stay afloat. Um, so. I.

and we moved a lot, so it was hard to. maintain friendships. When you looked at. your parents' relationship growing up, like what did their relationship feel. like to you? Was it very loving? Was it. toxic? Was it. What was it like? >> It was it was tense. It was very tense. I think they really loved each other, and. as you. as as so many of us discover. that those feelings of love are.

often fleeting, and you have to build on. something more, and they both. had a deep connection to their faith, and really wanted to build their. marriage on that, but you know, they. grew up in that. they they raised me, and and they they. had come out of that uh. 80s movement of evangelicalism. That was so. it promised so many things without. giving you a foundation of a real.

relationship. moment to moment with God. There was no. sense of um it. in terms of my experience with that. movement, which I grew up in, there. wasn't a lot of uh space to be a mess, and to make mistakes, and to just like. figure it out day by day. >> Yeah. It was a lot of here are the the. rules that you need to live by. And when. you accomplish all these rules, then you. will be happy. And they believed it as. well, and then discovered, oh,

following all the rules all the time. isn't actually working. And then the. marriage became really tense because of. that and other factors. How do you think. your like watching your parents' dynamic. like shaped your view on like love and. marriage? Wow, what a great question. Damn, I didn't know I was going to. therapy today, Alex. I'll wear my. glasses [laughter] for you. >> [gasps]. >> Okay. My I think that.

I think that it it became an unsafe. place emotionally because. I. I didn't know what they were dealing. with. You're too young to understand the. inner. dynamics of a grown relationship. And. so, it became a mystery to me and it was. like, I don't want. I don't want this dynamic the the sort. of uh. one person's really calm, one person's. really hyper, um and they're constantly.

at each other's throats, and there's so. many problems, and it just was like, this is they're figuring so much out, I. better just kind of raise myself. >> Okay. And then. then going into later in my life as I. started I got so boy crazy because then. you're looking for something to fill. those holes. And. I don't know what what it did to my view. of relationships other than to know that. I didn't really have anything modeled. for me that I could look at and be like, that's what I want. How do I do it? Interesting. >> So, I probably spent a lot of time.

fishing for answers in all the wrong. places. I mean, clearly. >> [laughter]. >> But it it is helpful to hear you just. kind of like talk about the foundation. of what you were like living in this. house and just watching your parents and. knowing you wanted something different. but not knowing exactly what it was. because I think understanding that is. important to what we're about to talk. about and how you got to where you got. to. >> Yeah, I just I wanted a place to belong. It was really hard to feel like I. belonged anywhere except the theater,

>> Yep. which was. you know, that's why I went into that. field, but yeah, there was a lot of. that. There was a lot of um my parents. trying to protect me and which ended up. being gaslighting without them knowing. it. A lot of "Hey, what's going on? Is. everything okay?" And I'm met with. "Yeah, everything's fine.". And which a lot of us do with our kids, right? You want to protect your kids. Right. Right. So, it's so natural to go. "No, no, everything's fine. Everything's. okay." And you don't realize you're. denying the child's reality. You're not. acknowledging "Yeah, something's wrong.

We're not having a good day, but it will. be okay." Right. You're constantly. trying to understand You can feel it. Like you know when something's off. Like. that kids are so intuitive. And then. you're asking your parents like please. let me in on what's happening in our. family dynamic and them not allowing you. to know. That also probably like created. a false sense of reality of like you're. then having to like finish the sentence. for yourself cuz you're like I know it's. not okay, but they won't tell me. So, I. guess I'll just again be alone, go into.

my room, and create whatever my. narrative is going to be for myself. because that's all you can do. Yeah, and. actually what it did was oh, I must be. wrong. Like I feel like something's. wrong. I feel like something's off. I. can feel that in my gut. But everyone is. telling me that everything's okay. So, my gut must be off. So, when you start at a young age to. believe my gut is off. I can't trust. myself. I can't trust my own instincts. It makes it a lot easier when you get. older for people to take advantage of. you.

Let's talk about the big house family. cult. So, you were in your early 20s. Then you moved to LA. You're pursuing. acting. How did you end up meeting this. group? Yeah, I So, I was in LA. I went. with a I went with a girlfriend to. um. to her. Saturday night Bible study that she was. going to. It was very. benign. It was the It was the same kind. of Bible study I'd been going to having. been raised in in the Western. evangelical church.

It was super common. Wednesday night, Saturday night meetings. You just show. up and it's like an addition to church. It's a way of sort of keeping the church. going beyond Sunday. And uh there's. music and food and everybody talks and. gets vulnerable and it felt very, very. normal to me. Um so yeah, at first it was just. nothing to be suspicious about. And what. were you feeling like you were wanting? Cuz once your friend brought you, then. you kept going and you're like, what. were you looking for when you were kind.

of like starting to join this group? I was looking for a place to belong. still. I think that was the constant. search. Where do I fit? Where do I belong? And I. had moved here. I'd lived in New York. before then and I loved New York. It. felt like home. I was, you know, in. Jersey for 8 years and then Manhattan. and. and I felt like a New Yorker and I loved. the creativity there and the pulse and. it just felt so great. And moving to LA, everything's really spread out and. community was harder to find. So I I was.

in need of community. >> Yeah, which I think is a really normal. thing. I have so many women write in to. me being like, I moved to new city, I. don't know how to make friends and I. think a huge thing that people look for. are groups to join. Like, can I join. SoulCycle? >> Right. Like we're going biking every. whatever it is, like you're trying to. find a community that you can feel a. part of something. >> Your tribe. Yes. >> And that is normal. You write about when. things really started to go downhill was. a man named Les entered the picture for.

this group and he kind of started to. take control of the group that you were. seemingly already a part of. Um what was. your first impression of him? >> [laughter]. >> My first impression was. um. that he was just kind of a. jolly guy. I mean, I didn't think much. of him. I I met him across a room and he. was um. just another face that I was meeting in. LA. Um. His whole family was with him when we.

met and I. I do remember having this like. check in my gut, and I thought it was. because. I. All right, I'll be really honest. >> Yeah. I thought it was because I didn't. like their faces. Oh. >> Have you ever met someone where you just. like, "I don't like your face?". >> Right, cuz you're kind of like, "I don't. know if I trust you." Or something about. it. >> Yeah, and then you're like, "What an. I am?". >> Right, I'm like, "Somebody's face? Like, off.". But I get what you're saying. There's. just something about it. They're like,

"Huh." Yeah. And I And the whole family, I just there was something about me that. was like, "I don't like their faces.". And then And then I felt terrible, and I. was like, "Joy, you're judging myself.". You know, you know, Joy, what an. you are. And so, that was my first. impression was just here's a family of. people I'd never met. Um they're friends. with my friends. I don't like their faces, and I'm I'm a. jerk for that, and I'm going to get over. it, and let's get to know each other. I love the honesty. You're like, "Something up for Meanwhile, it's like. you had that gut feeling, but again,

from a young age, you were kind of. taught your gut is wrong. So, don't. think that there's anything wrong with. this person. You're fine, Joy. Keep. going.". >> Yeah, and it couldn't be my gut. It has. to be something else. What is it? Uh faces. Yes. Right? Right. So, once. Les kind of took over, can you describe. to me how in the beginning, just like. a dynamic shift? Like, what changed when. this man kind of came into the picture? It It. It started moving from something that.

felt very communal and very. all uh par- participatory. Like, everyone was participating. And it It takes time. Like, it. It He couldn't have just come in and. changed it overnight, you know? There. were There was a slow transition. It. took about a year. Now that I In retrospect, I'm able to. look back at it. And. it was slow. He. started spending more time with us. He. started uh investing in the lives of. the group members and the people who.

were there. I mean, group members. I. guess it was just the friends that were. gathering. And started to lead the meetings, and he. was a pastor without a church at the. time, which I found out later why. But, you. have to read the book to find out. Um. And so, it felt like, "Oh, wow. What a. What an amazing opportunity we have to. give this sweet pastor without a church. a forum to speak and to share the things.

that are on his heart." And it felt. encouraging and um. felt like I was being challenged and. called up to be more than I was. currently living in. uh. spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and. that was exciting. I think it's important to, like, as. we're going through this journey, and. obviously there's so many more details. in the book, but I I really appreciate. you clarifying that it's like this There. was not a moment someone walked through.

the doors, and it's like, "This is how. we're going to do things now." Because. every human being in that establishment. would have been like, "This feels icky. and weird." It's just like when we see. an in abusive relationships where people. that are manipulative are very good at. knowing it is a slow burn, so you don't. notice it immediately. It's just this. slow moment that all of a sudden you. wake up one day and be like, "Wait, how. did this How did this happen?" And so, hearing a year of this person just kind. of coming in and slowly getting closer.

to everyone and like settling down roots. and making you trust this person was the. beginning days. Yeah. Something you. wrote about in the book, and this was. kind of when things started to get more. intense, is you write about how you were. told that independence created an. internal rebellion against God. Can you. explain what this meant and how this. like impacted your life in this like. view? Yeah, there there are so many things in. the book that I hope for people who.

uh grew up in this faith, hopefully it'll be a little easier for. them to spot. the. healthy versus unhealthy versions of. things, which I think in so many realms. there are healthy and unhealthy. versions. The unhealthy version of that is. independence is bad, therefore anything. that separates you from the unity with.

the group or translate it to an abusive. relationship, the person that you're. with, translate it to a work. environment, your work community, um. anything that's inhibiting your ability. to cast off yourself and serve other. people in favor of yourself, >> [snorts]. >> that's. problematic and that needs to be. addressed and shut down. Does that make. sense? Is it clear?

>> It makes so much sense and I appreciate. you kind of showing the different ways. it can show up, not just again like in a. group setting, but like in in a. relationship or work. Like I think. everyone listening, Daddy Gang, like. we've all been there where you start to. feel like your. independence is either being threatened. or you find yourself getting too wrapped. up in something and then we all have. that moment, we pray, that we're like, "Wait, I was losing myself." Like we've. all said that at some point in our life, but how far did you go before you.

realized you lost yourself? Everyone has. a different experience and there's a. different barometer and I get what. you're talking about here is like you. are being preached like stop living this. independent life, rely on us, the group. And you you you believe it. I believed. it. >> Mhm. Because. it felt like yeah, I don't want to be. out here floating alone doing everything. on my own. I have blind spots. I mean, do you have blind spots? We all have.

blind spots. That's a reasonable thing. for someone to say to you. So, okay, I've got blind spots. Well, I need. community. I need people to help me see. what my blind spots are. So, I if I live. in it in super independence, then I'm. not allowing people in. So, I have to. live in this place where I I trust other. people to see things for me that I can't. see. The problem is of course, if you are. allowing the wrong people or person to. speak into your life in that way, then. they can just wreak havoc and say and do. whatever they want. And so, it's a very.

fine line. And you think Joy like that's. why I was I'm happy you wrote so much. about your childhood in the book and. we're we lightly talked about in the. beginning of like you reference this. loneliness that you felt as a child. And. I think anyone that you can be so. independent that's so different than. being lonely. And I think when you. experience loneliness, we've all. experienced it. Again, to what degree? Everyone has their own situation. But. like you crave we all crave human. connection and we crave feeling a part. of something. So, having that been so.

integral to your childhood of feeling. alone and being an only child, I can. understand you like seeking out this. feeling of like safety and comfort and. people that care about you and are. bringing you in. >> Yeah. The cult though and how we talk about we. started with the independence, they used. a lot of very like loaded language that. you came to learn like bio family. What. did that term mean, Joy? [sighs]. Bio family.

That's the part where everybody runs out. the door. >> [laughter]. >> Like that's where I lose you guys in the. story. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was far into the story. by then. We we were so and I think what. I wrote was that he didn't have to be. subtle. The This less character didn't. have to be subtle about it anymore. He. could just start saying things like bio. family. Bio family meant the family you. were born into. but was not necessarily the family that. you may have been called to be a part. of, called spiritually into. I do think.

a lot of people are more progressive now. to be like, I can choose my family. Yeah. So like I understand the concept. um but I get what you're saying now. It's like it was a whole different level. of manipulation that was going on. >> You understand the concept. >> Yes. Yes. >> So many of us do. We're it's it's the um. it's a pain to go be with my family for. the holidays because of all the not I'm. not saying me but so many of us say. that. And and I want to go to vacation.

with my friends because that's my. family. Hey fam. Hey chosen fam. You. hear it in church all the time. What's. up family? We're a tribe. And what's. what's g- so insidious about it is that. when someone uses something like that to. say actually. we're separating you. It's not just a. it's an it's not just an extra club that. you're a part of. Yes. It's actually. creating that um suppressive person is. another term. You know, that that space.

of like you are separate. You are other. We are here. This is real family and. that is. bio family. And now let's talk about. that cuz that is again now where like. that differentiation is important. It's. not just like we're another extended. family. Can you talk to me about how. they encouraged you to distance yourself. from your parents? Yeah. It's slow, man. Like it doesn't. again yeah, I've said this quote a. couple times. Um.

Mark Vicente who was in NXIVM, he has. this great quote in The Vow. He's in the kitchen. He's like, "Nobody. joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, 'Hey, I can't wait to up my life. Where do I sign?'" Yes. So, it happens. really slowly and. um. they. there were things like um small comments. dropped. A lot of things like, "Hey, how was your time with your mom?" Mhm.

Well, "Oh, oh, it was fine, you know, like. usual.". Well, well, whatever. "Yeah, I'm sorry. It's that's tough to not have a a great. relationship with your mom." "Yeah, it's. okay. I mean, she's my mom." "Yeah, but. you know, don't forget like we're your. family. We're here for you and just. she's just on a different on a different. path and she's on a different way. Okay, so that's the easy one, right? Like. that's the first like okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see her. I can be have space. for her." And then it's like, "Well, well,

did you talk to your mom about that?". "Yeah, I shared it with her.". "But just might just be careful, you. know, because. you're just spiritually in a different. place than her and she may not be able. to understand and I would just hate for. her to be sowing things into you that. are not the truth of your identity. And. you know, generations are powerful and. uh so just just be careful." "Oh, gosh, I I hadn't thought of that.". "Yeah, okay.". And then that's the little seed and then.

and then the next one is um. "Yeah, I I like your mom. She's, you. know, she's really sweet, but um yeah, she just really doesn't understand you. And I just want to encourage you, you. know, she doesn't understand boundaries, Joy. So, just please make sure that. you're protecting your boundaries and. you don't need to call her back if. you're not ready to. You don't need to. You don't need to. just because she's demanding something. doesn't mean you have to give it to. her.". All things that sound reasonable in the. right context. >> Wow.

But you. That's why it takes time because it's. not just something you can say to. somebody. It has to You have to gain. their trust. You have to. I had to. to believe so many other good things. I. had to see morning mornings with coffee. sitting on the front porch talking about. philosophy. I had to see parenting. moments. I had to see so many things. that built these this illusion of trust. >> Yeah. That when someone who is a. narcissist sews those things into you. then not to use Yeah.

>> Christianese or weird terms, but I. whatever we all say these things. So. So I still second guess myself all the. time as you can see. But. um. it it's so much more believable. Yeah. No, and I I appreciate you kind of. sharing that gradual conversation. because then I can imagine it just kept. going to the point of complete isolation. from your family of I I don't know if I. don't want to put words in your mouth, but then it can get once you fully have. their trust it's like Joy, you know.

you're better than that. You should not. be speaking to your mother. >> Yeah. >> You know she's going to bring you down. And then it's And again, I think. everyone if we pause has those moments. with their friends, right? Where it's. like you know your friend needs to break. up with their boyfriend. Let's just. pretend, okay? We're going to use a. really simple simple conversation your. daddy gang. You know if you go to your. friend and be like, "Your boyfriend is a. dick. He is definitely cheating on you. You need to leave him." Your friend is. going to be like a no. Like if if. anything F you and walk away from your.

friend. >> in this relationship. You don't see what. he's like at 3:00 in the morning, so. sweet, blah blah blah. >> Yes. But if you we all have that ability. and it's and it can be manipulative or. not manipulative, but I believe with. friendships it's like you know you have. to be gradual and easy with those. friends. You be like, "Hey, how are you. feeling?" Then they open up to you. Then. the next come cuz you know you can't you. don't want your friend to shut off and. you know she won't listen to you unless. you like lightly just give her the space. to talk. And then one day she may like, "Well, what do you think?" And then you. open up to be like, I think you deserve. better. I love you so much. I'm here no.

matter. It's It's a natural human being. thing that can be good, but what you're. describing, there was. no good behind it because this person. the intent was to isolate you. Where. what the example I'm giving is it can. look the same from outside, but it's. really like, no, you want your friend to. have the best, but you're also. recognizing human beings if you walk in. a room and you say, do this, they're. going like, what's wrong with you? It's. the gradualness that allows people to. get into a position where you trust. someone and then hopefully that person.

is not a manipulative psycho to be. manipulating you in a way that is like. going to up your life. >> Yeah. And we trust, I think as human. beings, that's natural to be like, wow, I've seen you be such a great person in. front of me, why wouldn't I trust this. person? >> Yes, why wouldn't we? I mean, who wants. to No, it's great because who wants to. go through the world mistrusting. everyone? That's That's not a happy way. to live. >> Did your parents ever. come to you with concern about this. group? >> Ab- absolutely.

Um my. my dad has was was much more forceful. and open about it and. he's a very smart man. He's incredibly. educated man. So, he he had done so much. research and he had he grew up in the. '70s. I mean, talk about cults, like. they were everywhere in the '70s. >> think I know this. >> Yeah, yeah. So, he definitely was He. came to visit once and um. you know, he was like, this feels weird, but I guess he told my mom, like, no, I. think this is a cult. This is bad news.

But he was much more open with me about. it. My mom was really smart and knew how. to play the long game. Mhm. So, she just. kind of wa- waited and watched. Um. and the more that I communicated about. that with Les and the other people in. leadership in this group, the easier it. was for them to see where my. allegiances. lay, lie. And uh.

there was a meeting when they they. actually explicitly just told me like. you really should just cut your dad out. Like you should stop talking to him. He's toxic. And how did you react when you would. hear that? By that point, I was several years in. and. I just trusted them more than I trusted. my parents. So. I I. I heard it. I didn't. I did not do it then, but it did plant a seed of. the people who I have trusted to see my.

blind spots. are telling me that this is what's best. for me. And every time I talk to my dad, he's telling me I'm in a cult and he's. worried about me and it's starting to. wear on me. And eventually once I got. married, it was easy to sort of pass the buck to. my ex-husband or my husband at the time. and let him deal with it and then he. just kind of completely shut the door. and and I didn't talk to my dad for 6. years. Wow. Yeah, it was awful. To condition you.

from. doubting the group, you write about how. they got control and they would use. phrases like illegal questions. Can you give me an example of an illegal. question? Sure. An illegal question would be. maybe I married the wrong person. You're not allowed to ask that question. because you are already married. It's done. There's no There's no.

questioning. You just move forward. That's a big one. Wow. I'm [laughter]. like, "Oh my god. Where do we go from. there?". Joey. Yeah. Um I'm trying to think. of some other ones. You know, other. illegal questions would be more like um. that I'm thinking of right at the top of. my head is are spiritually related. Um. Did God call me to be a part of this. family? Did am I. Did I do the right thing by moving up. here instead of staying in LA?

Um. should I have taken this this acting. job? Um The questions that are. retrospective, I guess. I haven't thought of it in that term, but yeah, it's it's illegal questions. are things that would cause you to call. into question things that you've already. chosen. >> Mhm. You can't have doubt about anything. essentially in your life. >> Yeah, you really can't. Which is so it was so damaging. Getting. out of it and being on the other side of. that to not be allowed to question.

where you are in your life, how could. you ever grow? Well, that's the point really, right? Like if you're in a group like that, they don't want you to grow. They don't. want you to. >> They don't want you to think for. yourself, but I can imagine that creates. this like numbness in you where you just. start to get good at being like almost. about to ask yourself the question, nope, don't ask because that that I. shouldn't do that. And and then you once. you create a pattern within yourself, it's hard to revert that pattern. >> Yeah. Okay, we need to talk about One.

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chance I get. [laughter]. >> that you watched it. That's so You don't. even know. Like I am obsessed. Like I. could just pop episode one on again and. let's rewatch the whole thing. Um such a. fan. But again, it is so interesting and. and it is really the proof of like we. don't know what people are going through. and we see these celebrities or actors. or singers or whoever public facing and. you think you know their life. And while. you were on this huge TV show, you were. also dealing with this hell. >> Yeah. Can you take me to like what drew.

you to One Tree Hill? Like you're in. this cult at the time that you go to get. this job, right? >> Yeah. Okay, talk to me. What what drew you to One Tree Hill at. this time? >> [gasps and laughter]. >> I I was um. Well, they actually shot the pilot. without me. They shot it with somebody. else. I had gotten the script for it. I. It was called Ravens at the time. I. turned it down. I really wanted to just. focus on film and um. and I just said I this is I just got off. a soap opera in New York. I want to try. something different. So, I turned it.

down. Um a couple of grounded pilots. later, it came back around and they said. they're recasting. They're shooting in 2. weeks and will you please go screen test. for this role. So, I did. Love. Um how. involved cuz I think again, when I just. want to like clarify like when people. are listening to this and like hold on, wait. So, you're in a cult, but you're. still allowed to work. Like I think. people may get confused of like how. attached you need to be at the time. Like oh, you're allowed to go and work. and be without these people. >> Oh, right.

>> I mean? Like can you explain how. involved they were in your decision to. take the show and like how did that work. at the time? >> Yeah, that's a great point. Um. Yeah, that's one of the things that also. made it so insidious is that it wasn't a. join us, put on this robe, and let's go. all live in the forest together. Um. Yeah, there there was still a lot of. autonomy. I think that's sort of how he kept. everybody locked in because.

we were all really smart. Like. it this wasn't a group of of people who. were not smart. Like everyone was. ambitious and had careers, and so. he had to have known coming in that this. is not going to work if I try and ask. everybody to just move up north and be. live with me in this weird little house. big house. Um. >> [laughter]. >> So. yeah, it it it was very much um. communication based on.

daily activities, hanging out, lunches, um lots of phone calls, and email. chains, and. texting wasn't as much of a thing back. then, but we were in constant. community and communication with each. other. So it didn't feel like I mean, I. don't know that he had to work that hard. in in in that regard because he meaning. Les. Yep. Daddy gang. Um I always wanted to say that. >> [laughter]. >> Daddy gang? Daddy gang?

It's your moment. >> It's my moment. Get it, girl. Yes. [laughter]. Uh yeah, I so I think that was it it's. not like the traditional uh cult when. you think of that. You we're not all. living on a commune. I mean, there was a. big house that that set several people. all lived in at once, but they were also. their own families with with. jobs and other things going on um. that they all lived nearby. Uh. yeah, does that does that make sense? Does that help? Okay. >> That makes complete sense.

I completely understand. It's. with you and so if anything like when. you're starting a new job everyone feels. like oh I have no friends here what am I. you had this safety net and the support. system that was ever present so it. didn't make you ever feel like you were. alone which is huge to have especially. when you're going on new ventures in. your career and feeling like oh I I'm a. little out of place you're kind of never. out of place cuz you have this support. system. Yeah. You played Haley James. Scott. Yeah. Um in what ways did you.

relate to your character? Initially I. really related with the sort of awkward. girl next door thing that that felt very. comfortable for me. Um it it felt like who I really was deep. down and wasn't ever. allowed to be because. a lot of the roles I would get you know. I was blonde and. uh I had a big personality and so I. would get a lot of the these sort of. leading lady parts or you know ingenue. parts. But I always felt like I even say.

in the book I was like I feel like a. dumpster like trash panda like cleaning. dumpster lettuce out of my paws like. I've always just felt awkward and. >> [laughter]. >> like weird. And so it was fun to be able. to step into this character that felt. actually so much more like me than what. I was usually getting cast for so that. was fun. If you had to say what do you. think was the most iconic. Haley James Scott moment? I know that's. so hard. Give us one. Oh my god okay I I.

mean the most iconic Haley moment I it's. hard because so many of them were with. James Lafferty. Um I know. Uh you know that that kiss in the rain. when they when Nathan and Haley first. finally get together and they just like. they just have that kiss in the rain and. that hose with holes in it and freezing. cold water was pouring down on us it was. so fun. >> [laughter]. >> Like the reality was everyone you. thought it looked like rain. And James. and I had never kissed before and he.

was, you know, 17 and I was cradle. robbing at that point and you know, it. was just awkward. You're smashing teeth. and trying to you know, you're young. kids just like how do we kiss each other. on camera? I'm obsessed. >> It was fun. >> one of the most iconic scenes and I feel. like I do think of that when I think of. you guys so that was a good one. >> Yes. Um what is your favorite memory. just from the show? There are a lot but. there are not as many as I wish there. were because at some point I kind of.

just checked out emotionally. But I would say. early on. we there were always hurricane warnings. and hurricane. and and actual hurricanes that came. through. And when it wasn't too bad but it was. enough that they were like, hey. everybody just go inside for a little. while. >> Yeah. We would often stay at somebody's house. and the electricity would go out and. you'd light candles and sit around and. hang out and meet at the Waffle House. and be like, well we got the next 4.

hours at the Waffle House somebody bring. a deck of cards and you know, hopefully. the burners won't go out and we can keep. eating waffles. That that was fun. That was early days. of bonding when it was. getting to know each other trying to. figure out who who was who who fit where. and. yeah, I really loved that. It it makes. my heartbreak for you that you you know, just said like there were. not as many as I wish I had because. obviously you did the show for so long. and you write about in the book how. while you were filming.

the leaders of this cult that you were a. part of told you not to trust your. co-stars and to essentially stay away. from them. >> Yeah. Um how did isolating yourself. affect your dynamic on set? Well, I think I just. became. someone that. nobody really knew how to connect with. Mhm. When the cameras were rolling,

my guard all went down. I was 100%. present. I was there. It was a major catharsis for me, actually. The ability to. uh. just be completely free and vulnerable. Yeah. So, I That's one of the reasons. why I loved. being on the show and why I feel like it. saved my life in a lot of ways because. it was kind of the only place in my life. I could actually do that. >> Yep. But, when they said cut and it we went. back to just sitting in our cast chairs.

waiting, um. I. I would only let people in so far. And I. think. again, people in abusive relationships. can relate to that, too, because you. There's too much at stake. if you allow in someone else's. perception, judgment, ideas about your. relationship or the relationships that. you're a part of in your life. Mhm. So, whether it's a group of people or one. person,

a lot of people who are in abusive. situations will hide the abuse because. I Like, I don't know why I'm living in. this misery, but I don't want your. opinion about why I'm living in this. misery because then I'll have to maybe. really deal with it in a different way. Yeah, it's almost like you kind of. you're so aw-. you are aware that something is off and. weird, but you're so in in like immersed.

in that world. >> almost. >> Yeah, that it's kind of like you you. know that people wouldn't fully. understand the extent of it, so it's not. worth letting them in at all. >> Yeah. But, I wonder like on that set. with all these like young people, like. did you have moments as much as you were. like really being manipulated by this. cult? Like, did you have moments where. you were like. like. what what am I doing? Like, or were you. still couldn't really see it at that.

point? I couldn't see what am I doing. I. I felt mostly superior to other people. Um, and I felt mostly like. they just can't understand and I've got. an answer. I've I've figured I mean, that's Yep. any cult, that's the idea is we've got. something special that you don't have. Unfortunately, that really colored a lot. of my relationships with people, but the. thing is. your gut never goes away, I don't think.

I don't think so either. >> So, I still felt this sense of. self-loathing and like it's an unending. ladder that you're just constantly. trying to climb to achieve, to do the. things that are going to save you or. whatever you're trying to. whatever enlightenment your level you're. trying to reach. Yeah. And. I was so. in that zone that uh everything I did. was every interaction I had was was. colored by that and I did.

at the same time. because I had this sort of. self-loathing, I also really. uh. I guess that maybe was jealous of other. people on the show, too. Not Not the way. that women are jealous of each other in. a cliche way, but more of. the freedom to be a mess, the freedom to. just explore life and ask questions that. weren't illegal. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Just the freedom to like live your life. >> Yeah. I was jealous of the of the. freedom to live life and and I but I was.

so committed to my belief system. that I would never allow myself to cross. over into that and I I it just created a. a difficult dynamic for having a. relationship like a joy just has a you. can only go so far. There's a there's a. wall. When now when you look back like if you. were honest with yourself cuz you can. now see it in a different way like. what do you think they all thought of. you? Well, I I think they. thought that I was stubborn and.

uh. weird and IN A CULT. >> [laughter]. >> EVENTUALLY, YEAH, EVENTUALLY THEY did I. think. Obviously. [laughter]. No, they knew. They knew. They knew. because I I think they probably felt. really bad for me. >> How soon do you think they knew? Give us. by season. Two years. So yeah, I would. say by season two they were like. Something. >> this is a like a cult. I think this is. >> [laughter]. >> probably bad. Did anyone ever try to say.

anything to you? Well, I did have one. really good friend who was a she was one. of the set PAs and I trusted her so. much. I think honestly because she was. Catholic and she was the only religious. person on set and so I was like another. religious person. So you may not be as far along. spiritually as I am. >> [laughter]. >> However, You're like, do you want me to introduce. you to Les?

I've got a great guy for you. >> [laughter and gasps]. >> Stop, it's so dark. But I did trust her and she and her. husband were wonderful people and my. husband at the time and I used to hang. out with them all the time and we'd go. over their house for wine nights and it. was like a safe haven and so she. definitely tried and she again was like. my mother, very smart, long game, like. knew I was involved in something. unhealthy and just wanted to slowly. present questions but she knew she.

couldn't push too hard or I'd push her. away. >> [snorts]. >> Um really really good friend and um so. appreciate that, but nobody else on the. show. No, nobody ever said I mean Tyler once. just flat out came out and was like, "Uh. are you in a cult?" No, stop. [laughter]. Stop. I love him so much. >> Stop. >> It should tell you so much about his. personality. He's so great. >> And when when someone would say that to. you like, "What did you say?". >> No, I was like, "No, I hate that people. can't understand.

the depth of relationship that happens. when you find your chosen family and you. just commit to them. Why does it have to. be a cult? Why does it have to be weird? Like I feel so bad for you that you. don't understand what it's like to have. this kind of depth of relationship. How. sad and shallow must your life be? >> [laughter]. >> Oh man, you doing that even now Joy, I'm. like, "Oh my god, I feel like shit." But. I could see how people around you then. would just like roll their eyes and be. like, "Okay, I'm literally walking back. on set." Like there's no point. So you. can and and you have again, we've all.

been there when someone genuinely. believes something so deep to their. core. There is no point to try to change. that. Everyone is on their own path and. journey and you got to let people figure. it out on their own through their own. time. It doesn't mean they didn't care, but I can imagine it's like, "What are. we all going to do have an. intervention?" Like we're here to do a. job. She's nice when she's around us. That's all we care about, you know? >> That that's it. It just became a. professional environment and they did I. know Paul Johansson and probably Greg.

Prange, our executive producer and a. couple other people had a meeting at one. point like. Let let's talk about this. Uh do we need. to be worried about her? You know, uh. is she financially this looks bad. Is. she in danger? Like what do we need to. do? But I think at the end of the day. they realized exactly what you just. said. And nobody can wake you up but you. Like. at some point it's just the right time. You write about how at the time you. couldn't be friends with Sophia Bush.

because of your own insecurities and. militant beliefs. What was it about. Sophia that made you uncomfortable? I I think we were both. approaching. life from a similar way. Right. But from. opposite perspectives. So, the motive I. think was similar in. she she I I didn't I'm not her. I didn't. grow up as her, but I I think she uh. grew up with some very specific beliefs.

about life and how things should be. done. And um and and pursued that. And. that can also be really wonderful. But. the way that we were approaching it. maybe was too similar and because they. the conclusions that we had come to. about. life and God and all those things were. very different. There just was no space for. listening. She would have been much more. quick to listen to my perspective and.

uh hear me than I would have been at the. time. >> Yeah. But I think fundamentally there. was probably a similarity. I mean, I. think for a while um. Brooke Davis and Haley didn't get along. on set anyways. >> [laughter]. >> or on the screen. So, it kind of worked. But like was it difficult on set where. you're just like not getting completely. along with someone, but like you don't. know how to handle it and you're young? >> Yeah, those were those days were hard. because I. it it was this sort of um and I think I.

wrote about this, too. I know I did um. the paralysis and desire at the the. feeling of like I want to connect with. you. I want to be friends with you. Why can't we? Why don't you know how or why don't I. know how? What is wrong? And yet we have. to show up and pretend like we're really. close. And so, we're going through the. motions of. close friendship, but not actually. knowing how to connect. >> It's hard. It's hard. I mean, I I think. could feel that in in romantic. relationships, too. Where you know you.

love someone, you know you have all. these things in common. You just like why are we not What's. going on? >> Yeah, why is it not working? >> Yeah. But especially when you're that. young and you have so many other friends. and so many other things. At some point. you're just like, "Ugh, I don't know.". >> Yes. Yes. Like all good. Let's just. leave it at what it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um have you guys talked. about that and like just kind of gone. through everything that happened back. then in the day or. No. A little bit. Not not as much as I. would like. Um. And you on Drama Queens we've definitely.

talked a lot about our time back then. and what was hard and. how great it was to reconnect and the. feelings of um unraveling. things that were so mysterious to us at. the time. But no, it's it's an ever-evolving. journey. There are still plenty of. people in my life that I. Man, shame is a tough thing. Like I. One of the reasons why I really feel. passionate about telling this story now. whereas before I was so reluctant at.

first, but. I think shame gets smaller and smaller. the more you expose it and the more you. just open up and say this this is my. mess. Like I. But. even having conversations with my. step-sister or like my little brother. and having those moments of like, "Hey, I disappeared for 10 years and. I'm really sorry. Like I don't.

I've had those moments very briefly, but. it's painful cuz it's shame, you know? >> I can't imagine, Joy, honestly, like and. I appreciate you talking about that. because I feel like again. back to an abusive relationship, like. it takes so long for someone to just. even like get back to. You can't even get back to who you were. because you were so young. So, it's. like, who am I without this abusive. situation that I was in for so long? And.

I think like the repairing of the. relationships, from what I understand. from a lot of people that went through a. long abusive situation, is like it's. almost just like this huge heavy thing. that you know is sitting in the corner, but you're like, "Fuck, but first I got. to make sure I'm really good cuz then I. I first have to make sure I'm good so. then I can begin to rebuild these. relationships because if I'm still not. good, then it's like what is the use of. reaching out and having these difficult. conversations?" On top of that, the. difficult conversations you do kind of.

have to acknowledge what happened and. it's again and it's again and it's. again. And it's like taking. accountability and also like asking for. grace and understanding. And it's like. there's no right way to get. back into a relationship with someone. after being a different person in the. relationship. And it's like it's a lot. I have a lot of empathy for you. Thank. you. I I. you're you're speaking so eloquently. about it and I it's really interesting. to talk with you because I feel like. even just hearing the way that you're.

phrasing things puts things in. perspective for me that, you know, I. lived it, it's all in my brain in a. jumble, but. um. as much as I was able to put on paper. my thoughts, there's still so many. things that are tangled that I still try. and unwind. But what you were just. saying about needing to feel like I'm. I'm good, I'm okay before I go reach. out. >> [snorts]. >> For me. that was more isolating. Like I needed. to.

connect with people at. not even necessarily in a in a. way of like, "Hey, clean me up." You. know, I that was obviously I have to do. my own work, but. >> [snorts]. >> um. experiencing the grace that you just. said and that the forgiveness and the. looking across at somebody who's just. like, I made mistakes, too, and. it's okay. Like, we're all doing that. That's welcome to being a human being. Hello. Good morning. Welcome.

>> I think that's the biggest moment that a. lot of people in abusive situations have. this moment where they're like, "Whoa, I. thought everyone could was going to just. like never forgive me and turn their. backs." Yeah. And everyone's like, "Babe, we've been waiting for you." Yes. Like, we love you. Welcome back. >> Yes. And I think it's like. >> It's a tumbling. Because again, when. you're in the abusive situation, the. abuser makes you feel like none of them. love you. They will be They will not be. there if you leave me. I'm the only. thing you have. And so, you believe.

that. And then the minute you leave, everyone's like, "Oh my god, who's going. to Who's going to catch her first? We're. all here. We're ready with open arms.". And that must be very overwhelming. It. was that That was the biggest shock. leaving. Because it has to get so bad. that you're willing to be alone in the. world. rather than stay another second in that. situation. And then it turns out you're. not alone. And then it turns out you're. not. It's the biggest surprise and the. biggest gift. We have so much still to.

go through. We're not there yet. But. that makes me so happy to know. because I think so many people listening. are like, "Oh my god, I needed to hear. that cuz I They may be sitting in their. car listening to this going home to that. abuser being like, wait. Yeah. Maybe. this is the sign that like cuz I do feel. that right now. I feel like I only have. him or I only have her. And then it's. like Yeah. they are making you feel that. way. On the One Tree Hill thing, because I do. know and I talk about this a lot with. actors, like there is this like. voyeuristic thing that fans become.

obsessed with these dynamics. And that's. why I was asking about the Sophia thing. because it was interesting seeing you. write about it in the book because we. all fell in love with you and her and. all of on this show. I have to ask because. it's Call Her Daddy. Um. >> [laughter]. >> fans are speculating that things between. you and Hillary are not great. Not. friends anymore. Don't follow each other. on social media. I don't want to get too. much into it cuz I know it's like this. is your personal life. I just wondered. if you have anything to like say about. it? I I love Hillary. I have always and.

will always and I don't have any problem. with her. There've been some bizarre. misunderstandings that I really hope we. can figure out one day, but. I. I I love that girl. Yeah. Thank you for. sharing. >> Sure. Um have you had any conversations. about signing up for the reboot? No, this is it's way too early to even talk. about that. I know I don't know if it. was a press release or something leaked. or I don't know. I mean I had heard. about it, but. >> Haley, [laughter]. we're going back. Okay, good to know.

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7th, available in Target stores and on. target.com. I'm curious. Now back into So, you're in. One Tree Hill, we're watching all of. this success. and then the rumors obviously start. Is. she in a cult? What is happening? How. was that like. affecting your career outside of One. Tree Hill? Cuz I knew you wanted to do. more things and didn't you have like an. opportunity on Broadway that they. stopped? Like, how much did they have a. hold of your career? Mhm. Yeah, that was.

tough. It was a tough pill to swallow. Um I Yeah, I mean, gosh, we started out. on the show and it was budding and it. was so successful and you know, the fans. at TRL and now the shows everywhere and. we're doing Teen Vogue and I'm getting. auditions for huge studio movies or. screen tests rather. It was like they. were they were much farther along than I. had ever been because once you have that. kind of exposure, the studios are much. more likely to to sign off on you on. their list. Um. and so it was it was an exciting time.

and. I was so far along in in my submission. and abdication to this group. that I. And and the thing was that it was. disguised as submission to God and so um. in that from that place. everything about my career started to. then funnel through the group because I. didn't trust my own instinct to know if. I was on the right path or taking the. right job.

I think we all struggle enough with. making decisions, especially if you're. somebody with ADHD who is just like, I. can't I can stand in front of a line at. Starbucks for 10 minutes and everyone. hates me. Like so let alone big life. decisions, it's so paralyzing if you. don't. know that you can kind of make any. choice and it's all going to work out. okay. So, yeah, there were I I was cast as. Belle in Beauty and the Beast and gave. that up at the. at the advice, the heavy-handed advice.

of. um. less the less character in the book. Um. there were some really big movies that I. was on a short list for, auditioned for, was pinned for, and then I'd call my. agent and be like, you know what? I. actually don't I don't want I don't want. to do this. I don't want to continue. auditioning for this. Why do you think. they didn't want you to do it? Well, I I. think it's just control. Like the the. more that I.

worked, the less they would see me. The more that I worked, the more. confidence I would be gaining in my. abilities and my creativity. You know, if I just stayed playing one character. for 10 years and I never did anything. else, then they know where I am all the time, basically. Um. I'm not gaining a sense of. uh. a freedom in tra- traveling all over the. world. I'm not meeting new people cuz. they they kind of had a handle on who. was on set, who the people were that I.

was working with. They knew how to. control my perspectives of all the. people. But if I'm meeting new people, if I'm in. New York and I'm and I'm in a new show, if I'm traveling to Greece to film a. movie, if I'm they there was just no way. to control that. They also controlled. your finances. Yes, ma'am. Okay. >> [laughter]. >> How did that come to be and did you have. any hesitations when you handed over. your finances to these people?

Yes, I did. I did. >> Okay. Your gut never goes away. >> Nope. I I got married. um to another group member and. uh. very Christian tradition, maybe in other. religions too, I don't know, where you. uh merge your finances when you get. married. >> Okay. Um. I think there's probably a lot of. secular people who also merge their. finances when they get married as a as a. sign of. unity and we're doing this together.

Like great. Uh. and so that's what I did. I just did the. dutiful Christian wife thing and merged. my accounts and. it never. it didn't occur to me of course that I. was going to be taken advantage of. It. was more just that gut check of like. this is mine. Yeah. Like I've been. working really hard for all of this and. um.

I'm not sure that I should just be. randomly. adding someone else's name to the. account, but it's I'm going to marry. him, so I guess it's okay. >> [laughter]. >> So you end up marrying who was the cult. leader's son and you talk about him as. QB in the book. Um. how would you describe your relationship. at first with this man? Playful and. uh. easy. Um we didn't have a lot in common.

There there wasn't a lot of intellectual. stimulation, but there was. I mean. I was I kind of ran out of options. Like. I I. I couldn't date a non-Christian. I. couldn't. um. really date anybody outside of the group. or certainly not anybody who lived. anywhere outside of that area. So yeah, it just became this sort of. arranged situation.

>> Can you explain the concept that you. write about in the book about spiritual. authority in relationships? >> Yeah. Super typical in many um Christian. communities. This idea that um. the man is the a spiritual authority in. a household. So a spiritual authority. would be I think as far as I understood. it in the group, it was the man. it basically gets the last word on. everything, and he gets the final say,

and you really are not. allowed to question him. You can't. question his decisions. You can't know. about deep intimate things in his life. He has to go to other men for that. But, he's responsible for you, and he's. supposed to know all the deep intimate. things about your life. Mhm. That's how. it was presented to me, but not in those. words. Otherwise, I would have been. like, y'all crazy. >> [laughter]. >> Wait, let me clarify, Alex, that's not. how it was presented. >> Yeah, yeah. It was a way better way that.

they talked about [laughter] it. Um you. save yourself for marriage, but. ultimately. you write about having no sexual desire. for your husband at the time. How did. this impact the way you understood sex? >> It was so difficult. Um. I don't know how people in other. cultures who have arranged marriages do. it. I can only come from my Western. perspective, but I don't want to assume. that that's the only way of doing.

things, but. for me, based on my upbringing, um. and I was really I like I said, I was. boy crazy. Like, I had a crazy sex. drive. It's kind of amazing that I. didn't have sex until I was married. >> [laughter]. >> Um. it felt like. uh. this promise that I had been given as a. good evangelical. was a big crock. Like, what the heck? I. thought if I saved myself for marriage,

then the promise is amazing sex, and. super deep intimacy, and nothing's ever. as good, and it's just like the best. thing ever. God created sex, and it's. just going to be the best thing ever. And then. we have sex, and it's like. why do I feel so sad? Why why is this. not. I don't feel more connected to you. I. feel farther away from you. I. I it's. it wasn't and and I don't think that. necessarily had anything to do with.

saving myself for marriage. It was just. that I married the wrong person. I mean, that also is hard to say because I have. an amazing daughter and so is anything. wrong? Like here I am hopefully able to. help a lot of people. So, it's hard to. say that any of those choices were. wrong, but. uh in the moment I definitely felt like. oh no, this is this can't be it. This is. bad. When you realized that obviously I know. you wrote about in the book, which was. very. sad about this.

schedule. that was essentially implemented into. your relationship. Can you talk about. that? It's so it's so wild to even just. hear you say that it's sad because. >> I know. I haven't talked to a lot of. people about that. I wrote it and just. was like. okay, I wrote it, move on, keep going. Um. that I to clarify Yeah. daddy gang. >> Yes. Uh that.

it was I didn't have this attraction. I. didn't have the drive. Um. really ever. We just weren't connected. We weren't the right people for each. other and so. um. because I was so disinterested in. sex. I was then. asked to. go on a schedule basically of like. here's how you can you just have to do. it. Just do it. This is your duty. This. is your job as a wife. Your emotions.

will fall in line. If you do it enough. then eventually you will find a way to. enjoy it. You will find a way to feel. connected. And you know, it's at that point you're. like, again, the things that you hear, if you heard it right away, you'd be. like, this shit's crazy. I'm out. But, when you're that far down the line, and. you have so much at stake, and now I'm. in a marriage, and now I'm I'm tied up. with and I've no other friends outside. of this group, and I've I've made a. commitment, and I take marriage. seriously, and I.

made a promise before God. Like, this is. something I really want to figure out. how to make it work. So, I. I hated it, but I was like, okay, if. this is what I'm supposed to do, I will. just. I'll just make sure that it's happening. every, you know, Well, he was back and forth between. uh. the Pacific Northwest and Wilmington a. lot, so the schedule had more to do with. when he was in town, but um yeah, it was. it it was it a routine that we.

that I had to participate in. in order to keep the peace in my. marriage. When he would come into town, would you like. Oh my god, my god, like I just my. stomach dropped every single time. In. fact, it really affected my. relationships afterwards, like other. boyfriends that I would have, when I had. to go pick them up from the airport, I. had so much PTSD from showing up at the. airport to see him, knowing that I was. going to have to start this sex schedule. for the next like 2 weeks or 3 weeks or. whatever.

Um. And it's so sad because he. like, the poor guy, like, never had a. shot, was raised by this narcissist. He's. He's thrust into a marriage with a girl. that's not right for him. He's doing the. best that he can. He's been fed all. these lies about men and machismo and. warriors and all this that like. he was raised in that. So, it it was. just a mess all around. No, it it just. makes me really. Yes, it is sad, Joy. It is sad to hear.

you because I think a lot of women can. relate to that of not wanting to do. something, but knowing to keep the. peace, that is the way to go and it's so. frustrating because a lot of people, unless you're involved in something, don't understand how to break the cycle. because a lot of times I think as women. we're just taught like it's better to. just appease the situation and just like. not cause a problem rather than speaking. up for ourselves and trying to get out.

of it because that could lead to. violence, which you write about in the. book. There's so many things that can come. from going against the grain. So, sometimes you just fall in line. It's. exactly what you were talking about with. your Paris story, by the way. Like. that's the same thing that like I'm. stuck in the situation. I just want to. How do I make it just go away? Just get. it over with. It'll be done. Maybe this. will help. Maybe this will be the thing. that brings us together. It's. It's a reasonable thing to assume. because there are so many marriage. therapists out there who will tell you. when they're looking at a couple who's.

been married for 25 years and they're. not interested in each other anymore. They're like, "Listen, you have to go. through the motions sometimes because. it'll help you remember who you were. together a long time ago." It's not. crazy advice. It's just crazy advice in. that circumstance. >> Yes. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. >> Yeah. That was a good one. Um at this. time also I wanted to just like kind of. talk about the juxtaposition of like we. have Haley and Nathan being this it. couple on television. Did you ever catch. yourself like. loving your TV marriage and almost like.

using that as a form of escapism from. your real marriage? >> Oh, for sure. I did. Yes. And and only. in the moments when the cameras are. rolling and so it worked with the. storyline. I mean. Nathan and Haley had great chemistry and. so I I leaned into it. Um. but I. thank God James and I were able to. really maintain a totally professional. relationship. Like I just never. I always sort of saw him in real life as. a brotherly figure and he was lovely. Um.

so we never crossed that boundary and I. never had to worry about having feelings. for. like that would have been really really. difficult. Um, but no. I but I just knew. also like because of the controlling. aspect of this cult like. were they okay with your like having. even just like an on-screen romantic. relationship where you're having to kiss. this co-star? Like how did that go? Nobody cared except my husband. I mean, he he hated it, but um, he also wanted. me to quit acting so I would stop making.

out with other guys. >> There you go. Yeah. There you go. Um, okay, so as you're I'm we're kind of. getting towards like now like the big. moment where you're going to realize you. need to leave, but I want to talk about. and I know I love that you mentioned. this earlier. There is an obvious disconnect between. you and your husband at the time, but. something so beautiful came out of your. relationship which is your daughter. >> Yes. And that you write about so.

beautifully of like. she's your everything. And so you did. get something incredible out of such a. horrific experience for those 10 years. Um, when you had this child with your. husband. like had you guys talked about wanting. to start a family together? He wanted to. I wasn't ready because I. was miserable. And it it it just took a. long time. I mean, it it took. long enough for me to get to a place. where I felt like.

okay, we're we're happy enough. Like. we're friendly enough. It seems like. we're on a pretty good track. So, let's. just. I think we're ready now. I didn't know when you're supposed to. have a baby or not supposed to or. I didn't know what to do, but I knew. that. I was. not in misery and I and I wanted. I did want a baby. I'd always wanted a.

baby. I always wanted to be a mom. >> Yeah. Um but I didn't want to do it in a. time when I was full of emotional. turmoil. And that took about 6 years to. get to that point. So, you talk about your onset of One Tree. Hill. Someone's like, "Are you in a. cult?" You're like, "No, you don't get. it." [laughter]. Take me to the moment. that it did click for you. Oh, this is. not one big happy family. This is a. cult.

>> Yeah. When did you realize? It was after. the show, unfortunately. It had just. ended in November, I believe. I was in LA in February and pilot. season. And. I I mean, there's no auditioning up in. the Pacific Northwest. It wasn't a life. that I was realistically going to be. able to live and keep my insurance or. the only insurance or and the only. income that we had. And all the money. was gone at that point. So, which I. didn't totally know, but. they knew. So, I think that's probably.

why my ex and his dad were like, "Yeah, maybe you should get an apartment in. LA." Wait, >> [laughter]. >> maybe time to get back on set. Let's get. you a job. Uh so, I. Yeah, we were we were in LA. And I uh. had been in therapy. I felt more like I. would like to talk with someone about. all of the misery that I'm experiencing. and I would like that person to be. outside of this family. And. as I did that, the therapy was immensely.

helpful for me and started to teach me. about boundaries. And because my. ex-husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapist was. addressing with me was, "Hey, not okay. for somebody to be physically violent. towards you, around you. This This is. not okay on a on a routine basis.". >> Yeah. Absolutely. And so, I started to implement. boundaries. And uh. And I think after that, after I.

extracted my daughter and myself from. um a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things. from alternative perspectives. My therapist, I remember. probably 2 months after that, was like, "Are we ready to call it a cult yet?". Which was brave of her. And I I was. like, "No! >> [laughter]. >> Like, I would not be that stupid. Like,

no. That is not me. Guess what? Me! Joyce. Yep. She was right. It took It took a minute, though. It. like it maybe I was very uncomfortable. with it, and I. I had to. to really sit with that for a while. But. once it Once I Once she said that, and. all the pieces really started to like. lock into place, it became clear that it was really. unhealthy. I think something really.

beautiful also that you're talking. about, again, to anyone in a situation. similar with these themes of. essentially being isolated to then be. abused and manipulated is the minute you. have someone who doesn't want you to. interact with anyone outside of the. people they can control, that is the. biggest red flag. Because you just. getting a little bit of. an opportunity to speak to someone that. is licensed to speak with you and help. you set boundaries, which every single.

human being should have boundaries in. their life with other humans, and you're. seeing this like it was such an. opportunity for you, again, to grow and. to recognize like what you didn't want. in life. But that completely threatens. your ex-husband's ability to control. you. And so, I think that for people. listening, I hope you can take it if. like if you feel like the only person. you can constantly turn to is the person. who is hurting you the most, that is your sign that you are in an. abusive situation. They need They can.

only control you if you are alone with. them. Of course, you can go to work and. you can have friends, but you know that. there's a different level of going to. work. And when's the last time you. actually had a girls' night? And he. didn't have tabs on you or You know what. I mean? It's like it it it's so quick. that it flips. Cuz like I said to you. earlier, like, "Oh, so you were going to. work." Like. you can look like you're living a very. normal life. It's just inside of you you. have these guardrails that you know that.

you can't go outside of. And it's really. difficult to get away from that. cuz you become conditioned. Yeah. Yeah, you think that you're. you think that you're not alone, but the. more you. your gut is telling you you feel like. you're completely isolated. Can you. share with us and I know we talked about. this earlier, but coming back to like. the process of leaving and untangling. your life from these people in this. cult, like, what was that experience. like? Cuz again, we talked about how.

it's terrifying and then what was your. experience? It was terrifying. It was. my only friends, so I thought, Mhm. suddenly turned on me and they were. showing up at my house to you know, for. custody exchanges, like. trying to intimidate me and and like. flanking my ex on either side, like. goons, just ready to watch me or ready. to you know, film film me doing I like.

to have your best friends who you shared. your most vulnerable intimate secrets. with suddenly turn around and like. overnight just. that's. >> it. You're You're If you're not with us, you're against us. If you're not part of. us, you're the enemy. And to be treated like an enemy. is is from someone who who you've been. very very close with all of a sudden. no conversation, no what There There. just was no willingness to see because.

the stakes are so high for them, too. >> Yeah. So you know, like it's understandable. objectively, but. >> Yeah. You go into this custody battle and and. you write about something I thought was. really interesting about. Can you talk. to me. regarding the lawyers and the court and. how they reacted to you explaining this. cult experience to them? This is This is. one of the most frustrating things about. all of it. Um. because I I began to realize how broken. the family court system is in this.

country. The The saying is no bruise, no case. If. you don't have a physical. altercation with someone, they don't. consider it abuse in the court because. how do you. legislat. or even qualify. mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse? I. mean, that's that's the hardest one, too, because the courts are like, "I. don't want to touch anything religious.

It's church and state. Like, no." Call. Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. Okay, here in LA, it's sunny. It's 75°. and honestly, winter doesn't really. exist, which is great, but it also made. me realize how much I missed, you know, bundling up and being out in the snow. and wearing the coats that I have. bought, right? So now, every year, I. make it a point for an annual ski trip. with my girls. For our last trip, we.

booked a stay on Airbnb and it honestly. set the tone for the entire weekend. We. found the coziest cabin right next to. the mountain. So, getting out the door. in the mornings was easy even with all. of our gear on. And when we would come. back from skiing, we felt right at home. We had space to kind of spread out, be. comfy, we had these couches to crash on, a fireplace where we would sit around. with hot cocoa recapping the day, doing. our favorite thing to do, gossip and. girl talk, and do all the good things. So, when it's that cold outside, also.

having a place that feels warm and. comfortable to come back to, it really. does make all the difference. And that. is why as I plan my next ski trip, booking a stay on Airbnb is a no-brainer. for me. Instead of feeling like a. tourist, you can settle in and explore. the neighborhood, grab groceries nearby, and really live like a local wherever. you go. And if you know you want to take. a trip, but you don't know where yet, don't worry, Airbnb makes that part. easy, too. I love the guest favorites. I.

am constantly browsing it, even if I. don't have a trip. I'm like, "You know. what? I'm going on guest favorites.". It's basically a collection of the most. loved homes on Airbnb, and it's such a. good way to get you inspired for your. next trip. Stop fantasizing about your. dream trip, and start planning it on. Airbnb. I want to ask you this mostly because I. do think it's so indicative of the like. exploitativeness of this dynamic and the. abuse of like. through the custody battle, you write.

about how you had to spend so much money. in court. Like. around the number, can you share like. how much these people took from you. financially? Well, when I was in the group, they took. $2 million from me. When I got out, I had about 250 left, which is not. nothing. I mean, that's a significant. amount of money. But, the court costs in total were about.

350, 350,000, and that was. So So, I left the group. with. money in the bank that was already. committed to other things. >> Yeah. Like my mortgage, like like the um. which I ended up having to do a short. sale on. Um like like the IRS, like. so so many unpaid. bills, and there were lawsuits I didn't. know about that I had to I mean there it.

was absolute financial abuse. It was. just a total mess. So, everything you. basically made from One Tree Hill. >> just gone. Oh my [snorts] god. Another relatable thing about this for. so many women who are. in abusive relationships is the. financial tie that they're like, "I. can't leave because. what am I going to do? Who's going to. pay for my kids? Who's going to pay for. the groceries?" A lot of them don't have. a skill because they've been in a in a. controlled environment for so long, so. they're like, "I can't What What kind of.

job am I going to get?". The guy controls all the money, and. I. I was going to say my advice would be. get out anyway and just trust that it's. going to be okay, but that's a really. cheap thing to say because. I'm not I don't know every single. person's situation, but. I I I hate I guess the heart behind what. I am meaning is that. I hate for any woman anyone to be stuck.

in a situation because of finances, and. um. I know what it's like to be a single mom. and not know where next month's rent is. coming from. And um. I learned a lot in that time. I grew a. lot, and. it did God did always show up for me. Like something always worked out every. month. >> Yeah. Um It's beautiful. So, I can you. know, like I I'm not here to give. advice, but I can tell what happened for. me. But I and I appreciate the sentiment.

of it. It's like leaving something bad. Like you will find something I believe. in the world. Like you will find. something good that comes to you when. you can get out of something like that. As we're kind of like finishing this. conversation, I feel like obviously I I. want everyone to go read your book and. and there's so much in it that is so. even more detailing of like how someone. can get into the situation because I am. so understanding that at face value.

someone can roll their eyes and be like, "What do you mean you were in a cult?". Like you asked for this. Like again, and. that's why someone needs to listen to. this episode and then they'll be like, "Okay, wait, nevermind. That's. crazy.". Um but can you share like what do you. think the biggest misconception people. have about cults is? It's the same misconception I had, which. is why I didn't think I was in one. because I was like, [laughter]. "No, cults are crazy people and they all. live together in some weird big house. and they all [laughter].

wear the same thing and they're they're. all um sleeping with the leader and. they're all, you know, he's got a. million babies with all these ladies and. they're doing all kinds of crazy. and drinking weird things and they don't. interact with the rest of the world. Like it's everything that you think of. from a 1970s flower child, you know, Yes. bizarro worlds cults. Uh. and we've we've come a long way because. uh there is no real. definition of a cult. You can't even use.

it in court, the word cult. It's not uh. viable. You have to say high demand. group. Wow, I didn't know that. >> Yeah, there's there's no legal. definition of cults. Like Catholicism I. guess is a cult, Christianity, Buddhism, uh. SoulCycle like I said before. Like I I. love SoulCycle by the way. No no. I'm just saying. [laughter] I know some. people get real hyped on it, so I'm just. >> [gasps]. >> Nobody get what you were saying. >> There's no There's no definition, so. it's it's like we've used it as this. slang for things that are super weird.

That is so helpful because I agree. I. think people picture like cloaks and. like this like voodoo And it's. like, no, The Illuminati and all these. things. Yeah, Like you're on set of One. Tree Hill, we're all watching you and. it's all going down. Like it is just. you can get into a situation that you. don't even know what it is because it's. presenting at first as this loving. person that's wanting to just be your. friend and help you out. >> Yeah. So you get out, and now I'm curious, um,

kind of like the aftermath of. how has your experience of going from. being so controlled and manipulated by. these people impacted your now ability. to trust people? Brilliant question. Yeah, yeah, the doubt on that. I mean, it's it's really difficult. I I joke about it a lot. I'm like, I. don't trust anybody, you know. >> [laughter]. >> But. I don't.

I was just talking about this over. coffee this morning with a girlfriend. I. I don't want to go through the world as. someone who doesn't trust people. That's not how we're supposed to live. I. don't I really believe that's not how. we're supposed to live. I I I also. am really grateful for the lesson. that. it's okay to give people the benefit of. the doubt, but maybe not credit.

If that makes sense. Like, you don't. you don't get to walk into my life and. automatically get the free credit card. of like. friend Here's the friendship credit. card. Swipe it whenever you want. Do. whatever you want with it. Um, but I I will give you the benefit of. the doubt if I see something. weird or like every That's been the. hardest part to navigate, Alex, is just. who Who is. Who's just normal and has.

weird baggage? Like hello, every single. human. Yeah. When is the baggage something that's. affecting my boundaries in a way that I. I just can't engage with? >> Yeah. When is the baggage something that. triggers me, but maybe I can learn. something and maybe you can learn. something and it's worth pushing. through? Yeah. I don't It's a. case-by-case basis. >> going to say like I was going to ask you. how do you learn to trust yourself. again, but I feel like it's kind of the. same. it's in the same vein of like you're.

you're going to learn to trust yourself. as you're going to trust other people. And when you're feeling something that. doesn't make you feel good about that. person, you're not trusting them as. much, you then have to turn inward and. be like, "Is this because of my trauma. or is this because this person is. actually showing something that is. pushing my boundaries and making me. uncomfortable?" And you have to be able. to discern the two. And you're not. always going to get it right. It You're. You're not. You're just going to have to. at some point let go and trust. >> My last question is like, "What do you.

ultimately. hope people take away from reading your. book?" Well, I hope they never join a. cult. >> [laughter]. >> No, Daddy gang. No cults. >> I I just. I hope people feel like they're not. alone. I've said that before. Like I I. really I really want people to to feel. like. um. their own shame, their own mistakes. are.

faceable. That there's hope and that shame Like. please don't live in shame. Don't let it. keep you closed off and shut down and. not talk about things. You have to let it out. You have to let. it out of your body. This is This is the. only way to to actually find hope and. move forward. So, I really hope that that's um an an. alleviating thing for people. >> It is. It's more than alleviating. It is. extremely encouraging and hopeful. Um.

I cannot thank you enough for coming and. having this conversation with me. I. >> Thank you. can already feel just how. impactful this is going to be and I. commend you for writing this book. I. think it's like so incredible of you to. be able to like pen to paper put down. something that consumed your life for 10. years and I think a lot of a lot of. people are going to find not only like. comfort in it but feel very connected to. you and I think you have like a very. incredible story but just you as a human.

being like sitting with you I'm like. you're very inspiring person. Um and I'm so excited to see what you. continue to do. Like thank you for. taking the time. It was literally an. honor. Thank you. >> Thank you, Alex. Well, I I think you're. inspiring, too. I really I really do. I. think you're so smart and so interesting. and I love the way that you just that. you just embrace life and run kind of. run freely. Like open your openness is. really really engaging and inviting and. and I want more of it in my life. So, I'm I'm really grateful I got to spend.

some time with you today. >> [music].