Alanis Morissette: Anger, Attachment, & Postpartum

What is up daddy gang? It is your. founding father Alex Cooper with call. her daddy. >> Morset. Welcome to call her daddy. >> Thank you for having me. >> You are such an icon. Let me just gather. myself. Let me just hold on. I need to. take a deep breath. >> So do I. Then. >> all of my friends were like, "No. pressure." And I'm like, "Okay, well now. you're making me feel pressure." One of. my friends specifically is the biggest. fan and she's like, "I'll just come do.

the interview for you." And I was like, "You need. >> What are their questions?". >> No, literally, she was like blowing me. up. Shout out Meg, if you're watching. this, I love you. I hope I do you. justice. Um, okay. I need to give you. your proper intro. At 21 years old, you. shattered records, selling 33. million copies of your album, Jagged. Little Pill, winning five Grammys, including best album. And since then, you really have continued to release.

music that I think gives people the. permission to feel angry and messy and. complicated. And I just love every. single thing that you stand for. So, thank you so much for giving me your. time. It is such an honor. >> Oh my gosh. Thanks for saying that and. mirroring me so generously. >> Of course. >> Of course. Um, okay. Your song, Ironic, will forever be one of my favorite songs. to scream in the car with my. girlfriends, as I'm sure it is millions. of other people watching. But what does.

it mean to you that new generations. continue to discover your music and to. fall in love with you and what you stand. for? First, when the record came out in. 1995, it was a wild experience. And I I saw. quickly that people were using this. music in a way that felt um inspiring. for me to stay in the public eye as an. introvert. I had ambiguity about all of. it. And uh I saw that it was supporting. people and uplifting people or reminding. people of who they were or giving them.

permission to feel anything. And I. thought this is a good reason to stay. here and keep going. For me, it was. glimpsing inside. way too much information. I can spend a. few minutes writing a song and then get. back out. So, I'm much better now at 52. at going in pretty consistently, but. songwriting was terrifying in that way. because it would come through and then. >> and then it's out for the entire world. >> Yeah. And then it's not mine anymore. Then it's yours. Then I have nothing to. do with it almost. >> You also just performed that song on.

stage with Olivia Rodrigo. I know. mentoring young artists is something. that you're so passionate about. How did. you two first meet? >> Um I don't even remember. >> I think we met at the Rolling Stone. cover shoot together. Um yeah, I just, you know, there's nothing better than supporting. young people in being who they are and. not having to figure it out in their. 80s. And especially I think like as. women in this industry like you have so.

much that you have learned and continue. to learn. So I think that like anytime. we can pass that down to future. generations it's such a blessing of like. oh my god because I'm sure you like oh I. wish I knew this here you go. >> Yeah. Or I wish I had someone you know I. definitely had the will you be my mommy. for a long time in the mid '90s like. will there be some mentor some group of. women who kind of rush in and scoot me. up? And the answer was a hard no. But. but now it's a hard yes. And I think. consciousness has changed to the point.

where that which was really confusing or. overwhelming or weird or woowoo, which. that word is gone now. I just think now. people are understanding what some of us. were talking about the whole time and it. feels strange. I didn't expect it. Let's. talk about the '9s. What do you miss. most about that decade? >> I miss um sitting around doing nothing. I feel like you were doing a lot. Yes. But also, you know, as an artist and as. an as someone who expresses oneself as a.

career, it's a lot of it, a lot of the. writing is just sitting and letting the. mind wander or listening or you can call. it channeling. We call it whatever the. freak, but it's basically listening, heeding, and answering the call. >> The '9s also, I feel like everyone talks. about fashion. >> Yeah. >> And the trends keep coming back. What is. something that is in your closet that is. from the '9s that you still put on today. or you still look at and you're like, I. still stand by that fashion decision.

>> I have some some LE boots uh and I have. some D really early work. Um I keep a. lot of it in archive. Um, but the one. thing I noticed about the '9s and it. kind of reinvigorating now is that back. in the '9s, we weren't like cute and. wearing cute, ill-fitting clothes to be. cute. It just didn't fit. So, also, if. you're going to chase the 90s, which.

seems to be really cool to do now, you. got to tweeze your eyebrows to tiny if. you mean it. If you don't mean it, right? You really got to lean in. Like. you have to commit to it or it's not. you're not even going to get close to. it. >> Yeah. >> We cannot talk about fashion also. without talking about Sex in the City. You guest starred on Sex in the City and. you kissed the Carrie Bradshaw. >> Yes. >> Were you a fan of the show before you. went on? >> Yes. And I reached out to them and I. said, "Might it be a nice time for.

Carrie to experience a lesbian moment?". And they said, "Why yes, we were. thinking the same thing." Wait, you came. up with the idea? Well, I think we. literally had the same idea at the same. time. That happens. >> That is That makes it even better. >> I Oh, wow. >> It was a win-win. >> Well, and I also feel like at the time. it wasn't very common to see a bisexual. character written into television. >> And so, what did it mean to you to be a. part of a moment like that?

>> It's amazing. Yeah. Anything that opens. up and pulls us out of the locked binary. is a loving act, I think. Do you think. you knew though at the time like how. groundbreaking it would be when people. saw that on TV? >> Was it groundbreaking? >> Kind of. I guess you're like I just went. about with my dad Alex. I just I do. iconic Tuesday. >> I just drop mics and keep walking. >> No, you do. >> I'm just joking. >> No, you do. >> Sometimes. >> Um I feel like when people talk about. you, we're always talking about how. you've broken barriers. And I think a.

great example of that is you created. your own record label at 13 years old. Now, Elanis, I feel like I'm going to. speak for myself and also the collective. when I say I was not doing anything like. that at 13 years old. No, no, no, no, no, no. So, I need to understand like. how did that even come to be at that. young of an age? >> Yeah. I started writing songs at 9:00. and I sent it to a friend of the family.

who's since passed away and he and he. heard it and created a track for it. So. when I went to visit him, uh he he had a. track fully prepared and I said, "Who's. going to sing this? My brothers have. informed me um repeatedly that I can't. sing." And he's like, "Well, they're. lying and getting to brother also to. just humble you constantly. >> Just take you out." Um so I sang it and. then that was that. And then we went to. shop a record deal. And back in those. days, they weren't signing little. children. Now they just go right up the.

vagina into the uterus and get the. signature and come back out and wait, I. guess. Is your child signed to a deal. yet? >> Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. We got an. agency set up. Can you bring yourself? >> So that was not happening then. And so I. basically um. >> started a record company with my friend. Lindsay and we put it out on the record. company at I was 11. >> Yeah. That takes a certain level of. confidence. Like were you always a young. confident child? >> I think my parent there's so many stages. of development. Attachment exploration,

identity, competence. My parents knocked. the confidence one out of the park. Definitely saying you can do anything. you want. >> Oh, that's such a gift. >> That's a big one. I mean that change. that can change your life obviously. because I think a lot of times people. have to struggle with that their entire. life and find a way to find confidence. because their home was the place they. did not feel most confident. >> So to have that within your parents. >> were they at all nervous about you. though getting into this industry?

>> Apparently not. >> And did they have any background in it. themselves? >> No. So, they had no concept of the. industry. >> and they just were like, "Go for it, Atlantis. You're going to crush.". >> It was really that simple, actually. >> Did they have any um idea for you prior. to that of what they hoped you would. become? >> No. I mean, my dad was a grammar guy. My. mom, you know, my parents are. they have that go-getter thing. It's in.

the DNA of the marrow of their bone. When you talk about your experience in. the music industry, you've said you were. put in a lot of maledominated spaces at. a very young age. >> What did that even look like for you. back in the day when it first started? Just a room full of, you know, 12 men in. suits. And I just remember being really. overwhelmed. Like I didn't even know. what the word publishing meant. I didn't. know what these contracts were that were. being put in front of me at 14. I didn't. know. So I would run upstairs to my room.

and cry. I remember I burned my journal. in the fireplace just thinking, you. know, this is the end of a normal life. for me. Um, and then I signed the contracts and that. was it. And I still didn't really know. Rewind for two seconds. Why were you. burning your journal in the fireplace? >> Because I talked about all these people. I had crushes on and I just didn't want. anyone to find that out. >> Meanwhile, it's like full gold in there. Platinum. You're platinum, baby. YOU'RE.

LIKE, "OH, >> WHY DID I BURN IT?". >> NO, literally. >> shouldn't have burned it. >> I actually have legit diary burning. regret. It's a thing. >> And so you just Why? Cuz you were just. like, "I don't want to lean into these. emotions and these feelings.". >> Oh, no, no, no. I want to lean into the. feelings. I just don't want anyone to. know anything. I just got really Heidi. I'm an introvert. So this whole life. that was sort of presented as an option, I just thought, "Wow, how am I going to do this? I'm a poodle.

inside a black stallion. It's like the. black stallion's lovely and awesome, but. the poodle the the nervous system, you. know. So, but also what's so crazy is to. even hear you say that and I'm sitting. here and I'm like, you are. the breakup anthems that you've written, the push and pull dynamics between the. person that you're in love with or that. you hate or you. >> both. Yeah, it's usually both. like to. hear the way that you have been able to.

pen to paper and then release that into. the world and to hear you be like, "Oh, I wanted no one at first to hear any of. this." How did you get through that? >> I know. I'm I'm fine with everyone. hearing everything. I didn't want anyone. to know because there's layers of. vulnerability and and I do receive a lot. of comments around how is it possible to. be that publicly vulnerable and. empowered. And I'm like, first of all, thank you. Uh but you can do both. You. can be empowered and vulnerable. I can. be comfortable sharing that I feel anger.

and shame and guilt and fear and joy, but I might not want you to know the. seven people I'm obsessing over right. now. >> Maybe not. But also, did you did you. ever change like light little details. cuz you're like, I refuse to let him. know this one's about him. >> Oh, yeah. I never tell anybody anything. ever. >> But do you think your some of your exes. knew it was them? >> Well, here's the thing. If you're. calling me up, which some of them did, and saying, "Is that song about me?". We're done. >> Really? Okay.

>> You're like, "Well, does the shoe fit? >> Tell me." Right. >> Does this resonate? >> Right. >> If it does to the point where you're. calling me, aren't we done? >> We're done. >> We're done. This wasn't written for some. overt revenge. I love revenge fantasy. >> Keep it a fantasy. Write about it or. sing about it or something. >> That's the best revenge. >> But real revenge is no. Nobody wins. >> Yeah. Yeah. But real revenge does end up. happening when your name is uh like and. then you put it out and then it's like.

uh everyone is going to listen to this. That's a pretty good form of revenge. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Alex, >> you're like, "Yeah, yeah. Whatever you. say.". >> No, that's totally true. >> You I think it's important also to. emphasize you reference all these men in. these suits and you being like, I didn't. know what getting published meant. like. I just was a talented young woman who. had a very very specific skill obviously. and everyone saw that you had that skill. and so everyone's going to be interested. in monetizing that.

>> but back then I don't think we really. had the language or the understanding to. even call certain things for what it was. like oh that's a double standard or this. is gaslighting or that yeah all these. beautiful new words. >> right that's emotional abuse that's the. patriarchy that's misog sexual abuse. a lot of that. >> No language to explain a lot of times. how specifically I think women were. feeling. Um, in what ways did you feel. yourself up against that push and pull. of like I feel like something's off.

here, but I don't know how like what. this is. >> Um, well, there was a lot of extraction and. exploitation. So already there's a dehumanization. Um, the fame one is a whole other. concept, a conversation. But in those. rooms with the with the soup peeps, um, there was no attunement or empathy, a. lot of personality disorders, a lot of. misogyny, a lot of just hate of the.

feminine, not just women. It's like we. hate women, yes, but we also hate the. feminine. We hate vulnerability, but we. want it. We want tenderness, but we. can't say we want it. There's just so. many indoctrinization. conversation of how we're supposed to. live, what we're supposed to want, how. we're supposed to present. Meanwhile, we're all animals. We're all humans with. a little neoprontal doing our best. And. isn't it so weird when you say that, too? It's like the men who hate that so.

much, but a lot of these men are. recognizing this is what will sell. So, they're not afraid for you to put it in. the song and to have it released. >> Oh, they love it. >> They love it so much. But behind closed. doors there's. >> they still hate. >> They still hate. >> Well, it's also people were very. generous uh by saying, "Oh, you know, you've changed the game." You know, there was a point in time where it was, you know, if we called a radio station. to see if they would play one of my. songs. They would say, "We can't play. it. We're playing Chenade." Or, "We.

can't play it at this radio station. We're already playing Tori.". >> One woman. >> So, that all changed and it was a. beautiful I just felt like I volunteered. to ride the hugest wave. I put my hand. up before the question was even asked. somehow and the wave was happening. without me and I just happened to be on. it and I said, "Yeah, put me at the. front. I'll get my head chopped off.". >> Don't Do you think though, Elena, that. that comes from. just something within you that you were. born with or something that you actually.

were taught? >> Rage. >> Yeah. Best activism is rage fueled. Anger is such a powerful emotion which I. think we all should lean into which I. want to talk to you about because oh. we're going to get there but it's like. to recognize where it's coming from to. have some control over it for yourself. and understanding that's containment. So. that's like you know be reading a room. being discerning is this appropriate. here. >> and getting older it's like oh rage just. transmutes into this be I mean it's.

always beautiful. I think anger is. beautiful. I think rage is trauma. If. we're raging, we're traumatized. If. you're a woman in the world of. patriarchy, how are you not enraged if you're really. looking at it. >> every day? Every day. >> So, that's not going anywhere. >> I'm getting enraged right now. >> I want to throw something, but not at. you. >> Not at you together. Together. >> That's not. >> Oh, literally. Um, you have said that. men often referred to you as mature for. your age and you thought it was to.

justify it in their own bodies like they. needed it to be true. Can we talk about how men do this and. why they do this in your opinion from. what you've experienced? >> Why why they tell a young person that. they're poised and wise beyond their. years to justify their sexual predatory. actions. And it's so transparent. And yet when it happens to a young. woman, when you.

>> It's a freeze response. Yeah. >> We fight, flight, freeze, collapse, or. appease or befriend. All five of them. are great, but freeze is just kind of. the normal one. >> on an animal level. You're being. predatored and you can't do anything. about it. >> And at a young age, we don't have the. wherewithal because we haven't had the. life experience as a young girl to even. understand. So you naturally take that. as a compliment. You're like amazing. So. I can hang in the room with the suits. But it's also on other. >> but it's reductive.

>> Of course. Of course. It fe You don't. know that though in the moment fully. >> Not when you're young and especially if. what's been ascribed to you as your only. as your one gift as Joe and Little Women. would say um is your sexuality and your. come hitherness. So, as a what at what. age? At this point, you know, young. people through puberty, they reach a. certain age and then all of a sudden. there's a different kind of gays. It's. terrifying. It is terrifying. And at. some point, you also wish that there. were adults in those rooms.

>> Yeah. who would recognize the obvious. power imbalance and help the young woman. understand that that is not a compliment. and they're going to do everything to. protect them from that person who is. clearly a predator and yet we continue. to be let down. Well, yeah, we're not. we're in the dome of patriarchy. Nothing's going to be fixed in there. We're just going to run in circles. So, I'm over here. So instead of spending an. inordinate amount of time talking about. how the patriarchy is just not helping.

anybody, just come over here and talk. from here. >> And talking also is such a weapon. because it is a threat to them. And the. more we keep talking about it and. exposing it, >> then their rage comes out and I'm like, "Oh, I'm sorry. Am I making you. uncomfortable? Like you've made us. uncomfortable. >> like the last 10,000 years.". >> 10,000 years. Uh-huh. Um, I also read. your former business manager, as if it. couldn't get worse, stole millions of.

dollars from you. How did you first even realize this was. happening? Something felt weird. A. woman's intuition. >> Uh-huh. Okay. And what did you do when. you had that gut feeling? I just kept. going into um the new business manager's. office over and over and saying, "I need more information because. something's up and I don't know what.". And I kept coming in to the point where, God bless, they they said, "Why are you.

here in this boardroom?" And I said, "I. still don't have the answer yet." And so. my husband was sitting next to me and he. was going through papers and he noticed. some inconsistencies. and he went, "What's up with this?". And then we called everyone into the. room. They looked at it and they said, "We'll get back to you." And then at. first it was like, "Do you spend cash a. lot?" You know, >> on valet. That is. >> that's a that's a unique one. >> It is. And it's also it's it's at face.

value. Yes. It's like the money, but. it's like the entitlement to your. earnings. What was beautiful about it. was that I just stayed the course, one. foot in front of the other, just keep. showing up. And then when I spoke at the. trial or the sentency hearing, the judge. was a woman. And she was like, I just looked right at. her. It was really actually quite. corrective for me. Yeah. But also money,

right? >> Of course. When a bias against wealth, bias against women, bias against women. knowing. Oh, of well, even it's like you. having all the right to be asking those. questions and the amount of times that. you needed to ask. >> asked four more times. >> and you still don't get an answer. >> and it's your money. >> Yeah. >> And somehow and it's like, you know, if. a man walked in there and said, "Show me. my" It'd be like, "Uh uh" and they'd. show it to him. But it's like, and then. the betrayal and the mistrust that comes. from that, you're like, "And you all.

wonder why we're angry.". >> Yes. And that's just the iceberg tip. I. know this. >> Oh, SWEETIE. IT'S JUST. >> I HOLD YOU and your baby. >> Okay, let's start. I wanted to I wanted. to get into this topic because you ought. to know was intentionally the lead. single on your breakthrough album. because you said you wanted to open with. anger. To people who don't understand. what we're even talking about, can you. explain your thought process around that.

decision for that single? Well, the. thing about patriarchy is um there's a. reduction imposed on women. So, for me, I knew that being a complex human being. with 75 multi-dimensional layers might. be a little much for some. I was dumped. many times for my multi-dimensionality. So, the messaging basically was just. reduce yourself and everything's going. to be okay and try to be quiet if you. can. So, um, a hand in my pocket was an. option and ironic was an option as first.

single. And I remember thinking, "No, we. just we just have to just just put you. ought to know out and then we talk cuz I. had too much rajas. I had too much. energy to to not have that be first and. then that I could speak to. effortlessly." Um, >> how did your team feel about that? >> Okay. No, kid. What's up? No. Um, >> you're like, well, >> my team of suits. No. Um, >> yeah, they were they were into it. I.

mean, they definitely when they first. got the record, they said, "This is a. little costic. It's a little intense for. us." And I said, "Well, if you want a a. Dan Steelely record, why don't you sign. a Dan Steelely?" And they were like, "It's Steely Dan, you freaking idiot.". Like, right. Uh, I'm 19. I'm costic. Right. Well, and it's also like you. coming out and having this single that. is, you know, leading with this anger. and this rage, which is so enticing for.

so many women, obviously, because so. many women didn't feel like they could. have that, but also there are songs that. obviously have joy. It's this dichotomy. of a woman that gets everyone in a. frenzy of, oh my god, how can she be. both? And I think it's very unsettling. for a lot of people. You leaning into. the anger at first, did you feel like. there was any initial conversation or. backlash around that? There was terror. and resistance, but that's just normal.

I mean, what new a Tuesday? I just can't. get over though how. and maybe it's also because I'm meeting. you where you're at right now, but I. have a feeling if I met you even back. then, it feels like it was similar. Like. there was no. apprehension from you or nerves around. like, "Oh god, are people going to. crucify me?" Like, "Are people going to. think I'm crazy?" Because that is what. happens with a lot of women. If we come. out as angry, they're like, "Oh, she's. insane.". >> Yeah. The C-word,

>> of course. Uh yeah, but you know, at. that point, projects onto me all you. want. Project that I'm the antichrist. Project that I'm terrifying or comp like. too comp basically too much. Right. My. whole life I've just heard that I'm too. much. And at this point I'm at menopause. time. I'm just like too much. You mean. exactly who I am? Yeah. Do you think. that when you were in your teens and. 20s, did you ever have a moment where.

you were by yourself in your room being. like, "This is a lot to bear the burden. of.". >> Um, every time I put a record out. without fail, I wake up at 4 in the. morning, the the morning of release, and. have a full panic attack. I mean, I'm. always nervous. People are like, "How do. you deal with your nerves?" I'm like, I. don't know. >> No, I get I get that. It's almost like, yes, and yeah, I'm nervous, but but I'm. also here and I had the decision to. either put this thing out and go with my.

gut. And yeah, I can be nervous as hell. and want to vomit and hopefully no one. sees or I could just sees, >> right? Where everyone sees. Perfect. So. beautiful, >> right? Or you can freeze and you cannot. do anything with it and then you're just. left wondering what if. >> Well, then you're in your 50s going I I. want to make up for some lost time and. which is also do it when you can do. >> when you can. >> One question I do have to ask about that. time also aside from the anger is I feel.

like some of the lyrics which I love. were a little. sexually ahead of their time maybe. >> Yes. quote, "And are you thinking of me. when you [ __ ] her?" It's a great. question. >> I mean, it's a legit curiosity. >> It is. Do you remember if there was any. backlash or around that lyrically? >> Um, I believe there was, and I talk. about it in the butterfly with a machete. show, there was a there was a moment.

while writing You ought to know where I. thought, "Oh, I'll just just write it. Don't edit. Don't censor as always." And. then later if I have to take a swear. word out, I'll take it out. And I. remember having said that to Glenn. Ballard and he turned to me and he said, "Why?" And I said, "Well, but I don't want this to turn into the. the lead character of the song, you. know." He said, "But if you felt that. way, yes." And I said, "Yes." And he. goes, "So there it is." And God bless. him for that level of support. Did you. ever feel like you were punished for.

refusing to be more palatable? Yes, I think a lot of people who were. reaching out to me were. trying to figure out what I was doing. and I I couldn't even explain it to. them. Like a lot of people in the. industry and then a lot of people who. wanted to date me, I was very reticent. because why? Like with fame, I love this. part by the way. Someone's sitting. across from you telling you how much. they admire you, how much you've been a.

catalyst in their life, how much you've. validated, empathized, uplifted, all of. those things. Amazing, right? The. greatest. And you're not seen. because it's not about you. So, I've been looking I've really been. deconstructing this whole idea of fame. because fame used to be a means to an. end. Joanie Mitchell or commentary on. the Vietnam War, like it was a means to. an end. Now fame is the end. Now fame is some panacea apparently. No.

>> Yeah. But a lot of people are just like. I want fame for in and of itself. And as. some of us know who've had the privilege. and horror of being inside it, you know, it's a very complicated social. construct. And for me, I thought, oh, there's there could be some attachment. correction here. Eye contact, you know, and the opposite is true. Fame amplifies. any pain. It amplifies any trauma. Amplifies everything. And now you're in. the public eye and now people can't. necessarily even see you as the human. being because you're fill in the blank.

for them. Yeah. That makes me think. about that year you were on the cover of. Rolling Stone and the headline was angry. white female. Do you remember your. reaction when you saw the magazine? >> Was like female? Interesting presumption. Um, no. I I. again same same state of being as the. pick you ought to know as the first. single. Um, great. Whatever you need to.

call me. I know you have to call me one. thing because you can't possibly hold. space for the multitudinousness that is. all humans. Um, so yeah, you want to. pick one? Anger's great. Go. I don't. care. >> And so it didn't get under your skin at. all. >> I loved it because I got to talk about. feelings and anger. It's the best. >> Right. And do you think you're someone. more also at that point that was like. and if they're talking who gives a [ __ ]. >> I wasn't that advanced. >> Okay. >> I also operate from an inside out.

approach and some of that has me a. little blind to the receptivity or lack. of receptivity but I I hear about it. later. How do you think for any woman. listening. because sometimes it is really difficult. when labels are placed on you like we. said the C word and you're crazy and. you're this and you're that and you're. angry. How do you think throughout your. career you've personally learned to. strip those labels of their power and if. anything just make them.

positive for you or use them to your. advantage? >> Well, the ones that hurt I just do inner. work with those. So if someone says I. don't even know at this point I've I've. used a lot of the words in the press. over the years cuz there was a lot of. hate. There were websites constructed to. figure out how to murder me most. elegantly and so. I love how you just dropped these things. casually and you were about to go right. past them like you're like. >> what how the what? Well, there was a lot. of hate and it was very very out there.

and a lot of people a lot of artists. whom I respected and lived for were. disparagingly speaking about me. Later. Chenade apologized which was really. classy. Um but yeah, I mean it was it. was not a girl squad. There were no girl. squads. >> How did you find support during that. time? Like were you close with your. family therapy back then? >> Oh my god. I I have a whole team. I'm a little freaky and a lot of parts. work. So if I read something in the.

press that triggered me and I felt. terrible, obviously that part needs a. little dialogue here because and so it. became shadow work 101 for me. >> Can you give an example of something. back then? I know it probably doesn't. now, but anything. >> I think Courtney Love was calling me. fake, which is so funny. And she also. apologized later and said very kind. things. But um so fake would be one. And. as an example, I would take fake and go, what kind of person is fake? Someone who's maybe lying, lying to. themselves. Do I lie to myself? Yeah, I.

lie to myself. Let's talk to the part. that lies to myself. Okay. What do you. need? What wisdom do you have? What. action can I take on your behalf? Just. and every little part in here that is. trying that maybe acting out or behaving. in a terrible horrifying way like maybe. you want to take me out. They're all. trying to protect. They're all trying to. help. So a lot of the things. when you would get criticism, >> it would hurt, which I think makes a lot. of sense, of course. And the ones that. hurt the most were ones where you were.

like, >> I needed to do some looking at it. >> and fake it. >> And that's how you know because if. someone says, "Oh, Lannis, you're really. if someone says something that's not a. trigger for me, it's water off a duck's. bag." Like, so for me, if something's. not water off a duck's back, let's look. at it. There's also this thing where. it's so fun to be able to look back and. have perspective and everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, you were such a trailblazer. at the time and you did all these. things." But then a lot of the times. when you have those conversations with. those type of people, if you actually.

were in it in their dayto-day and living. it during the time, it was hell for. them. They were getting scrutinized and. hatred. There's websites telling. figuring out how they can murder you and. we miss all of that. But a lot of times. to actually make certain change you have. to go against the grain which you were. doing. >> We're still doing that. >> We are. >> But also to hear that a lot of you the. people around you in the industry were. not receptive towards you. >> Oh yeah. They were upset. I was.

you know it's like people being jealous. of Taylor Swift. Like it's it's just. >> and I think the implication there for me. was that the the presupposition on the. planet was that there's one throne. >> only Alex can sit in the throne. everybody everyone else you fail you. lose you're ugly by what that's. patriarchy. that's scarcity mindset and isn't that. so crazy it's like then they want to put. a stake through you because you're.

sitting at the top it's also like if not. you then there's going to be someone. else and then are we going to take them. down too and we see the cycle repeat. Yes. And it just repeats and repeats. >> of always. Right. >> Of course. Of course. And for me also, I've noticed cuz I've been in the public. eye since I was 14. >> It goes like this. >> You I loved you. I hated you. I loved. you. I hated. And Taylor talks about. that all the time. >> You can never be loved forever. It's. there. >> I mean, you can, but that's in the. underneath underneath. >> True. And if you're going to be loved. forever, you probably have com you have.

a version of lost yourself because to be. loved constantly means that you're. appeasing everyone else and then you're. never actually being. >> Is that even possible? There's no such. thing. You're going to piss people off. cuz you appease. >> Call Her Daddy is brought to you by. SoFi, the everything app for smarter. money. If your money is scattered across. five apps you never open, you're not in. control. Your money should move you. forward. With SoFi, you get. award-winning banking, investing,

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Let's talk about dating. >> Let's talk about dating. My favorite. topic. >> Amazing. I know you referenced you were. sitting across from sometime someone on. a date. You referenced it a little bit. earlier and they're saying all these. amazing things, but you're like, "Oh, you don't even see me.". >> Oh, yeah. >> Jagged Little Pill comes out. 21, your. life changes forever. How did you even. connect with men in a way or women in a. way that you felt seen because of this.

fame and all these issues? >> I didn't. >> How did that impact your songwriting? the loneliness persisted, the abject cellular loneleness. But I. mean, that's what it is. And so for me. also, my survival strategy also, and. I've worked so hard on this, has also. included other orientation, right? Raised in narcissism. My existence meant. beholding other, being supply for. narcissism. I don't even exist. There's.

not even a person here. So yeah, do I. have a big self when people meet me? Maybe. But over the years there was no. felt sense of self because my whole. orientation was focus on other. And so. over the years doing all kinds of. different trauma therapy models and. finally getting to a point where I'm in. this body and that I'm actually here. and the disappearing and the. invisibility. It's a big deal. This. invisibility wound and in patriarchy. How are women not going to feel some.

[ __ ] semblance of invisibility? They. cannot. >> Okay, rewind. Raised in narcissism. >> Explain. >> So, what happens with a young creature. uh at the attachment stage when you're. looking This is when we get, you know, the identity stage, your parents mirror. you. You go, Alex, you're so smart. You're so funny. You know, you're just. mirroring the person. The child goes, "Oh, I exist. I'm here." When that.

doesn't happen, it's this floaty felt. sense of experience. And then my. survival strategy was to take care of. other people. So I'm floating, no felt. embodied, taking care of other. And then the only. touch was through actings out sexually. because everything was mixed together. The only way a woman could be. acknowledged when she's little, like you. said earlier, is oh, sexual energy. I'm.

going to erotically go for you or. predator you or take you or whatever. Right? So the woman goes, the young. woman goes, "Oh, this is my power. Oh, I. noticed that when I'm come hither or. come hither, uh, I get seen. I get. looked at. I get touched. I get Oh, but. it's so sad because it's this one tiny. little route. And a human being, your. sexuality is beautiful. It's huge. And. it is one piece of you." No, it's so. true. And also I was re like I recently.

did this series on attachment styles. which I want to get into with you. because that's what you're basically. talking about. And I think you. describing. >> your childhood, it is such a hard. >> thread for all of us as human beings. when you don't have that. nurturer looking at you, whoever is. your, you know, person that's taking. care of you, giving you a secure. attachment, um giving you validation,

but also proper validation. Um. consistency, right? The fact that you're. saying, you know, from a young age, as a. young girl, then you're like, okay, maybe sexually this is something that. because you're looking for any way to. have people love you. >> Yeah, that's it. And that is so harmful. to ourselves because then you're. >> no self, >> no self. And you're so young. What's. actually going to fulfill you. >> be in charge of your own developmental. >> growings up on your own is very lonely.

And I'm I'm not even just thinking about. me. I'm just thinking about the idea of. it. So attachment, which you just. brought up, and then exploration and the. it's cumulative. So ideally we're. securely attached and then we explore. you know keep looking back at the. caregiver and then we go into identity. the mirroring. That's what I see. I'm. putting it into words. I see you. You. are Spider-Man. Right. And then the last one or the. fourth is confidence. And it keeps. going. But it keeps going. But when you.

cuz I do think it's really relatable for. a lot of women watching. Like do you. have anything you now in having gone. through so much therapy and having such. a secure strong sense of self? Is there. anything you wish you could tell that. younger girl who understandably was. seeking. >> love? >> Love. and and and sexuality brought out. what felt like temporary love, but then. it also the crash is even bigger. Do you. have any advice for women listening who.

maybe are still in that cycle? So, one. interesting inquiry for me was pulling. them teasing them apart and seeing that. am I do I need attachment love right now. or is my eroticism wanting to be. expressed or both? But just getting. clear on that when you look back maybe. in your early 20s, let's say, raised in narcissism, trying to figure. out your sense of self. Did you see any. patterns with partners that you were.

really attracted to? And how did you. break out of those patterns? Uh, I was. attracted to narcissism. Shocker. And as. an empath, you know, we tend to be a. magnet for narcissists. It's not. uncommon. Um, and my uh there's a beautiful book. called Keeping the Love You Find by. Harvel Hendricks. It just basically lays. out where you're going to feel high. chemistry based on your unconscious. unfinished business.

and that the degree of commitment and. intimacy. portends for the degree of healing. available. And yeah, I mean it's a beautiful book. in terms of understanding what seems so. mysterious. It's this unconscious drive. to become whole and to reinvigorate our. aliveness. We all want to feel alive. >> It's so relatable and it's so. complicated cuz it's rooted in. everything we are from the day we are.

born. >> I know. >> And I know you have talked about how you. dealt with codependency and love. addiction. >> What emotional toll though does that. eventually take on you? a complete self. annihilation and obliteration and years. of coming back into who you barely were. before you began. >> I think that's what's so fascinating is. like how imshed you can get in. relationships and how I also think it's. so hard to see when you're in it. >> You can't you can't see it at all. It.

just hurts. >> and it hurts and you and you feel like. but maybe if I try harder. >> Well, that's the appeasement, right? is if I see them a little. >> better or if I hold them or if I. empathize more, if I leave more space, >> but the no self is is the theme. >> And the survival strategy of other. focus, there is no self. Do you have a. moment you remember cuz it's so hard? It's like we can look back and be like, "Oh, that was that." But is there ever a. moment you remember being like, "I have. to leave." Like, is there anything that.

ever happened that you were like, "This. specifically made me walk out the door.". I had a few there's a song I wrote. called that particular time and. basically. I just keep getting into that. appeasement part that just tried to. figure out how to make something. untenable tenable. and it isn't and it won't be and it's. painful and so how do you construct a. self from nothing and guess what the. hack of all time and you said it at the.

beginning of our conversation gathering. gather. period because if we get together and. we're talking and we're processing. >> it moves worlds. >> and a lot of times when you're in those. situations you are so isolated but if. you do open yourself up to a friend or a. family member or something slowly you're. like oh maybe I'm not crazy. >> maybe there are billions of other people. asking this very question at the same. time. >> you and your husband Solai got married.

when you were 35 What about that. relationship felt different to you? >> I had had my the pattern was done. and I just basically went against type. >> which is sometimes really scary. It's. all scary, >> right? >> Everything is scary about dating. It's. terrible. >> cuz you're. >> I don't recommend. >> because you're also so aware when you're. going against your type and you're like.

be open-minded, be open-minded and stay. here, right? Everything in your body is. like go back, go back, go back and. you're like, if we go back one more. time, I'm going to lose it. So, no, we. have to stay the course. >> I can't I mean, how many times do you. repeat the same pattern? And by the way, my answer is 100. Like. >> more than 1007. >> Okay. So you just went against. >> Oh, I had to because I also was ready. for a family and uh his uh so's loyalty. and constancy. There were some qualities where I went.

family now, >> right? I was like, these are the best. This is this is it. And I always wanted. to be a mom. I always wanted to have. kids. So it was a bit of a no-brainer. for me. You have three children and a. conversation that I've been having a lot. on my show recently has been kind of. just surrounding motherhood and. postpartum depression is something that. is such a unfortunately tricky topic to.

talk about because there's so much. judgment from other people and you have. been such an incredible voice when. talking about your experience and being. so open about it which I have so much. respect for um and you even described it. as being covered in tar and underwater. Can you just talk more about your. feelings and what you were going through. back at that time in your life? >> Um I had I call it postpartum activity. cuz it's not just depression and I mean. depression on its own.

and if you've had a history depression. and then from my experience each. postpartum depression gets increasingly. harder. um. just wanted to meet my kids though so. badly so I kept going but um basically I. became another person. and all the hormones are all over the. place and so there's some version of. menopausal flux. combined with depression. invasive thoughts that are so harrowing.

terrible. uh ceaseless. um invasive thoughts anxiety depression. rage off the charts. I felt completely. out of control. And yet I was touring. and leading and being a boss and being. someone taking care of money and. finances and everything. And that part. is the part where when I'm quiet and. alone, I might weep a little bit here.

and there about that. When you first. started to experience symptoms, how did. you even make sense of them? I didn't. And I reached out to so many therapists. and all due respect. One well-meaning therapist said, "Sweetheart, when it gets really bad, just put your hands over your eyes like. this." And I was like, >> you're like, you know, I'm not a. therapist, but I have a feeling I have.

on TV and I know a little bit more than. that. >> You're like, I've got a feeling that's. not the. >> I don't think bullets or anyway. Uh, >> that can't be the answer. >> It isn't. >> Oh my god. >> And I spoke with a lot of really, really. smart, supportive postpartum support. peeps, and it was still really, really, really, really, really, really hard. >> I wrote down um, after your first baby, you kind of talked about how you waited. to get help because your instinct was to. white knuckle your way through it.

>> Welcome to Generation X. >> Yes. Yes. What did you come to learn. about that mindset? >> The the steel. I mean, that's what we. Gen X does it, but also women do it. This invisible low thing. No, no, no. It's not going to be invisible anymore. We're making it visible. I'm going to. tell you the 37 things that we do an. hour. And what we're thinking about when it. looks like we're sitting there waiting. for you to speak to us, what we're. actually thinking about, what we're. actually processing. But let's name it.

Even us calling it invisible load keeps. it invisible. not invisible the load. We. talk about it at the deal just like this. is the load and I used to do these. horrifying things with whiteboards where. I would be like I'm going to write down. everything I'm doing you. Why don't you. do the same? They're like oh god. >> He's like um let's not. >> you know what I'm going to go make you. dinner. >> He's like I am going to go do the dishes. and cook dinner and do the laundry. Bye.

>> Right. And clean the whole house. You're like, and the whiteboard out of. here. >> I have two whiteboards in my bedroom. >> Oh my god. So, you you mentioned that. each postpartum. depression or postpartum activity, it. got. >> increasingly worse, >> increasingly worse each pregnancy for. you. How did you manage. knowing it was coming on maybe the. second and third time? And and how did. that look different the way that you. handled it then versus maybe the first.

time? >> Each time I thought, well, not not this. time cuz I just had to think that. Um, first time I waited a year and two. months, second time I waited eight months, and. third time I think I waited three days. I was just like, "Oh no, I'm not doing. this again." And I did it again. And. then we toured during COVID. I was just. like, "Wow.". >> Oh, Atlantis, you tooured postpartum.

depression. Third one, during co you're. like, "This will solve it." You know. what? This is going to make everything. All I remember is Shirley Manson before. every show, every night, she'd say, "We. going to go on." And I said, "Shirley, tonight we go on. This is all I know.". >> It was one of those. And were you able. to just push through in those moments, but then would it all come crashing down. the minute you would get off stage? >> Uh, back at the hotel. Yeah. But I still. showed up like I was I dipped into.

psychosis. It was a wild ride. >> Um, and then I'd have people in the. business going, "What's going on with. her now? She's extra crazy.". >> I'm just like, "All right, thanks for. that beautiful chestnut word again.". I've heard a lot of moms who also have. experienced postpartum depression talk. about the guilt and the shame of like. >> I'm supposed to be fill in the blank, >> right? Like I'm supposed to be this. supposed to be the best most beautiful. time of my life and I am supposed to be. happy and the happiest. Did you. experience that?

>> Uh no, but I've been playing with. depression my whole life and joy is very. very cool. It's activism for me now. joy, pleasure, connection, human. contact. >> Having. dealt with depression your whole life, how did you. were there was there anything that you. did similar to cope and to handle the. postpartum element of it or were they. just very different experiences? Um.

the the depression piece inside PPD. unfortunately and fortunately I was. familiar with it. It was all the other. stuff. It was the invasive thoughts and. the terror just all I could picture was. death and terrible things. And yeah, I. mean. I feel so happy that I'm back by the. way. And the the bummer for me inside. PPD was that I was losing people's trust.

in my sanity. That's a bummer. When you when I have. spent my whole life attempting to. establish to people I love that I'm safe. and that I'm predictable. and that all of a sudden I wasn't. That was a loss because people looked at. me differently. They looked at me like I. maybe couldn't be trusted or was going. to fly off the hand. And that's not. that's not my thing. >> But also it's and from what I've.

understood because I haven't experienced. it, but like there's also the element of. you're so afraid to say these things out. loud. >> They're terrible. >> because you're like, "Oh, you're going. to think I'm insane.". >> Right. >> But in a sense, from what I understand, it's like we need to say these things. out loud. >> Yes. >> And but then it's being met with such. judgment. So then you just go back into. a corner and we haven't figured out the. solve at all for women. >> gather ring. I mean the solve for women.

is us going back to how we used to live. which is honoring the female endocrine. system as a spiritual freaking practice. And that when a woman is with freaking. child that she is surrounded by 30 women. and they're giving you broth and they're. cleaning your home and they're holding. your baby and they're holding you. And. so of course the women are going to. suffer. >> Yes. >> The freaking lifegivers are going to. suffer. Everyone's okay with this.

>> It is so crazy too when everyone will. treat a pregnant woman with such grace. and love. >> in her second trimester only. >> Uh it's true. >> First trimester. >> Yeah. Like shut up. >> You're bugging me. >> Yeah. You're annoying. >> Yeah. Second try. Third time. Oh, you. have a child. >> No. And that's what's so sad, right? The. minute the mother gives birth, it's like. we. >> gets invisible again. >> We She's invisible and it's all the baby. and it's like wait, this woman just went. through the most transformative in.

moments traumatic experience that a. physiologically a human being could ever. go through and neurologically. >> Oh, >> and we're just like, get up. The baby's. crying. >> And why aren't you why haven't you lost. your 42 lbs yet? >> Yeah. What's going on there? Why don't. you get back to your aesthetic pleasing. for me? >> You look like you're going through it. You better get it together. >> Wow. Do you have a trainer or anybody to. help you with this? >> I just I But how am I supposed to Oh,

you're leaving me alone with that. Okay, perfect. Perfect. So, community is. community. Get community all around and. casserles. >> and casserles. >> Casserole. >> And lots of casserles. off the. casserole. >> You, which I think is so admirable, you. did choose to speak about postpartum. depression publicly while you were still. going through it. >> Yeah. >> Why was it important for you to not wait. until you were on the other side of it. and just say what was going on?

>> It just was what was happening. So, and. it was happening again for the third. time. And I had heard at this point. because I'd been so outspoken about it, people were my phone was blowing up and. someone would say, "Oh my gosh, my. daughter-in-law, she just pulled the car. over and is running down the street. What do I do?" And I'm like, "Why is she. driving? Why is she even out of the house? Why is. she driving? Get her in the passenger. seat." So you so you got a lot of. response from other women once you and. it it was just. >> it was amazing because it was just a yes.

and then by the third time oh yeah let. me let me keep speaking about this. because I started to realize that I was. so not alone. >> Yeah that is the best feeling when. you're like oh I'm losing it. I'm oh you. guys are all going through this too. Oh. wait yes this is normal. Oh, Caller. Daddy is brought to you by Uber. Daddy. gang. We have all been there before. It. is 2:00 a.m. We have been out with the.

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conversation I want to have with you. which we reference a little bit above. was um there's such a fixation on youth. culture. Ironically, every single woman. that I have had sit in that chair has. talked about the beauty and actually the. peace that comes with aging for you. What has been the best part of getting. older? Uh, the words that fly out of my. mouth that I can't believe are flying. out of my mouth. Yes. It's like my.

objective ego watches it fly. Um, I'll be in meetings and someone will. say something and I'll just say that's. patriarchal. and then just keep talking or like. that's really rude or I just it just. flies out and I can't stop. >> And this was not my way. >> It wasn't. I was more just kind of stay. quiet introvert. four with a fivewing and the anagrams. people watching beholding worrying.

processing it later menopause happens. and now I'm just like boom nope rude. patriarchal misogynistic so I can't stop. >> what do people do when you do that. >> I don't care. >> I honestly don't know. >> honestly we'll find out I'll do some. research. >> oh wow I I wrote that You referred to. menopause as a truth serum because it's. given you the freedom to say what you. want, which is exactly what you're. talking about right now. What is.

something that you've maybe just been. recently more honest about that you're. like, "Oh my god, younger me would. never.". >> Well, what I love about menopause is. often people use the metaphor that, you. know, every leaf on the tree gets pulled. or every stone gets turned. You know, I'm like, no, for me, for me it feels like the. tree itself is ripped out of the ground. and the roots are everywhere and like. good luck. And so everything, identity, sexuality, finances, uh, invisible load, no longer being.

invisible, uh, girlfriends deepening. friendships. I think friendships are the. most unsung. see you at the deathbed per perfect. relationships that make for so much. repair and correction and healing. And. we don't talk about it very much. We. talk about dating, which is the. greatest, but but friendships. >> Oh, it's what it keeps you sane and. stable and. >> it's everything. >> It's so true. >> Yeah. >> And like. speaking your mind and the power of. speaking your mind. What is one thing.

also that in life you realize you kind. of can't learn it. It just comes with. age. A. Uh for me, my reactivity has gotten less. and less and less. Like almost there's. just more room for humanity. There's. more room for vulnerability. There's. more room for power. There's more room. for everything. There's more space as I. get older. And.

yeah, I just it's not a roller co I. mean, it's a roller coaster hormonally, but it's not existentially a roller. coaster. That's. >> it's like it's like an observation. I'm. I'm in this observation seat and I'm. charmed. This these new generations. I'm. just like. >> so in love. >> No, it's such a good point. It really. is. It's like you have so much more. perspective and appreciation for. everything you've gone through that. you're like, "That's not that big of a. deal or that is, but like you're going. to get through it." Like you've just.

done so much, right? you have insight. and that allows you to kind of observe. more and not be as like upset about. things or reactionary. I think that's a. great point. >> Yes. And when we're supporting younger. people, our I don't know if it's. certainty, but our solidity is helpful. for them. I feel we need the generations. above us to lean on and mentors and. teachers and uncles and aunts like keep. that going. >> It's such a good point. Support for. Caller Daddy comes from Google Pixel.

Okay. It's the end of a busy week and I. finally made it to the good part. Dinner. with the girls. We are all catching up. Phones are face down and for once I have. absolutely nowhere else I need to be. until my phone starts buzzing. Now, is. this a work emergency or is it something. that I can ignore like someone asking me. to take a 2-minute survey that will. absolutely take 20? Obviously, I have to. check. But the second I pick up my. phone, I'm reading another text and then.

I'm answering something that wasn't so. urgent. And now I have missed the part. where the waiter tells us that every. dish is meant to be shared, including. somehow the soup. And I'm like, no. So, we're so busy making sure we don't miss. anything on our phones, that we're not. fully present for the actual moments. that matter. With Pixel 11's new. highlight, you can keep your phone face. down and a light gently glows when one. of your favorite contacts reaches out. You can assign each person their own. color so you know who it is before you.

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if I'm happy with my internet provider. Um, okay. Maybe I actually should pick. this up. I need to go. Bye. Hi, Matt. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Poly. Market. I feel like this has been the. summer of sports. First, everyone was. obviously freaking out about the. basketball finals and then we obviously. just had the cup and now people are. already starting to talk about tennis. But here's the thing, soccer, I am.

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with a Machete. Y. >> that kind of blends your music with. storytelling and insights from your. life. And I just love the concept. It's. genius and it's so interesting. And it. begins in November. >> Yes. >> What is the meaning behind the name? Like it's such a good name. It's so you. But please explain. >> Yes. Well, there was a moment inside. I don't even know what to call it. Musical piece show. um where I talk. about menopause and I'm such a. symbologist and metaphor lover that it's.

you know the trans the transmutation. alchemically menopause. >> and then this beautiful butterfly will. stab you. So that is. >> you're like that's what I was going with. Alex. That's where Butterfly with the. Machete was born. >> Menopause. But the show itself is, >> you know, in the '9s the the credo was. stay in your lane and especially if. you're a woman, stay in the reductive. one. Whatever one we ascribe to you, stay in that one. So then now 2026.

is all about be everything. It's about. you're multitudinous. You have multiple. intelligences. Let's rock all of them. you know, you you want to do comedy and. music and dance and movement and. aesthetics and lights and, you know, Yes. terrifying because I've been told. to stay in one lane my whole life, but. really, really liberating. Yeah. How has. this show, as you've, you know, put it. together, helped you continue to fight.

the idea that you're too much and too. much is a bad thing? The whole show is. about me grappling with the too muchness. and telling stories that I didn't care. about stories because I didn't care. about myself. Um, and then I worked with. a woman named Anne Randolph who really. supported me in seeing that stories can. matter. And then I thought, okay, I'll try that. on for size. And then after working with. her for a few years, I finally care.

about the stories. >> You're also embracing joy and fun. I. heard that you're coming out with a. holiday album, >> Elanis. >> Yes. >> What inspired this? Cuz I I'm a holiday. girly. >> I'm a holiday girly. >> I love it. >> Then my son Ever was born on Christmas. Day. So I'm an extra holiday girl. >> Oh, okay. >> Christmas morning. >> Okay. So yeah, we need a holiday album. from you. >> just because of that. Just you have you. have street cred just because of that.

And it Yeah. How did you What inspired. this? Yes. So, every Christmas over the. last few years, we've done sort of one. song and then as they were accumulating. and I love them so much. I love singing. these songs. Um, I wrote a couple of new. songs and we just made a record. So, a. song called To Empathic Christmas Time. and a song called Christmas on the Dance. Floor. And this record is just so sweet. It's just been this labor of Christmas. love for me. >> Oh my god, I'm so excited. You don't.

even know. I'm going to be sitting in my. house with my baby. I'm going to press. play. I'm going to be listening to you. and I'm just All the vibes. >> All the vibes. >> Can I bring you broth or some stew? >> Yes. Yes, you can. High protein soup. >> Perfect. It's a date. Um, what is your. favorite song though out of all the. songs that you put together for this. holiday album? I Well, there's a Judy Garland song that Martin.

Martin um Martin Short and I are going. to do. >> Um my favorite to sing is What Child Is. This? and Little Drummer Boy. >> Yeah. Your voice with that one. I'll be. listening to that. I'll be crying. All. the emotions will be flooding. Yeah. I'll be the whole thing. You can just. envision it, can't you? >> Oh my god. Okay, last question. I could. literally talk to you forever, but um. you first gave women the permission to.

be angry. What's next? What do you want. to see women step up and own? For me, it's about. seeing wholeness as a goal versus. wellness. And wholeness isn't always the. prettiest, most linear path. um bringing things online, parts that. we've lost or denied. or cut off, bringing them all slowly online. That's. what I love supporting people, you know,

if you're going from art to S or B to C, wherever the freak we are, that uh that. I'm with you as you go. I mean, that's. it. And I'm doing the same thing. I'm. alongside. I do love that message so much because I. just think there's such an fixation on. Yes, you're right. like wellness and do. this and be this and all of that. And. yes, we can think about like the green. juices and the Pilates and all that, but. it really what we're also talking about. is like trying to be this unattainable.

version of ourselves and and that's not. realistic and it's going to just make. you feel like [ __ ] about yourself. constantly. So to try to find the. wholeness in life, what makes you feel. whole? What makes you feel good? >> Your portals in how do you get served? So for me, it's I don't even do Q&A. anymore. I do Q and Q, >> right? >> It's just inquiry. We're just we're just. looking at it. That's all we're doing. I. have no answer. I don't know. I don't. know you. >> But you have a lot of answers.

>> I mean, I have. >> you have some great answers today. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. I have answers for myself. I don't have answers for others. You are. so. interesting and it was such a pleasure. talking to you. I knew we would have. such a great conversation. >> Excited to speak with you, >> but like the different conversations we. tapped into and I think you're just such. a. >> savant and I love speaking to women that. are like so driven and interested in. what they do and I just love how.

confident you are. Like even the way. that you talked about from your. childhood to the romantic relationships. in your life to also how that impacts, you know, your work and then being a. mother versus having not been a mother. when you were younger. I just all the. complexity of being a human being and. all the different sectors that we have. to tap into and try to fill our own cups. with. You are. >> fascinating and so smart and I can't. thank you enough for opening up to me. and just going there with me today.

Seriously. >> Oh, thanks. I I'm so happy that you have. such spaciousness and capacity. Your. capacity is very high. >> So was yours, girl. Thank you. It was a. pleasure. >> Such a joy. >> Thank you. Thank you.