Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle: Intimacy, Cheating & Starting Over (Full Episode)

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your. founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call. Her Daddy. Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle, welcome. to Call Her Daddy. We're here. We made. it. Wait, I'm like thinking about your. daughter right now and we're like Yeah, they made it. Yeah, they made it. Okay, so she's a fan? She is freaking out. today. This is the best day. She thinks. we're finally cool. She said, "Moms, you. know that that's where cool people go.".

She said, "Just tell them that you'll be. their aunties." That's what she said. I love it. Well, I'm happy you're here. I was going to say like to anyone. watching, we've virtually met because. you guys obviously came on my Paris. Olympics show virtually. So, this is the. first time we're meeting in person and. I'm honored to have you guys here. How. are you doing today? you? I'm great. I'm having a good day. I. didn't have to work other work cuz this. is the work and so that that This is the. best kind of work where you don't have. to sit in a computer and make calls and.

get on meetings. So, I'm so happy to be here. You know, being not just a fan of you, but like. watching you kind of blossom and grow. and you began from the soccer world, it's just I don't know, you're doing. incredible stuff and I just want to. acknowledge that. Unwell, the sponsor of the NWSL, we're. owners of the of the Angel City team. So, just good job. You're doing great. I really appreciate that. I think like. it was almost like a part of my life.

that I never really got to bring forward. when I got into media because it didn't. make sense. Like the Call Her Daddy girl. when I was talking about sex and. relationships, like also played soccer. and was like a competitive athlete. I'm. like, "Those aren't making sense." But I. knew at one point I would be able to. bring that part of my life forward. because the honest truth is I did that. way longer than I did Call Her Daddy. Like since I was so young playing. soccer, you know how it goes. And so. it's a part of your identity that feels. weird. I'm Well, we'll get to, but like. when you retire and when you're away.

from it you're like who am I without. this thing? So it's been incredible to. get back into it and I feel like I. literally called my mom I was like I. feel like a part of me is back. Like I. feel like I'm alive again and it's just. it's amazing. And to be sitting with you. I mean Abby like no, your kids think I'm. cool. Growing up, are you [ __ ]. kidding me? Sorry for my language. I. just wanted to be you and you are so. [ __ ] talented in all of things and so. yes, bow down to you soccer [ __ ] god.

That's sweet. Thank you. Call Her Daddy. is brought to you by White Claw. I don't know who needs to hear this but. you are way too hot to be spending the. summer sitting inside and just scrolling. on your phone, okay? We are getting. those bikinis out of storage and we are. hit getting out of the group chat, too, okay? I want all of us to have fun this. summer and you know what goes perfect. with a seven UV index and yapping with. your girls? A cold can of White Claw,

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with your favorite flavor this summer. Tell them your founding father sent you. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer. with flavors, White Claw seltzer works, Chicago, Illinois. Um, you guys, your book, first of all, congratulations. I know obviously you've. written numerous books, but like we can. do hard things doing it together. Congratulations. What inspired you guys to do this? We. had a doozy of a year. Within the year, Abby lost her brother, Peter.

I was diagnosed with anorexia, which. I've been dealing with eating disorder. since I was 10, so this was just the. latest round. And my sister, who does the podcast with. us, was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I think we just we depend on each. other so much, the three of us. And you. know how when you have a small group, you usually one of you keeps your [ __ ]. together when the other two are losing. it, right? Like you have somebody who. has a clue. But we just all lost it at the same. time. And to survive, we started sending each.

other like little clips of things or. little quotes, um, and then we started. keeping them in files. And they just. became like these really helpful. anchoring places. And we sent it to a. friend. And she wrote back and said, "Can you. make this sort of file for every. category of life for me?" And we were. like, "Huh." Cuz it feels like sometimes. the harder life gets, the more you. forget everything you know. Like it's a. really bad system. Like you should. remember then, but there's a little bit. bit of dissociation that comes with. trauma. And I think that's what we.

figured out. One, I'm so sorry. Two, beautiful, because I feel like the. hardest moments in life is really when. you have to look inward. And like you. said, you lose your way. You're like, "What am I doing?" And what is. happening? But there's a recalibration. that happens because you have to go so. deep inner strength. And then you know who's the closest. person to you. You're like, "Oh wow, I. really know I'm in love or I really know. this person, my sister, my family, whoever it be that's there for you." If. they really stand up, you're like, "That.

is such an incredible support system. that I've built for myself." And some. people then come to realize like, "Well, [ __ ] I don't need this person in my. life. They weren't there for me in a. moment where I really needed them." Um. so much of the wisdom you poured into. this, I think is so applicable to my. audience. So, I kind of want to just. like go through it all. Yes. Let's go back to the beginning though, cuz I want to get to know you guys. better and through that we're going to. obviously get the wisdom. Um Abby, growing up you were the youngest of. seven kids. Can you describe your. personality as a kid when you were. younger? Great question.

So, being the youngest of a big family, for me I had seven. uh six older brothers and sisters who. all were very sports-centric. My two. oldest sisters played all the sports, my. brothers played all the sports. And so, I grew up like watching like. observing them. I was a pretty athletic kid. I was like. jumping off the diving board at like. two, and I scored 27 goals in my first. three soccer games.

And it's because I was competing against. like older people my whole life, you. know? Like I was playing against my. brothers, playing against my my sisters. And they never like just let me win. They were just like always like blocking. the ball for me and like being their. age, not just like. bowing down to the little kid. And I think that part of like what made. me so good. is this this desire, this like.

insatiable desire to win, to prove. myself that I was like one of them. And they with that also came a lot of. probably not healthy behaviors. Um but I do think that there was a part. of me that as a kid I was just like. pretty risk-taking, was fearless. Like I. they would call it Abby alert. I would. just like run away. I would like hide. I didn't like have a ton of fear that. that troubled me. So and then I had.

athleticism. My brothers and sisters even now tell me. like you were ripped. Like you had. triceps and quads and stuff at two. And. I'm like, is that possible? And they're. like, yes. So I guess I was just like this. rambunctious this rambunctious kid who. and now after much therapy and looking. back was just really vying for the. attention of my mom. Really like seven people were vying for. that attention.

Not possible. I mean, I'm glad they had. seven kids cuz I wouldn't be here. otherwise, but it was hard. It was hard. emotionally for I think a more sensitive. kid than I think I was allowed to be. Um. Would you say that that I I know you. don't you didn't know me then, but you. know enough. I dissociated after you said I did not. have a lot of fear that troubled me. I cannot understand that sentence. Gwennan's like, honey, What the hell. what that must be like.

I only have fear that troubles me. Gwennan, we're getting to you. Hold on. Go back. Go back. I'm sorry. Carry on. I. think that's beautiful. You're like, oh my god, that's so. beautiful. I hate you. What? Give me. some of that. Um no, that's so cuz like I was thinking. even when you're saying that two things. One, I think whenever we just have these. like I have these memories of you on the. field and these like just iconic.

historic moments of you pushing through. where so many people must just have been. like, how the [ __ ] is she still. standing and alive on this field and. still going and still bringing it and. then getting that backstory of you being. like, oh, I've literally been doing this. since I opened my eyes and could walk. and breathe and I'm the youngest and I. think about I only have two above me. I'm like thinking about you being the. youngest. That's what I was going to ask. you is like how much of what you were. doing was you just trying to get. attention from your parents because a.

huge family and being the youngest, you're kind of just like getting tagged. along a lot of the times and you're. never getting the first backpack. You're. getting the hand-me-downs and you're not. you know what I mean? So there's a lot. of you're just kind of having to go with. the flow. Do you think that that has. impacted your personality as an adult? Yes, and um. it's it's actually I I've called myself. a recovering professional athlete for. the last 10 years. Granted, I'm also. sober. So as a I'm a recovering. alcoholic as well. But.

having the experience that I had in my. childhood, it gave me, I think, an edge in a way. being a professional athlete, but I. think it was it was like a maladaptive. way of living as a normal person. And. the way that I I've been thinking about. it recently. is. I thought being extraordinary was the. way was the path to getting the quote. unquote mother's love and attention that. I think I was seeking.

And with that approach, I was able to. win gold medals and I was able to win. world world championships for our. country. But I got to the top of that mountain. and there was no there there. There was no more like I could get no. more attention for what I was doing, literal. And maybe you have experience with this. that oh, I I was seeking this. extraordinary life, this extraordinary. effort, gold, Olympics.

And honestly, like I gave myself the. anthem. to. value it. The however long it takes for the. national anthem to play, and the gold. medal was just put around my neck, and I. would step off the podium. And my first thought was like, I want to. do that again. Like. there's a the repetitive. nature of professional sport and the new. season and the next thing that wasn't. conducive to true peace.

Um and I think that when I met Glennon. and I got three kids, the the drive towards the ordinary. has allowed me to actually experience. extraordinary coming into my life. Be-. because it's being the extraordinary's. coming in in a foundation that's built. on true ordinary. That's incredible. Yeah, and I think and and I and I I. assume that you probably have a lot of.

of. relatability to this given where you're. at in your life and in your career. It's. just something to explore. Like, what am. I actually driving toward? And and when I get there, assuming you've gotten there, Alex, Yeah. will I like. am I asking myself the right questions. to live a life that I really want? Like, what's the end end game here? And that's something that Glennon was.

really good at. helping me craft. Like, what is enough? What are we doing here? And in it in in and of itself, like this. book that we've made asks ourselves. It's it's it's written in 20 different. questions and 20 different chapters. So. that you can start asking yourselves. these questions. Like, what am I doing? Like, what is the whole point? Why are. we here? All of it. Everything you just said I. relate to. Yes, you're right. You're. like seeing right through me. I'm like, I we just met, but I can I feel it out.

I I so relate to so many things you're. saying and I agree with the athlete. thing of like there's an identity. crisis, but it you're also made to feel. as though if you are going for something. so big and so valued and so many people. are going to look at you in this high. regard and you just keep doing it and. you just keep winning and it's so. addictive. Like it is it's an addictive. thing. Yes. That then when you are sitting at home. and really what you learn is it's. actually kind of be more beautiful when.

you have just people around you and it's. longevity and love and care and kindness. and all that in the house. But it you're. like, why is it quiet? Why is this. boring? What's wrong? Like I'm I'm a. loser now. I'm just sitting here and all. my athletic ability and what? And then. it's like, no, no, no, no. This is. actually peace and this is beautiful and. it's not normal to every waking day be. like, I have to one-up with myself. I. have to one-up myself. I have to keep. doing it. That can drive you insane and. can also drive you to be depressed. because then you're like, where I need. that high? Like where is it? Where is. it? And then you start to look for it.

elsewhere. Pausing on us, Glennon, then I'm. thinking about you. Like how was your. family dynamic growing up different than. what Abby is describing hers was? Ooh, I. mean, we were small family. It was just. my sister and I and my parents. How was. it different? There was a lot less going. on. We were like kind of a little. island. I was raised by a football coach. though. So I do know more about sports. than I let on. Yeah. Yeah, but my sister and I were. just I mean, sometimes when I go to.

Abby's house, it's actually quite hard. for me because I don't it's it's. I'll I'll say to Abby, I talked to. everyone, but I didn't get to know. anyone better at all and I don't. understand. We're just like saying. things to each other, but we're not like. learning about each other. It's so chaos. So I just feel like I go in and then. it's a swirling and then I leave. Yeah, welcome to a big family. You're like. what am I doing? Your head is spinning. and you're like, this is normal. Abby's.

like, what are you talking about? We got. so deep. We got to know that this one's. dating this one. Like, what? Like, you. know, you're like, but we didn't get. into like the mental like emotional. We. didn't sit on the couch and talk for an. hour and get deep. Like, I get it. I get. it. What insecurities, I know you kind. of mentioned obviously this past year. that you recognized that you were. diagnosed with anorexia. But back when. you were in high school, can you talk to. me about the insecurities that you. struggled with? I don't know. I just. remember feeling.

completely um exposed and confused in. high school. Like, I didn't know who to. sit with or how to be. And I actually. ended up I I became bulimic when I was. 10. By the time I was a senior in high. school, I ended up leaving school to. actually go spend time in a residential. treatment center. Now they have. excellent eating disorder clinics, but. back then it was like you just are in. sort of a mental hospital. Um and I really felt like the mental.

hospital was much saner than high. school. I did. I felt like fair. Fair. You know, I felt like, oh, this is. where we're able allowed to tell the. truth and we do art and we talk about. feelings and we're all there's rules. about how to be kind to each other. Actually very much like 12-step meetings. now. I love a 12-step meeting. I need a. 12-step meeting. I need like a moment of truth where. everyone's telling the truth about how. hard and messy life is before I go out.

into the world and like adult and act. like everything's fine. I know you were so young, but do you. remember the first time you remember. feeling like uncomfortable with your. body? Yes. I all I've my whole life I've. spent uncomfortable in body. I I when Abby and I first got married, I. would get dressed to go out and I would. say, "Do I look comfortable?". And she would say, "I think that's something people have to. answer for themselves.". Mhm. But really, I think I have spent a.

lot of time dissociated, like not in my. own body. I live in my mind a lot, and. this last eating disorder recovery has. been a lot about living in my body, which sounds so weird, but has been an. interesting process for me. I know. Sometimes I I'll walk into the bedroom. and she'll be like in bed, and she'll be. in like the most uncomfortable position. that a body can be in, and I'm like, "Are you comfortable?" She's like, "I don't know." So she walks over and.

like arranges all the pillows in a. different way. "Oh, yeah, that feels much better.". Yeah. And you're changing your clothes. like 15 times just to feel more I do. that. I do that like 10 times a day. It's very interesting. I don't know. When you're able to look back at like. dissociating and obviously the bulimia. and everything, like do you Have you. recognized the through line of what was. going on in your life at that young age? Yeah. So I think the difference between.

this round of eating disorder. recovery and all the low so many other. ones I've been part of is that I think I. kept my recovery in my head, which means. that I. said, "Obviously, it's culture. It's. It's misogyny. It's this world we live. in." And I kept it very intellectual, and I think for the first time I'm. actually doing like family of origin. work this time. And I think that. there was just a lot of anxiety and.

anger in my home. that manifested in very controlling. angry. energy that for a sensitive kid like me, I think my body and my environment. wasn't a safe place to be. And so, I just decided that my mind was. a safer place to live. Wow, this is what. happened. If you can send me this recording, I'm. going to get it right to my therapist. cuz I feel like we're nailing it, Alex. We are. We're nailing We're nailing it.

Um yeah, I think that's what happened. And so, my mind not here is my safe place. That's why I can't tell when I'm not. comfortable or I, you know, so. reminding myself that I am safe now, like I think half of being a grown-up is. just reminding your nervous system that. you're in a different environment now. and you are safe and you've created a. life for yourself where there's safe. people around you and you can just relax. and that's what.

I mean, honestly, that's what my. marriage to Abby has been. It's been the opposite of everything. that I learned when I was little. It's. just like absolute. peace and safety. That's so beautiful. though because so many people are not. even fortunate to say that, to be like a. lot of times we repeat patterns. And. there's so many people like, "Oh my god, I did marry my dad. [ __ ] like got to. redo this one now." Like that's This is. not working and you being able to. recognize like there was this feeling in.

your home that was unsafe and made you. not want to be in your body. And I think. a lot of people, like obviously with. eating disorders, I have a lot of people. in my life, like a lot of it stems from. control and that was the one thing you. could control. And so, now that you're. able to explore this, I think it's. beautiful and having a partner that's. sitting next to you that's like, "I'm. going to be there every step of the way. for you so you feel safe." Because going. through therapy and uncovering things. from childhood is I don't even have a.

word for it. It's like you're. re-watching. for some people like a nightmare that. you don't want to open up. And for you. to have someone that's just like there. to guide you and even as cute as he is, you walk in being like, are you. comfortable? Can I adjust the pillows? It's No, it's It's you need someone like. that. You can't No one can go through. this [ __ ] alone, and that's what's so. beautiful about this. Did you though, Abby, when you know, I'm talking about. it with you, Glennon, like I'm thinking. about being an athlete, and there's such. a fixation on our bodies as athletes and.

at every different stage, whether it's. the early days to then, obviously, in. when you get like later on, did you. struggle when you were younger at all. with your body? Um I never had like. I ate too much. That was my problem. Um. which I know is an a form of an eating. disorder. Um. I have a healthy case of body dysmorphia. though, in that. I'm sad that my body doesn't look like.

it used to. all the time. So, I do, you know, I have to I have to very be very careful. on what I eat and work out and walk cuz. I can no longer run cuz my ankles are. all messed up. Um so, I've never really I haven't. experienced what Glennon experiences on. a daily basis, and I think it's. important that. like what you said around her having. an environment where she feels safe to. explore this stuff, and I think one of.

the things that a lot of us really run. into almost all the time when we think. about going back to our childhood is. that now if we go back to our childhood, this now I'm deeming my parents awful. people, people that are unlovable, and. it's just not true. Like you can love. your parents and appreciate for them. trying their best cuz I do believe that. there's a lot of of our parents out. there, mine included, that they did. their best, and it was just maybe not.

enough. And. they are people, too. And they they had parents that might not. have had the education or understanding. that we have now. And so, don't let that. fear of. blaming or pointing towards a childhood. um prevent you. from exploring that part of yourself. It's so real cuz I'm like, oh, I don't. have kids yet, but I can imagine you.

guys feel this way. You're like, oh, I. can't wait to find out how we [ __ ]. them up. Like, they're going to come No. one's life is perfect. Everyone feels. and again, it's. I love that you're saying that cuz there. are some parents where it's like, woah, this is like objectively you [ __ ]. these people. But then there's also. parents where it's like, yeah, you did. your best. And I still have things from. my childhood that really affected me as. a human being that I can say that out. loud and it doesn't mean that you are. this horrible human being. I think yeah, both things can be true.

Did you though, Abby, like in your high. school days, like did you have any. insecurities that you were dealing with. that you felt like you weren't able to. be open about with people? Yeah, I mean, I was a queer kid. Um. I wore backward backwards hats, flannels. I went to an all-girls. Catholic high school. and played sports. So, but I was straight. I had a. boyfriend in high school. Um.

really, really scared. I grew up in like. a smaller town in Rochester, New York. And. you know, yeah, it was I was really struggling. because I had sat so many days of my. life. in the church pews. And my mom is she's a very big church. person. I was born and raised Catholic. And I I just like soaking up all of this. energy towards what I knew that I.

couldn't say out loud. And I spent a lot of my time in the. closet, not only for my family, but for. myself. Um and I think it's it's. almost laughable now because when I look. back at my teenage high school self, I. was like the most butch lesbian you've. ever known. Okay. I mean, if I could have. could tell you have no gay dar. Yeah, if I could have had this haircut. then I would have. But no, I had like the long ponytail and.

you know, only wore it in a ponytail, slicked back ponytail all the time. Um. and then another thing ended up. happening where we have um we have queer. kids and one of them came out to us. And it was like the most special thing. that ever happened to me in my whole. life because instantly what happened is. I got scared. And I had this panic, this fear inside. of me. And it made we talked ad nauseam about. this, Glennon and I, like, oh, it made.

me understand that my mom wasn't afraid. of me. She was afraid for me because the world, especially in like the late '90s, was. not what it is today. Queerness was not. cool, especially being a queer lesbian. was not cool. It was like this. underground mysterious place that you. had to like go find. And. and now I understand like, oh, as a. parent, we want our kids to have a good. life and not not feel afraid of things. And and I think that.

and now I've gotten over that fear. because like our kids are just happy and. they they are proving that acceptance is. truth and acceptance is the way forward. I the Catholic Church, I agreed there's. like. it there is growing up when you're so. young and you're watching something and. you're hearing something. Like I. remember like hearing about sex as I'm. sitting in those pews being like, "Okay, so I'll basically die if I do this. before marriage. Got it." Like, "Whoa.". And then like after I did it, I was.

like, "Am I going to die? I'm alive. Whoa.". "God, this is crazy." Yeah, God. Um can. we talk about you guys both kind of. talked about it earlier, but you both. talked about like using alcohol to cope. in ways. When did you realize "Oh, I. think I have a different relationship to. alcohol than my peers and my friends. around me." Call Her Daddy is brought to. you by T-Mobile. When it's time for a big juicy gossip. session with one of my friends, I need a.

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the VIP treatment at. t-mobile.com/benefits. You both talked about like using alcohol. to cope in ways. When did you realize. "Oh, I think I have a different. relationship to alcohol than my peers. and my friends around me. I I always had that thing in me that. there it was never enough. Never and I I. remember seeing people leave a beer, a. half beer, or a half glass of wine and. be like, "What is wrong with that?". Like, how is that How is that humanly.

possible? And then I just, you know, they say. about It's not how much you drink, it's. like how you drink. Like, I just had a. situation where. every time I drank, which was all every. night, my whole life fell apart. Like, I. would I remember just sitting in my dorm. room just waiting for someone to call to. return my keys, my wallet, my Just every. day it was like it was how I drank. Like, I noticed that my friends didn't. their lives didn't fall apart, they.

didn't do crazy things, they didn't lose. everything. It was a way of being around. alcohol that I knew in the back of my. mind this isn't right. Abby, what was. the moment for you that you knew you. needed to get sober? Well, I had many. Um. being a professional athlete, I had a. I had like a kind of a secret personal. life that not many people knew about and. this was totally a part of it. Um and I. think being an athlete, too, I just took. on that persona that I just I I went.

hard all the time in every aspect of my. life except school. Um I was the athlete, I went to parties. That's what I did, went to college, and. then I became. a soccer player and started playing on. the national team and so then I started. to like. create these time periods where I could. do it, like my times off. So, I would. never really drink in in in camp. But when I'd have the weekend off or a.

week off, I would I would rage for five. five of those seven days. And throughout a whole career of doing. this, 15, 20 years, it starts to take its toll, uh and then. I start getting more injured, getting. older, starting to use prescription. meds. Those get kind of out of control. Um I'm leading towards my retirement. from sport, and then I get the a DUI. And that was the.

most important thing that ever happened. to me. I get a DUI. My mugshot is on the ESPN ticker for. like seven straight days. And it was like the thing that like woke. me up. And I was like, "Whoa, my life is. way worse because of alcohol." And for a. lot of my life, it was what I I was. telling myself it was way better. I'm. having all this fun and doing all these. fun things and hanging out with all. these amazing people. And.

I have not had a drink since that night. I got arrested. And it's one of the things I've been. sober for almost not for 9 years now. I. just hit 9 years. And Conversations. Everything really powerfully good in my. life has happened in my sobriety. And I. won gold medals as a high-functioning. alcoholic. And a lot of professional. athletes struggle with this stuff, and. they don't do it publicly, and I get. that. And there's more support for and mental. health support for for pro athletes now. than there was when I was going through.

But I was just, you know, I was just. really kind of suffering. not knowing if I was doing life right. Like there were that like I didn't know. I thought that that was like that was. the the only way. And and I didn't. literally know a single sober person. until I met Glennon. Like I didn't know a single person that. was sober in my life until I met her. And now I think. wow, I'm so proud that our kids will.

never ever see me intoxicated. I'm so proud that I have built a life. that feels not boring. My biggest. concern was like it's going to be so. boring. What the [ __ ] am I going to do? And the truth is, when you have three. children, there is a lot to do all the. time every day. I figured. And so, and then we're both full-time. working people, and so there's a lot. that. I wouldn't be able to have the life that. I have now had it not been for me.

getting sober. I wouldn't I would have. probably missed Glennon. This whole thing would never, you know? So, it's like when I look back, it's. like my life just got exponentially. better. Um. being sober. I think that's also really. helpful to hear when you say like you. didn't know anyone that was sober. I. think there's a lot of people that. probably are having the same exact. experience as you in terms of struggling. with alcohol, but like that fun factor, they genuinely believe life won't be.

fun. And am I going to be like the odd. man out where people are going to look. at me, and I'm the only one that doesn't. drink? And I feel like yes, that is fair. to think, but once you start living it, like your testimony be like, wait you. guys, it's literally great. Like I'm. totally And of course, it's hard. It. doesn't mean it's not hard when you're. going through this, but the social. element I also think people are way more. loving and and giving in moments where.

we think we're going to get judged. Also, depending on who you're hanging. out with, there can be [ __ ] that are. pressuring you, but for the most part, if you're around people that are good. people, people just want the best for. you. People are going to meet you where. you're at if you're around the right. people. And I'll just say this, like. first of all, you spend so much less money. I couldn't believe how much a dinner was. without alcohol. It was insane. I was. like. this is great. Big bonus.

And then. I think too like just go home a little. bit earlier. Like once your friends. start to get louder and and they repeat. their first story. that's your Irish goodbye moment. Like. bye-bye. Get out of there. They'll never. remember and they'll be like, "Where's. so-and-so?" Oh, whatever. I'm and then. repeat that story that they had just. repeated to you that made you want to. walk out. So real. They won't care. They won't care. Um do. you feel like your any of your teammates.

were kind of. catching on? Cuz I know that there's a. big secrecy element, but it only can. last for so long. Like how do you think. it impacted your relationships? Yeah, I definitely know that my. teammates were worried about me. Um one of them got the phone call that I. got arrested from a friend and or a. text, "Did you hear about Abby?" And. they thought that I died. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and they. that was their first thought that Abby. got in an accident or something. happened. She's dead.

Um and I wasn't far off. Like I wasn't. far off from that happening. It's. actually super I'm very I feel very. lucky that I'm still here. Um. I think that they all and this is the. problem of being a veteran and being the. person that I was is I was kind of a. senior captain. I think that there was this element of. Abby's going to be fine. She'll take. care of it. Um. and yeah, like it has it it definitely.

has changed a lot of my relationships. and friendships from that time. Um I had to create a whole different. life for myself. I had to I had to to. save my life. I had to leave a lot of. that behind. Um but it's really awesome. that when I get to reconnect with some. of my teammates who I'll be friends with. for life. they get to see this different more. grounded present not always thinking. about what are we going to like how are. we going to what are we going to do? Like let's go. Let's party. Like I was.

like that person that they kind of knew. and they have to kind of get more. acquainted with the new me. Which is a little bit more quiet, a. little bit more subdued. I still like to. tell a good story. Um in fact, one of my. former teammates, we got together. It. was one of our 40th, one of our former. teammates 40th birthday. And we were at. dinner and she just looked at me and she. was like, I like this version of you. And it meant so much to me. Like I kind. of got emotional at the table because.

like that's a fear. Like when you change. your life so dramatically, you you change your relationships. because of it. If you change yourself so. dramatically, your relationships shift. Of course they do and you wonder like. will they like me as this person? And so. it was nice to get that affirmation from. her and at the end of the day like. we've built a life as a family together. that. you know, if you are were to have.

children one day like your family and. your kids become your your source of. everything. And so yes, your friends and. their opinions of you like it matters on. some level but like also. like the things that matter the most is. like what am I what is my wife think? Like am I doing am I doing okay? Think. I'm am I doing okay? She's doing okay. I think I'm doing. okay. You're crushing it. You know, in. speaking about your wife, can we talk. about how the two of you met? Because. when I was doing my research, I was.

like, wait, this is like a [ __ ] epic. story you guys. No, this is like. it's hot and cute and I am obsessed. Okay, so. you release a book. Mhm. Miss Glennon, you release a book and this book is. about your husband at the time. He had. cheated and you write about finding out. he cheated and you're you're going to. stay. Yes. And you go to a book event. Tell me the story. What happens? So,

yeah, so I am. I have I have just gotten sober. I'm. also releasing my my first book my my. memoir. And this is a a librarian's convention. event. And essentially what happens, and. people might not know this, I did not. know this, librarians come together in a convention. every year, and then then authors come. up and kind of pitch their books and to. sell their books to all the libraries of. the United States. And so that's what. this event was. So, I walk in, and I'm a.

little bit late, which never happens, and so I'm like a little bit flustered. And I walk into the back room of this. convention where the rest of the the. librarians or the authors were were. eating dinner. And I walk into this. room, and on the way to the event, I. should say, I checked out who the other. offer authors were going to be so I. could like know their names and, you. know, and I saw Glennon, and I knew. nothing about Glennon, and I just read. her like little blurb, and it was like. sober,

you know, mother of three. The book was. about the the redemption of her marriage. through infidelity, etc. And I was like, "Oh, perfect. Like she's sober. Maybe. she'll know how how to do sobriety.". No pressure. I've never met a sober. person, literally. And so I walk in this room, and all of a sudden, I look up, and. Glennon is standing. Everybody else is. sitting. She has stand got to her feet. and stretched her arms like this. And she's all the way across the room,

and I'm like, "Okay, well, that's that's Glennon, the. one I want to meet. This is great. Like. she knows me. She thinks I'm cool. So, we'll get to have a conversation.". But I like. she's around the table. It I. And it weird. It was weird. Everyone. like, "Why is she standing up?" Like it. was really weird. Yeah, it was a bizarre. uh. Well, then I. And then yeah, and and. know what to do cuz now I'm stuck up. here and I. So, let me let me demonstrate. here to hug her?

a long table full of authors and I stood. up like this. Like like And then she's all awkward and. she goes, I thought maybe if I bow, people will think I just bow when people. walk in rooms. I lost control of my. body. Glennon, Glennon, wait. Abby, she's. basically standing up like like the. [ __ ] Lion King and then she's bowing. What are you thinking and what are you. thinking in this moment and what are you. doing? Yeah, it was What? It was something. I think it was one of the weirdest. moments of my life, but I think it was a.

moment where I was in my body. Like I really do I thought of this a. million different ways because it's so. weird and there was a lot of writers at. the table who still talk about it and. try to get me to explain what happened. I didn't know. Abby, of course I did not. follow the soccer. I did not. but she walked in the room and I was. like, "Holy shit." Like something just. took over my body. and um I called it at the moment love at.

first sight, but I don't think that's. what it was. I think it was desire. And I think for somebody who lives in. their head, I had never I just had. relationships with people who I thought. made sense to have relationships with. Like that seems like a good like I just. never felt it in my body. And so it was the the best way I can. explain it it was it was just a moment. where my body was like, "There she is. You better get your ass up. This is an. important moment.". In your body, was it at all romantic.

way? Like I just never was like a very sexual. being because I just felt like I used to. think of sex as something you do like. like you how you have to to the oil. changed. Like you just you just do it so. the car doesn't break down and people. don't start to say why aren't you having. sex with me and like you just have to do. it to like keep things running smoothly. I know. So, I didn't before that moment. even know what it felt like to be like. sexually. alive. So, I think it was a moment my first.

moment of sexual aliveness. Although, I. would not have at a librarian. suggestion. I know I'm like Glennon, you're like I'm. getting turned on. It was mentioned all these librarians. like the [ __ ] is she doing? I never. kissed a girl. I'd never had a. relationship with a woman or kissed a. I'd never You didn't know any sober. people. I didn't know any gay people. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah, basically. I was a Christian. I. was a Sunday school teacher. And it was so interesting because this. moment happens.

and I have to go over to hug her cuz. she's standing makes it so awkward. I'm. like okay. So, we I hug and then I have to go sit. in my seat which is like around the. table not next to her. And I'm just like there's something. happening. that I can't fully explain because I'm I. keep looking at her and I'm like huh. Like that's. something is happening here and then we. get seated next to each other on the. dais on the on the platform. What is it. called? Yeah. The dais, yeah.

And. the woman who was working for me at the. time. I I have to sign some autographs after. the event. She unbeknownst to me. because the whole time when Glennon got. up to speak, I was like I can speak in. front of a crowd of people no problem. and I was like fumbling my words. I was. like nervous. I was like oh my gosh, get. me out of here. And Glennon gets up and she speaks and. she's like so eloquent and perfect and. uh. and I was just like looking at her like.

the whole time and and so after the. event I'm like meeting with with some. booksellers and. my my assistant at the time went up to. Glennon. and said, "I don't know why I'm saying. this. and I don't know what is going on, but. Abby needs you in her life." I was like, "Got it. I'm in. I am not hard to get.". I was like, "I have been sexually. awoken. Put me in.". First of all, did you feel at all like.

at this point she's married to a man? Are you like. wondering at all? Like it could this. even be? Like would she even be. interested or are you not even thinking. romantic yet? I am curious. Okay. Okay. And as a. uh. a lesbian woman who grew up in the '90s. '80s and '90s where. a lot of the people that I have been. with in my life were previously straight. and then went back to being straight.

It's just the way it goes for some of. us. I was I was side-eyeing her around like, "What's going on here?" Something was. happening. I felt it. And so then I went back into my hotel. room that night and I read her book. And I got to the end of that [ __ ]. book and I was like, "You [ __ ] stay together? That can't be." I was like. heartbroken. I was like, "Oh and I by the way, I'm. the slowest reader in the whole world. I.

read from like 10:00 p.m. till 3:00 a.m. to try to figure out what was going to. happen with this.". And I was like devastated. I was like, "Oh my gosh.". And then a few days later she emails me. What does this email say? Give me the. gist. Okay. So. I think so on on the day as Abby had. told me. that her her people wanted her to write. her memoir as like a Captain America.

story. Like shiny, no problems. Here I'm. Abby Wambach. I hadn't finished it yet. No, it was yeah. And then she said, I but I feel like. maybe. I want to tell the real truth. About the. DUI and the drinking and the. prescription drugs, yeah. And she was so upset like she she felt. like her drinking was like this big dark. secret that no one could know. But she's from like shiny sports world. and I'm a writer and an artist. I'm like. I. So what? Everyone is an alcoholic.

You know, like that's not and I remember. I said, you're you're leaving that world. and you're entering the real world and. in the real world we like real people. So of course you. you show people who you are. And Great advice by the way. So the. email that I sent, I think I was like. pretending that I just would be your. like. spiritual guide. I was just like, you. need some help? Like, hey, I'm the one.

you met from the library. Although I do. remember that when we reread the first. sentence of the email, it said, I don't. know much about you. I do know a little. bit about. men's soccer because my husband is a. fan, but I do feel like I'm over men in. general. So that was not hiding that was. not subtle. God. Right? Remember how much I I just like scoured. all of those emails. for clues for clues. trying to say here? Yeah. Wait, you're saying you're over.

men as you're like married to this man? Abby's like, huh. I know. Interesting. So when throughout this. email process do you think each of you. recognize this is turning romantic? Good. question. Well, it's weird because at. the time she was going on her book she. was about to go on like this the whole. giant book tour. Oprah just picked it. for a book club pick as like the. marriage redemption story. That's how it. was being sold all over the place. And. I guess we we went from email to like. started texting. And.

honestly, like. instantly when we started texting, then. we had like a phone call. And I think. this like honestly, and this is the. God's honest truth, the second we felt. like. that we had communicated that there were. real feelings happening, she said, "I. got to talk to Craig. We this I can't do this.". Well, first I went to a therapist. My. therapist, I sat down with my therapist. and told her the whole thing. I said, "I. I think I'm in love with this woman. I.

I She had been with me through the. marriage. I said, "I cannot. I cannot have sex with. my husband again. Like I Something about. my body let like We hadn't even been in. the same room together besides that. But I just couldn't do it." And she. said, "I understand what you're saying about. not being able to have sex with him. anymore. Have you considered just do it giving. [ __ ] Because many women find that. to be less intimate." My therapist said.

that to me. And Alex, that was the moment I was like, "As God. is my witness, I will never give a. [ __ ] again.". I don't know much, but I freaking know. that much. And so, it was something about that. woman looking at me and saying, "Squash. this. It's not real. Just give [ __ ]. the rest of your life." Where I was. like, "Oh, no, thank you. No, no, no." But then right after that,

you were like, "I have to talk to. Craig." Yes. Okay, yes. What did you. say? I just said, I mean, we had been. through so much, and this man is an. amazing father, and we married each. other because it was the right thing to. do, not because we were right for each. other, and we both knew that. And in. retrospect, when I think about. how we got married, I really railroaded. it. Like I was scared, I was freshly. sober, I was pregnant, and I thought we. got to do this. Like we need to become a. family, and I ignored every.

terrified look in his eyes. Like I can. We weren't ready. But he did the best he could, and I and. there was infidelity, and it was messy. But I just remember thinking I don't owe. this man the rest of my life, but I do. owe him the truth. about now. So I just said I am in love with a. woman. And. there was a lot of silence. And then. a week later we told the kids. And we had not even tested We had not.

been together except for that one night. we broke we blew it all up. Just Like you had never even kissed. You. had never Okay, hold on. She blew up her. whole life. Did that freak you out a. little? No. No. Yeah. You were like, let's go. You were waiting for a girl a straight. girl to blow up her whole life and. choose you. I was. And not go back. Yes. I was waiting for. it. But like here's the thing, this. story. a sane person would be like, this is.

this is not correct. You should probably. slow down. This is You should do this a. different way. And I totally get that, but there was. everything in my total body and knowing. and I think it was true for you Glennon. too that it was like this is where I'm. supposed to be. This is the person that. I'm supposed to build a life with. How. did your family react to you being like, I'm with a woman now? So I remember. texting my sister who is my person, my. we are inseparable, um. from a dressing room at the mall.

And I just said, I am in love with Abby. Wambach. It's like dropping sentences. It's so good. This is like hard to. There's no lead-in that's going to make. it better. So just. And then She's like, yeah, we all are.". Yeah, we all are. Like, join the club. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. like if I got that text, I'd be like, "Oh, yeah, like you're getting into. soccer? Right. Cool. Like, it's about. time." Like, like, "No.".

Finally. Yeah. And I said, "I'm in love with Abby. Wambach and I will never be able to be. with her and I am brokenhearted.". And she wrote back and it was like, you. know when you're like staring at the. dots, like what is coming? And she said, "Well, you have spent too much of your. life brokenhearted.". And it was just like. her immediate way of saying, "All right, let's go.". No, we're not going to land on just. brokenhearted. Like, let's That's hard. Let's choose the other hard. Um so, she was just There was a lot to.

work through. But, she was just immediately like, "Let's do this.". Can you share with me, once you guys got. into this relationship, everyone brings. a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you having gotten cheated. on. How did that impact your guys'. relationship with. Okay, I I hit the mother lode. You're. like, "Okay." How did it impact your. guys' relationship with trust? Call Her.

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Tinder. It starts with a swipe. Download. Tinder today. Everyone brings a little bit of baggage. from their past, obviously, and you. having gotten cheated on, how did it. impact your guys' relationship with. trust? So, I have never been in a. relationship that I wasn't cheated on, okay? Every single one of them, all of them, and I never know. I never know until I. know. So, I went into this relationship having. part of myself. know that it was going to happen again. And I I don't think I would have been.

able to explain this at the time, but I. think I felt like, "Okay, well, I can't. control whether it's going to happen, but I can control whether I'm just. totally annihilated by it. Like, I can. control whether I'm surprised by it. I. don't I just won't be surprised by it.". Cuz that's the part I can't handle. So, a lot of things happened, but one day, Abby was in the shower and she got out. too fast, like faster than her normal. shower. She got out too fast or too fast. for you? Her fault.

And she opened our door and I was on her. phone in bed, on her phone, looking. through her phone. And. It's so funny. I really I really like. having the moral high ground. Like, I. don't I don't know what to do in that. exact sort of situation. I wanted to. die. And we just both stared at each. other for a second, and then she says, she says,

"Oh, honey, what else do you need? Do. you Do you need my email passwords? Like, what. What else do you need to feel safe? Wow. I've also been cheated on. And so like. it was this moment that I was like, "Huh. Okay. This is not about me. I know what. I'm doing and I'm not doing anything. weird. I'm like this the most boring person in. the whole wide world.".

I can confirm that based on my my stupid. face. She's boring. Yeah. Come on.". And I think like. I don't know. I just think that it's. really in that moment. it's really. she's trying to soothe something a fear. that's happening. And I recognize that. immediately. And. of course you have that fear. I can't be. mad at you for for. being scared. Yeah, I was really scared.

That's something that has happened in. your life. And one of the vows that we. have made, especially since we've gotten. married cuz we did actually make vows, is like we don't want to use. each other's weaknesses against each. other. Like that's a that's something that is a. tender spot. And it's a tender spot to. me, too. So like when these things kind. of come up, we can't use it against each. other cuz like I could have And I know I. I I've not been like this in my life. This is probably sobriety really helping.

me be like, "What the fuck?" Like when. you're not sober. you're keeping secrets. Like they might. not be cheating secrets, but you're. keeping secrets. Like that's how you. stay alcoholic. Like it's the secrets. that take you down. So in my sobriety, I was just like, "Yeah, like what do you want? You want. my email passwords?". Luckily, I can never remember passwords, so that wouldn't have helped me. And I. didn't need all of that. It was just. that moment of like. such kindness and such.

I think it got just better after that. Did it? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Have. you been looking at my phone? Not since Tuesday. But now But now we. have every each other's passwords to. everything. Like Like I can open her. computer with my fingerprint. Like the. whole thing. I also love what you guys talked about. with the phone and the trust thing. because I have had so many people come. on and it hasn't been the reaction that. you've given, Abby, which I can imagine. there is a level of anger, for sure, someone has where it's like, "You don't.

trust me. Why are you going through my. stuff?" But to be met with such grace. and love, that makes now sense why Glenn. then you're like, "Oh, and then I never. need to do it again." Cuz when they also. blow up, it does give you even more. pause as a person looking through being. like, "Well, what are you freaking out. about and what is there to hide?" Not. that there's always something to hide, but that moment, I do think is a. defining moment for a lot of. relationships based off of, "Here, have. everything." Not that you need to give. them everything, but it's a nice gesture.

to be like, "I have no. Go on my Candy Crush account." Like. there is literally nothing on my phone. that I feel like I need to hide. Well, you have to think about it because like. there's there's the defensiveness that. shows up, right? And what is underneath. the defensiveness? It's like, "Okay, they don't trust me." That then that's. like the next level. And then you have. to go deeper than that. It's like, "Why. don't they trust me?" And then it has. literally probably nothing to do with. you. That's right. So, it's like if you can. do that equation and process that really. quickly, look, I have I have been the.

one that's like, "What? You don't trust. me?" And I'm defensive and I and I'm. like standing in the trust part of it. It's like, actually go one step deeper. And honesty, like being honest with. yourself because if you have if you have. untrustworthy behavior, that would kind of pro- propel somebody. or or or make them want to look through. your stuff in a way to like figure out. where you are or like find my whatever. Like, of course that that you will.

Yeah, it's just important to do that. process and to realize it's not. necessarily. a lot of stuff in relationship isn't. about you. No, I was thinking I can't. trust myself to make a good decision. That's what I thought, right? That's all. the research and whatever. Like, I. cannot trust myself to know if. something's going on. Yeah. I think I do trust that now. I think. that is like what what getting back in. your body is about, too. It's like. starting to pay attention and not.

gaslight yourself. It's a great point. cuz I think a lot of people listening, and specifically women, like, we're. always. kind of taught to question ourselves. Like, we're not supposed to be confident. and know what we want. It's like, question yourself and don't be so. confident. And you talking about being. in your body and how your life is. changing by starting to be more like. cognizant of like, where you are and who. you are in your relationships. Like, again, then having a beautiful. relationship that you guys are building. together, it makes it easier, but it. still is going to show up and then it's.

about how you guys handle those moments. that then, if anything, they get you. even closer. Like, that moment, like you. just said, we've never had something. like that except for last Tuesday. I'm. just kidding. You're like, Tuesday? Um, but that those moments make it so much. easier to be light and free and in your. body when you feel that safe. You're. like, oh, I don't even care about your. email. Don't give me the password. I'm. too busy. Um, can we talk about. intimacy? Mhm. Because I think a lot of. people when they think about. relationships, and kind of like how you. described it, Glennon,

sex for you, you were just like, oh, I. thought it was something you did, oils. changed, boom, bye, we're done. And I. think a lot of people think about sex. and intimacy as like, it the the way to. equate how good our relationship is is. how much we're having sex. Like, if someone is craving more intimacy in. the relationship currently, like, what. advice do you have for them listening. and watching? I guess just even saying that Mhm. is a. good start. Yeah, I think that. something that works for us is to like.

know what makes each other feel like. that that intimacy connection is there. Because we've been together for 10. years-ish. Is that right? Almost. Yeah, we're almost like we're in. our ninth ninth year. Oh my god. Um. and we've gone through ups and downs of. of not just like the actual act of like. sex, but like we've gone through ups and. downs of feeling really connected and so. in line and so on the same page and.

then, you know, stuff happens, people. die, diagnoses happen and it. it forces you kind of away from like. this homeostasis line in a way and. it's not my dream to be living at the. high high high of the in love-ness. because I don't think that that number. one chemically it's just not. sustainable. Like you have that happens. for the first couple of years and you're. just like infatuated with each other and. you can't keep your hands off each. other. But then you fall into a sense of.

loving, of complete partnership and. intimacy. and and you're kind of like here. Like. we You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean that was so scary for me, you remember? I was terrified cuz she. had never been in love before. And I had. been in love before and so I know that. when you fall off that love train, you're like, "I want to go back there.". And so you find somebody new and then so. that's what I did my whole life. I just. wanted to the love the love chemicals,

the love chemicals. Same as It's like. same as the success. Yeah. striving for Yes. It's Yes. It's the whole conversation. It's same. as booze. Yes. It's the same as the. falling in love part. They're all like. these fake versions of the thing. Yes. But they're easier to access cuz. they give you the adrenaline. And then. there's like these real versions of the. thing, right? That are harder. It's like. you you're sitting around with your. friends and you're like, is this boring? Or you're like with your wife on the. couch year seven and you're like, is.

this boring? Cuz the drugs are gone. Yeah. But. I mean, I remember you saying, you. telling me that it was going to change. Like when we were in the obsessive just. obliteration of early love. and you saying, this is going to end. And I said to you, I feel like you're. saying we're not going to love each. other as much. And you said, I'm telling. you we're going to have to love each. other more. Because. the drug of it is gone and then you. land. It's like the falling in love and. then you land and you're like two people.

again and you're like. what? Yeah. Like what? We're just two. people? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, I think that's intimacy. The. falling in love is not intimacy. Like. that can happen to any fool, right? Fool. the fall in love. That's just something. that happens to you, but then you have. to happen. Yes. other. Which I think that's intimacy. It's like. it's not a we thing. It's like here I am. and you're like here I am. And then the more intimate you can be. with yourself, I think it's our therapy.

It's our work we do individually Mhm. that makes us able to connect deeply as. two people. Yeah, it's like. it's like when when you're falling in. love, you're trying to enmesh. You're. trying to become what you are one. You. believe that you are the ones that that. have it. Remember we used to walk around and be. like, look at all these normal people. Yeah, and that have it forever, right? It's only you and this other person. It's me and Glennon and nobody else. knows what we're talking about.

We were insufferable. But then when you start landing in love, you become two individuals again that. hopefully are along the exact same path. And you know, like things happen where. the path goes a little bit further away. from that center line, but you our goals. in our life, at least mine, is to get as. close to that center line as possible so. that we're like you're you see this? This is crazy This is amazing. Like, okay, cool, cool. And we're we're. heading the right direction. And the. work that we do.

the therapy and the even our podcast is. like a therapeutic thing cuz we have to. like do a lot of research and thinking. and feeling and talking about really. hard things. And it's such an important. like avenue for us to not only be. intimate with each other, but to explore. our own intimacy with ourself. And that. that that deep desire for the two of us. that we both have to want to know. ourselves more. And then we get to have. like beginner's mind with each other. We.

get to be new people every day. And it's. so fun and also exhausting at times, but. fun for the most part. I can tell you. too. It's just you are talking so much. Like, the you're like, "Oh, wait, remember the other night that we were up. late talking like I think that it every. time you hear people give advice like. communicate." It's like, "Shut up." But. it actually, when you start to really. dissect what does communicating in a. relationship look like, it is literally. after the in love portion and you come. down and it's reality.

Are we compatible in what we want in. life? And so many people, there's. usually one person in the relationship. that's kind of vying for the other. person's attention be like, "Do you like. this?" And then the person's like, "No, I don't know." And then like, "Okay.". And then they kind of mold to that. person because the person that cares. least in the relationship has all of the. power. That's right. And so you're It's like this uneven. thing that when all of a sudden you find. that person that feels like your genuine. equal. Yes. and you are compatible, doesn't mean you're not going to.

disagree on things, but it's just this. like one step forward each time and. you're in lockstep. And there's nothing. more beautiful than having a partner. like that, but. it's rare to find. I feel like you can. both now like you've having been in. previous relationships, me too, it's so. rare to find, and that's what I want for. all the women listening like if you're. not sure, if you don't have that. feeling, it's probably that's your. answer, it's not there. Because like. what you guys are describing, yes, maybe. you're not going to meet someone that.

stands up and gravitates in the air. towards you, but that feeling of like. no, that I want to do the hard work with. this person, that I feel like if it's. missing, if it's not there, you kind of. know it's not the right person, cuz it. when it's right, you [ __ ] know it's so right. And I think you know it's right because. of how you feel. Like it's not even when. sometimes, you know, that that moment of. there she is, looking at Abby, like for. so long I thought that was about Abby.

But I think that there she is was. internal. Like I loved who I was in that. moment. Like she brought something out. of me, but I was in my body. I was. weird. I was arms open. I'm like not. making sense. I'm. that I like who I am with Abby. I. sometimes feel like. the way that you know if if a person's. compatible with for you is how you feel. about you. when you're with that person. It's not. necessarily that person, because so much.

of love, the way we've been taught, especially for women, is like we have to. disappear or get small or mirror or. become whatever that person wants us to. be, so we don't even know who we are. So like there's a version of love that. doesn't make you disappear, but makes. you expand. Up here. Up here. Yeah. In a way that. that's what you get and you fall in love. with. Is like this version of me that I. get to be on the earth because this. person allows me to be Yeah. that space. No, and like everyone watching this. right now, cuz I have so many people. that write in every day, and they're.

like, is this the right person for. That's it. How do you feel when you're. with this person?" And if you don't feel. like your best version of yourself, you. probably have the answer. Okay, wait. I. want to play a quick game. Yay. Cuz now. that you just said that you're getting. to like 10 years, um we need to play a. little who's more likely to. Okay. Who. is more likely to start a deep personal. intimate emotional conversation at 11:00. p.m. at night? We've never been awake at. 11:00 p.m. Yeah. Okay, late night. 7:00 p.m. 7:00 p.m. So 8:00 p.m. would.

be very, very late. it realistic, Alex. 7:00 p.m. That's a. bonus of being sober. You go to sleep. earlier. Who do you think This is a. tough one for us lesbians. I think it. would be me. You, I do too. Yeah. Thank. you. Cuz at 6:00 p.m. she starts to. power down. There. And you're like, "Honey, one thought I had." She's like, "Go to bed. Go to bed." Okay, who's more. likely to send a steamy text during a. work meeting? That's so good. sad. I never send you steamy text.

Yeah, it would be me, for sure. you. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do. it tomorrow. Do it tomorrow. Oh my god, this is so fun. Thank you, Alex. So. good. Okay, who's more likely to get a. spontaneous tattoo? Her. Really? a tattoo. Yeah. Yeah. Believe it or not, I don't have a single. one. You don't? No, and it's only because I was. terrified as a child and we were told. that if you got a tattoo, you would be. kicked out. That still lives in me. And I think the day after I would want. something different. So far.

it's for. It's for regret. Regret is. fun. Regret is proof you did something wild. at some point. Like you were wild and. crazy at some point. Those are the. years. Tomorrow, your spontaneous text, honey. Okay, who's more likely to get. too competitive at board games? Me. I knew that one. Who's more likely to. suggest skinny dipping on vacation? Ooh, for sure it would be me. Yeah. Yeah. Who's more likely to turn a. small moment into a metaphor for life. I mean. jam, Alex. I only understand.

Oh my god. Wait, can you think of one. that you've been like saying recently? now I'm thinking this really feels like. a bubble of love and I was going to talk. to you about it in the car, but I'm glad. we got to bring it up now. It does. Wait, tell me. What are you thinking? It just feels really good in here. Like. you are wonderful and this conversation. has been great and I don't know. It just. feels really. a. bubble of love. bubble of love. I love this bubble of. love. Okay, love. Who's more likely to. get on stage at karaoke?

Well, we have a story around this. My. wife is. Look at your face, Glenn. um. we do Girls Just Want to Weekend. It's a. weekend that Brandi Carlile puts on a. music festival weekend. And because we're friends with Brandi, she allows Glennon to go on stage and. perform a song. I performed "If I Can. Share If I Can Turn Back Time" very. seriously, Alex. I was not joking, okay? It was not a joke.

It was not a joke. I wore a full wig and. hat and fishnets and a G-string. My kids. were Our kids were like, "Are you sure, Mom?". Yo, and she doesn't sing. No. She's not a singer and got in front of. 5,000 people and performed a song, made. me be a sailor. my body, Alex. In my. body. You were in your body. You were in that. G-string. Yes. We What were you thinking when she. was on stage, Abby? Well, I went out there as like I was.

like um a sailor. Well, I was She got me. the sailor outfit because it's part of. the music video that Sheryl put out. But nobody knows that, so it just looked. like Abby was in a. like I was It was bizarre. It was. bizarre. But I was out there as like her. comfort like support person. Cuz she's got to go do this thing and we. go out there and Brandi is also on stage. singing back back up to make sure that. Glennon can get through the song. Well, instantly we realize Glennon doesn't. need any backup. She's crushing it. And.

now I'm just like. loitering. I'm like, what am I doing up here? This. is I look ridiculous. Glennon is like. all over the stage and sliding on her. knees and the crowd is going wild. I was. like I was laughing with Brandy in the. back of part of the stage. And then all. of a sudden Glennon comes and jumps uh. into my arms and I grab her. My hands. are on her ass, total ass fishnet ass. And she goes, "Take me off stage.". scared. I got scared. Like 3 minutes in.

I could went back in my body was like, "Oh, this isn't a good idea." And so I. just said, "Get me out of here.". Get me out of here. Yeah. But it was the. best. I'm so proud of you. That takes. confidence. Yeah. And I can only imagine. Abby as you're sitting there being like, "That's my wife." It was amazing. And. she had a little bit of like a. vulnerability hangover that night. And. then we got to the airport the next. morning cuz that was the day we were. leaving. And all of the concert goers. were coming up to her like, "You were. amazing. That was the most It was.

amazing." That's the best. that you got that feedback because I get. what you mean when you're laying there. you're like, "Wait, was I like being. kind of cringe? Like did it Was it okay? Like did I sound okay?" And then. everyone's like, "Babe, you crushed.". Like I was in a fetal position in the. bed in the hotel going, "Did I humiliate. Was that the best moment of my life or. the worst moment of my. Like it was fun. It was amazing. Okay, who's more likely to sleep past noon on. a weekend? I would sleep longer. Who's. more likely to start a hobby and forget. it 2 weeks later? Me. Okay. It's okay.

It's okay. But first to buy all the gear. for it. Yeah. Oh, I'm a gear person. Oh, I'm the same way. Like I will go and buy. things and be like, "I'm doing this.". And then I'm like, "Oh." And then Matt loves to be like, "Remember when you said you were going. to get into Pilates and I bought you a. Pilates machine and you've used it two. times." And I'm like, "Please, this is. enough." He's like, "Remember when you. tried tennis?" And I was like, "Shut up, okay? I'm going to get back to. it at some point." Um who's more likely. to suggest staying in instead of going. out? Ooh, both of us. Okay, love that. Same. Who's more likely. to say, "I have a new idea for a book.

{slash} podcast {slash} project?". That's all we say. That's all we talk. about. Yeah. I've had 12 ideas just during this. conversation. Okay, can't wait to go download. We're going to We're doing work. We're. working We're working today, ladies. We're putting in work. Okay, who's more. likely to give the other unsolicited. advice? Oh, I recently learned that. unsolicited advice is criticism and I. should stop. So, I go to Al-Anon now. I go to Al-Anon five times a week so I. can stop giving advice. Do you feel the.

difference? Yes. Oh, that's good. Yep, for sure. I'll report back to my meeting. Yeah, no, it's great. You guys, I. had the best time with you. I like don't. want this to end. I think something that. is like my favorite part of my job is. when I get to sit down with people that. I obviously like see on social media or. I'm a fan of fan of and then getting to. actually speak to you guys like we are. in my living room and we're just talking. about things that we clearly talk about. in real life. It was such a pleasure to.

get to hang out with you guys because. seeing your relationship up close and. personal, it's so beautiful and. inspiring and I hope so many people take. from this like the work you both have. done from childhood, all the things you. guys have gone through to get to this. point and then to make this beautiful. marriage work and it is work, but it's. fun work and it's good work. Like I just. thank you guys for opening up to me. today cuz I know we got We got a little. deep in moments, but it was it was. really fun and it was a pleasure. So, thank you. Love bubble. Love bubble.

We love you. Thank you. I love you guys. You guys are. the best. Hey.