Trump’s SECRET Mar-a-Lago SCANDAL exposed

I'm joined now by chief Washington. correspondent and author of the new book. Retribution: Donald Trump and the. Campaign That Changed America, Jonathan. Carl. Jonathan, thanks so much for. joining me. >> Hey, thanks a lot for having me. >> All right, so this book is entitled. Retribution. Obviously, we're seeing the. extent to which that's playing out right. now. We've seen indictments against. James Comey, Leticia James, John Bolton. Were these uh were these indictments. surprising to you? And beyond that, do. you think there is an extent to which. Donald Trump is going to at any point. curb his his thirst for vengeance as he.

continues to move forward in his. administration? I. >> I see no signs of of of curbing that. thirst for vengeance. And it's not just. the indictments. I mean, it's the way. he's gone after uh the major law firms, uh the universities, uh the way that he has um you know, both. courted and threatened the tech. companies. You remember when when he. left the White House, he was effectively. a pariah. He was banned on social media. Major corporations in this country were. saying that they were not doing any.

donations to Republicans who supported. him and overturning or trying to. overturn the 2020 election. And of. course, um he faced all those criminal. indictments, uh the impeachments and and. all of that. So his retribution is is. beyond DOJ. DOJ is a key part of it. Am. I surprised? No. Uh I mean he made. pretty clear this is what he wanted to. do and then he put into positions of. authority people who had explicitly said. that they were going to do this. You.

know Cash Patel first and foremost uh as. the director of the FBI. You know, so much of the Republican. brand was predicated on this idea that. they were against the weaponization of. government. And now, not only are they. okay with weapon weaponization of. government, but they're barreling ahead, to your exact point, having put people. in power whose whose sole raise on detr. is basically to just seek vengeance. against their political opponents. And. so does there seem to be in your. conversations with folks you've spoken.

with, does there seem to be any. bristling happening among folks on on. the right among these Republican-. elected officials who again put so much. of their brand into this idea that that. they were against it back when Democrats. were in power? >> Uh certainly nothing. I mean almost. nothing publicly. Privately, yes. Some. uh you know that there's some mostly. that it's not an effective political. strategy. Not that it's wrong or that. it's, you know, an abuse of federal. power. Uh really what what you hear is, you know, this is, you know, people want.

us to concentrate on the economy, on on. on crime, on the border, on on the on. the other things that Donald Trump. talked on, you know, campaigned on. I. mean, the thing is he did campaign on. retribution. uh not just in the. beginning, you know, when he said, "I am. your retribution." at that at that. famous uh speech at CPAC shortly after. he announced his campaign early 2023. He. he lo his first rally is at Waco, Texas, explicitly making the comparison um or I.

should say implicitly but others talked. about it explicitly uh the comparison. between what happened at Waco, Texas. with the federal showdown with the. branch dividians seen by the far right. as a great symbol of the federal abuse. of power. Um I mean this is this is core. uh to what he campaigned on and you. certainly don't see anybody pushing back. in any significant way in his. administration. One thing that did. happen um was when the Comey indictment.

came down uh before it came down when it. was in the process of coming down uh the. leadership of the justice department did. gently push back and you know and say. this is you know this is not a fully. baked case we shouldn't go forward at. least not at this time. Uh that was Pam. Bondi. It was uh it was Todd Blanch. number one and two at DOJ. Uh but Trump. barreled ahead. You know, I mean it was. because of Trump that the you know that. you now have Lindseay Halligan the top. prosecutor in one of the most important.

US attorneys offices in the country and. leading not just the indictment of Comey. but the indictment of Tish James and the. suggestion that there are a whole list. of others uh that that it could be. indicted soon as well. Well, isn't this. kind of a leopard's eating faces party. type situation? Because the irony of all. of this is that the reason that there. won't be any push back or any vocal push. back at least is because those very. people who are enabling this retribution. tour right now know that if they do.

speak out that they'll be on the. receiving end of it. >> Yeah. I I mean because this is a very. you rais a very important point which is. that the retribution which right now we. see you know aimed at Tis James also. Comey Comey let's not forget is a. Republican or always was a Republican. sort of Republican administrations also. works in Democratic ad but but you know. he is a uh he is a lifelong or was a. lifelong Republican um but but very high. on the list of enemies um for Donald. Trump and and explicitly placed out by.

you know Cash Patel famously in his book. are Republicans. I mean, one person that. uh Steve Bannon has suggested recently. should also be indicted is Bill Bar, you. know, you know, Donald Trump's. >> that that crunchy liberal Bill Bar. [laughter]. >> Yeah. I mean, first of all, there's. nobody the Democrats hated more than. Bill Bar for God's sake, you know. And. then he did, >> but I mean, look, he committed the. cardinal sin of saying that Donald. Trump's stolen election claims during. the 2020 election were He did. the carninal sin of telling the truth. about the 2020 election and doing so.

without any hedging whatsoever and. that's why they want to actually you. know indict him. >> You know you had spoken about a number. of officials in the book who were. instrumental in kind of um playing a key. role amid the infighting as as Trump. built out his administration from Mara. Lago. Uh can you talk about the role. that Steve Bannon, Kevin McCarthy, and. Pete Hegsth played? Yeah, I mean I I tried to really get the. behind the scenes version of what was.

actually going on after Trump won reun. the White House and began the. transition. Mostly headquartered out of. Mara Lago, which by the way is not a. very big place. It's a private club. It's not there there's no office space. to speak of at at Mara Lago. Trump has. an office. That's kind of it. I mean, if. there if there was office space, he. probably wouldn't have put boxes of. classified documents in next to the. toilet. >> Ex. Exactly. And there is a big Trump. transition officer. There was, which was.

the old campaign headquarters, a couple. of miles away in West Palm Beach. But. Trump wasn't going to go there. And. everybody knew that the only way to. really make inroads in the transition to. get a job in a a significant job in the. White House was going to be to go to. Mara Lago and get facetime with Donald. Trump. So I went and described this. scene which was uh you know there was a. first of all I should say there was a. perception and there was some analysis. early on not very good analysis I don't. think that um that Trump's second.

transition was so much more smoothly run. uh than his first uh you know that Susie. Wilds had really you know imposed some. discipline they were getting their. announcements out much earlier uh there. was a real process in place I mean no um. I I mean, there was maybe less public. drama. Um, and and Susie Wilds does a. great job of limiting that. Um, but it. was it was the wild west uh in in that. in at Mara Lago kind of making up his.

mind on the fly to make picks. I mean, you know, you didn't mention Gates uh. you know, Matt Gates was decided. basically, you know, without even. anybody, I mean, being in the loop on. this. Uh Trump just like, you know, that. was a Steve Bannon thing. Steve Bannon. had no role in the transition, but he. was a monumental influence in that. transition. I mean, the reason why, a. big reason why Cash Patel is the FBI. director that Gates was chosen, obviously it failed. He ultimately draw. withdrew was because of Bannon. Scott.

Besson was a uh was a major Steve Bannon. guy, came on the scene uh through. Bannon's War Room uh you know, podcast. And you know, Bannon actually I write. about I would I spent some time in Mara. Lago um during this time obviously and. trying to you know think not just for. the daily reporting but I I knew I. wanted to actually try to describe the. scene that was going on. I describe what. some people down there called the. alternative or the real transition,

which was a a group of real MAGA, you. know, um uh you know, hardcore Trump. acolytes who operated off of a yacht uh. just about a a little ways away the. inter coastal waterway. Uh the yacht was. owned by a retired coal magnate. His. name is John Rich. I actually visited. this yacht, talked to people there. They. would have meetings there. They would. have afterparties after dinner at Mara. Lago. And it was it was this little core. of um you know people pushing for for.

various folks in the administration that. was making the case for you know some of. the most you know hardcore uh you know. MAGARight nominee that Trump ultimately. chose. >> Well, it sounds like there was a lot of. a lot of jockeying and and trying to. prove their loyalty to Donald Trump. I. mean look, you know, we had opened this. conversation talking about the very. concept of retribution, the title of the. book, and I had asked kind of. incredulously why people would on the. right in this movement that again stakes.

so much of their identity on on their. disdain, their purported disdain for the. weaponization of government. But it. sounds like the reason that they're okay. with it is just because this. administration was just built up of. people who had spent all of this time. jockeying for position and showing their. loy proving their loyalty to Donald. Trump. And so that's why they're. perfectly content to contract, you know, contract away all of their purported. values and instead just do whatever. Donald Trump uh uh tells them he wants. them to do. >> I mean, the hypocrisy on this point is.

obvious, but I think that a lot of these. folks actually don't see the hypocrisy. I mean, some do and they say, "Who. cares? We're in a fight. We're going to. use whatever tools we want." But. in the mindset, it is rooting out and. punishing those who weaponized. government. So, you're so you're. weaponizing the government to neutralize. the people that weaponized the. government. I mean, it's you kind of get. you have to get into the mindset. Um and.

and this is what you know this was the. case that was made uh by some of Trump's. most loyal supporters, the few people. that really stuck with him after uh in. the immediate aftermath of him leaving. the White House. Uh that that the. problem here is not just, you know, the. Democrats that impeached him. It's not. just even the prosecutors that that. indicted him. It's the Republicans who. didn't sufficiently defend him and who. made this all possible. >> Right? this is this is a a message to. other Republicans that that he will.

accept total loyalty and nothing else. To that point, you know, is there any. sense that these people truly believe. that that the government was weaponized. against Trump or or that what they're. doing right now is actually being done. in good faith? I mean, like these people. these people have to be have to be smart. enough to understand that the objective. reality that Trump didn't win the. election. And and you know there's a. part big part of me that also believes. that Trump himself is smart enough to. understand. Are are they is this. kayfabe? Are they all is this just a bit.

they're all playing so that they can. cowtow to Trump or or did you get any. sense, you know, in your interactions. with these people that they're true. believers that they really believe the. 2020 election was stolen and that they. have to take these extraordinary steps. uh in order to neutralize those those. Democrats and Republicans uh who had. been there looking to to to weaponize. the government against Donald Trump who. was completely innocent. Don't don't. underestimate the power of the reality. distorting uh uh apparatus that that has.

been built up over the last several. years. Uh look, clearly there are people. that know the gig. Um, and by the way, one of the things the January 6. committee, uh, you know, did with the. with with the power of being able to. compel people to testify, um, was to get. a whole long list of people around Trump. to say under oath that no, the election. was not stolen. I didn't see any. evidence the election was stolen. Um,

you know, that that that's that includes. people that were there with him at the. White House. That includes the people. that were running his campaign. Um, and. they finally, you know, gig is up. I'm. I'm under oath. No, I saw no evidence. that the election was stolen. By the. way, all of those people are gone. They. are not back. >> Those people are done. And so, you know, now that you have to kind of go along. with it. So, there certainly are people. that are kind of cynically or, you know, just just saying I'm doing what I have. to do. But, let's go one rung beyond.

that. I mean, you go out and you talk to. um Republican voters, people that really. love Donald Trump, who, you know, don't. have a job at stake, uh, and and you. find people who truly believe that the. election was stolen. The repeating of. the lie over and over and over again has. really sunk in. And you have people. saying, "You really think that Joe Biden. could have beaten Donald Trump? You.

really believe that? There's no way." I. mean I mean it just it's it's in the. head. I'm not saying that they, you know, buy into some of the kookier. conspiracy theories about dead. Venezuelans rigging voting machines, but. they think that the that the election. was, you know, was was rigged in some. way. They buy into, you know, Trump's. repeated, you know, allegations about. paper ballots or whatever. I mean, so I. I think that there are a lot of people. in this country and yes, some in the. senior positions at the White House and.

the Justice Department who do actually. believe this stuff. I'm not saying I. mean, there are clearly many that don't, but but I but I think that the lie has. taken hold and it might frankly at this. point I can cannot read Donald Trump's. mind. I have strong evidence uh that. after the election he knew he had lost. in 2020 but. I think that in his own head he's now. fully come to believe it. >> Believe that he won. Believe that he.

won. >> That's going to be that was going to be. my next question. You know you had you. had mentioned um Steve Bannon and his. outsides influence in building up this. administration. You know, Steve Bannon. came out a few days ago and suggested. for the eenth time already that Donald. Trump is going to be president in 2028. that they're going to find some maneuver. to get him in. Trump has since kind of, you know, flirted with it and then. walked back. I mean, you know, whatever. Trump says about this this issue, like. all other issues is just kind of uh the. product of whatever, you know, the last.

person he spoke to or some fleeting, you. know, errant synapse that fires in his. brain and that's just his decision for. the day and it can change tomorrow or. the next day. Do you believe uh that. Steve Bannon is telling the truth? Do. you have any concern that Donald Trump. is going to, you know, move forward and. seek a third term in some unoured way or. some constitutionally um subversive way? I don't think that Trump actually. intends to do that. Could the situation. kind of spiral and uh you know enough. people tell him, "Oh my god, the people.

want you. The people need you. You know, you got to do it again." I mean, I think. that's possible. But I I I think that. Trump's intention, right? As a matter of. fact, I know because I've talked to. people who are close to Trump who are. actually, you know, friends with Donald. Trump who uh say that that he has said. privately, uh, you know, no, no, I'm I'm. done. I'm I'm playing golf. uh you know. I I'm you know I'm not staying I'm not. sticking around. Uh but you know I mean. Bannon's out there beating the drums on. that. I think by the way that one of the. reasons why Steve Bannon is saying that.

is not necessarily that he actually. wants Trump to run for a third term but. he does not want JD Vance to get a a. head start at all. He's got m and a lot. of this is public. He does not get along. with JD Vance. So, he wants to make it. very difficult, if not impossible, for. JD Vance to at some point step forward. and saying, you know, I'm starting my uh. exploratory committee to run for. president in 2020. >> If if there's this general sense that.

Trump may still be the guy that that. effectively freezes the field. >> Yeah. It's betrayal. If Trump hasn't, you know, explicitly ruled it out and. said, "I'm retiring." You know, uh and. you're saying you're going to run. What? You're going to run? I mean, if he run, what what are you what are you saying? So, yes, it freezes the field. And by. the way, if you've noticed, maybe you. haven't because you have to really kind. of burrow in, and I spent a lot of time. burrowing into these into these places, but the other thing that Bannon has been. doing lately, uh, is he's been. increasingly critical of Marco Rubio,

somebody who he did come to uh, you. know, accept as a fellow populist. despite his history as, you know, a. neoconservative and, uh, his, you know, advocacy of of immigration, amnesty, and. all those things that he did earlier in. his uh, in his Senate career. Uh uh but Bannon now has become. increasingly critical of Marco Rubio. over what is happening in Venezuela. Uh. Bannon as a you know America first. meaning essentially an isolationist.

foreign policy is horrified to see a. military buildup around Venezuela. Uh it. doesn't fit with what he believes an. America first foreign policy is. And he. blames not Donald Trump for that because. Bannon never blames Donald Trump for. anything. He blames Marco Rubio. Um. because Rubio is the biggest advocate. for what's happening. At least that's. the case Bannon is making. >> John, while you were writing this book, Retribution, what was what was the most. striking part of it to write?

>> Well, it was it was a couple of things. one was certainly that whole scene. around the transition and I found out. you know the as you'll see there is. there are some pretty wild reporting. about you know what was going on and. then jockeying to put together the Trump. cabinet but the other thing is the. actual Trump Biden relationship because. I spent a great deal of time uh. dissecting and reporting on the halfozen. or so times that that Donald Trump and. Joe Biden actually interacted in.

privately the first one privately after. the shooting in Butler. The first time. was that day. Uh a phone conversation I. talked to uh people that overheard the. conversation. So I have a very good. sense of what happened in that phone. call. I have a very good uh description. detailed description of their. interactions when um when Trump came to. the White House after the election. you. remember he met for two and a half hours. with Trump without any cameras presence. in the Oval Office and also their.

interactions on three occasions on. January 20th the day of the inauguration. and you know Trump is as warm and. friendly like treating Biden like he's. an old friend and he admires him and if. it weren't for politics you know we'd be. good friends uh you know very gracious. towards Jill Biden uh and by the way Joe. Biden's also equally y gracious back to. Donald Trump completely at odds with. what we were seeing play out and what. we're seeing play out now in front of.

the cameras. Um so that that was quite. interesting. You know, also the the the. interaction of of Nancy Pelosi and. Barack Obama um as they were trying to. find a way to deal with the fact that. they and so many other Democrats believe. that Biden just had to get out of the. race. >> Yeah. >> How they could nudge him out without. doing it in a publicly frontal way. how. they really wanted to avoid a coronation. uh for Kla Harris and and and those. interactions. Absolutely fascinating.

>> Well, I highly recommend the book, Retribution: Donald Trump and the. Campaign that Changed America. I'm going. to put that link right here on the. screen and also in the post description. of this video. Jonathan Carl, thanks so. much for taking the time. >> Hey, I really appreciate you having me. on and let's uh we'll see you in person. soon, I hope. [music].