Trump gets news he FEARED ahead of midterms

I'm joined now by the author of the new. book, This is the plan, how to end. America's meltdown and save democracy, Ben Wikler. Ben, thanks for joining me. >> It's great to be with you in person for. the first time. That's right. >> So, I have to ask first and foremost, the book is about a plan that you. prescribe in order to, you know, get. over this this hurdle that we're. contending with right now. Does that. suggest that you have optimism about. what the future of democracy in this. country can look like? >> Yes. I both have optimism that comes. from having lived and organized and.

fought for years now in my home state. where I grew up, where it seemed like. democracy had been broken and smashed to. pieces and, you know, a lot of folks. looking at Wisconsin from across the. country thought, "Okay, like that's a. red state now even if the public doesn't. like it.". >> I mean I mean I I know that folks don't. really remember this, but like Wisconsin. was as badly gerrymandered as North. Carolina and it felt like it was just. there was no way to get it back because, I mean, it was so skewed, so lopsided. All of the the legislation that was. being proposed was so far right-wing and.

it's like where do you even begin to to. get us back to to zero? >> It It looked as though it had fully gone. over the cliff and also unions were. smashed and votes were suppressed, one. of the most restrictive voting laws in. the country. And then they started. defunding schools and, you know, doing. all the stuff that Trump is trying to do. at the national level now. And it took. thousands of people rolling up their. sleeves and building a multi-year. step-by-step plan to be able to get out. of that mess. But if we could do it in. my state, which was like the crown jewel.

for the right, you know, the project red. map and the Koch brothers network and. this whole right-wing machine that. fixated on Wisconsin as the exemplar of. how you could break democracy in a. state, if we could do that where I live, then we can do this nationwide. And what. I do in the book is map out what each. person can do, how the the work that. each of us does can actually add up to a. system to or a a battle plan, a road. map, a field guide to unrig American. politics in general in a moment that. feels like a just overwhelming crisis.

Writing the book, thinking through. step-by-step, state-by-state what it's. going to take, actually gave me a sense. of hope and optimism cuz once you see. the path, you can't unsee it. There's a. way to get to a way better place than. where we are right now, even though the. headlines on any particular day make you. want to pull your hair out of your head. >> What is one thing that you wrote, one. one solution that you prescribed that I. think could could serve as a pretty apt. microcosm for what this book brought. more broadly represents? >> So, my favorite thing is the dorkiest thing. in the book, which is. something called the National Popular.

Vote Interstate Compact. >> you're you're talking my language. [laughter] here. Keep going. >> All right. So, we live in this. preposterous system where we elect. presidents not by who wins the election, but by who wins the majority of the. Electoral College votes. You need 270. Electoral College votes to win. People. like playing with the online maps where. you can flip this state or that state. You know, you talk about the different. paths to victory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, it is so dumb. There's no reason it. should be like that. And most Democrats. and Republicans and independents agree.

that it's a preposterous system. There's. There's no reason why the person who won. the election shouldn't become president. Uh the reason why we haven't amended the. Constitution and got rid of the. Electoral College is that right now. a lot of Republicans in power think that. this gives them an unfair advantage that. they want to hold on to. Uh. this is not a system that any other. country in the world since the advent of. American democracy has adopted, nor has. our government recommended it to any. other country. [laughter]. >> The shocker. >> Yeah. It's just It is It's a It's a very. stupid, dumb, bad system. And I say.

this, I should say, as someone who was. actually on the Electoral College in my. state myself. So, I'm I'm an Electoral. College insider. It sucks. >> And And Wisconsin is a beneficiary of. all of the attention that gets heaped. onto it as the direct result of the. Electoral College. >> Look, I love Wisconsin. I think. Wisconsin is the best state in the. entire union, and it's not even close. But, I don't think Wisconsin I should. have way more power to choose the. president than people in the rest of the. country. I think that part of what I I. love about my state is that we're state. that believes in the idea of democracy. and we should be a one-person, one-vote.

system on a national basis. Most. Americans presidential campaigns are. spectator sport. They can they can. contribute money, maybe they can remote. volunteer in a battleground state, but. their ballot is basically meaningless. But this can be fixed not just soon, but. like next year without passing a federal. law or amending the Constitution. So. this is this this bill that was drafted. some years ago that basically says. each state chooses how to how to assign. its electors in the Electoral College.

So what if you got a bunch of states to. hold hands together and say, "Hey, if. enough of us to add up to 270 Electoral. College votes jump together and give our. Electoral College votes to whoever wins. the presidential election gets the the. national popular vote?". This law only takes effect if it's. enough Electoral College votes to. actually choose the president. >> Right. >> We can all hold hold hands, look each. other in the eye and say, "All right, let's be a a real democracy." And states. already representing 222 Electoral. College votes have already passed this. law, which means we're only 48 short,

which means that if people who believe. in democracy, which right now. overwhelmingly means Democrats, win the. the state governments in enough states. to pass this law. uh to to to have 48 more Electoral. College votes represented, you could get. this thing done in 2027. And I map out. in the book which state that is. Starts. with my wonderful home state of. Wisconsin. Uh we have 10 Electoral. College votes. We could win a majority. in both legislative chambers and the. governorship this fall. Uh you could do.

the same thing in Michigan and. Pennsylvania, in Nevada. You could do. this in Arizona, which hasn't had a. democratic uh trifecta in the state. government for more than half a century, but it could totally get there. New. Hampshire, dominated by Republicans. right now. They have some of the the. tiniest districts for the state house in. in uh New Hampshire sometimes decided by. like two or three vote margins. We could. totally flip the entire state blue. And that combination of states right. there means the Electoral College could. become a formality and we could have. national popular vote in this country.

And there's other states where this is. possible, too, like Alaska, which I'm. sort of obsessed with this cycle. So, those are elections that no one is. talking about. They get no attention. They're never on cable news and where a. few people volunteering a little more, a. group of friends deciding that they're. going to donate to state legislative. candidates, they can flip state. legislative chambers. They could unrig. the system to choose the most powerful. person in the entire world. And once you. realize that, it is hard not to want to. be involved in fighting for these. offices where a little push can change. everything. >> So, let me let me ask a question about. that because these are states that you. just named that have a lot of attention.

heaped onto them expressly because of. the entrenchment of the Electoral. College. So, is there going to be any. pushback in these states because they're. basically saying, you know, we get all. of these presidential candidates running. through our state over and over and over. again because they have to get Michigan. They have to get Arizona. They have to. get Wisconsin. Do you think that there's. going to be any pushback within those. states to this idea of kind of neutering. themselves or or or undermining the. importance of those particular. battleground states by basically saying, you know, we want to make make it so.

that there's, you know, states like. California and New York where the. populations are much bigger and often go. completely ignored by these presidential. candidates, those places have more uh. importance. >> The short answer is no. And the reason. is that we've experienced in all these. states in 2016 all of those states. uh uh with the exception of New. Hampshire, uh they went for Donald Trump. Uh. let me say that again, actually. New New. Hampshire, Nevada didn't go for Donald. Trump, but Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Georgia, >> Yeah. >> they all went for Trump, but Hillary.

Clinton won the presidential election. And in all of those states and in a ton. of other places, everyone was like, "This is This is crazy. Like, >> Yeah. >> you know, why don't all votes count the. same?" Uh let's let's abolish the. Electoral College. Big majorities of. Republicans and Democrats in. battleground states and everywhere else, they want to get rid of the Electoral. College. We can't do it because the. system is stuck by a group of people who. benefit from it. If you own a TV station. in a battleground state, then you make a. lot of money from having, you know, swing state status. But for most people, it is actually a huge pain in the ass. Like.

in Wisconsin and in all the battleground. states, Donald Trump was sending mail to. millions of people literally every day. I talked to a mail carrier when I was. out knocking on doors in Wisconsin and. they were like having back problems cuz. they had such a gigantic bundle of mail. >> And by the way, we get those mailers and. we throw them in the trash. >> Yeah, yeah. They Most of that stuff. doesn't affect anything. There's a lot. of grift in politics that is like. hyper-focused on these battleground. states. And just also at a at a deeper. level, most people don't want to live in a. rigged system, even if it advantages. their side a little bit. Most Most.

people. across party, they feel like the overall. system doesn't serve regular people and. they're right. We have a system that is. rigged to serve a tiny group of. typically far-right billionaires at the. the very top of the pyramid of money and. power in this country. And so, regardless of who you're voting for for. president, you can tell that our current. president is not actually serving your. interests. Uh, I think the appetite to change the. system that produces the results is as. big as the appetite for changing the. results for people who feel like this. country is unaffordable, that is out of.

control. Uh, let's change the system so. we can, you know, let's change the. plumbing so that we can actually get the. right temperature water coming out of. the tap. >> So, in your book you talk about building. up coalitions and and I agree with with. this idea. Like fundamentally what. politics is is cobbling together a. coalition so that you can actually. exercise some power at the end of the. day. And and that would include, you. know, a Democratic coalition would. include moderates, it would include. progressives, it would include labor, environmentalists, business interests, you name it. Each of these groups has a. little bit of a different idea in terms.

of how the party should comport itself, how the party should be run. Um, and. we've seen the disagreements that kind. of emerge from that lack of consensus or. the cobbling together of these. coalitions. So, is the current level. of disagreement that we're seeing in. primaries this year, um, is that unusual or is it typical of. of I guess what we're seeing right now. amplified by social media? >> So, it is totally true that social media. amplifies conflict that, you know, attention tends to go where the sparks.

fly and that's just how our brains are. wired and that's why social media. algorithms are are tuned that way so we. can spend more time on our phones. Uh, at the same time it is healthy for a. party that has lost power to have a real. debate about how to win power back. For. all the things that Democrats disagree. about, there's so much that Democrats. and most Americans do agree about and. none of those things will happen. We're. not going to have health care for. everyone until people who believe in. health care for everyone win enough. offices to be able to pass a law and. abolish the filibuster. It's another. topic in the book. So, I think it's.

actually good to have some of these. debates and having these in state and. state primaries right now helps set the. stage for a national conversation as we. have a presidential primary in 2028. If. you look at parties out of power, you. know, this time the Republicans did not. have a a real debate. Donald Trump just. rolled everybody and he won again, but. he's a total disaster leading the. country, right? It is so bad for America. that Republicans didn't actually. recalibrate during their time in the. wilderness. I think, you know, for. Democrats, as long as we agree to join.

together after the primaries, it's fine. to have a big debate before the. primaries. But the day after the. primary, then everyone has to has to. join together and say, "Look, even if we disagree about this or that. thing, and there are important. significant disagreements, we have to. throw down against the people who want. to break democracy itself and basically. rip off the vast majority of the. American public to benefit those at the. top." If we do that, I think that, you. know, we can have this disagreement now, we can win in November, and then we can.

be a a democracy and and a and have a. country that uh you know that everyone. can be proud of for the long term. That's That is the job. Argue and then. unite. >> What examples do you have of this. process kind of playing itself out and. working in Wisconsin? Obviously, in. order to win Wisconsin not just win in. Wisconsin, but overcome a system that is. scientifically engineered to entrench. Democrats minority status. What what was. some of that work of cobbling together. coalitions? Was it difficult? Did it. serve as a kind of a microcosm of what.

we're seeing right now? And and how was. that ultimately done? >> So, this is one of the arguments I make. in the book is that. there's often this disagreement, you. know, from the left to the center about like. should you focus on persuasion or. turnout, swing voters or people who. might not want to vote. And often that. argument happens as though people have. this like checklist of policies and. they're comparing their candidates to. the checklist. But people who are swing. voters or people who might or might not. vote usually have something in common, which is that like their real life is.

over here and all of politics is way. over here. >> Yeah. >> They often feel like politics is like. curling, the Olympic sport of curling, which is you see it on TV for a couple. weeks every 4 years and then you go back. to real life. >> Right. >> And if you want to enlist those voters, then you need to go where they are. And. that means actually talking to them and. listening to their answers. And right. now we're getting the the same answer. from most voters across the country, which is the sense that everything costs. too damn much and it is out of control. and whoever it is that is causing these. costs to skyrocket, maybe they shouldn't.

be able to write the rules. And you. know, it's pretty clear who the the. people are who are writing those rules. right now. So, even though there is a lot of coalition. work to be done, what we found in. Wisconsin is that when we focus on. getting out of our own heads and our own. meetings and going out and talking to. voters, that we we find common ground. pretty fast. And that's how we've been. able to work on state Supreme Court. races, for example. We go and you know, find out from people what is most moti-. moti- motivating for them. We had a. total abortion ban in Wisconsin that was. passed before the Civil War. And so,

you know, most people do not want. politicians telling them what they can. do with their bodies. And abortion, even. though it's faded from the national. headlines, people get that the state. Supreme Court decides on that. And that. has been a huge voting issue over and. over and over. And until the right stops. nominating people who, you know, want. politicians to be in in charge of. people's bodies, then you're you're. going to still have that as a major. voting issue. >> What issues do you think are are. good for, you know, internal debate. versus which ones are genuinely harmful. to the prospect of being able to unite.

moving forward? >> So, I mean, I I genuinely think what you. campaign on has to be connected to what. the voters are concerned about. And it's. the the biggest things that for people. who have given up on politics, don't. believe either party can actually do. anything, it starts by listening to them. The. affordability crisis has different forms. in different places. A lot of places. it's the cost of housing. But some. places, a lot of people rent. Some. places, nobody rents their house and. they they can't, you know, afford to buy. one. For some places, it's groceries. Some. places, the hospitals have all closed.

They have to drive 2 hours to be able. to, you know, get a a broken bone set or. to be able to deliver a baby. Like, understanding the people in your. district and listening to them and. connecting is the biggest thing. Which. means that the right message and the. right issue actually depends on on folks. where they are. Now, there are, you. know, huge debates and disagreements. within the Democratic Party right now. about how to get to universal health. care, about uh you know, our policies. around Israel and Palestine, around like. a whole range of different things. And. it's important to like think through. what our values lead us to believe and.

how we build a coalition and how we. connect with voters on this stuff. And at the same time as all those things. happen, thinking about the the people who are. most like disillusioned and disinfected. with politics in general and connecting. with them, that the the the way to. resolve that debate is by going and. talking to those voters. And the the. candidates that I see that are having. the best effect, wherever they sit. within the Democratic coalition are the. ones that are voicing this deep sense of. frustration and frankly anger that. people have about a system that is. obviously not working for them.

>> Right. Um, you know, switching gears a. little bit here, I would be remiss not. to ask you about this, but I read three. pieces about uh DNC chair Ken Martin. this week and he currently holds that. role that you challenged him for. In In. your estimation, do you think that the. criticism being leveled at him is fair. or does it feel like kind of the usual. in-fighting that Democrats fall into? >> So, I ran for DNC chair, came up short. in that race. I learned a lot in that. process. I don't want to armchair.

quarterback. I you know, I I want the. the the most success possible for the. for the DNC and for the Democratic Party. at every level in this moment when it's. holding the line against this. authoritarian regime. What I will also. say and I write in the book, I have a. chapter about the Democratic Party with. the title, It's My Party and I'll cry if. I want to. Um, it's all. >> That's apt. >> Apt. [laughter]. It's all of our party. Um, and if you. talk to people within the the Democratic. Party kind of, you know, infrastructure, they'll say the same thing. The The Democratic Party for all the. things that make people uh upset, want.

to tear their hair out, disappointed, disillusioned, whatever it may be, it's. also the only vehicle that we've got. that is everywhere in every county in. America, you can find Democrats, where. people can get involved in organizing, especially for for power at the local. and state level that winds up writing. the rules for all the other levels. And. so, uh even though just about everyone has a. list a mile long of things that that. frustrate them and upset them about the. Democratic Party, it is still a place. that is worth time, attention, investment to be able to to create the. power to fight back and, you know, make.

this country actually deliver for. people. I talk in the in the book about in. Wisconsin, my state, our organizing. approach actually starts with people. having one-to-one conversations in. living rooms and coffee shops to find. neighborhood level teams that can take. responsibility for talking to people. right in their area, people they know. from real life, not just, you know, random doors that they're knocking on. And that kind of work, which takes years. to be able to bear fruit, it has this. enormous effect. Every research study. says the same thing as, you know, what.

if you, you know, talk to great. political figures, they'll tell you, is. that the voice that matters the most, it's not the person with the best. message, it's actually the person who is. most trusted by the voter. And if you. can build that trust over time, you can. move mountains. And that that is work. that no matter what happens, what. headlines people read, as painful as. those headlines are to read, that is work that all of us can do. We. can build the party that all of us want. to be part of block by block, friend to. friend. >> It It's a great point, and I even say so. often that like I may have the ability.

to reach millions of people online. I am. nowhere near as potent as somebody who. has a small circle of people who are. able to talk to their friends or family. or co-workers or neighbors. Those like. the the trust that you have within your. small circles of people is so much more. moving and and. and powerful than even somebody, you. know, with a big platform who can reach. a lot of people, but like that's. something that you can't replicate. And. so a lot of people who are watching, you. know, even right now, have the autonomy. to to be able to do this stuff in an.

even more effective way than. folks like you or me or the guys at. Crooked Media or or whatever it may be. >> A million percent. And part of that's. because there are there are 500,000. elected officials in this country. And, you know, they all have different kinds. of powers, but the the decision of where. the polling places are in your. neighborhood, they're probably made by. your city council, not by, you know, a. member of Congress somewhere. Everyone. has someone that when they when they get. their ballot, they're like, "Who am I. supposed to vote for in this election? Who are these people?" Who do you text? If you're the person who's getting those. text messages, then you are like.

changing people's votes in a way that, you know, the political consultants can. only dream of. It is a just like doing a. little extra work and, you know, texting. in group chat is a source of incredible. political power and these offices, you. know, think about it this way. The US. House majority that Mike Johnson holds. right now, that cut a trillion dollars. from healthcare to give tax cuts for the. ultra rich, that came about because of. 7,309 votes across three congressional. districts. Republicans uh were able to get three.

more congressional districts because of. a North Carolina State Supreme Court. race that came down to 401 votes that. led to the gerrymandering of that state. 401 votes. And there are so many more. than 401 people who are watching this. podcast right now uh or or listening to. it. If if the folks who are listening. right now, like check out where there's. a a key. like low-profile election and just text. a few friends, they can set in motion a. chain of dominoes that affects the. future of American democracy. And that. is that is a power that is in the hands.

of the people despite Donald Trump's. dreams of taking over the election. system. We still have the power to. change that. >> Ben, I'm going to channel the voice of. every single person watching and. listening right now who is yelling at. their phone or their computer screen and. ask, is there a world where if um. uh the current DNC chairmanship was. available, is that something that you. would pursue? >> I. Honored to be asked. I I ran, I made my. case. The the voters in that race made a. different decision. I've moved on.

personally. I spent the last year I got. to When I lost the election, came home. my kids were like, "You lost, thank. goodness." And. >> [laughter]. >> I was like, got to hug them. I've been, you know, walking them to school, putting them to bed. I read an interview. where Ken Martin said he'd been home. four times since the DNC chair election. So I I'm on a different path right now. But I will say that my reflection, and I. think Ken would agree with this, is that. the future of the party that we that we. all want depends on the decisions of. millions of people, of of thousands of. people in each state deciding that they.

want to build the kind of party. that they want to be a part of. The door. is wide open to join the Democratic. Party. People don't realize a lot of. people think you register to vote as a. Democrat, that makes you a member of the. Democratic Party. And some states you. don't even register with one party or. the other, but the the party itself, it's basically a club where anyone can. join. In Wisconsin, you can be 14 years. of age. It uh depends on the state. And. then you can actually like vote for who. leads the party. You can vote for who. serves on the Democratic National. Committee, who chooses the national. chair. All that stuff is totally up for.

grabs. And the the work of organizing. people to to build power within the. party can transform how politics work at. the local. local level, which winds up changing. everything nationwide. So, uh whatever it is that people are. feeling right now, channel that into. work to actually build power and create. change, and you will not only uh change. a lot, you'll feel great cuz it is fun. to win. And uh I think we could all do. with a little more winning these days. >> That's perfect place to leave off. The. book, again, is This Is the Plan: How to. End America's Meltdown and Save. Democracy. There's no better person to.

prescribe these solutions than you, Ben. Ben Wikler, thank you so much for taking. the time. I appreciate it. Where Let us. know Where can we find the book? >> Well, uh wherever books are sold, uh. online and offline, you can buy it. I. read the audiobook myself, so if uh if. you've been able to tolerate the dulcet. tones of my voice, you might enjoy the. audiobook version as well. Um this is. the plan.com. You can find my book tour. events. I'm I have three more stops in. this current leg. Who knows if there'll. be another book tour. You can buy the. book and uh you can uh sign up for my my. email and get involved. We're going to.

need a lot of people doing this work. Uh. and uh I think what people will find if. they if they throw themselves into this. kind of battle, the same thing I found. I fell in love with my wife when we were. putting up posters for a protest. You. will find people that are friends for. life that you work shoulder to shoulder. with, and then you'll celebrate when we. win and we change this country for the. better. >> Well, best of luck on the book tour, and. uh and Ben, again, thank you on behalf. of myself and everybody who's watching. and listening right now for all of the. work organizing that you've done over. the years and will continue to do in the. future. >> Thanks so much, Brian.

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