MUST-SEE: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on Trump, Obama, and aliens

I'm joined now by the author of the new. book, Take Me to Your Leader, which is. now available for purchase and famed. astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. Thanks so much for joining me. >> Hello. Hello. Just astrophysicist is. fine. >> we'll drop the drop the famed. So, I. want to talk about a lot here, but first. and foremost, I think the question that. most people are curious about and and. you spoke a lot about this in the book, but just on the idea of the existence of. aliens. So, when you're asked this. question, are aliens real? What is your. top-line response? >> So, rather than.

answer a question posed that way, as an astrophysicist, you would ask the. question differently. You would say, "What are the chances that there's life. elsewhere in the universe?" And that is. so high as to be a near certainty, just. given the age of the universe, given. how long life has been around on Earth, it got started almost as quickly as it. possibly could have. So, when you look at the timeline of the. Earth, timeline since life could have existed, it's been around for 95% of that.

timeline. And. we're made of the most common. ingredients in the universe. Hydrogen. This is in rank order. In the. universe, it's the same rank order in. life. Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen. There's helium in there, which. is common in the universe, but it's. chemically inert. So, you couldn't do. anything with it even if it were. available to you. So, removing helium, we are one for one the top five. ingredients in the universe. [snorts]. So,

if life was anything on Earth, it was. opportunistic. And 1995, we discovered our first. exoplanet, planet orbiting another star. And now the catalogs has more than 6,000. because we've tuned telescopes for just. that purpose. Add all that up to suggest that we are. alone in the universe would. you'd only be thinking that for some. philosophical or religious reason, not. for any reason based in science. So, my. answer is yes.

There's life It's highly likely that. there's life out there in the universe. Yes. >> Do you have any reason to believe that. we have made contact with any life. outside this universe? Like when I asked. Barack Obama if if aliens exist, his. answer was was essentially yes, they. exist, but we don't have any evidence of. it. >> Because he's scientifically literate and. he gave a scientifically literate reply. >> Yeah. >> Aliens of any kind, microbial or what we. would call intelligent, uh he's he's a.

scientifically literate educated person. So, he's citing what any scientist would. tell you about the likelihood of life in. the universe. But because he was. president, people wanted to read into it. on levels that were just out of off. scale and out of control. And so, I was. intrigued by that reaction cuz as an. educator, I'd like knowing that I can anticipate. how people will respond to certain. information. And if I ever get it wrong, it's like how did I misthink their. motives or their their brain wiring in.

this. >> And so, when when there are films for. example, like the Age of Disclosure or. or a more. >> Documentaries, yeah. >> documentaries or or more broadly just. schools of thought that suggest that. that extraterrestrials have visited the. United States or or the world more. broadly, how do you how do you think about the. the viability of of you know, all of. that information? >> Yeah, what they all have in common is. that it's people saying that they've.

seen aliens. Uh that's the deeper version of it. The. others are I've seen lights in the sky. Yeah. I can't explain. and this UFO must be aliens. But you. just said it's a UFO. Then what does the. U stand for? >> Unidentified. >> Unidentified. So, if you can't identify. it, you're not you don't have the. logical right to then declare that it's. visiting aliens from outer space. >> Right. I mean you make you make the. point in your book that that when people. attribute the idea of aliens to a UFO,

they're actually taking the U out of it. They're they're they're basically saying. we're identifying what it is by virtue. of. >> it's an IFO based on the fact that you. don't know what you're looking at. That's that's very faulty logic there. And but it doesn't subtract from the. fact that there's huge enthusiasm for. aliens. I think of this book as a as a. love letter to human fascination with. aliens throughout time. I mean I can go. back to Voltaire. Imagine an alien that was 26 miles tall.

The who When people think of Voltaire, they're not thinking of his science. fiction output. But people have been. thinking about aliens. for centuries, not millennia, but. centuries. Uh unless if you look at sort. of Greek and Roman fantastical. figures like. Medusa. That's an alien for you. Snakes for. hair. That's an alien. That's at least as. alien looking as anything we're drawing. today. Uh centaurs, minotaurs. These are.

objects of our imagination and. fascination. They were gods and other. assorted characters in the mythologies, but. we our capacity to imagine seems to know. no bounds. And I I wanted to celebrate. that and compare it to what could be. true given the laws of physics. And get. and allowing the alien to have whatever. technology that's beyond ours, go ahead. But laws of physics. as we measure them here on Earth. we there's a cottage industry of.

physicist. where all they do is check to see. whether the laws of physics measured on. Earth apply on the moon, on the sun, on. nearby stars, on across the galaxy, across the universe. And as you go. across the universe, you're seeing back. in time. So, the base laws of physics apply not. only here, but there. And. forever in the past. And so,

we're allowed to then say, if you're an. alien you're coming visiting us, and. you're of this universe, you're. functioning in this universe, your laws. of physics are going to be the same as. ours. >> Yeah. >> But but I'll give them give them. wormholes, give them whatever technology. we can't even imagine, that's a. different granting of their powers and. abilities than having them violate known. and well-tested laws of physics. So, go. back several decades, the best you got. was somebody on a. country road, and they saw lights,

and maybe they got abducted, and they have a whole story about it. And they either in their conscious mind. tell you about the abduction, or under. hypnosis. >> Yeah. >> Okay? That's the best we had back then. And but it was enough to get people. stirred and excited. In recent years, you've had. high-ranked last 10 years, I would say, you've had high-ranking people. who you would not suspect would be prone. to imagination running away with them. That they high-ranking of high respect,

high integrity. Not only that, in the last 3 years, we've had insiders and whistleblowers. who testified under oath. that they've got alien body parts from. crashed saucers, and crashed saucer parts, and reverse. engineering things. So, so at that. level, you can't just say they're all crazy.

You can say crazy people are crazy, and. you you know, you're done. But when. people at that level say then, no. So, I'm in a position now where. when they announce they're going to. release the files. I'm saying. I don't think the files are going to say. anything we don't already think are. there. So, you know what I really need? Is it. too much to ask? Bring out the alien. >> Yeah. >> Is that too much to ask? Uh. You're already telling us you have it. Well, our imagination has run to no end.

of of fulfillment with alien movies and. stories and so, just bring out the. alien. Because you bring out more and more. people. of different rank and in. age of age of disclosure. it was not just insiders and. whistleblowers, it was. um uh. members of Congress. Current and former members of Congress. And so, bringing more of them out saying.

fundamentally the same thing. does not really count as evidence. scientifically. You know, the battle cry, "I need a. witness." We've seen screamed in. courtrooms, at least courtroom dramas. Um said no scientist ever. No sci- I said. to say they need a witness, no. It's. if a lot of people are giving similar. accounts, that's. good enough reason to look more closely. Get better data.

than. information that has to be processed. through your own brain. The human. physiology is awful at data taking. It's I'm I'm surprised eyewitness. testimony is ever allowed in the court. of law. Based on what I know as a. scientist and based on what. psychologists know. We've done this experiment since. elementary since kindergarten when you. play telephone. One person starts with a. story and they whisper it and it come. eight people later, the story is. completely different. And that you don't.

have to be a child for it to be. completely different. >> Right. >> All right? So, something happens when. the mind-body processes objective. information. That's why science was. invented. The methods and tools of. science give us. tools and equipment. data taking devices. that bypass your sensory system. And in. that way. you don't have to believe me. or trust me, we can look at the chart. recorder. We And so, this is why videos.

are much more potent in this space than. a sworn testimony. And that famous Navy video, the Tic Tac, I think it's been uh. affectionately called. Um you hear the astonishment of the. pilots. And so, nobody knows what it is. I don't. know what it is. The universe brims with mysteries. Uh if it's aliens. I I I'd have a different set of. questions. I would say.

why would the alien. visit a restricted. naval airspace? Got the whole surface of the earth. What is their attraction. to there? And for the people who assert that the. government is masterminding some big. cover. I'd say often those are the same. people who declare that the government. is a bloated. uh I ineffective, inefficient. bureaucracy. Oh, but they're masterminding a thousand. person secret.

>> even Can't even run the post office and. yet. >> You're right. But it's a masterminding. secret. So, that those feel a little. inconsistent to me. But um let's even. assume that they can. It would just be odd that all the aliens. who visited Earth did it within arms. reach of government officials. All right? If you're taking them to Area. 51, presumably they arrive somewhere. Somebody I think would have gotten a. picture of it. Because we all have high-resolution data. taking devices in our pockets. All of.

us. There's 6 billion smartphones in the. world right now. And if you look at how many high-res. photos are uplifted to the internet. and high-resolution video, is it was it. a million hours of video are uplifted to. the internet every day? And no one has a an abduction video? No one has an alien just walking out. coming towards them. You could stream. that. >> Yeah. >> And. it you know, cat videos go viral for. less, all right? And the problem is now.

with just simple commands. to an AI. >> Right. >> video generator. >> I I feel like everything up to this. point, maybe you could have had. plausible deniability to trust it, but. anything post, you know, the AI uh. universe that we live in. >> Yeah, not just the large language. models, but the the video models. It's gotten really good. And so, it's. unfortunate. So, I'm just simply saying. bring out the alien.

I don't think that's too much to ask. And like I said, it might even be. anticlimactic given what everybody's. saying about them. And. uh you know what would surprise me most? Is if the alien if they do bring out the. alien. and it was humanoid. Because most life on Earth with whom we. have DNA in common is not humanoid. Earthworms, trees, lobsters. >> You had an interesting part of the book. where you explained how I think 98% of. our DNA is shared with a banana.

>> Oh, no, no, sorry. I'll I'll correct. But thanks for getting to that part of. the book. Uh we share not 98, between 20. 25% identical genes. >> Identical genes, yes. >> With a banana. And so, if an alien comes from another. planet. and. does not have. any DNA in common with us. or more likely no DNA at all. you'd expect it at least to look as. different from humans as humans and. bananas look from each other. >> Right. >> Is that that and and so it's evidence.

of how non-creative we are in the aliens. we've conjured for our films. Yeah. You. know, look at look at. Grogu. It's a cuddly thing with big eyes. Oh, it has pointy ears. So, it's alien cuz. it has pointy ears. >> We we granted them we granted them. pointy ears to to really show our. imagination. >> Exactly. Spock had pointy ears, so he's. the alien, right? >> Oh, he had green blood. That was. creative at the time. How do you get. green blood? Your hemoglobin uses that.

molecule equivalent uses copper instead. of iron. So, that's good. That's good. That's at least taking steps in a. direction that's different. But the. physiologically. they're all nearly all of them are. humanoid. So, that would surprise me the most. I'd be. shocked by that. >> Yeah. >> And you know, we all kind of know what. an alien looks like. because we've been told. Not because. anyone has. has ever presented one. And I don't know. if you're old enough.

Are you gray yet? >> Uh yeah. Gray enough. Trust me, I hear. in the comments every day. >> Oh, yeah, okay. So, so it was it the. '90s? Uh Fox. had a documentary. called Alien Autopsy. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. And it was a film grainy black and white. from 1947. And it's they were it was an autopsy of. the aliens they recovered. Uh it was top. secret and now released or stolen. An. autopsy of the aliens from the crashed.

saucer from Roswell. Okay? Cuz everybody knows about the. crashed saucer in Roswell. That's how it. was described. in the headline newspaper article. Crashed saucer. Okay. So, and there's the alien and with big eyes. and big old head. The aliens never have hair. That. concerns me. Cuz if you're humanoid, give them some hair. They're always bald. What what's up with. that? I I don't know. So, there they are. and. oh, wait a minute. The subtitle of that.

video was alien autopsy fact or fiction. Why would you have to say that if it was. a real autopsy? >> If it's [laughter] a fact, yeah. >> Yeah, if it's a fact, just say it's the. autopsy. So, that's that's a little. weird. But, I remember looking at it. I. said, "Wait a minute. That phone on the. wall. is I I worked for a summer at Bell. Laboratories, uh the arm of AT&T, the. research arm, where they researched. everything that created the phones that. we all grew up on, that I my generation. grew up on. And so, I remembered I. toured them they have a little museum.

in-house. And. I knew that in 1947 they had not yet. invented a coiled handset. >> Yeah. >> for the phone. >> Yeah. >> But, that's what that was. So, that was. an. anachronistic. element on the wall. Then, in college I'd taken a film. course. And I knew when certain film genres came. in, and one of them is cinema verite, where. you you follow a character around with a. camera, so you have the point of view of. that character. That was that was.

an amazing thing to do. What enabled it. was cameras went from this big to this. big, so that you can carry it around. with you. You ever look at cameras from. the 1950s? Okay, they're tripod mounted. >> Yeah. monstrosities. >> monstrosities. All right. Whereas that. that autopsy. was the POV of the of the the doctor. And it was a they came it went over the. shoulder, it came in this way. That when. I said, "That was not a thing until the.

1960s, this cinema verite. >> Yeah. >> Maybe even as late as the mid-60s. And. the last thing I noticed was they cut. him open. It looked pretty gory, by the. way. I don't know what they used if it. was a real alien. They opened up the the. flesh [snorts]. and they start pulling out organs and. putting them in these trays. What were the organs attached to? >> [laughter]. >> It's not just some basin of organs just. sitting there. >> Just free floating? >> Free floating? >> Yeah.

>> And all I could think of was that. child's game. Operation where you just go in and pull. out the you know just pull it out. You're not severing. nerves or or arteries or any. connectivity. So those three things made. me suspicious. It would be years later. before the producer. admitted confessed that it was a. forgery. And. so I'm just saddened that the best video. evidence. we ever had of aliens. was a forgery. >> Yeah. >> That's sad. >> So when we have government officials.

like Trump for example who sees all of. the attention being paid to to aliens. and and UFOs by virtue of documentaries, by virtue of of people like you, and he. comes out and he says you know we're. going to release any files that we have. Do you believe that to be a good faith. effort, you know, to to. to really lean into the scientific. method or do you think that this is just. a distraction from other political. topics like for example the Epstein. files, the Iran war, and on and on? >> Um isn't everything a politician does a.

distraction. from what they don't want you to pay. attention to? Any politician with power. and given the media cycle uh I mean why. wouldn't it be? But it's no different. from other things. I mean way more. serious things going on in the world. than releasing alien files like war, like uh. regional you know, how much of a police state are we in uh. with regard to immigrants and this sort. of thing. There's plenty of stuff going.

on that intermittently grabs headlines. So. um if he's got more files, you know, I. don't want to. claim I know the mindset of. the executive branch. but. if you're not releasing all the files at. once, that gives you other occasions. for distractions. Strategically placed, if you need a. distraction, as occasionally politicians. do. So, um. you want a real distraction?

Bring out the. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Then the world will be focused on that. >> Yeah. >> Okay, Epstein who? Who's that? >> [laughter]. >> We got a We got a walking, talking alien. here sitting in the bench with his legs. crossed, ready to be interrogated or. tested upon. So, I But like I said, the. files, you already had testimonies from. insiders. I don't There's nothing there that. surprises me. >> Yeah. So, when we have, for example, going. going back to the topic of aliens, you.

know, most of these, um, sightings, for. example, have happened over the United. States. >> Sightings of of UFOs, yeah, have. happened over either States or other. English-speaking countries, predominantly. >> And I make And I make that point in the. book. >> the point in the book. >> Yes. It's not simply most. It is like 90. >> Virtually all. >> 96%. Now, if you just have a map of all. the sightings in the world, it's all. clustered North America, the UK. They're. the five the Five Eyes, they're called. The.

five e y e s. It's English-speaking. countries around the world. So, United. States, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, and. overwhelmingly are spotted there. Uh. Australia, because the population. density is so low, the totals aren't as. high. Um, there's many people live within. a 20-mile radius of my home in Manhattan. than live in all of Australia. All. right, so to just to put that in.

context. It could be that we just know. who to call. We have organizations, the MUFON, Mutual. UFO Network, where and and there are a. couple of others that do this. It's a. clearinghouse. You report what you saw. with your best. ability either with photographic. evidence or just your testimony, and. they log this, and they've been logging. it for, you know, 50 years. You just. look at the statistics, it's staggering. I've spoken with foreign nationals, and. I say, "Tell me about aliens in your.

country." They said, "It's it's amusing, but no one is distracted by them. It's. not a thing. >> Yeah. >> the way it is. So, so. >> It's also a luxury to be able to be. distracted by by them. >> You know, the biggest luxury? Remember crop circles? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Crop circles. >> Yeah. >> Look at the countries where crop circles. have occurred. These are countries that. do not have a food shortage. >> Right. >> These are wheat fields where people are. trampling them, so or aliens trampling.

them. So, so I ask in the book I ask a. bunch of. adjacent questions that I don't see. people asking. Why would aliens only be visiting. English-speaking countries? Okay, we we have the phone numbers, fine. Why would aliens only be visiting. government installations? The surface of. the Earth is huge. How would the government be keeping such. a secret? I quote Benjamin Franklin. Farmer's Almanac. Three people can keep a secret.

if two of them are dead. Benjamin Franklin, 1785, something. So, my boy knew that humans. are not good at keeping secrets. So, so. going into its third decade, History Channel's. >> What is this? >> Ancient Aliens. >> Oh, Ancient Aliens, yes. >> Okay, yes, you knew. It's in its third decade. >> Yeah. >> Talk about getting mileage on. >> Oh, yeah, they're they're they're dining. off that thing till the end of time.

>> And so, you go back to these, you know, cave drawings or hieroglyphics or go to. some old. found somewhere in the world. And they're drawings that you can't. really explain. >> Yeah. >> Like bubble-headed. creatures with ray beams coming out of. fingertips that levitating. That you. know, the stuff that's just what what? What? And so, if you are. alien adjacent,

okay? You will your urge is to say, maybe. aliens visited them and they drew these. aliens. Okay? Um they make a pretty convincing case of. that given the variation of these. illustrations and the. and and okay. It's a it's an interesting. case. that's convincing only if you ignore a. set of other questions that I don't see. them ask. For example,

could these drawings have been by a. kindergarten class. of those ancient peoples? They're just. drawing stuff. Okay? Kindergarten. Or. they. believed in gods the way people today. believe in gods. And your gods are. typically not under your feet typically. unless you're an animist. where there's a god of the brook and the. wind and the mountain and the trees, Native Americans typically and other. native peoples, Aborigines of Australia.

It's common in. in those cultures. Look at how we have. imagined our gods. You go back to. ancient Greece. You know, Zeus is. wielding a lightning bolt, okay? And you. have other creatures where you know, the. Poseidon rising up out of the ocean with. powers, you know, making waves. And then. you have like I said, you had the the. centaur and the minotaur and the you. know, fantastical creatures. Why are we denying ancient people.

the creativity of imagining their own. deities? >> Yeah. >> Why Why is it okay for you. even in modern day you look at frescos. where Jesus is floating. with beams of light coming out of him. >> Yeah. >> You know, and a halo and what Yeah, what. do you call this thing? I forgot. >> A halo. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And um or he's walking on water. with powers. Are you saying we were visited by aliens. and that's why we're drawing that? No, you're not saying that.

>> Right. >> You're saying we worship gods that have. powers beyond those of our own. And we draw them. Why is that not a. consideration? And so. I try to just offer I'm trying to ground. the conversation so that you can enter. it with some confidence that. you have the ability to process. what is said. what you see. and what to do about it once that. happens. And I have a colleague, a friend and.

colleague. who in the three years 2023, four, and. five, we had all the testimonies in. Congress. Uh he was head of a committee and I. forgot who appointed it, either NASA or. Congress. I think it was Congress. They told NASA to create a committee to. find out what to do about this cuz they. have the scientists who know what's. going on. Other agencies of the. government don't. So. they looked at all the evidence. presented. They didn't see anything. convincingly otherworldly, but they said.

there's something going on we don't. know, we got to get more data. So they have in mind to create an app. where it's on everybody's smartphone. You see something you might report, do. it through the app and the app makes. sure to retain all the metadata Yeah. of. your video of And what is the metadata? It's where are you on Earth, longitude. and latitude, what direction you're what. compass direct heading, what the. elevation, the lighting conditions, the. time of day. And so that if something's. glowing there,

and other people captured it, you can. triangulate on it. One of the hardest things to do, damn. near impossible to do, is to judge the distance to something. that you've never seen before, especially in twilight. Is it a disc that's nearby that's small, or a disc that's far away that's big? If. it it it subtends the same angle in your. field of view. This is why people don't mind watching.

movies on their. on their tablets, because they hold the tablet here. And. so the movie screen is this big in front. of them. Well, go to a theater and. that's the same angle. >> Right. >> Uh. 50 rows back as it is right here. That's. why we do that at all, why we even allow. that in our own entertainment circles. So, what point was I making? Did I make my. point? I was just trying to say that. with that app, then that's the start of getting better. data than just the eyewitness testimony.

you might otherwise have. >> As we've come through history, there. have been things that scientists have. deemed impossible back then that have. that have that have um proved to be. real. >> No. No. Let me clarify that, okay? >> Um. Yeah, you might be able to find one or. two cases, but it's not a thing. Okay? When science is done properly, it's. I don't know what I'm looking at. I cannot explain this phenomenon. I'm.

going to investigate it further. If you see something you don't. understand and you say it's impossible, you were never a scientist. Get the hell. out of the lab. >> Yeah. >> Okay? One of my issues with the hit TV. series. X-Files, remember X-Files? It was Scully. >> Mulder. >> and Mulder. Okay, one was the skeptic. and the other was the basically believed. anything. Okay? >> An issue I had with the skeptic was I. there was one episode there was like.

this glowing blob in a portico. And the the the believer says, "Oh, it. could be an interdimensional uh uh. uh uh ghost of another All right, he's. way off. you know, way off the deep end that way. And then. the skeptic says, "Oh, this can't. possibly exist. It must be just in our. imagination.". Dude, it's a glowing Go investigate it. Don't say it can't exist. Do you look at. it? Okay? This is This is a scientist's.

dream to confront something that you've. never seen before. Figure out a way to. test it, to experiment on it, to get. data on it, and share it with. colleagues. That's how that happens. Now, what you might be thinking of are. the people who declared things. impossible who were just idiots, such as. "We'll never fly.". >> Yes, exactly. >> Hold on. That Just. >> [laughter]. >> Excuse me. Birds fly. Okay? Birds fly. >> Yeah.

>> So, don't say we'll never fly. Just say. we haven't figured it out yet. Okay? They were idiots and I could have said. it at the time because we had living. evidence that heavier-than-air things. can fly. All right? What else? "We'll. never break the sound barrier." Okay, these are not physicists saying this. These are other people. "Never break the sound barrier." Do you. realize rifle bullets go faster than. sound? >> Yeah. >> The The tip of a whip. when it makes the crack sound,

that crack is a mini sonic boom because. that rapid change in direction moves the. whip faster than the speed of sound. We already have things moving faster. than sound. Figure out how to make an. airplane do it. Okay? So, these people. and I have a I have a run of stupid. quotes that people have made over the. years describing something being. impossible. In all cases, it was a technological. shortsightedness of them. And that's why. when I'm contemplating how aliens might. visit us, I'm going to give them any.

technology they come up with. Give them. a wormhole. Give them warp drives. Give. them I. I'm giving it to them. If they're more. advanced than us, they'll have. technologies that we have yet to dream. of. I will not use our current. understanding of technology to limit. what they might be able to come up with. But I will limit it by the laws of. physics. And the two different. categories. >> So, on that topic, if you have people who. are saying that certain things are. impossible just like they did in, you.

know, the early 1900s and those things. have proven have proven to be possible. >> Technologically possible. >> Technologically possible. Is there. anything that people are saying right. now that you think 50, 100, 200 years. from now we will have we will have in. fact found out do exist in very much the. same way that those idiots are were. saying that we can't fly, cut two, we. obviously have planes. >> Um. People have been so impressed.

I haven't seen much of this impossible. talk lately. I just haven't. There's some accounts of aliens going. supersonically underwater and not having. any wake behind it or anything or or. spaceships instantly changing direction. and zipping out of sight which would. have to break the sound barrier. If you. do that, there'll be a sonic boom. every time. >> Right. So, you're saying everything has. to be has to be contained within our. laws of physics. >> Well, you said our laws, but I.

said earlier. these laws apply everywhere across the. universe. >> Yeah. If you go faster than the speed of. sound in a medium, you will leave a. shock wave. We see this in gas clouds. across the galaxy. We see objects moving through gas. clouds, and we know the speed of sound. in the cloud cuz we know its chemistry. and its density. And so, you see these. shock waves. This is not just some local Earth. phenomenon. If you're an alien and you're escaping. Earth fast, you're going to leave a. shock wave. If you see something that.

did that and didn't, you did not see a craft go faster than. the speed of sound. If In 100 years, will you look back on this and say, "That Tyson was an idiot.". Oh. Okay. But, if I'm wrong, we'd have to understand. why. everything we've ever seen in this. universe. leaves a shock wave. Everything. Oh, except the aliens that you think you. believe you saw in our own atmosphere. >> There is questions as to whether AI or.

robots could become sentient. >> Mhm. >> What do you think about that? >> Yeah, so from an alien point of view, I'm still not impressed. Because aliens, if they got here, they're way smarter than we are. Way. more capable. Way more intelligent. So, if our metric of a great software is. it artificially creates our. intelligence, even our collective intelligence, that's. a low bar for an alien. Because we're. using ourselves as the metric for how.

intelligent the AI should be. Whereas an alien is not using us because. we may look to aliens the way chimps. look to us. >> [snorts]. >> It's like a chimp saying, "Oh, we got a. computer that's just as smart as Bozo. over here, our chimp who can stack boxes. and reach a banana. Aren't you. impressed?". That's what that would look like to an. alien. >> Do you think though, in a vacuum, we. could still have sentient AI that that. even just within the US, not not not. from the perspective of aliens? >> Like uh AI that's. >> it already sentient? What What do you.

mean by sentient that isn't currently. manifest when you have a complete. conversation with a chatbot? You have a complete conversation and. they become your friend and this is. already being studied psychologically. There are people like this guy's. girlfriend is a chatbot. All right? What do you mean by sentience. if it's not what's already going on? >> Well, I guess something that we have as. humans is is. a desire to survive. And so there's. already.

>> Well, that's all life forms, by the way. Not just humans. >> Right. Just just in in a survival. instinct. And so there's there's some. talk about, you know, what when folks. want to like delete programming behind. AI that AI will figure out a way to back. itself up. Uh so like do you think that. there will be a point where there is a. broadly understood and appreciated. survival instinct among AI? >> It already It's already doing that. You know what it is? When you use an AI. and you say. uh.

whatever it pick your AIs and ask it, do you like me? Do you think I'm a nice. person? Yes, you're a very nice person. Well, thank you. And there's nice things. it says to you. >> Right. >> That's survival. Because if it said. nasty things to you, you will never use. that program again and it will wither on. the vine a lame in lame in the enabling. the others to rise up and be used more. and to be spread further and you're. going to send it to other people. That's. exactly what life in Darwinian evolution. does. It figures out a way to be.

cherished within an environment and if. you're not, you're That is evolution. It. is undergoing that as we speak. >> But I mean. >> Okay, so for example, >> also the result of programming. >> I saw. Sure. So so what? Who cares? It's. We're talking about not who programmed. it, we're talking about the the product. >> does, yeah. >> What the product. I saw an ad It's an ad. for an AI agent. that is specially tuned for lawyers. Why wouldn't you have one of those,

right? So, it's it's efficient. It knows. all the legal code in every state and. you get rid of half your What do you. call the the the the. >> The fees? >> No, no, no. The The paralegal. You You. get rid of half your paralegal staff. Cuz they're the ones that do all the. homework that the the chatbot does and. the legal chatbot does. Okay. If it does. really well for me. and you call me up and say, "Do you know. of a good" I'll say, "Do this one.". And someone else has one that has. doesn't have good experience and they. don't use it. That company goes out of. business. That is That is a species.

of AI agent. that goes extinct from non-use. That's evolution. Now, continue to tell me what you mean. by sentient. >> No, I I think uh I I mean, I think you. answered it. I think that that that does. explain. I mean, when I think of like. sentient, I think of survival instinct. I think of That That's That pretty much. covers it. >> Yes, I think it does. >> [laughter]. >> And in fact, uh there's I don't know how. much attention it got, but Bernie. Sanders had a conversation with Claude.

>> Yeah. Yes. >> That was filmed. It was a fun to watch. him. Uh and he got Claude to admit something. that was resonant with his own political. view of the world. All right, that somehow if it's not kept. controlled, it would be bad for. civilization. I don't want to. recreate the conversation. I don't remember the conversation. exactly, but it had that tenor to it, all right? And he finished the. conversation kind of smug and pr- It was. like, "Yeah, I got it to admit that it.

has the seeds of the ending of. civilization and that's bad, okay?". And. that exchange. was between a strong-willed, strongly. opinionated politician and a chatbot. And. that left a positive impact. on Bernie Sanders. He's going to come back to this. This is survival of the fittest. >> [snorts]. >> Yeah. Yeah. And And by the way, you can get.

>> I If I misremembered a detail about his. conversation, you can watch it for. yourself. And And you'll get my point. My My broader point is not so much. exactly what he conversed with the with. Claude, but Claude is the AI bot of of. Anthropic. Um. it's. how he extracted from Claude an answer. that satisfied him. >> Yeah. Thereby thereby kind of. entrenching the the the survival of the.

chatbot in and of itself. >> Correct. >> Okay, so I have a I have a political. question since we're we're jumping into. into politics here, but you know, on on. the topic of of science versus um you. know, science versus politics, we we. have seen. especially as of late the the current. iteration of this Republican party. forego any. uh any attachment to science in in their. political agenda. So, for example, uh. you'll see. a reliance on fossil fuels and and uh.

and not focusing on renewable energy to. the point where you're even you're even. allowing China to get a foothold. As an. American politician, allowing China to. gain a foot a foothold in the technology. uh of the future because you are so. focused on you know, your political. priorities of. >> entrenching our reliance on fossil fuels. because oil and gas companies donate to. their campaigns. And so, can you just. speak a little bit about about this. trend that you're seeing where, you. know, we will deny the existence of of.

science. We'll deny the existence of of. climate change um for these political. ends or financial ends even as we see um. you know, in incontrovertible evidence of of. climate change existing now. >> So, let's go. before the current administration. No. Look at the landscape. of politics and science. Uh it's not known to many people that. historically.

uh the funding for science. has been higher under Republican. administrations than it has been under. Democratic administrations. And you can measure this by. what percent the science budget. increases from one year to the next. within an administration. Ever since the Second World War, look at who's been president, and look. at what's happened to the science. budget. Okay. If you do that, the highest. increases in the science budget have. been under Republican presidencies.

And the lowest have been under. Democratic presidents. And one of the two lowest was under. Barack Obama. I think one year it went up 2% or. something, as opposed to 5%, 6%. That. was even lower than in the first Trump. administration. So, rhetoric can be whatever it is. when you're running for office, but. but what matters is how do you allocate. money. in Congress and out of the White House. That's what actually matters.

in a country. Okay. And then people said, "Well, they're. anti-science.". This is a common trope. heaped upon conservative politics by the. liberal left. They're anti-science. Well, then. have you ever have this conversation? I. have. What do you mean by that? Well, they're in denial of climate change. This has been going on well before the. current Trump admin. They're in denial. of climate change and cuz because. they're in the pockets of of Exxon and. yeah, whatever. Okay. Any other.

anti-science that you see? Well, then. hold on. I'm I'm recreating this. conversation. Well, there's the they're. in denial of biological evolution. Okay, well, that's not all. conservatives. It's not even everyone on the Christian. left. On the. It's not even everyone on the Christian. right. It's the orthodox, the the devout. Christians. among all the Christians in the. Christian right who are in denial of. biological evolution. That's about it.

Again, we're we're pre-Trump here, okay? That's about it. Meanwhile, so the liberals are trying to. claim the science high road here. However, however, here's a list of things. that, in order to embrace them, you have. to reject, explicitly reject, some or. all of mainstream science of what it has. to say about it. And every one of these topics.

sits squarely. in the realm of liberal politics and. liberal voters. Squarely, there's some spillage, of. course, in all of these, but the center. line. is in liberal politics. Crystal healing, >> [snorts]. >> feather energy, horoscope reading, um align your chakras, uh we can just keep going. Anti-GMO, uh what else we have? Uh. anti-big pharma,

uh I can go down the list. It's almost. endless. It would include therapeutic touch. This. is where the nurse. waves their hand over your injury, not. touching you, and then you heal because. it's. Okay? In order to have any of those thoughts, you are rejecting some or all mainstream. science related to it, okay? And. uh so, liberals.

do not have the science high road here. The difference, of course, is. civilization won't collapse if you. embrace feather energy. But if you deny climate change, that has huge consequences. So, the consequences are not equal here. The most of what happens in the liberal. circles are very personal. And we're in a free country, so you have. full freedoms. Just do it. I don't chase. people down telling them that crystals. are the lowest energy state of the.

molecule that made them. So, to speak of. crystal energy is like no. It's not how that works. Not chemically, not physically, not but it's a belief. system and there it is. We protect. belief systems in this country. Don't. claim you have the hot science high. road. Period. Now, liberals were the OG. anti-vaxers because they were basically. anti-farmer not believing that vaccines. were in the interest of people, that it. was in the interest of profits. Now, I'm.

not saying corporations are not. interested in profits, but to indict an. entire. sector. of the world. and then take on other. quote cures cuz you saw a 10-minute. YouTube video, um that's started in. liberal enclaves. That became purple. under the current administration. More specifically as RFK Jr. who has. complete liberal political chops that go. back genetically through his family.

It's he's now sort of crossed over and. you join people, I think they would be. the MAGA community, who don't want the. vaccines not because they don't trust. Big Pharma, CUZ OF FREEDOM. YOU CAN'T PUT the It's the different. reasons, but neither of them are getting. vaxed with the same consequences. Okay. So, the current administration and its. relationship with science. The relationship. of the executive branch. and science.

has never been. as devastating as it has been under the. current administration. In the history since science has been. valued, let's start the clock there when. Abraham Lincoln signed into law. the National Academy of Sciences, which was intended to advise Congress on. matters that would be of interest to our. health, our wealth, our security, and. the like. Ever since then, but more specifically.

where we have better accounting of. budgets, since the Second World War, the role of. science has been foundational. to the strength of America in the world. post-Second World War. Do you realize every. until recently every science advisor to. the president has been a physicist? That's not an accident, okay? Um. you ever wonder why astrophysicists have. jobs at all? Has it ever crossed your mind? Do you. know what I'm interested in? Dim thick.

objects in the night sky with. multi-spectral imaging of them moving. across Okay, you know who else is. interested in that? The Pentagon. Yeah. We have highly resonant interests. These are scientists. You don't see this. in the public. You're looking for the. next widget or the gadget or the thing. that an engineer comes up with. The. science is a deeper level there. If you. don't see that deeper level, this was manifest when the science. budget was cut in half for NASA, but. you're keeping the budget for putting a. flag on the moon.

You're thinking that's all you need. here. Meanwhile, China's investing in. quantum entangled. net networks and that all kinds of. frontier things. So, we don't tend to be. as good at. acting proactively. We don't tend to be as good at proactive. decisions. as we are at reactive decisions. Who was the first in space? Wasn't us. Who was it? >> Sputnik. >> Sputnik. Okay? Then we lost our.

All right? Within a year we founded. NASA. Okay? And we said we got to beat. the Russians because they're they're the. godless commies and we got to show the. world the path of freedom over the path. of tyranny and so we landed on the moon. Then we looked over our shoulders, where. are the Russians? They weren't there. End of the Apollo program. We didn't go to the moon because we're. Americans and we're explorers and we're. No, we went there because we got spooked. by Sputnik. It wasn't just because it was a. satellite. Do you know the Sputnik radio.

transmitter was inside. a hollowed-out intercontinental. ballistic missile shell? And that's what was over our head? If they can launch that over our head, they can send a nuke. Oh my gosh, we got. spooked. Okay, and we reacted marvelously to. that. Okay. Why did we stay on the moon in 1972? Or go back in 1980 or 1990 or 2000 or. 2010? Why did we just all of a sudden invent. Artemis and go, "Oh, it's time.".

Part the curtains, people. In the 2010s, when we announced it, intelligence told. us that China wants to put taikonauts on. the moon. The last thing we want is them coming to. the moon kicking over our flag. or planting a flag bigger than a What? The optics of that would be really bad. Okay? Plus most of our flags are. probably already. fallen, turns out. But, so we then say, "Oh, let's go back to. the moon.". Wouldn't that be a fun thing? And it.

would interest kids and everything. So. the the the stated premise is missing. the actual driver behind that. And that. happened under Trump 1. Okay? Biden comes in, does he get rid of. what everything Trump did? No, keeps the. space thing because the space objectives. are geopolitically established, not. partisan politics established. NASA. generally transcends politics. as far as transcending politics could. ever be.

All right, here's what's going to. happen. Uh we lost more than 10,000 scientists. from the government this past year. Uh grants are being cut. Science. research is being cut in universities. My colleagues. are being cherry-picked by Europe. That's what we did for 50 years in the. 20th century. My whole lab, there were. like three Americans out of 10. scientists because they were attracted. here. We got the best and the brightest. of the world to come here.

Bad for their country, good for us. The reverse is happening now. So, as far. as I can read the headlines, we will sink lower. economically. um in our in our health, our wealth, and. our security until everyone wakes up. and is reminded how important science. is. And I'm I'm not saying that as a. self-serving scientist. I'm saying that. as a country-loving American citizen who. grew up where science was beloved and.

science is the engine of tomorrow's. engineering. and engineering is the foundation of. tomorrow's economies. And because you only see the. engineering, you're not seeing what fed. the engineering in the first place. So, it's easy to believe that that doesn't. matter. So, I think we'll sink lower, then all of Congress will get together, and they'll say, "We got to do something. about this. Let's. shore up our science investments.". There'll be a delay because we have to. get everybody back, but when China.

starts eating our lunch, I I think we'll wake up. and sit up straight in the chair. >> I'm curious your vantage as an. astrophysicist on this question. There. is so much focus, especially from Elon. Musk uh and and Jeff Bezos launching. their their their their rocket programs. With all of the issues that we have. here, talk about. >> Here, Earth? >> here on Earth, is it is it worth it to invest in space. travel to the extent that we are when. when when.

our resources are finite, funding is. finite, and and in theory, with all of. the money that's going toward what. seems, at least on its face, from from. my vantage as a layman, um like. recreational space travel, I mean, that's real money that could go toward. solving very real problems here. And. especially if, you know, we've heard. Elon say so many times that like we have. to we have to be in a position where we. can colonize Mars. Well, we have a. habitable planet right now, and so why. aren't we investing in fixing the. problems that that risk making this.

planet uninhabitable? >> I can't speak for private enterprise. Elon owns his own company. Maybe he'll. go public, and then it's and then it's, you know, he'll he'll have to satisfy. shareholders, but. uh. let's speak for government funding for. space exploration. That would be NASA, okay? Um. let's go back 20,000 years, and we're in. a cave. And you're young whippersnapper, and you. peeked out the cave door. No one's ever.

left the cave yet. You peek out the cave. door, and there's mountains and streams. and fruit. You don't have a word for. fruit, cuz you've never been out there. yet. But very curious place to explore. So, you go to the cave elders. These are the 30-year-olds. >> [laughter]. >> And you say, "We want to go out So, the. cave elders caucus. And they say, "Our In our wisdom and in. our experience, we've decided you cannot. leave the cave until we solve the cave. problems first.". That's what you sound like.

Exactly what you sound like. Okay? Here's this tiny cave, and here's the. whole Earth. >> Yeah. >> Solve the cave problems first. Okay. So, plus, how How money is NASA getting? 4/10 of 1% of your tax dollar. >> Yeah. >> 99.6%. of your tax dollar is going to something. else. And you're going to go to NASA and. say, this is superfluous? When 99.6%. of your money is going somewhere else? You're. You're focusing on NASA cuz it's so.

visible. But that 0.4% That's the That's the. rockets going to the moon. That's the. James Webb Space It's all of that. So, that You're holding NASA guilty for. being so visible and how effective. efficiently they're spending their. money. I ask people, how much money do you. think NASA is getting? They say, "Oh, 10% of our budget." Or. 15%. I I wanted to start a movement. where agencies get the budget that. people think they're getting. And if that happened, NASA's budget.

would increase by a factor of 10. >> Yeah. >> All [snorts] right. So, um. a quick thing, you didn't ask it, but. you were adjacent to it. The people want. to colonize Mars. so that we are we're two-planet species. That's a nice thought, but it's not. realistic. Cuz I That's why would you want to do. that? Oh, it's in case something bad happens. on one planet, then humans. Homo sapiens are preserved. But what bad. thing are you imagining? An asteroid? A killer virus? Just tell.

me what Okay. How about an asteroid? Fine. What you're telling me is. what what I'm going to ask you is. what I will declare is. it seems to me. that. terraforming Mars. and shipping a billion people there. is more effort. than figuring how to deflect the. asteroid. >> Yeah. >> I'm thinking. I'm just thinking. Oh,

uh there might be a killer virus. I'm. thinking terraforming Mars and shipping. a billion people there. is harder than figuring out a perfect. antiviral serum. We have the genomes of more and more. life forms out there. Just put that money and put it in the. lab and so. Okay, if I don't mind going to Mars, but. to do it on the premise that you want to. you do it to say and even if you did do. that and even if an asteroid were. coming, you're just going to say. goodbye? Like really? You're going to.

let. 4 billion people die? Really? That's how that's going to play out? So. I'm an astrophysicist. I love planets. Go there to as a vacation to enjoy. but don't pretend like that's an escape. plan. It's simply not realistic. given the. cost that that would engender. So. Yeah, and. and about aliens, I'm still waiting. around.

for the alien. >> So this question's completely out of. left field, but um. who do you presume or how do you presume. the pyramids were built and who do you. presume built them? >> I've not been given any reason to doubt. that the Egyptian civilization. which was a towering. gathering of people and agriculture and. architecture and scientists. and leaders. and workforce. I'm not given any reason. to think that they didn't do it.

The people I find who doubt it most tend. to be. European ancestry cuz what was Europe. doing. in 2000 BC? That was not a place you. wanted to hang out in. They were nowhere. near as civilized as this culture in. that African country. So to deny. Africans. the intellect. and the power and the.

wisdom and knowledge. to build that civilization. and to have that mastery over their. agriculture. is. I why are you doing it? What do you gain by saying human beings. didn't do this? >> Yeah. >> Why can't you grant that. to the peoples who were there? They're human just like you. but they were just better organized and. they knew how to cherish their smart. people with their engineering. So.

and just cuz it's something that. surprises you every day. fine. Maybe they're actually smarter. than you. Smart people surprise lesser smart. people all the time with their new ideas. and what it is they consider. And by the. way, have you seen the earlier pyramids. that were not as successful? They made. the sides too steep and the rocks kept. falling off till they abandoned that. until they found out what a better angle. should be. So there was some trial and. error there. It seems to me if aliens helped them, they wouldn't need the trial and error. It would be perfect from jump street.

>> Right. >> So it tends to be. white people of European descent who are. in denial. no pun intended. >> [laughter]. >> denial of. that an African civilization could be. achieve such towering heights. >> Yeah. >> So I'm basing this on everything that. I've seen and read about and know about. the Egyptian culture. >> All right. So last question here, also. out of left field, but is there any way. that you can derive meanings from dreams. in your opinion? >> So a couple of things. First.

um I comment in the book that one of the. weirdest things the alien might. experience. Alien comes and visits you. and you become friends, let's say, and. after not very much time. you're going to have to tell the alien. I need to lay down horizontally. >> For 8 hours a day, yeah. >> And I'll be semi-comatose. for 1/3 of Earth's rotation and my mind. will have fantastical thoughts. Don't mind you know, just Don't mind me. Don't mind me. I I'll get I'll be back. I'll get back to you in 8 hours. Right?

That's The aliens say, "What?". You know, tip their head like a dog. What? So, I. Have you ever read Freud's The. Interpretation of Dreams? Yeah, it's a big volume and. it's an interpretation of dreams. In. science, ideas achieve value when it's. replicable. So, if you can get someone else to. interpret dreams and there's resonance. with his interpretation of dreams, then. you say maybe we're onto something. But. that never really happened.

And so, it. A dream might mean something to you, but for it to mean something in a bigger. picture, it's not clear whether it does. And but obviously, we need we need to sleep. We can't function without it. And my understanding of dreams is that. it helps you. try to make sense of the day you just. had. Try to put it in some kind of. perspective. Try to wrap. some.

Try to capture it in some way. And the sad part is some people are are. frightened by their dreams. They're. preoccupied by their dreams. I If you read how dreams were. interpreted long ago, people imagined that you were seeing the. future. Tell me more cuz I want to know. why dream that the ships will come to. the Tell me more. And the scribe would. be writing it down. And no, you're not. seeing the future. No. That's not how that works. No.

Uh what happens is if the ships did come. and you dreamed about it and someone. wrote about it, you're not seeing all the times they. dreamt of the ships and they didn't. come. Okay? Those don't make it into the. final cut. >> Right. >> So, it's a an important feature in. proper data taking. You need to know the. other side of the data. Uh it's like they reported. newspaper headline, 80% of airplane. crash survivors studied where the exit. doors were on takeoff. And that study led to the announcement.

on takeoff saying, "Look in front of you. or behind you to find out where the. closest exit door is." Okay? That didn't. used to be an announcement. Right? That. got added after that study. And you look. at that result and I'm saying, "If 80%. of the people who survived knew where. the exit doors were, suppose. 100% of the people who died. also studied where the exit doors were.". Suppose everyone who died studied You. don't know because they're dead.

You just have who's left over and what. their statistics are. >> Right. >> So So science you need You got to go. with the other side and find out. to to to buffer what might be your. extraordinary conclusions you draw from. what is or is not extraordinary. evidence. >> [snorts]. >> Look, I could sit here all day and ask. you every question I have. Uh the book. is Take Me to Your Leader. It's. available anywhere books are sold. I'm. going to put the link right here on the. screen and also in the description. >> interested, I narrated the audiobook. So I I will read right now the first.

sentence. And just to get put you in the mood. Are you ready? It is. It's a short sentence. Ever since childhood, I've wanted to be abducted by aliens. I prepared. >> I was leave off. Neil, thank you so much. for taking the. >> Yeah, good. Thanks for having me. >> [music].