Justice Department issues GRAVE THREAT ahead of election

I'm joined now by national voting rights. correspondent at Mother Jones and the. author of the book Minority Rule, Ari. Burman. Ari, thanks for joining me. again. >> Hey Brian, great to talk to you again. Thank you. >> So Ari, you are one of the premier. reporters in the country when it comes. to voting rights. You do excellent work. as we see all of these threats continue. to bear down at the hands of Trump. Whether it's sending the FBI to an. election office in Fulton County to grab. all of the 2020 ballots, whether uh it's. Pam Bondi sending a letter to Minnesota. at the at the the the peak of the.

violence at the hands of ICE and saying. we can we can pull back, but it's going. to cost you your voting roles as all of. this is happening. What do you think is. the most pronounced threat that we're. contending with? And and and what do you. think the impact is going to be on 2026? I think all of these tactics by the. Trump administration have a common. theme, which is using the full force of. the federal government, whether it's the. FBI, DOJ, ICE, to try to interfere in. the 2026 election. And it's funny to me,

Brian, this is thought of as a. hypothetical. I keep seeing all these. stories, will Trump interfere in the. 2026 election? And I would argue he's. already interfering in the 2026. election. When you have ICE terrorizing. blue states and blue cities, when you. have the FBI raiding and getting 600 700. boxes of ballots in a key swing county, when you have the DOJ demanding people's. personal information to get masked.

agents out of a place. I mean, I think. this is already something that could. lead people to choose not to vote for. fear that they will be harassed at the. polls or their information will be. turned over to the federal government or. their secret ballot will no longer be. secret. And so, this is all part of a. concerted strategy by Trump to interfere. in the midterms. And that's how we. should think about it, not as one thing. here or one thing here, but as it all.

being connected. What what do you think. needs to be done on the state level or. the federal level? Although, you know, presumably there's not much that can be. done because Trump is in charge, but. what needs to be done to kind of erect. barriers to what to what's uh being. attempted by by Trump right now? Democrats in the places they have power, particularly at the state and local. level, need to do everything they can to. try to trump the system. So, we don't. see more things like the ballots being. taken out of Fulton County. We don't see.

more things like Trump issuing an. executive order to seize voting machines. and people being caught off guard. People need to think through the kind of. things Trump might do. And this is not. to be alarmist. It's not to be a doomer. But Trump takes things to the very edge. We saw him do it in 2020. And so people. need to be prepared, for example, for. him to invoke the Insurrection Act, to. claim a national emergency. to say that. voting is so crooked. We have to take. the machines and the ballots and and.

other things like that. He can't. unilaterally do it on his own. But I. think we need to be prepared for Trump. to push the system as far as it'll go if. he feels like he's losing power. And. every day it looks more likely like he. will lose power. At least his party will. lose power and that's going to make the. administration become more and more. extreme. >> Do you have concerns even as we head. toward midterms right now that uh that. we may not have a free and fair. election? I have concerns about how free and fair. it will be. I know a lot of people just. think that Trump's going to cancel the.

midterms alto together and I don't think. >> I don't have that fear. >> Yeah, >> I don't have that fear. The president. can't unilaterally do this. But the the. actions he's taking are very. intimidating to people. And when he does. things like take 700 boxes of ballots, to me that's as much forwardlooking as. it is backwards looking. They want these. ballots in Georgia. So they can say, "Finally, we found the evidence of. fraud." However flimsy that argument. will be. Therefore, that's a predicate.

for us being more aggressive in terms of. our actions. Whether, as I said, it's. trying to seize ballots in future. elections or take voting machines or. deploy ICE or the National Guard or. something else at the polls, things that. we haven't seen in any previous. elections. These are the kind of things. that Trump is now contemplating for. 2026. I have a theory with regard to. Tulsi Gabbard because obviously she was, you know, she um caught a lot of. attention because she was at the. execution of that FBI search warrant in. Fulton County, Georgia. And she.

shouldn't be there in theory. Well, nobody should be there in theory because. that shouldn't have happened. But she in. particular shouldn't have been there. because her job as director of national. intelligence is to make sure that there. wouldn't be foreign interference in the. election. And so I have a theory as to. why she might have been there. And and. we've seen Trump repost, you know, crazy. truth social conspiracy theories about. how the Italians and the Swiss and the. Chinese are all, you know, part of some. grand conspiracy with Joe Biden's CIA. and FBI to meddle in, you know, meddal. in our elections. And so we've seen that.

cuff that kind of stuff get get propped. up by by Trump's movement. Do you think. that that Tulsi Gabbard is there to try. and kind of legitimize some crazy. conspiracy theory like this so that he. then has um some justification to be. able to say, "Look, Tulsi Gabber just. told me that that you know, Hugo Chavez. and the Venezuelans and the Chinese and. the Italians and the Swiss all conspired. with Joe Biden to rig our elections and. so now we have no choice but to allow me. full oversight, full nationalized.

oversight of our elections so that I can. make sure that this this. miscarriage of justice doesn't happen. again and then you know obviously do. whatever he's trying to do which would. ultimately benefit him and his party in. the end. Do you think that there's some. legitimacy to that theory? Yes, I think. that's very plausible because as you. said the director of national. intelligence is prohibited by law from. taking part in domestic law enforcement. operations and her only portfolio with. regards to elections is stopping foreign. interference in elections. Now, we'll.

leave aside the fact that Trump. administration has completely gutted. protections against foreign or domestic. interference in elections. But after the. raid in Fulton County, there was a very. revealing Reyer story that said that. Gabbard's people had been in Puerto Rico. looking for evidence that Venezuela. interfered in Puerto Rican elections. Suddenly, they're interested in what. happens in Puerto Rico. I I guess uh but. the the point is is that that was a. >> that could that could have been a great. a great you know moment for the whole.

country to come together uh yesterday at. the Super Bowl you know when we have. like a finally the administration cares. sees Puerto Rico for something that's. important but. >> finally we see why why the. administration cares about Puerto Rico. They didn't find any evidence of course. of Venezuelan interference in the. election, but that was a tell that. Gabbard is preparing some kind of report. for Trump about interference in the 2020. election. I think it's very plausible. they're going to have concoct some wild. theory about Venezuela interfering in. the election. You've already seen people.

like Mike Flynn, Mike Lindell talk about. this. It's it's in far-right election. denial circles. They could lean on. Maduro himself to admit that he colluded. in the 2020 election as a result of a. plea deal. I mean, these things sound. crazy, but but once she's there act. trying to access the ballots, look at. the FBI raid, it raises a lot of. unsettling questions about where this is. all heading. And I absolutely think that. Trump is going to seize on any kind of.

accusations to try to interfere in the. midterms. And that that's why the the. presence of Gabbard and the raid in. Fulton County was so disturbing because. it's clearly a pre a predicate for more. extreme action by the administration. And the reality is he has these people. lined up. I mean we know Maria Karina. Machado, the opposition leader in. Venezuela is, you know, wrapped around. Trump's finger to the point where she. even gifted him her Nobel Peace Prize. Obviously, Maduro's regime, his his vice. president, who's currently in power, is.

only there expressly because she's. willing to participate in any way that. Trump wants her to participate. Whether. that means gifting uh American oil. companies uh oil or, you know, laundering whatever um you. know, conspiracy theory gives him some. justification uh to uh to to engage in. some election interference moving. forward. He's collected all of these. different people around the world who. need something from him, need something. from the United States, and so will be.

perfectly willing to do what Trump. already tried to do once, which is to. use Zalinski, for example, to to serve. as as a way to launder some dirt on Joe. Biden. Like, this isn't even theoretical. to your point. Like, we've seen we've. seen this happen. Trump got impeached. over this exact thing where he's where. he's perfectly willing to use foreign. leaders to give uh some information that. he can use to weaponize against his. political opponents and benefit himself. >> Yeah. I mean, I think what we know from. Trump is that he's 100% transactional. and he'll use whatever kind of leverage.

we have. And that's true on the the. foreign front and it's also true on the. domestic front. And what really makes me. nervous is that all the people that. might have stood up to Trump in 2020. have been replaced. I mean, there. there's you can't imagine anyone in the. White House today standing up to Trump. and saying, "Don't seize the voting. machines. Don't invoke the Insurrection. Act." All of the crazy things he wanted. to do. He was somehow talked off the. ledge, not by a bunch of moderates, but.

by people like Attorney General Bar, right, or Mark Millie or whoever it may. be. And Pam Bonnie is not going to stand. up to Trump. Tulsi Gabver's not going to. stand up to Trump. Pete Hgsth isn't. going to stand up to Trump. They were. put in there specifically because they. wouldn't stand up to Trump. And that's. why I think the possibility of Trump. interfering in the midterms in a more. dramatic way than he tried to do in 2020. is very much on the table. Um because.

there's no one to restrain him right. now. And he knows that sooner or later. he's going to have to leave. And so I I. the last thing he wants is to spend his. last two years in office being. investigated over and over by a. Democratic senator, a Democratic House. >> You know, Ari, we have heard Steve. Bannon, for example, come out and say, "Damn right, ICE is going to be at the. polls." And my concern with with these. these troop deployments across the. country is not just that, you know, that. they are dangerous and unconstitutional,

but also that Americans become. normalized to this idea of, you know, boots on the ground. And we know that if. Trump had boots on the ground in 2020, for example, when he wanted to seize the. voting machines and he had moderating. forces like Bill Bar, which is a crazy. thing to say, but you know, Bill Barr. wasn't going to um participate in in. this whole, you know, bogus uh uh. conspiracy theory about there being. fraud in the election. He himself called. it But, you know, Trump has. replaced Bill Bar with Pam Bondi and now. he has boots on the ground all over the.

country with these ICE agents who are a. low a lawless rogue police force that's. answerable to him and they act with. impunity. And so, do you have any uh. reaction here to what we've heard from. Steve Bannon in terms of, you know, using these ICE agents who again. answerable to Trump, don't feel like the. law applies to them, are illrained, illquipped to to deal with, you know, domestic any domestic disputes. um that. those people are going to be the ones. that Trump decides to deploy to the. polls. >> Yeah. And and my concern is that ICE. doesn't even need to be at the polls for.

it to have a suppressive effect. If ICE. is doing operations in blue states and. blue cities, basically making them. occupied territory in the run-up to the. election, that's going to scare some. people away from turning out. And so. having them at the polls would be a. dramatic escalation and one that I think. would be very questionable legally in. terms of their ability to be there. But. even just having them around now, but.

certainly in the run-up to the election. is something that's very concerning. And. I believe that that's something that. Democrats should add to their list of. demands in terms of agreeing to any kind. of DHS funding deal. They should say. make clear that ICE has no role with. regards to elections, but also we can't. have ICE operations in the run-up to. elections. There's things on the books, for example, like in the National Voter. Registration Act, you can't remove. people from the roles 90 days before the. election. They should have the same kind. of thing with ICE to say that we don't.

want any ICE activity in the run-up to. the election because we've already seen. how Trump's going to deploy this. He's. going to specifically deploy it uh in. Democratic areas and in swing districts. to try to suppress people from voting. And it's going to be really hard to. quantify how many people don't show up. because they don't want to deal with. that level of harassment. Last question here, Ari, what does. success look like for this midterm. cycle? And what does what does a lack of. success look like in this midterm cycle? What are you looking at to determine. whether whether we've had free and fair. elections?

I mean, success looks like people being. willing to come out and vote, a process. by which they can vote and a process by. which their votes count. Now, that's how. things have been throughout our history. But, I mean, there's a real question. about whether that's going to happen. this amount of time, and I think it's. very, very clear that there needs to be. an extremely high level of turnout and. mobilization to make those kind of. things happen. um that if it is a very.

tight election or it comes down to one. state or one district or something like. that, it's going to be a lot easier for. Trump to interfere than if it's an. overwhelming victory. The the way it. wouldn't look like a free and fair. election is people are afraid of turning. out in their in in the first place. There's all sorts of barriers put before. them to cast a ballot and then. ultimately once they cast a ballot, those results are challenged if. Democrats win. and either the result is.

somehow overturned or we see a replay of. 2020 where the results hold but an. extreme amount of stress is put on the. system and honestly I don't think the. American system given where we're at can. handle another 2020 right now. Where can. folks who are watching and listening see. and hear more from you? >> Uh they can read me uh at. motherjones.com. They can uh buy my. books uh minority rule and give us the. ballot wherever uh books are sold. and. um they can find me uh on Blue Sky at.

Ari Berman. >> Well, I would highly recommend all three. of those things. I do all three of those. things. I've been following Ari for the. entirety of my own uh career in digital. political media and I could not. recommend highly enough. Ari, you do. amazing work. Thanks for all the work. you're doing and I appreciate you taking. the time today. >> Thanks so much, Brian. Always great to. talk to you. Keep up the good work as. well.