Fox host drops NIGHTMARE NEWS for Trump & Paxton

I am joined now by the bravest woman on. television, co-host of The Five, and. author of the new book I Disagree: Winning Arguments Without Losing. Friends, Jessica Tarlov. Thank you so. much for joining me. I want to get to. the book, but uh I have to ask one. question first and foremost now that. we're in the midst of this Republican. midterm convention. We know that Donald Trump cares about. nothing as much as he cares about crowd. size and attendance numbers. We've seen. video footage of what the inside of that. arena looked like. It was sparsely.

populated, to put it generously. Can I. have your reaction to the fact that this. is a Republican president just a few. weeks before an election when folks are. obviously paying attention to politics. in Texas. So, I don't know that you can. get friendlier territory than that, and. yet he still couldn't fill up this. arena. >> Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's so fun to be here. Um and to be. back with you guys. It's like almost a. year uh since I was on when we did it. live at Crooked Con. So, we'll have to. do a live one again. Um but I really. appreciate being here and, you know, all.

that you do. >> Thanks. >> I. Yeah, it's not a great sign. that there were any open seats. Uh but. it does. hone in on the problem that they had and. why I think they decided to do it there, which is they have a Ken Paxton problem. And I know that there were a lot of. speeches that more fun to pay attention. to, like Tim Scott, for instance, who I. did not know that that's what Tim Scott. morphs into.

>> [laughter]. >> Uh. to depending on what he's been injected. with. But, Ken Paxton is terrible. Like, he's a. terrible human. But, he's also worse on. the stump than I thought. And I know. Trump had been previewing this for us. You know, how he loves now to tell us. how poorly dressed he is. And that he. is, you know, bad on TV. And all these. things that you know are actually the. things that matter to Donald Trump. And. then he throws in but he's like the best. AG in the country and then you think.

actually was impeached by his own party. so he's probably not the best AG in the. country but. that Ken Ken Paxton couldn't even be. in primetime. They knew enough. programming-wise that that was the case. and that he was that stale that stiff. and then the contrast between not only. the enormous grocery drive that James. Tallarico was doing at the at the same. moment. So you saw the Fabrizio poll. which you know is a big deal because. Tony Fabrizio works for Donald Trump and.

yeah I mean he's an excellent pollster. I'm not saying he's going to be faking. anything but he has Tallarico up for. So and he has the governor's race in a. margin of error. >> Yeah. >> So we're on the march here and I think. the contrast James and the grocery drive. the Fabrizio poll and then all of the. interviews. that Tallarico was giving including to. Fox where he addressed a lot of these. past comments that he's made that were.

being held over him like the woke as. sand kind of stuff you know six sexes. uh trans trans women in women's sports I. before he had already gone and dealt. with and they were unfairly splicing his. interview but about immigration right. where he says that our immigration. policy has to be like your front porch. There's a a welcome [clears throat] mat. but your door is locked right. which I think everybody understands that. that's a reasonable way to think about.

immigration. So there was a. thing there vis-a-vis Texas and none of. it was good for Republicans. >> When James Tallarico does an interview. with Fox on on this exact topic do you. think that helps his cause because he's. able to to offer up some nuance to an. audience that has otherwise only heard. attacks against him or do you think that. it just further amplifies the bad faith. attacks against him by giving him a. little airtime? You don't know how it's.

going to be edited, and of course it. gives other folks in the right-wing. media ecosystem an opportunity to bubble. back up to the surface the original. attacks that that he was answering for. anyway. >> [sighs]. >> So, I happen to live in a a world or a. mindset where I kind of think you can't. control what other people do, and the. more that you can be on the record with. your actual beliefs and how you see the. world and taking responsibility, like.

we're a forgiving people. We we want to. see people evolve and change and update. if that's what's necessary, and I think. it's good that he did that. He's also. running in Texas. You just can't get. away with certain things that maybe you. could say like, "Ah, whatever. It. doesn't really matter what I said in. 2020." Like, you're trying to win Texas, which has been a white whale for us for. a long time. So, yeah, are there going. to be new ads cut like, "James Tallarico. lies to you. This is him." And then when.

it's expedient, "This is him now.". >> Right. >> Sure. But, our ecosystem, the left-leaning algorithms are also. really powerful, you know, in shows like. yours and all of the other creators out. there who as far as I can tell, nobody. is disappointed that James Tallarico did. this. And they did think that it was. important that he had this conversation. with a Fox News reporter. >> Yeah. >> And that it's going to then play on all.

of our programming, too. We have this. massive audience, and there are people. like The Five, the show that I co-host, we're 20% Democrats, 30% independents, and then 50% Republican. And that's. everything from MAGA to Romney. Republicans. They're going to see that, too. And it does seep in. It becomes. part of your consciousness. And even if. people don't get to the point where they. agree with everything that you have to. say, they're still getting these bursts of.

information that run counter to the. narrative that they hear all the time. >> Well, that's a good segue into your. book. Again, the book is called I. Disagree. And I think what's what what. I'd like to know is. a lot of people right now, and I'm sure. this is a question that you've contended. with a million times, but. this isn't politics as usual. And the. party in power right now, this MAGA. Republican Party, is not just like, "Okay, we we disagree on on taxation and.

otherwise, you know, like they are. ripping families apart. They are uh um. enriching themselves to to an egregious. degree. They're they're engaged in. steeped in so much corruption. They're. ripping families apart. So, all of this. is happening. for the people who voted for or or. continue to support this Republican. Party, that's a value statement on those. people. And so, you have Democrats on. this side of the aisle who say, "You. know, I don't want somebody in my life.

who is going to vote to empower a. political party that doesn't care if my. brown. neighbors are are killed or not. Doesn't. care if Americans are killed or not in. in in defense of those brown community. members. Uh these you know, like. how What do you say to those people. who say like it's not it it's not worth. it for me to keep in my life a group of. people who would empower. a Republican Party that has so little.

that has so little that that shows so. little care for. the vast majority of Americans? >> Yeah, I So, I knew this coming in that. my subtitle, winning arguments without. losing friends, that I would hear from people, "I would like to lose those friends. Actually, I feel better now that those. people aren't in my life." It's a little. bit different with family members, and. we know that we have record numbers of. families that have fissures as a result. of the rise of Donald Trump and the way,

frankly, that politics is conducted in. our country generally. Now, you know, I definitely think he is an enormous. factor in this. Um but I I totally get that point of. view, and I've made I make the case in. the book, I make the case on air all the. time, both at. on Fox and my podcast with uh Scott, Raging Moderates, that. I think politics is about morality. I. think a budget is a moral document. You.

are telling the world what matters to. you. And if private jet deductions. matters to you more than funding for. SNAP or Head Start or people being able. to keep their Medicaid, that's a moral bankruptcy problem. >> Yeah. >> But. by extension, we're sharing this place, whether you like it or not. And my job. is a little bit different than most. people's jobs. You know, I'm not I don't. not coming here. I have fun a lot of the.

time, but I'm not here just for fun. It's work for me, and it is a type of. advocacy that I believe in and that I. think can have long-term impact because. I'm in a long-term relationship with my. co-hosts and also with the people who. watch The Five and who consume clips of. it because they're oftentimes different. demos, right? The people who make sure. that they're there to turn it on or DVR. it. versus those who get me, you know, see.

what I'm saying or likewise see Jesse. Watters, uh Greg Gutfeld, Dana, you. know, however through their ecosystem. So, what I would say to those people is. I I hear you and I agree with you in a. lot of ways. It doesn't change the fact. that I still think there is important. [clears throat] work to do. in combating bad information, in. repairing in some cases and building. relationships with people who see the. world differently, because. there are things that they can show you.

or explain to you that can help you in. the way that you're processing. information and what your political. beliefs are. Changing your mind? Not. necessarily, but I don't even think of. my job that way. And I write this and I. disagree. I think my job, and I'm. curious if you feel similarly, is to actually open people's minds to. the idea that there is an alternative. point of view worth considering, that. there are good actors.

who see things differently. And there is. information that they're using, that. they have access to and that you. probably have access to as well, to. build their arguments that makes you. think, "Okay." And. a lot of what I go into in the book is. about how you prepare these arguments, right? How you actually build the facts. and the data set to be able to go out. there and do that. And I have my.

background is in. academia and research. I worked as a. pollster. Um, so, telling a story based. in numbers is something that's. very core to who I am and and what I do. and seeing the world in averages versus. in anecdotes. Um, but. you can't build an argument that I think. resonates with people. unless you are willing. to olive branch to them a little bit. In.

even if it's just the way that you. approach it, if it feels too foreign or. impossible to you to. say I agree with, you know, this thing. that you said. I get that. Often that. feels like a capitulation. And I don't. particularly like doing that. It's most of the time it would be. inauthentic, right? Whereas I actually I. I think you're totally wrong-headed. about this thing. But that doesn't mean. that you can't indicate this shared. space, this shared humanity, and some. generosity with people. So it goes.

really far. >> 100% and and I think look, it is. anybody who doesn't have to share their. space, their lives, their family with. with Republicans I think is a is a. position of, you know, to a degree to. privilege. You know, there's something. to be said for for a lack of diversity. and and whatnot. But but it is a. position of privilege because a lot of. us I think don't have that privilege of. being able to just inoculate ourselves. from any views that we don't like. And.

so I think that what you're saying here, you know, it is is albeit not ideal, is is pragmatic. And and that's the. world that that I think most of us live. in, you and and myself included. >> book was all about pragmatism. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> we lit. we've essentially been coasting through. this almost in fantasy land. >> Yeah. >> Right? Where you can just say, you know, oppose him, oppose him, like get him. out, get him out, get him out. And then.

the reality is you're going to wake up. the day after the election. or inauguration really, when you. actually get the the keys to the castle. And what are you going to do about it? >> Right. >> Cuz they lived in reality. And then they. actually, because they had a plan, they. were able to shape the future of their. reality. >> Well, I I feel like what if you can be. successful in your efforts at persuasion. on on the five, which is certainly um, a. more hostile environment that I think. any normal American is going to find.

themselves in, then I think that that. you basically, if you can succeed there, you can succeed anywhere. And so, what. has been the most effective persuasion. technique that you've been able to. deploy that can kind of inform how. regular people, when they're not. contending with, you know, formerly. Judge Janine, but Jesse Waters and and. Dana and and, you know, Greg Gutfeld and. these people who do this for a living, but regular, you know, parents or family. members or friends, what what that can. inform some of how regular people can.

basically persuade the people in their. circles to come around to different. positions? >> Well, I have a couple of answers to. that, and one of them people are. probably not going to like as much, um, but it was important to me to put in the. book, um, because it's true, and I want. to be truthful, especially, uh, when you. have this opportunity to write a book. and to spend a few hundred pages telling. people what you think, um, without. interruption. And that is that.

tangling. with some of our own failings. and. accepting. some of our own mistakes, which. there are people, and I think more on. the progressive left than maybe the more. of the center of the party, are in a admit-nothing mode all the. time, right? That you're even not what. you asked me about the Talerico. interview, right? Like, so, what do you. think about the fact it's going to get. chopped up and then it's going to be. thrown back in your face.

If it's not James Talerico, it's going. to be another Hassan clip, it's. going to be another clip of Megan Roe or. Daryl Davis Chevalier. Like, the the. churn is going to carry on. >> Right. >> And all we can really control is how. clean we keep our side of the street. And so, I actually spent and have over. the years a lot of time. looking into. the things that the right would call. left-wing hoaxes.

And they're kind of. baseline. like we're not operating on the same. planet stuff. So, there's the the ones. that rise to election integrity, where I. just have no time for that, right? Like. you've been through 66 What is it? 66. court cases? >> court cases, yeah. >> Yes, Mark Elias, we love you. Um. and I don't have time for that. I don't. have time for Nancy Pelosi was the one. who like sent the National Guard home or.

like whatever convoluted stuff is going. on there. But. I can engage with what the Mueller. report said and didn't say and how it's. been manipulated. I can engage with. all of the media hits that went on in. the run-up to the Mueller report or. around releasing Donald Trump's tax. returns and, you know, the lies. surrounding the meeting at Trump Tower. that was about an orphanage or something. like that and get to a place where I can.

at least say. Donald Trump and his relationship with. Russia. was overhyped. I get it. That Bob Mueller, I I know. what the report said. I know that there. were connections. I know there were. people who went to jail. Um I also know the breathlessness with. which the left talked about this and the. overwhelming feeling to people that it. was like we were going to get him. And that is. a baseline thing in talking to.

the right that lives. in the front of their minds. Not just. like in the recesses, but in the front. of it. Charlottesville. Right? And. >> [clears throat]. >> what Donald Trump did or didn't say. about the very fine people, which is the. predicate of Joe Biden's campaign. I. mean, Joe Biden loved to run for. president. He was going to do it anyway. But, you know, actually listening to the. tape and understanding how muddled.

Donald Trump's language is, but engaging. with the way that they see the world so. that you can then show them that you've. done the work for that, right? And then. you can bring in. the reality. So, when they come and say. the SPLC basically invented the idea. that there are neo-Nazis in this. country. Like that the tiki torch guys. actually were just, you know, college. students wearing Dockers on their way to. the bar down the street or whatever it. is, makes your argument stronger because.

they know that you're trying to be a. good faith actor in this. And I think. that that is one of the biggest. underlying problems in our politics is. that we don't. trust. that the people that we're talking to or. disagreeing with. are going to be good faith about it. And. I know and maybe I'll see it in the. comments that people will say like. they don't deserve that. Right? Like I I. don't want to give an inch on any of. this. But, I don't think that you would.

look at the way that I present my. arguments and the way that I. work with my co-hosts and communicate. with the audience. and think that I gave them anything. I just met them at a place where I think. we can both exist. And then you don't. miss each other in the same way. Does. that make sense? >> A a 100% but but my pushback to that is. we are we're we are watching. the way that this mega Republican party.

operates and. on down from Donald Trump there seems to. be this mentality of admit no fault. ever. Like that is that is the ethos of. of Trump's movement. And so, I guess the. the disconnect is when you say and and I. agree with this that you have to be. willing to operate in good faith so that. you can be in a position where. somebody's even opening to hear open to. hearing what you have to say to your. persuasion, isn't doesn't that butt up against the.

fact that the other side right now isn't. willing to do exactly that? Like I I. there there are going to be people who. say let's you know that it's that's. reminiscent of Michelle Obama's when. when when they go low, we go high. Do. you And so, what would your reaction to. that be? >> Well, I think that we've updated from. that generally speaking. Everybody. understands that this is war. It is. nonviolent war, but this is war.

>> Yeah. >> And my counter to that would be if you. actually want to be on the battlefield, you need to be able to get in the arena. >> Yeah. >> And you're not going to have entrance. into the arena unless you are willing. to behave a certain way. >> Right. To to to engage in to engage in. some modicum of good faith so that. they're even willing to hear you. >> Right. And. people sense it. You know what I like. they're seeing these conversations.

and even if they don't agree with your. politics and I hear this from Fox. viewers out in the wild all the time. It's one of the main reasons that I. wrote this book is that I have a flood. of people of all political persuasions. saying to me, "How do you do it? >> [snorts]. >> Right, how do you do this? How do you. show up day after day and know that. you're going to get interrupted and. pushed around and you're still going to. sit there. and you're going to make sure that you. make your points and also find a way.

to have connective tissue with these. people who see the world so differently. And we don't lose You know this. This is. why you built chorus. We don't lose the 2024 election. if we engage. >> [snorts]. >> We chose not to. I mean, we also had. some other prob- We had some policy. problems and some outcome problems, but. we certainly had a presence problem. >> Yeah. >> And that's what I'm talking about. I.

mean, it is the It's the content of what. you should say, and my alternate title. was Surviving Thanksgiving. >> Yeah. >> My appendix is 10 tips for your table. So, if you want the quick and dirty, like, how do you talk about ICE? I got. you. Abortion, you know, constitutional. crisis, all the things. But, there's. it's really a guide for. how to not only build the content of. what you want to say, but how to make that safe for people to.

hear. Because hearing information that runs. against your long-held beliefs. literally throws up your threat reflex. People feel pain from this. And that's something that I think I'm. comfortable, you know, going high when. they go low about. To understand that. somebody who's grown up in a Republican. tradition or somebody who even is a new. MAGA voter, they are operating with a different set.

of facts. And so, any way that I can. find a place to weave in and to set up. camp in the recesses of their brain. where they say, >> [snorts]. >> "Oh, there's that, you know, that. Democratic lady with all the facts, who's also nice and is part of this. cohort." I'm going to take it. >> Last question here, and and this kind. of, you know, look, I I think it's not. lost on anybody how smart and how. strategic um and charming you are and. have to be to do the work that you do.

And for that, I think everybody watching. is obviously very grateful. But just on. on a personal level for you, like. question's going to sound reductive, but. like, how are you? Because you operate. in an ecosystem that is so hostile. I. mean, even in the rare instances, you. know, one or two times a week where I go. on CNN and debate somebody, or I go on. NewsNation and debate Katie Pavlich, you. know, it is I I I have to use a. different part of my brain, and and it.

impacts my body in a certain way. Like. you said, I mean, you're you're putting. up. a defense mechanism that you're not. doing when you're talking to a much. friendlier audience, and my audience is. friendly to me. But but you're talking. to not only an audience that is largely. hostile to your worldview, but you're. literally physically surrounded by. people who are hostile to your. worldview. Like I couldn't imagine what. it would feel like physically to walk. through the halls of of Fox. And so,

just how how how do you do that part of. it, and how are you doing just generally. health-wise, you know, having put. yourself in the lion's den in the way. that you have? >> I mean, like all good elder millennials. with two little kids, like I'm a broken. woman. >> [laughter]. >> Nothing some Lexapro can't fix. >> I mean, for real, right? I. I started taking I mean, it's a natural. sleep aid that you can take when you're. pregnant, Unisom. Like.

yeah, I need that, and I'm still up from. like 3:00 to 5:00, re-running stuff in. my mind. I mean, you do this even if. you're having a friendly conversation, because. the quality of it matters. You know, sometimes you feel like, oh no, I'm just. sitting here behind a computer, like. telling everyone what I think or. whatever. This is all getting pumped out. into the world, and has potential to. impact real decisions, and sway people. and and all that. So. >> you for the rest of your life.

>> Right. And be part of this these are. communities. And it's. very cool and a privilege to be part of. them. So, I think about all of that. I am. broken. Um I also. this is work for me. I've been and I've. been here a long time. I mean, I don't. think for people and I it would be much. less your audience than maybe, you know, someone who just would use clips of me, you know, take down clips or whatever it.

is. But, you know, I've been at Fox 10 years. I I know everyone's husbands and wives. I know kids. It It is a a normal work. environment in a lot of ways. And it's a. really. great place to work. And. I have stories and a lot of this is in. the book, you know. I got promoted to. this massive job. pregnant. Like heavily pregnant. Like my back. hurts. I can't sit here any longer.

pregnant. But, a good thing is happening. for me professionally. You know, there. it's. it's just not what a lot of people think. that it is. And that doesn't mean that. the opinions. cuz I get that, too. Like, how much your. colleagues actually believe these. things? Like, a lot of it. And that sucks, too. Right? That That means that I have to work. harder to open up the mind to the idea. that the alternative actually isn't, you. know, that you'll never be able to eat.

meat again and you have to have your. kids going to be transed or whatever. they might say. But, it's funny and I think I mentioned this. to you when. uh we saw each other at Crooked Con last. year. I'm much newer to liberal environments. than I am to conservative ones. Like, I've been to more RNCs than DNCs. And. have, you know, >> [snorts]. >> more connections to Republican media.

environment than to a Democratic media. environment. And so, while I am broken, I'm also really okay. And I'm good a lot. of days. And. I think and that's why I put so much of, you know, how I do what I do in this book for. people because I think. we can all get better at it. And then, by extension, we can win more. I mean, the book is about winning. Your book is. about winning. Like, eye on the prize.

now, right? Like, we've got the midterms. coming up. I'm feeling. good about it. Not great, great, great, great, but like I I want to big to. Reagan all of the things. Um and I think that this is really. a critical component in all of that. And. to not just do the debates, right? It's. I I know it's so popular that Tik Tok. had to create a vertical for it because. everyone likes to see this. They want to. see the back and forth and the exchange. of ideas, but they want to see the.

takedowns. Like, what I'm engaged in is. like I said, it's it's a long-term. relationship, right? And there are days. where there are haymakers thrown, but. there are days where there's just. talking about kind of. loose light topics and being able to. shoot the And you should be able. to do that with people who have garbage. politics. >> Yeah. >> I know you might not like to, but you. should be able to. >> Well, look, I think it is beyond clear, you know, first of all, the the.

sacrifice that it takes to be able to do. that. And I'm sure 99.9%. of people who are watching and listening. right now are are perfectly content that. that they don't have to put themselves. in that kind of environment every day. But, um that just underscores the. importance of the work that you do. Um. so, I would highly recommend for. everybody who's watching and listening. right now, if you want to support the. work that Jess does on a daily basis, grab a copy of I Disagree, Winning. Arguments Without Losing Friends. I'm. going to put that link in. right here on the screen, in the post.

description of this video, and also in. the show notes if you're listening on. the podcast. Grab a copy, support her. work. She is working day in and day out. to persuade voters. and it makes a difference. You know, I. know that a lot of people would applaud. when Gavin Newsom or Pete Buttigieg went. on Fox News or right-wing media and and. talk about how how important it is to. finally expose that audience to some. truth. Nobody does it more than than. Jessica Tarlov. So again, to show some. support for the work that she's doing. every single day, grab a copy of that.

book, I Disagree. And and Jess, thank. you so much for taking the time. >> Yeah, no, it's great to be with you. Thanks.