BREAKING: Attorney responds to SHOCK Trump pardon

I'm joined now by the pardon attorney. under President Biden, Liz Oyer. Thanks. so much for taking the time. Thanks for. having me on, Brian. So, the issue of. pardons has absolutely been in the news. lately as Donald Trump has ramped up his. spate of pardons. And that's owed in. large part to the fact that Ed Martin, who was the uh former acting deputy US. attorney in Washington DC, has moved. from that post where he was an intram uh. where he was an intram US attorney um. and obviously couldn't couldn't get um. couldn't get a confirmed to a to a full. term over to the pardon attorney office.

where where you worked. And so what has. Ed Martin done to the office that you. previously worked at? Well, Ed Martin is one of the most. political figures in the Trump. administration. He has replaced me in a. position that historically has always. been held by a career employee of the. Department of Justice, someone who is. not a political appointee. I was not a. presidential appointee. I was a career, meaning that the intent was that I would. serve under any president. And that is. what I fully expected to do until I was.

fired in March and replaced by Ed Martin. who has really very much politicized the. pardon function. And can you talk about. some of these pardon pardons that have. been recommended obviously by by Ed. Martin and that have been carried out by. Donald Trump and I'm talking. specifically some names that have been. in the news lately have been the. Chrisleys who had a reality TV show. Um. and then you've got uh uh Paul Walzac, Scott Jenkins. Can you talk talk about. some of these folks and what it means. that these were the ones who got. pardons? The president has been.

pardoning people who have not applied. through the ordinary process. There is a. long-standing established process where. the Department of Justice vets. applicants. But what's happening right. now seems to be that there is a pardon. economy. People are seeking uh to to. lobby for their pardons and hiring. highric lobbyists and lawyers to access. the president jump the line and get. their applications on the desk. Most of. these people have been celebrities, uh, political officials, people who are.

supporters of MAGA and President Trump. who have been successful in this. process. And you've named some of the. notable ones. The Chryslies are a. reality TV couple whose daughter has. been aggressively lobbying for a pardon, including by trying to paint her parents. as victims of Biden's Justice Department. and the weaponization of justice in the. same vein as President Trump. But. actually, they were prosecuted in a case. that was initiated under President Trump. when he was originally the president.

So, it's sort of a bizarre set of. circumstances. They also committed a. large-scale financial fraud, which is an. unusual profile of a type of case to. pardon. Uh you mentioned uh the Grim. case. Grim is one of eight corrupt. public officials who have received a. pardon from President Trump to date. during his second term in office. That's. also very unusual that people who abuse. their political office and abuse the. public trust would receive a. presidential pardon. His case is.

actually not the most egregious. There. are there are others I I think that are. are more stunning. There's a corrupt. sheriff in Virginia who was selling. badges for cash who received a full. pardon. There's a an elected official in. Nevada named Michelle Fior who actually. embezzled money from a police memorial. fund and used it for plastic surgery who. received a full pardon from President. Trump. So these are not the types of. people that traditionally would be. considered for that type of relief, but. because they are supporters and boosters.

of President Trump, they're having. success under the Ed Martin pardon. regime. Can you talk about Paul Walzac. uh in particular because I think that. one was perhaps the most egregious that. we've seen during this administration. Yeah, Walszac's case is really a. shocking one. It's it's a case in which. he presided over a nursing home company. essentially. He ran medical care. facilities and he skimmed money off the. tops of the paychecks of his doctors and. nurses. He in total uh committed a fraud. in the amount of almost $11 million. He.

then argued to try to stay out of jail. And the judge who sentenced him told. him, "Wealth is not a get out of jail. free card in this country." Oh, little. did he know. Right. Right. Exactly. So, I'm sentencing you to 18 months in. prison plus you've got to pay back the. money that you stole. Literally days. later, Trump swooped in and granted. Walsack a full pardon, which means no. jail and it also wipes out his. obligation to repay that money that he. stole. Trump is sending the exact.

opposite message of the one that the. judge wanted to send. He's sending the. message that wealth can be a get out of. jail free card as long as you use your. wealth to support President Trump. And. that's exactly what we saw happen in the. Wallsack case. It has come out that. Walssack's mother attended a. million-dollar a plate dinner at Mara. Lago just days before he received that. pardon. Well, you know what I think is. so egregious about this case, too, is. that the whole basis, the whole. purported basis for passing this uh this.

budget bill that strips, you know, healthcare away from 14 million people, food stamps away to the tune of $300. billion is that there's all of this uh. there's all of this purported uh fraud. happening with Medicaid and other earned. benefit programs. And of course, they. haven't brought any forward, but in in. this instance, this is what that fraud. looks like. And so you've got Donald. Trump pardoning somebody who committed. the exact crime that he's claiming we. need to do all of these cuts because. those people are so dangerous, so. egregious that we have to strip.

healthcare away from 14 million people. That's how deep-seated and and uh and. egregious this this criminality is. And. yet the the guy who's actually doing it. gets a free pass. Yeah, that's exactly. right. And that's a really important. point. There's no principle to any of. this. This is just purely transactional. And in this case, Trump was able to cut. a deal with the mother of Paul Walsac. where he got a million dollars to for. her to attend this dinner and he was. willing to dole out a full pardon in.

exchange for that. That is really the. definition of corruption. Another. similar case kind of to to what we were. just talking about where where you've. got somebody who committed the exact. crime that Republicans are are. pretending um or are using as a basis. for for their own cuts is you've got um. you've got Russ who was granted a. pardon. Uh he oversaw Silk Road which is. this this underground um this. underground marketplace and fentanyl was. was um sold on this marketplace. So this.

is again um a justification by the Trump. administration to for example ratchet up. this trade war and they said all of this. fentanyl is coming across uh the the. Mexican and and Canadian border and so. we have to engage in this you know in. this big tariff regime that the Trump. administration is putting forward but. then you've got a guy who is actually. trafficking in this stuff or enabling or. facilitating the trafficking of this. stuff and he also gets a pardon from the. Trump administration. Yeah. What is so. hypocritical about this is that Russ was.

running an underground black market. empire that was trafficking in huge. amounts of illegal drugs. And at his. trial, the government proved that there. were six overdose o overdose deaths. specifically linked to drugs that were. purchased on the Silk Road marketplace, including the death of a teenager who. overdosed on drugs that were purchased. on the Silk Road. So the idea that. they're now pardoning Albertch, it's. just it it demonstrates that it's all. total hypocrisy. There are no real. principles governing any of this. I will.

say that Ross Alber's life sentence was. a very harsh sentence. It's a very steep. sentence and we do have a problem in. this country with over incarceration, but this is a serious case and the. pardon that was extended is not. consistent with other priorities that. the president has publicly espoused. There was also evidence presented at. Albert's trial that he um in attempted. to solicit some some murders and. additions. So, it was really a pretty. complex case with a lot of bad facts. going on in the background. But the.

reason that he got this pardon is. because Trump cut a deal with the. libertarians that if he were elected. with their support, he would pardon Ross. Albrech. They believed that he was. sentenced to harshly. And so, again, this is totally transactional. There are. no principles underlying any of it. It. is just a business deal. Trump is. literally using the powers of the. presidency uh to to en enrich himself. and to uh bolster his own political. support which really again it's just.

it's corrupt. Are there any limits to to. what Trump would be able to do with the. pardon power or is it plenary and he has. you know full control of who he pardons. and there's no checks to his power. whatsoever. The pardon power is a. totally unfettered, unchecked. presidential power under the. constitution. It actually derives from. the powers of of a king. And it's. intended to be used for mercy. It's. intended to be used for good, but it it. gives the president total discretion to. pardon whomever he chooses for whatever.

reason he deems appropriate. And to. exercise that power for good requires. that the person wielding it actually has. good intentions. And we're seeing that. that's not the case here. It's a. challenging situation that we're in. because there's really nothing that can. be done to reign in the president's use. of the clemency power short of a. constitutional amendment. But I do think. that we have seen such corrupt and. inappropriate uses of the pardon power. in the first few months of his. presidency that we ought to be having a.

serious conversation about whether some. constitutional reform is appropriate to. limit the president's pardon power in. some way. And I want to dig into exactly. that in just a moment, but a quick. question first. Has there ever been a. check to a presidential pardon? Has. there ever been anybody who was granted. a pardon or granted clemency and and for. some reason it wasn't allowed to go. through? So once a once a clemency is granted, it. cannot be undone once the president has. signed off on it. What we have seen with.

some of Trump's early pardons, the. pardons he granted in the last. administration, is that some of those. individuals are now back in prison on. new charges. There is a reason why. there's a process that normally runs. through the Department of Justice for. reviewing candidates for pardons. It's. so that they can be appropriately. vetted. In Trump's first term in office, the Department of Justice was not. allowed to do the type of vetting that. typically occurs. Uh, and as a result, some people got through the pardon. process that really were not deserving.

or appropriate candidates. There is an. individual named Jonathan Braun in New. York who has been arrested four or five. times already since he was pardoned by. Trump during the first administration. He actually received a commutation, so. reduction of his sentence. And now he is. back in prison after having been. arrested for assaulting a child and for. assaulting and groping a nanny who. worked for him. So, he's somebody who's. a really excellent example of why these. types of pardons are are dangerous and.

and inappropriate. Now, you'd mentioned. before that some type of constitutional. amendment or reforms are needed. What do. you think that should look like? Because. on one hand, you do have this power that. was granted in the Constitution and and. that most presidents have wielded. responsibly and that are that that that. could serve as a a as a a helpful tool. in the face of a criminal justice system. that may often be either erroneous in. its decisions or or or too harsh in the. sentences that it hands down. Um and we.

saw a a lot of President Obama wielded. it es especially responsibly in terms of. who he opted to give a second chance to. So, I don't want to just throw the baby. out with the bathwater. Um, but at the. same time, clearly this administration. is showing that some reforms are needed. And so, what do you think, um, having. having served in the position you served. in, those reforms should look like? I. came into the role of pardon attorney as. a big believer in second chances and a. big believer in the power of clemency to. do good. You're absolutely right that.

that power was at its height under. President Obama who used the clemency. power in a disciplined and principled. way to reduce the sentences of thousands. of people who were serving outdated, overly lengthy mandatory minimum. sentences mostly for nonviolent drug. offenses. So that's a great example of. how clemency can be used to reduce some. of the harms of mass incarceration in. this country. But when clemency can be. used for political objectives or for. financial objectives as we're seeing.

now, that's dangerous and destructive to. our system of justice. So in my view, we. need to be considering some reforms that. limit the purposes for which clemency. can be granted and that require some. real vetting by objective non-political. parties like the folks in the office of. the pardon attorney who are ordinarily. entrusted to do that vetting. There are. so many deserving people out there who. really would benefit appropriately from.

second chances through clemency, but. those hooks are all being overlooked. right now in favor of these politically. connected individuals or those who have. shown loyalty to the president and his. causes. And that's really uh unfortunate. for for us all. Liz, when you see. somebody like like former Democratic. Senator Bob Mendez go on Twitter and and. make these very overt, blatant, transparent um pleas for Donald Trump to. pardon him by by talking about the. weaponization of government and and.

whatnot. How what what do you what's. your reaction to seeing stuff like that. where it's very clear what he's trying. to do? Um and it's also obviously clear. that Trump has shown a proclivity to do. it. Yeah, it it it really illustrates how. much power the president has been able. to amass through just the promise of of. clemency, through the possibility of. clemency. Everyone who has any type of. criminal conviction now knows that if. they pander to the president, they have.

a shot of being considered for clemency. So, the president's essentially amassing. an army of people who are willing to do. whatever it takes for him with the hope. of getting clemency. We saw the same. thing in the case of Eric Adams. Although Adams didn't need clemency. because he was never convicted, the. Justice Department dismissed the charges. against him because he demonstrated that. he was willing to do the president's. bidding. It's a very dangerous precedent. to set and it really uh helps to empower. the president to do uh illegitimate.

things and to seek political retribution. against enemies, to grant favors to. friends. It's just not the type of. justice system that we that we want in. this this country or that we've ever had. in this country. It's very dangerous and. very um very alarming. Yeah. And what's. what's most hypocritical about it is. that this administration came into. office under this pretense that they. were going to restore law and order and. that they that they were railing against. these purported two tiers of justice.

when in fact Donald Trump has benefited. from another tier of justice throughout. the entirety of the 2024 campaign cycle. by virtue of being able to evade uh. conviction for you know three out of the. four cases that he was charged in. And. uh and of course now you know you've got. uh you've got him just pardoning anybody. who's willing to give him some money or. he can derive some uh political benefit. from Liz. Uh how can folks who are. watching right now uh read more from. you? Well, I have a Substack now called. Lawyer Oyer and I'm writing a lot about.

Trump's pardons and also other issues of. concern at the Department of Justice. So. I would encourage folks to subscribe to. Lawyer Oyer. I've tried to do a deep. dive on some of these recent pardons. with some more information for those who. are interested. I'm also on Instagram. and Tik Tok again as lawyer Oyer and. trying to educate folks about what's. happening in the Department of Justice. right now and how the pardon power is. being misused. Excellent. Well, um I'm. going to put the link to your Substack. right here on the screen and also in the. post description of this video. If.

you're listening on the podcast, I'll. put it in the show notes. Liz, I. appreciate your time. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for having me on, Brian. Really appreciate the. conversation. [Music].