BACKFIRE: Trump’s biggest promise BLOWS UP as his OWN voters REVOLT

Just days ago, Trump decided to come out. and promise 5,000 bucks to every. American, but only if the Republicans. won the midterms. It was a lie as. transparent as it was desperate, not to. mention illegal. But still, Trump told. it because, as I always say, he thinks. his audience is stupid and never waste. an opportunity to show it. Well, we now. have some data backing up that point. And it's not great for Trump. According. to Elliot Morris, voters aren't confused. about the motive either. 62% said Trump. made the promise mainly to win votes in. November. And only 13% think he.

genuinely intends to send the money. Moreover, 71% of adults say it is. inappropriate for a president to promise. government payments that depend on his. party winning an election, including 53%. of Republicans. Only about a quarter. think the checks would actually go out. even if Republicans win. We also asked. voters whether Trump's promise makes. them more or less likely to vote for. Republican candidates in Congress. 28%. said less likely. 13% said more likely. and 53% said it makes no difference. But. many voters in that 13% already told us.

they were voting Republican in November. Fewer than 4% of adults say the checks. make them more likely to vote Republican. and aren't already there. This offsets. with large losses among independents who. said by an 11point margin Trump's scheme. turned them off. So, not only did voters. not believe Trump's $5,000 promise, but. the people who did believe it were. already voting for Trump, and more. people were actually turned off by it. than it pulled in. Think about that. A. net loss of voters after Trump tried to.

buy people off. And I'd imagine that. part of the reason that voters don't. believe him is that he's done this. before constantly. He promised a Doge. dividend that never materialized, a. tariff dividend that never materialized. Back in his first term, it was a middle. class tax cut that never materialized. This guy has bait and switched his own. voters more times than Lucy's pulled the. football away from Charlie Brown. So, no, they're not buying it. Another. pretty funny byproduct of this is that. it's undermined the Republicans ability. to frame the Democrats as these spooky. socialists who are trying to give. everything away. Like for example,

>> but the problem is this. Democrats by a. pretty wide margin seem to like. socialism. >> Well, they were never taught of the. horrors of socialism and the greatness. of capitalism. the radical socialist. platform that seems to be taking over. the Democratic party. >> Socialism doesn't fly. >> And just days ago, the Senate. Republicans official Twitter account. wrote, "Democrat socialists love to. promise free stuff, but they never. mention who pays for it." My dudes, your. leader is out here promising money like.

Oprah. Only difference being that Oprah. actually does what she says. So, I'm. heartened to see people waking up to the. lies from this president and his party. For years, they have been treating their. audiences and their voters with utter. contempt, assuming that they will fall. for whatever they say, no matter how. many times they refuse to deliver. But. this government has finally put an end. to all of that. This is a Republican. party that swore prices would go down. They've gone up. They swore no new wars. We're in one. They swore the Epstein. files would be released. They're. suppressing 3 million documents. They.

swore cheaper gas and lower inflation. Instead, they're rising or at record. highs. It's bad enough to fail to. deliver. It's something entirely worse. to fail to deliver and yet still pretend. like you are. And the blue wave that. we're going to see in November will. prove that there is just a limit to how. much Americans are willing to be lied. to. You're watching the No Lie podcast. Next up is my interview with Jonathan. Swan. No lie is brought to you by. Factor. It is genuinely tough to stick. to any semblance of a diet when the. weather gets nice and friends start. getting together and a box of cookies is.

just a few taps away on the phone. But. as we head into fall, it is definitely. time to lock in. And Factor makes it. easier than ever, even when I'm on the. go. Factor makes chef crafted, dietitian-designed, ready to eat meals, so you don't have to choose between real. food and convenience. With over 175. banned ingredients, every Factor meal is. designed around what supports a. healthier lifestyle and nothing that. doesn't. Factor meals are ready in 2. minutes and requires no prep and no. cleanup. So, even on the days where your.

schedule is completely out of control, eating well is very achievable. Every. week, you'll find over a 100. nutrient-dense menu items to choose from. and new options like salmon burgers, shredded pork, collard greens, and more. Plus add-ons that you'll crave, like. pumpkin flavored cheesecakes, and. protein shakes. 97% of users agree that. Factor meals help them live a healthier. lifestyle. So, you can feel confident. that you're doing something good for. yourself with every single meal. I'm. picky when it comes to food, but Factor. is legitimately delicious, healthy, and. I could not recommend it highly enough.

So, let's eat real. Head to. factormeals.com/btc50. off and use code BTC50 off to get 50%. off and one free breakfast item per box. for 1 year while supplies last until. 10:3126. That's code BTC50 off atacmeals.com. btc50 offactormeals.com. No lie is brought to you by Quint. We've. all got those pieces in our closets that. we find ourselves wearing over and over. again. The sweater that goes with. everything, the perfect pair of pants,

or the tea that we somehow always reach. for first. Those are the pieces that. makes getting dressed easy. And that's. what Quint does best. Quint focuses on. high-quality wardrobe staples made with. premium materials like 100% Mongolian. cashmere, organic cotton, and marino. wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the. dependable pieces that you reach for day. after day. Their 100% Mongolian Kashmir. sweaters start at just 60 bucks, giving. you the softness and quality that you. would expect from a luxury brand without. the luxury price tag. Quint also makes. premium pants, fitted TE's, and polos,

and breathable active wear. Quality. basics designed to work across your. wardrobe and hold up to everyday wear. Everything at Quint is priced 50 to 80%. less than similar brands. They work. directly with ethical factories and cut. out the middlemen, so you're paying for. high quality, not brand markup. My Quint. cotton mesh stitch button-up sweater. polo has become a legit staple in my. wardrobe. The quality of a $150 sweater, but nowhere near that price. And it's. not just clothing. Quint brings that. same approach to everything they make,

from hotel quality bedding and bath to. kitchen essentials and thoughtfully. designed uh furniture. They make. well-designed pieces for everyday. living. Find your next fall favorites at. Quint. Download the Quint app for app. exclusive offers. Or go to. quint.com/btc. Get free shipping on your order and. 365day returns. Now available in Canada. and the UK too. That's quinc. nce.com/btc. I'm joined now by the author of the new. book regime change, Jonathan Swan. Jonathan, thanks for joining me. >> Great to be here. Thanks.

>> So I argue and have argued that Donald. Trump is an autocrat. This is somebody. who is seeking to use the military as. his own personal police force, who's. undermined the Constitution, who doesn't. accept election results where he loses. At the same time, in your book, you and. Maggie describe uh uh a document where. Donald Trump compares himself to Mao, to. Stalin, to Hitler, Attilla the Hun, Gangghaskhan. So, where is the. disconnect here? Because the right will. lose their minds if you make any.

reference to Donald Trump acting as a. dictator or an autocrat. Um, but at the. same time, he seems to relish that. comparison. You know, I suppose the word. has connotations that people don't want. to, you know, deal with, but as you. said, Trump himself embraces it. Yeah. >> You know, he posted on Truth Social the. other day a picture of his face, uh, looking at the globe and it says his. hemisphere. I mean, he he's embracing.

the idea that he's at a minimum a. regional hegeimon. um he doesn't view countries in this. hemisphere as independent sovereign. countries. He views Venezuela as an. American colony essentially and and. Marco Rubio is the viceroy of Venezuela. So. >> one one of Marco Rubio's many jobs, >> right? So you know I don't get too hung. up on, you know, the terminology. We try. to describe in the book what he's doing. and it's indisputable that he has.

expanded presidential power and used. presidential power in ways that a the. framers did not intend and b uh in ways. that no president in our lifetime in. some respects no president ever has done. before. Do you think that there is uh a. full acceptance by the Republican party. that this is not a political movement. that's interested in democracy? Like do. you think that what we're seeing right.

now is is just the Republican party. relinquishing their participation in a. democracy? >> I think what we're seeing that is not. more notable is a whole branch of. government decide to remove themselves. from the field. Um. >> and this is the legislative branch. Yeah, last year we make the argument in. the book and I think it's indisputable. that in 2025 Donald Trump wielded more. absolute control and dominance over his. own party in Congress than any president.

that we've ever seen. And Congress. ceased to operate as a check against the. executive branch. It ceased to operate. as an independent branch of government. It became a subsidiary of the. administration. And you saw senators. who we know from our reporting felt that. people like Pete Hath were grossly unfit. to be in the jobs that they were put in. Grossly. And yet under you know fear and pressure.

they voted for him. So when you have a. whole branch of of government decide to. essentially seed the field that's how. you get this dynamic. The only way. people talk about, well, how do you. restore some semblance of the system. that we have, American style democracy? Well, you can't have the system when one. branch ceases to function and pieces out. and then the other branch, the. judiciary, is stacked with Trump. appointees all the way up. Do you think. that these Republicans are realizing.

that contracting all of their autonomy. over to the executive branch was a. mistake? As we see brand new polling, for example, showing that Democrats are. now favored in the House and the Senate. Fox News just released a poll a few days. ago, showing that they're shifting 15. races in favor of Democrats. There were. no races that were shifted in favor of. Republicans. Trump himself is now. saddled with, according to the American. Research Group polling, a 29% approval. rating. That's the first time in either. of his terms that he's had an approval. rating in the 20s. As we know, midterm.

elections are a referendum on the. president and the party in power, but. the party in power, as you've said, has. contracted all of their power over to. the executive branch. Do you think that. there is some recognition from these. other Republicans that they've made a. mistake by making their entire identity. just Donald Trump who now himself has. become so toxic? Yeah. I mean, like you're seeing the. evidence of that, right? You're starting. to see Republicans distance themselves. from Trump. I'm not saying it's.

happening um on mass because a lot of. these Republicans still have the. calculation that well we need the base. to show up um in in the election and yes. his approval rating has fallen. precipitously among independents and. enthusiasm is way down but he's still. generally popular among Republicans. So. they have this balancing act. He's toxic. among the general electorate. Still. pretty popular among Republicans. and. they have to figure out what do I do?

So, you know, you see Salazar in Florida. um come out with an ad where she's to. the camera criticizing the president on. immigration. You start to see some. candidates scrubbing his name from their. websites. >> Um so, you you are seeing that you don't. you know you don't have to dig inside. their minds. You just look at the. behavior. But it's too late. It's too. late. It's not it's not believable for. for voters that these people. >> 5 minutes before, >> right? I mean, it's it's it's it's you.

know, I mean, it's it's ridiculous. You. know, someone who's been in absolute. lock step, you know, until the eve of. the election, you know, it's okay, fine. Throughout this whole process, since the. book was released, there have been these. constant attacks by Trump himself where. he's gone after you guys. Um he he he he. goes after Maggie more acutely, but you. know it it's not I wouldn't put it past. Trump to attack the woman in a in a male.

female duo to go after the woman more. frequently. But. did he think that when you guys were. interviewing him that you were going to. write a a puff piece on him and then or. is this like hey kay fabe? Is this him. just pretending to be angry, but at the. same time he kind of relishes the. attention that he's given by virtue of. being in this book, even if he's. presented as the heel. So there's no. kayf like you know my colleagues at the. New York Times reported 2 months ago. about um serious security concerns with.

Air Force One. 48 hours after the story, FBI agents showed up at their front. doors serving them subpoenas. Um he's. suing the New York Times. This is all. very draining on resources. Um, he's. investigating a number of our stories, particularly with regard to the. munitions crisis. Um, trying to find our. sources. That stuff is just it's deadly serious. There's no kayfabe involved. Um, as for.

Trump talking to reporters, we tried to. get an interview with him for a couple. months through the front through the. press office and the thing and they. everyone thought it was we learned. subsequently was trying to block us. getting the interview. They thought it. was a bad idea, right? No one was. saying, "Oh, president, you should. really sit down, you know, and do this. interview.". >> So, we went directly to President Trump. and and the fact is every reporter in. Washington has his phone number and he. will pick up the phone and talk. So, we. went directly to him and that's how we. ended up getting the interview. Trump.

will talk to anyone. He just will. Um, and he will take anyone's call. Um, he. will. believe that he's his own best spokesman. and generally speaking, he'll think that. it's worth his while to put his message. out there and see how it goes. Um, I. don't think he had any illusions that. this would be a puff book or a. flattering book or what have you, but I. also think he has known Maggie in. particular for a very long time and um,

you know, felt it was worth his while to. sit down with us. >> Isn't he busy? Like the the notion that. somebody would take anybody's call and. talk to anybody. I mean, I know what I. do as a YouTuber on a daily basis and. like I don't have that much time if. somebody like the amount of calls that I. have to screen because I just don't have. enough hours in the day and I'm not, you. know, leading the the US military. Um, what percentage of his presidency does. it come across seems like him marketing.

his own presidency versus the actual. governing aspect of things? >> Well, you know, it's interesting. I I. think there's a a split. You're look. particularly last year we were watching. what looked like this frenzy of action. which it was you know particularly the. first three executive. >> order it was absolutely and it was very. well they planned it all out and and. what have you. >> but when you talk to people who go in. and meet with Trump they say it's like. he has all the time in the world. >> You know George W. Bush, Barack Obama,

they used to have their schedule down to. like 10-minute increments. you know, this a meeting with Trump meanders can. meander for 2 three hours with people. wandering in and out. Um, way off the. agenda. Um, you could spend an hour. talking about the ballroom and the. Corinthian columns and the type of. marble that he's putting in the. bathroom. >> I think somebody asked him like how his. meeting with President Xi went and the. first thing he said was that we spoke.

about granite, >> right? Which I two global superpowers. completely believe that. By the way, um. >> that's not the part I doubt that. But. >> when we went in and saw the president. for this book for when we interviewed. him, he was seemed completely unhurried. Um it was the 17th day of the war with. Iran. And the war seemed to be the. furthest thing from his mind. He had uh. printouts of photographs of maple trees. on the Resolute desk um because he said.

he was buying maple trees for the White. House. >> And then he had different angles uh. images of the ballroom. >> and that was what he wanted us to see. first. >> That was the first probably 15 minutes. of the interview. And you talk to anyone. who spends time with him, he spends an. inordinate amount of time essentially on. interior decoration and trying to figure. out how to put his name on more. physical, you know, monuments and other.

aspects of uh Washington DC. the way. that I think about this and this is. coming from somebody who is who is you. know both a cynic and and uh uh. contemptuous of him which is that like. you move to honor yourself by by you. know etching your name into all these. structures now because. in the future you don't have that much. faith that somebody's going to do it for. you and so you have to honor yourself. now before he leaves office because.

really what what history is going to. show is that he was the first autocratic. president of this country that that he. left office kind of ushering in the. second guilded age where uh folks are. are are more desolate, hungrier, sicker, poorer than they were before. And so, you know, like if if he doesn't do it, who's who's going to do it? I don't know. if you have the same read on things or. if it's just some degree of malignant. narcissism. But what do you make of the. fact that he that his sole focus here. seems to be shoving his face and and. name onto as many structures as.

possible? >> I hope I'm not misremembering this, but. I don't think I am. Um Ben Terrace from. New York Magazine wrote a piece recently. um about Trump's interior, you know, renovations and projects of in DC. And I. think Trump himself admitted out loud. that if he doesn't do it, no one else. will. >> Yeah. Okay. So, >> and so I I actually think he said that. um he remember one of his great um.

sources of rage when he left the first. time was his name being taken off. buildings um was, you know, PGA event. being taken away from his golf course. And so I think a big part of his. determination when he came back to. office was I'm going to put my name in a. way on so many things that it will be. permanent. You know, it was a big deal. for him that the Palm Beach airport. became the Donald J. Trump airport. Um. the library, which no one talks about,

it's not actually a library that he's. been built. It's it's a tower. It's a. giant tower. Looks like um the freedom. tower um in Miami on gifted land. Um, and we report in the book that they're. soliciting money from the Saudis to. build it. You know, this is the story of. the administration, but he is trying to. make sure that he is unerasable. Um, because I think he realizes cuz he's. gone through that experience that he. will be that there will be efforts to uh.

take his name off. >> What do what do you think the reaction. will be if you have a Democratic. president and the the ballroom gets. renamed because Democrats have full. control of government? like in that. hypothetical situation where you have a. Democratic president, House, Senate, you. have the, you know, what I'm sure will. be the the Donald J. Trump uh. presidential ballroom, >> strike that name, it becomes the the. Barack Hussein Obama presidential. ballroom. What happens in the aftermath. of that moment as far as Trump is. concerned based on your interactions.

with him? >> I think the way he sees the ballroom is. regardless of what name I mean obviously. I'm sure he would want it to be the. Donald J. whatever. But he he built it. and everyone will know that and that. was, you know, he's changed the White. House in that way. And. >> it's not really conceivable to me that. it would be bulldozed, you know? >> Right. I I agree with that. Well, let's. let's expand expand the scope of this. question. Um all of the things he's. trying to etch his name into, you've. got, you know, >> he'd be he'd be enraged. I mean, look at.

look at the Kennedy Center. They took. his name off the Kennedy Center and he's. talking about bulldozing the Kennedy. Center. Okay. So So, you know, that's. the reaction. I mean, you have you you. drive down um you know, near the White. House, Washington DC, you see the Donald. J. Trump Institute of Peace, by the way, an institute that they tried to shut. down during Doge. And then he stuck his. name on it. Um. >> I mean, I don't think it takes a genius. to realize that if a Democrat comes into. the White House, that's just going to. not be called the Donald J. Trump. Institute of Peace. So, you know, he'll. be he'll be watching all of that very.

closely. >> Okay. So the fact that [snorts] we're. talking about this and the fact that. he's doing all of this obviously. underscores the extent to which his. focus is on these vanity projects and. not regular people. Is there any. recognition on on his uh on his behalf. where where, you know, his focus is on, you know, kind of this this like let. them eat cake type deal where he is just. focused on building himself a ballroom. and a triumphal arch and encrusting the.

Oval Office in gold and redoing the. reflecting pool at the same time that. his election was predicated on this idea. that people felt forgotten in this. country and they couldn't afford. grocery. I mean, he talked about like. this this uh elusive old-fashioned word, groceries. Like, that was the focus of. his campaign. He had a he had a quote a. clip that I that I often throw to in my. videos where he says the reason he won. the election was yes, immigration, uh. but also the cost of groceries. And now. all of those costs that that left people.

feeling so destitute have been. exacerbated. And yet all the while his. focus is just on these interior design. projects. One thing we found when we. were reporting the book just again and. again and again when we were talking to. people who were either working for him. in the government or people who would. come in and visit him is his mind was. not on domestic policy um or cost of. living issues or any of the things that. you were talking about. In fact, he. wasn't even particularly worried about.

domestic politics. Yeah. you know, his. staff were desperate for him to care. more about the midterm elections, to be. more invested in the results of the. midterm elections. But if you look at it. from Trump's perspective, his existential victory, his great. victory was 2024 where he saw the stakes. as I may end up in prison or I may end. up back in the White House. And after he. won that, it was all about um a legacy. in his mind, which is imprinting himself.

all over the world, doing quote unquote. big things, which is overwhelmingly in. the field of foreign affairs. You know, he he thought he could be the first. president 47 years to depose, you know, get rid of this Iranian regime. He. obviously did regime change in. Venezuela. You know, you get the idea. there. the cost of living issues are very low. down on the hierarchy. And what's really. interesting, Brian, is we're seeing for. the first time, say what you want about.

Trump, but historically he's been pretty. good at getting on the right side of. populist issues. Right. He's now on the. wrong side of some of the biggest. populist issues in the country. AI, right? >> Right. One of the most the clearest cut. polling you will see. We talk to. Republican strategists, talk to. Democratic strategists, data centers, people are overwhelmingly opposed to. them, fearful of this technology. And. Trump sounds, if you if you transcribed. one of his comments about AI, it might.

as well be Jensen Huang. Might as well. be Sam Oldman. He is an he is an. evangelist about this technology. Completely on the other side of this. populist issue, the Iran war. Um, uh, you know, go down the list. the the. public does not uh find it endearing. that he is building this ballroom and. gilding everything and that his family. is making orders of magnitude more money. than they've ever made. It's coming. through in focus groups. It's coming. through in polling. His team knows that.

I mean, we got we got private focus. groups in polling for the book and this. was like early this year. It was. horrific. It was alarm bells just. ringing out. >> He just doesn't care that much. So that. suggests that you know he is acting I. mean obviously it's amplified you know. orders of magnitude higher but that that. he's acting like a lame duck which I. guess raises the question what do you. think he will do as it relates to a.

third term. He's not exactly acting like. somebody who is going to run for a third. term, but at the same time, this kind of. thing has been floated and you know, he. obviously refuses to rule out the. prospect, but just curious uh you know, >> so I I'm I make a practice of never like. glibly dismissing any like after January. 6, I don't sort of say, "Oh, no, every. you know, right, whatever." I don't sort. of preemptively rule out anything. But. I'm not seeing any signs in our. reporting for the book, for the. newspaper that Donald Trump is preparing.

for a third term or that he even wants. to um think from his perspective. >> or at this point that he could. I mean. like. so so you know he's and I don't I don't. even legally I mean like. >> Sure. No, I understand. I understand. But but but you know, for example, we. have scenes in the book where he's. Rupert Murdoch's over for dinner and. he's asking Murdoch to assess who he. likes better, JD Vance or Marco Rubio. He's constantly asking people what do. you think of JD, thinking about the. prim, you know, more of a sport for him.

It's almost like he's a color. commentator talking about this stuff. But um so I don't see any indications. privately, publicly that that he is. contemplating that. And you know from. his perspective. his family make $2 billion or more. probably way more than we know way more. than we know. Um he uh you know he is. remaking Washington in his image. Um he.

is um uh doing whatever he wants in the. role. He's going to he has said we. reported in the book that he's going to. pardon anyone who came within 250 ft of. the oval office. He has sweeping. immunity from the Supreme Court. He has. nothing to fear legally, >> right? >> So, you know, I think he will the. probably the thing he will miss most uh. is the attention. The book obviously. made a ton of news as it [snorts]. relates to the first question I asked. which was about the different dictators. and autocrats throughout history.

Natalie Harp was a big story as well. Was there any any anecdote or aspect of. the book that you thought would make. more news and maybe for maybe because of. some other news cycle that that. overshadowed it didn't? I I I I. think the um. the fact that they were seriously. contemplating. suspending habius rights, which we I. mean we got private memos that the White.

House staff secretary wrote, which you. know, very dry legal language, but very. clearly sounding the alarm bell that. this idea that Steven Miller was. pushing, that the president was. contemplating, one of the most. fundamental they're basically this this. is a these are rights that predate the. constitution go back to the Magna Carta. you know the right to if you are if the. government detains you they lock you up. the right to challenge your detention. doesn't get much more fundamental than. that and the fact that they were people.

we knew that they I mean they talked. Steve Miller talked about it but the. fact that it was taken seriously enough. internally that a hardcore loyalist Will. Sha who's the staff Secretary, now the. White House council, the fact that he. felt compelled to put this down on paper. and we reported this in the book and. disclosed this in the book, it got. attention. We reported in the New York. Times, but I mean it's a pretty big. deal. >> Yeah. >> And and I feel like with all the things.

that are going, it just sort of was just. one of the things that, you know, >> kind of glossed over a little bit. >> Yeah. uh when you were with Axios during. Trump's first term. Uh obviously that. was uh I know we were speaking with with. my team uh you know right right here in. this room just before this interview. started. That was the the I think the. best interview that any of us have have. seen with anybody who's who'd sat down. with Donald Trump. What was his demeanor. like off camera in the a in the in the. leadup to and the aftermath.

[clears throat] of that interview? Because obviously like any human being. with some modicum of self-awareness. which you know waning though it may be. he has can recognize that that did not. go well for him. So I'm just curious the. leadup to and aftermath of that. interview what that was like. >> So the immediate aftermath he thought. seemed to think it was a good interview. immediately after. >> Yeah. And and then uh.

so I I had we you know a little exchange. afterwards and it seemed like he thought. it was a good interview and obviously. contentious but. >> you know. >> sometimes Trump can sort of [snorts] uh. enjoy the the conflict, right? But afterwards when the coverage started. coming in and when he started to see. just the overwhelming amount of you know. the clips going around and everyone. you know, replaying moments from the.

interview, it was relayed to me that uh. [laughter]. uh the president was not happy. Um and. some strong language was used. Um. and certainly his staff didn't think it. was a home run afterwards. Um so, you. know, I think his view changed when he. consumed the coverage of the interview. more than the interview itself. >> Yeah. I mean, I haven't had an interview. with him since on camera. Uh, the first.

time I'd done a sit down with him was. six years later. Yeah. >> Basically six years later for the book. >> Did he mention anything? >> No. >> Yeah. >> Um, and you know, we don't rely on. authorized access. For Maggie and I, it. makes no difference to us whether we're. allowed in the White House again or not. You know, he's banning organizations and. letting back in. makes absolutely no. difference to us because everything in. this book just about every sensitive. scene, situation room, oval office,

whatever, it's not like we're walking in. the front door of the White House and. you walk up to the press secretary's. office, hey, tell us what happened in. the situation. I mean, do people think. that's how it works? It's not how it. works. Of course, you're cultivating. sources who are not authorized to speak. about things that are happening. And it. makes absolutely no difference to us. whether we have direct access to him or. authorized access um you know from the. press side. On this point of Donald. Trump banning uh various press outlets.

you know this is happening at the same. time that we're seeing obviously this. consolidation between CBS and CNN as. this Paramount Warner Brothers merger. seems to be going through. How are you. thinking about the broader media. ecosystem. and our ability to come back from a. place where it just feels like, because. it's true, a lot of right-wing figures. are consolidating control of all of this. between, you know, Zuckerberg, who's. been very cozy with Trump and and. Republican uh administrations, Jeff.

Bezos, uh obviously David Ellison and uh. and Barry Weiss and and I mean Elon Musk. owning Twitter, you know, the media is. not liberal. Like, at least the folks at. the top of the media are not liberal. And we've already seen that kind of play. itself out with with CBS's coverage. And. uh and who knows what CNN will look like. moving forward, but but just, you know, how are you thinking about this broader. ecosystem moving forward? >> To me, and I'm not, this sounds self-.

serving, but it's just what I think. Um, the New York Times is is sort of a. unicorn in this environment because to. do the type of reporting that Maggie and. I do um particularly the national. security reporting, we need an infrastructure around us. I. couldn't do we couldn't do this type of. reporting as independent journalists on. Substack. I love independent journalism. I support it. I I'm buy I I pay for all.

kinds of substacks. I think there are. great journalists to do it. But the type. of reporting that we do needs an. infrastructure around it because when. you have the president of the United. States um suing you. >> uh when you have them coming after. sources, you need not just uh great. lawyers, you need great digital. security. We have extremely. sophisticated digital security at the. New York Times. And you also need. something else that's really important. which is independence. You need an owner.

and this is what we have at the New York. Times who does not rely on the. government for anything. >> Yeah. >> Ag Sberger doesn't need anything from. the government. Yeah. >> He doesn't need licenses. He has no. business before the government. He's not. in any other industries. This is. everything to the family. Okay. The New. York Times is everything. And so you. don't see AG Saltsberger sucking up to. Trump. You don't see him making. donations to Trump. You don't see him on.

the dis at the inauguration. He does. none of that. Um but he's also not. someone who is pushing anything. ideologically on the journalists. Um I. have never been pushed in an ideological. direction at the New York Times. I've. always been encouraged to follow my. interests, have an open mind, you know, dig in. So that that's why I I work at. the New York Times. And I'm not naive. enough to think that those conditions. are easy to create or they apply across.

the industry cuz the fact of the matter. is journalism is really expensive. The. type of journalism we do, um commentary. is much cheaper, but when you're doing. investigative journalism, it costs so. much money. There's travel involved. There's digging. There's so much time. It's expensive. You're never going to. make it's never going to be a profit. center. it's always subsidized by. something else and it's really hard to. build those businesses. So I'm not naive. enough to say well it's it's just so. easy. It's just a matter of like being. righteous and having you know to create.

that business is really hard and there. was no guarantee the New York Times was. going to survive. You know 15 16 years. ago the New York Times was in a very. precarious place economically and they. managed to build a digital subscription. model and it's worked and they had the. brand and everything else. not so easy. And so, you know, often you do have. businesses where media is just part of. it and they have other things that. require government approval or or. whatever else and it creates problems.

>> Totally. I I speak about this very often. with Mark Elias who I do a show with and. uh. >> and you know. >> we've both recognized how you have these. these major media conglomerates that. seem so big and powerful be expressly. because of their size and how many other. entities they own. But that's also their. Achilles heel. That's that is their. fatal flaw because they can be leveraged. by the government. They always need. something. They need approval for a. merger or an acquisition or or or.

something that will eventually go before. the federal government and they've all. felt um you know felt that pressure at. the hands of this administration which. is why we see so much capitulation at. the hands of of all of these outlets. that otherwise feel you know too big to. fail when when in fact that that's the. very thing that that kind of becomes. their downfall in the end. And and the. thing that distinguishes Donald Trump is. he has shown more aggressively than any. president in recent memory that he's. willing to use the levers of government. explicitly. He wants them to know that.

that he will use the levers of. government to try to force changes in in. these organizations. Now, it's not the. first time a president has done that. LBJ was famous uh for doing that. He did. it a lot more privately behind the. scenes. Um, but in the modern era, the. recent era, we haven't seen anything. like this. in terms of leaks within this. administration and I know that that. that's been a pretty prominent theme. Are there people that you know of. obviously without you know I I presume.

feel free to name names but I presume. that that uh that that isn't going to be. on the table but are are there folks. within this administration who may seem. outwardly like loyalists who are um who. recognize the danger posed by Trump and. some of the folks who are actually. lifers. in terms of the public faces of the. administration. These are people who they may disagree. with Trump on certain decisions. Yeah, for sure. >> But none of them think he's a danger.

Like in the first term, you would have. private conversations and and it seeped. into a lot of the reporting with senior. officials in the Trump White House and. administration who thought he was a. danger and who saw their own job as. protecting the country and the world. from Donald Trump. That is not the case. in this administration at all. Just not. of anyone of any significance and. stature. What do you think would be a red line. for any of these people? Or would there. be no red line for these people? >> No, I mean there have been in some cases.

strong policy disagreements. Um, the most obvious that I think about. because I just thought it was so. striking and surprising to me anyway and. I think to Maggie as well was in the. leadup to the Iran war. JD Vance in. those meetings was really the only one. in in the group meetings with the. president who was arguing against this. operation. What was interesting about. that is JD Vance really has one job.

ahead of 2028 politically, which is to. get Donald Trump's approval and. blessing. And if he gets that, he's. almost impossible to beat him for the. Republican nomination. He what he did in the leadup to the war. really irritated Trump. It did not. endear him to Trump. Trump was. complaining about it to others. privately. He was irritated by he didn't. like to hear it. Um the interesting. thing about that was Vance was not alone. in thinking this war was a bad idea.

Many others on that senior staff were at. a minimum skeptical. But in those meetings, they did not. raise their objections in an aggressive. way or an assertive way with the. president. And that's the difference. between term one and term two. If you. had the team in term one, you would have. had the chairman of the joint chiefs, Mark Millie, saying, "Sir, this is a. terrible idea." You know, very forceful. arguments. You would had economic. arguments. You would have all kinds of. arguments. And it's just such a. different team around him. Um, now that.

um is not it you don't get that kind of. push back. It's very, this episode was. interesting because it was so striking. and unusual and and in almost every. other aspect of policy, Vance is. completely in lock step. And of course, in the Iran war, he's been out there. defending it publicly and and what have. you. So, um that stood out to me as just. a rare example of of a senior official. um coming out. Do you think he gets to. have his cake and eat it too where he.

gets to both claim that he was the lone. skeptic in the room while at the same. time publicly coming out and defending. the exact war that he's trying to claim. credit for opposing? >> Well, he's not. So, it's just a fact he. opposed it in those rooms. Like those. meetings happened. You know, we've. talked to people who don't like Vance. >> But does that matter once you've already. kind of squandered your credibility by. going out and also selling the very. thing that you want credit for opposing? I I don't give him I don't think it m. like I don't think he's going to get. political credit for opposing it. I. don't think this is something that like.

oh in the in the 2028 election in the. general election people like oh well. there were those reports that private. you know like this is not something he's. like going to be able to campaign on. Okay. And by the way the vice president. >> by the way no one's going to get if. Vance is the nominee he's not going to. be campaigning against Trump. Okay. He's. not going to be out there. You know it's. not possible. There's no distance. allowed. It's just a a plain fact, >> which is which is ironic because one of. the biggest uh albatrosses around Kla. Harris's neck was her inability andor. unwillingness to distance herself.

adequately from Joe Biden. Obviously, there was that, you know, that question. on the view that that plagued her. And. Republicans benefited from exactly that. And that's the same trap that they're, you know, going to fall into with the JD. fan situation, but that they're falling. into right now. Like, do you think. Donald Trump is going to be tolerant of. of uh the nominee of his vice president. being out there even if he wanted to? >> Of course, he's not. And and it's not. going to happen. So, so the the credit. thing is kind of irrelevant cuz I don't. think he's going to get any political.

credit for this. It's just a thing that. happened. It's like a fact happened. Um, and I thought it was interesting because. it's one of the only examples I can. think of where it was very a big. decision and there was like really. forceful opposition from a senior inner. circle person. So, the book again is. regime change. Obviously, a behemoth of. of a book. Congratulations on the. monster run that you and Maggie have. had. And uh, for folks who are watching. right now, if you want to read more, I'm. going to put the link to regime change. right here on the screen and also in the.

post description. If you're listening on. the podcast, I'm going to throw it in. the show notes. Jonathan, thanks so much. for taking the time today. >> Thanks for having me, Brian. Appreciate. it. >> To listen to the audio version of this. episode, click the link right here on. the screen and make sure to subscribe. And of course, to see more video. content, that subscribe button's on the. screen as well. [music].