AOC drops NIGHTMARE news for Trump after Supreme Court ruling

Should New York respond in kind by doing. its own redistricting once the amendment. if the amendment passes? Uh. >> I have long felt that we all have to. play by the same set of rules. And the. Republican Caucus has made it very clear. that they want and are setting rules of. partisan gerrymandering. The Democratic. Caucus has tried to pass non-partisan. gerrymandering for 10 years. Republicans. have rejected it. And so, we have to all. abide by the same rules. And so, if.

Republicans are going to redraw North. Carolina, if they're going to redraw. Texas, if they're going to redraw and. gerrymander uh every one of their. states, then unfortunately, we have to. provide balance to that until we get to. the day where we can all finally agree. to put this behind us and pass. non-partisan gerrymandering uh. federally. >> That was AOC speaking out in the. aftermath of the Supreme Court dropping. their Calley decision, effectively. gutting Section 2 of the Voting Rights. Act, which means that the legal. protections for black-majority districts.

are now gone. So, in a state like South. Carolina, for example, where Republicans. are in charge everywhere statewide, the. congressional delegation right now is. seven Republicans and one Democrat. That's Jim Clyburn. And his district is. protected under the Voting Rights Act. Well, now that the VRA is struck down, Republicans in South Carolina can draw. him out of that district and do an. eight-to-nothing gerrymander. And they. can do that in states across the. country, leading to anywhere from one to. two dozen seats flipping from blue to. red. That's a big hit that Democrats are.

going to have to contend with, especially when you add in uh these. mid-cycle redraws. Florida, for example, is passing their gerrymandered map right. now, in addition to North Carolina, Missouri, Ohio, Texas, you name it. And. of course, the census in 2030 is going. to transfer somewhere around a dozen. electoral votes from historically blue. states like California and New York to. historically red states like Texas and. Idaho. So, it's grim. But, if ever there. was an impetus to fight, this is it. Like, AOC put it perfectly when she said.

that we need to keep fighting and that. every state needs to step up, which is. exactly the right posture. We know how. the Republicans fight, so our only. option here, the only one, is to fight. back using every weapon we've got. That. means New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Colorado, Washington, these states need. to step up, recognize the urgency of. this moment, and fight fire with fire. Is it a race to the bottom? Yes, but we. cannot unilaterally disarm. And look, we. have to be clear-eyed about the fact.

that this is a stopgap solution at best. Like, even if we compete and win the. gerrymandering wars, and frankly, even. if we get full control of government. starting in 2029 and manage to pass a. new Voting Rights Act or the Freedom to. Vote Act, there's always going to be a. Supreme Court waiting in the wings to. strike down anything that they don't. like, meaning there are no permanent. solutions so long as this 6-3. conservative court still exists. So, there will come a day when Democrats. have full control of government, and for. that, I will fight with everything I've.

got. And we need to come to accept the. fact that when we get to that point, we. have to take big swings to make sure. that we're never in this position again. In practice, that looks like expanding. the Supreme Court, and I write about. this in my upcoming book The Day After. Here's an excerpt, quote, "To restore. democracy, to restore integrity to the. judicial system, we urgently need to. reform the Supreme Court. Those reforms. need to be based on principle, not. politics, to have any legitimacy or. public support. The first order of a. filibuster-free Congress should be.

reform of the Supreme Court, not the. second or the third or the fourth, or it. will be too late to save the Republic. and our independent judiciary. If any. subsequent reforms are to stand a chance. of surviving, we cannot leave in place a. rogue branch of government with the. power to strike down anything that. doesn't comport with its far-right. ideology. The first reform should be to. expand the court in line with the. principles that determine the number of. justices in the early years of the. republic, the first Supreme Court had. six justices reflecting the six federal. court circuits. The court grew to seven.

justices in 1807 after a seventh circuit. was added. It grew again to nine after. two new circuits were added in 1837. Today, there are 13 federal court. circuits, but only nine Supreme Court. justices. The court should reflect the. size of the country and the scope of its. legal challenges as it did more than a. century ago. Now, the whole point of. that book, The Day After, is to offer a. blueprint for what Democrats need to do. with their power once they get it back. So, I hope you'll support that message. and I I hope that you'll support this. work by pre-ordering in the link that.

I'm going to put right here on the. screen and also in the post description. and in the comments of this video. So, if you want to join me for my book tour. as well, uh the dates and tickets are. also available at the same link. Um you. can go ahead and click that. I really. appreciate it. But, look, that's what. needs to happen and we have to normalize. this idea now so that when we have. power, we don't waste our time. negotiating, but rather spend that time. actually doing. We have spent so much. time, spilled so much ink talking about. how Democrats need to fight. This is how.

we do it. The era of strongly worded. letters is over. Now, we have to fight. like democracy depends on it because. clearly it does. You're watching the No. Lie podcast. Next up are my interviews. with Robert Garcia, Tommy Vietor, and. Kyle Kondik. No Lie is brought to you by. BetterHelp. Financial stress affects far. more than our bank accounts. It also. takes a serious toll on our mental. health and relationships. Right now, 88%. of Americans feel some form of financial. stress. Money worries often bring. anxiety, sleep disruption, and.

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every single shipment. That's. shipstation.com code BTC. shipstation.com code BTC. I'm joined now. by the ranking member of the House. Oversight Committee, Robert Garcia. Congressman, thanks so much for joining. me. We have a major update here with all. eyes on Pam Bondi because this April. 14th sworn deposition for the Oversight. Committee came and went. She didn't. appear. You made an announcement this. morning that you were moving forward. with the contempt resolution, and then. suddenly we had an update. Can you. explain what that was?

>> Yeah, look, she obviously missed her. date her date 2 weeks ago, right? So, she was up to come in. have her deposition in place. It was. under subpoena, bipartisan. She missed. this date, and so since that date, we. have been warning Pam Bondi and Chairman. Comer that we were going to file. contempt charges. And if we did not hear. we reached out to the DOJ, we reached. out to Pam Bondi and her counsel. directly. We've been talking to. Oversight Republicans. Nothing. No. information. And so, this morning, just. like we promised, we filed contempt. charges in the House, and.

you know, ironically enough, 45 minutes. later after we filed those charges, James Comer announces we now have a date. that's been rescheduled with Pam Bondi. And so, clearly they folded. I'm glad. that we actually finally have a date. It's we've got to ask these questions. Pam Bondi has a lot to answer for, and. I'm glad that James Comer finally set a. new date. >> What do you presume happened behind the. scenes? Do you think that this date. already existed and was being.

was being, you know, hammered out. between Pam Bondi and James Comer or the. Oversight Republicans or do you think. that they saw that you basically called. their bluff and were like, "Okay, what. what day works for you? April 29th? Great. Let's put it on the books." and. then pretend of course like that that. was going to be the case all along. >> Yeah, I mean, we don't know, right? I. mean, what we do know is we had had zero. information or communication. We had. sent Comer a letter asking if there had. been any progress on setting the date, nothing. We'd called, talked to James.

Comer's staff, no response. We reached. out to Pam Bondi, to the DOJ, nothing. And so, as of this morning, by the time we had. filed those contempt charges, we had had. zero communication or information about. rescheduling that deposition. And so, the fact that 45 minutes later they came. up with this date, whether they had. already been working on that date or. whether they came up with it on the. spot, uh we'll never know because they. weren't communicating with us. What. matters is we finally got a date and. that we pushed and got the Republicans.

to actually do the right thing. And I. think, you know, I've said from day one, we have to be in the fight. If we're. willing to fight and push hard, we're. going to get good results. >> So, we've heard this announcement from. uh DOJ or Pam Bondi's team that it's. going to be May 29th, but have you. gotten official word? And I ask that. because right now you have, you know, the the contempt resolution that's. filed. And so, that's going to move. forward and we've seen, you know, this. wouldn't be the first time if Pam Bondi. decided to play some games. Um this.

wouldn't be the first time that, you. know, the Republicans will have screwed. around. And so, is this contempt. resolution going to remain in place and. presumably moving forward um while you. wait for any official correspondence. here? >> It is. We're not removing the contempt. resolution. Uh it's it's been filed in. in in the US House. And now we have a. date, and so, I don't expect there to be. any a vote or this get taken up uh until. we see if she actually appears. And if. she doesn't appear on her scheduled.

date, then I think that this obviously. gets elevated and I think it'll. really cause a lot of issues for. Republicans. She needs to come for her deposition. It. was a bipartisan vote through a. subpoena. And so, I'm glad that we have. this date, but it's just unfortunate. that we have to fight so damn hard for. them to do the right thing. But we're. going to continue to do so to get. justice for the survivors. >> So, the Assistant Attorney General, Harmeet Dhillon, had come on to Twitter. and replied to a tweet that Oversight.

Democrats posted where where you all. laid out that that Pam Bondi was going. to contend with these contempt charges. And Harmeet Dhillon said, "Fake news. Why lie, Oversight Dems? You know that. Pam Bondi through counsel agreed to a. specific date your committee counsel. proposed for a transcribed interview. earlier this week. Be better. Cheap. stunts like this are a waste of time and. space." Now, we've already spoken about. the fact that, you know, there was no date that was given to the. Oversight Democrats. This is just, you. know, this is basically just make-believe to.

make themselves look better in. retrospect. But why do you presume that. Harmeet Dhillon, on behalf of the DOJ, is out here advocating for Pam Bondi. when just a few weeks back the whole. point of of this effort to try and. claim that Pam Bondi didn't need to be. there was because she's no longer at the. DOJ and so as she so she can no longer. speak for what's happening at the. federal government. And yet now you have. DOJ officials who are speaking on behalf. of Pam Bondi and fighting her battles. for her.

>> Well, I think what's incredibly bizarre. is the DOJ continues to essentially be a. mouthpiece for Pam Bondi and its. officials. She doesn't work there. anymore. The DOJ has said that their. position is that Pam Bondi doesn't need. to appear and now where where they're. pushing back and and calling us liars. I. mean, that's that's a joke. I I want to. see the correspondence. I want to see. the the email or the letter where they. told us the date. They they didn't They. didn't share anything with us. And so. they were communicating with Chairman. Comer. He had been keeping us in the.

dark. And so look, we're we're going to. we're not going to sit around and just. take their word for it. I think at the. end of the day we need her to show up. We're going to keep that contempt. resolution filed. Pam Bondi. hasn't released 50% of the files. And. now Todd Blanche is doing the same. thing. She docked survivors. She put. them in danger. Why were Ghislaine. Maxwell given so much special treatment. and so many others then get exposed in. the files and the personal information. put up. I mean, just the the. haphazard nature of the way they've.

treated this whole thing. It's it's got. to be investigated. And so we we look. forward to her coming in. We have a lot. of questions for her. I think she's. going to she's going to face a very very. aggressive and committed group of. Democrats to get the truth. >> And and that's the part I want to dig. into here because, you know, while I. think all of the mechanics surrounding, you know, the will she won't she come. are certainly interesting, the the. important part of all of this is what's. going to happen once she appears. And so. can you talk about why it's so important. to get Pam Bondi in front of the.

Oversight Committee for a sworn. deposition? >> Yeah, I mean, look, first this is the. same attorney general that said the. binders were on her desk. I mean, she. started off by creating this whole. bizarre influence like mega influencer. event early on. saying that the files were released. They weren't. Uh then she said that it. was a hoax and followed along with. President President Trump was saying. that wasn't true. Then they tried to. hide the files if the file the subpoena. I mean, over and over again this has. been just a constant cover-up at the.

highest levels. We need to ask. questions. Who. was the person that actually mandated. the move for Ghislaine Maxwell? Who did. that? We we still don't know. Well, I. bet you she does. And so she's going to. be asked that question. Why are 50% of. the files. still not presented? She needs to answer. those questions. So that's that's what. we expect to happen out of this. deposition. >> Is there a world where she could just. plead the fifth? I mean, I know this. isn't a criminal proceeding, but does.

she have to answer questions that are. posed to her? >> Look, I mean, anyone that's that's. answering questions could try to plead. the fifth on different matters, but she. really has no standing to do so. And. she's certainly not in the executive. branch anymore. And so, we expect her to. testify. and try to answer these questions. We. also. expect that we're going to have a lot of. outreach from survivors and survivor. groups that are representing a lot of. these women that are going to also have. questions. And then, they're already. asking publicly under And I know many of.

them wanted her to actually come in to. be deposed, and I'm glad we're able to. do so. >> But does she have the legal right to. assert the fifth? >> I don't believe I look I think every. person has. a legal the legal right to try to plead. the fifth. But you have to it's really backed up by. some type of reasoning. I'm not sure. that she has a lot of that that she can. actually legally plead the fifth for. >> Okay. And in terms of the broader goal. here, which is to get accountability for. those who've participated in these. heinous crimes that were being. perpetuated at the top by by Epstein and.

Maxwell, I mean, is there anything to. compel, even though. Pam Bondi's gone, to compel Todd Blanche. to comply with the rest of with the rest. of this law? I mean, I had spoken with. with Ro Khanna a few weeks back, and he. he mentioned that between him and Thomas. Massie there is talk of amending the. Epstein files transparency act to. actually put put forward something with. teeth to compel the release of some of. these files, given the fact that, you. know, right now there's there's really. nothing compelling its release. And so,

I'm just curious as this process. continues to play out, at least while we. have a Republican DOJ, um I I presume. we're not going to see much movement, but is there anything to compel the the. the the release of these files? >> What's been incredibly effective in the. past has been public pressure, has been. pressured by the Congress, has been. Republicans joining us in bipartisan. efforts. And so, we're going to continue. to push Todd Blanche. We're going to. continue to try to get the rest of those. files. There are now multiple.

investigations from the Inspector. General and. other offices within the government. looking at at the way they have actually. released the files. And so, we are going. to get those files. They should do the. right thing and release them now, but we. are we are in this investigation. They. have to understand the truth is going to. come out. And we expect the DOJ to do. their job and actually criminally. prosecute the men that actually were. involved in the abuse of these women and. girls. >> If we get to a point where this DOJ. simply won't do it, but we're lucky. enough to be in a situation in 2029.

where Democrats take over. the White House and they have access to. this stuff, is there a world where any. DOJ officials who are complicit in the. suppression of these files and in. violating the Epstein file transparency. act could be held accountable for their. for their actions here? >> I mean, absolutely. We are in the. majority have an immense amount of power. and ability to hold people accountable. and to investigate and to get more. documents and subpoena power and um.

compel folks to testify. So, I think. Look, I I tell people all the time if. you think we're able to do a lot in the. minority, just wait till we get into the. majority. >> Okay. >> It's going to be a real game-changer. >> And finally, last thing I want to talk. about here, different topic. We've all. seen the voting rights decision handed. down by the Supreme Court. In light of the fact, and I don't know. if many people know this, but when. California redrew its maps, I know it's. very difficult to get members of. Congress or any elected officials to to. to.

basically give up their own voters in in. these districts. And that's exactly what. you did. Your district went from an. extraordinarily blue district to a. redder district because you were willing. to give up. some voters in your district to make a. map that would counteract what. Republicans were doing in Texas even. possible. And so in light of what we're. seeing right now where we could see, you. know, a wave of 12 to even 20 seats flip. as the result of the Calay decision, what would be your message to other.

Democrats in other states where we've. not exercised our ability to fight back. I'm talking New York, New Jersey, Colorado, Washington in light of the. fact that you know, not only are. Republicans gerrymandering their maps. mid-cycle anyway, but we're also going. to see that because of the Calay. decision a bunch of redrawn maps where. they eliminate these black opportunity. districts. And so what would your. message be from someone who has been. willing to seed a lot of Democratic. voters to other states and other.

legislators, whoever it may be, to try. to again fight fire with fire. >> I think every state is going to have to. be willing to fight harder. I think what. California did was the right thing. Look, the VRA decision is incredibly. disappointing. It's It's disheartening. Representation especially for. communities that historically have been. able to elect black members, Latino. members to Congress. I think it's really. a shame when when you look at what. representation means for this country. I. believe in the VRA. And so if they're.

going to take this step with allies on. the court, we're going to have to double. down on states. that we can now unlock more Democrats. and more voters and really fight fire. with fire. It's what we did what we did. in California. We're going to we may. have to do more. And other states are. going to have to do more as well. So I. think it's all going to be a part of our. conversations over the next few weeks. and months. >> We'll leave it there. Congressman, as. always, thanks for the time. >> If anybody knows anything about. crime, they know 86. You know what 86 is? It's. a mob term.

for kill him. You know? You ever seen. the movies? 86 him. People like Comey. have created tremendous danger, I think, for. politicians and others. He, you know, Comey is a dirty cop. He's a very dirty. cop. Uh, he cheated on the elections. He. tried to help Hillary Clinton, as you. know. He dismissed a lot of things that. he should have proceeded with. >> I'm joined now by the co-host of Pod. Save America, Tommy Vietor. Tommy, that. was Trump um justifying or trying to.

justify his administration's indictment, second indictment now, of James Comey in. this interminable effort to prosecute. his political enemy. So, first off, how. convincing do you think his uh his whole. excuse for this indictment was? >> I I I think we could see the fear in his. eyes there. I think he was shaking. Uh, he was quivering. Uh, this is a man who. saw his life flash before his eyes in. the form of some seashells on an. Instagram post. >> One One might even say that he's. shell-shocked from this whole situation.

>> seem shell-shocked. Um, I think that it's on us to take this. seriously. Violence is never acceptable. And No, the the whole thing is absurd. Trump couldn't even pretend there that. he really thought James Comey was. planning to kill him by posting a photo. of some shells that he didn't even. arrange himself. He just stumbled upon. It This is so stupid. He clearly is just. trying to ruin this guy's life and get. him charged a bunch of lawyers' fees and. stuff him in court and create anxiety. And it's pretty effective so far. >> Yeah, it's effective. I mean, look, this.

is, you know, it would be bad enough if. this was happening in a vacuum, but even. worse given the fact that for the. entirety of the Biden era, I mean, Republicans literally created a. subcommittee on the weaponization of. government. >> Yeah. >> Like, this was a thing they pretended to. care about. And so, they don't actually. dislike weaponized government. They just. don't like when the other side. >> point the weapon the right way. >> Yeah, they they they they want to be. able to weaponize government, but they. only want to be able to do it. unilaterally unto themselves. >> is so infuriating. Like, look, I think. uh I think Hunter Biden's kind of a.

scummy guy who traded on his father's. name and got contracts that he wasn't. qualified to have from companies like. Burisma, whatever, right? Fair. But then like I was watching last. week a clip on Fox News of Eric Trump. getting congratulated by Maria Bartiromo. for getting a $24 million Pentagon. contract for his new drone like robotics. company. It's like, I'm sorry. You think. this is on the level? Come on. >> Yeah. How do you think about that? Because because we are in a post-shame, post-truth, post-hypocrisy world. And.

so, you know, you have a media company, um I I have obviously all of my my. channels, and and both of us are. especially focused on on combating and. confronting right-wing disinformation. and the and the shame and hypocrisy that. they that they exhibit, but like but. like how do you how do you how do you. fight back against this when you have. like Maria Bartiromo literally. congratulating congratulating Eric Trump. for being able to like successfully. pilfer the government? >> Yeah, congrats on looting the Pentagon. budget. >> Yeah, and I mean like Trump is engaged.

in a lawsuit where he's literally. suing his own IRS and just picking out a. number, you know, out of a house so that. he can pay himself billions of dollars. I believe it's a $10 billion lawsuit. >> Yeah, he's you know, could be more. I. think he or he deserves more, honestly. >> how do you how do you think about that? >> think about it by like the hypocrisy. part, no one gives a about. hypocrisy. Like no one can't defend. Hunter Biden or care. I think calling. out the corruption is the way you go for. it. Like I think Maria Bartiromo. actually kind of did us a favor by being. so embarrassing in that clip and like.

just so fundamentally not doing her job. as a journalist in that moment. Like you. don't say congratulations to anyone for. a Pentagon contract. >> Congratulations to the son of the. president for pilfering the pilfering. the Defense Department budget. >> we doing here? So, yeah, look, I I think. there's a a lot of lessons learned about. beating authoritarians, and one way you. do it is by highlighting corruption like. this. >> Yeah. And Tommy, I think it's it's. important to note that like as we're. talking about the corruption that we're. seeing right now, it it's also kind of. ingrained in in every different level of.

government. We saw at the Supreme Court. just today with the with the Calay. decision. So, basically the way that. this works is the Supreme Court was. hearing a case, Louisiana versus Calay, that was that was ultimately. where ultimately the Supreme Court. justices wanted to hear specifically. about Section 2 of the Voting Rights. Act. They ultimately ruled to gut. Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. along ideological lines, 6-3, that would. eliminate any. mandate for a minority opportunity.

district. So, a black opportunity. district, brown opportunity district, whatever it may be. And so, even in. these states like South Carolina where. we have Jim Clyburn, for example, you know, this is a district that's. protected constitutionally because. otherwise, full Republican control of. that state, they would draw that. district out. Well, now they can. Now. there's no protection for these for. these black opportunity districts, minority opportunity districts. Um and. so, in light of that, what would be your. advice to other Democrats where we. haven't seen um where we haven't seen. them flex their muscles yet. Like we we.

have for all this talk, we actually. haven't seen a ton of movement on the. left. We saw Gavin Newsom and California. Democrats do it in California where we. are. We saw um. Abigail Spanberger, State Senate. President Louise Lucas, and the Virginia. Democrats do it in Virginia. We saw a. court decision go away in Utah, but. otherwise, you know, Republicans just. did it in Florida. Um obviously, Republicans did it in Texas, in. Missouri, in North Carolina, in Ohio. And so, you know,

there are still a lot of weapons that. have yet to be wielded on the Democratic. side, New Jersey, New York, Colorado, Washington. What's your message to these. Democrats out there in light of what we. saw today? >> Yeah, look, I think in the short term, we got to win the midterms by as much as. humanly possible. Once we do win, we. need to use subpoena power as. aggressively as possible to get more. information about these corruption. stories and lift them up and highlight. them. I think in the short term, I do think. that we need governors and state. legislators to threaten to gerrymander. in kind.

>> Yeah. >> Um as much as I hate it, like I'd prefer. not to be doing this, but I think it's. it's necessary in the short term. >> exists to pass national legislation. banning partisan gerrymandering. >> Yeah, and then long term I do think like. there has to be a huge reform agenda as. part of the Democratic platform in 2028. and beyond because. voters. hate everyone right now. The The Gallup. did it an approval rating. They asked. people what they they. Gallup asked people their approval of. Congress and it the approval rating of. the institution was 10%. Pretty bad. >> Yeah.

>> Pretty bad. Um and so people hate. Congress, they hate the institutions, they think the system is broken, they. think it's rigged, and there has to be a. big reform package that includes. anti-gerrymandering, that includes. getting money out of politics, that. includes term limits of some sort. Like. we also Democrats have a gerontocracy. problem. So we need to think about like. what How do we present to voters a real. vision that shows we are different and. better than the other guys without uh. you know, just like waving the white. flag in the short term. >> Do you think it's a good idea to run on.

the idea of expanding the court? And I. ask that because even if Democrats are. fortunate enough to take the House, the. Senate, and the White House at some. point, which already is is a is a pretty. heavy lift, the Supreme Court has showed. us today that they're there as kind of a. backstop to push back against any voting. rights legislation that even unified. control of government by Democrats could. push through. Like this Voting Rights. Act was bipartisan legislation that. existed for. >> decades. >> 60.

you know, almost 60 years, 1965. Yeah. Um and and the last time it was it was. like you know, ratified or codified, it. was 98 to nothing in the Senate and then. signed by George W. Bush. So like this. is this is a long-standing um uh. legislation. So, like even if we pass another iteration. of the Voting Rights Act, we now know. that the Supreme Court is just going to. be there to act as an obstacle um to. allowing it to stay. And so, you know,

sure, you can you can do like these. scattershot laws, and then they get. blocked by the Supreme Court, and you. just kind of go back and forth, but. that's just tinkering around the edges. Like, does does fundamental change at. the Supreme Court level need to need to. take place in order to actually um. entrench these these solutions that. we're seeking to pass? >> I think like the court expansion. probably needs to be part of the agenda. I don't know that I run on it. Like, I I. don't know that it's like a particularly. popular thing. It's sort of just. polarizing. I think both sides like it. when their team talks about doing it,

dislike it when the others, but I do. think it's got to be a part of a part of. the agenda. And yeah, I mean, look, we're going on. um we're now several decades into this. very determined, well-funded, well-organized project by the. Republicans to fill the courts with. ideologues. It's like Leonard Leo and. the Federalist Society and all these. groups just not thinking for one second. about people who really understand the. law. It's like, how can we shove the. biggest number of like right-wing.

partisan actors into judicial slots? And. Democrats need to figure out a way to. counteract that and fight back. It's. just going to be It's like a. generational project at this point. >> Do you think they get it? Like, do you. think that. the fight mentality, not the strongly. worded letter, but like a true fight. mentality is actually settled in? >> I think they get it, but it's like it. becomes just a question of time. management and all the other crises you. going on, right? Like, the next Democrat. might inherit some sort of financial. crisis or something, right? And it's.

like making sure they still prioritize, okay, we need to get these judges vetted. and through the system and votes and get. rid of the filibuster or anything that. will block them. Like, that I think is. the key. It's just like, determination. to do it. >> Yeah. >> But, Brian, like in the near term, you. know, Trump in in the in the Oval Office. today was basically saying like, he. wants to see a bunch of Republican. states redistrict right now, start. redrawing the maps. I mean, how worried. are you about this impacting the. midterms? >> I'm not worried about it impacting the. midterms. They don't have much time to.

be able to do it. The only state that. I'm worried about right now is is. Florida, and we are in the midst, I. mean, by the time everybody's watching. and listening to this, Ron DeSantis may. very well have already signs the new. gerrymander into law. But, otherwise, you know, there already primaries taking. place, so I'm not really worried at this. point. I'm I'm actually We we did catch. something of a break recognizing that. Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act was. going to be gutted anyway. I don't think. there was anybody. >> Yeah. >> who thought that this thing um had had a. had a shot. Um we got lucky that it.

didn't pass that that this ruling didn't. come down in January or February. >> months ago, yeah. >> Yeah, because then everybody would've. been been able to redraw their maps, and. we would've seen, you know, 12 to 20. seats already that would've been, you. know, gone. >> So, we caught a little bit of a break. I. think midterms are basically priced in, I think, in terms of the redistricting. wars. It's pretty much a wash at this point. Um so, you know, what I'm looking at. really is is how this impacts 2028 and. beyond. And remember, it's not just. these these mid-cycle redraws that we're.

seeing right now. And Republicans still. do have weapons. We still um do have to. see, you know, this Florida map signed. into law. We still have to see. uh a bunch of Republican states that. have the opportunity to do so. Indiana. might come back and do something. Ohio. has the opportunity to to um you know, do a a a harder gerrymander than the one. that they have right now. But, remember, we have um the census coming in 2030, and we could see California lose, you. know, four or five seats. We could see. New York lose seats. We could see um.

Arizona, Nevada, Washington lose seats. New Jer- uh New York, Pennsylvania lose. seats. And the states that are going to. gain them are probably going to be, you. know, Texas, Florida, and a bunch of. Sunbelt states that that. disproportionately vote for Republicans. And so, you know, all of those things. combined, yeah, they they worry me. And. um that's why it's incumbent on on. Democrats to A, fight everywhere, because if we win these state. legislatures, that could be the bulwark. against a Republican legislature passing.

a new gerrymandered map. Um and and. giving support to these lawyers who are. fighting these fights. I speak to Mark. Elias almost every single day uh on on. on this channel. And uh you know, Norm. Eisen and and all of these other. attorneys who are doing this work. But. yeah, it's going to be a slog for the. next few years. And uh and that's why. it's absolutely incumbent to make sure. that we can get Democratic majorities. and pass nationwide legislation to ban. partisan gerrymandering once and for. all. And give the opportunity for some.

of these Republicans who've been. clutching their pearls, pretending like. that they're these uh white knights for. for democracy, to vote for it if they. actually don't want to see. gerrymandering like they're saying, only. after every Democratic state does it. >> You were saying you want you think we. need to like 86 the court? Is that what. you're saying before? >> We got We got to end this. We got to 86. this video right here. >> With shells. >> With shells, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> We have to make No, we You said we need. to make the court beautiful necklaces. with shells of numbers, like 86,

hypothetically. >> I I. don't legally speaking, I. cannot affirm or deny. >> Yeah, [laughter] yeah. I'm just For the record, I am just. kidding, because this shell thing with. Comey is so stupid. Cut to indictment. >> Yeah. Well, look, I think that's a a. good a good way to. a good place to I think that's a good. legally speaking, I think that's a great. place to end. Highly recommend for those. who are watching right now, please help. build out this progressive media. ecosystem. We need as many voices in. this ecosystem as humanly possible,

especially as Republicans continue to. consolidate control electorally speaking. in the media space, whatever it may be. So, um a small step everybody watching. can take is to subscribe to Pod Save. America's YouTube channel. If you're. listening on the podcast, subscribe on. the podcast. I'm going to put those. links on the screen, in the post. description, in the show notes, wherever. you're listening, you'll be able to find. it. Tommy. >> Oh, man. >> As always, thanks so much for taking the. time. >> Thanks. >> I'm joined now by Kyle Kondik, managing. editor of Sabato's Crystal Ball at the. University of Virginia Center for. Politics. Kyle, thanks so much for.

taking the time. I I want to talk to you. about this new map that was released by. uh Florida Republicans. This is. obviously a gerrymander to counteract. what uh Democrats were just able to pass. out of Virginia, that 10-1 map. So, I. got to ask first and foremost, um can we. talk about the legality of this move? Because there is a a uh constitutional. amendment um in place in Florida that. would ban partisan gerrymandering. That. seems to be exactly what this new map. would would require in order to pass it.

And so, would this pass legal muster? >> It's a great question. I mean, I think. you could look at the map and say, "Hey, this obviously is a is a Republican. gerrymander." You know, the previous. map, I think you could argue that, too, although I think it's a clearer argument. here. But, uh whether the Florida. Supreme Court would actually enforce. that is is a completely open question. Uh Governor DeSantis has made, I think, six of the seven appointments to the uh. to the Florida Supreme Court. It's a. conservative court. It seemed like they. might rule against at least portions of. the pro-Republican map that passed in. 2022. They declined to do so.

And in some ways, what's going on here. is that the DeSantis administration is. kind of taking this Fair Districts. Amendment that voters approved about 15. years ago, kind of head-on, saying that. basically there are portions of the. what's called the Fair Districts. Amendment that um don't stand stand up. to constitutional scrutiny, and that. there were protections in it for. basically for majority-minority. districts that again don't pass legal. muster. And so, they say the whole thing. is obsolete. Again, I'm I lawyer. I I. don't know what you know what this court. is ultimately going to decide. There are.

legal hurdles to to jump here though for. Republicans. I kind of feel like. Governor DeSantis is is sort of taking. them head on in this in this proposal. >> Well, I mean this feels like a more. egregious gerrymander than even the one. that DeSantis himself pushed forward. against the wishes of the Republican. legislature. Like the the existing map. is the gerrymander that that that really. was just Ron DeSantis's pet project. Like the Republican legislature had a. less egregious gerrymander. DeSantis, you know, as part of his whole political.

platform, wanted to be more aggressive. They got that passed. This takes that to. even a new level. And so I'm just I'm. just wondering here, is it possible for. the opponents of this map to come in and. say even if the. you know Republican. state Supreme Court in Florida wasn't. willing to take a look at or block the. existing Republican map, this one is. even more egregious than that one. >> Yeah, look, I think you certainly could. make that argument. Certainly it would. It seems like it would it would produce.

an even more lopsided Republican House. delegation. It's 20 to 8 Republican. right now. If this map performs as. intended, it would go up to 24 to 4. Now, I think there are reasons why it. might not perform as intended in in in. the context of 2026, which should be a. much. bluer or at least less red year in. Florida than than 2022 and and certainly. 2024 were. But again, you and I can. could talk about that and and think that. it's an obvious argument, but it may not. be an obvious argument to the to the to.

the Florida Supreme Court. Another thing. here is what does the US Supreme Court. do with this Calle decision on. Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and. basically whether majority minority. districts are essentially protected, you know, and and this the the letter. from Ron DeSantis's legal counsel that. accompanied this proposal today kind of. suggested that that you know Republicans. are going to get their way on Cali. The. decision hasn't come out yet. I think. DeSantis was hoping that the decision. would come out would have come out come.

out by now. That's part of the reason. why he pushed this back all the way till. late April. We don't have that decision. We don't know what it's going to say. It. may be that Sam Alito is writing that. decision. Um it may be that Sam Alito. gives Republicans everything they want. Um but if if Cali isn't decided in favor. of Republicans, it may also be the case. that this map doesn't yet stand up to. federal scrutiny on racial redistricting. lines either. So, again, lots of open. questions legally about this map. >> Okay, so you alluded to the political. implications here. Is there a world.

where this proposed gerrymander could. actually turn into a dummymander because. the lines are are you know the districts. are drawn too thin where the the margins. are you know if you if you bring a you. know an R+ 15 district down to an R+ 5. uh in a in a an election year where. Democrats are overperforming by you know. 10, 12, 14 points. Do you think there's a world in which we. could see this backfire? >> I think in order for it to be a. quote-unquote dummymander, um. Republicans would have to come out of.

2026 with fewer than 20 seats, which is. what they have now. And they're 20. fairly durable seats. And I'd also say. that you know there are a few uh. districts on the current map and also. the proposed map of Maria Salazar in. Florida 27, Cory Mills in Florida 7. who's got a lot of lot of scandals and. problems of his own. You know, it's possible that they might. have lost under the old map. Um the new. map didn't really change their districts. all that much. So, if they lose, you. can't really blame the the map for for. the reason why that would happen. It.

would be as part of kind of a a mega. Democratic wave. So, I this reminds me a. lot of what happened in Texas in that in. you know in Texas Republicans wanted to. gain up to five new seats based on their. new map. They may or may not be able to. do that, but I don't think they're going. to come out of this election with fewer. districts than they had before they drew. the map. It's just a question of how. well does this map perform for. Republicans. That's true in Texas, I. think it's truer in Florida, too. >> You know, there was a lot of reporting. that even Florida Republicans, uh folks. who are, you know, the the the elected.

officials who would be impacted by these. maps, were pushing back against the idea. of engaging in the special legislative. session to be able uh to pass these new. maps. Um can you just speak on that idea. and whether um whether you think that. that was uh taken into account here? >> I don't know if it was taken into. account and in fact this process was so. secretive that even the state. legislature, which is ostensibly in. charge of this process, I mean, they. basically just outsourced things to the. governor. The governor's office seemed. to, you know, produce this map. It. showed up on Monday. Um it looks like.

the legislature is is going to. rubber-stamp it over the next couple of. days. Maybe they won't. I It's possible. that they could they could push back on. it, but um this has really been driven. by by the governor's office and. presumably the White House has been. you know, probably knows something about. it, but again, there's there's not. really been anything publicly um said. about it. You know, you think of. redistricting as being sort of a. publicly deliberative process. It really. wasn't in the sense of that. Look, when. the you know, when the Virginia. Democratic gerrymander emerged a few. months ago, that was also something that.

that, you know, I think was sort of. dictated by the state legislature. It is. fair to so to say though that the the. the the map came out of then the public. voted on it. So, there there was a sort. of a public public deliberation in that. regard. There really hasn't been. uh in in Florida. And you know, the. members themselves, you know, most. members will never want to see their. district change unless they are getting. uh you know, a better district for for. themselves. Um but the members, I mean, look, the state legislature doesn't seem. to have much power here, let alone the. members who don't really have a formal.

say even though, you know, they're the. ones who represent uh Florida in the US. House of Representatives. >> Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's also. worth noting that in both Democratic. weapons here in this redistricting war, um both California and Virginia, both of. those went to the voters. In every. instance where the Republicans pushed. this through, whether we're talking. Texas, Ohio, North Carolina, Missouri, Florida, those are going to be. done by fiat, by by folks in charge. where the voters never have a say in the. matter. So, I think that's just like. something that's pretty telling in in.

this entire process. I did see some. polling today that if they did put this. to the voters that it wouldn't pass in. Florida, which is why I I presume it's. being done in the way that it is. Um. >> Well, part of you know, part of the. reason why California and Virginia went. to the voters is because they basically. had to in order to get around the. the redistricting commissions that were. written into the constitution. Now, if. Florida actually did want to do away. with the fair districts amendment and go. to the voters, you need to amend the. constitution in Florida, it actually. takes 60% of the vote. Um which is what.

this you know, which is what the. amendment got. I think it was back in in. 2010. Um now, what the the DeSantis. administration seems to be arguing is is. that even though the voters approved. this back in 2010, that it's not. operative anymore because of you know, basically of Florida Supreme Court. decision recently that kind of pushed. back on on some aspects of it having to. do with racial racial redistricting. >> Well, look on on that point, like you. if you're Ron DeSantis and you have a. Supreme Court that doesn't really care. what the Florida Constitution says, if.

you have um. you know, these instances where. where judges or state officials don't. even want to take into account what the. law is supposed to be, then like you. don't have to worry about thresholds, you don't have to worry about anything. because you've got these people in in. Ron DeSantis's pocket who are just going. to rule by fiat anyway. >> Well, look, I mean, part of the story since Ron DeSantis ran. for president was that you know, he was. such a powerful governor of Florida. particularly in his first term. I mean, his his ability to get the you know, the.

first map done in in 2022 I think was an. example of his power. I think there's. been some thought that maybe his power. is waning. He's a you know, he's a lame. duck governor. He's going to be out of. office starting next year. But this is. another real power play from DeSantis. because he's trying to essentially not. only dictate this map to the state. legislature controlled by Republicans, but also suggesting to the Florida. Supreme Court that they should. essentially go along with the map and. also maybe even decide that the Fair. Districts Amendment isn't you know, isn't isn't operative anymore or at.

least isn't doesn't have any teeth. So. it is a real power play. Again, we'll. we'll see if it actually if it actually. works or not. >> Can you talk about if Florida. Republicans are successful in pushing. this through, what the net sum of these. redistricting wars is going to look. like? >> So there's a way of looking at it. So we. have we've got eight states now who are. have redistricted or attempting to. redistrict and you sort of look at them. in groups. So it's California versus. Texas last year. Texas is trying to add.

five new Republican seats. California is. trying to add five new Democratic seats. California also shored up a few current. Democratic seats which I think you have. to kind of keep in mind when you're. doing the arithmetic here. So I think California was a little bit. better for Democrats than than Texas was. for Republicans, but they're kind of. similar. Virginia trying to add four new. Democratic seats. Florida trying to add. four new Republican seats. In some ways. maybe they canceled themselves out. although you know, there are legal. questions about both and you know, we. got to see how they perform in the. elections. Ohio was not really a.

Republican gerrymander although it was a. certainly it's a it's a it's a. pro-Republican map than which you'd. expect to be a neutral map to be. Maybe. Republicans get a seat or two out of. Ohio although I don't think anything is. really guaranteed there. Utah. court-drawn map. plus one Democratic. Maybe you could say. Ohio and you know, and Utah maybe. canceled themselves out and then you've. got Missouri and North Carolina, you. know, an additional Republican seat a. piece. The Missouri map might get thrown. out by the courts because of a you know,

or might be basically put on pause by a. referendum. I think if all of these maps. come through, it's kind of a wash. And. And again, it'll sort of depend on what. the results are. Now, if, you know, Virginia succeeds and Florida fails, or. Florida fails and Virginia or if Florida. succeeds and Virginia fails, then maybe. one, you know, the the the one side gets. a clear advantage over the other. But, I. think the bottom line here is that. things have not changed enough to, uh, you know, to to change to change the. idea that that Democrats are favored to.

take the House. I think they've been. favored basically the whole time this. cycle. I think they continue to be and, you know, we'll just see where how. redistricting ultimately ends up. resolving here. >> Well, you had mentioned before the. Calais case, and we don't only have, uh, the Calais case that's coming down the. pike. We also have, you know, the 2030. census, which is going to take a bunch. of electoral seats away from. historically blue states and put them, uh, put them in in historically red. states. And so, with that, you know, um, on the horizon here, and with a bunch of Democratic weapons.

still, um, which still remain to be. gerrymandered, like New Jersey, New. York, Colorado, Washington, uh, and I'm. sure there are other Republican states. where you've got, you know, partisan. officials who are willing to to, you. know, do their part in this whole, uh, uh, you know, race to the bottom, basically. Where do you think that one side might. have an advantage over the other when. all is said and done? >> Uh, well, look. I mean, I think that it. is indeed the case that Republican. states should gain House seats and.

electoral votes from blue states in the. 2030 census. Now, we'll see what what. that what actually happens, and that's. also several election cycles away. I do. think these redistricting wars are going. to continue into the 2028. >> Yeah. >> Maybe you get the Calais decision in, I. mean, it could come in at any time, but. maybe it comes in June. Maybe it is a. pro-Republican ruling. You know, maybe. those protections for majority-minority. districts are eliminated. That'll have. ripple effects throughout the South. It. might It have ripple effects in in blue. states, too because maybe they won't. have to you know feel like they have to.

protect certain districts. You know you. could have states like Colorado and New. York go to the voters and and try to. roll back some of the redistricting. you know commissions or restrictions in. those states much the way that. California and Virginia did. Maybe a red. state like Indiana that elected not to. gerrymander or re-gerrymander in 2026, maybe they do it in 2028. So you could. sort of go on and on and on with lots of. possibilities. I will say that without. some sort of national solution on. redistricting.

in which you have some sort of agreement. between the parties as to how to do it. I mean that seems totally like a pie in. the sky kind of thing. You're just going to you're just going. to keep going here and I think the race. to the bottom is probably going to. continue. One thing that's I think maybe a little. bit dangerous for Democrats in the. context of 2028 and 2030 is that the. some of these maps might perform well. for Democrats in 2026 or maybe they. won't lose as many seats as they. expected like a Texas or Florida because. of the environment, but maybe those maps. will perform for Republicans in 2028 and.

2030. So you kind of got to you know you. got to take it election by election. And so maybe what looks like a wash in. 2026 actually is a Republican advantage. in 2028 because of the change in the. political environment. >> Kyle, for folks who are watching and. listening, where can they see and hear. more from you? >> centerforpolitics.org/crystalball. We just put up an analysis on Monday of. the new Florida map which I'm sort of. referencing here today. You know best. guess is that I think it might be a. challenge for Republicans actually to.

achieve that net gain of of four in. Florida even if the map is instituted. for this year. So. that's something we're watching going. forward here. >> Kyle, real quick. Is there any big. surprise that you're anticipating come. election day in midterms? >> I mean look, I mean I think it would. still be a surprise if Democrats flip. the Senate but uh and I think. Republicans are still favored but like. you're you're starting to see kind of. more of the path emerging here over the. past uh the past few months, but and you. know, the other thing is that um I'd say.

the bigger surprise than you know, Democrats flipping the Senate would be. Republicans holding the house, cuz I do. think Democrats are in pretty good. position in the house. Um and again, this redistricting thing is sort of. added some uncertainty there, but that's. generally been the case and I think that. that continues to be the case. >> You know, I feel like for as long as. I've been in politics, we have looked at. a few states as like, you know, just. impossible uh to get back into the blue. column, and that includes Florida, that. includes, you know, Texas. I I I don't. even remember a time when Texas was. there, but you know, that has been the.

perpetual prize. Um a place like Ohio. has gotten redder and redder. Do you Do. you have any feelings about the. prospects that Democrats have in this. election cycle as it relates to these to. these states that have been for so long. out of reach, but would really upend um. the political map as we know it if. suddenly Democrats are able to win in. Ohio or or Texas or Florida? >> Well, look, in order to actually flip. the Senate, you know, Democrats are. going to need at least two of those. seats from a you know, in from a. double-digit Trump Trump state. And that.

that assumes that they win North. Carolina and Maine. It assumes that they. hold all their current seats, you know, those may or may not be safe. assumptions, but uh but yeah, I mean, you know, Democrats are now locked out. of, you know, the the the the the uh of. the states that voted for Trump three. times he was on the ballot, which is 25. states, that's 50 Senate seats. You. know, they have to claw back some of. those some in some of those places to. win. North Carolina is a natural place. for that in the Senate. Then you look at. like Ohio, Iowa, Alaska, maybe Florida, maybe Texas. So, whether Democrats are.

going to can make inroads in those. states, it's probably not going to. decide the house, but it very well may. decide this the Senate. >> All right. Well, I'm going to put the. link to your website right here on the. screen, and also in the post description. for those who are listening on the. podcast, I'm going to throw it into the. show notes. Kyle, as always, thanks for. the analysis. Thanks for the work you. do. >> Thanks for having me. >> To listen to the audio version of this. episode, click the link right here on. the screen and make sure to subscribe. And of course, to see more video. content, that subscribe button's on the. screen as well. >> [music].