Why South Korea keeps jailing its former leaders - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Since the democratisation in 1987, there has been eight former presidents in South Korea, and half of them have been to prison. Now Yoon Suk Yeol is the last of them, and I think there is a bit of a pattern. It was a late night announcement that shocked a nation. The South Korean president live on television declaring martial law.

And now, just over a year later, that leader, Yoon Suk Yeol, is behind bars, facing up to life in jail or even the death penalty. and being prosecuted for insurrection. and aiding the enemy, among other charges. But he's hardly the first former leader to be thrown in jail. In fact, he's following in a long tradition of former South.

Korean presidents finding themselves in trouble after they leave office. So why is this Asian democratic success story. such a perilous place to be for former leaders? I'm Mariko Oi in Singapore, and this is Asia Specific. from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have the BBC Seoul correspondent Jake Kwon.

and Jeongmin Kim, who's the executive director of the Korea Risk Group, as well as a producer with Korea Pro, which does political. and foreign policy analysis. Welcome both. Firstly, let's start with you, Jake. You know, no one, not many people follow. South Korean politics as closely as you do. But I think it's fair to say that viewers and listeners will be aware. of the recent scandals like Park Geun-hye, getting jailed and so on. So can you start by just telling our audience, reminding our audience who Yoon Suk Yeol is and why he's facing such serious charges.

Well, this really has been a roller coaster of a few years. And Yoon Suk Yeol is, of course South Korea's former president here. He got into power in 2022. He's a former prosecutor. He really had this reputation for being almost like a bulldozer. He'll go in and get the bad guys, and that was working in his favour. when he got into power with a razor thin margin. And then immediately he starts having really contentious,

you know, relationship with the opposition party. And that eventually leads to the fateful martial law on the December of 2024, when he brings the troops to the nation's parliament. And now this is the part that's been contentious, whether he had the intent to arrest the lawmakers and suspend. South Korea's democracy, which is now being on the trial, really. And, we're going to see how it turns out in the next few months.

But really, this is the biggest kind. of political event in South Korea's recent history. And Jeongmin, if you look at American politics, Donald Trump faced quite a lot of legal issues, actions after his first term. But his followers stuck with him, didn't they? So what's the case with Mr. Yoon? I think it's quite similar with Mr. Yoon. Although the mobilised, supporters of Mr. Yoon, they are,

of course, less violent as it is in South Korea compared to the US. But the similar thing is that they very closely follow. whatever rhetoric or arguments, logic, threat perceptions. that former President Yoon employed when he was doing the martial law. very, very briefly and throughout until the impeachment. and afterwards as well, although there was no major violence. His very staunch supporters continued weekly protests,

basically saying that martial law was justified because Yun said there were. Chinese and North Korean threats actively threatening national security in South Korea. And also, they claim with Yoon that there was election rigging related to. the two wins of the then opposition Democratic Party, the presidential. and the parliamentary election. Yeah, not to mention the storming of the courthouse. Uh, that was of course, I think that was a bit of a parallel there, too.

Indeed. Jake, let's go through the history, because I'm absolutely fascinated by. how so many former South Korean presidents either end up in jail. One committed suicide during a bribery investigation, assassination and so on and so on. I think I started to realise the trend when Lee Myung-bak was in power, and he visited the disputed island between South Korea. and Japan, Dokdo, also known as Takeshima in Japan.

And I remember Japanese netizens saying, oh, he's trying to boost his popularity. so that he doesn't have to get arrested after he leaves office. And I thought, that can't be right. Not all of them go to jail. But then, of course, he was actually jailed, wasn't he? Well, I think there's some truth there. You know, since the democratisation in 1987, there has been eight former presidents in South Korea, and half of them have been to prison. Now Yoon Suk Yeol is the last of them. And I think there is a bit of a pattern. And if we look at presidents and leaders before the democratisation,

the four leaders prior to 1987, yes, three of them were ousted before their term was over. And then one of them was assassinated. So none of them left the office willingly. So South Korea, I think, has this history where the. former presidents are definitely fair game for prosecution. I don't think it is sacrosanct. And when, there is, you know, when the president is nearing the end of his term,

I think there is a lot of, perhaps, speculation on what kind. of criminal prosecution that might follow by the opposition party. And, you know, one of the contributing factors, some people argued, of declaring martial law was that he knew that him. and his wife were possibly facing impeachment and prosecution as well. You know, some of these leaders, you also have to understand that. they were jailed when when they were democracy activists, before they became the president. So almost every president in South Korea has some criminal record,

but it's not always for kind of wrongful causes. Jeongmin, I really want to find out why this is. Jake talked about many of these, I guess, presidential candidates, by the time they reach that kind of final two. Many of them already have criminal records. And as a result, it's quite possible. that they get investigated after they leave office as well. But what's your view on why.

so many of South Korean former leaders end up in jail? There is something with South Korean voters minds. when they select these potential leaders. that will become president and ultimately sometimes go to jail. They look for strongman leadership and these leaders, until they reach. the level of, you know, becoming presidential candidate, there are certain political routes that they tend to take. Sometimes it is through close relations with the "chaebols" or conglomerates. Sometimes it's through, you know, power game wins within the party.

So they tend to make a lot of enemies. while they are on their journey towards becoming a president. And then once people sort of vote. during the presidential election, we saw in the past few years. during Yoon, people wanted something strong compared to Moon. Lee, after Yoon, people wanted someone who can fight Trump. And so I think that is what comes with choosing strong leaders. They tend to be a bit more controversial than, let's say,

people who end up becoming, I think, prime ministers. And another factor, which I think, makes Yoon's case quite particular. is so far the presidents who were prosecuted and went to jail, they were mostly economic related crimes. But Yoon is very different. Yoon, I think, this is why I think, the sentencing, and the ultimate fate, might be a bit different, is that national security,

self-coup, and potentially aiding the enemy, these are very serious crimes compared to, other presidents that went to jail before. So there are some overlapping factors that might explain. why this has been a recurring pattern so far. But because of that last thing I mentioned, Yoon's case might be a little bit different. But there is a precedence of Chun Doo-hwan, who has gone to jail for the exact same thing. He's on trial for leading an insurrection. So I think that's something the prosecutors and the judge will be looking very closely.

So, I mean, other former leaders who were jailed, you mentioned, you know, some of them who were jailed for bribery, corruption reasons. Their sentences were shortened, often pardoned. So you don't think that could happen to Mr. Yoon, Jeongmin? I think that it will come with a higher political cost. for whoever decides to pardon Yoon in the future. For Lee and Park,

the logic easily was, one is they served their time. Second, it was something that was. related to a political situation. at the time where their specific case was under spotlight, because of, you know, adversaries sort of pointing to it, or so the ruling party says when they are pardoned. But for Yoon, because even his own former party, People Power Party,

is having a difficult time trying to figure out. what their relations is with the impeached president. I think whoever wins in the future, even when it is a very, very popular conservative president, they will need to be very cautious. when it comes to the timing and the logic of potentially pardoning Yoon. Do you see a future where Lee Jae Myung pardons Yoon himself? I don't see that happening. Honestly. I want to ask you about these corruption bribery incidents,

because I don't think many people think South Korea. as being a corrupt country where, you know, you pay a bribe. to a cop to get what you want, that kind of stuff. And yet, Jeongmin, you mentioned the relationship between Chaebols, the huge South Korean conglomerates and some of those former leaders. So is that kind of quite common, corruption? Bribery is actually quite common. Do you think at the top of the businesses and politics.

Lobbying is technically illegal in South Korea. But if you look at South Korea's, national construction history. before and after democratisation, it was very difficult to develop the, you know, grow the economy without the help of the conglomerates. So it wasn't a secret that there was a very close relations. between the conglomerates, the chaebols, and the government. But I think what changed in 2015.

and then later is that people started to look more closely. into what democratic threshold there. should be, whether there should be some boundaries. And I think public sentiment, the public perception of what is. okay, I think that changed. And that's when I think presidents started to go to jail. for economic crime sort of reason. I think, when we see the history of presidents coming under the crosshair, a lot of them try to defend their,

you know, corruption charges, bribery charges, as well. as any kind of corner cutting really is part of the statesmanship that, you know, being a president requires you to cut some corners for the speed. or just to get things done and deliver the result. And they said, this is just part of being a leader. I think there is some understanding in the, I guess, inside the elites, inside the politics. I remember speaking to one operative or, you know, people who are kind of in the campaigning of the lawmakers here.

And they were saying the political law, I mean, this is how they were defending it, that. the election law is just way too tight. And, you know, election is a war of money. And in order to raise that money, you know, there's a lot. of money changing hands. And it's not necessarily they're putting that money directly into their pocket. But in order to win this election, they need a lot. They need to fill up the war chest. And a lot of these bribes are really going towards that end.

You know, there are always these, I mean, one. of the trials that Yoon Suk Yeol is facing is, of course, taking money to nominate certain candidate for their, you know, their parliamentary seats. And these are some of the defences. that I heard while talking to those in the politics. Just to add something very quickly about the calculations of pardoning. It's not, it's usually not. it's framed as a goodwill, but usually it the incumbent leader counts.

into what kind of demographic support. that they will gain from pardoning certain figures, I think. And when they were being pardoned, it was, you know, sort of framed as bipartisan sort of harmony being an aim, like, you know, social reconciliation. But with Yoon, I think that might be slightly different. Because by pardoning Yoon, the people that the support group that the incumbent leader will gain. from the pardon will be probably the far right.

And are they a good enough reward for someone to take that political risk? I don't really see that happening anytime soon. I think for that to happen, I think there are two conditions. Yoon has to look repentant, and that there has to also be some illness that is visible. I mean, Yoon does look quite frail, since he left the office. I mean, you know, there were many local reports that he's a heavy drinker. as well. Some of his health was being questioned. So, you know, maybe not right now, I cannot imagine.

But in five years down the line, ten years down the line, I can imagine a future where he's pardoned by the next leader. I think many viewers, listeners would consider South Korea. as a one of the very few successful democracy story. Are people in South Korea proud of that, or are they quite concerned? Do they have issues with the fact that many. of your former leaders end up in jail. I think it depends on who you ask, really.

Because, are you proud that presidents were impeached? If you ask people who come to Gwanghwamun every Saturday. to support Yoon's impeachment and getting him out of jail, they will probably say that that is a big hurdle to national security, you know, policies being continued, and it's all because of the opposition party, you know, trying to get the person in power down from their position.

But if you ask the other people who are protesting in front of Gyeongbokgung, which is just a few miles away, they will say that they are actually. proud that they were able to go to the streets and. make it continuously in the headline that people are against the regime. and they think that they have done something unconstitutional, and the court actually listened to them. Yeah. And I think, I think there's more people here who might ask the question,

like, why aren't other countries sending more of their leaders to jail? You know, I think some may even argue that there are a lot. of leaders around the world who deserve to go to jail. or be prosecuted and just not be immune. I think a lot of South Korean people are quite proud of, you know, it's almost. like a very symbolic action to show that no one is above the law. And I think this is something that comes up. whenever there is a prosecution of a former leader. And, you know, depending on who you ask. but most people I've spoken to here seems quite,

they agree that presidents. and former leaders should not be immune from consequences. I want to ask you about this recommendation of death penalty. I mean, how likely is it that Mr. Yoon could actually get executed. because South Korea hasn't executed anyone in, what, 30 years? I think it's highly unlikely that the court will break that streak record.

to sentence him for death penalty. But I can imagine something like a lifelong sentence maybe, but not the death penalty, I think. That is something for the court to. consider other variables as well, because there has been, you know, the human rights organisations, UN watchdogs that have been consistently warning. that South Korea actually has, like, even without death penalty,

that sometimes the punishments are disproportional. Yeah. I'll be very, very surprised. if South Korea actually carries out a death penalty. I think it is largely symbolic. They have to look at the precedent of Chun Doo-hwan, the last military dictator who was given death penalty in the lower court. That was, of course, overturned, and it was reduced to life in prison later. But because the first, the lower court found him,

I mean, you know, gave him death penalty, I think this judge also had to look at that. But in terms of actually carrying out, despite, you know, what current President Lee Jae Myung had said, the people who are guilty of coup d'état. or these insurrection must be punished to the end of their life. Like what happened to the Nazi Party, were his words. I think the actual chance of Mr. Yoon, you know, being punished to the end of his life is really, truly unlikely. Aside from Mr. Yoon, I want to know what's the future?

Because the current president, Lee Jae Myung, also has been investigated for bribery. before he became the president, wasn't he? So do you think, you know, there could be times. when former presidents are no longer thrown into jail? You know, 50 percent of the time. Or do you think this kind of culture of making sure. that those at the top get punished if necessary, that's going to continue, Jeongmin?

I can't really look too far away in the future, because right now I'm not even sure who can actually run for presidency. There's a very, you know, very much of a lack of talent in both parties. But regarding Lee, he has eight scandals merged into five trials, and all of those were suspended by the court, citing the constitution. about suspension and immunity when he was inaugurated. So I can see that when, I can imagine that when he his term ends,

the issue will come back, regardless of whether the cases expire. There would be some, you know, right wing public sentiment. that these issues are, you know, Lee shouldn't be an exception in facing potential trials. And I think when it comes to the precedence of South Korean presidents, South Korean leaders going to jail after they leave the office, I think there is still an argument of why, you know,

despite South Korea, the fact that South Korea, you know, has rule of law. And no one is above the law, why that should not be there anymore, why that tradition should stop, and kind of give these. former leaders some immunity even after they leave the office. You know, I think there are, you know, some arguments to be made. where politics essentially turns into blood sport, where, you know, winners, turn around and punish the former leader.

Whoever lost, the side who last lost, and then, you know, whoever gets into the office. now has to spend a lot of considerable resource and effort. and then their attention on avoiding jail once they leave the office. And it can incentivise the current leader to, you know, go further. into cutting the corners of, even further eroding the democracy. in order to avoid the consequences of whatever infringement that they had made.

while that rise to power or during their seat. I guess it is a price of having a very active democracy. You know, being from Japan, having two strong political parties which go. after one another's leader is something that I think people might be envious. because Japan doesn't have a strong enough opposition party to go. after the ruling party's leader, even if they need it to maybe. But we'll pause this conversation for now. Thank you to Jake and Jeongmin. Thank you for having me.

Thanks for having me. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we've covered in this episode. or any other stories from this region, please leave us a comment below and click like and subscribe. so you never miss an episode, but see you next time!