Why North Korea is strong at women’s football - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

So there's a football match taking place in South Korea. But Jake, it's not an ordinary match, is it? No, not at all. Because for the first time in nearly eight years, a North Korean team is going to be here in South Korea. And this is a women's game, a semifinal for Asian Champions League match. And it is very rare for North Korean team to play a South Korean team. And I just learned that North Korea actually has. a really strong women's football team. So we're asking why.

North Korea, which is one of the world's most reclusive countries, managed to produce such a strong football team. As always, I'm Mariko in Singapore. and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. So every time we talk about North or South Korea, we love to go to our man in Seoul, Jake Kwon. Welcome back. Hey, thank you for having me.

And I also have Daisy Yoo, who's a freelance sports reporter, joining us from Seoul. Thank you so much for coming on the pod, Daisy. Hi. Thank you for having me. So, Jake, let's start with what this particular football match is about, because it's not like the national teams of the two countries are having a game, are they? So can you tell us why there's such a buzz? You're right. And this is between Pyongyang's team and Suwon's team playing. It's for the Women's Asian Champions League.

And they're going to play this game, and then whoever wins here will play one more game at the end of this week. So, yeah, it's not a national team but it might as well be. I mean, a North Korean football team like this based in Pyongyang. They're really representing the country itself. And the reason we're watching is because we rarely ever see. a North Korean team and a South Korean team play together, especially inside South Korea. The last time any North Korean sports team was here was eight years ago.

So this is a very rare event. And Daisy, Jake was just talking about how rare this kind of match is. What's the perception of the South Korean public? Are they interested in this game? Yeah, it is quite rare for. the North Korea football team to visit South Korea. And this makes the coming tournament very meaningful. The South Korea government is also supporting. a large civilian cheering group of around 3000 people, with public funding of about 300 million Korean won, which is roughly 220,000 USD.

To cheer for the North Koreans or for the South Koreans? For the both. Oh, okay. Yeah. Why is that? Is that because of that, I remember, was it like 2019 when there was a match between South. and North Korea men's football teams, I think. And it was like in an empty stadium. Is that why they're arranging these like civilian cheerleading squads?

Yeah. I don't think a North Korean team is bringing their own cheer squad here. So I think there is this attempt by South Korean government. I mean, they're making this almost like a national event. and they are trying to make them feel welcome. You know, normally these women's professional football matches, they don't sell out. But this one sold out right away, probably because of these NGOs who is trying to make them feel welcome, had bought all the tickets with the South Korean government money.

And they are inviting people, they're kind of giving them out so that people will be filling all the seats. and then, you know, saying some really nice things. to the North Koreans, so they feel really welcome here. Yeah, because the South Korean government had to approve, I guess, the visa for those North Korean players to come to South Korea, didn't they? You were talking about how rare this is, Jake, can you just talk us back? You know, look back at history and. how these kind of matches, especially in football, took place,

and you know how that turned out. Look, football sports in general has really been an opportunity for South. and North Korea to kind of thaw any kind of tension between the two countries. I mean, look back in 2017 and 18, when South Korea and North Korea was having one of its tensest moments, especially between, you know, President Trump at the time and Kim Jong Un. You remember when they were talking about the big red button, how the North Korean might fire missile that's going to go over Guam.

And it really did look like we were at the brink of war and. that moment was brokered thanks to the Pyeongchang Winter Olympics in 2018. The North Korean delegation came, and South Korea. and North Korea even formed this, like, unified women's hockey team. And this kind of began the way to the détente. So I think whenever South Korean people look at the sports with North Korea, they're kind of interested in how this could be used.

as a stepping stone towards, you know, brokering some kind of peace between the two countries. The South Korea-North Korea relationship right now is pretty bad. I mean, it's not as bad as threatening to, you know, blow up each other. We had that a few times in the past, but we just had North Koreans really codifying the South Korea. as no longer their compatriot. Back in 2024, Kim Jong un said South Korea is their sworn enemy and they were not going to even talk to them.

So the reason we're all watching is because we're wondering, is this the moment that North Korea kind of opens up again. towards South Korea, restarts their talks, and maybe will this lead to something more engagement or peace? Yeah, I guess it's kind of the sports diplomacy that has played a role. in the past, which could happen this time as well. But Daisy, I want to ask you particularly about. North Korea's women's football team, because I just learned that they're actually really, really strong and.

they're kind of in the world's top ten. Is that right? I mean, when did we discover. how strong they were in terms of their football skills. Yeah, that is such a fascinating question. because North Korea's rise actually happened in distinct waves. The real shock wave came in 2006. That was when North Korea won the FIFA, U-20 Women's World Cup, tracing China five to nil in the final. And they repeated that dominance in 2016,

defending football giants like Spain, France and the US. But I was reading about there was a bizarre doping scandal, wasn't there, about 15 years ago. Can you tell us about that? Of course, as you mentioned, that incredible journey was interrupted by. the bizzare 2011 doping scandal involving musk deer medicine, followed by their strict Covid lockdowns. But what we are witnessing right now, is there's a second awakening. by sweeping the recent US World Cup between 2024 and 2025,

they proved that. their isolated, state funded system never stopped working. They are definitely back and they are. just as dangerous as they were a decade ago. Yeah, I want to talk about the second wave. But you said a musk deer scandal, the doping scandal. So can you tell us what exactly happened? And you know, how many of the players were affected by it?

You know what actually then happened to the North Korean national team? From what I understand, after the doping, the North Korean came up with this very bizarre explanation, that part of their kind of diet of eastern medicine was musk deer organ. And that may be what had caused this positive scan of the doping substance. And but to be honest, this is not just North Korea thing.

I hear this explanation sometimes come up. when South Korean athletes or Chinese athletes sometimes get tripped up. One thing that South Korean athletes are told not to do. is to take these eastern medicines sometimes, you know, whether that's like some kind of soup or some kind of traditional medicine, because who knows, there might be some substance in there. that may be prohibited by the authorities. And I guess as a result, I understand that they were banned.

from the World Cup in 2015. They didn't make it in 2019, and they didn't join in 2023 because of the pandemic, as you said, Daisy. So now that's why we're kind of seeing the resurgence in the football scene. Do we know how they got so strong? Because I don't think I'm alone to think that you wouldn't really expect. a reclusive regime like North Korea to be able to produce.

such a strong women's football team. Daisy. Yeah. The North Korean regime under Kim Jong Il. saw a massive geopolitical opportunity. They realised that with a centralised, state funded system, they could bypass the cadence of football history. and fast track their way to the top. So they treated women's football like a state project. They gathered the best athletes talents from across the country, isolated them in elite camps, and applied a military style discipline.

I guess the thinking was that in women's football, where other countries may not have been investing as much as in men's football, they could probably rise a lot quicker. Do we know what kind of training, what kind of, I guess, VIP treatment those female footballers receive. once they actually qualify to play for those professional clubs? I want both of your opinions, but I know it's really difficult to verify these things, but whatever we know happens there will be quite interesting,

I think, for our audience. What we have heard through, you know, secondary or third sources is that, yeah, they get treated very well. It is considered a national state level project to make sure. that they get the best of the best food wise, training wise, that they can offer. Another thing, factor that I kind of keep reading over. and over again is that North Korea has these plateau, these kind of high altitude region,

and a lot of these athletes will train there where, you know, the air is more rarefied. Oxygen level is lower. So that when you train over there. and when you get to the regular kind of sea level, your heart. and your lung is working kind of, you know, it's all very much trained up. And that's what makes them so strong. But yeah, it's just like how North Korea approaches when it comes to, you know, their kind of rare, very accomplished missile system,

their weapon system, you know, when these regime, even though we think of them as very economically poor. or possibly infrastructure institutionally underdeveloped, when they put their all their resources and, you know, strength behind it, they can come up with some really great achievements. I have to say though, Jake, I was reading that there was. an Austrian filmmaker who managed to follow the North Korean team, and according to her, those players were given. like a really nice apartment in Pyongyang,

and they were allowed to bring their parents to the capital. So I guess, you know, if you're growing up in a rural North Korea, it is quite a luxurious lifestyle that they can get. When these athletes, you know, make big achievement overseas, they are showered and given a hero's welcome. We've seen that again with a car parade thrown for this, I believe a football team just last year and Kim Jong un kind of praising them. And North Korea is a society where once, you know,

the leader of the country says something really nice about you. or even just to meet him in person. Now all that, you know, this kind. of privileged treatment follows you around for the rest of your life. And if you win a medal outside whatever, you are treated. like a vice minister, a level when it comes to pensions and payments. So yeah, like, it will change your life to make it. into one of these teams and even better to win something outside. But that's if you're winning, right? And I always wonder if they lose,

if they have like a really humiliating defeat, what happens to them? I mean, you know, some speculate that maybe they get sent to, you know, face consequences, punishments. But is that actually true? Or, you know, what do we know about the consequences if they lose? Look, I think there's a rumour going around. each time this does come up, like you said. And the kind of common rumour is that whoever loses has to go dig out coals.

in this notorious coal mines in North Korea. You know, each time North Korea loses something. in the world stage, there's this rumour going around. But, well, when it comes. to what is actually reported and that can be verified, we haven't really seen a verified evidence that this happens. According to Ministry of Unification, you know, we sometimes see these higher football officials. or higher sports officials, if they are found to have been perhaps not very proper.

in how they conducted this project, then they might be sent for reeducation session. in one of these collectivised farm and then return to the post. But when it comes to, if there is any punishment. towards the players themselves, I don't think there is a conclusive evidence that this happens. Yeah. Being sent to a coal mine doesn't, I don't think that would help with your football skills, does it? No, no, no, that is just common rumour to the point. where it's become a joke. Yeah, yeah.

I'm wondering now that because I think, you know, other countries have started investing a lot more. in women's football as well. So, you know, Daisy, you describe North Korea's women's football being back, and they are quite dangerous because they're so strong. But how far can they go, do you think, given other countries are also pouring in. quite a lot of investments, as well as training in women's football? Yeah, the global landscape has changed completely over the last decade.

Today, women's football in Europe. and the United States is no longer just a macho sport. It is a massive industry. Now, while North Korea's highly disciplined military style system is incredibly tough to beat, mental strength and raw talent alone might not be enough anymore. To constantly compete with tactical giants like England or the US.

North Korean players need regular exposure. to high level international matches, but because of their ongoing political isolation, they cannot play friendly matches abroad easily. So while they will always be a dangerous opponent, their lack of international experience outside. of official tournaments could limit how far they can go in the long run. Yeah, it's interesting in terms. of getting that international exposure and experience.

Do you think, Jake, this could be kind of the start. of the new, friendlier phase of sports diplomacy? Because obviously Kim Jong Un, slash the North Korean government would have had to say, yeah, go ahead to South Korea to play this game. and also for the South Korean government to grant them visas. Yeah, I think this is the reason, this is the big question, isn't it? Will this lead to more engagement between the two countries?

And will this signal that North Korea is now open. to speaking with South again? Because one story we kept hearing is. South Koreans trying to reach out to North Korea, whether that means sending them a letter or giving them a call and North Korea. just completely ignoring the South side as if they don't exist. So just for them sending a team to South to interact with South Koreans, perhaps it is a signal that North Korea is pivoting here.

And I think there were some speculations even before that North Korea. might just give it a miss and not even send their team to the South. But what also needs to be considered is. that if North Korea does not participate in this match, first of all, North Koreans are very much expected to win. because they're one of the strongest teams in the world. And there's $1 million in prize money that is hanging on this. And if you miss it for not a good reason, the football club, sorry,

the football organisation can give them disciplines, whether that means. they cannot, you know, participate in the next match or next year, etc. So there are some real penalties to not coming. And one thing that North Korea is trying to do is to show off. how strong and accomplished their sports stars are. And they'll be missing out on that opportunity. to also, to beat South Koreans in a match would be a propaganda coup.

And also, another thing North Koreans are doing is they were trying. to kind of make them out to be a very normal country, a regular country like any other. I think a lot of us watching North Korea, we like to point out how unique North Korea is, how different they are from what we call regular normal countries. But North Korea now, their new thing is that we are regular country. So what would a regular country do? Not send its football team to play in a different country. because of some diplomatic reasons? They wouldn't do that.

So North Korea might be just acting normal here. When it comes. to whether this means that North Korea is now ready to play friendly. with South Korea? I don't know. We've seen pictures of North Korean team entering through Incheon Airport. the other day, and they didn't stop by at all. There were these cheering people, Korean people, cheering NGOs saying. like, welcome, welcome, we love you. And then North Korean simply ignored it. They kept their eyes forward and they just left the arrival hall. Within a minute, they didn't interact. They didn't wave hands.

They didn't even smile. So I think what we're going to see is North Koreans kind of staying, ignoring South Koreans as much as possible that, you know, the rules will allow it. I guess a lot of pressure on those women's footballers. from North Korea as they fight this match. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Daisy and Jake, you've been watching Asia Specific. from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore.

If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.