Why China is dominating the humanoid robot race - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Humanoid robots are seemingly everywhere. Dancing, boxing, running marathons and Stephen, China once again is at the forefront of this. Mariko, China is kicking all sorts of goals on the robotics front, with Beijing really behind this technology. The question is when are they going to actually do something useful? Yeah, I want them to start doing my dishes. So we're asking how close are we. to having humanoid robots do housework or say, perform surgery? And do they really need to look like humans?

I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best. I have two BBC journalists with me today, Joe Tidy, who is our cyber correspondent, and he's looked into the potentials of humanoid robots. Thank you so much for coming on Asia Specific, Joe. Pleasure. And I also have our Beijing correspondent Stephen McDonell.

Welcome back to the pod. Stephen. Good day, good day, good to see you. So Stephen, we've all seen those pictures, videos of dancing flipping robots from China. So can you just paint the picture first. How widely are these robots deployed in your day to day life in China? I mean, really, it is a bit of a novelty, and I can't imagine what you'd practically use them for at the moment. And the joke around here goes that, you know, you're so often seeing them.

on television dancing and doing kung fu and stuff like that, that if you bought one of these robots and you came home and. you're like, "hey, robot, where are my noodles?". And it's like, "oh, sorry, I've been busy dancing all day, man. Have a listen to this song, master. Heaven's in the back seat of my Cadillac.". So it's a bit like that, you know? When are you going to actually do some housework or something useful? Are they not at like restaurants and stuff though? Like delivering food and so on in China?

So now, robots at restaurants aren't really humanoid, though. They're like, you know, I'm trying to think what they would look like, a sort. of rubbish bin on wheels or something going around that kind of shape, not with arms and legs and fingers and stuff like that. For example, we went to Haidilao, which was, you know, the famous hot pot restaurant when it first opened with these robots. And at the time everyone thought, wow, this is the cutting edge. There's going to be robots everywhere and restaurants,

and they've got this sort of robotic stuff going on in the, in the, sort of back room and everything like that. But still, even at that restaurant, the one that's really showing off robots, the vast majority of delivery to the table. and what have you is still being done by humans. And even when you're little Dalek comes along. with your noodles and bits of meat and stuff to put in the hot pot. Then a human will come along and actually put it on the table for you. So, no, we're not really seeing widespread use of humanoid robots.

Joe, you actually looked into the potential of humanoid robots. possibly becoming like a robot butler. And I think that was in the US, wasn't it? Can you just tell us how close are we to having. one of those robots actually doing something useful at home? Yeah, I went out to Silicon Valley. Was it end of last year? And we did a piece about humanoid robots, whether or not they will be the next big thing. And it was fascinating because we looked at five different companies.

sort of doing it very different in sort of different ways. There was one company that's probably the most famous, which you might have seen, which is called 1X, which makes a robot called Neo. And Neo is, sort of went viral last year. It's a very cute looking robot. It's about five foot tall. It's got arms and legs. It's kind of it wears knitwear all over its body. So it looks kind of quite cuddly, which is all part of the design, of course. And it can walk around, it can hold things. It can water your plants. It can it can basically do anything.

It can empty a dishwasher and all that, but it's a man or a woman wearing a VR headset controlling it. And that's what we're seeing a lot of. We're seeing these impressive demos. with these humanoid robots, which are actually effectively like drones, you know, in the same way that you would control a drone. There are exceptions, though. I went and looked at a company called Sunday AI, and they make a robot called Memo, and that doesn't have legs. So crucially, that's a really tricky part that they've decided they're not going to worry about.

It's on trolleys, it's on wheels, but it does have arms. It has a face and it moves up and down its head. And it uses sensors. We watch an autonomous sort. of sequence that they put the robot through completely. without any human controlling it, which was actually very impressive. Do they actually have to look like humans or. like, why is it that those companies are trying to make them look like us? Yeah, I think that's a really, really good point. And some people would say they don't need legs.

That's like the kind of thing that you always see online. when people post these videos, why are we giving them legs? But the problem is that the world is made for humans. Everything is is made for our hands. There are stairs that you have to navigate this kind of thing. So I think the companies like Sunday. that don't that aren't worried about legs. They also have gone for the sort of trolley design. and they will probably move faster, it seems, than the ones where we have where they have to worry about legs. But in the long run it does seem like it sounds crazy,

but I do think robots probably do need legs. in order to navigate human homes and gardens the way that we do. So we went along to the robot Olympics and people remember. that's where, you know, they're having races and things like that. At that robot Olympics, we did speak to the CEO of one of these companies. and I put it to him, I was like, do they have to be humanoid shape? He actually said no. He said, the main reason we're doing it is. because that's what people expect. They don't read. They really don't have to be. They could be any shape at all.

It's a sort of psychological thing, and it'll just depend how it goes. Whether it's a marketing thing, as do people prefer it or whether or not. I mean, people have seen Interstellar, that movie, you know, the Christopher Nolan movie and that sort of. three legged robot that can flip. Yeah, the blocks and that. I mean, why not? On a practical point, though, I've been in these. these demo kitchens that they make. And when you've got a robot without legs, it takes up a lot more space than when you've got a robot with legs.

And that I think might, it sounds like sounds so basic, but that might, it might be a factor because at some point these things. have got to turn off into a corner and they've got to charge themselves. And if you've got a big old base which is holding this, you know, you've got to have the foundations. If you're not balancing with legs, then you need a really strong, really big trunk of a base. Round bottom to it, isn't it? They have this big round bottom with wheels on it. And then it's because it's funny, I saw it. There was one of those actually being trialled here to doing housework,

and I guess they thought it looked pretty impressive. Again, I don't want to sound like a total Luddite here, but what struck me is that this robot, with its round with its arms. But as Joe was saying, no legs, but this round base. But what about the face, though? Because I was actually thinking. If you wake up. In the middle of the night, you know, I would probably freak out if there was like, human looking thing. And they're like, Mariko, look out! I'm folding up your clothes. Yeah, that would just freak me out.

But what I was going to say about the folding clothes, right? It's so slow, man. God, it's so slow. Like, here's the undies. And then bam, bam, bam. And I'm putting them down. And here's one sock. Oh, I dropped it. Here's another sock. Now I did on the weekend. I was talking to a Chinese friend about this who was then saying to me, come on, you got to remember that a few years ago they didn't have there's none of this. So you've got to bear in mind the speed with which this is all changing.

Within a few years, maybe they'll be banging out the washing, you know, quicker than we can say, come on, Hal, you know, get me back to earth. But, Joe, you were saying how a lot of those robots. or humanoid robots that you saw had humans controlling them remotely. But I assume the goal is autonomous humanoid robots. And if so, how? How are they trained? Because some of the movement that we're talking about, like washing, you know, wine glasses, that's a very delicate move.

that human hands do, isn't it? Well, yeah. So most of the training is done through them watching millions. of, you know, videos of, of people carrying out tasks. And they can get a certain level with a sort of large language model style, you know, of machine learning, they can get there. But the problem we've got is the, the finer parts of everyday life. They require really, really good quality data. So what we're seeing a lot of companies doing is literally paying people.

to wear a camera on their foreheads and then carry out everyday tasks and. in that video goes into training the AIs into, you know, figuring out how you move your hands and your fingers in a certain way. The really, really smart thing I saw when I was there was this company. Sunday AI, the one I mentioned with Memo. That's the one that is able to do things autonomously. They've come up with quite a neat trick. So they are paying people to wear the camera on their heads,

but to wear the gloves where the actual hands that Memo has. So Memo doesn't have five finger, you know, four fingers. and a thumb, Memo has a kind of like mitt and it moves around in certain ways. So they wear that mitt and they wear the camera. And then the mitt can pick up using sensors match up what. they're seeing with what the kind of the glove is going through the motions. And they think that's how they've got so far, because they're probably the most advanced in terms of autonomy. that I saw anyway in Silicon Valley.

We've went to what's been called now Robot Valley. in Shenzhen a couple of months ago. There are so many robotics companies there and a whole bunch of them. All they're doing is hands because if they know. if they can get the hands right, well, they can sell the hands. to all the other robot companies and they're getting really good. You see these robot hands, what you know, the level. of movement, I mean, quite apart from the data. And you're collecting it and teaching them how to do it. Just the actual, the machinery to be able to move.

with the intricacy of a human hand. It is quite phenomenal. And but Stephen, I mean, you know, you talked about that robot valley. in China and I was reading how 90% of humanoid production happens in China. and 75% of delivery. And in comparison, the US only accounts for. about 6% of production and 12% of delivery. So how did China become so dominant in this? With government encouragement is the answer.

I mean, these companies, they're being held up as corporate champions, if you like, with very generous benefits of all types from the government. It's the same way that China really catapulted electric vehicles. or solar power or wind turbines by, you know, you you give all these incentives for companies to get on with it. And they do. Now, in China, there are, oh, hundreds of these companies, and I think at last count, 400 different types of robots being produced here.

And also, there's a philosophical thing here in China, which is a bit different to other countries with this tech, it's like in other countries, it's like the tech is sort of worked out. to a higher level then thrown onto the market. Well, in China, because people are real sort of early adapters and. they're prepared to have a go of buying some possibly semi useless robot just for the fun of having it. And so there, it's like the marketing and the sales is coming first.

And then they're just working it out as they go and the robots are just going to get better and better. And the companies, they're playing the long game and hoping that. at some point into the future, they're going to make money from it. Yeah. And I guess that cutthroat competition makes them cheaper for consumers. And that's exactly what they did with other things. like EVs and green technology as well, isn't it? But Joe, where is the United States in this competition? Because, you know, we love talking about the US-China competition on this podcast.

And obviously you weren't in the US looking into the possibilities. Well, I think there's there is so much money. and excitement going into humanoid robots. I suppose there are two different sort of areas of this, though, which we've, we should perhaps just make make a point of. There's the kind of the industrial humanoids, the likes of Tesla's Optimus Robot, for example, that they're still developing. So there's that side of it, which I think already China is shipping, you know, a huge number of those types of robots to, to companies around the world, like car maker car manufacturers.

But the domestic humanoid butler type stuff, there is. so much money being poured into that, particularly in Silicon Valley, in the US, that I think that if you looked at both, I think it would be very hard to know which one is leading the way. between China and the US. No one else is anywhere near close that I can see. There are so many pop ups and startups. in Silicon Valley that are aiming for this. I went to one which was, you know, a spin off of a university project,

and they have a robot called Isaac that rolls around on a wheelbase, and it's got these long arms and that's all being teleoperated. They're not autonomous stage yet. But she said to me, who runs the company, She said, they really, truly believe that there will be a new aspiration. So right now in the world, the aspiration is I want to have a house. and I want to have a car. She thinks there will be a third. She thinks there will be a robot at home. That will be the third aspiration of the kind of the developed world.

So you said no one comes close to the US or China, which kind of makes me sad. because, you know, I covered robotics in Japan many, many years ago, which was kind of at the forefront of it at the time. And also Germany, which used to be known for cutting edge technology. So where are other countries in this competition, or are they kind of so far behind that you don't even think about, Joe? Well, I think they probably are catching up. or they're not, you know, a million miles away. Possibly the problem for the Germanys and the Japans of the world is.

that the marketing. I think the money and the marketing is massive. There are companies that are excellent at putting out very slick videos. of their robots doing various things. They're the ones that get the attention. They're the ones that get the investment dollars. And I think that is crucial. And if you're not doing that, then you aren't, you're not going to be able to catch up. You're not going to be able to overtake. because this stuff costs a huge amount of money. Joe, you were saying you're probably more optimistic than others. when it comes to how close we are to having those robot butler at home,

actually not breaking those wine glasses and actually doing all those housework. What kind of timeline are we talking about? Because I was watching your programme and I thought it was really interesting. how you said, you know, you reported on the potential of EVs for a decade, you know, autonomous cars as well. And, you know, back then it was kind of, you know, far off reality. And now they're actually quite common in the US and China. So what kind of timeline do you think we're talking about when it comes.

to humanoid robots, which are actually useful? Yeah that's right. I remember sort of sitting in the driverless car in Silicon Valley. and thinking, this is really interesting because. I have literally been talking about and reporting on driverless cars. for over a decade, and now I'm in one and it feels normal. And I thought, I wonder if there's going to be a moment like that. with robotics, where we talk about it for years and. then suddenly they're here this year. So what are we, 2026? A lot of the companies I spoke to said they want to launch something this year. And then maybe even maybe sort of pushing into next year,

but those ones will be almost all operated by humans. And that's where you get the privacy, you know, concerns potentially there. because there will be literally looking through the cameras of the. of the robot going around your house. But again, if you're an early adopter, if you don't mind about that kind of thing, if you're rich, I think we will start to see this happen in the next couple of years. We are so far away though, from the actual dream of a butler that says hello to you when you get home,

takes your hat and coat and you know, and then runs your house for you. I think that's going to be many, many, many years away. But again, it could just suddenly be here. And we've been talking about it. And then suddenly it happens. If the bar is really high for a humanoid to do everything a human can do. And then there's your coffee machine down here, there might be things in between which people might settle for. Like, I'll give you an example. We went into the Tesla factory in Shanghai and had a look.

Now it's full of robots and robot that the whole production line is robots, but they're all just doing specific tasks. So it could be that people might say, look, I just want the clothes washing robot. or I just want the coffee making one or whatever it is. And it doesn't have to move everywhere around your house and do it. Although that obviously is the novelty people want the idea of the novelty. of them. Hello. Walking around and talking to you and stuff. But it it could be that a much quicker thing would be to settle.

for job specific robots that can just do a couple of things. A fascinating thought. I think I will probably get a nightmare of so many arms coming. out of so many bits and pieces of my house doing housework though. Thank you so much for joining me, Stephen and Joe. You've been watching Asia Pacific from the BBC World Service. with me, Marie Gore in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below.

You can also get in touch with us on email. Asia-Pacific at bbc.co.uk and you know the drill. Click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.