Why BTS rejected the Grammys’ new pop category - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Winning a Grammy is the highest recognition a musician can get, but Mark, the organiser's decision to create a dedicated category. specifically to Asian pop, it seems to have backfired. That's right, Mariko, because a month after it was announced. the biggest Korean group in the world, BTS, announced that they were withdrawing all of their music. from consideration at the Grammy Awards. They said the music should be heard and loved for what it is, and not divided by region or by language. It doesn't seem like the organisers were expecting.

this kind of blowback, though, does it? Because they're now reconsidering that decision. And also, the question that everyone seems to be asking is, would a separate pop category be a celebration. or a segregation of Asian artists? Well, we'll try to answer that question. As always, I'm Mariko in Singapore. and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best.

I have a music correspondent, Mark Savage. Welcome back to Asia Specific, Mark. Thank you. Nice to be here. And I also have Andy Trieu. The internet says you're Australia's number one Asian pop host. Do you want to introduce yourself, Andy, to our audience? Hey, Mariko, my name is Andy Trieu. I'm the host of SBS Popasia. for the last, you know, decade or so interviewing Asian pop stars, you know, all across the world from BTS and more. Yeah, I got a great job.

I know, I was going to say the two of you have probably the best jobs. in the industry that many of us are very envious of. And before we dive in, Mark, let's start with you. This new category that the Grammy organisers have announced to create, which seems to have prompted BTS's decision to withdraw from next year's ceremony. Can you just explain what this category is about? So it was announced in June. It was called the Best Asian pop category.

And the idea was that with music from Japan and Korea. and China becoming more and more of a global force, that the Grammys wanted to offer it some form of recognition. And obviously, the big main categories are hugely competitive. So as a way of feeding that music into the Grammy ecosystem, they were giving it its own award. Now, a lot of people felt that perhaps this was pigeonholing music, that it would exclude people from the main awards. And although the Grammys have said that wasn't the case, this seems to be.

what has led to BTS's decision to withdraw from the Grammys entirely. And Andy, what was your reaction when you heard about this category, but also about BTS's decision to withdraw because you've interviewed them before, haven't you? Initially, I could understand it from both sides, but then I, you know, some deeper thoughts, like creating an Asian category, you know, it does acknowledge like how big Asian pop has become. and how, you know, successful it has become globally.

But essentially, you know, what BTS was trying to say was. they just didn't want music to become regionalised. And I could totally understand that. Fans were mostly supportive, won't they, as you would expect, Mark. I mean, yeah, and there was a big push, I think, from BTS fans in particular for their new album, Arirang, to be nominated. for the big awards for album of the year and song of the year. And certainly it's had the commercial impact to to justify its place in the shortlist for those.

Some fans were worried that this would just, you know, put a fence. around BTS and stop them from getting into those big categories. I don't think that would have happened. But yeah, you know, fans of other bands. in particular were supportive of the Asian category being introduced. And of course, once BTS pulled out, I think. there's a lot of other K-pop bands who are kind of rubbing their hands. in glee, thinking, yes, now we can actually win this thing. As you said though, Mark, the organisers,

they came out saying that they were really sad about BTS's decision. because it was intended to celebrate diversity rather than restrict artists. And also they said that all these artists can still compete. in general fields. So I want both of your opinions. But what do you think was so controversial about this category? If BTS could actually compete in the general genre as well? Andy. Yeah, that's right. So BTS aren't locked out. of major categories like album of the year or record of the year,

but I think the concern is more into institutional or. and psychological, like, say, once you've created an Asian category, do voters subconsciously think, oh, that's where Asians now belong? So it is great that they're creating this door. But then do voters then think, oh, you know, there's a separate room. where, you know, the Asian music lies eventually. And I think that's where the the debate lies.

And that's actually, you know, there's some precedent for that. If you look at the fact that there have been hip hop categories going back to the to the 1990s, there hasn't been a hip hop album that has won album of the year. at the Grammys since 2004. And there is a feeling amongst that community. that the genre awards do stop them from winning the really big prizes, even though they do get nominated because voters feel. like they've already had their recognition in the subcategories. And so the big categories can be reserved for Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga.

With BTS and the Grammys, though they've been nominated many times, but they've never won either. Right. And I was reading some fans speculating whether, you know, the organisers were keeping their live performance. to kind of very end to make sure that everyone keeps watching, but they never actually get to win the big award. So was there a bit of a bitterness, sourness between the two, would you say? Andy? Well, yeah. I mean, it's been a huge honor, like for for many for BTS, you know,

to be nominated and then obviously perform. I think they've been nominated five times. But for Armys, for fans, like the feeling's been BTS were now big enough. to say deliver like ratings and performances for the Grammys, but then they don't end up with any awards. So I could see that's really frustrating for fans as well. And Mark, you were talking just about the hip hop music, never winning the big award, and I was also reading.

how the Grammys have best African music and best Latin song. So have there been other kind of similar backlash criticism. when those categories were created then? Not especially. I remember when the best African category was created a couple of years ago. A lot of people were very, very enthusiastic about it. You know, that was at the point where artists like Iris Star. and Tyler and Wizkid were all, you know, really breaking through in an international way. And it felt like this was the moment when.

the wider recording industry had recognised their art. And Tyler won the first Best African song for Water, and she attended the awards. And it became, you know, a big part of her biography. The Latin Awards, again, you know, they've introduced very similar rules. to the best Asian pop category, where the songs have. to be predominantly sung in Spanish or another Latin language, which is the same as the requirements for best Asian pop.

And it doesn't seem to have precluded, for example, Bad Bunny winning multiple big awards this year. But I think there always has been an idea that. Latin pop is sidelined to an extent. I mean, not completely sidelined because there's an entire Latin Grammys award. that happens separately to the main Grammys about a month beforehand. And that's really where the Latin artists all compete. And maybe that's what the Asian artists would like to see. You know, I can imagine there being an incredible surge of support. for a K-pop J-pop C-pop award show that recognises all of these bands.

because people are working across different styles and different genres. within those particular musical scenes. So you're saying create a separate Grammys for Asian pop instead. of creating a category within the the main one? I mean, I'd like to see that. I don't think the Grammys would necessarily support that. What do you think, Andy? I think that's a great idea. And you hit the nail on the head there because Asia's enormous.

And to have everything under one umbrella kind of doesn't make sense. You know, across Korea, Japan, China, Vietnam, Indonesia. I mean, there's so many cultures, different languages. and different styles. So yeah, I definitely think. having its own category kind of makes sense as well. But I was going to ask if you're talking about J-pop, K-pop and C-pop, but they're all singing in different languages. Plus, you know, Asia seems to be the only one with this pop category. Is that right? Because Africa and Latin, they don't, they kind of just put it as Africa songs.

So what exactly is pop music? Well, just I mean, what is pop? That's the big question that stumps people every year. because pop is just shorthand for popular. And you know, if you look at I mean, K-pop's probably where I have the most knowledge, but you know, the songs, there are a synthesis of dozens of different genres. that create something entirely new. And so how do you define that? How do you put something that's made by Stray Kids up.

against something by NMIXX? You know, they sound completely different. Yeah. Especially with BTS's new album, like you've probably heard, it's got a mix of EDM, hip hop, R&B, and so many other traditional Korean influences. So yeah, that's hard to define as well. And I guess also the question is who should actually have the right to define it? Right, Mark? That is a question. But then that spans every category at the Grammys. I mean, I suppose if you're going to give out a hundred awards.

in a night, you have to draw lines somewhere. The Grammys aren't particularly good necessarily at defining those. I think you have to remember it's a very old and slow moving institution. The Grammy Awards were set up originally by a music industry. that felt threatened by the arrival of the Beatles and rock and roll, and wanted to make sure there was space on prime time television. for the old guard, for the Frank Sinatra's and all of those artists. And it was, you know, it was a reactive ceremony, and it took a long time for it to catch up with the trends of rock and roll.

and to recognise those artists. And that's still what's happening now. You know, you could have argued for a K-pop category. in 2019, probably earlier. And, you know, the fact that this is arriving now, it feels late, it feels ill considered, even though you know it, even though it's taken so long to get to this point. And it's interesting that in the last week or so, the Grammys have said they're going to go back to the drawing board, they're going to convene their awards and nominations committee.

They're going to meet with stakeholders in. the J-pop and K-pop and C-pop industries, and talk about what they got wrong and how they can correct this. And actually, that is evident as the Grammys is doing something. that they don't normally do, which is to take immediate corrective action. And that, I think, suggests that there's much more feeling strong feeling. behind the scenes than just BTS statement. Oh, that's interesting, because I was going to ask, does that show how massive, how huge BTS has become,

that losing them is too much of a blow to the Grammys? I mean, I think the Grammys are very upset about it. Harvey Mason Jr, who runs the Grammy Awards, has put out several statements saying how sad he is, but how he respects their decision as music creators. But yeah, you know, BTS have one of the biggest selling albums of the year. that got the biggest tour of the year, and the Grammys would love to have them there, because, you know, as much as winning a Grammy bestows legitimacy on BTS,

having BTS at the Grammys bestows legitimacy on the ceremony. And so, yeah, it is a blow to them. But I think it there does seem to be a hint. that other people behind the scenes are equally dissatisfied. I mean, I was looking for other Asian artists to react to this decision. by the Grammys to create this category in the first place. And Andy, I was actually asking you whether you knew. of somebody who might have an opinion on it, but I couldn't really find many.

And the ones who have spoken out were all very supportive of BTS. But I want to pick up on what you said earlier, which. I thought was interesting, where you said, you know, once BTS withdrew some of the less, less popular Asian artists thought, you know, it would actually give them a chance to, to win this particular category. So did you actually hear some positive feedback from some of the Asian artists? Well, initially, some of the Asian artists that, you know, we did bring up that conversation was around,

yeah, it is a positive first step. But again, BTS opening that door for this debate. and Armys being very dedicated and amplifying the message as well. You know, they've got a really big point. And I guess for newer artists, definitely it would be a huge recognition. But it was actually interesting. We wanted to see whether other artists would align with BTS, and other companies would stand together. and say, you know, this is a useful first step,

but it just shouldn't become the final destination. And I think it's important that this award probably won't be given out. on the main televised Grammy ceremony. They only present about 13 of the big awards during that three hour show. The rest are given out at what's called a pre-ceremony. It lasts about five hours. It streams on YouTube. It doesn't have the impact that the main ceremony would have. And if BTS felt like they were going to be, you know, segregated into that part of the broadcast,

maybe that would have felt like a demotion after they'd performed. and been nominated in the big categories before. But also, I think one thing we haven't touched on is. BTS probably wouldn't have been eligible for the best Asian pop category, because there's a stipulation that the lyrics have. to be predominantly sung in an Asian language, and 80% of their new album, Arirang, is in English. What do you think? I mean, you suggested, Mark, of possibly creating a completely separate Grammys for Asian Pop, but what would be the, I guess, the happiest compromise for BTS.

and other Asian artists and the Grammys for, you know, if the ultimate goal is to give the recognition. to the rising popularity of Asian music? Let's start with you, Andy. I think the next. step would be to continue this conversation. with the biggest labels and the biggest artists. And, you know, obviously they're going to bring a lot of ideas. to the table and just keep that conversation going. And yeah, keep it flowing and seeing what comes out of this.

Obviously, we want Asian music to be celebrated, so we want something there, but it just shouldn't be treated as regional artists. or be after becoming global artists. Yeah I agree. You know, I think the introduction of the category felt. like it was a positive overture to the industries in those countries. I can see why people do feel like it's not appropriate at this point.

But what the Grammys have been doing for several years. is making sure that there is increased representation of artists. from across Asia on their voting academy. You know, in the K-pop world, BTS have been voters at the Grammys since 2019. Recently, they've added members of 17 of Enhypen. of Stray Kids of Le Sserafim and. And that is making sure that there is a voice for those artists in. in the voting categories. You know, both for this new award, but also in the main four prizes, album of the year, song of the year, record of the year, and best new artist.

And the idea is that as K-pop, J-pop, C-pop become bigger commercially. and they already are quite big commercially, that will bleed into the main categories naturally. as a result of the Academy expanding its scope. But obviously the big first step has backfired a bit. You know, the Grammys is built around respect for songcraft, and by that they mean Tin Pan Alley songcraft. And you know, they love a Bruno Mars who will be a throwback artist.

and refer to his Al Green's and, you know, his Marvin Gaye's at the same time as making pop music. And K-pop is such a kind of Frankenstein's monster. of 20 different styles all in one song. Hugely ambitious, but not songwriting in the traditional way. that I think Grammy voters have a hard time understanding it. And there's probably an education campaign that needs to go in, you know,

go on within the Grammy community before the music can be recognised. alongside pop peers like Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga and Beyonce. We'll see what the organisers do about this controversial category. But thank you so much for joining me, Andy and Mark. Thank you. Thanks very much. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any thoughts or comments on what we covered in this episode.

or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.