Which university degrees will survive AI job disruption? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

We're all worried about whether or not our jobs will one day be replaced by AI. But Ajeng, in Indonesia, a government official has said. that some university degrees may have to be closed if they are irrelevant. That's right Mariko. So recently, one top official from Indonesian educational ministry said. that too many young people are now studying majors that will not equip them. in today's or future job market. Now, this has created a bit of backlash.

And you know, Mariko, this is a big discussion in Asia. It has been for many years now. And there's a real push by countries like China, for example, to get young people studying things. like engineering, science and technology. But I guess the big question is, with the threat of AI, are there any safe subjects that students should be studying? As always, I'm Mariko in Singapore. and this is Asia Pacific from the BBC World Service.

Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. And following this story closely in Jakarta. is Ajeng from the BBC World Service. Welcome to the pod. Hi. Thank you for having me. And I also have Bill Birtles, the editor of this podcast. Welcome back. Hello, Mariko. So, Ajeng, can you tell me. what was exactly said to spark this rather heated debate in Indonesia.

about irrelevant degrees or not? Okay. So in late April, the Secretary general of the Ministry. of Higher Education, Science and Technology, Badri Munir Sukoco, told a symposium in Bali that universities may need. to evaluate, even close majors, if deemed irrelevant. He didn't exactly specify what majors they think are irrelevant, but he did say this is needed to be done to reduce the mismatch.

between University graduates and the industry. It has created a bit of a backlash, but not long after, the Minister of the ministry clarified that they will not close any majors, but they will work with the universities to make them stay relevant. to the development of technology, science and industry. So relevant or irrelevant?

It kind of sounds like they're based on what is it, the term STEM science, technology, engineering and mathematics are. kind of the subjects that they want students to study before 2020. The data that has mostly been cited is Indonesia only produced eight. out of 10,000 people graduating from STEM majors. And that's pretty low. The newer data also still illustrate that.

So about 18% of Indonesian students are graduating from STEM, STEM majors. What's been the reaction from students who are studying non-STEM subjects? Because, I mean, I studied journalism. I mean, one can argue that that could soon become irrelevant. But what's been the backlash from students? Generally, the students oppose. of the government's idea to close majors that are not related to STEM. They also question the same question that you asked,

what is relevant and irrelevant. So they're asking the definition of that. They also have skepticism. So when the government say we want to do this so that it match the industry, they were asking like, uh, what industry where? Bill, I guess this is not a unique debate in Indonesia, is it? It's been kind of happening across Asia, pushing children to choose those STEM subjects. Oh big time.

And, this actually reminds me a little bit of a initiative. by the former Australian Morrison government about six years ago. So they tried to push students towards choosing degrees that align with, you know, the jobs of the future by using fees, university fees. So the idea was simply make humanities degrees more expensive and make STEM degrees, mathematics, engineering, science cheaper.

And there was some interesting research from the University of Melbourne. that has shown in the subsequent years it didn't really work. And only about 1.5% of students applying to become undergraduates. actually changed their major or their degree program based on the costs. either too expensive or because they got a better deal doing STEM. Now, the researchers at the University of Melbourne, they attributed that. to the system they have in Australia, where most of those undergraduates.

are not paying their university fees up front in the first place. They are basically getting a loan from the government and years later, when they enter the workforce, then they start to pay back the fee. So the takeaway from that example is. that using money as the carrot and stick to try. and influence what young people want to study doesn't necessarily work. I mean, even if they pay me, I wouldn't probably have picked science.

as my major given my result from high school. I was saying earlier, Bill, how about 18% of Indonesian graduates come out. with STEM degrees, which is quite low, I guess, in comparison relatively. Because I think Malaysia is like 37%, Singapore 34%. Malaysia is the standout star of Southeast Asia. I mean, the figures are all kind of different, right? Because they depend on the year. But I've seen figures saying. it's as high as about 43% of university graduates in Malaysia.

have STEM degrees. And it's partly because, you know, Malaysia's had. car manufacturing semiconductor industry for many years. So the Malaysians are kind of in a league of their own for Southeast Asia. But, other countries in the region, there are some significant differences between, who has a lot of these Stem graduates and countries that don't have that many. Because you said manufacturing, you know, all those technology jobs. in Malaysia which can apply to, I think, Japan, my home country.

But I know that the government has been trying. to increase the number of STEM graduates. I don't think they've been that successful there, are they? They're on a par with Indonesia. It's about 20%, right. It's I mean, it's not it's not that high, which is kind of surprising. because Japan does have a very big manufacturing industry still. And Japan's kind of a good example, right? Because about a decade ago, the government, uh, basically urged,

I mean, I know they've got a huge sector of private universities up there. The government urged them to put more resources into STEM education, you know, offer more degree programs and so forth. And then more tangibly, a few years ago, the Japanese government had a fund. Which is roughly two to 2.5 billion USD, and basically said to the university sector, you can have a slice of the pie, but it has to go towards science, engineering those sorts of degrees or those sorts of facilities.

So from what I've read, Japan's university sector has. to some degree been moving more towards Stem education. But ultimately, if people if students have free choice. as to what they want to study, what's the old saying? You can bring a horse to water, but you can't necessarily make it drink. I think the issue with Japan as well is. despite its population shrinking, low birth rate, not enough children, and yet there are 600 plus private universities,

which I think the government wants to reduce to about 250 by 2040. But I remember one of the big push by the Japanese government managing. was to get more women, more young, young ladies. to take up those STEM subjects, which they haven't really been successful in Japan. What about in Indonesia or across Southeast Asia is the kind of gender. and an issue when it comes to choosing Stem as subjects for Indonesia?

Interestingly. So according to UNESCO report in 2025, the women participation in STEM workforce is still pretty low, about 8%. But this is also an interesting point. Around 35 to 37% of women enroll in universities in STEM majors. So there's quite a big gap of, you know, this many women goes to college taking STEM majors, but then in the workforce, it doesn't translate.

I think the the biggest barrier that this woman face is social barriers. There's still a lot of gender stereotypes in STEM workforce. Um, there's also like this double burden. that Indonesian women culturally inherited. So, um, there are push from their family, for example, that women should stay at home and raise their family. But I think, yeah, the potential is there. I mean, as, as far as researchers go at the moment,

uh, there are interest from women entering the Stem field. But my question is what? So what does somebody do if a woman graduates and she's got a degree. in engineering, but then she doesn't go on to work in engineering does. What tends to happen in Indonesia? Does she work in something that she's overqualified for or does she not work? What's what tends to happen? Yeah. So what possibly happened is. because there's only so much high tech skills required in the work field.

So these women, when they graduate, they either one, they will be underemployed, which means they work in the lower, lower than their skill, and then they could be unemployed. And then the other thing, and this is this happens a lot, they will switch fields. So they will not work in Stem workforce, but they will go and work in other places. But the reality on the field is there's not job.

There's not a lot of jobs that require this high skill technical person. So they are not absorbed by the the industry. I mean, that almost sounds quite similar. to what's been happening in China as well, isn't it? Because they have pretty high number of graduates with STEM degrees. And yet youth unemployment is a huge issue in China. Bill. So quite interesting. China, right. You know, top down centralized government, their university sector,

once again, it's a mix of public and private tertiary institutions, but the government very rigidly defines. what sort of degrees and majors those universities can offer each year. It has a list. Basically says these are the courses you can offer. These are the courses that, well, if you're off the list, you cannot just independently come up with a course and offer it to students. So in recent years, and they chop and change this every year.

depending on the national priorities for China's development. But in recent years, as you'd imagine, there has been new courses being developed around robotics, around low altitude engineering for drones, you know, things that are related to AI. So universities, if they've got the capability, can start offering these courses. At the same time, they also chop courses off the list, basically saying to colleges. across the country, you can no longer offer these to students.

Irrelevant. Yeah, yeah, completely. And, and things like public management, you can imagine in China, massive bureaucracy, huge state owned enterprises, doing. a public public administration degree would have seemed like a pretty safe bet. over the years because there are a lot of government jobs. Obviously, the Chinese government felt there were too many people graduating. from universities with those sorts of qualifications, and so those have been scaled back. Things like languages. There is obviously a shifting sense of the importance.

of translation and interpreting and those sorts of things. Given that that's an area where AI has already shown it can excel. Also to China is a bit more inward looking now instead of, looking outwards for economic development, it's increasingly looking inwards. So perhaps that's a part of the reason why the government. would not prioritise language degrees in the same way that it used to. So basically supply and demand in the end, students are coming out. of high school and they're looking at what's actually available.

And it might be a case of there aren't many intake positions available. for something in communications or in some sort of language degree, but there are plenty of places available at universities in their city. for engineering or robotics or whatever it is. So that's so different to how universities and many other countries. operate, where they basically have the autonomy to come up. with whatever degree program they want and offer that to students, often for a commercial reason to basically try to attract students.

And you get this problem. And I think it's probably a problem in Japan by the sounds of things, probably a problem in Indonesia, by the sounds of things. Certainly in Australia too, where a lot of students want to study something. they're interested in, you know, social sciences and universities. therefore respond by offering social science degrees aplenty. And then the governments get worried and say, well, hang on, what are we going to do with all those graduates? And as you mentioned, AI is now the big threat. It's not just in Asia that we keep hearing about layoffs.

because the jobs can be replaced. And also newly grads not getting entry level job. And is that something that you hear concerns about Ajeng in, in Indonesia, people worried about their jobs being replaced by AI or not just yet. I think the discussion around AI and in Indonesia is not yet to that phase. I mean, we don't see a mass layoff because of they are replaced by AI.

But you're right. I mean, in the future, I think this, a lot of jobs that can be replaced by AI is the entry level job. But that also becoming a paradox because fresh graduates, when they want to enter the job field, then they're looking. for these entry level jobs, right? And when they are replaced by AI, what options do they have? Mhm. Yeah. I really feel for that generation.

because I feel like the current newly grads who are struggling to get. that entry level jobs are the ones who got really hit hard. in their high school years because of the Covid 19 pandemic. I do wonder, though, Bill, with AI, Those STEM subjects. that we've been talking about that the governments have been pushing. I mean, one could argue that those are the jobs. that can be replaced by robots or machines. And maybe, you know, those subjects like education, nursing, you know,

those are the jobs that still require human beings. Hosting a podcast. That can probably be done by an AI robot. I've seen I've seen it before, but not. Not quite yet. I don't think the humanoid robots are quite there, but watch out. Yeah. You know, software engineers, that's like something that's been. in programmers that's been talked about so much. Right. And we saw some massive global job cuts. in the software or just in the tech industry. You know, Oracle, the software giant announced. about up to 30000 job cuts earlier this year across multiple countries.

Meta. You know, Mark Zuckerberg's Meta I think it was 8000 job cuts. So you're seeing that it's not just a case of maybe AI is able. to replicate the work that humans in the tech industry are doing. It's also that a lot of those tech companies need to free up capital. to actually invest in AI infrastructure. So we already have tangibly seen. some job losses linked to AI in the last few years.

We continually see people speculating about things. like paralegal work, administrative work. Those are the sorts of tasks. You know, Ajeng basically talked. about entry level work that potentially could be replaceable, but you were just talking about, you know, the human touch. and things like nursing, you know, if you're in a hospital. Uh, no matter how good the humanoid robot is, I feel people will always demand that it is a human, um,

who can provide not just the medical support, but the emotional support. And so from everything we're seeing at the moment, it actually looks. like those jobs that involve EQ, emotional intelligence, reading the room, intuition, all those sorts of things. Many of them are related to the humanities, that those sorts of jobs will ultimately persist. And it may be if you are in some sort of more technical field, that those skills are more easily replaceable by AI.

So this kind of push for STEM could actually. Backfire. In the coming years, depending on what happens with AI. Maybe we don't know because it's still early days. But I guess the big question of which. jobs will be replaced by AI will continue. Thank you so much for joining me Ajeng and Bill. Thanks, Mariko. Thank you for having me. You've been watching Asia Pacific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko in Singapore.

If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email Asia-Pacific at bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.