Which foods divide Asia the most? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Honestly, I don't think Singaporeans and Malaysians and Indonesians care that much. about what the national food is. until a country claims one as their own, that's when we get passionate about it because we feel like it's stolen. It's something that might be stolen from us. You might think food brings people together, but. on the internet it has at times led to heated debates. Food disputes are most intense between close neighbours. like Singapore and Malaysia or China and South Korea. And we're not just talking about who can claim dishes like chilli crab or bibimbap.

Countries are also arguing over who came up. with the food markets, known as hawker centres, and the dispute over the so-called king of tropical fruits, Durian, has even involved the United Nations. I'm in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have Asia Specific's very own Derek Cai representing Singapore.

and also Rachel Lee representing South Korea. And guys, we've got quite a feast here. I think this is the first and probably the only time. that we'll be allowed to bring in food into the studio. For listeners who can't see Rachel, do you want to describe what we've got here? Right. So I was asked to bring Korean food, and I thought maybe I could bring Korean barbecue, but then, like, look at this table. I can't bring Korean barbecue. So I just compromised with these two dishes. So this is kimchi.

Right. So this is. Can you smell it? Yeah, I love kimchi. I love the smell. Do you like the smell, though? Yeah, I do, I. Do love the smell. Do you actually love the smell? I do actually love the smell. It is, like, the best hangover cure. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, okay. I think I'm a bad Korean. I don't like the smell of it, to be honest. I don't like the smell. But I love the taste. So this is fermented cabbage with, spicy.

red pepper, and also seafood paste and salt. So this is like Korean soul food, like Mariko explained. Like how this is so good for hangover. We have it not only for hangover, but we have it in every proper Korean meal. So you would have this as a side dish. So this is like our national pride. So don't mess with us. We'll discuss whether it's Korean or or not later. And another food I have here is. Actually it's quite.

Heavy. heavy. It's because yeah, it's a stone pot. Yeah. It's a stone pot. So it's like a clay pot. So it's called bibimbap actually. So if you have it in like a. like just a normal bowl, then you would call it bibimbap. So bibimbap is basically. a rice with all these seasoned vegetable toppings. And you will have beef in it as well.

And then you have this red pepper paste as well. So you put it here and then you mix it up and then you will have it that way. But if this bibimbap is served in this stone pot, then you would call it bibimbap because it basically means stone pot in Korean. So. Before we get too hungry, can we talk about what we've got from Singapore? Okay. We have here chicken rice. It's exactly what as it's called. It's chicken and rice.

But it's basically either roasted chicken or steamed chicken. But what's special about this dish is the way the rice is cooked. It's cooked in fragrant chicken stock. That's what makes this dish special. And also the chili. It's it's one of the national dishes. of Singapore or what the government wants as Singapore's national dish. Yeah. Let's get to that a bit later because all these dishes are. in dispute, which is why we brought them here. Let's start with something that we weren't allowed to bring.

into the studio because of its smell. Durian. I mean, it's not even a dish, and yet it's Malaysia and Indonesia fighting over it. Why is that? Derek? Well. I mean, yes, we weren't allowed to bring durians in. We tried but it's too smelly. For those who don't know what this it's like, It's called the king of fruits. Tropical fruit in Singapore. It has a spiky exterior. It's really pungent and smelly. I personally don't like durian. I think I'm going to get a lot of hate mail for this. as a Southeast Asian. But it tastes really sweet.

It's in dispute because everyone in Southeast Asia loves it. Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, we all grow it. I think the dispute happened when Malaysia raised it, wanted it to be their national fruit and asked UNESCO, a UN body. to make it their national fruit. And Indonesia was like, no, you know what? We grow more durians here in Indonesia. If anyone should have it as a national fruit, it should be us. But it's not. But it's very common to find these kinds of disputes in Southeast Asia,

because it's not durians. It happened with laksa or rendang, basically dishes that you can find almost everywhere in Southeast Asia, especially in multi multi-ethnic cities or countries like Indonesia. and Malaysia and Singapore, because pre-colonial times, before we were broken up into different countries, 19th century, there was free flow of trade, free flow of people, free flow of communities, free flow of recipes.

So the food that, that we dispute over it came from all of us. It's a shared history, correct? Shared history. It was all very fluid. And so it's now when we bicker. about it, it's almost sort of like cultural amnesia. We forget that we all used to be considered a region. We are still a region. Just we didn't used to be different countries. I guess that kind of shared history is similar. in East Asia, Northeast Asia.

So I'm thinking China, South Korea and Japan. with some shared history obviously a lot longer time ago. And but when it comes to kimchi, to me that's very Korean. So I was quite surprised to learn that China is also claiming it as its own. Why is that, Rachel? Well, I mean, I'm Korean, so let me just, be as neutral as possible. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. Right. So this all started.

So Koreans also think, I mean, it's so clear to Koreans. that this is Korean food, but then, like, some Chinese started to argue that kimchi is one of their pao cai. So pao cai is a Sichuanese pickle. So it's another fermented, vegetable in China. And this actually reignited. when ISO, which is the International Organization. of Standardisation certified pao cai's recipe, but when they did it,

they made sure that this only applies to pao cai, not kimchi. But then the Chinese state media started to report this news. and then start to mention about kimchi as one of the Pao cai. And this angered South Koreans. Oh, so basically you're saying they're saying that pao cai is like an umbrella? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Interesting. But kimchi in Japan is seen as, like, really good diet food.

Because it's fermented. It's obviously has lots of vegetables. So it was interesting when I was reading how some of those, like, magazines say, make sure you let you look where it was produced, where it was made, because some of them are actually made in China. So what's that about? Like China is actually producing kimchi that's sold as Korean kimchi. Right. So this is where it gets really interesting. So, so Korea. So I told you about like how kimchi originated from Korea and stuff like that.

But then because, like, people are all into this K-food these days, thanks to all K-pop and like K-drama, they want to try Korean food. And thanks to this, K-food exports went up and kimchi is one of them. It reached all time high export last year. But then the imports that are coming in, the kimchi that's coming into Korea is also really, really high. And it surpasses the export.

So we're seeing a trade deficit when it comes to kimchi. So you're buying more kimchi from outside. Yeah. From outside export. Yeah. Wow. And where are we getting all these kimchi from? China. China. So it's hard to. argue with what they're saying. Right. Yeah. That's their I think that's how they support their claim. We also have bibimbap again I thought bibimbap is pretty Korean. But also China is claiming that as well. Is that right?

Yeah. I'm glad you say it's all Korean. What? Everything. Oh my God. Yeah. So it's another dispute between South Korea and China. The bibimbap. It all started from Jilin province. So that's the northeastern part of China. And Jilin province actually designated bibimbap. as their provincial-level heritage. So if you think about this provincial level, it doesn't look so special. But you have to know that in China, if it's designated as provincial level,

it can oftentimes promoted to national level. So this is a very serious issue to South Koreans. So from China's perspective, what they're trying to do is because China has so many minor ethnic groups, they want to bring them all together as like 'One China'. So after the designation, Jilin province started. to like do a lot of advertisement and commercial about bibimbap being their.

proovincial heritage. And Koreans are just worrying about this because, like people outside from China or Korea, if they see this advertisement, they're going to get confused whether bibimbap, which is today well known as Korean food, is it actually Korean or China? It's it's it almost feels like it's all about not just history, but also branding and how a country is promoting a dish as its own. Can I just say I mean, Japan has taken so many other countries dishes.

I don't am I going to get hate mail for this? But I feel like Japan actually doesn't claim it. Like, okay, the Japanese pizza. It's definitely not a pizza in the eyes of Italians, but we kind of, you know, label it as as Italian. Japanese curry definitely doesn't taste anything like Indian curry. But we still, you know, respect the fact that it came from India. Yeah. Even, you know, all the all the food that we got from China or Korea. We have yakiniku, but, you know, we call it Korean barbecue.

Chinese food is Chinese food. I was quite fascinated about listening to this, all this, the ramen history. That's north-east. Yeah, it's. actually from China. Ramen is like the origin of it is China. So you would get it in, like a Chinese restaurant in Japan, but because, like, a traditional Chinese restaurant would be quite expensive. So I would go with my grandparents and my parents. when they're paying for it, you know, we would go,

but, you know, as a student or as a young worker, you wouldn't be able to afford a proper Chinese restaurant. And that's when ramen became quite popular as an. affordable, you know, originated from China. with some extra ingredients that Japanese chefs added. So that's ramen. So it's funny. Because I think to Japanese people, ramen, which is lamian in in Chinese, is Chinese food. But to anyone outside of Japan. They see ramen as an inherently Japanese food.

Right? But I guess it is a lot more intense among close neighbors, isn't it? And you were talking about shared history between Malaysia. and Indonesia and of course, Malaysia versus Singapore. when it comes to food that they claim the dishes that they claim, but also even like the concept of hawker centres, which to viewers. and listeners outside of Southeast Asia. What do you, how do you describe it? Food markets? Food court. But yeah. So hawkers are everywhere right?

Hawkers have traditionally like before when you're hawking. on the street, you're selling food on the street you have food carts. This happened like in the 18th, 19th century. And then Singapore decided to regulate them. because it's unhygienic for them to keep to just sell food on the street. So they put them in a center. So that became a hawker center. But you still get hawkers everywhere. If you've been to Bangkok, people sell chicken rice, people sell chicken. rice is found in Thailand as well.

on the streets you go to Malaysia, you see people selling food on the streets. Those are hawkers, but they're not put in centres. like Singapore because of the way Singapore operates. We like rules. We like people in confined. spaces. Of how clean each hawker is. Yeah, that's how Singapore operates. Yeah, yeah. Singapore. Also, I think the government wants or has said. that the chicken rice or chilli crab should be one of the national dishes. But if you line up like ten Singaporeans, they ask them what the national dish is.

They will all give you different answers because we all, especially in Singapore. or any multi multi-ethnic society like Malaysia or Indonesia, we've got Chinese, we've got Singaporean, Chinese, Singaporean, Indian, Singaporean, Malay, Singaporean. and others. We call them others, but they're actually Eurasians. We all have different food cuisines that we think represents our society, so it's hard to say.

So we've been talking passionately about food and which countries they belong to. I actually spoke to an expert on this. Jenny Dorsey, she's a chef. She's also studied food history. She's even done a research on hawker centres that you were talking about. So let's hear what she has to say about why people get so worked up. about this food dispute, especially on the internet. I think with claiming the dishes, there's so many questions I have. about like why we want to claim the dish, like what is it that we are actually trying to claim when.

we're saying someone gets to say, this is mine, what does that mean? Is it the the dish that people eat most frequently? Is it the dish that people feel most sentimental towards? How would we measure that? That's very difficult. Is the dish that or is the dish that sells the most? That has a totally different connotation. When I read the comments on my own social and other people's social, when people are truly getting at it is it's not really about the dish anymore. It's not about claiming the dish. It's about how they feel about it. It's about feeling, of being able to say like, well, I want my country to claim this, this because I feel a certain way.

I want to feel a certain sense of belonging. I want to feel a certain sense of ownership, perhaps. And why I'm arguing so passionately is because I want that. I want to claim that aspect of my identity. I don't want you to take it away from me. It's interesting, isn't it, how Jenny was talking about, you know, it's about memories, you know, because people remember food. and you think about your grandparents. or you know, who you actually share that meal with. And that's why people feel really passionately about Rachel. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, it's been two months since I moved to Singapore,

and the first thing I bought when I, um, when I started to rent a house here, I the first thing I bought was actually kimchi. So food is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically food is like it feels. It makes you feel like it's it's your home. Honestly, I don't think Singaporeans and Malaysians and Indonesians care. that much about what the national identity, what the national food is, until a country claims one as their own.

That's when we get passionate about it, because we feel like it's stolen. It's something that might be stolen from us. Yeah, that was. What I was going to ask. Like, does it even matter to, you know, you and I, ordinary people, whether, you know, chicken rice is from where or, you know, kimchi is. from where like, aside from ego, national pride, identity, it doesn't. Do you think that actually has an impact on your identity? No, I don't think it's got an impact on my identity. I think, um, it's just something it's it's friendly rivalry on the internet.

Like, if Malaysia wants to claim chicken rice as their own, Singaporeans are like, no, it's ours because we eat chicken rice. You know, we talk about it, but we're not gonna punch them in the face, right? I think for economic reasons, it makes sense for countries. or governments to want to promote, like, say, Singapore wants to be the kitchen of Southeast Asia. So you get a lot of tourists come to Singapore and eat good food. or what they say is good food, then it makes sense because you get money. Yeah, right. Food is soft power. These.

days. Yeah, it's soft power. When I go abroad, I mean, people don't just ask me about, like, BTS and Blackpink anymore. They want to, like, find out the authentic Korean. So when I moved to Singapore, several people people actually asked me, like, whether I could actually try Korean restaurant and then let them know. that where's the authentic one? So I think. That was me. Yeah, you were also. One of them. You're also one of them. And I think it was someone in our, uh, in the Bureau as well. Um, so asked me, like, if I could try these,

all these Korean restaurants and tell them the authentic, like, restaurants. so that they could try their authentic food. So. Yeah. What annoys me the most is when you go to, like, European countries or America, and then you walk into what it says on the door as Japanese restaurant. and you eat it and you go, this is not Japanese. Yeah, that's the most offensive. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is what. Do you think is Japan's national dish? to you. And what is the actual national dish? Does it have a national dish?

I mean, sushi would obviously be the most, most recognized. Dish. Yeah, but you know me, every time I go to Japan on a deployment or whatever, I have like a list of things that I need to eat. I literally calculate count. I have seven days, which means three times, you know, seven meals that I can have and start like allocating. which dish I want to have on day. What, you have a checklist? Yeah, I literally have a checklist. Um.

But yeah, I think is definitely usually at the top of my list. And also there's this udon restaurant in Tokyo. that I cannot complete my trip without eating there. Because. It's noodles. As Korean. Like, we could be very, very like. this discussion could be, could turn into like very heated conversation. Because in between these two powers, China and Japan, and we have a history of colonization. We have a history of being attacked. We have a history of being influenced.

We can be very, very sensitive when it comes to food dispute, and especially if it's clearly like Korean. Yeah. I mean, yeah, because you were saying earlier how Singaporeans. and Malaysians and Indonesians, they wouldn't, you know, punch. in each other's face over food disputes, I think. Yeah, it's different for Korean. It's different. There. No. Yeah. Should we leave it there and start eating some of the food. Thank you Rachel. And thank. You. Derek. I've already started.

You've been watching Asia Pacific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we've covered in this episode, I think we might get quite a few or any other stories from the region. Please leave us a comment below. We might not reply, but we'll we'll read them for sure. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. But for now, thanks for watching and see you next time.