What makes a Pokemon card worth millions? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Actually, I used to have a lot more cards, but now I think right now about 200 cards. And I think the ballpark figure, the back of my mind is about. maybe four to five million SGD. Wow. So he's talking about his Pokemon card collection. Derek. We aren't jealous at all, are we? Super jealous. He lives in a totally different tax bracket. Um, it's a huge multi-billion dollar industry, but. the card trading card of the business is actually only a very tiny fraction. of the entire Pokémon media franchise, which we will talk about. And it's one of the world's most successful media franchises, isn't it?

So we're asking what's behind this frenzy and for how long can it last? As always, I'm Mariko in Singapore. and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Specific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. So Derek Cai from our podcast team is our resident Pokemon fan. And you just also got back from a Pokemon center in Okinawa.

Yeah, amateur Pokemon fan. I have to say amateur. I'm not a card collector. Pokemon center. For those who don't know what Pokemon Center is, it's in the game. Pokemon Center is where trainers bring their Pokemon to to get healed. or to buy like medicine, but in real life an actual Pokemon Center. is where people go to buy merchandise like soft toys or like a new game. or like a keychain or just to meet other Pokemon fans. And where I nearly went bankrupt going. with my children and them just picking everything.

I mean, I almost went bankrupt when I was there. And I also have Jordan Middler, who's a gaming journalist. And you came highly recommended by one of our colleagues at the BBC. because you're an avid collector, do you want to tell our audience a bit. about yourself and your incredible collection behind you? Yes, and thank you for having me. I am a journalist from the UK. I'm the host of VGC, the video game podcast.

But when I'm not doing that boring day job stuff, I'm collecting every piece of Pokemon merchandise ever released. And it's one of those things that I've been with Pokemon my entire life. But now that I am older and I have disposable income, and this job has afforded me the ability to travel around the world, that has meant that my house is has been even more so taken over by Pikachus. As you can, as you can see by my corner here. Yeah. Derek has been like admiring your collection. and we actually met someone quite similar, didn't we, Derek.

Here in Singapore. His name is Chew Zhan Lun and he has a pretty incredible collection as well. So let's hear what he had to say. Hi. I'm the founder of CRTL Collectibles. So I've been collecting Pokemon cards since 2024. But of course, like since young, you know, growing up, I used to watch Pokemon and I played, you know, the console games. Yeah. So actually I love Pokemon since all the way since young, but I didn''t get into this hobby, like in terms of graded cards. Um, until about two and a half years ago.

Oh, actually, I used to have a lot more cards, but now I think right now about 200 over cards. And I think the ballpark figure, the back of my mind is about. maybe four to five million SGD. So what's the most expensive card that you've got? Oh, that's the that'll be the Illustrator card, the PSA nine. And how much is that worth? Uh, I think the last offer I received was about 2.5 million USD, which is approximately three million plus SGD. Yeah.

So Jordan, um, his collection, he said, is worth four to five million SGD, which is about three to four million USD, which sounds to anybody. who's not into Pokemon cards or anything, trading sounds a bit crazy, but there are many more expensive cards globally, aren't there? Yes, it's been an interesting thing over the past couple of years. Since the pandemic, the trading card game has exploded in popularity.

But what that also means is the cards that were printed back. in the day from the original run of Pokemon, or from periods in history when the Pokemon franchise wasn't as popular. as it is now, have become an incredibly desirable. And because these cards are finite, it has become a huge collector's arms race, and it's caused some friction within the community because people. From my perspective, I just want to have cards. that I can open and enjoy in my collection. But because there has become a almost meta business around Pokemon,

it's becoming harder and harder to get them. Though, The Pokemon Company is trying to fight that. Yeah. And um, I always get the brothers confused, but it's Logan Paul, isn't it? who bought a card for $5.3 million in 2021. and sold it for almost, I guess triple. So is that is that the most expensive one? Yes. And this card was the Illustrator. This is a card that was given out as a prize in Japan back. during the original run of Pokemon, and it's an odd situation.

I remember learning about the Illustrator when I was a young Pokemon fan, just getting on the internet, and it was a bit of a curiosity, but I couldn't have possibly predicted at that point. that it would become the most valuable piece of Pokemon merchandise ever. And for the vast majority of people that that's nowhere near their mind, they just want to be able to walk into a shop. and buy cards like I've been doing for 30 years at this point. Um, Jordan just talked about how it got kind of really crazy since the pandemic,

but Derek, do you want to just talk us through how it started, when it started and how it just kind of developed over the time? Well, yeah, since the pandemic, like Jordan said, right. Um, that people were locked down. and then they rediscovered Pokemon like me and Jordan. We are millennials in our 30s, uh, mid 30s, early mid 30s and. rediscovered the joys of Pokemon cards, and then it became really popular. And, you know, we grew up with Pokemon, right?

Um, I think it was 1990, about 2000 when I first started playing Pokemon. I was like in late primary school, early secondary school. And then back then I was a kid, fell in love with Pokemon. Now I still love Pokemon, but have disposable cash, cash to buy cards or play the games. And, um, you know, he was Jordan was talking about. how the it's the earlier versions of the cards that are most expensive. because back then when the cards first came out, nobody was thinking about collecting them. Right? They were thinking we were playing them, we were trading them.

So, you know, and like you said, there was a finite amount. And, uh, it's, you know, kids, we were like, what? 12, 13 with our grubby hands, grubby fingers, not all of the, a lot of the cards were destroyed. or like not in good condition. Only very few of them survived. That's why they are so expensive now. And in every lucrative market, you get sort of bad actors, scalpers. They come in and they buy up all the cards to try to sell them, and it's caused the price to skyrocket. Yeah, I thought it was interesting.

Zhan Lun talked about it as like you guys being like boys who just grew up, but with a lot more money to spend on your childhood hobby. But I also thought Jordan, he was telling me. that he was a day trader or he still is. He trades stocks and he saw some similarities. between Pokemon card trading and stock trading. So my question is, you know, you said this frenzy has caused some frictions. within the community because my question is, is this actually.

about your love and passion for Pokemon or is it actually, you know, flipping and making a profit? There's definitely two sides to it. There is the people that are hardcore fans, the people that have been here for multiple generations. The Pokemon franchise touches their lives. in a way that only really Disney has to an older generation Pokemon. as the Disney of the last 30 years. And those people feel like the people that are coming into the hobby.

just to make money. They are tourists. They are larpers in the space. They couldn't name. You couldn't name five Pokemon if they wanted to. They just know the Pokemon that are associated with extremely valuable cards. And it puts the Pokemon company in a difficult spot because in the last year, over ten billion trading cards were printed by the Pokemon Company, and that still hasn't met demand. They have bought multiple factories. across the world that are running 24 hours to print Pokemon cards. That has never been more Pokemon cards printed than right now,

but because the supply is, um, still not as much as the general community. plus the scalper community wants, it becomes difficult. for the average fan who can't not go to work and sit in a shop. until it's restocked to actually be involved as involved in the community. as these people who has, who have made it their entire business, who have made it a full time job to sell Pokemon cards. but not really care about or love Pokemon. I just feel sad because you you know.

that the cards are so artificially inflated. There's some cards that are legitimately rare. Now the Illustrator is legitimately rare. You see cards that, as you mentioned, you took to school, you shoved in their pocket, your pocket. So it's strange to see them encased in plastic. and sold as this kind of thing that is just to be looked upon. and not touched or enjoyed or played with. That's not Pokemon to me. That's something different. You, Jordan, you mentioned the company behind Pokemon, the Pokemon Company,

being caught up in this very difficult position. I actually spoke to the boss of the Pokemon Company last year. when he said that the company actually doesn't benefit at all. financially from this frenzy. So let's hear what he had to say. His name is Tsunekazu Ishihara. If the cards are rare or seen as vintage, their value goes up. It's not our place to say that they're not valuable, but it's a business completely outside of us. In Japan, we call it the secondhand business,

where people sell their finished books or games, and that prevents new products from being sold. When the second hand market becomes more valuable because of rarity, that is problematic because our business is affected. But I want to ask Derek a question, because you were saying. that you don't necessarily agree with his comment. that the company doesn't benefit at all. Yeah. I mean, I don't agree to a certain extent because, yes, they don't benefit financially from the trade.

Like if I sold you a card for $1 million, they don't get a cut, right? And obviously they need to see be seen. as a company that's doing the right thing. It's obviously against the nature of the game. Like to trade a card that's worth two or $3 billion. But this trade helps keep the brand alive, right? And also, there are so many, like Jordan said, there are. so many manufacturing plants now producing these cards. They if there is trade, if people continue to trade, then they would have.

to keep printing cards, which means they get to sell more cards. So when there's demand, obviously the company will make some money. And if the brand it keeps the branding alive, then don't they benefit even if it's not direct? What do you think, Jordan? I can see that perspective. I think the the issue for them is the scale. at which it is happening now all legendary are kind of, um, uh, vintage brands like Pokemon, Disney, Star Wars.

There is always going to be that kind of third party fan funded kind of community in trading. But I think what the Pokemon company, um, has a problem with now is. that that has dominated basically all conversation. in the space. For the Pokemon Company, Sure, they love collectors of our age, and they're doing a lot this year. for the anniversary that pulls on the heartstrings of people of our age. But for Pokemon to survive, they have to have that young audience.

It is a multigenerational franchise. in a way that virtually no other franchise is. And if there is not a pipeline for young players to engage. with all elements of the Pokemon franchise, especially the cards, I think that's where the Pokemon Company has a real problem. But also interesting, Jordan, what you talked about this generational thing. because I still really vividly remember about this interview with the boss. So I went through all my questions and then I said, I need you to keep. ten minutes of this interview so I could ask you my kids questions.

because they were so obsessed with Pokemon at the time. And I asked him like, so where did Ash (or Satoshi in Japanese). Where did he go? And his just eyes just suddenly like lit up. and was like, oh, that's a really good question. Like he didn't do that to like any of my questions, but he's clearly very keen. to, you know, keep entertaining the children with his products. I want to talk about this empire because card and card trading is only. like a tip of the iceberg of this Pokemon empire, isn't it?

So, Jordan, can you just- do you want to tell us. because you've got a whole load of collections, not just cards. Can you just tell us about the entire empire and what that involves? So Pokemon, the center of the Pokemon universe are the video games, and the next video game has been announced. Nintendo Switch to Pokemon Winds and Waves. And around that then obviously you introduce 100 new Pokemon, for example, and all of those Pokemon have to have plush toys. and they have to appear in the anime. And then they get trading cards,

and then they get statues and then they go on t shirts. It's this, it is a, a well oiled machine. where because of the nature of Pokemon, every five or so years, you refresh, you introduce new Pokemon, you still maintain the 1025 Pokemon that still exist. But you. You use this as a jumping off point. There will be young people for whom Pokemon Winds. and Waves is their first Pokemon game, and they will look at the Pokemon that I talk about. with absolutely no knowledge. Apart from Pikachu.

Pikachu is eternal, Pikachu outlast all of us, but that is the. That is the way that Pokemon survives. They treat every generation as a jumping off point, and that means that depending on the age of someone you talk to, they will have the generation they started with. And I think the way they survive is that, I mean, give it to the Japanese. They know how to tell a good story, right? It's a really simple story. It's there's a villain, there is you, a child out, you and your Pokemon against the world.

You got to catch them all. It's the best. It's the one of the best, I think, taglines of any games I've ever come across because it sticks. And it's like the the main mechanics of the entire game, right? Like on the game, you've got to catch all the pokemons as a card collector. You got to collect them all. That's how they've they've sort of imprinted that in all the fans. Right. You know, Jordan, Derek and I also met another collector. who has got 151 Pokemon tattoos here in Singapore.

He would know the significance of the number. Yes. Is it a Pokemon for each of the first generation Pokemon, or does it just happen to be 151? Okay, excellent. Yeah. Of course. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a kind of physical extreme. compared to the financial extreme that we've been talking about. But, you know, for viewers and listeners who might not be so into Pokemon, like, can you compare this to other collectibles? You know, I'm thinking like handbags, watches, even like crypto,

like, do you, do you have any kind of comparison? Jordan? So strangely enough, post pandemic, there is. I also used to be a collector of like Air Jordan shoes, like Nike shoes and this, this the same websites that were stocking sneakers, like StockX like these reseller websites began stocking Pokemon cards. They were treated in the exact same way. The release of Pokemon cards started to be referred to as drops, in the same way that high end streetwear was.

So yes, as you say, it is a. It has become a luxury, a luxury collectible in some sense, and later this year the Pokemon Company are going to release. their 30th anniversary cards, which include reprints of cards from all. through the generations, including the original Charizard. And when that set was announced and a lot of people were extremely excited. But there was also a reaction of, I'm not sure I'm going to be able. to get these cards outside of going to these reseller sites, because there is obviously a lot of money to be made in buying the cards.

and reselling them. But you're totally right. It is it shoes, it's handbags, it's anything like that. You know, every time we talk about Korean soft power, I'm like, but Japan still has Pokemon and Hello Kitty. But I do also wonder, you know, given because Derek was also telling me. about how some of the games have become quite, you know, a bit too similar to one another. Do you think there will be a point where Pokemon is no longer popular, Jordan, or do you think this is still going to be like a huge empire?

I think the Disney analogy is the best one to cast. Pokemon will always be around in the same way Disney will always be around. It will ebb and flow and they have timed. They time it well. They generally do the release of a new generation in. between a big anniversary so that there's there's never really. more than a year where nothing brand new is happening and the Pokemon world. So yes, while there probably will be a dip, the most significant dip was after Pokemania in the late 90s, when the second film came out and Gold and Silver came out,

there was a significant dip towards Ruby and Sapphire, and. that was because the first generation of Pokemon fans aged out of it. But now there is no room to age out Pokemon. because the Pokemon Company are always supporting either the next generation or. nostalgically supporting the generation that is quote unquote aging out. So we're locked in forever at this point, I'm afraid. It's been so great to hear your very passionate, um, insights about Pokemon and your lovely Pikachu.

So that's apparently how I look like guys. I know that's the old one. That's the old one. Thank you so much, Jordan and Derek. Happy to be here. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any thoughts or comments on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email. asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk And you know the drill,

click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time. Bye.