What Jimmy Lai's conviction says about today's Hong Kong - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Many people have said from the beginning. that Jimmy Lai's legal problems are politically motivated. They would say this was inevitable, and this is an example of how the law is being used to silence people. that spoke out against Beijing. And Jimmy Lai has been the biggest critic of Beijing for decades. through his newspaper and also through his activism. Refugee, rag trader, media tycoon, democracy activist, national security criminal.

Jimmy Lai's life in many ways tells the story of modern Hong Kong, the 78-year old's conviction for sedition and conspiring to collude with. foreign forces marks what one human rights group says is the death knell. for press freedom in the city. It was an outcome he long seemed prepared for. This is just living my life peacefully. But if I'm in jail, I'm living my life meaningfully. Why did the Chinese government view an aging billionaire.

as its top target in Hong Kong? And with all opposition parties now disbanded. and top activists either jailed, silenced or exiled, what space does China's once liberal outpost still allow for free speech? I'm Mariko in Singapore, and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you. Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have Danny Vincent,

a senior journalist for the BBC World Service who was in the court. when Jimmy Lai was found guilty. I also have Selina Cheng, who is the head. of the Hong Kong Journalists Association, joining me from Hong Kong. It's good to have you both on Asia Specific. Danny, let's start with who Jimmy Lai is. He was known as a billionaire media tycoon, but he was originally born in China, moved to Hong Kong as a child, didn't he? That's right. Many people here in Hong Kong.

see Jimmy Lai's story as the story of Hong Kong. He was born in mainland China. He smuggled himself to Hong Kong as a child. He started working in a factory. He was actually a child labourer. He worked his way up. He eventually actually owned a factory, moved into the garment industry, made a lot of money. Then in 1989, the Tiananmen Square incident, he was influenced by what he saw the democracy movement in mainland China, in Beijing and the bloody crackdown. He decided to put that industry to one side.

He sold that business. He then moved into the media, and his idea was that. by spreading information would be a way to try to pursue democracy in Hong Kong. So he's seen as somebody who became extremely wealthy. because of his business talent. He was an entrepreneur, but he decided to move away from the garment. and the clothing industry into media. And he always said that his reason for that was to try to advocate. for democracy in the city.

You met him a number of times before he was sent to jail, didn't he? That's right. I first met Jimmy Lai during the protest movement in 2019. Shortly after this, the national security law was introduced. Many people, many critics, many pro-Beijing and pro-democracy people and campaigners. They all predicted that Jimmy Lai would be. the number one target of the national security law. His newspaper, Apple Daily, was raided.

shortly after the national security law was introduced. He was arrested and paraded around the newsroom. He was then released on bail. And around this time I started interviewing him. So I met him many times in Apple Daily, his newspaper, at his home. Also outside court. He had a number of court cases. he was also going through at the time. So I spent quite a bit of time with him documenting him. There was always the expectation that he would be charged. under the national security law.

But while I spoke to him, he was out on bail. And it was quite a surreal period of time. because he was still speaking openly. He was giving interviews to the BBC and other outlets. and I was actually the last journalist to speak to him. just a few hours before he was finally detained. We have to go on to abide or uphold our values, even if this battle of ours is not going to win.

But at least you know, we uphold the spirit of freedom and human dignity. And if that prevails, we will win the war because history is on our side. The Apple Daily was one of the most critical newspapers of Hong Kong. when it comes to Beijing's grip on the city, wasn't it? You talked about his multiple court cases. Of course, he is already serving a pretty lengthy prison sentence.

So can you just remind our viewers and listeners. why he's serving time for now and what this particular verdict is for. Well, Jimmy Lai was arrested under the national security law in 2020, shortly after it was introduced. He was then charged around five years ago in December 2020. He was then detained, but he also already had other charges. He was charged with fraud. Essentially his Apple Daily business, the company.

There were allegations that the company was using a certain room. not in a legal way. He was charged for that and imprisoned for that. So that's currently why he's in prison. Many critics say that that was unfair. When I've spoken to his family members, his son, he says that a type of charge like that would usually lead to a fine. Not years in prison.

So there're many people that have said from the beginning. that Jimmy Lai's legal problems are politically motivated. They would say this was inevitable, and this is an example of. how the law is being used to silence people that spoke out against Beijing. And Jimmy Lai is perhaps the biggest critic, or has been the biggest critic of Beijing for for decades. through his newspaper and also through his activism. When my father came, you know, went to prison, he was a 72-year old, not young,

but in relative good health. And from all the reports that I've received, his health has deteriorated massively. This year alone, he's lost ten kilos. There're reports of him losing his nails, just peeling off, and his teeth are rotting and his muscles are getting infected. It's incredibly heartbreaking. And given the situation that he's in, solitary confinement in a little cell with the window blocked off.

with obviously no air conditioning, and Hong Kong goes up to you know, 30, 30 to 40 degrees. You saw him in the court? I mean, the rest of us haven't seen his pictures for several years now. The last picture that I remember vividly is of him in handcuffs and metal chains. How did he look in the court? Do we know how he's holding up? For me, he looks much thinner than the last time I saw him as a free man.

He looks, he looks older. But during this trial, we also know that he took to the stand, and he spoke and he defended himself. He certainly was in strong spirits. in terms of when he was, when he was speaking and, making arguments against the, the authorities. And in many ways, he was still repeating the type. of, campaigning and advocacy that he was famous for when he was free. Of course, he's been in prison for five years,

he's just turned 78,and we know that, we don't know how long he'll be sentenced for. But under the national security law, it's possible that he'll face the rest of his life in prison. And Selina, as someone who worked in the city for many years, when you first joined the industry, what was your impression of him? How was he viewed by local journalists as well as the general public? When I first joined the industry, was around 2014,

and by then Hong Kong's political turmoil had already emerged. because there was a massive protest that year, the first one in many, many decades in Hong Kong. And I think it was during that time I was helping. a French television channel do an interview with Jimmy Lai. And so I met him very briefly during that occasion. The impression that he had with people in Hong Kong was. that he has always been a media mogul. Of course, he's been a very, very vocal critic of Beijing.

However, he has always rooted himself in Hong Kong and wanted to, you know, use his platform to strive for human rights and democracy. for people in Hong Kong. He is also seen as a rather ruthless businessman. There were things that he would have his newspaper do. in terms of the competition, driving the competition, getting the story,

and that actually got the Apple Daily newspaper into some hairy moments. in the past and was accused of some ethical violations. So, many people admired him, but also, he had his critics. in the city for doing, you know, sensationalist journalism, just as they did very hard-hitting investigations, holding power to account in Hong Kong. So he has always been somewhat of a controversial figure.

But that image changed, after 2014 because the paper became a lot more activist. in terms of the extradition, the 2019 protests. and the extradition treaty that Hong Kong was going to pass. And a lot of people agreed with what he championed. And he became a lot more popular in 2019 compared to. in previous years, I'd say.

After the verdict, human rights group Amnesty described his conviction. as the death knell for press freedom in Hong Kong. China's national security office in the city. said it strongly condemned the political manipulation of Hong Kong. by a small number of Western politicians and what it calls anti-China media, and said Jimmy Lai is a pawn of external anti-China forces. Jimmy Lai has long used his media outlet Apple Daily. to deliberately create social conflicts, incite division and hatred.

within the community, glorify violence, and openly call for foreign sanctions. against the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, Thereby inviting external interference. His actions have harmed the fundamental interests of the nation and. the well-being of Hong Kong citizens. His conduct is shameful and his intentions are malicious. Of course, Jimmy Lai joins many other pro-democracy activists. who've been jailed under the national security law.

Selina, you've covered many of their cases, and I read one of your pieces where you talked about the impact. of those cases on the remaining journalists in the city, how they became more careful. They started avoiding maybe covering politics. and started doing more kind of lifestyle entertainment stories. What do you think the impact of this verdict. on other journalists in the city? What this case meant for journalists started five years ago.

when the newspaper was shut down. That was tangible, a tangible impact, a tangible negative impact on the media scene here. The newspaper had to shut. All of its frozen, assets were frozen. When the rest of the six to seven media executives. and high level editors were arrested and the newspaper, literally could not function. Hundreds of people lost their jobs. They turned to other things.

And it had great psychological impact, not just on the journalists, but also on people of Hong Kong. There were scenes of grief and mourning outside of the newspaper building. Hundreds of people gathered in front of the Apple Daily headquarters. to mourn the end of this paper. So, that already happened five years ago. So, whatever came of this verdict already, you know, this already rolled out, already became a part of reality.

for reporters here. As the the head of the Hong Kong Journalists Association, you released a statement about this verdict, but also interestingly, you know, you talked about the impact on press freedom from five years ago, and I noticed that the Press Freedom Index. that you guys just published actually improved slightly this year. Do you think this verdict will have an impact on that ranking? The situation has stabilised.

The Press Freedom Index hovers around a low point. Most of reporters in the Hong Kong media, they're not as afraid. of arrest and detention as it was in 2020 and 2021 when the raids happened. But the situation didn't tangibly improve either. So we'll have to observe for the next press freedom index. and see what people think would be the impact of this case. on their operating environment.

I know this is a rather sensitive topic, but to both of you, how have things changed since you started working. as a journalist in Hong Kong? Danny. So I moved here in 2017, and at that time there was a huge difference between what it was. like reporting in the mainland and reporting in Hong Kong. Protests were so common almost on every Sunday. there would be small protests in central shopping areas, and sometimes they were so common.

that people wouldn't even really pay attention to them. But I think what happened when the national security law was introduced, I think we saw a rapid transformation of the city. As a journalist, I think the city turned from the type. of place where there was open protests and people would speak openly, and you could interview people and you could investigate many issues. It changed quite rapidly. And you found that people were quite afraid to speak to foreign media. People would speak anonymously or even not want to give interviews.

A large number of people who have left Hong Kong. since the introduction of the national security law, I've done a lot of reporting on people that have left. They've gone to the UK, to Canada, to America, to Australia, to the US and even some people that I interviewed, that were not leaving for what I consider political reasons. They'd also be very nervous about speaking to the media. about about how they felt. So I think in terms of in that sense,

the city feels like it's transformed significantly. Foreign media, even though a lot of them still have reporters in Hong Kong, a couple of them have decided to move the bulk of their newsroom operations. to other regions, including to South Korea and to Singapore, to reduce that kind of potential risk or liability. of being in the city. But also, you know, when I was at the Wall Street Journal just two years ago,

when we discussed stories, people would sometimes get visibly uncomfortable and. would also press for you know, extra solid sourcing or information, explicitly because they were expecting government condemnation. The long arm of the Hong Kong national security law. reaches beyond its territory. It explicitly says it should apply to anywhere outside of its jurisdiction,

so it does change how people react to things they will have to think through. You know, if I publish something and then the government condemns it, does that mean I'm at risk of arrest if I fly to Hong Kong. or if I transit through the airport here? We're talking a lot about the impact on journalists, but what about other ordinary citizens in Hong Kong? What's your sense? Are they okay?

Are they getting used to this idea of more restricted press where, you know, opposition voices might not be heard as widely as we used to? Danny. When I've tried to interview people, there are sometimes people that are, in my opinion, not politically active at all and not discussing even politics, but they often are concerned. that something they might say, especially to international media,

might be interpreted as colluding with foreigners. So it does feel that there's been a transformation here. There is, of course, the other side of the argument as well. Some people in the business community, for example, they recognise or they at least make the point. that the national security law, they say, has put an end to the protests. The protests were were volatile. It was a cycle of violence. In 2019, much of the city was disrupted and intentionally so.

There are people that say that it's brought about stability. and they welcome the stability. There are also people, of course, in the city that are truly and genuinely not politically active. and may not be paying attention to all of the changes. I think the general feeling about that in the city is quite well-reflected. in one of BBC's own reports, where they interviewed ordinary people.

on the street, kind of man-in-the-street story. Many of the interviewees just simply refused to say anything. or they gave, you know, ambiguous answers. Visibly uncomfortable with reporters from the BBC asking them such questions. Of course, you two will continue to cover the situation, as well as Jimmy Lai's case, as he finds out what sentencing he'll face in the New Year. Danny and Selina, thank you so much for joining me on Asia Specific, and thank you for watching this episode of Asia Specific.

from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi. If you have any comments on this episode that we've just covered. or any other stories from the region, do leave a comment below. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. But for now, thank you so much for watching and see you next time!