The pressure to be thin in Asia - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Remember when body positivity was the buzzword? The Western fashion industry was less obsessed with thinness as. more plus sized models commanded the catwalks. Now, some say the fashion world has done a 180 degree turn. But was Asia ever on board with body positivity? And has the widespread use of weight loss drugs. normalised thinness beyond the catwalk? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service.

Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have Rachel Lee from our Asia Specific podcast team. And I also have Jenny Dorsey. She's a chef and also a food researcher. Thank you for joining me on Asia Specific. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. So I think it's important to emphasise, firstly that this obsession. with thinness, it is not specific to this part of the world. It is a global issue. But I grew up in Japan,

but then I moved to Australia, lived in other countries like the UK and the US, and I personally definitely noticed a difference. in what's considered to be skinny, normal and fat. So for example, I'm 154 cm, which is I think five feet. So I grew up thinking I need to be about 40 kg. And then I moved to Australia, gained about 15kg. I was like 55kg after falling in love with like sausage rolls and meat pies.

and chocolate biscuits and stuff. And I felt so fat. And yet everyone in Australia was like, "oh, that's normal, you were just too skinny.". So firstly, Rachel, what's been your experience growing up in South Korea, which I think would probably share similar perception of thinness as Japan. Totally, totally. I mean, in South Korea, you get a sense that weight is more than just health. It's just more about beauty, right? So I've seen this ideal body weight chart.

And this is just different from the regular, like average healthy weight chart. So if you look at this ideal weight chart, the numbers are quite different from West and Asia. You can easily come across these charts on social media. You just screenshot it, share it with your friends and family casually. But if you, as I said, like if you look into the numbers, they're extremely low. So the average height of East Asian woman is considered to be 162cm.

So that's about five feet four. But according to this chart, the ideal weight is about 48kg. So to some people that might seem quite impossible. And this could actually push to a really unhealthy extreme diet. So what would be the the Western ideal weight for that 162cm? From what I saw, it was around 56kg,

so it was around like ten kilograms difference. Also, if you just look at how people are easily commenting. on each other's body, people's weight, and you just casually give them fashion tips like whether you are. upper body fat and lower body fat, you want to avoid wearing tight jeans or short skirts. or, you know, stuff like that. You just feel like your body is something. that needs to be constantly corrected. And the fact that people are mentioning about your body,

you just naturally get really self-conscious. I actually saw that Asian version of the chart. I need to be 38kg. After three children, there's no way. I'll be dead. Oh my God. Where would you be? I wouldn't even be able to see you. You'd be so small. And Jenny, you grew up in the US and you moved to Asia a couple of years ago. Did you notice the kind of difference between the US and here? Certainly, I think in the US,

there's definitely a pressure to have low weight for women as well. But I think there's also balancing. the weight demands with the kind of aesthetic demands, which is a lot of exaggerated proportions a la Kim Kardashian. You're supposed to be very thin, but you're also supposed to have. the really big butt and the really big breasts and, you know, growing up somewhat curvy as an Asian woman, it was impossible to find not just my size of clothing, but a place where my body could be accepted. Because in Asian spaces, so, you know, going to potlucks with my aunties and uncles, it's always,

I'm too big. But then in more Western American circles, it's always, "well, you're so skinny, like, why don't you have bigger curves?". So you're just constantly navigating this like you don't fit anywhere. Everyone's always trying to correct your body or make you look different. And I guess in Asia, it's fair to say people tend to be naturally skinnier. And when you're surrounded by people like that, if you're slightly bigger at school or whatever, I guess it can become a cause of bullying to unnecessary comments.

And Rachel, why do you think this kind of obsession to be thin, why do you think it's more intense in Asia? Well, I think it has to do with something that I've just talked. about people commenting on each other's looks, body weight. And the fact that people are evaluating you. You start to evaluate yourself as well. And not to mention that in Asia, thinness is perceived, that you're well disciplined or well self-controlled.

And this also reflects really well in job market as well. So in your professional life, let's say you want to get a job in a job market in Asia. Especially if it's a consumer facing roles or some kind. of a job that requires you to wear uniform, weight really matters. And I've seen a lot of my friends who wanted to become a flight attendant, and they keep going on this extreme diet before interview. because the applicants are asked to line up and just visually be compared. And, you know, the fear is not being rejected,

but it's more about standing out and standing out physically. in Asia is definitely a disadvantage. That still happens? That still happens, unfortunately. So I spoke to Park I-seul. She's one of the earliest body positivity influencer in South Korea. and the first, very first regular size model. My size is actually one of the most common sizes in Korea, but I feel media only celebrates bodies that are extremely thin.

Those bodies are portrayed as successful aspirational role models, so we grow up thinking those bodies represent a good life, while our own bodies are ordinary, flawed, and something that needs fixing. That belief becomes deeply ingrained from a young age, creating a subconscious sense that our bodies are. an unfinished assignment in life. During my school years, I used to think my real life will begin only after I lose weight. The more obsessed I became, the less I ate. Eventually, I developed an eating disorder,

and after that I stopped meeting people and became socially withdrawn. I think this problem is deeply tied to the social roles imposed on women. in East Asian societies expectations of being passive, delicate and protected. From a young age, women receive constant appearance based evaluations. It's a very personal story that she was sharing there her experience of an eating disorder. I have to say, I had it when I was 16, 17, when I gained all that weight in Australia, and I think because I didn't speak English, I felt like.

the only thing I could control was the amount of calories I consumed. And, you know, every morning you weigh yourself and. you can see the results very quickly. So, Jenny, you are a chef and it feels like, you know, when someone has an eating disorder, like I don't think I have it anymore, but when I feel really stressed, it still feels like it comes back. to my head that, okay, let's just try and lose weight. Let's just starve yourself and feel good about yourself, and then you end up eating because you tell yourself.

that no, no, no, that's not healthy. And then you get that real sense of guilt that you ate too much. Asian culture is about food. You know, you were on our episode talking about how much we love food, and yet there's this kind of darker relationship that we have. with food as well. Yeah. I mean, so much to unpack here. I think what I mean, personally, I really struggled because I also had. an eating disorder that went through part of my time in culinary school. So on one hand, I was starving myself, and then on the other hand, I was binge eating.

while I was cooking because I wanted both, you know? But I didn't know how to get my body to look the way I wanted while also eating. And, you know, food is neutral. The food that we eat, the food that we look at, the food that we comment on. There's there's no morality inherent to food, but we imbue it with such. Because I think in Asia, there's so much, it's a high context culture for the most part. A lot of Asian societies, when you see someone look a certain way, then there's also an assumption of how they eat and. how they eat becomes a reflection of who they are, so yeah.

When I had the problem, there wasn't social media. There was no TikTok where I think they had to actually ban what's known. as hashtag Skinnytok, where people were basically telling young girls. and boys probably how to starve yourself, how to lose weight. And there's still this trend of what is it called? Pro-anorexia, pro-ana, that's really quite still popular online. And Rachel, why do you think this kind.

of concepts resonate so much with young people? Maybe not just in Asia, but particularly in this part of the world? Pro-ana. I was genuinely shocked. It basically glorifies eating disorder. It glorifies this extreme diet. And what's dangerous about this is that sometimes pro-ana is disguised. as tips or like motivations. And with, you know, teenagers whose identity. or self-esteem hasn't been formed.

It's really dangerous, you know, like it could result. in depression, anxiety, eating disorder, and like serious long term health issues as well. And I think I've seen a lot of discussions going on about this pro-ana. And the reason why these kind of contents resonate with young people. is because it taps on a long standing social pressure of thinness. You know, for example, being thin equals being beautiful, you know, being admirable. K-pop stars are now global, as we discussed on this podcast, quite a lot.

They are, I don't want to say extremely thin, but they are very, very skinny. Naturally, you're or with efforts. What kind of pressure do you think they are under to keep that appearance. that they've got? Oh my gosh. The pressure on K-pop stars is is extreme and it's very well known. I mean, a lot of celebrities or K-pop stars, they've been sharing their stories on camera, on their social media, and especially during their trainee period,

because weight really determines whether you can make it to debut or not, right? And some of the stories that they've been sharing include something. like taking medication to empty their stomach before weigh ins and, you know, hiding their snacks because. their agency will make a big deal out of it, they will harshly react on it. And not to mention about eating disorder. I mean, it's really common. among K-pop stars to experience those kind of eating disorders. And I think the terrible part is that this doesn't stay within the industry.

Younger fans who idolize these celebrities. are also consuming this, right? So there's this thing called idol diet. The trendiest one that I can think of is water fasting. So it's basically you're consuming water and salt. to lose weight in a very short period of time. And it sounds really extreme. It sounds very dangerous. But because a lot of celebrities are sharing their stories, that how effective this this is, this became really popular.

among teenagers in South Korea. And if that becomes a beauty standard. in K-pop industry, that means the younger generation, the younger fans are also going to chase for that. They're going to pursue that as the beauty standard, which is a huge problem. I wonder the role of weight loss drugs that plays, because I've noticed their popularity surging everywhere, not just in Asia but in the West as well. And I've also noticed that in countries where obesity rate isn't that high,

like South Korea or Japan, still people are actually taking those drugs. not because they need to medically, but just to to lose weight. I mean, I wonder whether those drugs actually played a role in this kind. of backtracking of having more plus size models in the West. because it's actually become easier to lose weight. What do you think, Jenny? I mean, I think this whole idea that thinness is. about beauty is something that's sold to us.

But really thinness is about control. Whether it's attractive or not doesn't matter. It's about this idea of like you, you have to control your body. in order for you to be socially accepted by kind of this. The larger social narrative of where women fit in the world. and weight loss drugs have been kind of the latest way you can gain access. to that form of control, and you have to pay for it. Now you can if you have the money and you have the financial means, then there's no reason why you would be fat.

There's kind of this very immediate social feedback. that you're getting by just by looking at someone's body. is if you're a certain gender, then you need to be a certain size. And if you're not, that means. I have all these ideas about perhaps the way you eat the drugs that you have. access to, your financial position, all of that in like a split second. Do you think when the fashion industry was going, all body positivity, plus size models and so on. I think Rachel and I were talking earlier. that Asia didn't really, you know, get on board.

with it because a lot of the models are naturally skinny. The reason why it didn't go like a mainstream was also because, you know, thinness sells really, really well in Asia. And I saw this really interesting survey that was conducted in Japan. And Japan has the highest rate of underweight young women. And 70% of women in their 20s and 30s. responded in this survey that they have. they're not willing to change their eating habits, which means. they're satisfied with their underweight body.

And I think this explains a lot about why thinness sells so well in Asia. I want to talk about health because. obviously being ultra thin is not healthy. But at the same time, Asia has some. of the highest percentage of people who are underweight low weight, and yet their body fat rate is actually high. And also muscle mass is really low. So I think that's what's called skinny fat. I think this shows the reality of Asia's diet.

So you're obsessed with the numbers in scale, but you don't really care about your health overall health. And studies show that these kind of patterns are really often seen. in Asian societies where, as I said, all these long standing pressure. on thinness combined with unhealthy diet habits. There's this book that I've been reading recently called The Tyranny of Metrics, and it talks about how in this metric obsessed world, we often equate the idea. of what is easily measurable is what we should be measuring,

and as actually the best thing to be measuring. So as you were saying, it's easy to measure measure things. like BMI, your weight, body fat, you know, there's these kind of these charts that we use, but it's actually not giving us any real insight as to whether we're healthy, whether we're taking care of our bodies, if we're getting the nutrients we need. because those things are so difficult to measure. We've kind of tossed them to the side, and we've opted for a much easier kind of like visual optics, I guess.

It's a it's an ongoing debate, though, isn't it? Thank you so much for sharing your insights, Rachel and Jenny. Thank you for having me. Thanks for having me. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have concerns about anything you have heard in this programme, you could speak to a health professional or an organisation that offers support. And click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.