The plan to expand Japan’s imperial family - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

For decades, Japan's imperial family has been shrinking. and now the government there wants to do something about it. But Mayu, the government's proposal is causing quite a bit of a backlash. That's right, Mariko. One idea on the table is to let. male descendants from former Imperial branches rejoin the family. But many people in Japan think there's a much simpler way, which is to allow women to stay in the imperial family. and eventually allow them to become female emperors. So we're talking about Princess Aiko, who's the daughter.

of the current emperor and empress, aren't we? So we're asking, why are Japanese politicians so adamant. not to allow her to take the throne? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best. I have two journalists in the Japanese capital. who have covered this topic extensively for many years.

Mayu Yoshida was a correspondent for Reuters as well as NHK world. She is now a host at Japanese radio station J-WAVE. Welcome to Asia Specific, Mayu. Hi, Mariko. Thanks for having me. I also have David McNeill. He's a professor of communications at the University of Sacred Heart. He's also worked as a journalist in Japan since 2000. for various publications, including The Economist and The Independent.

Thank you so much for coming on the pod, David. Thanks for having me. So the three of us have covered this topic quite extensively. But before we go into the details, Mayu, can you just explain. why Japan's imperial family, which is the world's longest hereditary monarchy? It's been shrinking for many years, hasn't it? So can you just explain why that is? Sure. That's right. Mariko. Japan's imperial family is said to have over 2000 years of history. And that's facing a serious succession crisis,

and one idea on the table to keep this family going is to let. male descendants from former Imperial branches rejoin the family. But this is super controversial. Can you explain, though, because there's a law, isn't there, in Japan that determines who can be part of the family. So if you can just explain to our audience what that law states. Sure. Well, Japan's current imperial House law only allows male emperors. Now this law is actually relatively new.

It was created in 1947 after the World War Two. So where did the rule banning female emperors come from? Well, it goes back to the old imperial law created about 130 years ago. What's interesting is that during the drafting process, officials were about to give green light allowing. female emperors succeed their fathers if they don't have a son. Because in Japan, because, in fact, Japan did have female emperors. in the past who succeeded their fathers.

However, one influential scholar, high ranking government official he strongly opposed to this idea, and his stance helped shape the line we still see today, which is. that the throne should only pass to male descendants in the male line. So, in other words, the rule is not as ancient as the monarchy itself, and that's why it remains so contested today. Yeah. It is such a controversial issue, isn't it? And David, can you just paint the picture.

of how the Japanese public view the Japanese imperial family? Uh, well, I mean, in general, there's a lot of support. Um, you know, or at least there's very little opposition. Most polls, when they are taken and they're not very often, uh, find opposition. You know, people who say like the imperial family. should be abolished that very low, like three to 7%, something like that. And if you contrast that with the British royal family, there have been polls saying nearly 50% of the British public. want to abolish at certain times want to abolish the royal family.

Um, but I think the, the sort of, um, interesting feature. of the Japanese imperial family is that a lot of people are disinterested. I would say they're mukanshin, in Japanese, you know, you don't see the kind of passionate, you know, they don't... only older people in Japan tend to be really passionate. in my experience about the Imperial family. Uh, younger people tend to sort of acknowledge their existence, but little really more than that, you know,

you won't see them going out and waving flags like my students, for example, when I asked them, do you know the name of the current emperor. or do you know the name of, uh, you know, the emperor's brother? They often don't know. This issue of whether or not to allow a woman to become an emperor. It's nothing new, is it? It's been going on for many, many decades. And Empress Masako, when she married the current emperor, there was enormous pressure for her to produce a male heir. And then Princess Aiko was born. Miyu, if you can just explain or introduce Princess Aiko.

to maybe our viewers and listeners who are listening to us outside of Japan. Sure. Well, Princess. Aiko is the 24 year old daughter of the Emperor and the Empress. Um, she's working for the Japanese Red Cross in Tokyo, and local media are praising her for her high communication skills recently, whether it be a foreign official or a local resident. But I do remember the day when she was born.

I was a child and I was watching TV, and when Empress, the current Empress, um, walked out of the hospital with the baby in her arms. and it was a baby girl, I could kind of feel the celebratory mood as well, but also some sort of disappointment from TV commentators. because the royal baby was a girl and not a boy. And David, you were covering the story quite extensively when.

at the time politicians started discussing revising that law to allow. a woman, basically Princess Aiko, to maybe one day become an empress. But then the current emperor's younger brother had a baby boy, I think, in 2006, Prince Hisahito. And then that discussion seems to have completely stopped. So can you just explain what happened then? Sure. Um, well, there was a very serious debate at the time. It was started by Junichiro Koizumi, the kind of rock. and roll, uh, Prime Minister, do you remember him?

He had the Elvis hairstyle and so on. And he was the reformer. Uh, and he, uh, treated this issue very seriously. And he had, he had a mandate to do it as well, a political mandate. He was very popular. And the public support at the time was very high. I remember at the start when this debate started, it was over 80% for the of the idea for a female emperor. Uh, But conservatives, as I said, came out very strongly against it. But even mainstream politicians at the time, you know,

ex Prime Minister Nakasone and so on, came out very strongly against this. And I remember that the liberal media, even the Asahi. and so on, began to have kind of second doubts. Public support began to decline. It was down to around from my memory, 60%, something like that. And then you had this magic baby, which seemed to come out. of nowhere, uh, from Princess Keiko. That's, um, Hisahito, Prince Hisahito. Uh, he arrived and the whole debate was just shelved, and that was the end of it until now.

But this time around, earlier this year, Japanese politicians started talking. about the revised the revision of this law, partly because not just about having a male heir, but also because the family is running out of family members. to carry out those royal duties. And we are showing a family tree. For those of you listening. There are now 16 family members left. That's less than half the number 50 years ago. So maybe you touched upon it earlier, but can you just explain, aside.

from allowing female members to keep their royal status after marriage, what are the proposed changes that the politicians are making? Sure. Well, there's an idea. of letting a former Imperial branches, male descendants. from former Imperial branches, return to the Imperial family. But that is actually getting pushback because it just feels contradictory. Because in the past, the ruling LDP, the Liberal Democratic Party,

the same party now pushing this idea, opposed to it, arguing that it could actually complicate. the so-called, quote, purity of the imperial line. It's just like, you know, the party seems to revisit an idea that it once rejected, and as long as it just avoids allowing female emperors. David, can you explain who they are? Those former. It's such a tongue twister. Former male descendants of a royal Royal branches that were, I guess,

removed from the Imperial Family household after the Second World War. Well, it's a fascinating story. You know how the US occupation kind of violently pruned, uh, the the imperial tree, the family tree, uh, and a lot of these people, um, there was 11 branches of the tree. and about 26 people who were in line to the throne at the time, and they were all basically reduced to commoner status.

Uh, there was an interview in the Asahi, uh, actually today or yesterday. One of them was called Asahiko Kuni. Uh, and he's the cousin of Emperor Akihito, who's the, uh, the last emperor. Of course, he was 18th in line to the throne, uh, when he was, uh, when he was removed from the imperial line. and he became an engineer in Hitachi. So like almost a salaryman, you know, kind of a fascinating story, almost like Puyi in China, you know, the last emperor who became a gardener except on a family scale.

Uh, and, and of course, now, because they've had these ordinary lives. and their children have had these ordinary lives. and their children's children, you know, the grandchildren, they're most of them are quite reluctant to, to kind of, um, to embrace what this life might mean. for them to come back into the imperial family, uh, because it's considered quite a restricted life, quite a difficult life. I mean, I've been inside the Imperial Palace and I was told to not walk. in the center of the carpet because only His Majesty the Emperor can walk there.

So even, uh, you know, female members of staff all have to walk along the wall. There's like lots and lots of rules like that. So this is the dilemma. I think, uh, one of the dilemmas. for the people who are trying to reform this institution, this remarkable institution, which has been there for so long, you know, um, is how do they persuade people. who've been out of it for so long to come back in? Yeah. But also this discussion of whether to revise this law was. about increasing the number of family members to carry out duties,

and then a senior government official or chief secretary, Chief Cabinet Secretary Minoru Kihara. He said that those adopted, if those adopted male descendants have a son, that child would have the right to become an emperor. And that seems to have triggered quite a lot of angry reaction. I've noticed all the major newspapers publishing. opinion pieces against this proposal. Might you can you just explain why you think this proposal has caused such a,

I guess, unusual reaction? Well, first of all, the public. Is hugely in line with the idea of allowing female emperors. So that's why all we're seeing, all these angry reactions. And second of all, there's so many question marks regarding this, you know, so-called revision of this law. And may you in this ongoing debate, discussion about the this revision of this law, there was another comment. by a senior ruling party member, which triggered quite a lot of angry reaction,

referring to Princess Aiko. Can you just elaborate on how that happened and what's been the reaction? Right. So Hirofumi Nakasone, he is a senior lawmaker in the ruling LDP. Now, he said that it would be impossible. for Princess Aiko to ever become emperor, and that no one would want to marry her if she did. Now, first of all, um, we're seeing huge public backlash.

And because we're talking about the Emperor's daughter here, the emperor is someone who is deeply respected. and has always remained close to the people. And also, um, Nakasone made comments about the sex of her future baby. and that's just, you know, if she becomes emperor and. that's just, you know, um, way over the line. Um, but if there is a positive takeaway from this, um, reaction that is.

that these sexist comments are used to pass almost unnoticed. It was never picked up by media, but now they are becoming headlines and triggering public backlash. So, um, that may not be enough, but it's still a huge step forward on improving gender issues. and the status of women in Japan. Do you think, though, David, given the ruling party having that supermajority, more than two thirds of the lower house of Parliament, no matter the backlash, no matter how angry those comments have been,

and even the Imperial Household Agency, um, obviously they're not officially allowed to comment on this matter. And I contacted them and they wouldn't, you know, say yes or no, but there were leaked comments that they were caught off guard. and that they feel frustrated, especially about the adoption. of former, um, royal members being adopted into the family. Um, but do you think given the supermajority that the government has,

they're going to push through this revision regardless? Um, I don't like to predict things. Um, I think that something, something will be cobbled together, let's put it that way. I mean, a lot of people, uh, outside Japan talk about, um, the, uh, you know, the extinction of the Japanese imperial family. Uh, they talk in quite apocalyptic terms. You know, I, I think that because this institution is so central. to so many aspects of Japanese life, if it's not central to ordinary lives,

but it is central to the institutions in Japan, the institutions of power, and you see all the connections to politicians and so on. I just don't think it will be allowed to, to, to, uh, to die off. I think they will do something now. What do you think about the chances of this revision of the law passing Parliament? Because I think for the first time in my life, I think, you know, as David said, there was very kind of anti there was. very little anti-imperial family movement in Japan.

But for the first time in my life, I was seeing comments like, oh, if a commoner's son could become an emperor, we may as well just abolish this system. Do you think the Takaichi administration is going to push through? Um, I mean, like, this is Japan. You're talking about. Um, maybe in places like, I don't know, Singapore or Hong Kong, laws can sometimes change very quickly. Um, but, um, debates over sensitive issues in Japan can take decades. And especially if it's a topic about the emperor.

because it's somewhat considered, um, you know, sacred as well. So yes, the proposal may inch forward for a change, but it's not as simple as it is. So I guess the big question for our audience to take away is, is this debate about how to maintain tradition. of the family in this modern era? Or as you alluded to it, is this about sexism in the Japanese society?

Because those comments that those politicians have made. have severely criticized as being sexist. I want both of opinions. But shall we start with you, David? Well, no, I think it's always been about that. I mean, even the whole idea, sorry. It's always been a. it's always touched on issues of gender and sexism and so on. Um, and, you know, there's lots of discussions for having a female emperor, but to me, at least one of the key arguments for it would be, uh, that it would be a symbol for Japanese women, somebody, uh,

who to look up to possibly and to respect. Um, always. The debate has been tugged back, as my, you says, by conservatives. into this whole idea of, uh, reproduction. You know, wombs for hire to use it as crude as it is this term. Uh, the purity of the imperial bloodline. It's very hard to talk about those things without sort of acknowledging, uh, some of the, the, uh, sexism and the prejudice. and so on that lies buried beneath all those arguments.

So I think that's kind of key. Yeah. To me, it's key. And I think that's why there's so much controversy at the moment. One of the reasons why there's so much controversy about this discussion, because as Mayu says, 20 years ago, there wasn't as much kickback as there is now. But now you have lots of women rightly, you know, like Mayu, like yourself, Mariko, in the media who have a who have a say. Right. And they should have a say, you know, like it's 20 years ago. when this debate was, was, uh, was really, um, you know, kicking off,

there were very few women in the media who had an opinion or could have an opinion. And I think that's a, that's a change for the better, in my opinion. Yeah. Following up on David, um, and answering your question, Mariko, if it's a debate about maintaining tradition, or is it about sexist? And I think the answer is both as well. Of course, this is about how to preserve the imperial family in the modern world, but it is also about who gets to define tradition.

and who pays the price for preserving it. It's such a complicated topic. So I really appreciate you sharing your insights and explaining them, Mayu and David. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having us. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below.

You can also get in touch with us on email asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.